Has the Camino Frances become a victim of its own success?

Arctic_Alex · Apr 17, 2023

Bradypus said:
Don Elias Valina didn't refer to the route as the Camino Frances either. He called it the Camino de Santiago. But nowadays there are many routes to choose from and most of them end in Santiago so I suppose we have to have some way of making it clear which one we are talking about!

malingerer said:
I have been unable to find an entry point for this discussion. Why? Because when I started in 2003 I was walking the Camino de Santiago. That wretched appellation Camino Frances came later. I still walk even in my mind, The Camino de Santiago .

Samarkand.

Well, strictly speaking every path leading to Santiago is a Camino de Santiago.
But it is useful to differentiate between different routes when you want to speak about the practical implications (as opposed to the spiritual ones). And then you need names. People prefer names over numbers or other codes.

Kathor1 · Apr 17, 2023

I was wondering how long ago it is that the name “Camino Frances” has been known to the international community. At least since 1989, apparently, because that’s when it is mentioned in a New York Times article published on 1 October 1989. But that was not the most interesting part of the article. There is more:

… Hostal de los Reyes Catolicos, built by Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand at the turn of the 16th century to house and nurse the pilgrims who were pouring into the city. Forgetting for a moment Isabella's terrible legacy of the Inquisition, her hotel/hospital is a tranquil and glorious monument to religious belief. […] Since 1954, the Hostal has been run as part of the Spanish national chain of paradors. Yet it is still a charitable foundation: each day, up to 10 certified pilgrims can claim three free meals a day for up to three days. These contemporary pilgrims eat with the staff, the manager explains.

It is perfectly possible to visit Santiago and see it only as another splendid European city. […] The stone-paved streets have a multitude of cafes and bars that, in term time, are thronged with some of the 47,000 students who fill the thriving University of Santiago. Yet among the tourists you will spot the pilgrims: one morning two white-haired men with backpacks entered through Mateo's Door of Glory and pressed their fingers into the holes made in the stone by their forerunners over eight centuries.

Inside the offices of the cathedral sits a representative of the secretariat whose one job is to certify the true pilgrims, those who have walked, bicycled or ridden (on horseback) over at least 50 kilometers (about 30 miles) to get to Santiago. They bring a card stamped in the town halls along the route and sign in at a registry. Under the heading ''motives for pilgrimage,'' someone has written ''une promesse'' and someone else ''100 percent por Dios'' and a third ''religieux et sportifs.'' A very ''sportif'' Frenchman bounds in while I am there; he has bicycled from the Rue St. Jacques in Paris, the traditional start of the route, to Santiago in 10 days. The secretary tells me that the number of pilgrims has more than doubled in the past 10 years.

Santiago's Golden Legend (Published 1989)

www.nytimes.com

Bradypus · Apr 17, 2023

Kathar1na said:
Yet it is still a charitable foundation: each day, up to 10 certified pilgrims can claim three free meals a day for up to three days. These contemporary pilgrims eat with the staff, the manager explains.

The free meals for three days were still on offer in summer 1990. Served in the staff dining room but on the one occasion I claimed a meal there I ate alone - no other pilgrims or staff. It was such a gloomy experience I didn't come back for more!

Kathar1na said:
Inside the offices of the cathedral sits a representative of the secretariat whose one job is to certify the true pilgrims, those who have walked, bicycled or ridden (on horseback) over at least 50 kilometers (about 30 miles) to get to Santiago.

No separate pilgrim office at the time. Numbers were too small to need one. Though my guide from the CSJ said that in peak periods a temporary office might sometimes be set up in the square outside. In my case the person I spoke with was one of the priests on the cathedral staff.

Kathar1na said:
Yet among the tourists you will spot the pilgrims: one morning two white-haired men with backpacks entered through Mateo's Door of Glory and pressed their fingers into the holes made in the stone by their forerunners over eight centuries.

That is one of the changes over the years which I dislike most. You used to end your Camino journey by walking up the steps from the Obradoiro and pass through the Portico and see down the length of the nave to the high altar. With your rucksack still on your back. Having to find a safe place to store your pack first and then pass by security on a side door just doesn't feel the same!

Kathor1 · Apr 17, 2023

It was the mentioning of the 50 km that surprised me the most. And “Yet among the tourists you will spot the pilgrims” amused me. And no multiple-choice options yet for motives but free text.

Arctic_Alex · Apr 17, 2023

Kathar1na said:
[...] And “Yet among the tourists you will spot the pilgrims” amused me.

