OBSOLETE COVID THREAD Lockdowns and Reopenings.

[Marbe2]

The question is whether, as of June 7, Americans will even need to have their passport number shown on the document that proves their vaccination. Whether it is not enough when the documentation that they carry with them to Spain shows their full name and the specific details about the vaccination itself. Perhaps I didn't make this clear in my previous comment.

Can’t happen because there is no standardized mechanism to do so.

I was referring to using PP number just to obtain for QR code.

 

[Kathor1]

Can’t happen because there is no standardized mechanism to do so.

I don't understand that comment.

I was referring to using PP number just to obtain for QR code.

You can use your passport number as the personal identification number for obtaining the QR code. Below are your choices when you start filling in the obligatory SpTH form to obtain the obligatory QR code that you must have when you arrive at an airport in Spain. I've made screenshots of the current form so that we have a clear idea of what we are talking about.

 

[Kathor1]

It will take a while until all the changes of today have sunk in that Spain has introduced.

Vaccinated pilgrims have an advantage when crossing land borders from France and from Portugal into Spain. For the time being, both France and Portugal are on Spain's list of risk areas. This means, as of today June 7, that pilgrims have to be in possession of a vaccination certificate or, if they are not vaccinated, they need to be in possession of a document that confirms a negative result of a recent PCR test or of an EU approved antigen test.

The new rules have been published by the Spanish government (numerous links in forum posts), and these news have started to make their way into the news media. I've just noticed the first articles in Portuguese.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Just remember there's a general rule in the EU that no special measures are in place when crossing the internal land borders between its Member States, unless particular measures have been implemented.

Worth keeping in mind for foot pilgrims especially.

 

[Kathor1]

Spain's new rules have started to make their way into the news media.

Spain imposes Covid-19 test on anyone crossing the land border with Portugal​

The Spanish government has decided to impose a proof of vaccination, recovery from the disease or negative tests for Covid-19 on all who cross the border with Portugal. A measure that was not agreed in advance with the Portuguese government. ​

​

Although the borders are open, the Spanish have warned that they have mobile controls near the border and the fines are around 3,000 € in case of non-compliance with any of these health rules.​

​

The quote above is taken from this evening's publication of the Portuguese newspaper Diário de Notícias.

If you want to read it yourself, click here: https://translate.google.com/transl...-cruze-a-fronteira-com-portugal-13811913.html

 

[JabbaPapa]

Wow !!

Well that's crazy !!

It's not what the laws you linked to yesterday indicated. My hope is that the journalist is simply as confused as everyone else by Spain's excessively laconic communications regarding risk & non-risk countries.

 

[Kathor1]

It's not what the laws you linked to yesterday indicated. My hope is that the journalist is simply as confused as everyone else by Spain's excessively laconic communications regarding risk & non-risk countries.

The journalist is not confused. It is in the Resolucíon. I quoted the passage already in an earlier comment.

 

[JabbaPapa]

The journalist is not confused. It is in the Resolucíon. I quoted the passage already in an earlier comment.

Yes but earlier laws establishing exemptions persist, don't they ?

Whatever else, it's mud clear that Spain has fumbled its communications on this one.

 

[Kathor1]

Those last minute changes regarding Portugal are very concerning.

No.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Maybe the UK and the Spanish governments know something we don't know yet.

The India variant is resistant to some degree to the antibodies artificially created by the vaccines, about which I refuse to say more in this forum, and this has made some European Governments nervous.

 

[Tincatinker]

Dunnit just break your heart. Here we are in the middle, not the end, the middle, of a global pandemic and the firm grip on reality that some people exhibit is best expressed by this widely quoted statement: "it really spoiled our holiday, totally". And, bless 'em, it wasn't mortality rates or longterm health effects or even the wipe-out of the cared-for community that spoiled their holiday it was having to bung an extra €1000 to everybody's favourite airline.

Be careful out there. It might not bite yer bum but it'll have a good chew at yer wallet.

 

[C clearly]

"it really spoiled our holiday, totally".

Furthermore...

"I was pretty furious because they should have told us to watch out if we were going to Portugal so everyone would have known."

I guess they missed the fact there is still a pandemic and complicated travel warnings!

 

[alexwalker]

I relax, fully vaccinated, and I wait and see. Firstly, the EU has to set up a straightened, understandable set of (simple) rules, then give us the vaccine app that documents our state of safety, and then we can go. It is all a bit premature right now, but by July 1st I believe much will be sorted out.

Furthermore...

"I was pretty furious because they should have told us to watch out if we were going to Portugal so everyone would have known."

I guess they missed the fact there is still a pandemic and complicated travel warnings!

Reminds me of one of these articles about travel insurance complaints being filed in the hope of getting a refund:

"We didn't know that so many people in Spain insisted on talking Spanish: They did not speak any English!"

 

[jungleboy]

Spain's new rules have started to make their way into the news media.

Spain imposes Covid-19 test on anyone crossing the land border with Portugal​

The Spanish government has decided to impose a proof of vaccination, recovery from the disease or negative tests for Covid-19 on all who cross the border with Portugal. A measure that was not agreed in advance with the Portuguese government. ​

​

Although the borders are open, the Spanish have warned that they have mobile controls near the border and the fines are around 3,000 € in case of non-compliance with any of these health rules.​

​

The quote above is taken from this evening's publication of the Portuguese newspaper Diário de Notícias.

