Detailed Planning for Viejo/Olvidado from Pamplona

[peregrina2000]

I'm trying to avoid going down those rabbit holes of Camino planning...

This is no rabbit hole, this is an elephant crater.

 

[VNwalking]

his is no rabbit hole, this is an elephant crater.

Haha, yeah no kidding.
I had no idea about elephant craters before I fell into this one.

 

[caminka]

And no albergue in QMG? That decides it. I'm definitely taking the South bank of the Ebro, and Dolmens be darned.

no, no, there IS albergue just south of QMG. here's the link. I was suprised to see an albergue in banos de sobron.

 

[caminka]

I'm not sure what you mean?

Patrimonio Natural de Castilla y León | Parque Natural | Parque natural Montes Obarenes-San Zadornil

patrimonionatural.org

I mean that blue square.

 

[caminka]

The GR85 route is about 20 km, involving a climb of 325m, and a similar descent:

Sendero GR85 etapa 5: Frías - Trespaderne

Consulta la cuarta etapa Si en la anterior jornada andamos por la parte más llana del valle de Tobalina, ahora tendremos un contacto c...

tierrasdeburgos.blogspot.com

@caminka's route, following the GR99 is shorter and gentler, only 12km and looks mostly flat.

yes, but it does pass through tobera, if you have not already saw it on the way from pancorbo and ona.
I did climb out of frias but it was not very high. gorgeous view of the town from the top, though.

 

[caminka]

There is a Hostal and a campsite with cabins in Trespaderne. If you want to keep walking you would have to go all the way to Quintana de Valdevielso, another 27kms, to find a place to sleep. Alternatively you could go off-piste to Oña (if you didn't come to Frias that way), 14 kms farther on. From Oña to Quintana de Valdevielso is about 24 kms. It is a trade off, though - the next day, if walked on the Viejo proper, takes you past some real jewels, which you would miss.

the taste of some of those jewels and my wikiloc. I mixed GR99 and GR85 to get the most of them on the most optimal route.

 

[caminka]

and one of the most amazing little romanesque churches I have ever come across, san pedro de tejada.

 

[caminka]

Well, as someone who is likely to be pushing against a time crunch, I wonder if there is any way to extend this day’s walk, either using the short route or the longer route.

And Vira, when you mentioned the “Viejo proper”, does that mean that there are two essentially parallel routes, one the GR99 Ruta del Ebro and the other the Viejo?

viejo camino in this thread is the camino that in this section follows the GR99.
but, for the sake of the argument, I would propose another (or perhaps the original?) viejo camino based on the route of the abbot gundisalvo I mentioned above. it runs more to the south of GR99 because of course this was not the most accessible valley in those times. I need to get my hands on gundisalvo's itinerary first, to be any more precise then a very general course.

 

[caminka]

Alternative way: Yew Trees
Nearby but not on the camino there is a protected stand of ancient yews – 64 numbered and well-studied trees that are about 1000 years old. Here is an account of a loop track that takes in part of the camino as well as the trees:
http://tierrasdeburgos.blogspot.com/2011/09/ruta-de-senderismo-los-tejos-de.html

The track passes through Hoz de Valdivielso, so if you are super interested in seeing them, it would be easy to walk to the Valdivielso that way instead of using @caminka ’s track.

oh, oh! I love old trees!

 

[VNwalking]

and one of the most amazing little romanesque churches I have ever cme across, san pedro de tejada.

This church is famous, it looks like for very good reason.


What is not clear is whether it is ever open.

My general sense, and please correct me if this impression is wrong, @caminka , is that the day from Trespaderne to QdV is a special one. I would be tempted to go from Frias to Trespaderne via Tobera/Oña (the first map in my last post), and then to QdV the next day, following your track - thus getting the best of both worlds.
What do you think?

 

[VNwalking]

oh, oh! I love old trees!

Me too!! Check out that website, it blew me away; there is a little video and the trees are start at about 3:30 into it. Going that way means missing the rock hermitage and the waterfall, but these are really serious trees, rare and special ones, and there are a number of them..

 

[peregrina2000]

I can’t contribute much to the choice of route, but I can hunt around for opening times!

The official web site of León y Castilla Turismo says it’s private property. Not sure how in the world that could have happened! It does, however, list phone numbers 947 303 200 or 652 641 079 to arrange a visit. Suggests that we might be able to get in with a call a few days ahead.

Most websites show few if any photos of the interior, but it does look very pretty. One blog said the guide prohibits pics inside, so that might explain it! Arteguías comments on svelte, high arches and shows a picture. If you haven’t seen this website, it is pretty comprehensive. Links to about 35 monasteries in the province of Burgos alone, and a page for every province in Spain. YIKES!

 

[VNwalking]

Great sleuthing, Laurie, thank you!
Those websites...no, I hadn't seen them.
Holey moley! Amazing.

The official web site of León y Castilla Turismo says it’s private property.

That's just weird. But good that it might be possible to go inside.

 

[Theatregal]

Just popping in to say...the richness of information, inspiration and temptation in this amazing thread is astonishing. Gosh... incredible work...thank you thank you thank you.

 

[VNwalking]

Thank you, @Theatregal, but truely I'm standing on the shoulders of giants.
Here is something that @caminka posted about names in another thread in 2018, and it is worth a reprise here (especially the part that I put in bold):

I am rooting for the route pamplona - salvatierra/aguirain (at least) to be named camino viejo - based on roman and medieval finds and the travel journey by abbot gundisalvo in 902. it would be exciting if this could be extended to aguilar along the abbot gundisalvo's route (Salvatierra, Alegría, Armentía, Trespuentes, Puentelarra, Tobalina, Frías, Oña, Sedano, Amaya, Nogales, Mave, Aguilar) which is different then GR 99 ruta del ebro, but then there would be two options!

attached is a quick sketch of how I see the connections.

 

[VNwalking]

the travel journey by abbot gundisalvo in 902. it would be exciting if this could be extended to aguilar along the abbot gundisalvo's route (Salvatierra, Alegría, Armentía, Trespuentes, Puentelarra, Tobalina, Frías, Oña, Sedano, Amaya, Nogales, Mave, Aguilar) which is different then GR 99

OsmAnd makes that simple to plot, at least in terms of the basic route, which could be easily tweaked.
Here you go:

 

[caminka]

This church is famous, it looks like for very good reason.
View attachment 75695

What is not clear is whether it is ever open.