Indeed!

Bradypus · Apr 17, 2023

Kathar1na said:
It was the mentioning of the 50 km that surprised me the most. And “Yet among the tourists you will spot the pilgrims” amused me.

No one mentioned any 50km rule to me and it wasn't in my guidebooks either. You would have to look quite hard to spot the pilgrims back then. There was a major international Catholic youth gathering and a papal visit to Santiago de Compostela in 1989. And the Compostela total for that year was under 6,000. A number that the pilgrim office managed to beat in just three days recently.

malingerer · Apr 17, 2023

Bradypus said:
Don Elias Valina didn't refer to the route as the Camino Frances either. He called it the Camino de Santiago. But nowadays there are many routes to choose from and most of them end in Santiago so I suppose we have to have some way of making it clear which one we are talking about!

A cursory look at a map shows S.W FRANCE as Pays Basque and over the current border it is shown as Pais Basco. Shouldn't we show some respect to these proud and independent people who consider themselves neither French or Spanish ? Perhaps the Basque route might raise a few hackles amongst authority ?

Samarkand.

Pilgrim9 · Apr 17, 2023

This will probably be of interest only to linguistic purists.

Does "Camino de Santiago" correctly translate to "The Way of Saint James (the historical Saintly person)" or "The Way of (to) Santiago-de-Compostela (the city)"?

If the former, then could all paths pertaining to Saint James (the historical Saintly person), regardless of start and end points, even those not situated in Spain, justifiably be called a "Camino de Santiago"? Thus, "Camino de Santiago de Francia" / "Camino de Santiago de Madrid" / "Camino de Santiago de Portugal", etc.

If the latter, might it be more appropriately named "Camino a Santiago", or, for greater clarity, "Camino de Francia a Santiago" / "Camino de Madrid a Santiago" / "Camino de Portugal a Santiago", etc.

I don't know the answer to my question, just interested in getting it right in my mind. (I was for decades a quality systems analyst and my experiences in that line of work lead me to develop a deep-seated suspicion and dislike of ambiguities in documentation - they were a root cause of many problems.)

Arctic_Alex · Apr 17, 2023

malingerer said:
A cursory look at a map shows S.W FRANCE as Pays Basque and over the current border it is shown as Pais Basco. Shouldn't we show some respect to these proud and independent people who consider themselves neither French or Spanish ? Perhaps the Basque route might raise a few hackles amongst authority ?

Samarkand.

I remember having my first Camino beer with a fellow pilgrim in a pub in SJPDP where everyone else was a local. We became very popular when we said that it was so different from what we knew as France. And they argued that apparently we were not in France so we were absolutely right. This developed into a jolly night with the locals

Kathor1 · Apr 17, 2023

Pilgrim9 said:
Does "Camino de Santiago" correctly translate to "The Way of Saint James (the historical Saintly person)" or "The Way of (to) Santiago-de-Compostela (the city)"?

@Pilgrim9, you said so already, you are obviously not a translator . To “correctly” translate something you need to know what this something is called in the target language. For example, in German it is called Jakobsweg (a clear reference to the saint’s name) and it is the same in Dutch with Jacobsweg; in French, it is chemin de Compostelle and chemin de Saint Jacques where the name of the saint is Saint Jacques and the name of the town is Saint-Jacques-de-Compostelle. In Italian, both Cammino di San Giacomo (saint ) and Cammino di Santiago (town) are used. In English it used to be Way of Saint James but for some reason the terms Camino and Camino de Santiago have become more popular. Wikipedia has articles in some 65+ languages about the names that are used for this road in these languages.

Finally, medieval pilgrims did not use any of these names, they said that they were going to Saint James in Galicia.

Does this answer your question?

Pilgrim9 · Apr 17, 2023

Kathar1na said:
@Pilgrim9, [Reponse paraphrased as: it refers to Saint James, not the city] Does this answer your question?

Yes, thank you. Now I know.

WalkingJane · May 1, 2023

Pilgrim9 said:
An alternative to the sometimes-crowded CF and to the reportedly-costly Norte?

In summer of 2022, post-CF, I rode the narrow-gauge train from Ferrol to Bilbao (except for a short temporarily-closed section).

The inland route through the mountains was eye-poppingly attractive.

I observed, more-or-less paralleling the tracks, many prepared footpaths, some of which appeared to be parts of long-distance hiking routes. I did see people with backpacks walking along these paths, plus of course many folks who looked more like locals out for a walk.

