Multiple payments for Botafumeiro

[Bedspring]

I noticed the other thread about arranging for the Botafumeiro to swing and it suggests the cost is circa €300. Now if I was flying half way around the world and I wanted to see the Botafumeiro swing and it only cost €300, it would be swinging. But this got me thinking, dangerous I know, but bear with me.

I could imagine the Cathedral gets multiple requests some days for the Botafumeiro, so I wonder if

1. the first to ask, pays, and the rest get told its swing anyway.
2. the €300 gets split between all the applicants, bit like splitting a restaurant bill.
3. The Cathedral considers it a donation, not a payment, and takes €300 from everyone.

 

[Kathor1]

LOL. Before you get too deep into the discussion, if I remember correctly, the last figure I have seen is actually €500 per swing. Again if memory does not deceive me this was posted by a forum member who had made an arrangement for the Botafumeiro to swing last year and shared details of the process.

And also that there is no official fee and that it can depend on who makes the contribution, for example when it is group from a local parish perhaps or from a senior school. When you watch the pilgrim mass online you sometimes notice that a representative of such a group steps forward to the altar and gives an address to the Apostle.

I am confident in saying that we will never really know a definite answer to these topics that we wonder about.

 

[Bedspring]

LOL. Before you get too deep into the discussion, if I remember correctly, the last figure I have seen is actually €500 per swing. Again if memory does not deceive me this was posted by a forum member who had made an arrangement for the Botafumeiro to swing last year and shared details of the process.

And also that there is no official fee and that it can depend on who makes the contribution, for example when it is group from a local parish perhaps or from a senior school. When you watch the pilgrim mass online you sometimes notice that a representative of such a group steps forward to the altar and gives an address to the Apostle.

I am confident in saying that we will never really know a definite answer to the topics that we wonder about.

I wonder if Cruise companies as regular customers, get a discount

 

[Kathor1]

I wonder if Cruise companies as regular customers, get a discount

I never wonder about this. I file these threads away under "Money and the Catholic Church" which is apparently a long-running topic of interest.

 

[Pafayac]

I could imagine the Cathedral gets multiple requests some days for the Botafumeiro, so I wonder if

1. the first to ask, pays, and the rest get told its swing anyway.
2. the €300 gets split between all the applicants, bit like splitting a restaurant bill.
3. The Cathedral considers it a donation, not a payment, and takes €300 from everyone.

You give me an idea.
I will collect money and dates in order to book the Botafumeiro, sharing the cost between all donating pilgrims. I will send the required amount (ie 300 €) to Santiago cathedral, and give back the remnant shared between all donators...

... but... do not complain if your money goes away like smoke: it is the Botafumeiro !

 

[henrythedog]

I think you do get reserved seats as ‘sponsors’ of the event. It might give the game away if there were multiple.

 

[Bradypus]

I think you go get reserved seats as a ‘sponsors’ of the event. It might give the game away if there were multiple.

Perhaps the cathedral should attach a streaming message banner from the sponsor whenever the botafumeiro is being paid for privately....

 

[Bradypus]

LOL. Before you get too deep into the discussion, if I remember correctly, the last figure I have seen is actually €500 per swing.

A friend in Santiago has just checked with the sacristy directly. The current standard fee is indeed 500 euros.

 

[naplesdon]

There is more than one Mass everyday!

 

[Molly Cassidy]

I think you do get reserved seats as ‘sponsors’ of the event. It might give the game away if there were multiple.

I don't know, some posts on here have suggested that large areas of pews are, in fact, reserved by tour companies, but I have no personal knowledge of that.

 

[DJames]

There are two pews/front row seats reserved in the south transcept for those that donate. You can request which mass.

I walked in honor of my father that passed away. The cathedral was very nice and the priest mentioned my father’s name during the service. I won’t ever forget that kindness and it was a very moving experience to be sitting there celebrating my fathers life with many new Camino friends as the bota swung.

I am not sure how much the church “makes” on the donation but the people that are required to swing it (can’t remember their titles) are not monks who work for the diocese.

 

[Bradypus]

I am not sure how much the church “makes” on the donation but the people that are required to swing it (can’t remember their titles) are not monks who work for the diocese.

The eight people who swing the Botafumeiro are called tiraboleiros. They are lay people and most already work on the cathedral staff in some capacity. They are paid a small additional fee each time the botafumeiro is used. I am told that fee is now 15 euros.

 

[Kathor1]

some posts on here have suggested that large areas of pews are, in fact, reserved by tour companies, but I have no personal knowledge of that

That may be hearsay. Forum members who actually made arrangements for the Botafumeiro to swing reported a rather limited number of seats reserved for them.

I used to think that the reserved seats were in the main nave but for the poster in the previous comment it was in the south transept. That's the front rows in the part of the Cathedral where you enter these days, i.e. when you walk through the large portal of the Praza das Praterias:

 

[Kathor1]

The eight people who swing the Botafumeiro are called tiraboleiros. They are lay people and most already work on the cathedral staff in some capacity. They are paid a small additional fee each time the botafumeiro is used. I am told that fee is now 15 euros.

