Last night I learned I snore...

TheNerdAbides · Oct 17, 2023

So I just crossed the midway point on the CF, and last night I learned I snored. Well I knew I did sometimes, but had no idea how often or how loudly. Sleep apps have recorded some, but only in short bursts every few hours.

But last night I can only assume that I was snoring like a chainsaw, because I was woken up three times by my bed neighbor. And I'm still creeped out by it. Because the first time he did it by grabbing and fondling my outstretched hand. At the time I didn't know it was him, and I remember my sleepy brain thinking "Jesus, I need to leave a review about there being ghosts in this place." The next two times he shook me awake somehow before diving back into his bed, trying to be sneaky.

I haven't shared a bed with someone in over a decade, so being touched while sleeping was.... A shock to the system. I still vividly recall the hand fondling. It was borderline nightmare material.

Anyway, I know snoring has been discussed to death. And I'm also not going to apologize for it; I didn't know, and another pilgrim in the room (only 5 beds) says she didn't hear anything through her earplugs, so I'll assume I was not actually as loud as a chainsaw.

But people, touching sleeping pilgrims is not OK...

J Willhaus · Oct 17, 2023

TheNerdAbides said:
So I just crossed the midway point on the CF, and last night I learned I snored. Well I knew I did sometimes, but had no idea how often or how loudly. Sleep apps have recorded some, but only in short bursts every few hours.

But last night I can only assume that I was snoring like a chainsaw, because I was woken up three times by my bed neighbor. And I'm still creeped out by it. Because the first time he did it by grabbing and fondling my outstretched hand. At the time I didn't know it was him, and I remember my sleepy brain thinking "Jesus, I need to leave a review about there being ghosts in this place." The next two times he shook me awake somehow before diving back into his bed, trying to be sneaky.

I haven't shared a bed with someone in over a decade, so being touched while sleeping was.... A shock to the system. I still vividly recall the hand fondling. It was borderline nightmare material.

Anyway, I know snoring has been discussed to death. And I'm also not going to apologize for it; I didn't know, and another pilgrim in the room (only 5 beds) says she didn't hear anything through her earplugs, so I'll assume I was not actually as loud as a chainsaw.

But people, touching sleeping pilgrims is not OK...

What will you do about it? Will you elect for private rooms or at least alert your nearby bunk mates at the next albergue so they can have ear plugs ready? How would prefer people wake you if not to shake you?

I used to snore before I wore a CPAP machine and I downplayed the loudness in my own mind. Sorry you were startled, but it may help you think about how to prepare yourself and others for the night in a shared bunk room.

JabbaPapa · Oct 17, 2023

Light snorers will usually snore a lot more on a Camino than in normal circumstances.

I don't snore that much, even on a Camino, but I know that I do so occasionally, and that rarely it can be bad snoring.

---

I really don't worry about it too much, but instead I try and adapt to the snoring of others. One useful technique, I've found, is to adapt your breathing rhythm while trying to sleep to the rhythm of the snoring. That works about 5 times in 6.

THE hands-down worst snorer I've ever known was my dad ; though one pilgrim last year in Sarria did it to the same order of magnitude, and that's an Olympic Games quality of snoring, that I think most pilgrims will never have come across. A French pilgrim sleeping next to him had ear plugs that blocked the noise, but he told me in the morning that his bunk bed was actually shaking from the noise. I myself was alone downstairs in the disabled room on the ground floor, and the snoring resonated into it past several stone walls. My dad could achieve the same ...

Which is to say, in 58 years of life, and 30 years as a pilgrim -- my dad, that pilgrim, and nobody else coming even close.

Most snoring is gentle and I personally find even soothing. The artificial noise from a CPAP machine is something I personally find to be much more disturbing.

Rick of Rick and Peg · Oct 17, 2023

A year after our camino we were hiking a hut to hut in the mountains. We got in late on day one and found bunks in the same room but separated around a corner. During the night I hear some awful snoring. I remember telling myself "That sounds like Peg, but she doesn't snore." The next night we were together but close to someone who was next to Peg the night before. After a short conversation with a panicked hiker we removed ourselves to the snorers' area (mattresses on the floor in the attic). She was quiet that night but not all nights since.

mspath · Oct 17, 2023

I never needed ear plugs but a few unhappy times I have had to find another bunk in the middle of the night due to a consistently overactive neighbor who forgot where he was as he zealously thrashed into 'my' space. Since whilst sleeping in late autumn/winter I resembled "the wicked witch of the west" I assume that if any thrasher had awakened he would have been dutifully shocked.

TheNerdAbides · Oct 17, 2023

J Willhaus said:
What will you do about it?

I don't plan on doing anything about it. You're paying 10 euro for a cheap, shared space. Snoring is part of the package, along with smells, early risers, bathroom lights, too hot/cold temperatures, and more!

Like I said, the other person didn't hear a thing. So until I learn more from someone who doesn't fondle strangers hands in the middle of the night, I'm doing jack squat.

M2ME · Oct 17, 2023

I am a snorer I will admit it and my wife will confirm. I have managed to stop snoring by using a variety of solutions simultaneously. Firstly I ensure that I sleep on my side (pillow at back works) I use a mouth guard like item available online that keeps my mouth open. I find it easy to use. I also have a set of nostril inserts (available online) that make for unrestricted air passages. Both of these are not particularly intrusive and light weight so not a problem to pack. The final part of the equation on the Camino was not to drink until Santiago. I asked my bunk mates regularly if I had snored the previous night and not one of them heard anything. My wife also says when using the mouth guard and nostril inserts there is no snoring. I used earplugs for those times where there were snorers. On one occasion I needed my sound cancelling earbuds.
I think there may well have been other ways of alerting you than hand squeezing but as a snorer I think the onus is on us to try, if at all possible, to mitigate our impact on others.

auburnfive · Oct 17, 2023

I highly recommend a system called Hoomband if you are a light sleeper who is disturbed by snoring. It’s a headband and is comfortable for side sleepers, and remotely connects to an iPad or phone. Listening to a boring podcast or soft music distracts from the snoring and made sleep come much easier.

K_Lynn · Oct 17, 2023

My last night in an albergue I was woken by the most terrifying snoring I have ever heard. I should have shook him awake but I did not. Now that you know you snore loudly, try sleeping on your side and reduce your alcohol intake if you tend to drink heavily as back sleeping or alcohol tends to produce louder snoring.

It is a shared space and people should attempt to be more considerate of others.

goldie from aus · Oct 17, 2023

TheNerdAbides said:
I don't plan on doing anything about it. You're paying 10 euro for a cheap, shared space. Snoring is part of the package.

Well TNA I'm about 13 days into my first Camino and snoring has abound. The worst was Roseville OMG. As far as I know, no touching. I can say if someone stroked my arm during the night, I'd hit the roof literally. Try stay in the moment, and stay with like mind that accept snoring. Buen Camino

J Willhaus · Oct 17, 2023

TheNerdAbides said:
I don't plan on doing anything about it. You're paying 10 euro for a cheap, shared space. Snoring is part of the package, along with smells, early risers, bathroom lights, too hot/cold temperatures, and more!

Like I said, the other person didn't hear a thing. So until I learn more from someone who doesn't fondle strangers hands in the middle of the night, I'm doing jack squat.

OK, maybe being awakened in the night by a stranger is also part of the experience. Again I snore without my machine, but if someone wakes me and asks me to turn on my side because I am making too much noise, I would be fine with it. If someone was watching a movie on their phone, I would also ask them to turn it off after 10 p.m. It is a community space as you say and we should try to make it as tolerable as possible.

Sheesh · Oct 17, 2023

Laying hands on another person without their consent is never okay.

(Unless the person is injured of course. That goes without saying. But I'll put it in as a disclaimer or some bright spark is bound to pounce on it.)

astronwolf · Oct 17, 2023

Snoring respiration is a sign of obstructed breathing. As an EMT I've heard my share of snoring coming from people who are either dying or suffering from some form of breathing obstruction. I've also listened to people "just snoring" in their sleep that apparently were not dying. I had a cousin who died at a young age (50) due to a host of ailments - bad snoring was a symptom of those ailments.

In my opinion, bad snoring is an indication of "dying slowly" due to reduced oxygen intake. Be glad someone shook you awake.

JabbaPapa · Oct 17, 2023

Sheesh said:
Laying hands on another person without their consent is never okay.

Exactly.

The one single time my snoring bothered someone last year, that nice German young woman came and gently talked to me in my sleep, waking me non-aggressively, and suggested to me that I was sleeping in a bad position ; as indeed I was.

Snoring is not deliberate ; presuming to shake a sleeping pilgrim is 100% deliberate.

JabbaPapa · Oct 17, 2023

astronwolf said:
In my opinion, bad snoring is an indication of "dying slowly" due to reduced oxygen intake. Be glad someone shook you awake.

Or it's just a consequence of some anatomical characteristics having no such "indication".

IIRC I vigorously reprimanded the one pilgrim who presumed to touch me in my sleep for such "reason", and I would certainly do so again.

---

If you can't stand snoring, then bloody well don't sleep in a bunk bed dormitory !!

SabsP · Oct 17, 2023

astronwolf said:
Snoring respiration is a sign of obstructed breathing. As an EMT I've heard my share of snoring coming from people who are either dying or suffering from some form of breathing obstruction. I've also listened to people "just snoring" in their sleep that apparently were not dying. I had a cousin who died at a young age (50) due to a host of ailments - bad snoring was a symptom of those ailments.

