Is the Napoleon Route from SJPP defintely closed until March?

[Kit Reyes]

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Is the Napoleon Route from SJPP defintely closed until March? Or will it open if there is no snow? Thinking of doing a winter camino at the end of the month.

 

[Tincatinker]

I refer you to this previous thread: https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...n-closed-1-nov-to-31-march.51469/#post-564570

 

[Bradypus]

Is the Napoleon Route from SJPP defintely closed until March?

Yes

 

[trecile]

It is closed through March. It opens April 1st, weather permitting.

 

[trecile]

Is the Napoleon Route from SJPP defintely closed until March? Or will it open if there is no snow? Thinking of doing a winter camino at the end of the month.

You will take the Valcarlos route in March.

 

[alexwalker]

You will take the Valcarlos route in March.

You will have to take the Valcarlos route in March.

 

[Sep]

Is the Napoleon Route from SJPP defintely closed until March? Or will it open if there is no snow? Thinking of doing a winter camino at the end of the month.

We are going to start mid March through Valcarlos, then have a close look at the Dragonte Route at the other end. There are some interesting descriptions and pictures online that suggest this might be an interesting higher alpine substitute. If you are leaving in January, I don't know if this would be an option. I gather it is not that well marked and it sounds like it does get a fair bit of snow.

Here is an interesting link on Dragonte: https://www.packing-up-the-pieces.com/camino-dragonte-route-camino-frances/

 

[Tincatinker]

The last time I did walked from Villafranca de Bierzo to O Cebreiro and beyond in early April there was enough snow about to provide all the challenges I was in need of. I’ve failed to complete the Dragonte variant twice without snow to add to the fun.

Each to their own

 

[Sep]

The last time I did walked from Villafranca de Bierzo to O Cebreiro and beyond in early April there was enough snow about to provide all the challenges I was in need of. I’ve failed to complete the Dragonte variant twice without snow to add to the fun.

Each to their own

It definitely seems like more of a mountain hike than a typical camino trail from what I have read at this point. Navigation seems to be one of the bigger challenges. Appreciate your perspective having attempted it previously Tincatinker. For us this will be a call at the time with careful consideration of the weather.

 

[davejsy]

Out of interest; how do they stop people taking the Napoleon route during closed season assuming the snow doesn't do so?

 

[Bradypus]

Out of interest; how do they stop people taking the Napoleon route during closed season assuming the snow doesn't do so?

Signs announcing the closure are put up on the road leaving SJPDP. Technically the route is legally open on the French side - the closure applies only over the border in Spain. But French police will redirect pilgrims who attempt the route if they become aware of them. Mostly people are simply expected to obey the law but with the prospect of a very large stick by way of fines to encourage them to do so.

 

[alexwalker]

Signs announcing the closure are put up on the road leaving SJPDP. Technically the route is legally open on the French side - the closure applies only over the border in Spain. But French police will redirect pilgrims who attempt the route if they become aware of them. Mostly people are simply expected to obey the law but with the prospect of a very large stick by way of fines to encourage them to do so.

If a rescue operation is needed during closed months, the fines will leave you in deep sh*t... (I've heard 5.000 € + expenses).

If so, No Camino, no vino...

 

[Bradypus]

If a rescue operation is needed, the fines will leave you in deep sh*t... (I've heard 5.000 € + expenses).

If so, No Camino, no vino...

A price list was published a few years back!
Post in thread 'Route Napoleon closed in winter.' https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/route-napoleon-closed-in-winter.43527/post-451601

 

[alexwalker]

A price list was published a few years back!
Post in thread 'Route Napoleon closed in winter.' https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/route-napoleon-closed-in-winter.43527/post-451601

That's much worse/better (cost-wise) than I expected! It is a crazy selfish idea to put other people (rescue crews) into possible life-threatening situations!

 

[trecile]

This blog post is excellent in explaining the history and reasons for the Napoleon route ban from November 1st to April 1st.

