#Metoo on Camino

[EmoJohnson]

I'm with a woman I met on the Camino and we are in Estella in the process of filing a report with very receptive police (and a free lawyer " servicio asistencia a la mujer") who are taking our case seriously. Our breasts were groped by an older man on the road, directly following the pilgrim wine fountain at Irache. He approached under the guise of friendliness; it all happened so quickly. I felt slimed. I want other peregrinas to know about this and emphasize the policemen's attention to this. They report a similar incident occurred a few weeks ago.

 

[SabsP]

When I read your post I thought " oh no not again".
Again good to hear police and law enforcement are taking this so serious.

To all pilgrims...male or female: always contact the police when you are violated or touched in an unappropiate way. They will take it serious.

Take good care and hope you can somewhat relax.

@EmoJohnson : all the best to your friend and to you.

 

[MinaKamina]

Hi! so sorry that this was done to you. What a creep! You reported it to the police, other than using your poles, this is the best you can do. I hope it helps you to feel better that the Police is so serious about this issue.

Take good care of yourselves, a long shower will help, as will a glass of your favourite drink. Buen Camino to both of you.

 

[tillyjones]

Thank you so much for taking action. It takes time and courage to do so....and it can't be easy in a second language.

I will say that I have seen a number of posts about unpleasant encounters like this and while people certainly empathize and agree that it's not ok, I often feel that there's sort of an underlying tone of 'Men can be creeps. That's just how it is'

I don't want to get all feminist here but it sure does suck that we still have to live knowing that men may well engage in unwanted sexual behaviour toward us. IT'S NOT OK. And it should never be that 'that's just how it is'. It's going to take an unrelenting army of us (both men and women) to keep standing up in these situations and saying 'that's not ok and you need to be held accountable for your actions'.

Kudos to you and may I have the same courage. (I often don't)

 

[Bala]

I am so sorry this happened to you. What an awful, unnerving thing.

But thank you on behalf of all who come after you for reporting it to the police, and alerting us here. Let's all hope that your actions help put an end to this man's assaults. And I hope you will be able to put it behind you and move on. Wishing you all the best.

 

[Pilsprog]

There is an app you can download on your Smartphone "AlertCops" which will allow you to contact Spanish police to report theft, vandalism, sexual assault, etc etc.

 

[november_moon]

I think we absolutely should get "all feminist" about this issue. Not only do we live with knowing that this kind of thing may happen, we pretty much expect that it will. The fact that so many believe that this is just how it is and brush it off speaks volumes about our societal attitudes.

 

[VNwalking]

Yuck.
This is not OK, and never was.
Fortunately, it sounds like the police may be taking it seriously - AND that you have a lawyer. Boys may be boys, but that doesn't mean they should ever get away with it. The fact that this has happened already and that it is still happening is a symptom of something that needs to change, and hopefully will.

In the meantime, please take particularly good care of yourselves. And please spread the word to fellow peregrinas to always report this to to police (and if possible and safe to do so to photograph the perpetrator). If these kinds of incidents are not reported, no-one can do anything about them.

 

[EmoJohnson]

Yuck.
This is not OK, and never was.
Fortunately, it sounds like the police may be taking it seriously - AND that you have a lawyer. Boys may be boys, but that doesn't mean they should ever get away with it. The fact that this has happened already and that it is still happening is a symptom of something that needs to change, and hopefully will.

In the meantime, please take particularly good care of yourselves. And please spread the word to fellow peregrinas to always report this to to police (and if possible and safe to do so to photograph the perpetrator). If these kinds of incidents are not reported, no-one can do anything about them.

Thank you so much. Here is his picture. According to "Camigas" on Facebook, he is a repeat offender.

 

[EmoJohnson]

I think we absolutely should get "all feminist" about this issue. Not only do we live with knowing that this kind of thing may happen, we pretty much expect that it will. The fact that so many believe that this is just how it is and brush it off speaks volumes about our societal attitudes.

I think we absolutely should get "all feminist" about this issue. Not only do we live with knowing that this kind of thing may happen, we pretty much expect that it will. The fact that so many believe that this is just how it is and brush it off speaks volumes about our societal attitudes.

Thank you so much for articulating this. My thoughts exactly.

 

[EmoJohnson]

The police just asked me to temporarily remove the photo until I speak with the judge tomorrow.

Thank you so much. Here is his picture. According to "Camigas" on Facebook, he is a repeat offender.

 

[pelerine]

Here is the app which I saved from another thread:

https://alertcops.ses.mir.es/mialertcops/info/info.xhtml

 

[Ekelund]

Hi EmoJohnson, Thank you for taking your time and dealing with this matter in the right way. Many women would have walked away hoping to forget about it. His behavior towards you was not okay and I hope the police will take actions to stop him.
You are an inspiration to other women who have that kind of experiences, we should not walk away from it, instead we have to deal with it meaning reporting the incident to the police.
All the best to you and buen camino, may you walk in peace.

 

[VNwalking]

@EmoJohnson , please let us know how it goes for you tomorrow.
Thinking of you.