My general sense, and please correct me if this impression is wrong, @caminka , is that the day from Trespaderne to QdV is a special one. I would be tempted to go from Frias to Trespaderne via Tobera/Oña (the first map in my last post), and then to QdV the next day, following your track - thus getting the best of both worlds.
What do you think?

in 2012 the church was open in the morning and in the afternoon. the lady that attended to the key was later at the albergue arte y natura in quintana de valdivielso. she was very nice. I arrived at the church with about 15min to spare (till 12h, probably) but she let me run around ohing and ahing and taking photos till I was satisfied. there was a small admission fee, I think.

your impression is correct, @VNwalking. these two days would be very splendid indeed. in fact, with all the awesome detours/alternatives popping up here, I might be considering walking it again! (not that I wouldn't, it's just that I have this wish list of caminos...)

 

[caminka]

Me too!! Check out that website, it blew me away; there is a little video and the trees are start at about 3:30 into it. Going that way means missing the rock hermitage and the waterfall, but these are really serious trees, rare and special ones, and there are a number of them..

I admit it would be an easy decision for me, having already seen the rock hermitage and the romanesque church and the gorge with the waterfall.
what I would perhaps consider is peeking into one of the incredibly narrow clefts in the ridge to the north-east of GR 99/85. check this wikiloc track, for example. ooo....

 

[caminka]

Most websites show few if any photos of the interior, but it does look very pretty.

that's because they don't let the photos being taken inside. I did go inside but couldn't sneak even one photo.

 

[caminka]

Thank you, @Theatregal, but truely I'm standing on the shoulders of giants.
Here is something that @caminka posted about names in another thread in 2018, and it is worth a reprise here (especially the part that I put in bold):

omg, you found this! that's what I was referring to in one of the above posts.

 

[caminka]

OsmAnd makes that simple to plot, at least in terms of the basic route, which could be easily tweaked.
Here you go:
View attachment 75773
View attachment 75774
View attachment 75776

it is definitely a start and then the fun of exploring begins.

 

[VNwalking]

I so appreciate your input, caminka - there aren't so many people who have gone this way!

it is definitely a start and then the fun of exploring begins.

Go, @caminka, go!

 

[VNwalking]

And...ahem...
San Pedro de Tejada has some 'unusual' sculptural elements.
It turns out this is not unusual. Who knew?

Deciphering the sex scenes in Spain’s medieval churches

Experts meet to discuss the meaning of highly explicit sculptures made 1,000 years ago

english.elpais.com

 

[peregrina2000]

And...ahem...
San Pedro de Tejada has some 'unusual' sculptural elements.
It turns out this is not unusual. Who knew?

Deciphering the sex scenes in Spain’s medieval churches

Experts meet to discuss the meaning of highly explicit sculptures made 1,000 years ago

english.elpais.com

Not to derail this thread or send it into the gutter, but San Pedro de Cervatos on the Olvidado is full of them! I couldn’t bring myself to take any pictures, though.

But I see the article you link to mentions it as the premier repository of sexual images in romanesque!

 

[peregrina2000]

Ender just posted this link, and the term Merindades sounded familiar.

So here are some natural wonders to incorporate into your (hopefully our) little meander.

12 Rutas por Las Merindades de Burgos - Yendo por la vida

12 Rutas por Las Merindades de Burgos, descubriendo los pueblos y los paisajes de esta zona del norte de Burgos, que esconde bellos rincones naturales

yendoporlavida.com

 

[VNwalking]

Day 12, Quintana de Valdevileso – Pesqueria del Ebro 27.96 km
After meandering across the Valdivielso, it's time to move on.
Today we part company with the Ebro to go up and over the alto, but then re-meeting the rio higher up. So it's a day of a going up about 500 m and then at the end back down four-fifths of that. Why the route doesn't just follow the river is a question that is nagging at me but what we see going the other way is worth it.

Soon after leaving QdV, we come to San Nicolás de El Almiñé, which is definitely worth exploring.
This unusual window is from there:


And inside, there is this fine retablo:


This is an area with old pilgrimage roots. From the website about Las Merindadades:

“Until [recently], the road that led from the Merindades to the capital of Burgos passed through El Almiñé. In this town the ascent of La Cuesta began, an impressive mountain pass that culminated, some 1,000 meters above sea level, in the hermitage of Nuestra Señora de la Hoz. The construction of the current [road through] the Puerto de la Mazorra diverted traffic and hermitage and town lost significance. El Almiñé is the paradigm of what some authors consider to be a village-road since, in fact, its urban structure follows, broadly speaking, the linearity of the Burgos road. [...] Travelers, some of them pilgrims, left the Burgos Mountains most likely for this magnificent place. Today, in El Almiñé there is no more bustle. The abandonment of the road plunged the town into oblivion.”

The old calzada is our route onwards, and it's spectacularly well preserved.
Were you coming from the North (of you’d detoured to Poza de la Sal as @Sheffield James did, you could descend into QdV on this road. The rest of us walk up it early in the day, much easier than going down on that surface!


The old road climbs steeply and then levels off at Santa Isabel o de la Hoz,


Here, the camino turns right crossing the Alto de la Mazorra towards Pesqueria del Ebro.
From the mirador on the CL-629, the view down to the Valdevielso looking back the way we came from yesterday is not too shabby at all:


The Dolmen de la Cotorrita is a little to the North of the camino before the village of Porquera del Butrón, well worth the short detour. This dolmen is roughly 5,500 years old and was excavated and restored in 1969. It has an east-west orientation, and at least 15 people were buried there.

Dolmen de la Cotorrita

La “cotorrita” es uno de los “cinco grandes” dólmenes de la comarca de Las Loras. En realidad, hay muchos más, pero estos son los que han s...

tierrasdeburgos.blogspot.com

This wesite mentions the church at Porquera de Butron as having been 'restored;' it is certainly not of the caliber of others we have seen down in the valleys. Up here on the mesa, life is harsher than in the valley, and the village church in Cubillo de Butron has obviously fallen on hard times.

From here the camino zig-zags back down to the Ebro.
Right at the old bridge over the river in Pesquera de Ebro is the Ermita de San Antonio; here we cross the bridge and enter the village.

The first document that talks about Pesquera de Ebro is dated to 941. As the town's name implies, it emerged as a fishing place and developed on the edge of the strategic bridge over the Ebro.
The town, with emblazoned houses and old palaces, is considered a Historic Site. It's is one of the towns with the highest density of noble shields in all of Spain. Most are from the 17th and 18th centuries, a time when a large part of their inhabitants were nobility. But now it is a humble place with only a handful of residents.
There are at least two CRs to stay, one right by the river.

So here are some natural wonders to incorporate into your (hopefully our) little meander.

'Our' sounds very good to me, Laurie! may it be so!
And wow, thank you. Waterfalls, look at them all!
I'll have a look in the morning in more detail. It's too late to dive into that rabbit hole...