If you want to read it yourself, click here: https://translate.google.com/transl...-cruze-a-fronteira-com-portugal-13811913.html

We also read this today and it affects us as we’re just over a week away from crossing from Portugal into Spain on foot.

 

[Marbe2]

We also read this today and it affects us as we’re just over a week away from crossing from Portugal into Spain on foot.

Hopeyou can get-an RAT…

 

[jungleboy]

Well, if you are heading towards Valença-Tui bridge, you can get a €25 RAT (Rapid Antigen Test) in Valença (link) - certainly better to pay €25 then to risk €3000 (I'm guessing you haven't been vaccinated). And Bom Caminho by the way!

Thank you but that won’t be our crossing as we’ll be on the Geira instead. There are a lot of moving parts here re: Portugal’s response and the possibility that I could receive the single J&J jab before crossing.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Thank you but that won’t be our crossing as we’ll be on the Geira instead. There are a lot of moving parts here re: Portugal’s response and the possibility that I could receive the single J&J jab before crossing.

You'd still need the test, as 14 days delay after the jab are required -- but it might help for the return journey.

 

[Kathor1]

It is not surprising that the requirements change with the ongoing lifting of numerous public health related restrictions while incidence rates are still moderate to high throughout the EU and that includes Portugal. Vaccinated people will carry their vaccination certificates and that's it for them, and non-vaccinated people, who are decreasing in numbers every day, will have to be prepared to take tests when it is required of them.

 

[jungleboy]

It is not surprising that the requirements change with the ongoing lifting of numerous public health related restrictions while incidence rates are still moderate to high throughout the EU and that includes Portugal. Vaccinated people will carry their vaccination certificates and that's it for them, and non-vaccinated people, who are decreasing in numbers every day, will have to be prepared to take tests when it is required of them.

I am prepared to take a test, that’s not the problem. In February I took 10 tests in three weeks as part of my work at the alpine skiing world championships. The issue for me is whether tests are available near the border on the Geira.

 

[Prentiss Riddle]

My US vaccination certificate also lacks an ID number. Official statements published in May explicitly require a passport or ID number on the certificate. Has that changed?

Good news! I wrote to the Houston consulate and sent an image of my vaccination card. They replied,

"Yes, everything looks correct. Remember to fill the online sanitary form (QR)."

So according to at least one consular official, the ID number is not required. Hooray!

The bad news is that my June trip is off for unrelated reasons. See you on the trail in October, I hope.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Masking will be mandatory this summer at campsites and outdoor group activities in Spain at ages 16+ in groups of no more than 15 or 20 depending on your region.

This is actually a slight relaxation of masking rules, despite appearances, although it does not make explicit that solitary outdoor activities (or those in your usual small group), notably sports & exercise (which includes hiking), are not a part of this mandate. It does repeat the requirement for indoor masking.

 

[JabbaPapa]

The United States has downgraded its warning on travel to France, Italy, Portugal, and Spain from level 4 (no non-essential travel) to 3 (travel permitted for the vaccinated). The UK remains in level 3.

 

[JabbaPapa]

No Municipal lockdowns remain in Galicia.

Lockdowns persist only in a small number of Municipalities in Andalucía.

 

[Kathor1]

I am prepared to take a test, that’s not the problem. In February I took 10 tests in three weeks as part of my work at the alpine skiing world championships. The issue for me is whether tests are available near the border on the Geira.

Two new pieces are published in today's edition of the BOE:

• Resolución de 8 de junio de 2021 about Fronteras. Control sanitario
• Orden SND/568/2021, de 8 de junio about medidas sanitarias.

If you haven't heard about it yet, you may read about it in today's news.

• When crossing the land border from Portugal into Spain: No obligation about prior PCR or antigen test. The corresponding paragraph of the legislation published on Saturday is annulled as of today.
  
  
• When crossing the land border from France into Spain: Obligation to carry either vaccination certificate, negative test result certificate or recovery certificate.

Continued Bom Caminho to @jungleboy and @Wendy Werneth!

 

[Kathor1]

When crossing the land border from France into Spain: Obligation to carry either vaccination certificate, negative test result certificate or recovery certificate.

Permitted tests:

• NAAT (PCR and similar);
• RAT (antigen, brandname must be on the official EU list).

 

[Kathor1]

Aena tweeted yesterday that, on July 1, they will open Terminals T2 and T3 at Madrid airport again. I also saw their announcement of the new passport control in Barcelona. There are three lanes: World - United Kingdom - EU/Norway, Lichtenstein, Iceland/Switzerland.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1402577154550939652

 

[hieudovan]

As of today, 12 June 2021, fully vaccinated visitors can travel to France (and Spain). Good news for pilgrims.
"If you’re vaccinated, come to France. But only if you got one of the four EU-approved vaccines: Pfizer, AstraZeneca, Moderna or Johnson & Johnson. That works for Americans – as long as they can produce official proof of vaccination –" Buen camino. Bon Chemin.

 

[JabbaPapa]

The UK has officially delayed full reopening to July 19th. Many cases of Delta.

This will negatively affect travel from and especially to the UK as quarantine measures are likely to remain in place.

I shall mention 45-cycle PCR testing only in passing.

 

[Bristle Boy]

The UK has officially delayed full reopening to July 19th. Many cases of Delta.

This will negatively affect travel from and especially to the UK as quarantine measures are likely to remain in place.

I shall mention 45-cycle PCR testing only in passing.

