Philtration
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- Time of past OR future Camino
- CF 2021, 2023
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After visiting Granada last spring, I'm trying to learn more about the Arabic occupation of Spain and the Reconquista. I've had little luck finding books on the subjects. If you know of any I'd appreciate hearing of them.
Thanks!
Arabs are a people whose place of ethnic origin is the Arabian Peninsula.
The language which they speak, and which has spread widely to other areas, is Arabic. “Arabic” is not generally used as an adjective except when referring to the language or in a few traditional phrases such as “gum arabic” and “arabic numerals.” Note that in these few phrases the word is not capitalized. Otherwise it is “Arab customs,” “Arab groups,” “Arab countries,” etc.
Me, I'd go to my local library and ask the Librarian what they could find..I've had little luck finding books on the subjects
Am I alone in wishing we could stick to ‘can I take my poles in hand-luggage?’ threads like the good old days?Dan Brown, authority on the Templars
I’ll have a go at that. I found his style (even in Spanish) entertaining and informative.(edit: just ordered the Spanish language version)Tremlett's "Ghosts of Spain" is also worth a read; if only to place the history into its present context
I know where thats coming from but they weren't dark ages for the people that lived 'em. Just look at the textiles, the jewellery, the statuary, the social structures, the emergence of cohesive religious practice before the impositions of Rome. They are only "dark" because for centuries no-one was prepared to shine a light into the gloomstill living in the " dark ages
Absolutely! I expressed myself wrongly. I was trying to explain that muslims in that era introduced new inventions and views that were still unknown for christians in those regions.I know where thats coming from but they weren't dark ages for the people that lived 'em. Just look at the textiles, the jewellery, the statuary, the social structures, the emergence of cohesive religious practice before the impositions of Rome. They are only "dark" because for centuries no-one was prepared to shine a light into the gloom
No more than it does me and him!Sometimes my English fails me.
FYI, Arabic is the language, Arab is the adjective.
I enjoy Jasons Websters books. I found 'Violencia' A new history of Spain was very readable.After visiting Granada last spring, I'm trying to learn more about the Arabic occupation of Spain and the Reconquista. I've had little luck finding books on the subjects. If you know of any I'd appreciate hearing of them.
Thanks!
I can recommendAfter visiting Granada last spring, I'm trying to learn more about the Arabic occupation of Spain and the Reconquista. I've had little luck finding books on the subjects. If you know of any I'd appreciate hearing of them.
Thanks!
How funny is it that I was writing this very thing at the same time!! Cheers, brain buddy!IBERIA, written in the 1960's by James Michener. It is about the history of Iberia, but has some really interesting alternative info regarding the Muslim arrival, presence and departure.
The Wikipedia page for ‘Moorish occupation of Spain’ has an impressive reference list.After visiting Granada last spring, I'm trying to learn more about the Arabic occupation of Spain and the Reconquista. I've had little luck finding books on the subjects. If you know of any I'd appreciate hearing of them.
Thanks!
Tales of the Alhambra, Washington IrvingAfter visiting Granada last spring, I'm trying to learn more about the Arabic occupation of Spain and the Reconquista. I've had little luck finding books on the subjects. If you know of any I'd appreciate hearing of them.
Thanks!
I thoroughly enjoyed and would recommend “The Ornament of the World” by Maria Rosa Menocal. The subtitle is “How Muslims, Jews, and Christians created a culture of tolerance in medieval Spain.” The book covers broad politics of the era, but the focus is on the rich artistic and cultural climate.After visiting Granada last spring, I'm trying to learn more about the Arabic occupation of Spain and the Reconquista. I've had little luck finding books on the subjects. If you know of any I'd appreciate hearing of them.
Thanks!
I like Maria Rosa Menocal's Ornament of the World. She provides an interesting and beautiful background how Muslims came to Spain, how the caliphates developed southern Spain (al-Andalus / Andalusia) with the introduction of innovations in arts, literature, philosophy, politics, and science that resulted to the harmonious synergy of Muslims, Jews, and Christians in medieval Spain.After visiting Granada last spring, I'm trying to learn more about the Arabic occupation of Spain and the Reconquista. I've had little luck finding books on the subjects. If you know of any I'd appreciate hearing of them.