Winter closure of the Camino to Roncesvalles - Santiago in Love

Winter closure of the high route to Roncesvalles: access to its Spanish part is prohibited. No choice but to take the low route via Valcarlos!

santiagoinlove.com

 

[Monasp]

La Route Napoléon depuis SJPP est-elle définitivement fermée jusqu'en mars ? Ou est-ce qu'il s'ouvrira s'il n'y a pas de neige ? Je pense faire un camino d'hiver à la fin du mois.

Is the Napoleon Route from SJPP defintely closed until March? Or will it open if there is no snow? Thinking of doing a winter camino at the end of the month.

Yes, it's an order from the Government of Navarre

 

[MichelleElynHogan]

If starting in SJPdP, the only allowed route is through Valcarlos now through end of March, or longer, depending on conditions. Napoleon will not open until it is clear of snow all the way to Roncesvalles.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Is the Napoleon Route from SJPP defintely closed until March? Or will it open if there is no snow? Thinking of doing a winter camino at the end of the month.

Yes or no, but administratively it is closed.

It's closed, so that if you go up there anyway and get into trouble, and need to call for help, then you will be subjected to a very heavy fine.

If you can get through there with snowshoes or hoka skis or cross-country ones or whatnot and with the proper mountain winter kit and so on, OK maybe; otherwise ONLY if it's bone dry on the day with no wind nor any other bad weather is it occasionally tolerated, IF you're physically capable AND you accept full penal responsibility if you are not.

Honestly ? As a plan, go via Valcarlos.

 

[Kathor1]

Out of interest; how do they stop people taking the Napoleon route during closed season assuming the snow doesn't do so?

In addition to the provision of information - signs about the absolute prohibition by Spanish law to walk on the Napoleon route from SJPP to Roncesvalles from 1 November until 31 March are put up and visible along the trail from SJPP until the French-Spanish border, information is provided at the pilgrim office in SJPP, international pilgrim associations are asked to provide the information, and there is information in guidebooks, in the news media and on social media such as this forum - not much else is done.

There are always people who are uninformed or misinformed about laws that apply to them; who misinform others (this thread is no exception); who believe that the law does not apply to them because they are exceptional or a situation is exceptional. Things work fairly well in our societies because these people are a minority. May it remain so.

 

[JabbaPapa]

There are always people who are uninformed or misinformed about laws that apply to them; who misinform others (this thread is no exception); who believe that the law does not apply to them because they are exceptional or a situation is exceptional.

No.

It's a bad idea and you should seriously avoid it.

The only circumstances in winter where I've seen it "tolerated" -- i.e. NOT permitted -- have been in exceptionally mild conditions.

There's nothing at all about any "the law does not apply to them", and I have no idea why you suggested that, but rather some peculiar circumstances where the legal Authorities do not prosecute people who are capable of the walk in good weather conditions. Which won't stop the French Police from turning you away if you get up there.

Toleration is NOT permission, and if it's windy or snowy or whatever up there, and/or you set up over there without the ability to manage it, then you're putting yourself and others in danger, and if you need to send an SOS then you will also be punished with a very hefty fine.

Just don't.

Nevertheless, as is often the case in both France and Spain, realities on the ground and on the day are not always strictly defined by words on paper.

--

But as to planning in March, there is no reasonable plan except via Valcarlos -- and even outside the legal period of closure, the Napoleon route can conversely be closed for bad weather reasons.

 

[JerryStroebele]

Spain and France are wonderful inviting countries to pilgrims from around the world. Their peoples offer us a lot for very little money in return. They tolerate our crowds, our messes and our ignorance. Please don't jeopardize our good fortune by flouting the very few restrictions on our passages. The Caminos are pilgrimages, not endurance contests. By the way, I was almost blown off the Lepoeder Pass of the Napoleon Route by strong winds this past October and I am overweight. Buen Camino

 

[trecile]

If starting in SJPdP, the only allowed route is through Valcarlos now through end of April, or longer. Napoleon will not open until it is clear of snow all the way to Roncesvalles.