This is England only and not the UK. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have yet to decide on relaxing their restrictions.

 

[JabbaPapa]

This is England only and not the UK. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have yet to decide on relaxing their restrictions.

Wales had already declared that they would delay reopening beyond June 21st.

Besides, this news concerns travel from and to the UK not local conditions -- though Northern Ireland should indeed be considered differently, from the possibility of entering the EU by land.

 

[SioCamino]

Wales had already declared that they would delay reopening beyond June 21st.

Besides, this news concerns travel from and to the UK not local conditions -- though Northern Ireland should indeed be considered differently, from the possibility of entering the EU by land.

Just to point out that under current restrictions, entry to the Republic of Ireland from Northern Ireland is not subject to quarantine as long as you have spent the previous 14 days in NI.... Please refer to https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/b4020-travelling-to-ireland-during-the-covid-19-pandemic/ for advice

"If you arrive via Northern Ireland and have been overseas in the 14 days prior to your arrival in Ireland, then you must complete an electronic COVID-19 Passenger Locator Form online.
The e-receipt must be saved for 14 days after arrival and produced upon request to a Member of An Garda Síochána.
Once you have arrived in Ireland you must comply with the health restrictions in place in Ireland."

 

[JabbaPapa]

Masking is to cease being mandatory outdoors in France tomorrow.

Additionally, there will be no more curfew from Sunday onwards.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Following some backlash over the 4-week delay to full reopening, the UK is reportedly set to permit those returning from "amber" list countries, including France, Spain, and Portugal to avoid quarantine if they have been fully vaccinated. (Daily Telegraph)

 

[Kathor1]

Numerous EU countries announced changes during recent days, mostly easing or abolishing restrictions for vaccinated travellers, occasionally reintroducing or reenforcing restrictions or bans in connection with the delta variant. https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/ is a good aggregator for such news. It is an independent website.

 

[VNwalking]

Bookmarked. Thank you, @Kathar1na .
I'm not travelling soon so am not following the rapidly changing landscape of restrictions. But this will come in handy later.

 

[JabbaPapa]

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/

Good site.

France has added Canada to its "green list" of countries from which non-essential travel is permitted.

 

[MinaKamina]

Attention all Germans in Portugal:

The German federal government has put Portugal on the list of virus-variant areas. This means that people re-entering Germany must abide by particularly strict rules.

The classification is initially valid for a fortnight from midnight on Tuesday (29 June). However, an extension is possible.

For returning travellers, the classification as a virus-variant area means a far-reaching transport ban and strict isolation obligation: 14 days of quarantine without the possibility to "test free" after five days (by means of a negative Corona test). There are no exceptions for vaccinated and recovered persons. In addition, one must already be tested for Corona before travelling to Germany. A PCR test may be a maximum of 72 hours old, an antigen test 24 hours.

 

[Kathor1]

I've not checked the official sources because my knowledge of Portuguese is just too limited: I see news this morning that say that Portugal will introduce measures to the effect that all travellers from the UK to mainland Portugal who have not been jabbed must quarantine for 14 days.

I can't tell whether this applies only for unvaccinated travellers coming from the UK or for any unvaccinated travellers from the outside, or only from areas that have been declared as an area of concern because of variants.

Closing the stable door ...

Apparently, the new Portuguese law takes effect on Monday 28 June and continues until 11 July.

 

[Kathor1]

I've not checked the official sources because my knowledge of Portuguese is just too limited

I just couldn't live without checking. So here it is: Despacho n.º 6326-A/2021, published today in the Diário da República.

"This order takes effect from 00:00 on June 28, 2021 and until 23:59 on July 11, 2021." This may come as a bit of a surprise to those who are already in the air and on their way from the UK to Portugal this morning ...

The USA is now on the same Portuguese government list as Australia, New Zealand, Japan and a few others.

 

[JabbaPapa]

The Portuguese quarantine requirement is for all non-vaccinated travellers from the UK.

In other news, UK travellers to the Balearic islands must now either be vaccinated or provide a negative test, though they may still travel without such need to mainland Spain.

Finally, in good news, the whole of Italy is now a white zone with few remaining restrictions -- masking outdoors is no longer required, and only some minor rules for indoors remain, mainly masking.

Also, US travelers may now enter Spain not only if vaccinated, but also with a recent negative test (and I'd presume the third standard possibility, proof of recent recovery from the disease).

 

[JabbaPapa]

There is some confusion about travelling from the UK to Spain, with some reports referring to the Balearic islands only, others suggesting the new rules are for the whole of Spain.

In either case, it is clear that permission is to be granted for those either vaccinated or with a PCR test only ; no antigen nor proof of recent recovery accepted.

Hopefully greater clarity in the scope of these rule changes will emerge in coming days.

 

[Kathor1]

There is some confusion about travelling from the UK to Spain, with some reports referring to the Balearic islands only, others suggesting the new rules are for the whole of Spain..

instead of publishing the new rules and then announcing that new rules have been published and everyone can read them, there‘s a somewhat unclear announcement for the news media that causes confusion. At the end of the day it transpired that the new decree will be published on Tuesday or Wednesday morning and will be applicable a few days later ... this Friday perhaps ...

 

[Kathor1]

the new decree will be published on Tuesday or Wednesday morning and will be applicable a few days later ... this Friday perhaps ...

The new Spanish decree, amending Orden INT/657/2020, was published this morning.

