Oldest to newest Camino routes

[sjdaotearoa]

Hola peregrinos. My first camino last year was the Primitivo. Next year I'm doing the Norte. By chance these are the oldest and second oldest Camino's. I thought it might be interesting to plot my next Camino's by age - from oldest to newest routes. Does anyone know anything about this, or where I might find info on it? Thanks in advance, Sara

 

[Kathor1]

My first camino last year was the Primitivo. Next year I'm doing the Norte. By chance these are the oldest and second oldest Camino's. I thought it might be interesting to plot my next Camino's by age - from oldest to newest routes. Does anyone know anything about this, or where I might find info on it?

I would not be in the least surprised if someone has constructed such a classification. However, you will have to decide how to measure the "age" of a "Camino" in a way that makes sense.

If you understand by age the physical age of a road, ie when it was constructed or used for the first time: what we understand by today's "Caminos" are roads that were used in the Middle Ages when the pilgrimage to Santiago was a big deal. These roads were essentially Roman roads that were left over from the Roman empire that had ceased to exist many centuries earlier. Hence they all have approximately the same age: about 2000 years, give or take a few. That includes the set of roads known to today's camino walkers as Norte, Primitivo, Frances.

If you understand by age the time when pilgrims to Santiago started to use these roads, in addition to all the other travellers, you could try to figure out which historically known person used a particular road for the first time for a pilgrimage to Santiago or else you could try to figure out which particular road was used by the majority of pilgrims to Santiago during a certain period of time or by a significant number of pilgrims during a certain period of time. That would give you the Primitivo, otherwise known as the road from Oviedo, as the "oldest Camino" and you could try to rank the other modern Camino trails with the help of a map that shows the progress of the Reconquista over the course of some 800 years, from the 700s until around 1500.

 

[Kathor1]

Here's a question: what makes a road a pilgrimage road, what makes a camino a Camino? I tend to think that there is actually only one Pilgrimage Road and that is the Camino Frances. Its development in the Middle Ages was driven by the pilgrimage to Santiago; it has towns and villages that have "del Camino" in their name; houses and other buildings appeared along the road to cater for pilgrims so that we have these long stretched out towns or villages so typical for the Camino Frances; bridges were built for the pilgrimage traffic; numerous hostals-hospitals were built for the transient pilgrimage population. Other roads to Santiago catered also for pilgrims but never to the same extent as the Camino Frances. Their primary function was the same as any other road: they were trade roads and communication roads between towns.

The owners of today's Caminos, namely the various Spanish regions and towns, are vying for the contemporary pilgrimage traffic. They are trying to sell the narrative of their Camino(s) as best as they can. I guess "age" is a unique selling point for some but not all of them. ☺

 

[sjdaotearoa]

Thanks Kathar1na. You make excellent points and I've enjoyed reading them all You clearly know a lot about this. I guess I have plenty of time to read and think about it at a rate of one Camino every 2 years. Buen Camino.

 

[AlwynWellington]

I thought it might be interesting to plot my next Camino's by age - from oldest to newest routes.

@sjdaotearoa , kia ora (greetings, good health)

As today, pilgrimages started from your home, first to your parish church for a blessing and then on to your destination. And hopefully to return, in one piece.

So pilgrimage routes exist all over Europe.

One that has a reasonably well documented origin is that from Le Puy-en-Velay (about two hours by train from Lyon) is south central France. Check out Bishop Godelasco (and Podiensis).

This is about 750 km to Saint-Jean. While I did it in one session in April I encountered many walking for one or two weeks as part of their annual leave and coming back each year until finished.

Kia kaha (take care, be strong, get going)

 

[sjdaotearoa]

@sjdaotearoa , kia ora (greetings, good health)

As today, pilgrimages started from your home, first to your parish church for a blessing and then on to your destination. And hopefully to return, in one piece.

So pilgrimage routes exist all over Europe.

One that has a reasonably well documented origin is that from Le Puy-en-Velay (about two hours by train from Lyon) is south central France. Check out Bishop Godelasco (and Podiensis).

This is about 750 km to Saint-Jean. While I did it in one session in April I encountered many walking for one or two weeks as part of their annual leave and coming back each year until finished.