The closure of the Napoleon route is through the end of March, not April.

 

[jhoughtn]

I am constantly amazed how difficult it is to understand the words CLOSED and NO.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I am constantly amazed how difficult it is to understand the words CLOSED and NO.

Especially if planning several months ahead into a period when it's pretty straightforwardly closed.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I was almost blown off the Lepoeder Pass of the Napoleon Route by strong winds this past October and I am overweight.

I crossed 1st January 2023 from Roncesvalles to SJPP via Valcarlos, and the wind at the top of the tarmac pass was very powerful indeed, and even from there it was quite clear that it was FAR worse on the Napoleon Route on the other side of the valley.

There's no joking with these mountain conditions.

 

[Trekker One]

As stated closed to April 1st, open after that weather permitting

Was closed when I started my Camino on April 8th in 2016. Walked the Valcarlos route which was pretty snow packed as well as I reached Roncesvales, but an interesting walk otherwise.
It is my belief people are way too focused on doing the Napoleon route. That their Camino will be spoiled or 'lessor' in some way if they miss it due to the weather.
It is only one day out of many interesting walking days so don't get disgruntled if the 'weather gods' have other plans for you on your first day of walking!

 

[VNwalking]

A everyone has said.
Yes until April 1, weather permitting.

And no, there's nothing to stop someone from going up there if they're selfish enough and stupid enough to want the experience at the expense of whoever who might have to rescue them. The obsession with the Napoleon route is mystifying.

 

[Bradypus]

The Burguete bomberos were called out today to rescue two young men from the Route Napoleon. In snowy conditions right in the middle of the closed period.

Rescatados dos peregrinos italianos en el refugio de Izandorre

Bomberos de Burguete han sido los encargados de completar el rescate de dos varones de 25 años afectados por la mala climatología

www.diariodenavarra.es

 

[Tincatinker]

The Burguete bomberos were called out today to rescue two young men from the Route Napoleon. In snowy conditions right in the middle of the closed period.

Rescatados dos peregrinos italianos en el refugio de Izandorre

Bomberos de Burguete han sido los encargados de completar el rescate de dos varones de 25 años afectados por la mala climatología

www.diariodenavarra.es

Ah well. That's a few more €'s in the Bomberos Xmas party fund ( At least I very much hope it is!). Meanwhile isn't it time that the Orreaga-Roncesvalles started issuing "Prat" badges to the pilgrims that are retrieved and delivered by the Bomberos - to be worn, prominently, for the rest of the Camino....

 

[SabsP]

A everyone has said.
Yes until April 1, weather permitting.

And no, there's nothing to stop someone from going up there if they're selfish enough and stupid enough to want the experience at the expense of whoever who might have to rescue them. The obsession with the Napoleon route is mystifying.

Alas...those with " a bucketlist ".

 

[Bradypus]

Ah well. That's a few more €'s in the Bomberos Xmas party fund ( At least I very much hope it is!).

Has anyone actually been fined and/or charged for a closed-season rescue on the Route Napoleon? I haven't heard of it happening.

 

[Icacos]

Has anyone actually been fined and/or charged for a closed-season rescue on the Route Napoleon? I haven't heard of it happening.

And has any fined person actually paid up?

 

[Kathor1]

Has anyone actually been fined and/or charged for a closed-season rescue on the Route Napoleon? I haven't heard of it happening.

And has any fined person actually paid up?

Nobody knows the answer to these two questions.

However, in case one wonders how to make someone pay: They may confiscate your passport. I am sure that might help with increasing a willingness to pay the cost and/or the fines associated with a rescue operation when you are non-EU. And within the EU there are procedures to enforce such payments when police or court are in one country and the individual concerned is in another country. See this recent article (in Spanish) about How much does a mountain rescue cost and who should pay for it? The various regional emergency services have different rates / fines if you need a mountain rescue. As so often, there are differences between the various regions of Spain.