• The UK has been removed from Spain's white list of safe countries.
• Australia, New Zealand, the United States and a few others remain on Spain's white list.
• The new rules will take effect on Friday 2 July at 00:00.

I am not a lawyer but I am confident to know what it means:

• Americans, travelling from the USA, can enter Spain on tourist trips and do not need proof of vaccination or of a negative Covid-19 test. This has already been the case for some time.
  
  
• Brits, travelling from the UK, can enter Spain on tourist trips and need to have proof of vaccination or a diagnostic certificate recognised by the Spanish Health ministry, i.e. negative PCR tests , certain antigen tests and antibody tests. This is new. Earlier, no such proof had been required for travellers from the UK since the middle of May.

Edited to correct: Having a closer look at the texts it appears to me that it has to be a PCR test for British travellers from the UK to Spain. Diagnostics tests have to comply with point 7.1 of the Resolution of the Spanish Health Ministery of 5 June 2021. Point 7.1 mentions only NAAT (PCR) tests and NOT antigen tests and NOT proof of recovery.

 

[Marbe2]

All of these changing decrees are a reminder to me to keep my options open and flexible!

We don’t need vaccination proof, or tests this week, but we may by the time we leave in September…if by then we are still permitted in Spain?

Though we are vaccinated, we have located sites for Covid testing, both PCR and Quick Antigen testing just in case the rules change.

And, we will bring those N95 masks with us to wear indoors even though we are staying in private rooms.

The World Health Organization (WHO) has urged fully vaccinated people to continue wearing masks, follow social distancing and other safety measures to contain the spread of the more deadly and contagious Delta variant of the coronavirus, which is spreading rapidly across the globe.
The comments come in the backdrop of WHO admission that the COVID-19 delta variant, first seen in India, is “the most transmissible of the variants identified so far," and warned it is now spreading in at least 85 countries.

As contagious Delta cases surge, WHO urges fully vaccinated to keep masks on

'The global situation is incredibly fragile,' said Maria Van Kerkhove, the WHO's technical lead on COVID-19.

www.livemint.com

 

[Corned Beef]

A bit of a geek one. One of the problems with UK travel to the EU was "data equivalence" where country-country data flows needed a change in legislation. That happened yesterday.

EU recognises UK data protection rules as 'adequate'

The European Commission has granted the UK access to EU data in a key decision that will have significant bearing on post-Brexit relations.

www.rte.ie

There was an earlier announcement [UK-internal] of linking our national health system with passport information so the vaccination status could be linked to your passport.

A further [UK internal] report says "Health Secretary Sajid Javid is ready to integrate the NHS app showing vaccination status with the EU’s green pass system, so the app can work as a vaccine passport."

So there may be an announcement soon that UK residents with the correct [EU approved] vaccinations could use the EU pass.

 

[Former member 49149]

Dear @Corned Beef, I get lost with references to this, that and the next thing.I am much more taken by the fact that your name is well known as a kind of shorthand for someone hard of hearing in my native surroundings... end of distraction from the thread...

 

[Kathor1]

your name is well known as a kind of shorthand for someone hard of hearing in my native surroundings

That was news to me! Also news to me that there is rhyming slang elsewhere than in London ... thanks, @kirkie.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Dear @Corned Beef, I get lost with references to this, that and the next thing.I am much more taken by the fact that your name is well known as a kind of shorthand for someone hard of hearing in my native surroundings... end of distraction from the thread...

Yes, and upon a closer look at his avatar it is quite apparent and interesting to note.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I too have seen that rumour that the UK and EU digital certificates will soon be inter-compatible.

As for pilgrims, both the US and Canada are now on the EU list of third countries from which restriction-free travel is permitted. Still, check rules for your country of destination, which may have particular rules different from that norm.

 

[sunwanderer]

rhyming slang

Sorry, I don't understand.

 

[CalgaryLynn]

I too have seen that rumour that the UK and EU digital certificates will soon be inter-compatible.

As for pilgrims, both the US and Canada are now on the EU list of third countries from which restriction-free travel is permitted. Still, check rules for your country of destination, which may have particular rules different from that norm.

Finally, I was wondering why the US was on the list and not Canada, considering that we have 13% more of our population vaccinated than the US. Not trying to be controversial but just looking at the numbers, it didn't make sense to me. Thanks for the good news! We are still encouraged not to do non-essential travel but I am assuming that will change soon.

 

[Albertagirl]

We are still encouraged not to do non-essential travel but I am assuming that will change soon.

I sure hope so. Last night I found myself looking for a place in Logrono where I could get a PCR test before going home the end of November, just in case they are still demanded of fully vaccinated Canadians then.

 

[Kathor1]

I was wondering why the US was on the list and not Canada

There are a number of factors that determine whether a country is added or removed from the EU‘s recommended list of “safe” countries. Canada will be added to this list before this week is over.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Most remaining restrictions as they might affect pilgrims were lifted in France yesterday. No more limits on how many people in bars and restaurants for instance.

The principle remaining one, as concerns pilgrims, is the masking mandate indoors and in crowds.

 

[JabbaPapa]

The Government in the UK has indicated that all masking and social distancing measures shall end in England on July 19th, i.e. become voluntary. Unsure yet what this might mean for quarantine rules.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Unsure yet what this might mean for quarantine rules.

The current UK government view appears to be that the fully vaccinated might avoid quarantine from July 19th.

The actual decisions are to be provided in detail on July 12th.