Thanks!
Hi Philtration and fellow Coug.
I can help with terminology a bit. Al-Andalus is the most common term for the various Muslim kingdoms in Iberia. This would be your best search term!
Only the first major dynasty, the Umayyad, were actually Arab. This is the classical "golden age" of poetry, art, science, and music that most of us think about when we imagine Al-Andalus.
The other two major kingdoms, Almoravid and Almohad, were Berber dynasties with their capitals in Morocco. These were a bit more fundamentalist and austere. In between the major dynasties al-Andalus was divided between various independent Taifa kingdoms.
I know two novels that might interest you:
Leo Africanus, Amin Maalouf. This is the fictional autobiography of a real historical geographer who was born in Granada, fled the inquisition, and grew up surrounded by Andalusian exiles in Fez. Only the initial chapters deal with al-Andalus, but I'd still highly recommend it.
Sidi, Arturo Pérez-Reverte. El Cid was a Castillian knight who fought for both Christian and Muslim kingdoms. This is an adventure novel based on some of his campaigns. It's an exciting read, and it also makes you realize that the reconquista was far more complex than simply a territorial battle between Catholics and Muslims. El Cid is also a foundational character for modern Spain.
I haven't found a great history book; most of what I've learned has been from general podcasts or books on Spanish history or medieval history where a few chapters will be devoted to al-Andalus.
Hi Philtration and fellow Coug. It's an older book and probably only found deep in the bowels of Holland Library but, The History of Spain, by Louis Bertrand and Sir Charles Petrie, treats Musulman Spain in great detail. I agree with Tincatinker, Ghosts of Spain, by Giles Tremlett, is worthwhile. One final book that I recently finished is Dogs of God, by James Reston, Jr., Columbus, The Inquisition, and the Defeat of the Moors. Happy reading!
Ivar, our Forum Founder is also a Washington State Alum. Go Cougars. I'd sure love some of that Cougar Gold cheese and their wonderful ice cream. Not every University has their own dairy and creamery
Many years ago I took a number of their courses including "The Other 1492", and "Turning Points in Medieval History" by Dorsey Armstrong, PhD, and several of their Greek history courses. They were all well worthwhile, in my opinion.The Great Courses Company has very good courses on Spanish history. There is one which is a little more directly pertinent. It is "The Other 1492" by Teofilo Ruiz. It is a 12 lecture course covering the origins, conduct and consequences of the Reconquista. Highly recommended. You can get it in many public libraries.
Just found "The Alhambra" by Robert Irwin in my local used book store this morning. Very detailed description of the Alhambra and its history, with lots of Muslims in Spain history. I plan to walk from Granada to Cordova next spring with my oldest daughter and her partner. When my wife, son in law and I walked to Granada from Almeria last spring we spent much of a day in the Alhambra. We paid for all day tickets to wander around and read all the guide posts and listen to our radio guides. But this spring when my youngest daughter and I walked to Cordoba from Malaga we paid for a guided tour of the Alcazar in Malaga and then again in the Mesquita in Cordoba, both in English. Felt a little funny at first, lead around by the nose so to speak with a bunch of tourists, but, holy moly we learned so much more by having knowledgeable local guides, one of whom was a university archeologist. So next spring we will have a guided tour of the Alhambra before walking out of Granada. One more thing: walking into Granada on the Camino Mozarabe is rather stunning. Buen Camino
i think they were much more fundamentalist. Many christians and jews had to leave and some of them went to the Escuela de Traductores de Toledo.The other two major kingdoms, Almoravid and Almohad, were Berber dynasties with their capitals in Morocco. These were a bit more fundamentalist and austere. In between the major dynasties al-Andalus was divided between various independent Taifa kingdoms
I joined a tour of the Alhambra with a knowledgeable local guide with university level studies. It was amazing. It felt like I was bring introduced to a family member.Just found "The Alhambra" by Robert Irwin in my local used book store this morning. Very detailed description of the Alhambra and its history, with lots of Muslims in Spain history. I plan to walk from Granada to Cordova next spring with my oldest daughter and her partner. When my wife, son in law and I walked to Granada from Almeria last spring we spent much of a day in the Alhambra. We paid for all day tickets to wander around and read all the guide posts and listen to our radio guides. But this spring when my youngest daughter and I walked to Cordoba from Malaga we paid for a guided tour of the Alcazar in Malaga and then again in the Mesquita in Cordoba, both in English. Felt a little funny at first, lead around by the nose so to speak with a bunch of tourists, but, holy moly we learned so much more by having knowledgeable local guides, one of whom was a university archeologist. So next spring we will have a guided tour of the Alhambra before walking out of Granada. One more thing: walking into Granada on the Camino Mozarabe is rather stunning. Buen Camino