In my opinion, bad snoring is an indication of "dying slowly" due to reduced oxygen intake. Be glad someone shook you awake.

I am not a violent person but if a stranger would touch me when staying/ sleeping in an albergue I would punch him / her.
I agree with the others here when they say that it is just a no. Telling someone when they are awake : ok. Otherwise we should mind our own business.
And what is just a slight nuisance for one person is a gigantic issue for another one.

For example : I can get extremely annoyed when people do not put their phone on quiet. The loud noises drive me nuts, but again it is my issue. I will tell it to them in a polite way. If they can't be bothered at least I told them and next time I try to avoid them or find a private place.

TravellingMan22 · Oct 17, 2023

I think when you choose a dorm, you are pretty much giving up the ability/right to control your environment to any real degree; noise, privacy, security. That’s what you are signing up when you pay €10 or whatever. Snorers and folks who need to use bathroom in the middle of the night are probably the best examples of the ‘uncontrollables’, but I think you have to accept this or book private accommodation. .

All that said most of us take steps to do the easy stuff as not turning lights on early, pack the night before, phone on silent, etc!

100% no touching!

TheNerdAbides · Oct 17, 2023

astronwolf said:
In my opinion, bad snoring is an indication of "dying slowly" due to reduced oxygen intake. Be glad someone shook you awake.

Oh I'm fine with the dying bit. It's the creepy hands induced nightmares on the way to dying that bother me...

Peterexpatkiwi · Oct 17, 2023

JabbaPapa said:
If you can't stand snoring, then bloody well don't sleep in a bunk bed dormitory !!

That's the type of argument that smokers used to use whilst blowing smoke in someone's direction in the pub - "if you don't like me smoking, don't come to the Pub".
Somewhat unreasonable, shall we say.

I've been staying in hostels for close to 40 years. I'm a light sleeper, I carry ear plugs. But some snorers still wake me. If it's particularly bad I will not hesitate to wake them. I once had an aggressive response from the person concerned. Two other guys in the same dorm got up and after a short argument physically evicted him. I did not agree with that either.

I have also both worked in and managed a backpackers. I have twice had entire groups come to me asking me to expel a snorer. I cannot count the times I have had snorers come to me two advise me of their problem and requesting that they either get put in a room with other snorers or that I at least advise anyone going into their room that this individual snored. Mainly guys but once or twice a woman as well.

Talking to somebody or gently shaking them awake is one thing. Hand stroking though is completely unacceptable. I would be seriously disturbed myself.

TheNerdAbides · Oct 17, 2023

Peterexpatkiwi said:
That's the type of argument that smokers used to use whilst blowing smoke in someone's direction in the pub - "if you don't like me smoking, don't come to the Pub".

The difference though is that snoring is a 100% natural thing, just like farting, tossing and turning, and going to the bathroom at 3am. Smoking is not at all natural.

JabbaPapa · Oct 17, 2023

Peterexpatkiwi said:
That's the type of argument that smokers used to use whilst blowing smoke in someone's direction in the pub

Rubbish.

As I said, I do not snore very often.

Also -- smoking is deliberate behaviour, snoring is not.

That is a completely false equivalence.

Peterexpatkiwi said:
I will not hesitate to wake them

If you are such a light sleeper then it's up to you, not others, to provide yourself with good sleeping conditions.

An Albergue de Peregrinos is slept in by all manner of people in all manner of diverse consequences of exhaustion, not excluding the smell.

If that's not good enough for you, then don't disturb the other pilgrims ; find some other solution for yourself.

Peterexpatkiwi said:
Two other guys in the same dorm got up and after a short argument physically evicted him.

Reason number 275 why Youth Hostels are rubbish.

Peterexpatkiwi said:
I have twice had entire groups come to me asking me to expel a snorer.

I do not admire such selfish attitudes.

Tincatinker · Oct 17, 2023

TheNerdAbides said:
I was woken up three times by my bed neighbor. And I'm still creeped out by it. Because the first time he did it by grabbing and fondling my outstretched hand.

But people, touching sleeping pilgrims is not OK...

Probably ex-military. Just be glad he didn't place your hand in a bucket of warm water.

Me? I'd have forgiven the first intervention. Had my Gruntle slightly dissed by the second and got out of bed, stuck a thumb in his eye and set off on an early start thereafter

TheNerdAbides · Oct 17, 2023

Tincatinker said:
Probably ex-military. Just be glad he didn't place your hand in a bucket of warm water.

Me? I'd have forgiven the first intervention. Had my Gruntle slightly dissed by the second and got out of bed, stuck a thumb in his eye and set off on an early start thereafter

If I recall correctly, the 2nd time I suspected it was him, and the third time I knew it was him. The third time was at 4:30 and I nearly did set out!

Texas Walker · Oct 17, 2023

IMHO, everybody snores. Not everybody knows that they snore. Side sleeping helps. adequate hydration--not a full bottle of wine but water before bed--probably helps. Not being stuffed up in the head helps.

I don't care about snorers, I think that if someone wants to sleep in absolute quiet the answer is spelled H-O-T-E-L.

When we walked in 2021, though, at the fading phase of the Rona, someone was coughing all night long and I had to hold myself down to keep from yelling at him for coughing his nasty germs all over the place. But he might have just had a tickle in his throat.

Learning that we're not in control of everything and have to take the annoying with the delightful is part of the lessons of the Camino.

BC

astronwolf · Oct 17, 2023

SabsP said:
I am not a violent person but if a stranger would touch me when staying/ sleeping in an albergue I would punch him / her.

I too would likely lash out as a reflex. Going for my valuables might illicit a stronger response.

astronwolf · Oct 17, 2023

JabbaPapa said:
Or it's just a consequence of some anatomical characteristics having no such "indication".

Maybe. But after your whole life so far, only just last night you discovered that you snore. And apparently loud enough to bother people. Rather sudden onset. I'm not condoning people playing patty-finger with you while you sleep, but you ought to get that checked out.

Close relative of mine started snoring and they didn't have a history of snoring. Putting on weight and alcohol were to blame, and when they lost the weight and cut down on the boozing, snoring disappeared.

Tincatinker · Oct 17, 2023

The only, seriously only, bunk mate I ever encountered that didn’t, at some point in the night, snore, wiffle, fart, grunt or offer some contribution to the soundscape was found to be dead in the cool light of morning. It took two days before we could evacuate the poor sod. I was always amazed by how soundly many slept in that Refugio

Rick of Rick and Peg · Oct 17, 2023

At a group campout I was at Waker physically woke up Snorer. Snorer nearly killed Waker but other campers got involved. Snorer had an automatic reaction. He was an army veteran who suffered PTSD. He woke up after finding himself at the bottom of a pile of bodies.

Be really careful about waking up strangers.

Edit: Written while Tinc was writing his post.

Peterexpatkiwi · Oct 17, 2023

@JabbaPapa :
1/ fair call, bad example.
I was simply trying to point out that I find your reaction extreme. Just as bad as somebody saying that if you snore, or need a cpap machine you shouldn't stay in a bunk bed dormitory. I disagree with both.

2/ I've pointed out I provide myself with ear plugs. 'Normal' snoring - if there is such a thing - does not bother me. Nor do I wake when people get up to go to the bathroom, again because of the ear plugs. And, simply because you mentioned it, smells are just one of those things. Unless of course it's as a direct result of somebody not washing for days on end in which case, yes I will mention that to them too. In private, and as carefully and hopefully respectfully as possible of course.
But extreme snoring is different. In my literally thousands of nights of sleeping in hostels I have probably woken people only a dozen or so times. Mentioning it to them the day afterwards helps nobody.

3) who said anything about Youth Hostels? And I certainly don't consider them to be rubbish, nor I imagine do most of the many millions of people throughout the years who have stayed in them.
I've stayed in them too but I predominantly stayed in backpacker hostels. Completely different clientele.

The point was more that he had disturbed more people than just myself, and had he simply turned over rather than getting aggressive we could have all gone back to sleep. He was thrown out for being aggressive, not for snoring!

4/Selfish? Yes. Just as I consider one person insisting on their rights to disturb 3 or more others is selfish.

Not that it really matters but no of course I did not expel the individuals concerned, it wasn't their fault. I simply found an alternative solution.

The only people I personally have ever expelled (or for that matter seen expelled) were for stealing, drugs and violence. And in all three examples they were expelled into the waiting arms of the police.

henrythedog · Oct 17, 2023

SabsP said:
I am not a violent person but if a stranger would touch me when staying/ sleeping in an albergue I would punch him / her.

No jury in Cumbria would convict you for that.

(I was looking for a big yellow ‘thumbs up’ emoji to add; but I can’t find one. I’m a bit new to all this stuff. Have an aubergine for the time being.)

Oh, hang on a bit.

dougfitz · Oct 17, 2023

J Willhaus said:
OK, maybe being awakened in the night by a stranger is also part of the experience.

I DON'T THINK SO. Short of an emergency, only someone who has explicit permission to wake you should be touching you in your sleep on the Camino. That might be a spouse, walking partner, or someone you have given such permission. It might even be a hospitalero wanting to get on with their day when the morning rush has failed to wake you. But a stranger? Definitely not!