 

[JabbaPapa]

So from July 19th the fully vaccinated will indeed be able to avoid quarantine when returning to the UK, though they will need a negative test in the 72 hours prior, plus a further negative PCR test on arrival.

I am personally quite relieved that I do not live in the UK.

This does nevertheless mean that those wishing to undertake a Camino or Francigena from England can just about do so from that date.

 

[Kathor1]

A new amendment to Orden INT/657/2020 was published yesterday. It adds a further ten countries to the Spanish white list. Canada has now joined Australia, New Zealand and the USA on this list. Which means that every traveller from these countries is welcome to Spain and no proof of vaccination or test results is required for entering Spain when you travel from these countries directly to Spain. Valid as of yesterday.

 

[MinaKamina]

I quote:


@WHO now reports over 2 dozen countries with “near vertical” sharp rises in cases—mostly #DeltaVariant. Pandemic “Act 2” has begun.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1413931514954489860

If you are out there now: REFUSE to sleep in dorms with closed windows. Just. Don't. Ever.

 

[VNwalking]

If you are out there now: REFUSE to sleep in dorms with closed windows. Just. Don't. Ever.

Agreed; individual accommodation may be the best tactic. Heck, I'd take sleeping under a church porch over a closed albergue room with strangers right now. Hands down.

 

[Albertagirl]

If you are out there now: REFUSE to sleep in dorms with closed windows. Just. Don't. Ever.

As a volunteer hospitalera who is putting myself into an albergue for the sake of the pilgrims, I really wonder how the hostility in this statement reflects consideration for my situation. My intention, expressed in another thread, is to open the windows myself and to make sure that there are no beds in the vicinity of the windows where persons in upper bunks could reach over and shut the windows if they felt cold. There should be enough space where I shall be volunteering to shuffle the bunks in such a configuration. But I strongly suggest that you, if you intend to stay in any albergue, should have a look in the dormitory and leave quietly if it is not set up to your satisfaction. If you try to REFUSE anything to a busy hospitalera, you may find that her response is not what you might wish.

 

[VNwalking]

I really wonder how the hostility in this statement reflects consideration for my situation.

It's assertive, but I wouldn't call it hostile, @Albertagirl.
And it's wise, given the situation.
Refusal can and should be polite.
Like this:

if you intend to stay in any albergue, should have a look in the dormitory and leave quietly if it is not set up to your satisfaction.

I'd be leaving quietly, while at the same time politely letting the hospi know why I'm leaving. Not informing people of risks that they may unknowingly be taking is not helpful, either.

 

[Albertagirl]

Unfortunately, hospitaleros are not in total control of albergue dormitories. Anyone who wants to shut windows will do so. Anyone who wants to leave windows open so that he and his friends can go and get drunk and sneak in after curfew will do so. This happened the last time that I volunteered. The only possible way that I can think to keep the windows open in the dormitory where I shall be serving is to open them myself and to ensure that bunks are well away from the windows, as those in upper bunks next to the windows generally closed them. But if someone wants to pull a chair over to a window to shut it, I can see no way to prevent this from happening. I can put up signs noting that the windows are open for the sake of everyone's health. But serving in an albergue is frequently a struggle with those who cannot see anything but their own comfort. And I shall be there in late November, when it will be cold with the windows open. And of course common blankets to be loaned to pilgrims are no longer permitted. Two of us managing an albergue formerly served by four will do our best, but the thought of being judged because we have limited control over other people's behaviour in time of pandemic is very discouraging to me.

 

[VNwalking]

But serving in an albergue is frequently a struggle with those who cannot see anything but their own comfort

Yes. That cannot be denied.

thought of being judged because we have limited control over other people's behaviour

@Albertagirl, if that were to happen, the judgement would be seriously misplaced. There have been window wars in albergues forever, and they're massively exacerbated by covid. In those situations, neither the hospi nor the albergue can possibly be faulted. It's the people putting their wishes above communal safety who are responsible.

 

[SabsP]

I quote:


@WHO now reports over 2 dozen countries with “near vertical” sharp rises in cases—mostly #DeltaVariant. Pandemic “Act 2” has


If you are out there now: REFUSE to sleep in dorms with closed windows. Just. Don't. Ever.

Thank you for this sobering but neccesary post.

And this is what happens when legislation is like a cheese with big holes. Just one example.

Belgian youngsters with Covid “hop on the plane” to get home

It has emerged that around a score of youngsters, who tested positive for coronavirus in Spain, while on holiday with a travel agency that caters for young people’s leisure needs, didn’t join the main group returning to Belgium in safe conditions, on

www.vrt.be

 

[JabbaPapa]

France is imposing some "vaccination passports" measures from August, requiring people to be vaccinated or to have a negative test to go to a bar, restaurant, or shopping centre, or to get on a train or a plane. This seems excessive to me, and of dubious legality. France is anyway reinstating a state of sanitary emergency as a means to mandate these measures.

Additionally, the tests which have been free, shall cease to be so in September.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Nearly all covid restrictions are being lifted in England on July 19th. Travel restrictions remain for those travelling from non "green" countries, though the fully vaccinated will not need to quarantine upon entering England from "amber" countries such as France or Spain.

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

Additionally, the tests which have been free, shall cease to be so in September.

For tourists the date is Juli 21st.