 

[VNwalking]

I'm sorry this is out of sequence, but I have this to add after looking at the link you got from Ender, @peregrina2000 .

Day 11 Add-on - side trip from Quintana de Valsivielso
Once you arrive in QdV and are settled in your accommodation, if you want an evening stroll there is a very short 1.1 km side trip worth taking to Iglesia de San Miguel and the Torrede los Velasco, along the Ebro near Valdenoceda, just North of QdV. Alternatively, it is possible to stay quite closeby in a CR in Valdenoceda.

https://www.lasmerindades.com/en/node/19497

There is hidden history from the 1930s here in Valdenoceda; if you are interested to know the links, please send me a PM.

Also nearby is the walk up the Ebro on the GR99 described here:
https://yendoporlavida.com/2018/11/30/ruta-del-desfiladero-de-los-hocinos-merindades/

Ahead are days of the Ebro Gorge, so while beautiful, this is definitely somewhere extra to go if you arrive at QdV with itchy feet.

 

[caminka]

And...ahem...
San Pedro de Tejada has some 'unusual' sculptural elements.
It turns out this is not unusual. Who knew?

Deciphering the sex scenes in Spain’s medieval churches

Experts meet to discuss the meaning of highly explicit sculptures made 1,000 years ago

english.elpais.com

I thought that it was a neat way of educating poor illiterate peasants about the mysteries of gender.
I love corbels. I think they are one of the very few insights into the mind of common people of the middle ages left.

 

[VNwalking]

I love corbels. I think they are one of the very few insigts into the mind of common people of the middle ages left.

Me too. I often wished on the Inierno that I had a better zoom lens, because there was a veritable bestiary on some of the churches.

 

[caminka]

Me too. I often wished on the Inierno that I had a better zoom lens, because there was a veritable bestiary on some of the churches.

ditto!

 

[caminka]

Day 12, Quintana de Valdevileso – Pesqueria del Ebro 27.96 km
After meandering across the Valdivielso, it's time to move on.
Today we part company with the Ebro to go up and over the alto, but then re-meeting the rio higher up. So it's a day of a going up about 500 m and then at the end back down four-fifths of that. Why the route doesn't just follow the river is a question that is nagging at me but what we see going the other way is worth it.

Soon after leaving QdV, we come to San Nicolás de El Almiñé, which is definitely worth exploring.
This unusual window is from there:
View attachment 75849

And inside, there is this fine retablo:
View attachment 75850

This is an area with old pilgrimage roots. From the website about Las Merindadades:


The old calzada is our route onwards, and it's spectacularly well preserved.
Were you coming from the North (of you’d detoured to Poza de la Sal as @Sheffield James did, you could descend into QdV on this road. The rest of us walk up it early in the day, much easier than going down on that surface!
View attachment 75851 View attachment 75852

The old road climbs steeply and then levels off at Santa Isabel o de la Hoz,
View attachment 75853

Here, the camino turns right crossing the Alto de la Mazorra towards Pesqueria del Ebro.
From the mirador on the CL-629, the view down to the Valdevielso looking back the way we came from yesterday is not too shabby at all:
View attachment 75854

The Dolmen de la Cotorrita is a little to the North of the camino before the village of Porquera del Butrón, well worth the short detour. This dolmen is roughly 5,500 years old and was excavated and restored in 1969. It has an east-west orientation, and at least 15 people were buried there.
View attachment 75855

Dolmen de la Cotorrita

La “cotorrita” es uno de los “cinco grandes” dólmenes de la comarca de Las Loras. En realidad, hay muchos más, pero estos son los que han s...

tierrasdeburgos.blogspot.com

This wesite mentions the church at Porquera de Butron as having been 'restored;' it is certainly not of the caliber of others we have seen down in the valleys. Up here on the mesa, life is harsher than in the valley, and the village church in Cubillo de Butron has obviously fallen on hard times.

From here the camino zig-zags back down to the Ebro.
Right at the old bridge over the river in Pesquera de Ebro is the Ermita de San Antonio; here we cross the bridge and enter the village.
View attachment 75857
The first document that talks about Pesquera de Ebro is dated to 941. As the town's name implies, it emerged as a fishing place and developed on the edge of the strategic bridge over the Ebro.
The town, with emblazoned houses and old palaces, is considered a Historic Site. It's is one of the towns with the highest density of noble shields in all of Spain. Most are from the 17th and 18th centuries, a time when a large part of their inhabitants were nobility. But now it is a humble place with only a handful of residents.
There are at least two CRs to stay, one right by the river.

'Our' sounds very good to me, Laurie! may it be so!
And wow, thank you. Waterfalls, look at them all!
I'll have a look in the morning in more detail. It's too late to dive into that rabbit hole...

now there is also accommodation in cortiguera, casa rural talamo. cortiguera was during my next day stage because in 2012 it was a village of ruined houses and one or two weekend houses. but it would be nice to stay there because the nearby evening views of the canon del ebro must be amazing.

 

[VNwalking]

Day 13. Pesqueria del Ebro – Orbaneja del Castillo 25.8km
Today is about the Cañon de Ebro!


There are two possibilities today:
@caminka’s track:
https://www.wikiloc.com/hiking-trai...quera-del-ebro-orbaneja-del-castillo-21433123
Or a shorter flatter version that goes straight up the river, rather than going up and down and doubling back:
https://www.wikiloc.com/hiking-trails/pesquera-de-ebro-orbaneja-23406726

Either offers an amazing day in the Ebro gorge.
If you choose to follow @caminka’s track, the day zig-zags up the Ebro going from one side of the river to the other 3 times. The first third of the day involves a gradual climb of 405m, followed by a sharp descent of 356m. Other than that the camino follows a barely uphill grade, flat but just uphill enough to be following a running river.

The main attraction today is the gorge itself.
Following @caminka’s track, we get a good view of it from Cortiduera the first village we encounter after climbing up the hill above the river. This is a town that was once much more vital and populated than it is now, judging by the crests over hoses doors, and the church is slowly crumbling.

Because of the view, it would be a lovely place to spend the night.

now there is also accommodation in cortiguera, casa rural talamo. cortiguera was during my next day stage because in 2012 it was a village of ruined houses and one or two weekend houses. but it would be nice to stay there because the nearby evening views of the canon del ebro must be amazing.

From here the track zig-zags down to Valdelateja. Once there, if you are keen for a break, there may be a spa about 500m off the camino across the river at Balneario de Valdelateja. I say ‘may’ because it was reported closed in 2009, but there looks to be an active website in 2020.
https://hotel-balneario-de-valdelateja.vivehotels.com/en/

At this point, the camino goes first down the Ebro on the right bank, crossing and then going back up the river on the left bank, passing the Ermita de Ebro, crossing back to the right bank near Quintanilla-Escalada with its Iglesia San Miguel.