J Willhaus · Oct 17, 2023

dougfitz said:
I DON'T THINK SO. Short of an emergency, only someone who has explicit permission to wake you should be touching you in your sleep on the Camino. That might be a spouse, walking partner, or someone you have given such permission. It might even be a hospitalero wanting to get on with their day when the morning rush has failed to wake you. But a stranger? Definitely not!

Yes we are each different. I don't care who shakes me if I am snoring. It might startle me, but if it is for the greater good I don't mind. I guess I am the only one who feels this way today.

nycwalking · Oct 18, 2023

TheNerdAbides said:
Oh I'm fine with the dying bit. It's the creepy hands induced nightmares on the way to dying that bother me...

Keep living.

Buen camino.

dbier · Oct 18, 2023

I vastly prefer being shaken awake, or poked, should i fall asleep on my back, rather than continue to pollute my neighbors' aural environment.

The first time I snored, 36 years ago, my husband pinched my nose shut. That *wasn't * OK. He didn't try fondling my hand...good thing, too.

I'm in the middle on this, but i have a thought question. Should ... should...your desire to have (///sarcasm flag on///) the full communal Camino experience at a bargain price (/// sarcasm flag off))) trump my desire to not listen to you choke, gasp, and otherwise struggle to breathe in your sleep? Especially when, for the vast majority of snorers, getting you to turn on your side eases both your struggle and the noise level?

Give it a thought.

dbier · Oct 18, 2023

I do admit that my post above is influenced by two things.

1. If a male stranger asked me in the morning if he was snoring, and I thought that he was angry or upset, I'd probably lie rather than make him more upset. Or be very happy with my custom earplugs.

2. The second is the class I taught last night. CPR.

We teach medical students that, if a person is breathing with difficulty or, worse, agonally (look it up, better yet, listen to it), then try repositioning them on their side. If that doesn't work, roll them on their backs and start CPR.

truenorthpilgrm · Oct 18, 2023

Sheesh said:
Laying hands on another person without their consent is never okay.

As sensitive as I am to noise, I fully agree with this. AND as a woman sleeping in a roomful of strangers, for the love of god, don't lay a finger on me without my consent. Even if you think you know someone's medical condition.

Sharing a room with multiple other pilgrims...snoring is bound to happen. People acting surprised and upset about that fact need to book their own rooms.

My 1000% foolproof solution has always been to carry at least 3 packs of Mack's earplugs. Nothing can penetrate those babies. I understand some folks can't tolerate earplugs because of inner ear issues, but if you're able to...stock up!

TravellingMan22 · Oct 18, 2023

I think laying your hands on any stranger, no matter how well intentioned , is a ‘no-no’. In extreme circumstances it can lead to all sorts of issues and you never know how people will respond. National culture /gender plays a role not plus of other things too.

Lindsay53 · Oct 18, 2023

Tincatinker said:
Probably ex-military. Just be glad he didn't place your hand in a bucket of warm water.

Me? I'd have forgiven the first intervention. Had my Gruntle slightly dissed by the second and got out of bed, stuck a thumb in his eye and set off on an early start thereafter

In the navy we woke people by shaking their foot. It wakes the person easily and without room for misinterpretation of the contact. The hand stroking is well out of order.

Martin-B · Oct 18, 2023

If other peoples snoring bothers you? Find a hotel. It's a fact of life in albergues, it's an involuntary action which for many is difficult to address. On those occasions I'm kept awake by it I remind myself I'm not paying hotel rates.

I remember on the Frances a girl be woken by some guy accusing her of snoring, I was in the next bed and heard nothing but was awoken by his whinging .
Snoring is way down my list of annoyances while in albergues but that's another story ;-)

David Tallan · Oct 18, 2023

Sheesh said:
Laying hands on another person without their consent is never okay.

(Unless the person is injured of course. That goes without saying. But I'll put it in as a disclaimer or some bright spark is bound to pounce on it.)

What about waking someone sleeping on a train when it has come to the end of the line and is about to go out of service? What about holding someone back when they are about to get into a fight?

There are plenty of things to pounce on in an absolute statement like this. It is a judgement call and people would draw the line in different places. I am not saying it is okay to wake the snorer in this situation. Frankly, I think this is a borderline case and probably varies culturally or person to person. But I wouldn't equate it with physical or sexual assault.

David Tallan · Oct 18, 2023

dougfitz said:
I DON'T THINK SO. Short of an emergency, only someone who has explicit permission to wake you should be touching you in your sleep on the Camino. That might be a spouse, walking partner, or someone you have given such permission. It might even be a hospitalero wanting to get on with their day when the morning rush has failed to wake you. But a stranger? Definitely not!

I think few hospitaleros get explicit permission. Implied permission perhaps, but I have never given explicit permission to a hospitalero in any of my albergue stays.

Camino Chrissy · Oct 18, 2023

truenorthpilgrm said:
My 1000% foolproof solution has always been to carry at least 3 packs of Mack's earplugs. Nothing can penetrate those babies.

These are my go-to earplugs too, and they do a great job. They are not the most comfortable and can feel rather itchy, but I prefer it over listening to the sometimes loud snoring and bag rustling in the morning.
I don't know why anyone would choose to sleep in an albergue without a pair of earplugs, especially members of this forum who hear about complaints quite often on threads.

lalaone · Oct 18, 2023

David Tallan said:
What about waking someone sleeping on a train when it has come to the end of the line and is about to go out of service? What about holding someone back when they are about to get into a fight?

There are plenty of things to pounce on in an absolute statement like this. It is a judgement call and people would draw the line in different places. I am not saying it is okay to wake the snorer in this situation. Frankly, I think this is a borderline case and probably varies culturally or person to person. But I wouldn't equate it with physical or sexual assault.

With all due respect, I disagree.

On a train: Perhaps if they are traveling alone and if a conductor will not likely pass through? They are likely sleeping more lightly on a train than in a bed. A word or a gentle tap on the shoulder might be expected from a conductor, so that might be the behavior to model.

Before a fight: Perhaps if no police officer is present and a physical altercation seems likely? But snoring is neither a crime nor a threat of violence, so I have an especially hard time seeing this analogy.

I think it’s best to keep things simple, as others have said:
Do not touch others without their consent.

That might sound categorical, sure, but I would prefer to err on the side of empathy for those who are made to feel disturbed or violated – and to assume that might be anybody. As pilgrims, we are not train conductors, police officers, or even medical professionals on the Way, whatever our backgrounds might be in everyday life. If ever called on to act as such, it should be in situations where it is absolutely required and we should handle ourselves with the professionalism and care we’d expect from the best people in those fields, our actions guided by compassion for the stranger and not out of personal annoyance (however strongly annoyed we might feel!). Like the hospitalero example – out of professional duty and implicit trust. I think that is probably what you meant, David Tallan...? It’s hard for me personally to see snoring as a reason to touch a stranger asleep in bed, even if some people have no problem with it. Why not just mention it in the morning, if one desires to help?

NorthernLight · Oct 18, 2023

I had a post nasal drip thing going on that caused me to cough (only at night) and apparently snore during one part of one of my caminos. I ‘cured’ it by adding to my pillow so that I was more elevated. But before I discovered that solution and before knowing I was snoring, I experienced the ‘joy’ of having some random stranger squirt water on me. I had no idea why I was wet until the next night when the guy in the next bunk kept shaking my bedframe to wake me and I clued in. Not once did any of those people say to me, ‘hey, did you know you were snoring?’

Kcburkman · Oct 18, 2023

TheNerdAbides said:
So I just crossed the midway point on the CF, and last night I learned I snored. Well I knew I did sometimes, but had no idea how often or how loudly. Sleep apps have recorded some, but only in short bursts every few hours.

But last night I can only assume that I was snoring like a chainsaw, because I was woken up three times by my bed neighbor. And I'm still creeped out by it. Because the first time he did it by grabbing and fondling my outstretched hand. At the time I didn't know it was him, and I remember my sleepy brain thinking "Jesus, I need to leave a review about there being ghosts in this place." The next two times he shook me awake somehow before diving back into his bed, trying to be sneaky.

I haven't shared a bed with someone in over a decade, so being touched while sleeping was.... A shock to the system. I still vividly recall the hand fondling. It was borderline nightmare material.

Anyway, I know snoring has been discussed to death. And I'm also not going to apologize for it; I didn't know, and another pilgrim in the room (only 5 beds) says she didn't hear anything through her earplugs, so I'll assume I was not actually as loud as a chainsaw.

But people, touching sleeping pilgrims is not OK...

I have a snore app so I’m aware that I snore. It’s more intense if I’ve been out walking in nature. For this reason, I opted to get a private room for my pilgrimage in Sept. But with that said, snoring goes hand in hand with communal sleeping arrangements.

Shazzza · Oct 18, 2023

TheNerdAbides said:
So I just crossed the midway point on the CF, and last night I learned I snored. Well I knew I did sometimes, but had no idea how often or how loudly. Sleep apps have recorded some, but only in short bursts every few hours.

But last night I can only assume that I was snoring like a chainsaw, because I was woken up three times by my bed neighbor. And I'm still creeped out by it. Because the first time he did it by grabbing and fondling my outstretched hand. At the time I didn't know it was him, and I remember my sleepy brain thinking "Jesus, I need to leave a review about there being ghosts in this place." The next two times he shook me awake somehow before diving back into his bed, trying to be sneaky.