 

[Former member 60103]

Mid March 2020 I took the decision to cancel flights and put on hold planned walks along the Ebro and Aragon caminos. Last month and now fully vaccinated ( but also unfit) I took a bet on booking new flights for later this year and dusted off the plan.
As it stands at the moment from the UK straight into Spain - Barcelona. I need QR code via the SpTH Spanish Govt online form which can be started now but only be completed 48 hours prior to travel. I need a pre booked PCR test (evidenced) for 2 days after I get back to UK. I will need a PCR test (89 euros) prior to my return flight although this requirement seems to have been changed to a Lateral Flow Test (35 euros) for the fully jabbed - either of which will have to be booked. I will take my vaccine certificate, not because it is required but because everything could change in the month whilst I am in Catalonia/Aragon.
In reality the added hassle is manageable, the risk to myself and others seems to have balanced out although I did add a couple of extra "what if" days to facilitate the PCR test (if it is still needed).
Key to all this is accepting that things will change, any plan, even a month in advance, will likely need to be altered according to circumstance. The way things have been any change will probably be at the last minute.
Don

 

[JabbaPapa]

Don Camillo, the Lateral Flow Test is not valid for travel. You need the other antigen test, which you cannot take yourself but you must go in to have done.

 

[Former member 60103]

Don Camillo, the Lateral Flow Test is not valid for travel. You need the other antigen test, which you cannot take yourself but you must go in to have done.

All noted. I got confused with what actual test is needed to return back into UK -England. Doubtless all will change by September and I will have got my PCR's untangled from my LFT's and not confused with my API's (advance passenger Information) and my SpTH QR code. Nurse, Meds please PDQ.
Don

 

[JabbaPapa]

The rules for entry into France have been toughened from the UK, Spain, and Portugal. The unvaccinated may only travel for essential reasons, must present a negative test less than 24 hours, and must self-isolate for 7 days. The vaccinated need not present an essential reason, but must provide a negative test 72 hours or less, except UK 24 hours.

 

[CalgaryLynn]

All noted. I got confused with what actual test is needed to return back into UK -England. Doubtless all will change by September and I will have got my PCR's untangled from my LFT's and not confused with my API's (advance passenger Information) and my SpTH QR code. Nurse, Meds please PDQ.
Don

I have decided with all the constant changes that I won't even look at what I have to do until the beginning of September. I leave on the 20th...that will give me 3 weeks to do what needs to be done.

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

I have decided with all the constant changes that I won't even look at what I have to do until the beginning of September. I leave on the 20th...that will give me 3 weeks to do what needs to be done.

That's the best thing you can do.

 

[Former member 98118]

I was wondering if in Spain there is a talk about closing borders between regions? Especially between Leon and Galicia. Funny that walking in Spain now I know less about those lockdowns than before I started the Camino. I have a plan to go from Mansilla de las Mulas straight to Vilar de Mazarife because I would prefer not to enter Leon at this time. I have this detour on the Camino map I made for myself

http://tinyurl.com/happypilgrim

After I walk this shortcut I'll post my impressions about going that off Camino way if someone also would prefer to skip Leon.

 

[Albertagirl]

I was wondering if in Spain there is a talk about closing borders between regions? Especially between Leon and Galicia. Funny that walking in Spain now I know less about those lockdowns than before I started the Camino. I have a plan to go from Mansilla de las Mulas straight to Vilar de Mazarife because I would prefer not to enter Leon at this time. I have this detour on the Camino map I made for myself

http://tinyurl.com/happypilgrim

After I walk this shortcut I'll post my impressions about going that off Camino way if someone also would prefer to skip Leon.

Leon would have to be in very bad shape indeed, and private accommodation not available, for me to deliberately skip it. It is my favourite city in Spain and I have spent a couple of days there every time I've been through.

 

[VNwalking]

I have a plan to go from Mansilla de las Mulas straight to Vilar de Mazarife because I would prefer not to enter Leon at this time. I have this detour on the Camino map I made for myself

There was a route posted here last year doing something similar, with some chatter about accommodation:

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/leon-in-lockdown.68618/

Might be useful?

 

[JabbaPapa]

After some confusing to-and-fro, here is the situation for the time being for travel between the UK and France.

UK to France : If you are vaccinated, negative PCR test 72 hours or antigen test (not lateral flow home test) 48 hours. If you are unvaccinated, essential travel only, same test requirements, and quarantine for 7 days.

France to UK : Quarantine 10 days, regardless of vaccination status. Negative PCR prior to departure and on arrival and after 5 days can reduce that to 5 days. Transiting via France may or may not trigger the quarantine requirement. Transit via the international zone of a French airport, or in a direct train from Belgium, for example, would not ; but transiting using normal public transport, including a journey between two Paris airports, would.

 

[JabbaPapa]

The negative test requirements for travel from Portugal and Spain to France ; 72 hours PCR or antigen if vaccinated or with proof of recovery from Covid19 within 6 months, 24 hours if unvaccinated ; concern those in long-distance public transport, but not those crossing into France by the land border by foot or by bike and so on. Failure to provide such a negative test means being unable to embark on an aeroplane, or risk being disembarked from a train at the border.

No quarantine requirements are attached to travel to France from those countries in any case.