Kia kaha (take care, be strong, get going)

Kia ora thank you Alwyn Aaaah to be able to go and walk in one or two week blocks of A/L after catching a 2hr 60euro Ryan Air flight at the drop of a hat! I like the idea of Le Puy/Frances - looks ancient and gorgeous - and worth the 24 hour flight to get there Te huarahi pai

 

[AlwynWellington]

and worth the 24 hour flight to get there

You're lucky. For me it is usually 30 hours to London, then more to my start point.

In 2016 I flew Wellington - Charles de Gaulle, then fast train to Lyon. After two nights a TER train to Le Puy. Then two nights so as to look around before starting after the 07h Mass and stamp for the credential.

 

[Camgal]

Here's a question: what makes a road a pilgrimage road, what makes a camino a Camino? I tend to think that there is actually only one Pilgrimage Road and that is the Camino Frances. Its development in the Middle Ages was driven by the pilgrimage to Santiago; it has towns and villages that have "del Camino" in their name; houses and other buildings appeared along the road to cater for pilgrims so that we have these long stretched out towns or villages so typical for the Camino Frances; bridges were built for the pilgrimage traffic; numerous hostals-hospitals were built for the transient pilgrimage population. Other roads to Santiago catered also for pilgrims but never to the same extent as the Camino Frances. Their primary function was the same as any other road: they were trade roads and communication roads between towns.

The owners of today's Caminos, namely the various Spanish regions and towns, are vying for the contemporary pilgrimage traffic. They are trying to sell the narrative of their Camino(s) as best as they can. I guess "age" is a unique selling point for some but not all of them. ☺

Yes, I had the pleasure of running into two officials from the local municapal in Sarria because I got lost suddenly when a huge dog appeared from nowhere and kept following me and I am not a dog whisperar. I lost track. I asked one of them for directions after walking 4 kms and explained where I got lost. They admitted that one could get easily lost in that area. I hope they will clearly signpost that area. They were aware of the income we perringos bring to the area.

 

[Pelegrin]

That would give you the Primitivo, otherwise known as the road from Oviedo, as the "oldest Camino" and you could try to rank the other modern Camino trails with the help of a map that shows the progress of the Reconquista over the course of some 800 years, from the 700s until around 1500.

Yes, we assume that for the Mozárabes (Christians who lived in Muslims territories) was not possible to pilgrim to Santiago due to the almost permanent conflicts with the Christian Kingdoms and to fundamentalist periods (almorávide, almohade).
So, the pilgrimage started after the conquest, Portuguese in 1147 (Lisbon), VDLP in 1248 (Seville), Mozárabe in 1492 (Granada), etc.
Then, I think that the name Camino Mozárabe is rather confusing because we could think that those people were allowed to pilgrim during the Muslim period in their territories.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

Modern scholars identify "camino de santiago" routes by the historic record: the roads existed before the pilgrimage started up, But once the pilgrimage took hold, (the 11th century) were there pilgrim hospitals, Cluniac churches, pilgrim cemeteries, church records of pilgrim burials, meals served, beds kept, etc. in the given parish or town or city? There were plenty of roads that led to Santiago in the middle ages, but not all of them could be called "pilgrimage ways." Even so, three new "Caminos" were proposed this year in Galicia, by town councils ready to cash in on the Camino tourism phenomenon. (they call the historians in later to legitimize the claims.)
There are also some spectacular historic pilgrim trails in Spain, complete with infrastructure, that do not go to Santiago. The Via Mariana is one -- from Braga in northern Portugal to Muxia, but NOT Santiago! Newly waymarked, challenging hike through tiny villages, a series of shrines to the Virgin Mary (built over even more ancient holy wells)... about 400 km. Intriguing!
There are tons of colorful stories and great hikes out there. Sadly, if you want to get down and historical, you still need to read Spanish... or Gallego.

 

[Paul_Garland]

Modern scholars identify "camino de santiago" routes by the historic record: the roads existed before the pilgrimage started up, But once the pilgrimage took hold, (the 11th century) were there pilgrim hospitals, Cluniac churches, pilgrim cemeteries, church records of pilgrim burials, meals served, beds kept, etc. in the given parish or town or city? There were plenty of roads that led to Santiago in the middle ages, but not all of them could be called "pilgrimage ways." Even so, three new "Caminos" were proposed this year in Galicia, by town councils ready to cash in on the Camino tourism phenomenon. (they call the historians in later to legitimize the claims.)
There are also some spectacular historic pilgrim trails in Spain, complete with infrastructure, that do not go to Santiago. The Via Mariana is one -- from Braga in northern Portugal to Muxia, but NOT Santiago! Newly waymarked, challenging hike through tiny villages, a series of shrines to the Virgin Mary (built over even more ancient holy wells)... about 400 km. Intriguing!
There are tons of colorful stories and great hikes out there. Sadly, if you want to get down and historical, you still need to read Spanish... or Gallego.