The Byzantines and Arabs preserved the knowledge of Science, Mathematics, Medicine and Engineering from the Romano-Greco world. When the Western Roman church became dominant much of this knowledge was either lost or rejected and eventually had to be relearned from the Arabic world.I know where thats coming from but they weren't dark ages for the people that lived 'em. Just look at the textiles, the jewellery, the statuary, the social structures, the emergence of cohesive religious practice before the impositions of Rome. They are only "dark" because for centuries no-one was prepared to shine a light into the gloom
yes yes yes was in second grade could hardly read and fell in love with it.Tales of the Alhambra, Washington Irving
Amazon/ kindle has someAfter visiting Granada last spring, I'm trying to learn more about the Arabic occupation of Spain and the Reconquista. I've had little luck finding books on the subjects. If you know of any I'd appreciate hearing of them.
Thanks!
Internet makes it a lot easier than printing to spread garbage. But that doesn’t mean there isn’t a lot of garbage in print. I encountered a book in a library on the Pearl Harbor invasion that starts out with “… a day like any other. Children getting ready for school; fathers getting ready for work …"What [internet] fails to do is filter out the lumps
Not sure I understand your point , but am assuming you are trying to make one.Internet makes it a lot easier than printing to spread garbage. But that doesn’t mean there isn’t a lot of garbage in print. I encountered a book in a library on the Pearl Harbor invasion that starts out with “… a day like any other. Children getting ready for school; fathers getting ready for work …"
Written long before internet: “history is written by the winner” and “the lie goes around the world before the truth gets its pants on"
Great acourses has a class on “The Other 1492”. Have it and recommend.After visiting Granada last spring, I'm trying to learn more about the Arabic occupation of Spain and the Reconquista. I've had little luck finding books on the subjects. If you know of any I'd appreciate hearing of them.
Thanks!
I agree history is always an interpretation. in hard copy or not. Yes we are missing accounts from the non Spanish side. When I went to school in Spain of course we learnt 1492 America was discovered , ok thats a topic by itself and the last moorish califat ended. We third graders assumed the moors went back over the sea. Only there was no place to go back to. Nobody told us about the rich jewish culture and its end then. They had no where to go. So where are the books written by the “looser” of that war? I think that’s your point?Internet makes it a lot easier than printing to spread garbage. But that doesn’t mean there isn’t a lot of garbage in print. I encountered a book in a library on the Pearl Harbor invasion that starts out with “… a day like any other. Children getting ready for school; fathers getting ready for work …"
Written long before internet: “history is written by the winner” and “the lie goes around the world before the truth gets its pants on"
Point is to clarify the remark about internet failing to filter out “lumps”. Probability of something in a library book being wrong is less than that of something online—but it’s still not zero. If a space alien encountered the material from my high school class in “World History” they might conclude that the “world” is USA and western Europe.I agree history is always an interpretation. in hard copy or not. … … I think that’s your point?
Isn’t it? ( sarcasm mode off).Point is to clarify the remark about internet failing to filter out “lumps”. Probability of something in a library book being wrong is less than that of something online—but it’s still not zero. If a space alien encountered the material from my high school class in “World History” they might conclude that the “world” is USA and western Europe.
But that doesn’t mean there isn’t a lot of garbage in print. I encountered a book in a library on the Pearl Harbor invasion that starts out with “… a day like any other. Children getting ready for school; fathers getting ready for work …"
The attack occurred on Sunday morning. There wasn't any school and not so many were going to work.Not sure I understand your point , but am assuming you are trying to make one.