In these forum threads it often transpires that some people view this as a money-making business, or they question the actual cost for maintenance and operation and see a huge discrepancy between presumed actual cost and the financial contribution of currently €500. Others see the contribution as a donation or sponsorship money.

Perhaps this depends on how one views the swinging of the Botafumeiro as such: as a spectacle not to be missed, as a fitting end of one's Camino experience or as something different that is perhaps related to one's own relationship with the Saint, either as a personal intercessor or as the protector of Spain and, perhaps nowadays to a lesser degree, as the protector of the Catholic faith.

 

[DJames]

I was provided the first and second row on the left. It was a great experience, especially when there was an elderly woman that had been pushed behind one of the column and could see nothing and we were able to get her and let her squeeze in with us.

 

[Pafayac]

a huge discrepancy between presumed actual cost and the financial contribution of currently €500.

Botafumeiro requires 8 tiraboleiros: I am not sure it is that profitable...

 

[LTfit]

I don't know, some posts on here have suggested that large areas of pews are, in fact, reserved by tour companies, but I have no personal knowledge of that.

I was in Santiago a week ago and the pews in front of me (facing Santiago) and to the right were reserved for volunteers. I do not know about the other front pews.

 

[Bradypus]

Botafumeiro requires 8 tiraboleiros: I am not sure it is that profitable...

I have been told today that each tiraboleiro is paid 15 euros for each occasion when the botafumeiro is used. If the current fee charged by the cathedral is 500 euros per event that suggests that 380 euros can then go towards maintenance, charcoal, incense and so on. I have no idea what the actual costs of maintaining the Botafumeiro and its support system may be. Clearly not all the 500 euros can be considered "profit" but I think it is unlikely that in the long term frequent use of the Botafumeiro is a drain on the cathedral resources.

 

[Molly Cassidy]

I was in Santiago a week ago and the pews in front of me (facing Santiago) and to the right were reserved for volunteers. I do not know about the other front pews.

Ah, perhaps that is it.

I certainly remember a post from someone saying that several rows of pews were reserved.

 

[Kathor1]

Botafumeiro requires 8 tiraboleiros: I am not sure it is that profitable...

Well, is it even current information that the tiraboleiros get paid for each swinging of the Botafumeiro? Or is that some leftover from past stories?

I vaguely remember that in the distant past when the Botafumeiro did not swing as often as it does nowadays the job of tiraboleiro was some kind of honorary job and was even inherited within a local family from father to son. From what I've heard these days the tiraboleiros are paid full-time Cathedral employees who do other jobs than swinging the censer, and and they are perhaps even helped out by the occasional volunteer.

Does anyone have first hand knowledge?

 

[Wooz]

We were told on our tour last month that they receive 25 Euros and the men (not open to women) are all museum employees.

 

[pkonopka]

I noticed the other thread about arranging for the Botafumeiro to swing and it suggests the cost is circa €300. Now if I was flying half way around the world and I wanted to see the Botafumeiro swing and it only cost €300, it would be swinging. But this got me thinking, dangerous I know, but bear with me.

I could imagine the Cathedral gets multiple requests some days for the Botafumeiro, so I wonder if

1. the first to ask, pays, and the rest get told its swing anyway.
2. the €300 gets split between all the applicants, bit like splitting a restaurant bill.
3. The Cathedral considers it a donation, not a payment, and takes €300 from everyone.

My friend and I actually paid for it when we finished the Frances in Oct 2022. First, the nuns on the phone spoke very little English, so being fluent in Spanish is a plus (my friend speaks fluently). You have to send a digital payment - it wasn't in cash - this was a bit of a hassle as we're both Americans and trying to arrange that payment, from your phone in Spain, isn't straightforward necessarily. Second, as another pilgrim said, you get two rows of pews (seats) reserved for you in the front, right in the path of it - really priceless seating. That said, don't be late (in fact be early). Once they start no one can get in. We had a couple friends that came late, and despite the reserved, open seats, they had to stand way in the back. It was really an amazing memory, and we got to share it with some of our other friends (the ones that made it on time . Buen Camino!

 

[henrythedog]

the actual costs of maintaining the Botafumeiro and its support system may be.

Rather more than the cathedral thought they were I suspect given that the apparatus was out of action for quite a while recently. The cost of repairs and the associated lost revenue would be considerable.

 

[t2andreo]

I noticed the other thread about arranging for the Botafumeiro to swing and it suggests the cost is circa €300. Now if I was flying half way around the world and I wanted to see the Botafumeiro swing and it only cost €300, it would be swinging. But this got me thinking, dangerous I know, but bear with me.

I could imagine the Cathedral gets multiple requests some days for the Botafumeiro, so I wonder if

1. the first to ask, pays, and the rest get told its swing anyway.
2. the €300 gets split between all the applicants, bit like splitting a restaurant bill.
3. The Cathedral considers it a donation, not a payment, and takes €300 from everyone.