Mariana goes 'through not to' Compostela.

 

[Paul_Garland]

Yes, we assume that for the Mozárabes (Christians who lived in Muslims territories) was not possible to pilgrim to Santiago due to the almost permanent conflicts with the Christian Kingdoms and to fundamentalist periods (almorávide, almohade).
So, the pilgrimage started after the conquest, Portuguese in 1147 (Lisbon), VDLP in 1248 (Seville), Mozárabe in 1492 (Granada), etc.
Then, I think that the name Camino Mozárabe is rather confusing because we could think that those people were allowed to pilgrim during the Muslim period in their territories.

Don't know about the Lisbon route, but in the NE corner of Portugal pilgrims were passing through from central and southern Spain via Zamora and Bragança in Visigothic times. For info search Facebook for <Albergue Ricobayo - Camino Zamorano Portugués>. Confusingly this route to Compostela is also known as the VdlP Portugués. Overlooked for many years, now being sensitively waymarked and new Association albergues being built.

 

[Robo]

I stumbled on this old thread and wondered if anyone has since come up with a listing of routes?

Taking the previous comments into account, I'm more interested in walking routes that have a long 'tradition' of being used by Pilgrims. Rather than those that might have been more recently 'created' to bring Pilgrims through specific locations.

Call me weird, but the older more traditional routes just seem to have a very different vibe to me.
Taking the CF as an example, you can almost feel the energy of the Pilgrims who have walked it for hundreds of years. (Yes, OK, the route has changed here and there)

I was thinking of the Camino Madrid next. But I see from the intro of Johnniewalker's guide book, he writes...........

"This picturesque route from Madrid to Sahagún was created in 1999 when the first guide to the route in Spanish was published by the Asociación de Amigos de los Caminos de Santiago de Madrid"

 

[David Tallan]

Sometimes, it can be a challenge to determine what is an "old" or "new" route. I'm in a discussion on Facebook with someone who is insisting that the Le Puy route is a modern route. She says "according to extensive research by French historians (Pierre Roger Gaussin, Martin de Framond, the David Parou Foundation et al) the pilgrimage from Le Puy to Santiago de Compostela is a modern invention". This, despite claims that the bishop from Le Puy was one of the first pilgrims and the mention of the route through Le Puy, Conques, and Moussac in the Codex Calixtinus. Old route or new route?

Were pilgrims walking from point A to point B is one thing. I would be very surprised if there weren't medieval pilgrims from Madrid to Santiago. Is the exact route currently waymarked the same as was walked historically? Probably not. For sure, it isn't on the Camino Frances. Heck, we've seen changes in our lifetime, as the route is diverted from busy roads. We know that the busy highways probably are in many places covering the roads that would have been walked in the middle ages. Is it enough to be historical if it passes through some towns and villages between point A and point B that historic pilgrims passed through? If so, how many does it take for a route to be considered "historic". I suspect that is the core of the dispute of the historicity of the Le Puy route, for example.

 

[JabbaPapa]

The oldest Christian pilgrimage routes in Spain are the roads that went to Rome in Antiquity, after pilgrims began to travel there in the 3rd and 4th Centuries.

The major ones were simply the major roads that led to the City, and North to South :

(Galicia etc) > Lugo > (Astorga) > León > Burgos > Bayonne > Carcassonne > Narbonne > etc

Same but Burgos > Logroño > Zaragoza > Girona > Perpignan > Narbonne > etc

Lisbon > Burgos > as above

A central West > East road from Sévilla IIRC to Zaragoza etc

Various interconnecting roads

Cadíz > Girona etc. 2 routes, a coastal one, and one heading through Sévilla then back to the coast.

The oldest route still in use for its whole length as a pilgrimage path is the Catalan Way via Lleida as a Way to Santiago, to Manresa, and more infrequently Rome.

The Vasco Interior and some portions of the Francés are of similar Antiquity, but in both cases their extremities lead elsewhere than to Santiago or to the current Ways to Rome, which have shifted away from the old routes and towards various sanctuaries and churches etc along the way.