Around one more sharp Oxbow and we arrive at beautiful Orbaneja del Castillo. It’s been a day of stunning beauty, ending with a bang at this ‘Most Beautiful Village in Burgos.”


Orbaneja del Castillo
Orbaneja del Castillo is certainly astonishing. The waterfalls and the way the village is oriented with views down the river reminds me of villages in far off Ladakh, in a part of India that was once called “Western Tibet.” The village is nestled on the north side of the oxbow, an amazing sight: a village that climbs up the hillside, with its terracotta roofs, cobbled streets and wooden balconies. A magnificent waterfall splits the village into two halves, and ragged cliffs tower above it all. There are caves above the waterfall, and across the river are the ruins of the castle that gave the town its name. Hundreds of vultures nest in the cliffs.

 

[peregrina2000]

Another jaw-dropper, wow, VN.

To keep me geographically anchored, can you tell me about where this stage is in relationship to the camino de las Asturias stages? I am assuming this route is roughly tracking that one, but I may be wrong.

Camino de las Asturias - Etapas

 

[VNwalking]

Yeah, it's almost parallel, but farther south from the look of it.

 

[caminka]

to get to that gorgeous view of the most famous ebro meander, an old route hewn partly into the cliff rises from orbaneja eastward. it's about 15-20min to the top of the plateau but the view is before that. not to be missed.

 

[VNwalking]

That is so gorgeous! You can see the whole thing in one sweep of the eye— the river, the village, the gorge... Amazing.

@caminka, what do you know about cave paintings in a cave behind the village? One website I found mentioned that, but I could not find any other information to corroborate it.

 

[caminka]

@caminka, what do you know about cave paintings in a cave behind the village? One website I found mentioned that, but I could not find any other information to corroborate it.

I dont' know about cave paintings. I do remember a guy charging money for a cave behind the village. I climbed above the cave to an overhang - mirador de la cueva del agua on google maps. very nice view of the castillo rocks across the canyon.

 

[VNwalking]

I can't find much more about cave paintings, other than a few asides in larger websites. If there were any of significance, I am guessing that we would know about it!
But this is a fascinating place, and if you want a rest day to wander around this would not be a bad choice:

Qué ver en Orbaneja del Castillo | Un paseo por Orbaneja

Qué ver en Orbaneja del Castillo - Burgos. Conjunto Histórico Artístico. Viajamos hasta el Valle de Sedano para visitar la preciosa villa de Orbaneja del Castil

www.terranostrum.es

And while we are poking around in Orbanejo de Castillo, it is worth noting that some of the area the camino traverses here and much of the area to the south is included in a UNESCO-recognized Geopark – these are areas recognized for their unique significance as places where the geological history of the planet is exposed for all to see and study.

Home

http://geoparquelasloras.es/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/slide2.jpg http://geoparquelasloras.es/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/slide1.jpg http://geoparquelasloras.es/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/slider3.jpg http://geoparquelasloras.es/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/slide4.jpg...

geoparquelasloras.es

It's also full of places of cultural interest and the website conveniently has a comprehensive list:

Lugares de interés cultural

Zona burgalesa del geoparque: Localidad Descripción Humada Yacimento arqueológico (Calcolítico-Hierro). Castro y muralla. Rebolledo de la Torre Castillo medieval Rebolledo de la Torre Iglesia románica porticada Sargentes de la Lora Sepulcro megalítico de corredor restaurado...

geoparquelasloras.es

Edit - in that last page is a list of "Bienes culturales intangibles" including this!:
"Camino Viejo de Santiago: trazado del camino de peregrinación primitivo (siglos VIII al XI)"
There you go. We have the right name!


And from a general brochure about UNESCO-recognized Geoparks in Spain:

Las Loras Geopark, in Burgos and Palencia (Castilla y León)
A rugged terrain with imposing ravines and rocky outcrops, where you can find more Romanesque churches, convents and monasteries per kilometre than anywhere in Europe. These are the distinguishing features of Las Loras Geopark, which offers plenty of routes to explore on foot, by car or mountain biking. Some of the most spectacular landscapes are the gorges of the rivers Ebro and Rudrón (in Burgos) and Las Tuerces (in Palencia), close to the interesting Cave of Los Franceses and the recommended Mirador de Valcabado viewing point. Throughout most of the park you’ll also find pre-Roman castros, Neolithic dolmens, and Iron Age sites like the castros of Monte Bernorio, Peña Amaya, Peña Ulaña and Monte Cildá. Many of the park’s waterfalls are easy to access, such as those of Orbaneja del Castillo (Burgos) and Covalagua (Palencia). The area is ideal for adventure sports like rock climbing or canyoning.

Here is a stunning photo from one of those sites, of Peña Amaya with a gorgeous church in the foreground:


Amaya was the old capital of the Cantabrian people until its fall at the hands of the Visigoths, and in Medieval times it was an important stop on the way to Santiago. It is well south of here, but along the alternative (historical) route to Aguilar that @caminka was talking about:

it would be exciting if this could be extended to aguilar along the abbot gundisalvo's route (Salvatierra, Alegría, Armentía, Trespuentes, Puentelarra, Tobalina, Frías, Oña, Sedano, Amaya, Nogales, Mave, Aguilar) which is different then GR 99 ruta del ebro, but then there would be two options!

OsmAnd makes that simple to plot, at least in terms of the basic route, which could be easily tweaked.
Here you go:

 

[VNwalking]

Day 14. Orbaneja del Castillo – Polientes 18.5km (or 26.25 with side trip to Ermita) 17.8 or 26.02
Between OdC and Aguilar de Campoo, we mostly follow the Ebro and dip in and out of Cantabria, which has a zig-zag boundary with Castilla y Leon.

There are a number of worthwhile detours from this short stage if you are into cave hermitages.
First, on the left soon before you arrive at Villaescusa, there is a short spur off the camino that goes to Ermita Rupestre de El Tobazo.

Then, about 8km after leaving Orbaneja del Casrtillo, turn right taking the bridge across the river at Barrio de Cascajar, to do a loop that begins with the cave church Iglesia de Arroyuelos:
https://www.cantabriaromanica.com/articulos/iglesia-rupestre-de-arroyuelos


On the return leg to the camino you can visit the small Iglesia de Santa Santa Maria. There was once a Roman imperial villa in Santa Maria de Hito, which was excavated in the 70s and 80s, but then unfortunately re-buried so there is nothing to see.