On Spanish territory, the Napoleon route is subject to the laws of the region of Navarre (Navarra).

 

[davejsy]

For clarification - I would not seek to walk the route when closed. And I understand why it's closed.

My question was more based on what the legal blocks were to walking the route given many worse and higher passes/routes have no such restrictions - other than you might possibly die.

 

[Tincatinker]

Dunno is the answer to that one. I know the Swiss are very efficient at charging those who screw up on the Eiger and that there are crews working the Dolomites with the same ruthless efficiency as a salvage tug crew in the Thames approaches. I really would like to think that Navarra applies it’s legislation but, no, I’ve never seen a report of an actual application of the available penalties.

 

[Tincatinker]

For clarification - I would not seek to walk the route when closed. And I understand why it's closed.

My question was more based on what the legal blocks were to walking the route given many worse and higher passes/routes have no such restrictions - other than you might possibly die.

@davejsy my theory has always been that poor Navarra has had to deal with the ill-prepared, clueless and worse for a couple of decades now. The baseline for Castillla-Leon and Galicia is that if the average Pilg has made it that far they’re probably capable of climbing a hill and getting to the other side in reasonable order and without requiring the deployment of emergency resources better applied to the needs of the local population.

The Guardia Civil will occasionally pull pilgrims off route and to shelter if they see the necessity. But, unlike Navarra, the local authorities remain, mostly, untroubled by the passing throng

 

[davejsy]

@davejsy my theory has always been that poor Navarra has had to deal with the I’ll-prepared, clueless and worse for a couple of decades now. The baseline for Castillla-Leon and Galicia is that if the average Pilg has made it that far they’re probably capable of climbing a hill and getting to the other side in reasonable order and without requiring the deployment of emergency resources better applied to the needs of the local population.

The Guardia Civil will occasionally pull pilgrims off route and to shelter if they see the necessity. But, unlike Navarra, the local authorities remain, mostly, untroubled by the passing throng

I think this is exactly the case, and understandable.

I think the original question of the thread was quite reasonable, but of course, that scenario would be quite difficult for the authorities to entertain, but maybe with climate change (if you are a believer) something that will happen eventually.

 

[henrythedog]

For clarification - I would not seek to walk the route when closed. And I understand why it's closed.

My question was more based on what the legal blocks were to walking the route given many worse and higher passes/routes have no such restrictions - other than you might possibly die.

Well, you raise a reasonable point.

There are countless routes over the Pyrenees which are ‘open’ all year round. Some in close proximity to the ‘Napoleon Route’, and you’re free to use those routes at your own risk as you see fit.

The usual foot-traffic from St Jean may contain a proportion of well experienced winter walkers and climbers, but the local authorities have neither the time, resources or inclination to separate out that minority from the majority with unproven experience.

If you’re a weather-beaten mountaineer, tough; go elsewhere or wait until the route is open.

I’ve climbed extensively in Scottish winter conditions, and there are regular posters on here formerly of the Norwegian Haeren; but rules are rules.

 

[Kathor1]

For the 2023/2024 winter season, the Navarra administration had their decree about the absolute prohibition of walking the Napoleon trail to Roncesvalles during the period 1 November to 31 March even translated into French and English, see this link.

It points out that despite all the safety measures and preventive measures they had already implemented, the rescue services, both professional and voluntary, are still required to intervene in this area, as a result, on many occasions, of the exhaustion or the lack of information and physical readiness of the pilgrims. The situation is particularly serious in winter [...]