I haven't shared a bed with someone in over a decade, so being touched while sleeping was.... A shock to the system. I still vividly recall the hand fondling. It was borderline nightmare material.

Anyway, I know snoring has been discussed to death. And I'm also not going to apologize for it; I didn't know, and another pilgrim in the room (only 5 beds) says she didn't hear anything through her earplugs, so I'll assume I was not actually as loud as a chainsaw.

But people, touching sleeping pilgrims is not OK...

Ooooh yikes. Having used the Snore Lab app I learned that I snore too! Especially after a big hike or…wine. I use nasal strips and that has helped a ton! Hopefully their intention was to be kind by doing that instead of smacking you? But nooo thank you.

out2c · Oct 18, 2023

TheNerdAbides said:
So I just crossed the midway point on the CF, and last night I learned I snored. Well I knew I did sometimes, but had no idea how often or how loudly. Sleep apps have recorded some, but only in short bursts every few hours.

But last night I can only assume that I was snoring like a chainsaw, because I was woken up three times by my bed neighbor. And I'm still creeped out by it. Because the first time he did it by grabbing and fondling my outstretched hand. At the time I didn't know it was him, and I remember my sleepy brain thinking "Jesus, I need to leave a review about there being ghosts in this place." The next two times he shook me awake somehow before diving back into his bed, trying to be sneaky.

I haven't shared a bed with someone in over a decade, so being touched while sleeping was.... A shock to the system. I still vividly recall the hand fondling. It was borderline nightmare material.

Anyway, I know snoring has been discussed to death. And I'm also not going to apologize for it; I didn't know, and another pilgrim in the room (only 5 beds) says she didn't hear anything through her earplugs, so I'll assume I was not actually as loud as a chainsaw.

But people, touching sleeping pilgrims is not

J Willhaus said:
What will you do about it? Will you elect for private rooms or at least alert your nearby bunk mates at the next albergue so they can have ear plugs ready? How would prefer people wake you if not to shake you?

I used to snore before I wore a CPAP machine and I downplayed the loudness in my own mind. Sorry you were startled, but it may help you think about how to prepare yourself and others for the night in a shared bunk room.

I went to having private rooms as much as possible, warned people when I couldn't find a private, slept on the floor in common rooms and still had people be awful when - surprised by my snoring. Can't win with some.... Others I hope they develop some compassion.

EugeneB · Oct 18, 2023

Lindsay53 said:
In the navy we woke people by shaking their foot. It wakes the person easily and without room for misinterpretation of the contact. The hand stroking is well out of order.

Without room for misinterpretation? Have you heard of podophilia (aka foot fetish)? Sorry, I could not resist.

singhi337 · Oct 18, 2023

TheNerdAbides said:
So I just crossed the midway point on the CF, and last night I learned I snored. Well I knew I did sometimes, but had no idea how often or how loudly. Sleep apps have recorded some, but only in short bursts every few hours.

But last night I can only assume that I was snoring like a chainsaw, because I was woken up three times by my bed neighbor. And I'm still creeped out by it. Because the first time he did it by grabbing and fondling my outstretched hand. At the time I didn't know it was him, and I remember my sleepy brain thinking "Jesus, I need to leave a review about there being ghosts in this place." The next two times he shook me awake somehow before diving back into his bed, trying to be sneaky.

I haven't shared a bed with someone in over a decade, so being touched while sleeping was.... A shock to the system. I still vividly recall the hand fondling. It was borderline nightmare material.

Anyway, I know snoring has been discussed to death. And I'm also not going to apologize for it; I didn't know, and another pilgrim in the room (only 5 beds) says she didn't hear anything through her earplugs, so I'll assume I was not actually as loud as a chainsaw.

But people, touching sleeping pilgrims is not OK...

If human can’t sleep 3 days in a row might fall in critical health condition , especially in Camino extrema fatigue…I have a very sensitive ears so 4th day of insomnia due to other pilgrims heavy snoring sounds I had to flee to hotel…please sleep at side lying position so that your air way patent not to make too much snoring sounds to get more oxygen….(even apple noise blocker doesn’t work with heavy snoring situation)

David Tallan · Oct 18, 2023

lalaone said:
With all due respect, I disagree.

On a train: Perhaps if they are traveling alone and if a conductor will not likely pass through? They are likely sleeping more lightly on a train than in a bed. A word or a gentle tap on the shoulder might be expected from a conductor, so that might be the behavior to model.

Before a fight: Perhaps if no police officer is present and a physical altercation seems likely? But snoring is neither a crime nor a threat of violence, so I have an especially hard time seeing this analogy.

I think it’s best to keep things simple, as others have said:
Do not touch others without their consent.

That might sound categorical, sure, but I would prefer to err on the side of empathy for those who are made to feel disturbed or violated – and to assume that might be anybody. As pilgrims, we are not train conductors, police officers, or even medical professionals on the Way, whatever our backgrounds might be in everyday life. If ever called on to act as such, it should be in situations where it is absolutely required and we should handle ourselves with the professionalism and care we’d expect from the best people in those fields, our actions guided by compassion for the stranger and not out of personal annoyance (however strongly annoyed we might feel!). Like the hospitalero example – out of professional duty and implicit trust. I think that is probably what you meant, David Tallan...? It’s hard for me personally to see snoring as a reason to touch a stranger asleep in bed, even if some people have no problem with it. Why not just mention it in the morning, if one desires to help?

For what it is worth, my adult children agree with you.

With the train example, it happened to me once on the subway. I slept through the announcements that everyone should get off because the train was going out of service and I guess back then they weren't sending conductors through. I would have thanked someone who woke me up.

I do agree that our actions should be guided by compassion and not annoyance. But I think that applying that compassion can involve judgement.

SilentNight · Oct 18, 2023

Seems common sense and decency to not subject a fellow pilgrim to my sleep apnea/snoring or the soft susurration of my CPAP, so I booked private rooms.

DoughnutANZ · Oct 18, 2023

David Tallan said:
With the train example, it happened to me once on the subway. I slept through the announcements that everyone should get off because the train was going out of service and I guess back then they weren't sending conductors through. I would have thanked someone who woke me up.

I caught the last "tube" home one night after working very late one night in London and fell asleep in my seat. Someone, I am not sure who, woke me at the last stop but that wasn't particularly useful as I then had a very long, very cold walk home! It may have been better to leave me sleeping until the morning and perhaps, refreshed a little and thinking clearer I could have waited for the early tube, arrived home earlier and skipped a day at work

VaughantownHiker · Oct 19, 2023

TheNerdAbides said:
But last night I can only assume that I was snoring like a chainsaw, because I was woken up three times by my bed neighbor. And I'm still creeped out by it. Because the first time he did it by grabbing and fondling my outstretched hand. At the time I didn't know it was him, and I remember my sleepy brain thinking "Jesus, I need to leave a review about there being ghosts in this place." The next two times he shook me awake somehow before diving back into his bed, trying to be sneaky.
But people, touching sleeping pilgrims is not OK.

I’m married to a snorer. In the early days of his waking me up, I would gently nudge him with little or no success. Then, after a while the sleep deprivation and anxiety started to build. When I would wake up to the sounds of a loud, sputtering chainsaw, I gave him a pretty big shove and yelled “snoring!” This worked! But after some time, I started to notice my husband was flinching in his sleep. So over the years, I’ve addressed my husband’s snoring with a more gentle approach. Sometimes I’ll just roll over and “naturally” bump into him. Sometimes I even gently rub his back. There are many nights when the gentle approach doesn’t work and I end up on the couch or take a sleeping pill. I’m not thrilled with either of these solutions.

I’ve read stories like yours occasionally here and I would like to suggest that maybe more happened than you are aware. Maybe your neighbor tried other less invasive approaches (whispering or talking) with you and they didn’t work. So then they tried gentle nudging (the hand) and then kept trying more and more invasive techniques. What seemed like an out-of-nowhere physical encounter to you may have lasted a fair amount of time with multiple attempts to stop it. Even by your own description it’s clear this person was trying other things and they weren’t working.

You and your roommates are working hard all day and are probably extremely tired mentally and physically. My experience is that when my husband has had a very physical day, like on the camino, his snoring is the worst and it’s much harder to get him to stop. And when I’m physically very tired, I have less patience when someone wakes me up. From all the posts I’ve read on the forum on this topic, I think these are just basic facts of sleeping communally on the camino. So, we choose to stay in private rooms where I’m the only one subjected to the noise Because I still have the option of yelling “SNORING!”

Cicada · Oct 19, 2023

TheNerdAbides said:
So I just crossed the midway point on the CF, and last night I learned I snored. Well I knew I did sometimes, but had no idea how often or how loudly. Sleep apps have recorded some, but only in short bursts every few hours.

But last night I can only assume that I was snoring like a chainsaw, because I was woken up three times by my bed neighbor. And I'm still creeped out by it. Because the first time he did it by grabbing and fondling my outstretched hand. At the time I didn't know it was him, and I remember my sleepy brain thinking "Jesus, I need to leave a review about there being ghosts in this place." The next two times he shook me awake somehow before diving back into his bed, trying to be sneaky.

I haven't shared a bed with someone in over a decade, so being touched while sleeping was.... A shock to the system. I still vividly recall the hand fondling. It was borderline nightmare material.