An additional out and back 3.9 km from Santa Maria de Hito brings you to a really remarkable set of cave hermitages at Presillas de Bricia:
https://visitalasmerindades.es/presillas/
https://www.turismo-prerromanico.com/monumento/san-miguel-de-presillas-20130625215821/


The total loop adds 8.79km to the day’s walk, but it’s not a long day and the side trip looks totally worth it. If you leave out the leg to Presillas (which I wouldn't because it looks really special) it is about a 5km loop:


As I mentioned some stages ago, this is one of many ermitas or iglesias rupestres in the area, all from between the 6th and 10th C.
Here’s a clip from a larger map from:
https://www.turismo-prerromanico.com/arte/eremitorios/mapa/

Each pointer on the map is a rock hermitage – and there is a much higher density of them here as opposed to other places in Spain. Between Orbaneja del Castillo and Aguilar de Campoo, six are on (or close to) the route of the camino. That website (link above the photo) blew me away. Before this week, I had no idea that these cave hermitages existed, and they evoke the same sense of mystery as do the desert fathers of the first millennium. Who were these hermits in the wilderness? And how did they live? Back then, these would have been impossibly remote.

This is a beautifully done blog about all the rock churches:
https://chitiya.wordpress.com/2016/11/05/la-ruta-de-las-iglesias-rupestres/

It’s not clear how many of these ermitorios are ever open (though some are small and open to the weather), so best to inquire where you are staying to see if they are gated or locked, and if so how to get in. I found a website that said “[A]ll these churches are usually locked (though they’re striking from the outside too). You’ll need to contact the helpful Oficina de Turismo de Valderredible in advance to arrange visits.”

(It’s worth mentioning in this context that well North of the Viejo – closer to the Olvidado proper – is the huge cave system and hermitage of Ojo Guareña, which is close to the route of the ‘regular’ Olvidado from Bilbao:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ojo_Guareña
https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...quisicedo-that-may-be-of-your-interest.37352/

This is also worth a look in the same general area, a beautiful walk described in the blog that Laurie posted about while ago:
https://yendoporlavida.com/2019/11/14/ruta-el-ventanon-de-sotoscueva-desde-ojo-guarena/)

If you are tired of cave hermitages, you might still want to take the slight deviation to visit the beautiful Romanesque Colegiata San Martin de Elines, only a small deviation from @caminka ’s track at San Martin de Elines.

Here, both the capitals and corbels are remarkable. The Mozarabic remains of the cloister and graveyard, as well as the Rupestrian churches nearby, are evidence of the early inhabitants in the Valderredible Valley.

 

[caminka]

Day 14. Orbaneja del Castillo – Polientes 18.5km (or 26.25 with side trip to Ermita) 17.8 or 26.02
Between OdC and Aguilar de Campoo, we mostly follow the Ebro and dip in and out of Cantabria, which has a zig-zag boundary with Castilla y Leon.

There are a number of worthwhile detours from this short stage if you are into cave hermitages.
First, on the left soon before you arrive at Villaescusa, there is a short spur off the camino that goes to Ermita Rupestre de El Tobazo.

Then, about 8km after leaving Orbaneja del Casrtillo, turn right taking the bridge across the river at Barrio de Cascajar, to do a loop that begins with the cave church Iglesia de Arroyuelos:
https://www.cantabriaromanica.com/articulos/iglesia-rupestre-de-arroyuelos
View attachment 76384

On the return leg to the camino you can visit the small Iglesia de Santa Santa Maria. There was once a Roman imperial villa in Santa Maria de Hito, which was excavated in the 70s and 80s, but then unfortunately re-buried so there is nothing to see.

An additional out and back 3.9 km from Santa Maria de Hito brings you to a really remarkable set of cave hermitages at Presillas de Bricia:
https://visitalasmerindades.es/presillas/
https://www.turismo-prerromanico.com/monumento/san-miguel-de-presillas-20130625215821/
View attachment 76385 View attachment 76386

The total loop adds 8.79km to the day’s walk, but it’s not a long day and the side trip looks totally worth it. If you leave out the leg to Presillas (which I wouldn't because it looks really special) it is about a 5km loop:
View attachment 76387

As I mentioned some stages ago, this is one of many ermitas or iglesias rupestres in the area, all from between the 6th and 10th C.
Here’s a clip from a larger map from:
https://www.turismo-prerromanico.com/arte/eremitorios/mapa/
View attachment 76388
Each pointer on the map is a rock hermitage – and there is a much higher density of them here as opposed to other places in Spain. Between Orbaneja del Castillo and Aguilar de Campoo, six are on (or close to) the route of the camino. That website (link above the photo) blew me away. Before this week, I had no idea that these cave hermitages existed, and they evoke the same sense of mystery as do the desert fathers of the first millennium. Who were these hermits in the wilderness? And how did they live? Back then, these would have been impossibly remote.

This is a beautifully done blog about all the rock churches:
https://chitiya.wordpress.com/2016/11/05/la-ruta-de-las-iglesias-rupestres/

It’s not clear how many of these ermitorios are ever open (though some are small and open to the weather), so best to inquire where you are staying to see if they are gated or locked, and if so how to get in. I found a website that said “[A]ll these churches are usually locked (though they’re striking from the outside too). You’ll need to contact the helpful Oficina de Turismo de Valderredible in advance to arrange visits.”

(It’s worth mentioning in this context that well North of the Viejo – closer to the Olvidado proper – is the huge cave system and hermitage of Ojo Guareña, which is close to the route of the ‘regular’ Olvidado from Bilbao:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ojo_Guareña
https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...quisicedo-that-may-be-of-your-interest.37352/

This is also worth a look in the same general area, a beautiful walk described in the blog that Laurie posted about while ago:
https://yendoporlavida.com/2019/11/14/ruta-el-ventanon-de-sotoscueva-desde-ojo-guarena/)

If you are tired of cave hermitages, you might still want to take the slight deviation to visit the beautiful Romanesque Colegiata San Martin de Elines, only a small deviation from @caminka ’s track at San Martin de Elines.
View attachment 76390
Here, both the capitals and corbels are remarkable. The Mozarabic remains of the cloister and graveyard, as well as the Rupestrian churches nearby, are evidence of the early inhabitants in the Valderredible Valley.

I didn't know about all those cave churches. woow!
unfortunately, I missed the turn-off for the church of elines and beat myself up for it (too) later on. It was a very misty morning and I may have been a bit daydreaming while walking. don't miss the church, it has remarkable romanesque sculpture.

 

[peregrina2000]

Here is a picture of a medieval hermitage in the Ojo Guareña. The Olvidado crosses through this area, but we didn’t see this! The Camino does take you past several large clusters of paleolithic graves, which were interesting but this is spectacular.