 

[Mark61]

I'm with a woman I met on the Camino and we are in Estella in the process of filing a report with very receptive police (and a free lawyer " servicio asistencia a la mujer") who are taking our case seriously. Our breasts were groped by an older man on the road, directly following the pilgrim wine fountain at Irache. He approached under the guise of friendliness; it all happened so quickly. I felt slimed. I want other peregrinas to know about this and emphasize the policemen's attention to this. They report a similar incident occurred a few weeks ago.

It would be great if someone could get a picture! Even better if someone has steel-toed boots and kick him.........just saying..

 

[Anamiri]

Last year on the Camino my friend was chatting with some younger women who had encountered something similar the night before in an albergue. Apparently an older male pilgrim, had 'come on to' to one of them strongly, and was duly rebuffed by both of them. They asked to be moved to a different room, but he continued to stay at the albergue. They left early to avoid him, and did a longer day to put distance between them.
He apparently considered the Camino as a 'hunting ground', allowing him to come into contact with younger woman in dormitories in a legitimate sort of way.
We were quite horrified by this, not only for the inappropriate behavior, but also as he was a fellow pilgrim.

 

[Johnlewis47]

Please may I say, that it is not normal for ‘boys to be boys’ this behaviour is is not in every guys make up.

I for one would challenge any man I came across behaving like this or in any other defamatory way towards any other human being. It was once my job to defend humankind and today it is my job to try to save them, or ease their suffering pain and anxiety (visions of the ambulance service I work for)

I am sorry a fellow member of my gender and of humankind felt the right to treat you in such a way, and well done for being brave enough to report it.

Buen Camino

 

[Deleted member 39850]

Fellow “pilgrims” can be disappointing. And dangerous. There was one that started from Bordeaux where I helped him get on the correct train (he spoke no French and was lost). He was carrying many different opiate scripts in his bag, and a host of psychotropics... He offered this information and access to his drugs to anyone within ear shot. If that were not weird enough, he’d take the drugs then hallucinate horrible things at night and accuse others of being horrible. He threatened to harm a lovely young couple who had done nothing to deserve his ire; he threatened to punch me because I giggled (in French, in the dorm at night) on finding that someone’s bug spray smelled better than whatever our troublesome friend was expelling from the bunk below mine. He was generally awful and we all worked at Najera to put significant distance between us, delete his information from our phones, etc.
Saw him last grumping through the rain toward Burgos, but I don’t think he found Hemingway there and must have returned to the US. Nobody saw him again.
Thankfully.
All this to say — definitely beware of the strange motivations that drive some pilgrims — sadly it’s exclusively been men in my experience — to be predatory in different ways.

 

[nycwalking]

Sorry.

Buen camino anyhow!

 

[JennyH94]

Thanks so much for your warning EmoJohnson - forewarned is forearmed.

I've posted your Forum post on our Pilgrims in Sydney facebook page ... there are a number of us who have just started their camino and others who are about to head off, and this information is very helpful. I suggest anyone who is a member of a pilgrim association, no matter where it is in the world, also shares your post, so their members can be alerted.

Buen Camino to you and to your friend - take joy in every step on those ancient and magical paths and please know that you have helped countless female pilgrims by sharing your experience.

Cheers from Oz -
Jenny

 

[Damien Reynolds]

ok, I am just curious and I suspect I know the answer but I have never actually seen anything, so maybe I have no clue?

Is a woman more likely to be harassed by a Spaniard local or by a fellow perigrino?

Totally think any of this behavior is terrible and I hope you don't all hate me for asking this sincere question.

I would love to believe that perigrinos are all saints (and not just 99.99% of us) but I am curious what the women think.

Damien

 

[Damien Reynolds]

Now that I think of it, one morning, when traveling with my sister, we were in one of the towns just outside Finnestere... she likes coffee, and she got up early, and walked over to the local bar while I was still snoozing.

Well, she walked in and it was readily apparent they've been partying all night. A big dude actually closed the door behind her.

My sister is a bad ass, and she got agro, and told them, "Hell no, you open the door now" and I imagine the group of partying youngish spanish dudes were actually scared by her.

They opened the door but she was affected.

In my experience vote 1 for locals, sadly.

Damien

 

[JennyH94]

ok, I am just curious and I suspect I know the answer but I have never actually seen anything, so maybe I have no clue?

Is a woman more likely to be harassed by a Spaniard local or by a fellow perigrino?

Totally think any of this behavior is terrible and I hope you don't all hate me for asking this sincere question.

I would love to believe that perigrinos are all saints (and not just 99.99% of us) but I am curious what the women think.

Damien

Good question Damien ... thanks for bringing it up for discussion. I can only speak from personal experience so I'll recount an unsettling situation I was faced with back in 2014.