 

[Marbe2]

Unfortunately, hospitaleros are not in total control of albergue dormitories. Anyone who wants to shut windows will do so. Anyone who wants to leave windows open so that he and his friends can go and get drunk and sneak in after curfew will do so. This happened the last time that I volunteered. The only possible way that I can think to keep the windows open in the dormitory where I shall be serving is to open them myself and to ensure that bunks are well away from the windows, as those in upper bunks next to the windows generally closed them. But if someone wants to pull a chair over to a window to shut it, I can see no way to prevent this from happening. I can put up signs noting that the windows are open for the sake of everyone's health. But serving in an albergue is frequently a struggle with those who cannot see anything but their own comfort. And I shall be there in late November, when it will be cold with the windows open. And of course common blankets to be loaned to pilgrims are no longer permitted. Two of us managing an albergue formerly served by four will do our best, but the thought of being judged because we have limited control over other people's behaviour in time of pandemic is very discouraging to me.

I have already heard others descrbe problems in albergues regarding the lack of distancing in an albergue that was packed. If windows are not open, Albertagirl, with the Delta virus, it could result in someone’s death. Noone should be allowed to stay at any common room albergue and shut the window. This must be enforced or the albergue should close.

At anyrate, Albertagirl, please, this is not in anyway, a reflection upon you personally. I admire your Spirit of volunteerism…but you too…need to keep yourself safe! It is an untenable life threatening situation to be in if people aren’t willing to abide by rules in such a common area. The establishment has some responsibility to keep other pilgrims safe. There must be immediate consequences that can be enforced when such a violation occurs.

 

[Albertagirl]

There must be immediate consequences that can be enforced when such a violation occurs.

I am not at all sure that leaving the windows open is required by any public health order where I shall be volunteering in Spain. I am planning my own pilgrimage, prior to volunteering, and find that photos of albergues with one dormitory and many bunk beds packed together have led me to plan on booking private accommodation. Pilgrims like @JabbaPapa have been sleeping under a bridge near where I shall be volunteering, for lack of municipal albergues open. I have read on the forum of various regulations about distancing of beds, no common meals, hygiene requirements, etc. I am not a boss, only a servant. I shall do my best to enforce whatever regulations are in force when I am volunteering and to carry out such practices as open windows, for the sake of the health of the pilgrims who are our guests. But I cannot throw anyone out bodily, and everyone leaves in the morning anyway. I don't know whether this will be an ethical dilemna. As a visitor in Spain, I shall try to enforce the current regulations and to keep pilgrims safe in whatever way I can.

 

[Former member 60103]

I am going to throw in a negative here. Apart from all the requirements that I previously listed I missed one, this being the PLF or passenger Locator Form required by UK Govt when returning from Spain.
I look at my travel booking and daily the tickets get closer or further away. From a English perspective when we lift social restrictions on 19th July I do not think it takes a rocket scientist to guess what is going to happen two weeks down the line. Illustrative are the 140,000 capacity crowds at Silverstone GP at a time when domestic Covid cases are increasing.
Catalonia, Aragon appear to have rising rates. Valencia region has announced restrictions, Spanish mainland students are quarantined in Majorca.
So I may be able to get into Spain but I wonder if I will be able to get out again. Personally given my location here in the west of UK - largely rural with space - I do not and would not feel anymore or less exposed/at risk from Covid in rural Spain - probably much safer. The risk seem's manageable, acceptable and reasonable for myself and others around me.
Whilst it maybe ok right now to walk a camino - if you are quick - that will probably swiftly change by order of whichever Government who doubtless look at this on a daily basis.
On the "what if" side of the plan. If I provide a positive PCR before return there is then a major logistical SNAFU. A 10 day quarantine until a neg test so that EasyJet let me on the plane, rebooking the flight on basis that eventually I will get a neg test, rebooking UK PCR test, new PLF form, finance, insurance if they will cover cost, and lastly the possibility of a £1700 hotel quarantine UK side if Spain goes Red.
Possibly not an accurate use of Occam's Razor but those air tickets look to be heading, stage right, into the too difficult box at the moment.
"Double Jabbed" Don.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I have already heard others descrbe problems in albergues regarding the lack of distancing in an albergue that was packed. If windows are not open, Albertagirl, with the Delta virus, it could result in someone’s death. Noone should be allowed to stay at any common room albergue and shut the window. This must be enforced or the albergue should close.

The realities in each individual Albergue over here really are not that black & white, as each region and each separate municipality has its own rules.

And this is even more the case in this 2021, when the number of pilgrims per dormitory or even per Albergue can be as low as 0 or 1.

Windows open is a helpful tactic, but so is common sense ; and such absolute hard rules as you propose would put some already suffering Albergues straight out of business, and would make an already difficult situation on the ground even worse for the more casual pilgrims less able to make use of the great outdoors refugio under the stars (or perhaps the rain).

The most important thing to avoid is indoors close promiscuity as that is how most infections have occurred, well that and artificially recycled air indoors. Not air conditioning itself, but mechanical ventilation systems. Including just an ordinary electric fan.

In most Albergues the distancing and other rules are completely inapplicable, but then OTOH, there are those like the Municipal in Azofra where they are basically hardwired into its existing architecture.

Besides -- the early 1990s numbers of pilgrims this year are hardly stuffed together like sardines in their tin !!

 

[Kathor1]

Oh well, since the thread is moving away from Lockdowns & Reopenings, here is a figure, taken from an article published in May 2021 about a study by the University of Zaragoza. This was not about albergues but about scout tents at summer camps, and it didn't contain recommendations about either but it had this to say:

Eight people sleeping for nine hours in a 50 square metre albergue dormitory with excellent ventilation (14 'renovations'/hour equivalent to 2100 cubic metres per hour) gives an estimated transmission probability of 2.9% for each susceptible occupant.​

I guess this assumes that one of the eight sleepers is infected ... As most sleepers in albergue dormitories are not infected, the general probability of getting infected must be much lower. I must admit that these numbers are largely meaningless to me.