Turns out that this XII century ermita de San Bernabé is about 2.5 km off the camino Olvidado, if I had only known!!!!!

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/Ojo_Guareña,_julio_de_2008_(2).jpg

 

[VNwalking]

this is spectacular

Yes - the inside looks especially so.
But clearly San Miguel de Presillas is pretty impressive too.

 

[VNwalking]

Day 15. Polientes – Villanueva de la Nia 13.4 or 17.5 (Road or Caminka’s track)
The way @caminka went is a bit longer than going directly along the road, and you could go that way if you wanted to shorten this leg. but you'd be missing this:

Graves and hermitage of La Velilla -Rocamundo
Near Rebollar de Ebro, quite close to the outset where the camino crosses the river at Polientes, is the hermitage of La Velilla. It’s a very short detour off the camino and a place of local pilgrimage. The building is from the 17th C, with a vaulted apse and a belfry. Adjacent to the hermitage, there are three rock tombs, now open to the weather.

Iglisia San Vicente
Just past the town of Rebollar de Ebro and also a short detour off the camino, San Vicente was built in the 13th century and has been rebuilt several times during the 16th and 19th centuries.

San Pantaleon
A little off the camino between Sobrepeña and Sobrepenilla is San Pantaleón, an archaeological site that has yielded the remains of 4,500 years of human habitation from prehistory to the end of the Middle Ages. Among its numerous ruins are its church and an impressive necropolis from the 13th century. The town of La Puente del Valle on the Ebro near here has an interpretation center. It’s a short detour form the camino – take the next road to the right after leaving Sobrepeña and there will an access on your left after about 1km. Altogether it’s a 2.24km round trip there and back to the camino.
https://enricvillanueva.wordpress.c...-san-pantaleon-la-puente-del-valle-cantabria/


Ermita Santa Maria de Entrepuerta
This is right near the camino shortly after the turnoff to San Vicente, built on a rocky outcrop that forms a small cliff, at the base of which is an artificial cave, presumably used by hermits at one point.
At the foot of the belfry and to the south of the hermitage there are more graves, oriented East-West.


[The photo above is from:
https://enricvillanueva.wordpress.com/
It’s a very useful website with a list of rock tombs all over Spain, with pages about each one.]

If the days leading through the gorge were about cave hermitages, this part of the camino seems to be about necropoli. There are many, and they stir up many questions...about the burials, about who and when and what happened to the mortal remains of so many...

Iglesia de la Purisma, Sobrepenilla
This church is a little gem, with some quirky sculptures that are more rough than artistic.
A website devoted to the Romanesque describes it this way (Google and my rough translation):

The building defines the archetype of a mountain village church. The workshops that built this type of edifice had few financial means. The [local] stonemasons proved to be skilled in roughing the stone blocks, lifting sturdy stonework, although they left much to be desired in terms of sculpting figurative scenes, demonstrating more imagination than mastery.

Villanueva de la Nia.
Posada del Cazador with its welcoming red parasols is a happy sight in Villanueva de la Nia.

There is one more church at the end of the day here at Villnueva de la Nia - the Church of San Juan Bautista, which sits on a sandstone promontory on the far side of town. Its was built in the 12th century, but now only the head with a transept and the semicircular apse are preserved – the rest of the building is a conglomerate of extensions and renovations from the 16th to the 19th Cs. But the iconography in the outer corbels and in the capitals of the triumphal arch are still there, carved the same sometimes erotic style as in San Pedro de Cervatos.



Here are @caminka’s photos from her wililoc track: the guy picking his teeth made me chuckle out loud. And then someone has a toothache...and is that woman giving birth!? From this fortunate vantage point it makes me ponder the common and universal woes in the 12th C., when toothaches and birth would have been much more dangerous events than they are now.



There’s a necropolis here, too, but not well preserved. One site I was looking at said that “it is certain that throughout the perimeter that surrounds the apse there is an extensive necropolis that could possibly be dated between the 10th and 11th centuries.”

 

[caminka]

Day 15. Polientes – Villanueva de la Nia 13.4 or 17.5 (Road or Caminka’s track)
The way @caminka went is a bit longer than going directly along the road, and you could go that way if you wanted to shorten this leg.

I followed the GR 99 all the way and didn't get lost this time.

posada del cazador must have been somehow fortified once. it has interesting corridors that apparently run the whole lenght (circle) of the building.
there is also another house with scallops in its coat-of-arms.

the guy picking his teeth made me chuckle out loud. And then someone has a toothache...and is that woman giving birth!?

these were one of the most interesting corbels I saw. I spent a while guessing what they could represent. I think that is certainy a woman giving birth. quite amazing.

 

[VNwalking]

Day 16.
Villanueva de la Nia – Aguilar de Campoo
After following the Ebro since Miranada de Ebro, the Camino Viejo finally leaves it after Villanueva de la Nia – the rio heads one way, north to its source, and we head the other west into a new and less dramatic landscape, up the Valderredible.

As the camino passes the village of Susila, immediately up the scarp from here on the left is the famous Mirador de Valcabado, with a sweeping view of the entire valley. My OsmAnd map says that it’s possible to make a detour up there – it adds 3km to the day and is well worth it if you are fit and have the time. What you miss out on, though, are the next two churches – which are special. (On the map below, the camino is the fine purple line while the detour is the wide one.)


There’s no doubt that this whole area is Ground Zero for an explosion of humble Romanesque hermitages and village churches. Here is a nice blog that describes a lot of what we encounter between here and Aguilar de Campoo, with some nice photos:
http://entrebosquesypiedras.blogspot.com/search/label/Unos días por el valle de Valderredible
And here is a lovely comprehensive site that offers a ton of information about the Romanesque in Cantabria:
https://www.cantabriaromanica.com/articulos/.c/iglesias

Staying down on the valley floor, shortly after Susila we come to Castrillo de Valdelomar, with its church from the 13th C.


There’s an extensive necropolis there as well.

Iglesia rupestre de Santa Maria de Valverde
From Lonely Planet (of all places!):

Dating back to the 10th century or earlier, Santa María de Valverde is the Ebro Valley's largest iglesia rupestre (rock-cut church). Written accounts from 978 AD describe the church as a simple one-nave affair; a 12th-century Romanesque expansion added the rooftop bell-gable and widened the interior into its present three-nave form.

The church retains a magical, rustic beauty, with irregular stone arches and rough-cut stone floors suffused in ghostly subterranean light. Visits are in conjunction with visits to interpretation centre next door, which gives an excellent introduction to this and the other rock-cut churches of the Ebro Valley.

Hours:10am-2pm & 4-7pm Sat & Sun mid-Mar–Jun & Sep–mid-Dec, Tue-Sun Jul-Aug, Mass 1pm Sun year-round.