I was in Astorga just for one night after volunteering at Refugio Gaucelmo at Rabanal. I walked out of Astorga to visit my favourite way marker which is at the side of the path just as you walk into Astorga, alongside the derelict industrial building. Just after that building are several houses. There was no one about - a very quiet and still afternoon. On the way to the way marker an older man stepped out from his garden and on to the path - he waited until I got closer and then stepped back into his garden. As I passed I could see his legs and shoes behind the screen of trees - I got a really bad vibe - so I hurried away and up to the way marker. At the way marker I waited until some pilgrims came into view as I didn't want to walk back past his house by myself. After a short time a couple of pilgrims walked past so I joined them. As we got closer to the man's house he stepped out again and glared at the three of us. None of us said anything and we walked on. When we were out of his earshot the two other pilgrims said to me "Wow, what was that all about?" - they got the bad vibe too.

Now, probably nothing would have happened, but it was an unsettling experience which I've never forgotten. When I walked past the spot again last year I was careful to be in sight of other pilgrims - I looked into the man's garden and saw nothing.

Here is my favourite way marker - it's very special to me. I have a ritual of placing flowers and pebbles each time I pass and I think of my loved ones - particularly my Dad who was a POW in WWII :

Cheers from Oz -
Jenny

 

[Dorpie]

Please may I say, that it is not normal for ‘boys to be boys’ this behaviour is is not in every guys make up.

I totally agree @Johnlewis47 that this is not acceptable but I fear it is a lot more prevelant than men like us understand. On my first camino one of my walking companions was accosted near the old moutainside map of the world. I couldn't believe she didn't want to report it to police but she felt it wasn't that big of a deal and I didn't want to exacerbate any trauma she may have felt by insisting. On returning to the UK I spoke to a lot of my female friends about it and they almost all had a similar story.

I would like to think that it is just a very small proportion of men who behave like this, yet do so prolifically, but as a man it's just something I don't have any clear sight of. In my circle of friends anything like this would be totally unacceptable.

Stay safe,

Rob.


Moderator note: This post was edited to remove Political comment.

Edit: Apologies to mods, didn't occur to me that I may have been being controversial.

 

[MinaKamina]

It's a bad world, folks, and things may happen. The forum has an excellent section on Personal Safety and also on Camino Crime Watch. Read and pay attention.

Pilgrims and especially Peregrinas are vulnerable. We are far away from home, in a trusting mood and often in a happy bubble. But not everybody is the same or thinks the same. For predators of all feathers, peregrinas are an easy prey for many reasons and chances of being caught used to be low - but times are changing.

EmoJohnson posted - and wisely deleted- the picture of what looked like a friendly grandfather ~ and possibly he is indeed a friendly grandfather, and starting to have dementia. There is no way of knowing if you just happen to pass by. The Caminos run through the lives of the people who happen to live there, and they all react to it in their own way. Not knowing whom you will meet, is part of the pilgrimage.

Hope the Guardia Civil will solve this soon.

 

[pelerine]

And, as has been said before, but not emphasized enough, every incident should be reported to the police, not only to the hospitaleiro. Here is app Alert Cops again:

https://alertcops.ses.mir.es

 

[EmoJohnson]

It's a bad world, folks, and things may happen. The forum has an excellent section on Personal Safety and also on Camino Crime Watch. Read and pay attention.

Pilgrims and especially Peregrinas are vulnerable. We are far away from home, in a trusting mood and often in a happy bubble. But not everybody is the same or thinks the same. For predators of all feathers, peregrinas are an easy prey for many reasons and chances of being caught used to be low - but times are changing.

EmoJohnson posted - and wisely deleted- the picture of what looked like a friendly grandfather ~ and possibly he is indeed a friendly grandfather, and starting to have dementia. There is no way of knowing if you just happen to pass by. The Caminos run through the lives of the people who happen to live there, and they all react to it in their own way. Not knowing whom you will meet, is part of the pilgrimage.

Hope the Guardia Civil will solve this soon.

According to police he is a repeat offender and regardless of the benign abuelo appearance he was very much aware of his actions.

 

[EmoJohnson]

I totally agree @Johnlewis47 that this is not acceptable but I fear it is a lot more prevelant than men like us understand. On my first camino one of my walking companions was accosted near the old moutainside map of the world. I couldn't believe she didn't want to report it to police but she felt it wasn't that big of a deal and I didn't want to exacerbate any trauma she may have felt by insisting. On returning to the UK I spoke to a lot of my female friends about it and they almost all had a similar story.

I would like to think that it is just a very small proportion of men who behave like this, yet do so prolifically, but as a man it's just something I don't have any clear sight of. In my circle of friends anything like this would be totally unacceptable.

Stay safe,

Rob.


Moderator note: This post was edited to remove Political comment.

Edit: Apologies to mods, didn't occur to me that I may have been being controversial.

I saw it prior to being removed and appreciated the comparison and do appreciate your entire post.

 

[EmoJohnson]

Please may I say, that it is not normal for ‘boys to be boys’ this behaviour is is not in every guys make up.

I for one would challenge any man I came across behaving like this or in any other defamatory way towards any other human being. It was once my job to defend humankind and today it is my job to try to save them, or ease their suffering pain and anxiety (visions of the ambulance service I work for)

I am sorry a fellow member of my gender and of humankind felt the right to treat you in such a way, and well done for being brave enough to report it.