Option 1 is the correct choice. The party that pays gets reserved seating - up front. There is no cost-sharing provision for multiple groups.

In my experience, there ARE instances of multiple groups collaborating and making a request under the auspices of one of the groups. The payment sharing would be an optional and private thing. The Cathedral does not participate in selling shares of the Botafumeiro ceremony.

If the date / Mass you are seeking is not available, then you will be able to see the Botafumeiro used for free - albeit without the preferred seating.

The schedule for when the Botafumeiro will be used is a VERY tightly held secret. I know the personnel involved. They are tighter lipped than a priest hearing confessions.

I think the only way you could accurately, but indirectly infer the Botafumeiro will be used in future, is if you make a request to pay for it, and they tell you that date is not available. I would infer that to mean that someone else has already booked the Botafumeiro for that Mass.

This information is NEVER made available in advance. Consider that the object is for worshippers to attend and participate in the Holy Mass - NOT to come to see the historical spectacle of the Botafumeiro ceremony. That is why the Botafumeiro ceremony was moved from before the Mass, to after the celebrant's final blessing upon the congregants.

When the Botafumeiro was used, as an incenser, before the Mass as is historically customary, there was simply too much disruption. This detracted from the solemnity and seriousness of the Holy Mass. So, years ago, the decision was taken to move the Botafumeiro ceremony to the end of the Mass.

Hope this helps,

Tom

 

[David Tallan]

That may be hearsay. Forum members who actually made arrangements for the Botafumeiro to swing reported a rather limited number of seats reserved for them.

I used to think that the reserved seats were in the main nave but for the poster in the previous comment it was in the south transept. That's the front rows in the part of the Cathedral where you enter these days, i.e. when you walk through the large portal of the Praza das Praterias:
View attachment 174933

After my 2018 Camino I was there early for a mass where the botafumeiro was swung and informed by cathedral staff that those seats were being saved that those seats were being reserved for those who had sponsored the botafumeiro.

After my 2023 Camino I thought I had figured it out. If I could see that those seats were reserved, I would know that the botafumeiro had been sponsored and I could count on it being swung. I guess that the people who merited the reservation that mass had sone something else to earn it, because there was no swinging of the botafumeiro.

 

[Bedspring]

Option 1 is the correct choice. The party that pays gets reserved seating - up front. There is no cost-sharing provision for multiple groups.

In my experience, there ARE instances of multiple groups collaborating and making a request under the auspices of one of the groups. The payment sharing would be an optional and private thing. The Cathedral does not participate in selling shares of the Botafumeiro ceremony.

If the date / Mass you are seeking is not available, then you will be able to see the Botafumeiro used for free - albeit without the preferred seating.

The schedule for when the Botafumeiro will be used is a VERY tightly held secret. I know the personnel involved. They are tighter lipped than a priest hearing confessions.

I think the only way you could accurately, but indirectly infer the Botafumeiro will be used in future, is if you make a request to pay for it, and they tell you that date is not available. I would infer that to mean that someone else has already booked the Botafumeiro for that Mass.

This information is NEVER made available in advance. Consider that the object if for worshippers to attend and participate in the Holy Mass - NOT to come to see the historical spectacle of the Botafumeiro ceremony. That is why the Botafumeiro ceremony was moved from before the Mass, to after the celebrant's final blessing upon the congregants.

When the Botafumeiro was used, as an incenser, before the Mass as is historically customary, there was simply too much disruption. This detracted from the solemnity and seriousness of the Holy Mass. So, years ago, the decision was taken to move the Botafumeiro ceremony to the end of the Mass.

Hope this helps,

Tom

Thank you. I did wonder why they swung it after, and what you say makes perfect sense.

 

[KJFSophie]

I was in Santiago a week ago and the pews in front of me (facing Santiago) and to the right were reserved for volunteers. I do not know about the other front pews.

Correct. As a volunteer who did the announcements in English prior to each mass, we were seated in reserved seats in the first row on each side of the aisle facing the altar.

 

[mattythedog]

There is more than one Mass everyday!

I saw the Botafumeiro swing in more than one mass on one day last fall.

 

[Lisa HS]

After my 2018 Camino I was there early for a mass where the botafumeiro was swung and informed by cathedral staff that those seats were being saved that those seats were being reserved for those who had sponsored the botafumeiro.

After my 2023 Camino I thought I had figured it out. If I could see that those seats were reserved, I would know that the botafumeiro had been sponsored and I could count on it being swung. I guess that the people who merited the reservation that mass had sone something else to earn it, because there was no swinging of the botafumeiro.

One trick to know when it will swing is to find a tour group sometime the last few days of walking (easy to spot with their matching day-glow colored day packs). Chat them up and ask which mass they are going to. Since tour groups usually pay to make sure their clients see the Bota swing, you can just piggyback on that.

 

[t2andreo]

Thank you. I did wonder why they swung it after, and what you say makes perfect sense.

You are very welcome. Happy to help.