Here is a map; the CA 273 is the camino here:



Pomar de Valdivia (Iglesia Parroquial La Santa Cruz)
Right after the Iglesia Santa Maria de Valverde, the camino leaves the road and takes off to the left. But if you carry on straight ahead you come to Peña Hortada (on the left as you walk towards the town of San Martin de Valdelomar), and Iglesia de San Augustin in the village.

Eremitorio rupestre de Peña Horacada
Another simple cave hermitage, reminiscent of the first one we encountered after Trespaderne. The website at the bottom of the photo is a wonderful source of information.


Iglesia de San Augustin
Another old and humble village church


Monte Bernorio
Approaching AdC, the camino swings South around Monte Bernorio. It may not be worth a detour as there is not much to see, but it’s worth knowing what you are walking past. It’s a nondescript hill, and one that looks like nothing much after the high landscape drama of the last days. But it it's the site of one of the most important cities of the Iron Age Pre-Roman people in Cantabria, which was continuously inhabited from the 8th C BC to the time of the Roman conquest. On it are what remains of its walls, fortifications, a fort and the necropolis. Some people consider Monte Bernorio to be one of the most important archeological sites in Europe.
Here is its story:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...the_Oppidum_of_the_Cantabri_at_Monte_Bernorio

South of Monte Bernorio, the two villages the camino passes through – Rebolledo de la Inera and Renedo de la Inera – each have a small 12th C church.

Soon the camino crosses the autovia and enters the outskirts of Aguilar de Campoo.
Thus ends this quieter but spectacular journey, as we merge with and continue on the 'regular' Olvidado that comes up from Bilbao. For the combination of history, patrimony, landscape, and sheer beauty this route rivals some of the best caminos out there, and I am surprised it is such a 'sleeper.'

 

[peregrina2000]

It’s a good thing this thread is ending, since it takes my ipad a few minutes to load it all up. What an amazing document you have created during this lockdown, VN. Many many hopes that it will someday become a real walk.

I made it a sticky, so it will not slide down into Olvidado oblivion. But isn’t it time to start a new virtual planning thread on the Camino de las Asturias from Aguilar to Oviedo? Of course, if you need a well-deserved rest, your fan club can wait a while.

 

[VNwalking]

But isn’t it time to start a new virtual planning thread on the Camino de las Asturias from Aguilar to Oviedo? Of course, if you need a well-deserved rest, your fan club can wait a while.

Haha! Thank you...
First I have to follow the Olvidado to Ponferrada. But I am already past Cistierna, so you won't have tooo long to wait.

Doesn't the Camino de las Asturias part company from this route way back in Alava? I have to go back and check. However it goes, it'll be a good wee walk!

 

[peregrina2000]

Doesn't the Camino de las Asturias part company from this route way back in Alava?

Oh, yes, that’s right. I think the split may be Puebla de Arganzon. It crosses the Olvidado at Cervera de Pisuerga, which is one day northwest of Aguilar de Campoo, so it must run a little north of the Ebro route you’ve so brilliantly laid out here.

 

[VNwalking]

I think the split may be Puebla de Arganzon. It

I just checked and you're right: PdA is where the paths diverge.

 

[peregrina2000]

Now that the virtual planning effort is complete, I have decided to move this thread over to the Olvidado sub-forum. When I research an untravelled camino, I go first to the sub-forum and scroll through. I am afraid this gold mine of a thread would get lost if left over in the virtual camino realm. I think it is the most exhaustive and excellent effort I have seen when it comes to mapping out possibilities on an untravelled camino. Many gold stars and many hugs of thanks to @VN!!!!!!!!!

Buen camino, Laurie

 

[VNwalking]

To cap off the thread here are a few tidbits I found about Aguilar de Campoo:

In a locked cave above AdC are the remains of two tombstones, which are said to mark the graves of Bernardo del Carpio (son Infanta Doña Ximena, daughter of King Don Alonso el II who died in the 850s), and of Fernán Gallo "a native of Burgos, Chancellor Maior in the battle of Ronces Valles where he lost an eye but not the banner." There is a piece of faux-history abut the tomb that has camino connections: Durendal (the sword of Roldán who died near Roncesvalles) was said to be in the tomb of Bernardo del Carpio who – according to legend – took the sword after the battle of Roncesvalles. So it ended up with him here after he died, In 1522, Carlos I took the sword to Madrid, where it remains. Some sword or another, that is...Durendal or not, this story would have been a nice lure for pilgrims and donors.

In town, below the castle is Ermita de Santa Cecilia, with its famous capital with the slaughter of the innocents.

AdC has a bunch of churches in addition to that:
Monastery of Santa María la Real (11th-13th centuries)
Collegiate Church of San Miguel (11th-16th centuries)
Church of Olleros de Pisuerga (7th-9th centuries)
Church of San Andrés (12th century)
Monastery of Santa Clara (founded in 1430)

Of these, the Monastery of Santa Maria la Real is farthest out of town to the West. According to an ancient legend, the origins of this monastery date back to the early 9th century, when the inhabitants of the northern mountain ranges gradually began to migrate towards the plains of the central plateau. However, the earliest records of and the first donations to the monastery date to the start of the 11th century; eventually its influence would extend into the lands of Palencia, Valladolid, Burgos and Cantabria.

The Collegiate of San Miguel is in the middle of the old town.
The church has three spacious pointed naves and dates back to the visigothic times, but was rebuilt in the 11th century. The main front is Romanesque and the original Gothic altarpiece was replaced by a Renaissance one and the tower is Herreran. The church contains sepulchres dating from the 12th-16th centuries and the white marble mausoleums of the marquises of Aguilar, who are represented praying and with clothes reaching down to their ankles.

Olleros de Pisuerga - the Church of the Santos Justo and Pastor
This is another cave church, well out of town to the South on the outskirts of Olleros de Pisuerga. From the outside you can only see by a small Atrium built in modern times, but inside is a Romanesque church, with two naves topped by barrel vault and its respective apses with the typical quarter sphere; the oldest part of the church is the the Sacristy and funeral chapel.

There's a very nicely done website that is a source of a lot of detailed information about Romanesque churches in the area here, including a name and phone number to call for keys! (The photo above came from this website):

Romanesque Churches of Northern Spain - Part 1

Introduction Northern Spain has an extraordinary number of beautiful Romanesque churches. Whether you are following the pilgrimage ...

romanicodigital.blogspot.com

This is pretty sketchy information about AdC, so if anyone who's walked the Olvidado has anything more to add, please sing out!

In my walking, I'm well along on my way to Ponferrada at this point - but will not continue the thread past Aguilar de Campoo. There's already plenty information out there from here on out!

