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I have the same guide book. I know that this may come as a shock to you, but some things may have changed in the 34 years since 1990 (or the 35 years since the French book upon which it is based was published). For example, if you look at the entry for O Cebreiro you will see only one inn mentioned, which no longer seems to exist, but no mention of the albergues and hotels and pensions that the village is filled with now. Things have changed.I have an old guide to the Camino Francés, “The Pilgrim Route to Compostela in Search of St James”. It is an English edition (1990) based on “Le Chemin de Saint Jacques de Compostelle” (1989).
The book says that in Ligonde “Facing No 7 is a house showing the name 'Nabal del Hospital.' I have searched Ligonde and not found a house showing that name.
The book also says that in Boente “there are some noble houses belonging to the Altamira family, with the arms bearing wolf-heads, and an old bridge.” I have searched that village and not found noble houses, arms or an old bridge.
I cannot believe that the authors (Abbe G Bernes, Georges Veron, and L Laborde Balen) made up these facts, but I have not been able to find any trace of them on the internet, either. Do you have any ideas as to where these items may be found?
To be fair coats of arms carved in stone on the outside of a house dating from at least 1520 or a Roman bridge are quite likely to have survived the extra 30-something years and still be there to be seen. There is a very non-descript square block of a building in Ligonde visible on Google Maps Streetview labelled "Hospital do Peregrinos" which might perhaps be Gitlitz's "unprepossessing" building.I enjoy the book because it reminds me of my first Camino in 1989, but I don't look to it as a source for what I am currently likely to find.
@Bert45, what an entertaining question. I am not going to be of any help, but it seems I am going to be fascinated by the answers you get from forum members much more erudite than I am.I have an old guide to the Camino Francés, “The Pilgrim Route to Compostela in Search of St James”. It is an English edition (1990) based on “Le Chemin de Saint Jacques de Compostelle” (1989).
The book says that in Ligonde “Facing No 7 is a house showing the name 'Nabal del Hospital.' I have searched Ligonde and not found a house showing that name.
The book also says that in Boente “there are some noble houses belonging to the Altamira family, with the arms bearing wolf-heads, and an old bridge.” I have searched that village and not found noble houses, arms or an old bridge.
I cannot believe that the authors (Abbe G Bernes, Georges Veron, and L Laborde Balen) made up these facts, but I have not been able to find any trace of them on the internet, either. Do you have any ideas as to where these items may be found?
Well, in this thread we are talking about the English translation of a French book with Bernés as the principal author and Véron and Laborde Balen as co-authors, and if I feel like it I might go and have a look at the 1986 French edition next week to see what it says exactly in the original versionFor some guides, "updated" apparently means they changed the date on the cover. In 2016, the Michelin Guide for that year did not mention an albergue that had been there twenty years, but it did mention a parochial in the same village that had actually not exiswted for five years.
I thought it was hardly worth mentioning that my book was based on the second (revised) edition of the original. If you wonder about the accuracy of the description of the route, check out what they say about the Dragonte route: "... after trying three tracks though (sic) scrubland, the search for the route had to be abandoned."Well, in this thread we are talking about the English translation of a French book with Bernés as the principal author and Véron and Laborde Balen as co-authors, and if I feel like it I might go and have a look at the 1986 French edition next week to see what it says exactly in the original version:
View attachment 163714
These books are guidebooks and not detailed scholarly studies based on hours and hours of original own research.I thought it was hardly worth mentioning that my book was based on the second (revised) edition of the original. If you wonder about the accuracy of the description of the route, check out what they say about the Dragonte route: "... after trying three tracks though (sic) scrubland, the search for the route had to be abandoned."
I understand this. I myself can be interested in minute details but I don't have the need to see an artefact or a site at all cost, especially when it is of such minor importance. I am more interested in historical context and what we know with certainty and why. I can live with uncertainty, or a contradiction in documentary or interpretative sources, and not knowing in more detail.If a guide book says that there is something to see, I want to see it.
This is an important point - when reading a piece of information, we need to consider the author's purpose and the context. We do the same when we listen to people talking about their experiences, or when we read news from different sources. Not all the important facts are contained in the words spoken or written! That adds a whole level of complication/interpretation, that makes things difficult for people who tend to be literal.These books are guidebooks and not detailed scholarly studies based on hours and hours of original own research.
If a guide book says that there is something to see, I want to see it. So I just want to see the house with 'Nabal del Hospital' written on it.
It is interesting that you seem to put your faith in what might be arguably the least trustworthy source of reliable information. No doubt guidebooks can be inaccurate. The effluxion of time alone will allow many changes to take place, added to any initial inaccuracies despite the best efforts of authors and publishers.The absence of information about these items on the internet almost makes me think that the author(s) must have made them up.
Well, now, if someone is searching for the same thing, they WILL come across something on the internet -this thread!I could not find one version of the narrative in my book on the internet
Thank goodness! I think I must have been made a little tone deaf lately by another conversation with someone who seems to believe in the infallibility of the mapping from one of the better known IT industry 'giants'.Dougfitz, I was being facetious when I said that I had almost begun to think that the authors had made the 'facts' up. I emphasised 'almost'. I know that the internet is unreliable. We had a long thread a while ago about the weight of charcoal put into the botafumeiro of SdC, which many internet pages averred was 40 kg or 88 lbs. I often find two contradictory versions of many items of interest on the internet. But the fact that I could not find one version of the narrative in my book on the internet was why I turned to this forum. Admittedly, the original book was published nearly 40 years ago, and many things have undoubtedly changed on the Camino Francés since then. However, it seemed unlikely to me that historic buildings, bearing ancient arms or inscriptions, having lasted for hundreds of years, would disappear without trace since the book was written.