Buen Camino

Thank you very much! I didn't like sacrificing two days of my Camino for the police station and testifying in court but then I realized "this is my Camino".

 

[EmoJohnson]

Thanks so much for your warning EmoJohnson - forewarned is forearmed.

I've posted your Forum post on our Pilgrims in Sydney facebook page ... there are a number of us who have just started their camino and others who are about to head off, and this information is very helpful. I suggest anyone who is a member of a pilgrim association, no matter where it is in the world, also shares your post, so their members can be alerted.

Buen Camino to you and to your friend - take joy in every step on those ancient and magical paths and please know that you have helped countless female pilgrims by sharing your experience.

Cheers from Oz -
Jenny

Thank you for this, Jenny.

 

[EmoJohnson]

When I read your post I thought " oh no not again".
Again good to hear police and law enforcement are taking this so serious.

To all pilgrims...male or female: always contact the police when you are violated or touched in an unappropiate way. They will take it serious.

Take good care and hope you can somewhat relax.

@EmoJohnson : all the best to your friend and to you.

Thank you. The police were very thorough and kind.

 

[EmoJohnson]

Yuck.
This is not OK, and never was.
Fortunately, it sounds like the police may be taking it seriously - AND that you have a lawyer. Boys may be boys, but that doesn't mean they should ever get away with it. The fact that this has happened already and that it is still happening is a symptom of something that needs to change, and hopefully will.

In the meantime, please take particularly good care of yourselves. And please spread the word to fellow peregrinas to always report this to to police (and if possible and safe to do so to photograph the perpetrator). If these kinds of incidents are not reported, no-one can do anything about them.

Thank you for your support and kindness. I think "boys will be boys" should be an eradicated expression

 

[EmoJohnson]

@EmoJohnson , please let us know how it goes for you tomorrow.
Thinking of you.

I testified in court today. My Camino friend, with two rapes in her history, had a very emotionally draining time today. The defense implied the perp's partial deafness and age excuse the behavior. The defense attorney tried to intimidate me with a theatrically booming voice. Regardless, this is repeat behavior.
AND
while the patriarcado is alive and well, we were so beautifully received by the police, attorney, and translator that I am deeply moved.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

while the patriarcado is alive and well, we were so beautifully received by the police, attorney, and translator

Changing that is a long term project. In the short term, making the law work is about as good as it gets! Well done.

 

[Johnlewis47]

I testified in court today. My Camino friend, with two rapes in her history, had a very emotionally draining time today. The defense implied the perp's partial deafness and age excuse the behavior. The defense attorney tried to intimidate me with a theatrically booming voice. Regardless, this is repeat behavior.
AND
while the patriarcado is alive and well, we were so beautifully received by the police, attorney, and translator that I am deeply moved.

Well done for being so brave to take this all the way.

This person is a repeat offender, even if he has other mental health or old age issues going on, society needs to be protected and clearly aren’t. Protection comes with using the law to highlight these situations.

You have been a hero today well done

 

[MinaKamina]

Changing that is a long term project. In the short term, making the law work is about as good as it gets! Well done.

Excuse me? Used to be that peregrinas who filed a complaint had to return to Spain after months to testify, if not their case might be thrown out. While in this case, the OP was listened too, her case was brought to court almost immediately, she got a translator ... this is the VIP treatment that common Spaniards can only dream of.

 

[Deleted member 36903]

Last year on the Camino my friend was chatting with some younger women who had encountered something similar the night before in an albergue. Apparently an older male pilgrim, had 'come on to' to one of them strongly, and was duly rebuffed by both of them. They asked to be moved to a different room, but he continued to stay at the albergue. They left early to avoid him, and did a longer day to put distance between them.
He apparently considered the Camino as a 'hunting ground', allowing him to come into contact with younger woman in dormitories in a legitimate sort of way.
We were quite horrified by this, not only for the inappropriate behavior, but also as he was a fellow pilgrim.

A year or so ago a member of this forum - probably long gone or asked to leave - offered the view that in his experience picking up women while walking the Camino was akin to shooting fish in a barrel. The moderators deleted the offending post pdq, for which I thank them but I read it and thought, yes, there might be one or two men out there pretending to be pilgrims but really their motivation is to continue their predatory behaviour in a different environment. As others have repeatedly said, the Camino is no Disneyland and it will attract a minority of people who are financial opportunists or sexual exploiters. As long as we are alert to this possibility we can be confident about walking the Camino because the forum through its members provides the necessary information as to what action to take if something like this happens.

 

[grayland]

Gently folks....discussion and disagreement are welcome...but please take care to not cross the line between "disagreement" and personal attack.
This is a a very important and personal topic for many of our members.

Please keep the discussion on a courteous and civil level..so that the thread can stay open for comment.

Thanks for your cooperation .

 

[David Tallan]

Thank you very much! I didn't like sacrificing two days of my Camino for the police station and testifying in court but then I realized "this is my Camino".