Anyway, I know snoring has been discussed to death. And I'm also not going to apologize for it; I didn't know, and another pilgrim in the room (only 5 beds) says she didn't hear anything through her earplugs, so I'll assume I was not actually as loud as a chainsaw.

But people, touching sleeping pilgrims is not OK...

If you drink alcohol maybe you should cut out the Vino Tinto!!

Bob Howard · Oct 19, 2023

This issue and the discussions/disagreements regarding how to handle it have been on the Forum for as long as I can remember. I am astounded that people who know they snore are willing to inflict it on everyone in the room. Yes, yes, we walk our own Camino and it's a matter of personal rights and some other rubbish that attempts to justify one person's infliction of misery upon another. If you know you snore, you need to stay in a private room. Period. But in this era of "personal space" and "walking your own Camino" and "who are you to tell me what I can do" is simply a rational for what is essentially fundamental inconsiderate, rude behavior. I realize I am in the distinct minority in that somehow my objection to snoring is infringing on someone else's freedom. Now, if you didn't know you snore, I suppose that's a different thing. But once you find out you snore and continue to sleep in a communal setting . . . well, that's a level of self-absorption I find hard to fathom. Again, I realize I am in the distinct minority about this. So, my problem with having to hear other people snoring is just that. "my problem". And I solved "my problem" by staying in private rooms. But, somehow, that seems out-of-whack to me.

Albertagirl · Oct 19, 2023

I am surprised at the assumption that sleeping in a hotel provides silence against all the noises that you can hear coming from strangers when you're wanting to sleep. Hotels can be very noisy places. Last night I was just settling down to sleep in my "private" room when my nearest neighbour turned on the television in his/her room, very loud. I stuffed my ears with wax and eventually got to sleep. But I got almost no sleep for the night and am now awake at a ridiculously early hour, as I never really settled down. A private hotel room may give you a chance to sleep, but it is no guarantee.

GettingThere · Oct 19, 2023

Albertagirl said:
I am surprised at the assumption that sleeping in a hotel provides silence against all the noises that you can hear coming from strangers when you're wanting to sleep. Hotels can be very noisy places. Last night I was just settling down to sleep in my "private" room when my nearest neighbour turned on the television in his/her room, very loud. I stuffed my ears with wax and eventually got to sleep. But I got almost no sleep for the night and am now awake at a ridiculously early hour, as I never really settled down. A private hotel room may give you a chance to sleep, but it is no guarantee.

This is so true! A hotel room can be a great way to get a peaceful night's sleep, but definitely not always. I remember one night on the Francés - Palas de Rei I think - when I was sitting up in bed reading and wondered about a soft, rustling sound I could hear. I eventually realized it was the person in the next room breathing!! Their bed was immediately through the rather thin wall. Luckily not a snorer....

Albertagirl · Oct 19, 2023

GettingThere said:
This is so true! A hotel room can be a great way to get a peaceful night's sleep, but definitely not always. I remember one night on the Francés - Palas de Rei I think - when I was sitting up in bed reading and wondered about a soft, rustling sound I could hear. I eventually realized it was the person in the next room breathing!! Their bed was immediately through the rather thin wall. Luckily not a snorer....

Oh well, a soft, rustling sound at night could have turned out to be a creature that you definitely didn't want to hear in your sleeping area.

dougfitz · Oct 19, 2023

Bob Howard said:
This issue and the discussions/disagreements regarding how to handle it have been on the Forum for as long as I can remember. I am astounded that people who know they snore are willing to inflict it on everyone in the room. Yes, yes, we walk our own Camino and it's a matter of personal rights and some other rubbish that attempts to justify one person's infliction of misery upon another. If you know you snore, you need to stay in a private room. Period. But in this era of "personal space" and "walking your own Camino" and "who are you to tell me what I can do" is simply a rational for what is essentially fundamental inconsiderate, rude behavior. I realize I am in the distinct minority in that somehow my objection to snoring is infringing on someone else's freedom. Now, if you didn't know you snore, I suppose that's a different thing. But once you find out you snore and continue to sleep in a communal setting . . . well, that's a level of self-absorption I find hard to fathom. Again, I realize I am in the distinct minority about this. So, my problem with having to hear other people snoring is just that. "my problem". And I solved "my problem" by staying in private rooms. But, somehow, that seems out-of-whack to me.

I have a quite different point of view. Albergues provide accommodation for everyone, which includes snorers. I think it the height of arrogance that someone who is intolerant of snorers should expect someone else to pay extra for their comfort. If you are intolerant of snorers, you should be the one considering staying in a private room and paying the cost for your extra comfort. That is clearly not the responsibility of the snorer.

The fact that many snorers do choose to use private rooms does not mean that this can be demanded by others. Where that is their personal choice, it might be seen as admirable. But in any larger dormitory, removing one snorer is relatively unlikely to ensure that there is no snoring. Among all the avowed 'non-snorers' there is more than likely going to be one or more who do. My view is that it is an ineffective solution, albeit the snorer might feel safer knowing that the fundamental principle that every person’s body is inviolate won't be transgressed by someone shaking them awake during the night.

dougfitz · Oct 19, 2023

David Tallan said:
I think few hospitaleros get explicit permission. Implied permission perhaps, but I have never given explicit permission to a hospitalero in any of my albergue stays.

I agree. However, as an erstwhile hospitalero, I think that I would have been comfortable gently touching someone to catch their attention if they were still sleeping a few minutes before the albergue exit time. Although I would probably try attracting their attention by announcing the fact that they needed to get moving before resorting to touching them.

truenorthpilgrm · Oct 19, 2023

TheNerdAbides said:
I don't plan on doing anything about it. You're paying 10 euro for a cheap, shared space. Snoring is part of the package, along with smells, early risers, bathroom lights, too hot/cold temperatures, and more!

Like I said, the other person didn't hear a thing. So until I learn more from someone who doesn't fondle strangers hands in the middle of the night, I'm doing jack squat.

You know what else is part of the package? Flexibility and compromise. Aside from someone touching your hand (I'm in the "don't touch me" camp), you could give just a little and try wearing nasal strips. It's not about controlling one's environment or giving something up, rather mitigating and extending a bit of grace towards fellow pilgrims.

JabbaPapa · Oct 19, 2023

Bob Howard said:
If you know you snore, you need to stay in a private room. Period.
...
Now, if you didn't know you snore, I suppose that's a different thing. But once you find out you snore and continue to sleep in a communal setting . . . well, that's a level of self-absorption I find hard to fathom.

To remind once again that I am not a snorer, or rather a very infrequent one -- but are you aware that some may not be able to afford a private room every night ?

Are you suggesting that those who snore should be barred from the Camino or something unless they're also wealthy ?

I say -- learn how to sleep with snorers in nearby bunks. Or would that be too "self-absorbed" ?

David Tallan · Oct 19, 2023

dougfitz said:
I agree. However, as an erstwhile hospitalero, I think that I would have been comfortable gently touching someone to catch their attention if they were still sleeping a few minutes before the albergue exit time. Although I would probably try attracting their attention by announcing the fact that they needed to get moving before resorting to touching them.

That you would have been comfortable doing so just goes to show that you don't hold "Never touch someone without their explicit permission" as an absolute rule. Which is my point. I never argued against it as a guideline. I never said that guideline should not be followed in the situation in the original post. It was when it was presented as an absolute rule that I made a comment.

If you tried attracting their attention verbally and then resorted to a gentle touch I don't think you would be guilty of assault, as some in this thread seem to be implying.

Lindsay53 · Oct 19, 2023

Somme of you people need to HTFU. The Camino is not a holiday, it is an experience that may or may not bring about significant changes in your life. Walking meditation is a great term I have heard to describe the experience and if you want a holiday without the inconveniences of communal living then go elsewhere.

dougfitz · Oct 19, 2023

David Tallan said:
If you tried attracting their attention verbally and then resorted to a gentle touch I don't think you would be guilty of assault, as some in this thread seem to be implying.s

Certainly in my simple understanding of the offence of assault in Australia, a hospitalero could argue that there was a lawful reason for touching the person, ie a legitimate reason to attract their attention in this way, and the act would not have been one where a complainant might successfully suggest they were under immediate threat of unlawful violence.

While I don't doubt that there are many circumstances where touching another person might not be seen as assault, such as the example of one service member waking another so the other could perform some duty, I don't personally see that these compare to waking a stranger in a dormitory merely because they are snoring.

I don't see this in any way changing my position on this, expressed earlier in this thread, that short of an emergency, it is inappropriate to wake someone unless you have been given explicit permission to do so.

JabbaPapa · Oct 19, 2023

David Tallan said:
That you would have been comfortable doing so just goes to show that you don't hold "Never touch someone without their explicit permission" as an absolute rule.

This is to attempt to turn it into an absolute binary, whereas cases of nocturnal disturbance will range between severable variables of "I am easily disturbed in my sleep" into "I usually disturb the sleep of others".

Most pilgrims who snore and most who are occasionally disturbed by snoring are not in these extremes. The vast majority of pilgrims who snore do so quite gently, and in no Albergue-shaking manner, and most pilgrims simply are not disturbed by quiet snoring.

Similarly, most pilgrims who can be disturbed by snoring only lose any sleep if it is significantly noisier than usual.