Cardenal Cisneros was who ordered the destruction. Obviously, it was against the previous agreement before the surrender. Yes, for this and other similar things the queen was not very trustworthy.When the Catholic monarchs finally reconquered the Iberian peninsular, Queen Isabella ordered the destruction of all Moorish writings except those concerning medicine. there was a recent case of hidden Moorish writings being rediscovered during building work in Spain.
Queen Isabel and King Ferdinand ordered the expulsion of the Jews from Spain in 1492, signing the order in the Alhambra on Tisha b’Av, the anniversary of the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. The Jews expulsion, after more than a milinium on the Iberian Peninsula, changed the course of history. Though via a somewhat different process, timing, and reason, the Muslims were also expelled.Cardenal Cisneros was who ordered the destruction. Obviously, it was against the previous agreement before the surrender. Yes, for this and other similar things the queen was not very trustworthy.
Queen Isabel and King Ferdinand ordered the expulsion of the Jews from Spain in 1492, signing the order in the Alhambra on Tisha b’Av, the anniversary of the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. The Jews expulsion, after more than a milinium on the Iberian Peninsula, changed the course of history. Though via a somewhat different process, timing, and reason, the Muslims were also expelled..
A lot of that is a myth, or if you like, let us never forget that the Muslims practiced the systematic destruction of any and all literature that they considered to be blasphemous, which would have included a vast amount of Iberian illuminated manuscripts as well as most of the Christian literature.Let us never forget that the Muslims brought philosophy and medicine into Andalucia and Spain when other religions were still living in the " dark ages ".
Sorry, but this is nonsense.When the Western Roman church became dominant much of this knowledge was either lost or rejected and eventually had to be relearned from the Arabic world.
“Legitimate empire expansion” is an interesting concept, too …What seems was once legitimate empire expansion now seems viewed in a much less kindly light.
Yes, there were tensions in Al Alandalus. Even in the Muslims society. There were two groups: the arab + muladies and the bereber. The muladies were the Spanish converts. The bereber group had always the worse territories and didn't like it. Even today there are tensions between Arabs and Berebers in Morocco.Myth of the Andalusian Paradise has also piqued my interest. I did a MOOC course in Spanish about medieval manuscripts some time ago where it was mentioned in passing that the convivencia was more coexistence in the same space than living together in harmony. I wonder whether the author mentions the famous poem about Roncesvalles? I read that it was more a PR piece than factual description. Currently, however, I have downloaded a “scathing review” of the book (by S. J. Pearce) aYes
In a space much smaller than a street in Dublin, igual. Tuppence looking down on tuppence ha'penny. Or the other way around!Yes, there were tensions in Al Alandalus. Even in the Muslims society. There were two groups: the arab + muladies and the bereber. The muladies were the Spanish converts. The bereber group had always the worse territories and didn't like it. Even today there are tensions between Arabs and Berebers in Morocco.
Quite.where it was mentioned in passing that the convivencia was more coexistence in the same space than living together in harmony.
There's an interesting documentary on Netflix called 'A Short History of the Moors'.After visiting Granada last spring, I'm trying to learn more about the Arabic occupation of Spain and the Reconquista. I've had little luck finding books on the subjects. If you know of any I'd appreciate hearing of them.
Thanks!
After visiting Granada last spring, I'm trying to learn more about the Arabic occupation of Spain and the Reconquista. I've had little luck finding books on the subjects. If you know of any I'd appreciate hearing of them.
Thanks!
Thank you. I rarely use it, but my neighbour gave me access so I have just watched it. Such a long and complex story. I was briefly in Morocco some years ago, and saw a lot of contradictions...There's an interesting documentary on Netflix called 'A Short History of the Moors'.
I agree to a point that the migrating tribes over ran the Western Roman empire and that the infrastructure degraded and repositories pf knowledge (not just monasteries) were looted. However the Roman church which became dominant, resisted any knowledge that did not conform to its values. The church became suspicious of things including bathing! Science and Astronomy were viewed with suspicion and anything that did not agree with Church views could end with a burning at the stake for heresy!Sorry, but this is nonsense.