It seems to me that you were sacrificing two days of your Camino to help other, future, pilgrims. That is one of the things that I most valued about the Camino, the way pilgrims would go out of their way to help each other. I certainly fondly recall those who went out of their way to help me and treasure the memories of when I was able to help others.

I hope that the rest of your Camino(s) proceeds without any more of this kind of interruption and opportunity to help.

 

[EmoJohnson]

Oh, I totally agree with the need to report and prosecute genuine misconduct. However, here (in the US), the culture has become so toxic that even exchanging pleasantries with another gender is an iffy prospect. It is in my nature to smile at people as a general matter throughout the day, because I can. Sometimes the scowls, and muttered comments as people pass by are alarming. My "cringe" comment was a reference to that hyper-sensitized state I observe, nothing more.

My point is that the hashtag has become so overused here that is almost becomes lost in the din... it ceases to alarm or alert in many cases when it should. It seems that everyone uses it for every slight, no matter how small. It is sort of like the child's story of Peter and the wolf. I think you understand.

I did not, not would I ever seek to discount the feelings of any person who felt put upon or in any way assaulted, verbally or otherwise. The OP did the absolute correct thing in reporting and prosecuting this matter. I applaud her for remaining behind to testify in a court hearing. I like the others applaud he, and her friend going the extra mile, so to speak to prosecute this matter. I hope that others, so affected will do the same.

I also agree with you about 'no tocar.' A gentleman never goes where he is not invited. To presume is to make a fool of oneself...and this unfortunate fellow did.

Hope this helps calm down a tad...

I appreciate your thoughtful response to this thread. I do think there is a fundamental misunderstanding about the function of #Metoo; if it's okay with you, I may message you if there's adequate time on the Camino.
(I will quickly add there is nothing that you're in charge of calming down, which could imply hysteria, rather than mutual education/conversation. It's sensitive business, as it should be, but we can respectfully discuss.)

 

[t2andreo]

That is what respectable debate is all about. Thank you for your thoughtful post.

Just know that I am one of the 'good guys.' I am genuinely on your side. I have sisters, nieces, and a spouse. I even accept that I have a feminine 'side' and I do consider myself pro-feminist, on most issues.

 

[peregrina2000]

We have been watching this thread for days now and have decided to sever the #metoo part of the discussion. The OP and her walking partner should be commended for giving up precious walking time, for subjecting themselves to this very disagreeable process, and for giving all of us a good example of how to deal with these things when they happen on the camino. Too often we walk away and push it under the rug.

Any further posts should stay far away from the political hot button issue of #metoo.

Many thanks, @EmoJohnson

 

[VNwalking]

Too often we walk away and push it under the rug.

Indeed. I have done this myself, and know many people who also just kept walking.
If we do not report things nothing will ever change. But it's not easy. So,

Many thanks, @EmoJohnson

My thanks too, Emo, with the hope that if I ever again encounter something 'over the line,' I will have the same strength of heart as you.

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

I have a question for the Moderators , why delete posts about a serious subject as attacking Pilgrims .
In my honest opinion the thread was a very positive one and very serious .

Peter.

 

[peregrina2000]

Hi, Peter,
I am the one who did the deleting, so I will respond. I completely agree that this thread is a positive one and very serious. I do not agree that a post that criticizes the #metoo movement and says that it unnecessarily inhibits men's ability to interact with women is a topic that has anything to do with what the OP posted about and what forum members were reacting to for the first 26 posts on this thread. None of those first posts were deleted, nor were any of the subsequent posts that were limited to providing support, encouragement, or relevant commentary to the OP about what she was going to. As the first flaming post recognized, the reaction was to the title of the thread and not to any of the content of the thread.

I do not think it is accurate to say that we are trying to stifle discussion about these terrible incidents. But I have had many conversations about #metoo outside of the forum, and I know that it is a hot button topic that inflames and incites. The original post criticizing the movement is proof of that. I hope we can get this thread back on track to support @EmoJohnson and to thank her for doing what so many of us should have done but never took the time to do.

 

[Tincatinker]

As members well know, we ask members to take discussion of Moderator decisions to Private Message and not the open forum for obvious reasons but I'm going to break the rule here.

Posts have been deleted because they had nothing to do with the OP, a warning about totally unacceptable treatment of pilgrims by a man on a camino route, and the actions taken by those who had suffered the aggression. The posts that have been deleted were a digression into a discussion of gender politics, pontification and made no positive contribution.

And as a final note Moderators do what they do because that is what they do, moderate.

All members are reminded of the rules of this forum that Moderators will do their level best to maintain.

 

[Tincatinker]

And as a foot-note. Two Moderators, living in different nations and different time-zones were both doing their personal best, 1 etherial minute apart, to keep this forum as it should be and articulate the reasons for our actions. Its not a conspiracy, its an assembly of hope.

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

Thanks .

 

[t2andreo]

I simply plead "nolo contendere." It is what it is. No harm was intended and one hopes none was done.