I've lost count of how many times pilgrims who said "If you snore I'll shake you" ended up snoring all night long, and pilgrims that I have come across to have lost sleep over the normal level of snoring (i.e. pretty much every night) in a normal Albergue have been very few and far between.

I have to go for a pee several times a night, just how it is, and an Albergue without snoring as I wander off to the loo is the exception, not the rule. They tend to be the ones with particularly high-quality mattresses, sheets, and duvet bedding !!

Sure, those most disturbed by snoring, and the very heaviest snorers might be well advised to seek some isolation strategies -- but if that's not so, I can't see that nocturnal acts of physical aggression will make anything any "better".

David Tallan said:
If you tried attracting their attention verbally and then resorted to a gentle touch I don't think you would be guilty of assault, as some in this thread seem to be implying.

I really liked the German peregrina last year who cut into my snoring with a gentle but insistent whispered request. She asked me to turn over, I did, and that was the end of it.

There needs to be respect, not hostility, between pilgrims.

JabbaPapa · Oct 19, 2023

As to strategies to avoid snoring oneself, well .. apart from the sleeping position stuff mentioned by some, I've personally found that keeping a soft latter palate does help. At home, I drink tea with lemon and honey, and I think that eating animal fat in your diet will help too (whether that's fat per se or dairy -- including yoghurt -- or cheese or whatever or even olive oil which is the closest to fat that a non-fat can be, but I dunno).

Though I'm weird in that cerveza and tinto actually relax my palate instead of provoking it ; unless I exaggerate !!

That time I was snoring when the lovely German peregrina helped me with it ? That was after an unusually dry evening and simply not enough cerveza. So I snored.

We are all individuals and our behaviour is equally individual -- to be a Pilgrim of the Way of Saint James is to at least try and accept these unavoidable differences in temperament and life.

EugeneB · Oct 19, 2023

Bob Howard said:
This issue and the discussions/disagreements regarding how to handle it have been on the Forum for as long as I can remember. I am astounded that people who know they snore are willing to inflict it on everyone in the room. Yes, yes, we walk our own Camino and it's a matter of personal rights and some other rubbish that attempts to justify one person's infliction of misery upon another. If you know you snore, you need to stay in a private room. Period. But in this era of "personal space" and "walking your own Camino" and "who are you to tell me what I can do" is simply a rational for what is essentially fundamental inconsiderate, rude behavior. I realize I am in the distinct minority in that somehow my objection to snoring is infringing on someone else's freedom. Now, if you didn't know you snore, I suppose that's a different thing. But once you find out you snore and continue to sleep in a communal setting . . . well, that's a level of self-absorption I find hard to fathom. Again, I realize I am in the distinct minority about this. So, my problem with having to hear other people snoring is just that. "my problem". And I solved "my problem" by staying in private rooms. But, somehow, that seems out-of-whack to me.

While on Camino, I do my best to get private rooms because I get up 3 or 4 times during the night to use the bathroom. I don't want to inconvenience others or to risk falling/tripping in dark. On rare occasions when sleeping in public albergues, I don't take any liquids at least 3 hours before bedtime. Having said that, I always thought the Camino was about tolerance/compassion and having the attitude of "grin and bear it".

yesshesaid · Oct 21, 2023

TheNerdAbides said:
So I just crossed the midway point on the CF, and last night I learned I snored. Well I knew I did sometimes, but had no idea how often or how loudly. Sleep apps have recorded some, but only in short bursts every few hours.

But last night I can only assume that I was snoring like a chainsaw, because I was woken up three times by my bed neighbor. And I'm still creeped out by it. Because the first time he did it by grabbing and fondling my outstretched hand. At the time I didn't know it was him, and I remember my sleepy brain thinking "Jesus, I need to leave a review about there being ghosts in this place." The next two times he shook me awake somehow before diving back into his bed, trying to be sneaky.

I haven't shared a bed with someone in over a decade, so being touched while sleeping was.... A shock to the system. I still vividly recall the hand fondling. It was borderline nightmare material.

Anyway, I know snoring has been discussed to death. And I'm also not going to apologize for it; I didn't know, and another pilgrim in the room (only 5 beds) says she didn't hear anything through her earplugs, so I'll assume I was not actually as loud as a chainsaw.

But people, touching sleeping pilgrims is not OK...

Why in the world would you sleep in albergues without wearing earplugs??? Seems like the most polite way to take care of your own needs without being annoying to others.

Bob Howard · Oct 21, 2023

Ok, the collective wisdom of the Forum has caused me to rethink my somewhat over the top response about snoring. I survived four years of communal living in the military, including seagoing accommodations that make Camino close quarters seem like resort living. So, I should darn well be able to tolerate some snoring. A point made by a previous post makes me rethink my doctrinaire original response--it is a truly wonderful Camino phenomenon that there is a string of remarkably affordable albergue accommodations, especially on the Frances. At $7-15 nightly, to the extent that the albergue experience allows someone on a budget to experience the Camino, that in and of itself is enough for me to back away from complaining about snoring. Besides, if I am out of sync with Forum veterans with many years Camino experience, then my minority opinion probably needs reconsidering. Dougfitz is one of my favorite members here in that he inevitably has a reasoned and rational response to whatever the issue/query is. If I have an opinion contrary to Doug, then I should probably need to rethink it. The snoring problem is not really a problem for me anyway inasmuch as I now pretty much stay in single-room accommodations. I fully understand that snoring is involuntary and I apologize for my earlier comments.

By the way, in July at Orrisson, there was a guy in the 8-bed room I was in that was snoring loudly during an afternoon nap. I dreaded what the night be like, but when he retired for the evening, he extracted his CPAP from his pack, and slept the night away without a sound, except for the barely audible hum of the CPAP--a hum that, given the alternative, sounded like a lullaby to me.

frannie z · Oct 21, 2023

TheNerdAbides said:
I don't plan on doing anything about it. You're paying 10 euro for a cheap, shared space. Snoring is part of the package, along with smells, early risers, bathroom lights, too hot/cold temperatures, and more!

Like I said, the other person didn't hear a thing. So until I learn more from someone who doesn't fondle strangers hands in the middle of the night, I'm doing jack squat.

So frankly why do you post something about your snoring if you’re not going to do anthing about it except complain that its not ok to be touched? I agree its not ok to be touched but as you said youre only paying 10 euros …

dougfitz · Oct 21, 2023

frannie z said:
So frankly why do you post something about your snoring if you’re not going to do anthing about it except complain that its not ok to be touched? I agree its not ok to be touched but as you said youre only paying 10 euros …

After 70 posts, many quite illuminating in my view, and a couple of mine, why would you object to the matter being raised?

trecile · Oct 21, 2023

frannie z said:
I agree its not ok to be touched but as you said youre only paying 10 euros

I don't see that the cost of the lodging has anything to do with whether or not it's okay to touch someone while they are sleeping

CalgaryLynn · Oct 22, 2023

Problem easily solved with ear plugs.....I have a very noisy, senior dog who coughs and pants and gets up and wanders around during the night... Ear plugs have solved the problem. Same thing with snorers, I imagine.

Kirkie · Oct 22, 2023

TheNerdAbides said:
So I just crossed the midway point on the CF, and last night I learned I snored. Well I knew I did sometimes, but had no idea how often or how loudly. Sleep apps have recorded some, but only in short bursts every few hours.

But last night I can only assume that I was snoring like a chainsaw, because I was woken up three times by my bed neighbor. And I'm still creeped out by it. Because the first time he did it by grabbing and fondling my outstretched hand. At the time I didn't know it was him, and I remember my sleepy brain thinking "Jesus, I need to leave a review about there being ghosts in this place." The next two times he shook me awake somehow before diving back into his bed, trying to be sneaky.

I haven't shared a bed with someone in over a decade, so being touched while sleeping was.... A shock to the system. I still vividly recall the hand fondling. It was borderline nightmare material.

Anyway, I know snoring has been discussed to death. And I'm also not going to apologize for it; I didn't know, and another pilgrim in the room (only 5 beds) says she didn't hear anything through her earplugs, so I'll assume I was not actually as loud as a chainsaw.

But people, touching sleeping pilgrims is not OK...

I can hardly believe this thread is less than a week old. I have looked intermittently. Now, reading the op again, the final sentence looks to be the essence. You have reason with you, as it is graciously said in French...
Snoring is part of life. Two nieces told me many years ago they implored their dad, my brother: dad, wait till we are asleep, please!
I know I snore. I have no advice for the op, except, if possible, warn the persons in the same sleeping room: please, do not touch me if I snore.

mattythedog · Oct 22, 2023

TheNerdAbides said:
I don't plan on doing anything about it. You're paying 10 euro for a cheap, shared space. Snoring is part of the package, along with smells, early risers, bathroom lights, too hot/cold temperatures, and more!

Like I said, the other person didn't hear a thing. So until I learn more from someone who doesn't fondle strangers hands in the middle of the night, I'm doing jack squat.

Just because one person did not hear you does not mean that you did not snore like a truck on a decline with the Jake brake blaring. Best way to wake a snorer (or anyone) is to gently shake the mattress or pillow; never touch them. Then quietly tell them they were snoring and request they turn on their side. Most comply. None have ever gotten angry...that I know of. I always wear the silicone wax earplugs pushed in deep and sealed tightly, but there are just some frequencies of snoring that penetrate loudly.

Former member 104756 · Oct 22, 2023

Kirkie said:
I have no advice for the op, except, if possible, warn the persons in the same sleeping room: please, do not touch me if I snore.