There are many small attractive towns along the route of the railway and the aforementioned footpaths: indeed, the need to connect the towns almost certainly stimulated development of the railway.

Might it be possible to link together these disjoint segments of inland footpaths plus local roads into a coherent east-to-west foot-pilgrimage route running south of the Norte and north of the CF, from Bilbao to Ferrol or similar? The east-to-west routing would be conceptually consistent with historical pilgrimage flow patterns.

Such a new route could satisfy foot-pilgrims' hunger for less-crowded routings, and provide a new source of revenue for en-route lodging places and eateries. And keeping it within reasonable walking distance to the railway, where possible, would provide pilgrims with a ready-made "Plan B".

I took the local train several times and enjoyed that kind of contact with local people. Way better than taxi when my 80+ body needed a bit of rest.

Former member 104756 · May 1, 2023

Kathar1na said:
in French, it is chemin de Compostelle and chemin de Saint Jacques

Thanks @Kathar1na Just as an aside, the vast majority (I could possibly say all?) of French pilgrims I've met over the years - on various caminos - use one of these two references to describe their pilgrimage. The route by which they walk is a secondary reference - in my experience.

Bellbutt · May 1, 2023

C clearly said:
Of course the Camino has changed, and many of those changes are not to my liking. The Camino Frances, at least at certain times and segments, seems too "canned" (packaged) and too social for me. Theme parks are great fun, but in small doses! We can lament the changes, but why should we get to decide that things should be preserved at the point that we think was perfect, and restrict access for others. Life doesn't work that way.

Certainly there are logistical and ecological considerations that can be improved, and I hope they are.

Is it possible that the above two statements illustrate a conundrum? Like many of us, you want adventurousness and empty spaces but you want security and shorter distances between lodgings. I don't know what you mean by "big distances" but I am in my mid-70s and have feet that complain, but I am able to work out plans for other routes, so that I typically don't walk over 25 km, and I always have a Plan B for the few stages that require 30 km. It definitely takes more preparation/planning and a willingness to adjust while on the ground, since the details are not handed out on silver platters. Sometimes I find myself outside my comfort zone, but that is where the adventure lies. Each year, when I head to Spain, I ask myself why I am not satisfied with more conventional vacations.

It wouldn't be adventurous to do the same thing over and over. So, if you are seeking more adventure, challenge, or empty spaces, you will have to go after it.

I walked the CF last year-my first Camino. I didn't have trouble with crowds, in fact I enjoyed the company.
made a friend that I completed the Camino with. The whole experience was magical. So I have no basis of comparison to years past. Leaving in ten days for the Portuguese Camino so will have a small basis of comparison soon.

ouroboros · May 3, 2023

David C. said:
If I do the Frances again, I will probably stop in Sarria. It just becomes too crowded from there.
If you manage to avoid holy years and the busiest months (i.e. walk in the beginning or end of the season), there should be fewer people. I really recommend trying some of the other routes (e.g. Norte, or VLDP) and resort to busses or trains if you can't make the day's distance.

I had to stop my 2019 solo Camino at Sarria for the reason you cited: too crowded with fresh pilgrims making the last 100 kms, partying in their high-heeled sneakers. No judgement, just the way it is. I decided to forgo the Compostela the third time, and to respect my internal desire for rentry from pilgrimage in a quiet mode. Being solo for that whole month walking, I had gone into a deeply silent place within and found the crowds jarring. I also was suffering from a wounded hip tendon and so the poor body was giving out. It’s always a wonderful experience, nontheless.

BoulderGT3 · May 15, 2023

I just finished walking from Triacastela to SDC on Friday. It was the second time on the Frances for me. The irony that the people that complain about the crowds are all frequent flyers is inescapable. I don't think I met anyone that was doing it for the first time. Many >5 times. Plenty of beds and rooms available. I only had issues in SDC with getting a room and had to take the 6:20AM train to Madrid as it was the only one available. Madrid was very crowded. Maybe 30% more than this time last year.

Waka · Monday at 6:01 PM

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JustJack · Wednesday at 11:03 PM

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Gelariv · Friday at 10:14 PM

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MamaBear · Monday at 4:33 AM

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vikkid · Friday at 3:09 PM

Hi. I've been reading posts for a couple months now, and the info here is excellent. I recently read that the French camino is the busiest and especially in May. What is "busy"? My husband and I...

Has the Camino Frances become a victim of its own success?

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