One of these days I will learn...

 

[Sharon B]

Thank you so much for taking action. It takes time and courage to do so....and it can't be easy in a second language.

I will say that I have seen a number of posts about unpleasant encounters like this and while people certainly empathize and agree that it's not ok, I often feel that there's sort of an underlying tone of 'Men can be creeps. That's just how it is'

I don't want to get all feminist here but it sure does suck that we still have to live knowing that men may well engage in unwanted sexual behaviour toward us. IT'S NOT OK. And it should never be that 'that's just how it is'. It's going to take an unrelenting army of us (both men and women) to keep standing up in these situations and saying 'that's not ok and you need to be held accountable for your actions'.

Kudos to you and may I have the same courage. (I often don't)

Agreed! I also call on the police to start monitoring the Camino, even using under cover female police officers. If previous incidents have been reported, then the Camino portion should be monitored.

 

[MinaKamina]

Agreed! I also call on the police to start monitoring the Camino, even using under cover female police officers. If previous incidents have been reported, then the Camino portion should be monitored.

You may be delighted to know that there is a Safety Plan for the entire Camino that is updated and improved each year. The swift way in which this case was dealt with is a result of that policy.

Have a safe Camino and take care of yourself and your fellow pilgrims.

 

[VNwalking]

This is good news, @MinaKamina , thank you for letting us know. And obviously it is effective, as far as that is presently possible. Do you know who can offer input on this safety plan - and is it open for public comment?

 

[peregrina2000]

Our intrepid Peregrina amigas are in the news. https://navarra.elespanol.com/artic...nas-camino-santiago/20180601135144194511.html

For those who don’t read Spanish, the article details how two American peregrinas testified about the actions detailed in earlier posts. Because of their testimony, the man has been arrested and will be prosecuted in Estella. A smiley face is totally inappropriate, I know, but this news is so heartening. Looks like there may be a bend in the long arc of machismo and entitlement in Spain. Heartfelt thanks to both of you.

 

[EmoJohnson]

Our intrepid Peregrina amigas are in the news. https://navarra.elespanol.com/artic...nas-camino-santiago/20180601135144194511.html

For those who don’t read Spanish, the article details how two American peregrinas testified about the actions detailed in earlier posts. Because of their testimony, the man has been arrested and will be prosecuted in Estella. A smiley face is totally inappropriate, I know, but this news is so heartening. Looks like there may be a bend in the long arc of machismo and entitlement in Spain. Heartfelt thanks to both of you.

Wow, just wow! Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

 

[MinaKamina]

The police have arrested a local man of 79 years of age.

This arrest has taken place within the framework of the surveillance operation that the Foral Police have reinforced during the spring and summer on the Camino de Santiago in order to guarantee both the objective and subjective safety of the thousands of pilgrims who pass through it in these months.

The reinforcement of security, which will last until October 31, involves agents from the Citizen Security and Environmental Protection Brigade, who patrol on foot and by vehicle surrounding areas of the three routes of the Camino, such as rest areas and nearby albergues.

https://navarra.elespanol.com/artic...nas-camino-santiago/20180601135144194511.html

Among the functions to be carried out, the information to be provided through an interview with all those in charge of each albergue, with the aim of advising them on preventive measures and establishing a communication channel to resolve possible incidents related to citizen security, stands out.

From the police station in Pamplona, 46 albergues and 63 areas of the "French route" will be controlled, while agents from Elizondo will control 7 albergues and 15 areas of the "Baztan route", from Sangüesa, 4 and 9 respectively, of the "French route", and from the police station in Tudela, will control 23 and 36, including the GR-99 or "Ebro route".

In last year's campaign, officers completed 1,452 patrol hours at various points along the Camino and held three interviews with the people in charge of each albergue with the aim of highlighting the security measures to be passed on to their guests.

The most important incidents in which the Foral Police participated were the search for lost pilgrims, the assistance and attention to other events due to different problems and the informative and informative tasks.

With regard to criminal activity, the Foral Police highlights the downward trend in crimes against property such as theft and robbery, as well as sexual aggression and abuse that in past campaigns occurred and generated some social alarm in some sections of the Camino, where they also collected complaints for exhibitionism.

The patrols also observed deficiencies in the signalling, basically due to deterioration, which were reported to the corresponding authorities for correction.

https://navarra.elespanol.com/artic...=related&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=related

This is the security plan of Navarra, other regions have similar plans. Note that the police stay in contact with the albergues, so you can also start with reporting your concerns there.

 

[VNwalking]

Wow, just wow!

Your avatar is perfect, Emo.
Well done.

This is the security plan of Navarra, other regions have similar plans. Note that the police stay in contact with the albergues, so you can also start with reporting your concerns there.

Very practical and useful information to have, @MinaKamina , thank you.
It's far less intimidating to start with a report to the hospi, than to going directly to the police.