And, on the other hand, if you know you snore loudly and you don’t mind people tapping you to let you know you’re snoring:

‘If I’m snoring and disturbing you, please feel free to tap me on the shoulder to let me know.’

This happened in a dormitory room we shared in an albergue in France a few weeks ago. The same person said the same thing to us and his other ‘room mates’ a few days later in another dorm. He was tapped once that I know of, and he turned over and the snoring stopped.

Marbe2 · Oct 22, 2023

Is it really appropriate to touch a stranger who's snoring!? What gives anyone the right to touch someone under those circumstances? Does anyone think at that moment the snorer is going to be able to stop doing it because they were awakened?! Never put ones hands on another person without their permission unless it is a life emergency (like awakening them because there is a fire).

TheNerdAbides said:
I don't plan on doing anything about it. You're paying 10 euro for a cheap, shared space. Snoring is part of the package, along with smells, early risers, bathroom lights, too hot/cold temperatures, and more!

OK! No no one should touch you. But how about a little consideration for those, since you now know, you may keep others awake much of the night? There are things you can do to reduce your impact on others! I think each pilgrim needs to make every effort to be considerate of other pilgrims rather than just rationalizing it is a cheap night and why should one have to try and make accommodations when other inconveniences may occur. Would hope you might stop the what aboutisms and as a pilgrim ask how you can make it easier on your comrades?

Lurch · Oct 23, 2023

If someone is keeping me awake, IMO it is OK to touch, not grope, the individual. It has happened to me several times on the Camino. Afterwards, I turned on my side to sleep, without concern. To think that I would spend the night disturbing others is anathema to me.

dougfitz · Oct 24, 2023

Lurch said:
If someone is keeping me awake, IMO it is OK to touch, not grope, the individual. It has happened to me several times on the Camino. Afterwards, I turned on my side to sleep, without concern. To think that I would spend the night disturbing others is anathema to me.

I'm not sure that I understand your position here. You suggest that disturbing others is anathema to you, but you are prepared to disturb someone keeping you awake. Apart from appearing incredibly selfish disrupting another person for your own personal comfort, your two statements appear completely contradictory.

David Tallan · Oct 24, 2023

Lurch said:
If someone is keeping me awake, IMO it is OK to touch, not grope, the individual. It has happened to me several times on the Camino. Afterwards, I turned on my side to sleep, without concern. To think that I would spend the night disturbing others is anathema to me.

dougfitz said:
I'm not sure that I understand your position here. You suggest that disturbing others is anathema to you, but you are prepared to disturb someone keeping you awake. Apart from appearing incredibly selfish disrupting another person for your own personal comfort, your two statements appear completely contradictory.

I don't think they are necessarily contradictory, although that doesn't mean that I necessarily agree with Lurch.

If Lurch were to say that it is okay for him to touch others but not for others to touch him, that would certainly be inconsistent or at the very least unfair. I think the assumption underlying Lurch's statement is that a snoring person is disturbing a room full of people for an extended period of time. A person touching a snoring person is disturbing a single person for a short period of time. From these assumptions Lurch concludes it is okay to temporarily disturb an individual to prevent a long term disturbance for others. That doesn't strike me as contradictory. Lurch may also hold that the disturbance of being woken and asked to turn on one's side is minor (he seems to have found it minor when it happened to him) while the disturbance of being kept awake by snoring is major and one that he would find in anathema to inflict on others.

Personally, I'm not sure that the assumptions always or often hold. Some people can go quickly back to sleep after being awoke (as Lurch reports doing). Others cannot, perhaps especially if they have been woken by strangers. So the disturbance for the snorer isn't necessarily so much shorter than the disturbance for the snoree(s). As well, there may be many snorers in the room, and who knows many in the room may be successfully sleeping through the snoring. That can affect the math that says the one is disturbing the many. And, of course, there is plenty of evidence in this thread that, unlike Lurch, many find being awoken by a touch to be a major disturbance and others find the snoring of others a minor disturbance. If the assumptions don't hold, that can cast doubt on the conclusion that rests upon them.

dougfitz · Oct 24, 2023

David Tallan said:
I don't think they are necessarily contradictory, although that doesn't mean that I necessarily agree with Lurch.

If Lurch were to say that it is okay for him to touch others but not for others to touch him, that would certainly be inconsistent or at the very least unfair. I think the assumption underlying Lurch's statement is that a snoring person is disturbing a room full of people for an extended period of time. A person touching a snoring person is disturbing a single person for a short period of time. From these assumptions Lurch concludes it is okay to temporarily disturb an individual to prevent a long term disturbance for others. That doesn't strike me as contradictory. Lurch may also hold that the disturbance of being woken and asked to turn on one's side is minor (he seems to have found it minor when it happened to him) while the disturbance of being kept awake by snoring is major and one that he would find in anathema to inflict on others.

Personally, I'm not sure that the assumptions always or often hold. Some people can go quickly back to sleep after being awoke (as Lurch reports doing). Others cannot, perhaps especially if they have been woken by strangers. So the disturbance for the snorer isn't necessarily so much shorter than the disturbance for the snoree(s). As well, there may be many snorers in the room, and who knows many in the room may be successfully sleeping through the snoring. That can affect the math that says the one is disturbing the many. And, of course, there is plenty of evidence in this thread that, unlike Lurch, many find being awoken by a touch to be a major disturbance and others find the snoring of others a minor disturbance. If the assumptions don't hold, that can cast doubt on the conclusion that rests upon them.

@David Tallan, I think the assumptions you propose to justify @Lurch's position are too easily falsifiable for the very reasons you outline in the second part of your post. My personal experience indicates those latter conditions not only can, but do exist. I have woken and been kept awake by different noises in an albergue dormitory on a couple of occasions. I have also been woken by someone annoyed, so he claimed, at the noise of my CPAP machine. His actions woke my wife, sleeping in the bunk below me, who was so concerned that this person would do that again that she was unable to return to sleep. He was able to return to sleep, and continue his snoring!

What I don't think we know, and perhaps can never know, is the balance between the different scenarios you propose. In which case, the argument that there is greater good in waking a snorer is unsustainable. More, it really becomes a selfish act by one individual rather then being a demonstrable benefit to all the pilgrims in a dormitory if we don't know what that balance is.

J Willhaus · Oct 24, 2023

Summary, some people snore. Some people don't snore. Some people are bothered by snoring (and CPAP noise). Some people are not bothered by these noises. Some people don't mind being awakened by others with a touch, a shake, or a spoken word. Other people find that completely invasive and do not under any circumstances want you to touch them or wake them no matter what. Some people are kind of in-between and would be ok if you woke them for say a fire, to kick them out of the albergue in the morning, or some other relatively specific reason. Some people want snorers to get their own room. Some snorers (and possibly others) want non-snorers and light sleepers to get their own room

It is the Camino. It doesn't seem likely we'll come to an agreement in this thread. Is that something we can agree on?

Rebekah Scott · Oct 25, 2023

I'm a hospitalera. Sometimes I have wake up people who are sleeping, for all kinds of reasons. I speak to them first, then I put a hand gently on their foot or ankle and give it a shake. Feet/ankles aren't such sensitive spaces, they are usually covered up.
Pilgrims willingly foreswear a lot of personal comforts, including personal space, when they take on the pilgrim persona. You have a right to have your person respected, but a tap on the back or a shake on the ankle is NOT a violation, IMHO.

Marge666 · Nov 1, 2023

TheNerdAbides said:
So I just crossed the midway point on the CF, and last night I learned I snored. Well I knew I did sometimes, but had no idea how often or how loudly. Sleep apps have recorded some, but only in short bursts every few hours.

But last night I can only assume that I was snoring like a chainsaw, because I was woken up three times by my bed neighbor. And I'm still creeped out by it. Because the first time he did it by grabbing and fondling my outstretched hand. At the time I didn't know it was him, and I remember my sleepy brain thinking "Jesus, I need to leave a review about there being ghosts in this place." The next two times he shook me awake somehow before diving back into his bed, trying to be sneaky.

I haven't shared a bed with someone in over a decade, so being touched while sleeping was.... A shock to the system. I still vividly recall the hand fondling. It was borderline nightmare material.

Anyway, I know snoring has been discussed to death. And I'm also not going to apologize for it; I didn't know, and another pilgrim in the room (only 5 beds) says she didn't hear anything through her earplugs, so I'll assume I was not actually as loud as a chainsaw.

But people, touching sleeping pilgrims is not OK...

Never mind. That’s the beauty of sharing a room and it’s only one night!

nycwalking · Nov 2, 2023

I sleep like the living dead.

Once upon a time two women had a fistfight right by my head in a dorm.

Upon awakening no one could believe I slept through it.

If you snore sleep near me. I won’t hear anything.

Um! On second thought maybe not.

I toss and turn quite a bit. 0n camino I’ve been shushed in dorms a few times.

Marbe2 · Nov 2, 2023

Rebekah Scott said:
I'm a hospitalera. Sometimes I have wake up people who are sleeping, for all kinds of reasons. I speak to them first, then I put a hand gently on their foot or ankle and give it a shake. Feet/ankles aren't such sensitive spaces, they are usually covered up.
Pilgrims willingly foreswear a lot of personal comforts, including personal space, when they take on the pilgrim persona. You have a right to have your person respected, but a tap on the back or a shake on the ankle is NOT a violation,

To me, there is a qualitative difference in what you do and what was described above. Yes, the hospitalera may need to wake up a pilgrim for a very good reason that can’t wait till morning and I really appreciate your sensitivity in the way you go about doing so. I am sure most pilgrims are grateful that you do/did so.