However, the fact that the state of the windows in albergue dormitories during the night is not a major issue in the public discussion in Spain must mean that they don't regard it as a major public health issue. I find this discussion a bit odd. It would be better to promote or prescribe more testing for pilgrims when checking into an albergue, especially for the non-vaccinated among them ... anyone knows whether they are doing this in Portugal now, or is it only a requirement when checking into a hotel?

 

[Kathor1]

It would be better to promote or prescribe more testing for pilgrims when checking into an albergue, especially for the non-vaccinated among them ...

I was surprised to read @ivar's announcement yesterday: Starting July 20th it should (if things go as they say) be possible to buy antigen test at pharmacies in Galicia. No prescription needed. That sounds as if voluntary and spontaneous rapid self-testing is not as common in Spain as in other countries?

 

[JabbaPapa]

Whether windows are open or closed is still technically about lockdowns and (re)openings ...

 

[jerbear]

Fyi. Madrid route. No albergues so far have been opened. Madrid to Ane. As of Sat. July 17 2021.

 

[VNwalking]

The most important thing to avoid is indoors close promiscuity

Uh-huh.
I assume you mean proximity?

 

[JabbaPapa]

Uh-huh.
I assume you mean proximity?

Difference between British and American English.

 

[Albertagirl]

Fyi. Madrid route. No albergues so far have been opened. Madrid to Ane. As of Sat. July 17 2021.

That sounds like quite a challenge. As I remember, when I walked the Madrid in 2019 it seemed to have the most and best distributed albergues of any camino that I had walked, except for the Frances.

 

[VNwalking]

Difference between British and American English.

You must be using a different dictionary.

https://www.oed.com/oed2/00189878;jsessionid=0F4374D093FAC936DD1E9F3E2FED3C9F

 

[JabbaPapa]

Speaking only of the more typical countries of origin for pilgrims, test requirements for entry into France have for the unvaccinated been uniformly lowered to 24H for the UK, Spain, Portugal, and the Netherlands.

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

Difference between British and American English.

Not in my dictionary.

 

[Former member 98118]

Leon would have to be in very bad shape indeed, and private accommodation not available, for me to deliberately skip it. It is my favourite city in Spain and I have spent a couple of days there every time I've been through.

I think it is a responsible approach to not go to the center of the 5th wave epicenter which unfortunately Leon is at that moment, just because I have "great memories" of it. I want to reduce the risk of carrying unconsciously a virus to albergues where I will stay tomorrow or later on the way to Santiago. As a vaccinated person I can carry virus without having symptoms. That's why in half an hour I am leaving Mansilla and walk directly to Villar de Mazarife. And there are more people here doing it.
Sorry if someone feels offended by it, but being here at this moment probably gives different point of view. Spain had 31 000 infections on Friday and a good amount of them happened in Leon.

Update: after arriving to Villar I was extremely happy that I took this route. It made my day, I arrived relaxed and happy and not stressed out by walking into, through and out of Leon. I've been in Leon at least 4 times, during the pandemic I prefer to avoid hotspots of covid. Thank you and adios!

 

[VNwalking]

That's why in half an hour I am leaving Mansilla and walk directly to Villar de Mazarife

Under the circumstances, that sounds wise.
Buen camino, @Happy Penguin. If you have a chance, please post about this - describing conditions, and where you spent the night. First-hand experience is vastly better than threads we can post from afar after charting out a route on a map.

 

[Albertagirl]

As a vaccinated person I can carry virus without having symptoms. That's why in half an hour I am leaving Mansilla and walk directly to Villar de Mazarife. And there are more people here doing it.

Is this not how cases are spread? That is, if you think that you can spread it.

 

[VNwalking]

Is this not how cases are spread?

Well, yes. But there are fewer opportunities for close contact with others in the countryside as opposed to a biggish city like Leon, and a lower general infection rate as well. Fewer contacts and lower positivity rate equals less likelihood of getting and spreading the virus. So I'd choose to bypass Leon right now too.

I'm just talking, though, without the data to prove it. So please take that as an opinion, @Albertagirl, rather than established fact.

 

[Albertagirl]

Well, yes. But there are fewer opportunities for close contact with others in the countryside as opposed to a biggish city like Leon, and a lower general infection rate as well. Fewer contacts and lower positivity rate equals less likelihood of getting and spreading the virus. So I'd choose to bypass Leon right now too.

I'm just talking, though, without the data to prove it. So please take that as an opinion, @Albertagirl, rather than established fact.

I have read narratives of pandemics, some fiction, some historical. It just struck me how people in a location which they understand is high risk have generally chosen to leave, often becoming a moving vector of infection, as they travel to areas thought to be safer. I am moving, mentally, into a nightmare world where I am unsure how someone can be safer in a pandemic without risking anyone else's precarious safety.

 

[VNwalking]

I am moving, mentally, into a nightmare world where I am unsure how someone can be safer in a pandemic without risking anyone else's precarious safety.

Yes, it's a horrible dilemma. That's one reason to stay put. But we can't - nor should we - do that forever.
So...
What is the least detrimental choice, personally, collectively, and ethically? The calculation of that isn't easy.

 

[wayfarer]

Difference between British and American English.

Ahhh....no its not.