Yesterday's light snowfall did not come unexpected and more snow is going to fall on the pass of both the Napoleon route (Bentarte pass) and the Valcarlos route (Ibañeta pass) in the coming days, see:
https://www.meteoblue.com/en/weather/week/collado-de-bentarte_spain_3128263
https://www.meteoblue.com/en/weather/week/puerto-de-ibañeta_spain_3120490

The manager of the Albergue de Roncesvalles wrote on their Facebook page yesterday: First snowfall and [pilgrims] are still ignoring the recommendations and warnings. Please do not put yourselves in danger, watch the weather apps and pay attention. Don't be negligent. Be informed and prepared. The Spanish weather service had already put out a "yellow level" weather warning for yesterday (Friday)!

There is also a very recent article about the team of six agents of the Spanish Policia Nacional who are stationed in Valcarlos and have as one of their tasks to ayudar a los caminantes que desde el 1 de diciembre han superado los 300, muchos se presentan exhaustos y mal preparados - to assist Camino walkers (they've counted more than 300 pilgrim walkers since the 1st of December) where many are found to be exhausted and badly prepared. Don't be one of them.

 

[VNwalking]

to assist Camino walkers (they've counted more than 300 pilgrim walkers since the 1st of December) where many are found to be exhausted and badly prepared. Don't be one of them.

I suspect you're preaching to the choir, @Kathar1na. But it needs to be said.
And just to add by way of emphasis: Even the Valcarlos route is challenging at the best of times. I wouldn't want to be up at Ibañeta in foul weather, let alone higher up.

 

[Kathor1]

I nearly forgot one of my favourite forum / online activities : posting screenshots of the Iraty webcam that shows you what the mountain views and the ground are like right now at the level (altitude around 1000 m) of the Valcarlos / Napoleon routes.

See below for the situation around lunchtime today (6 January) and yesterday (when those two guys needed rescuing) and the day before yesterday. The small icon at the top right marks the peak of the Pic d'Orhy which, as you can see, you can't see today nor could you see it yesterday.



And the obligatory photo in a regional newspaper about snow falling on the villages of the Pyrenees in Navarra, here Burgete on Friday 5 Jan 2024 in the afternoon:

 

[Bradypus]

@Kathar1na You prompted me to have a look at the other end of the Frances - the webcam on the albergue in O Cebreiro. Looks a bit deeper there. Happened to catch sight of a family playing in the snow a few moments ago!

 

[Arctic_Alex]

(..) If you can get through there with snowshoes or hoka skis or cross-country ones or whatnot and with the proper mountain winter kit and so on, OK maybe; (...)

I know I could do it under probably most conditions with my winter gear.
But hey, why should I go through the hassle to get my bulky gear to France and then afterwards ship it from Roncesvalles back to Sweden?

That sort of mountain and winter adventure I can have where I live almost right from my doorstep ... no need for it on a Camino ;-)

 

[MichelleElynHogan]

The closure of the Napoleon route is through the end of March, not April.

Thank you for pointing out the error. The original has been corrected.

 

[Cardiohound]

Moderator note: This thread has been changed by a moderator to a new type of thread on the forum called a "Question Thread." In this type a thread a moderator can choose one post to be the "solution" to the question. We will attempt to choose the response that best answers the question. We are still working out the best way to implement this new feature.

Is the Napoleon Route from SJPP defintely closed until March? Or will it open if there is no snow? Thinking of doing a winter camino at the end of the month.

In April of last year it was closed due to snow and bad weather. I didn’t do the Napoleon route, but I knew some pilgrims who did. They said that they couldn’t see anything but clouds and fog and due to the snow they almost lost the trail. So unless you have the GPS route programmed in your phone I wouldn’t recommend it. I didn’t think it was worth the hassle.

 

[David Tallan]

In April of last year it was closed due to snow and bad weather. I didn’t do the Napoleon route, but I knew some pilgrims who did. They said that they couldn’t see anything but clouds and fog and due to the snow they almost lost the trail. So unless you have the GPS route programmed in your phone I wouldn’t recommend it. I didn’t think it was worth the hassle.

If the route is closed, I wouldn't recommend it, even if you have the GPS route programmed in your phone.