While I appreciate the limited space available to each pilgrim, no pilgrim should be putting there hands on another pilgrim because the pilgrim snores. It is violation of that pilgrims private space, their body. Because one sleeps in a common room one does not give up that very limited space.

EugeneB · Nov 2, 2023

Marbe2 said:
To me, there is a qualitative difference in what you do and what was described above. Yes, the hospitalera may need to wake up a pilgrim for a very good reason that can’t wait till morning and I really appreciate your sensitivity in the way you go about doing so. I am sure most pilgrims are grateful that you do/did so.

While I appreciate the limited space available to each pilgrim, no pilgrim should be putting there hands on another pilgrim because the pilgrim snores. It is violation of that pilgrims private space, their body. Because one sleeps in a common room one does not give up that very limited space.

Only in case of emergency or personal safety, should one touch another pilgrim physically, uninvited. Just my opinion.

David Tallan · Nov 3, 2023

EugeneB said:
Only in case of emergency or personal safety, should one touch another pilgrim physically, uninvited. Just my opinion.

So you wouldn't condone what Rebekah describes above, which is neither emergency nor personal safety but rather a need to clean the dormitory?

Tincatinker · Nov 3, 2023

On several occasions over the years I’ve slept in the Plaza Nueva, Bilbao. Great architecture, excellent bars and comfortable benches under the arcades. I’ve always been grateful that the cleaning crews have gently shaken me awake before turning on their hoses…

alexwalker · Nov 3, 2023

I don't mind snoring: I use earplugs. Let people have their well-earned rest.

But there have been nights when I wished I also had noseplugs, espesially with older men in the dorm (I am 69, but not an offender that way (I hope))... I still remember (will never forget...) spending a night in a small room without windows on the VdlP with three old French guys...

Kathor1 · Nov 3, 2023

David Tallan said:
neither emergency nor personal safety but rather a need to clean the dormitory?

As someone who is firmly in the "Don't you ever touch me when I am asleep" camp I wonder why there is a need to be quiet when trying to wake up the odd pilgrim from his or her slumber in the morning when it is time to clean the dormitory. Why not make loud noises instead?

I can just about understand that a pilgrim tries to be quiet in the middle of the night and therefore feels compelled to touch a snoring pilgrim but in the morning when everyone has to be awake and leave anyway? If a hospitalero does not have a loud enough voice to wake up a pilgrim can they not get two pot lids from the kitchen to bang them together or get hold of an Osprey backpack and blow its emergency whistle? It would raise me from my sleep, I am pretty certain of that.

Just wondering ...

lalaone · Nov 3, 2023

My mind keeps turning back to the concept of fiduciary responsibility. When I think of how disturbed I would feel being touched by a fellow pilgrim while sleeping ... and why that possibly strikes different from a hospitalero/a, a train conductor, a police officer, a doctor, a street cleaner ... maybe it's because there is an implicit trust or contract with people doing their jobs. At the very least, the groggy mind could grasp a reason "why." It fits an existing mental map: not missing a stop, not breaking the law, getting a check-up, checking out at an agreed-on time, not being hosed down on a park bench. All of these things are unstated agreements. More hairs could be split, but snoring does not fall into any of those categories - to me, anyway. If somebody can act gently and kindly, outside a fiduciary role, all the better! No doubt many do. That is wonderful. It's still a lot to ask of a person awakened at the shock of being touched...JIMHO.

Marbe2 · Nov 3, 2023

David Tallan said:
So you wouldn't condone what Rebekah describes above, which is neither emergency nor personal safety but rather a need to clean the dormitory.

I don’t know why Rebekah had/has to wake up pilgrims….she indicated for various reasons, some likely were emergencies. If she had to wake one pilgrim up to”clean the room” in the middle of the night, that would wake up everyone? Not logical unless they all made a mess? She safely, thoughtfully, gently and respectfully wakes up her guests..and that is very different than what was described above by the OP. No pilgrim should ever touch another pilgrim without permission unless it's a real emergency
.

EugeneB · Nov 3, 2023

David Tallan said:
So you wouldn't condone what Rebekah describes above, which is neither emergency nor personal safety but rather a need to clean the dormitory?

I guess there's an exception to every rule. Also if there was a stipulation that pilgrims needed to vacate the premise at a certain time, then the Hospitalero/a can wake up the (over)sleeper.

David Tallan · Nov 4, 2023

Marbe2 said:
I don’t know why Rebekah had/has to wake up pilgrims….she indicated for various reasons, some likely were emergencies. If she had to wake one pilgrim up to”clean the room” in the middle of the night, that would wake up everyone? Not logical unless they all made a mess? She safely, thoughtfully, gently and respectfully wakes up her guests..and that is very different than what was described above by the OP. No pilgrim should ever touch another pilgrim without permission unless it's a real emergency
.

As a hospitalera she may need to wake a pilgrim in the morning. She does try and wake them without touching them, as she describes. But she also says that sometimes that is not sufficient.

David Tallan · Nov 4, 2023

Kathar1na said:
As someone who is firmly in the "Don't you ever touch me when I am asleep" camp I wonder why there is a need to be quiet when trying to wake up the odd pilgrim from his or her slumber in the morning when it is time to clean the dormitory. Why not make loud noises instead?

I can just about understand that a pilgrim tries to be quiet in the middle of the night and therefore feels compelled to touch a snoring pilgrim but in the morning when everyone has to be awake and leave anyway? If a hospitalero does not have a loud enough voice to wake up a pilgrim can they not get two pot lids from the kitchen to bang them together or get hold of an Osprey backpack and blow its emergency whistle? It would raise me from my sleep, I am pretty certain of that.

Just wondering ...

She did say that she tries to wake them with noise first, but that sometimes it is not sufficient. Maybe they are deep sleepers with effective ear plugs. I'm not sure.

Lindsay53 · Nov 4, 2023

Kathar1na said:
As someone who is firmly in the "Don't you ever touch me when I am asleep" camp I wonder why there is a need to be quiet when trying to wake up the odd pilgrim from his or her slumber in the morning when it is time to clean the dormitory. Why not make loud noises instead?

I can just about understand that a pilgrim tries to be quiet in the middle of the night and therefore feels compelled to touch a snoring pilgrim but in the morning when everyone has to be awake and leave anyway? If a hospitalero does not have a loud enough voice to wake up a pilgrim can they not get two pot lids from the kitchen to bang them together or get hold of an Osprey backpack and blow its emergency whistle? It would raise me from my sleep, I am pretty certain of that.

Just wondering ...

There was one albergue where they played Gregorian chants in the morning as a wake up call. Roncesvalles?

DoughnutANZ · Nov 4, 2023

Lindsay53 said:
There was one albergue where they played Gregorian chants in the morning as a wake up call. Roncesvalles?

Also the German albergue in Pamplona

Lindsay53 · Nov 4, 2023

DoughnutANZ said:
Also the German albergue in Pamplona

That may be where I heard it.

Kitch · Saturday at 4:39 PM

Ok, so this group is young at heart! Love it. I am thinking it actually is a little more exciting to just wing it a little more on my hike. I guess one question I have is did you just have your...

emmarosegardner · Thursday at 4:43 PM

Has anyone walked the Camino while "shy" or introverted? I (26 f, USA) am walking the Camino Frances in May 2025 mostly excited but also a bit nervous about the social aspect of the journey. I...

pablovergara · Sunday at 10:17 PM

Greetings all While travelling from Camponaraya to Cacabelos I stumbled this nice little park area with benches and a BBQ area, right past the Wine factory and next to a Car Wash and Gas Station...

Robo · Thursday at 8:46 AM

Just curious. I'm sure we ran a poll somewhere. But I wonder in any given year, what the % of return Pilgrims might be? A large proportion of us here seem to 'repeat offenders' but we are only a...

wisepilgrim · Friday at 11:29 PM

The Camino Planner As the click-clack of walking sticks fades here in Santiago, the tap-tap of my keyboard picks up with exciting changes planned for 2025. Earlier this summer, we published the...

pablovergara · Saturday at 10:28 AM

Given the nature of this post, the Moderators ask that forum members contact @pablovergara directly, either via the direct message feature on the forum or via the other social media sites where he...

Last night I learned I snore...

New Member

Veteran Member

"True Pilgrim"

Veteran_Member

Veteran Member

New Member

Active Member

Veteran Member

Buen Camino!

Active Member

Veteran Member

Active Member

Member

"True Pilgrim"

"True Pilgrim"

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

New Member

Veteran Member

New Member

"True Pilgrim"

Veteran Member

New Member

Active Member

Member

Member

Veteran Member

Veteran_Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

not a new member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Member

Moderator

Moderator

Veteran Member

Active Member

Veteran Member

New Member

Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

Moderator

Member

Ka whati te tai ka kai te tōreapango

Member

Active Member

Active Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

not a new member

"True Pilgrim"

Moderator

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

"True Pilgrim"

"True Pilgrim"

New Member

A Walker

Active Member

Active Member

Veteran Member

Moderator

Active Member