 

[Duayne Meyer]

I'm with a woman I met on the Camino and we are in Estella in the process of filing a report with very receptive police (and a free lawyer " servicio asistencia a la mujer") who are taking our case seriously. Our breasts were groped by an older man on the road, directly following the pilgrim wine fountain at Irache. He approached under the guise of friendliness; it all happened so quickly. I felt slimed. I want other peregrinas to know about this and emphasize the policemen's attention to this. They report a similar incident occurred a few weeks ago.

I join the forum community in being indignant. Thank you for being brave enough to go to the police and also for taking the time to post it on this forum as a warning. Yes, the Camino is a wonderful, holy place but there are people who are troubled and, potentially, dangerous. I am guessing the local authorities were more than displeased and, that when the word gets out, people in the community will help figure out who did this. I'm sorry this happened. The Camino is such an open, trusting, giving place. I am hoping that openness hasn't been stolen from you and others by an old pervert.

 

[C clearly]

people in the community will help figure out who did this.

They know who did it. They arrested him!

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I am guessing the local authorities were more than displeased

I think Denise Thiem was a sea change for local authorities. It may take a while for complete change by the authorities, but her death was so shocking that I think it penetrated all the way into the local bars as well as law enforcement. The official response in this case is the beginning of her legacy. We owe her a debt of gratitude, and will for decades (and incidents) to come. Many of us with over a decade of reading about such incidents on the Camino can see how completely different this one was handled. In a sense, it was almost too easy because the assault and battery was by a local with a long history of such actions. When it is more of a "one time" incidentby a twenty-something in a bar, I can still see the end result being "boys will be boys." We will see.

Again, kudos to EmoJohnson.

When all law enforcement is as responsive, women can feel much more secure. It may take a while; police enforcement is generally by a pretty macho bunch who are reluctant to enforce laws that may apply to many of their friends on many Friday night bar hops. You can find male entitlement in the very earliest writings of mankind.

 

[MinaKamina]

I think Denise Thiem was a sea change for local authorities. It may take a while for complete change by the authorities, but her death was so shocking that I think it penetrated all the way into the local bars as well as law enforcement. The official response in this case is the beginning of her legacy. We owe her a debt of gratitude, and will for decades (and incidents) to come. Many of us with over a decade of reading about such incidents on the Camino can see how completely different this one was handled. In a sense, it was almost too easy because the assault and battery was by a local with a long history of such actions. When it is more of a "one time" incidentby a twenty-something in a bar, I can still see the end result being "boys will be boys." We will see.

Again, kudos to EmoJohnson.

When all law enforcement is as responsive, women can feel much more secure. It may take a while; police enforcement is generally by a pretty macho bunch who are reluctant to enforce laws that may apply to many of their friends on many Friday night bar hops. You can find male entitlement in the very earliest writings of mankind.

When Denise Thiem disappeared in 2015, the Plan de Seguridad Jacobea 2014 - 2016 was operational. This plan that encompasses autonomous regions, various bodies of police and guardia civíl and local authorities did not come falling out of the blue sky. A lot of work went into it, as it does today.
As soon as her disappearance was reported, the police analyzed the case ans concluded that it was disturbing and that Denise had most likely come to harm in the area where her remains were indeed found later. The man who was later convicted was the main suspect - though not the sole - from the beginning. Spanish law enforcement worked very hard to not only solve this case, but also to get the perpetrator convicted. There were no loose ends at the trial and all was done within the legal boundaries. I am delighted to inform that all appeals sofar have failed.

The general battle against all crimen de género is a big issue in Spain. Police and Guardia give it priority, collect data and report all incidents. Combined with the Plan de Seguridad Jacobea, peregrinas benefit enormeously.

I sometimes wonder if pilgrims are aware how much the Spanish authorities are doing for them? I see very little thank-you notes.

 

[Albertagirl]

When Denise Thiem disappeared in 2015, the Plan de Seguridad Jacobea 2014 - 2016 was operational. This plan that encompasses autonomous regions, various bodies of police and guardia civíl and local authorities did not come falling out of the blue sky. A lot of work went into it, as it does today.
As soon as her disappearance was reported, the police analyzed the case ans concluded that it was disturbing and that Denise had most likely come to harm in the area where her remains were indeed found later. The man who was later convicted was the main suspect - though not the sole - from the beginning. Spanish law enforcement worked very hard to not only solve this case, but also to get the perpetrator convicted. There were no loose ends at the trial and all was done within the legal boundaries. I am delighted to inform that all appeals sofar have failed.

The general battle against all crimen de género is a big issue in Spain. Police and Guardia give it priority, collect data and report all incidents. Combined with the Plan de Seguridad Jacobea, peregrinas benefit enormeously.

I sometimes wonder if pilgrims are aware how much the Spanish authorities are doing for them? I see very little thank-you notes.