What actually happened in the West is that the Germanic conquerers viewed the riches of the Western (Catholic) Empire as nothing more than loot and plunder, and they devastated the libraries of the West so that, by quantity, most of the texts were lost through ransack and plundering ; AND the Roman infrastructures of the schools and the copyists and everything that had existed for the dissemination of knowledge was wrecked through the creation of local territories ruled by warlords in place of the centralised infrastructures that had been created by Rome.
To blame this on the Church is unhistorical.
This is complete nonsense.the Roman church which became dominant, resisted any knowledge that did not conform to its values. The church became suspicious of things including bathing! Science and Astronomy were viewed with suspicion and anything that did not agree with Church views could end with a burning at the stake for heresy!
There has been an astronomical observatory at the Vatican since the 16tb Century.The church became suspicious of things including bathing! Science and Astronomy were viewed with suspicion and anything that did not agree with Church views could end with a burning at the stake for heresy!
There has been an astronomical observatory at the Vatican since the 16tb Century.
Nor I would say does posting historical falsehoods and slanders claiming the Church as being solely to blame for the devastating effects of the fall of the Western Empire.On a general note : Answering here with " nonsense " does not help the dialogue.
I repeat my appreciation of your suggestion to watch that documentary. I also repeat my deep appreciation of the willingness of many forum members who actually know so much more than I do to share their knowledge.There's an interesting documentary on Netflix called 'A Short History of the Moors'.
I will try to find a free way, without a time limit, to access some of his material. Thank you. I don't usually subscribe to paid content. Unless by real design! Thanks again.Back to the original post: Philip Daileader’s 3-part Great Courses series on the Middle Ages is fantastic. The first set, The Early Middle Ages, includes a chapter on al-Andalus. Isabella and Ferdinand are in the third, The Late Middle Ages.
I’d recommend this for anyone interested in the Middle Ages. I listened to it after walking the Le Puy route & realizing how little I knew about the period - the Via Podiensis passes through some amazing medieval landscapes.
I don’t recall any specific chapters on Santiago or pilgrimages, sadly.
I learnt from this thread that the English name for Isabel de Castilla is Isabella and then I checked on Internet and saw Isabellas ( Italian name) for queens of Portugal and France. Why not Elisabeth?In Spanish we always use Spanish names: Isabel, Carlos, Enrique for foreign kings and queens.Back to the original post: Philip Daileader’s 3-part Great Courses series on the Middle Ages is fantastic. The first set, The Early Middle Ages, includes a chapter on al-Andalus. Isabella and Ferdinand are in the third, The Late Middle Ages
As for Isabella instead of Isabel I saw this speculation:I learnt from this thread that the English name for Isabel de Castilla is Isabella and then I checked on Internet and saw Isabellas ( Italian name) for queens of Portugal and France.
Makes senseAs for Isabella instead of Isabel I saw this speculation:
Probably because official communication between Spain and England took place in Latin in which la reina Ysabel de Castilla was known as Isabella regina Castilliæ etc.
The Monarchy, not "the Jews," ran the economy. That one monarch, 150 years before 1492, appointed a Jew as Treasurer does not mean that "Jews ran the economy." Although I'm sure you did not mean it this way, this is an antisemitic trope that gets recycled over and over again in order to blame the Jews for whatever social, economic or moral failing allegedly needs to be redressed.Isabela and Fernando really shot themselves in the foot with the expulsion of the Sephardic Jews. They were advisors, doctors and bankers to the queen and king and virtually ran the economy of Spain at the time. ... No Buen Camino for Jews and Moors in those times.
The Jews have lived in many countries for long periods where they considered themselves being from a different nationality and even speaking a different language. This was not the case of Spain because they were Spanish ( Sephardim) and spoke Spanish as their first language. When I visited Istambul forty years ago I talked with Sephardic people in Spanish ( Ladino) and they told me they were first Jews, second Spanish and third Turks. So Jews had necessarily to live good periods in Spain to feel that way.Nor were Jews free from persecution before they were expelled. Indeed, the history of Spain is replete with forced conversions, enslavement, expulsions, legal restrictions, pogroms, and massacres. Yes, the 15th Century was not "good for the Jews" in Spain, but except for a very, very few brief years, neither were the centuries before them.