We may have never seen the noble houses with arms bearing wolf-heads in Boente and we don't know whether there are any left or whether they collapsed and have been torn down during the past 50 years or so but one can certainly see such coat of arms elsewhere in Galicia. There is one, it seems, in Finisterre, above the main portal of the church. Below is a photo, with a helpful drawing to decipher what is depicted in stone. I wonder whether it is mentioned in the Camino guidebooksarms bearing wolf-heads
Bert, perhaps you may have heard of the Donner Party that got snowed in crossing the Sierra Nevada mountains on their trip to California in the mid 1800s. If you have heard of them then you must not know about the guide book they used full of lies that kept them from crossing the Sierras in time.I was so naive; I thought someone writing a guide book would only describe things that the writer had seen.
Nope, Rick, never heard of it. But that was a long time ago; one might hope that guide books had improved by now (or even by 1986).Bert, perhaps you may have heard of the Donner Party that got snowed in crossing the Sierra Nevada mountains on their trip to California in the mid 1800s. If you have heard of them then you must not know about the guide book they used full of lies that kept them from crossing the Sierras in time.
I do my best.Oh, this is sheer endless fun.
You can see the house numbers of many buildings (not all but nearly all) in Ligonde-Airexe and in Ligonde-Ligonde:
The first and third photos are the same, aren't they? I'm sure I must have seen those boards (both of them). Why would the people of Ligonde Ligonde set aside a field for the burial of pilgrims (and only pilgrims)? [This is nothing to do with my original question, btw.] Surely there can't have been that many pilgrims who died in Ligonde Ligonde (or a kilometre or two either side.) I suppose over a thousand years or so they might mount up, a couple every year, perhaps. But would anybody in Ligonde Ligonde think of this? "Look, guys, we've got two dead pilgrims. They could be the first of many; we're going to need to set aside that field over there to make room for them all." Since Ligonde Ligonde does not have a church, would its residents who shuffled off this mortal coil be buried in the consecrated ground of the church of Ligonde Eirexe? Why wouldn't pilgrims be buried in the same place? I don't expect any answers, unless Dr Who reads this forum.@Bert45, a wild guess: Perhaps forum member @Mark Francis Auchincloss is the same person as the Mark Auchincloss who photographed the information board in Ligonde (see first photo below and https://g.co/kgs/PnJajYy - you may have to click on the map's place marker to see the photos). The associated photos show you where in Ligonde you can find the building with this information board (produced by the local administration of Monterroso to which Ligonde belongs). The board is on the wall of the farm building that is associated with "Nabal del/do hospital". Judging by what is scribbled on the frame in Spanish and English, one can only guess that the proprietors don't want to be bothered by pilgrims.
The houses in the Ligonde-Ligonde area are numbered from 1 upwards and the houses in the Ligonde-Airexe area are also numbered from 1 upwards. Hence presumably some of the confusion.
I've added photos of two other notice boards in Ligonde. None of this is in the Airexe part of Ligonde. Did you see these boards?
Marked as site of former pilgrim hospital in Ligonde:
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(click to enlarge)
Marked as site of former pilgrim cemetery in Ligonde:
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Marked as site of former medieval accommodation in Ligonde:
View attachment 163843
Apologies, I made a mistake when I uploaded the three photos of the noticeboards. I have now corrected my mistake. The three photos in post #28 are now three different photos.The first and third photos are the same, aren't they?
That's what I thought, too, at firstThe house numbers are interesting. I wonder how the postman copes.
Wow, Katar1na! You really go the extra mile! I hope you can add 1.61 km to any number on your distance certificate (if you have one).@Bert45, let us ignore for the moment the question of why both Gitlitz/Davidson and Bernès, Vernon & Laborde Balen are inaccurate as to the details the location of a former pilgrims hospital in Ligonde.
I managed to get hold of the guidebook that Vernon & Laborde Balen published as co-authors for French-speaking pilgrims under the title Chemin de Saint-Jacques en Espagne. They thank the abbé Georges Bernès, curé de Tillac, auteur dès 1973 des premières éditions du Chemin de Saint Jacques de Compostelle en Espagne. So their book is a kind of new edition of the guidebook that your English edition is based on but Georges Bernès is no longer involved as author. It was published in the year 1999.
This is what they say (my translation from French):
LIGONDE (580 m) is currently very modest, but it is important because of its history. Let's take a look first. House #3 and, at #11, the Carneiro's (butcher's) house have preserved their medieval character, with 2 emblazoned stones. A little further on, at #17 [yes, #17 and not #7], is the home of the owners of the Nabal do Hospital farm, located on the other side of the road. As the name suggests, this was the site of an important hospital, mentioned in the 1752 land register, and they were still suing their debtors in 1811! [...] The hospital was founded after the 12th century, at an unknown date, by the Ulloa family. It is mentioned by pilgrims in itineraries of the 15th century. [...]
I am satisfied to think that this reflects the current state of knowledge about the existence and location of a pilgrim hospital with no tangible traces left today and about which we know only from a variety of historical documents. The locations of the three notice boards reflect this current state of knowledge, too.
Sometimes I can't stand some of the inaccuracies that I read on the forum but I am working on reaching a higher level of tolerance.go the extra mile!
You did not look at all the views of the property. There are no discrepancies.The property site says that the plot of land with Casa de Carneiro is #11, but the photo bears no resemblance to any view of the property on Streetview.
Huh?How can your internet be more up-to-date than my internet?
Huh?How can your internet be more up-to-date than my internet?
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