@MinaKamina
I walked the Camino Frances alone in the fall of 2015, shortly after Denise's body had been found. West of Astorga, which was where she had last been seen alive, there were many police officers watching out for the safety of peregrinas. Three police cars passed me as I walked west that day. The last of the three stopped and a female officer asked me if I was alright (I was moving rather slowly on a rough slope). I appreciated their care for me.
But, in the years that I have walked since, there have been many postings on this forum about women who have been accosted on trails by a man masturbating. I have heard several times that public masturbation is legal in Spain, except in the case where the person accosted is a child or a vulnerable person. I am not comfortable with this and I doubt if I ever shall be. I am not confident that such men are harmless. I know that the police can only enforce the laws as they receive them. So, from what I have heard and seen, I have great respect for the police and for what they do for the safety of pilgrims. But as for the authorities, I believe that they have left in force regulations on this matter which do not encourage me to feel safe when walking a pilgrim route alone in Spain.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Three police cars passed me as I walked west that day. The last of the three stopped and a female officer asked me if I was alright (I was moving rather slowly on a rough slope). I appreciated their care for me.

I am generally opposed to taking two bites of the apple in posting on the Forum, which usually leads to heated debate/argument, but I am not sure that Spain should get a lot of credit for safety on the Camino pre-Denise. It took persistence from her brother to really start an investigation. Pre-Denise reactions to lewd exposure and even assault and battery were routinely dismissed. Nudity is legal, specifically in some provinces and as a practice in the rest, so lewd exposure was a low law enforcement priority, often regarded as just another aspect of nudity. Groping in bars and at San Fermines was considered part of the culture (think the butt pinch in Italy).

Once it was clear that Denise really had disappeared, the public relations disaster also became apparent, and Spanish law enforcement suddenly came alive. There had never been a previous murder of a pilgrim, and it shocked them. I am not sure they REALLY understand or acknowledge today that the casual handling of the previous assaults by the perpetrator was the gateway to the tragedy. Her brother Cedric eventually enlisted the assistance of Senator John McCain to make sure the Spanish effort was sincere, something that would not have been necessary if he thought the original effort was appropriate. He would be a good source for an opinion on the way law enforcement initially acted.

The police should get due credit for increasing the intensity of the investigation and the successful result, and the xuntas should get credit for the current safety measures. I think the Caminos were very safe, and I think they are even more safe with the new measures put in place by the authorities in Spain. New attitudes are illuminated by the past, but not by whitewashing the past. I still would assert that there is a new era of safety for which we owe Denise a debt that we can never repay.

 

[MinaKamina]

I am generally opposed to taking two bites of the apple in posting on the Forum, which usually leads to heated debate/argument, but I am not sure that Spain should get a lot of credit for safety on the Camino pre-Denise. It took persistence from her brother to really start an investigation. Pre-Denise reactions to lewd exposure and even assault and battery were routinely dismissed. Nudity is legal, specifically in some provinces and as a practice in the rest, so lewd exposure was a low law enforcement priority, often regarded as just another aspect of nudity. Groping in bars and at San Fermines was considered part of the culture (think the butt pinch in Italy).

Once it was clear that Denise really had disappeared, the public relations disaster also became apparent, and Spanish law enforcement suddenly came alive. There had never been a previous murder of a pilgrim, and it shocked them. I am not sure they REALLY understand or acknowledge today that the casual handling of the previous assaults by the perpetrator was the gateway to the tragedy. Her brother Cedric eventually enlisted the assistance of Senator John McCain to make sure the Spanish effort was sincere, something that would not have been necessary if he thought the original effort was appropriate. He would be a good source for an opinion on the way law enforcement initially acted.

The police should get due credit for increasing the intensity of the investigation and the successful result, and the xuntas should get credit for the current safety measures. I think the Caminos were very safe, and I think they are even more safe with the new measures put in place by the authorities in Spain. New attitudes are illuminated by the past, but not by whitewashing the past. I still would assert that there is a new era of safety for which we owe Denise a debt that we can never repay.

The intervention of Senator John McCain did nothing to improve the effort of the Spanish state. Read the Court transcripts, because that is what they are for. In fact it would have been a legal disaster if the intervention of the good Senator had influenced the arrest of the then alleged perpetrator. The defense tried to play this card during the pre-trial, the trial and their appeals. They claimed that this man with a bad social profile and some coincidental knowledge had only been arrested because the Americans insisted on action. Had this been true, the case would have been thrown out. It wasn't thrown out, because the police had all avenues covered.
Wild West justice does not apply in Spain.

One of the peregrinas who was previously attacked testified in court via a video connection. Earlier reports of both peregrinas were published by the court and amply reported in the press. There is no mystery or denial here.

Next time you unzip near to the Camino to do pipi, or lower your pants in the woods, rejoice that nudity in Spain is legal. You may have taken your peregrine privilege for granted, it wasn't, but it has been legalized at last.

 

[grayland]

The thread has strayed a great deal from the original post.
The suspect was arrested and has already been tried and found guilty thanks to the two peregrinas who stuck with it and took it to an end. Thanks also to the new policies of the Spanish police and courts to allow a quick and speedy conclusion to theses cases. In the past, the dirt bag perpetrators knew that they would not be held accountable because the victims would not be able to stay and testify.

The thread will be closed for now. Thanks to all for thier participation.