That Sephardic Jews can code-switch between Spanish and Ladino (just as Ashkenazi Jews can code-switch between German, Russian or Polish and Yiddish, which like Ladino is a hybrid language) does not make them "Spaniards." Yes, from time to time in Spain there were thriving Jewish communities (as there were, from time to time, in Russia, Poland, and Germany), but Jews were never considered Spaniards. So, for example, like Jews all over Europe, beginning in the 13th century, Spain required Jews to wear yellow badges (the badges which eventually became the Nazi yellow stars) so that they could be identified as Jews, not Spaniards.The Jews have lived in many countries for long periods where they considered themselves being from a different nationality and even speaking a different language. This was not the case of Spain because they were Spanish ( Sephardim) and spoke Spanish as their first language. When I visited Istambul forty years ago I talked with Sephardic people in Spanish ( Ladino) and they told me they were first Jews, second Spanish and third Turks. So Jews had necessarily to live good periods in Spain to feel that way.
The idea of being Spanish is a comparative modern one and probably did not exist before 1492. Even now, if you tell a. Basque, or a Catalan, or a Galician they are Spanish, you will get a polite but firm correction.That Sephardic Jews can code-switch between Spanish and Ladino (just as Ashkenazi Jews can code-switch between German, Russian or Polish and Yiddish, which like Ladino is a hybrid language) does not make them "Spaniards." Yes, from time to time in Spain there were thriving Jewish communities (as there were, from time to time, in Russia, Poland, and Germany), but Jews were never considered Spaniards. So, for example, like Jews all over Europe, beginning in the 13th century, Spain required Jews to wear yellow badges (the badges which eventually became the Nazi yellow stars) so that they could be identified as Jews, not Spaniards.
Now, don't get me wrong -- I love Spain. I go there every chance I get. I plan to spend much of my retirement there. And I love the richness of the Jewish history of Spain; I own several pieces of ancient Judaica from Spain. But that doesn't negate the fact that the history of Jews in Spain is one filled with persecution and sorrow.
Yes, in Galicia you can find some urban people, most of them Spanish speakers, who say that they are only Galicians, but it would be very strange in the rural where most of them are Galician speakers.The idea of being Spanish is a comparative modern one and probably did not exist before 1492. Even now, if you tell a. Basque, or a Catalan, or a Galician they are Spanish, you will get a polite but firm correction.
As one of the forum members who is not very familiar with Madrid I had to google a bit. M-30 is one of the modern mosques in Madrid that serves its current Muslim population, right?In Spain it is possible to visit the mosque in M30 Madrid that is worth it. In Ceuta and Melilla it would be possible but not easy. In Morocco it is not allowed except in two cases.
Be careful here though, as orthographic norms established after about the 18th Century do very frequently affect modern transliterations of Ancient and Mediaeval texts, apart from which it was (and still can be) quite frequent that Christian names can in Mediterranean Europe normally be rendered into their local variants, as opposed to the frequent English usage of seeking whenever possible to retain an original spelling.As for Isabella instead of Isabel I saw this speculation:
Probably because official communication between Spain and England took place in Latin in which la reina Ysabel de Castilla was known as Isabella regina Castilliæ etc.
There are more mosques in Madrid but not interesting to visit. This one has a lot of marble and a quite big prayer room.As one of the forum members who is not very familiar with Madrid I had to google a bit. M-30 is one of the modern mosques in Madrid that serves its current Muslim population, right?
La Mezquita de la M-30 vuelve a abrir sus puertas a no musulmanes por Ramadán
La popular Mezquita de la M-30 de Madrid, la más grande de España, vuelve abrir sus puertas este mes de Ramadán a no musulmanes con visitas guiadas que permiten conocer el recinto, profundizar en la cultura islámica y vivir la ruptura del ayuno con los fieles que acuden regularmente al templo.www.eldiario.es
A fellow checking in to our albergue had a Spanish name on a French ID card. When I asked whether he preferred Spanish or French (language), his companion exclaimed VASCO! But when I gave the same person a booklet in Basque, he looked at it for a few seconds, then handed it back and said “French.”The idea of being Spanish is a comparative modern one and probably did not exist before 1492. Even now, if you tell a. Basque, or a Catalan, or a Galician they are Spanish, you will get a polite but firm correction.
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