 

[VNwalking]

I think it is the most exhaustive and excellent effort I have seen when it comes to mapping out possibilities on an untravelled camino. Many gold stars and many hugs of thanks to @VN!!!!!!!!!

Awwww, thank you Laurie. It was such a joy, and a real gold mine of wonder. This route truly has it all.

 

[peregrina2000]

On our Olvidado zoom, I was just reminiscing about visiting the Ermita underneath the castle in Aguilar. The first time through, I walked up to the doors and found them locked, not surprising. On my second walk, after @alansykes waxed poetic about being lucky to get inside, I did a little research. And last year, I struck gold. I went to the priest’s house, which is right in the main square near the Colegiata. I gave him my passport and he gave me, gasp, the keys to the church. And the keys to the light box inside the church. It could only have been more atmospheric if the keys had been those hunge medieval clunkers, but they were modern keys. In any case, opening up the church and entering alone, and then turning on the lights and having all the time in the world to sit quietly was a remarkable experience. And the capital is five-star.

 

[VNwalking]

And the capital is five-star.

It's one of several, from the look of that blog I linked to above. If you go, print out the text of that (or pull it up on your phone) and you will have a complete guide.

And (as a coda, to tie up a loose end from earlier) from another unrelated post in the same website, there is an interesting explanation for the startling or obscene elements of the churches like San Pedro de Tejada, that of apotropaic protection (machine translated from Spanish):

in the line that we have been maintaining for years, they represent grotesque, satirical and daring, mysterious and intriguing scenes, which they seek to attract attention and surprise the gaze of those who pass through there - and the system is still successful - to protect the temple from envy and bad feelings, especially when it is an isolated church in the countryside, like many lost hermitages in the mountains, which have at least some obscene element for protection.

 

[VNwalking]

Today I made it to Ponferrada!
Thanks everyone, having this to do kept me focused.
In the near future, probably next week, I'll start the Camino de las Asturias...so stay tuned.

 

[Former member 49149]

Today I made it to Ponferrada!
Thanks everyone, having this to do kept me focused.
In the near future, probably next week, I'll start the Camino de las Asturias...so stay tuned.

Well done, intrepid and focussed pilgrim! Wherefore next, I wonder?...

 

[VNwalking]

Back to Puebla de Arlanzon, to peel off on the Asturias, headed to Oviedo!

Camino de las Asturias - Etapas

 

[peregrina2000]

It's wild. The Wikiloc track satellite photo shows a ruined bridge...with the track walking on water over the river in a dead-straight line. A peregrino with spiritual powers, I guess.

Going back to sort out some details, I finally found the answer. This news article dated February 2020 describes a new pedestrian bridge constructed 200 meters upriver from the old location. I don’t know why this news article only shows a picture of the old bridge with its middle missing. It would be comforting to actually see a picture of the new bridge! But I think it looks like the mystery is solved.

El Camino del Ebro ya tiene paso en Sobrón

El puente de La Blanca ha sido sustituido aguas arriba por una nueva pasarela más elevada Su altitud evitará las consecuencias de las riadas

www.noticiasdealava.eus

 

[peregrina2000]

Day 9. Banos de Sabron - Frias (via the South bank of the Ebro after Embalse de Sabron)
Here is a screenshot of my proposed route, which diverts from the Viejo that both @caminka and @Sheffield James walked, missing Quintana Martin Galindez altogether

it looks like a lot of road walking on the southern route, though? that must have been one of the reasons I chose the northern route (and the menhirs(?) and probably cheaper accommodatoin in quintana).

Follow-up on this day after some more searching. As VN said later on in the thread, it would be easy to follow the “official“ Viejo (stage from Baños de Sobrón to Trespaderne) till Montejo de Cebas. At that town, don’t cross the river and walk about 3 km on BU-520 into Frías. The next day, no need to backtrack to Montejo de Cebas. There’s another bridge right out of Frías that will connect with the camino track.

As far as lodging, Convento Vadillo in Frías will rent individual rooms and communicates via WhatsApp. 34 667 05 68 69.

With a 19 km walk from Baños (or more likely the Hotel Durtzi a few kms beyond) it will make for a very short day with plenty of time to enjoy Frías and walk 2-3 km to Tobera, where there is a romanesque church Santa María de la Hoz. Below it is a small ermita, santo Cristo de los Remedios. Pictures show it to be in a beautiful setting, but the church is likely to be closed. There is also a path up through the village and beyond to some waterfalls.

Do not confuse this with Santa María de Tobera, another Romanesque church (according to what I have read it has the most explicitly erotic capitals in the province), which is located near the village of Santurde, about 16 km from Miranda de Ebro.

Next day, 10 km to Traspaderne, and carry on!

 

[VNwalking]

As far as lodging, Convento Vadillo in Frías will rent individual rooms and communicates via WhatsApp. 34 667 05 68 69.

BTW, This is a CR, not a convent.
They had me there. Clearly I'm a sucker for marketing.

 

[peregrina2000]

BTW, This is a CR, not a convent.
They had me there. Clearly I'm a sucker for marketing.

BUT.... Nuestra Casa Rural "El Convento de Vadillo", es una casona de priedra, que forma parte del antiguo Convento Santa María de Vadillo, fundado en el siglo XIII y administrado por Canónigos de San Agustín.

(the CR is an old stone house, which forms part of the old Santa María de Valdillo Convent, established in the 13th century and administrated by the order of San Agustín).

 

[DoughnutANZ]

Day 2. Hiriberri to Etxarri Aranatz

OsmAnd tells me that in the surrounding hills ..... which leaves near this campground where I stopped for the night (it even has a swimming pool!):

Camping in Etxarri Aranatz Navarre Basque Country Caravanning

Urbasa eta Aralar parkeen artean dago, naturaz inguratuta. Etxarri kanpinean opor ahaztezinak izango dituzu. Kanpin familiarra Nafarroan. Kanping-Caravanning, Euskal Herrian.

www.campingetxarri.com

Are you carrying a tent or do they cater for singles in the bungalows or mobile homes?

Or is there a pilgrim option that is not listed on their website?

 

[VNwalking]

Are you carrying a tent or do they cater for singles in the bungalows or mobile homes?

Not me! My days of a 50lb pack are long gone! It does looks like they have other accomodation.

 

[VNwalking]

the CR is an old stone house, which forms part of the old Santa María de Valdillo Convent, established in the 13th century and administrated by the order of San Agustín

I wonder...Does that mean now administered by them, or originally adminustered by them?

 

[peregrina2000]

I wonder...Does that mean now administered by them, or originally adminustered by them?

I was curious, too so with a little googling I found an article describing an effort to get restoration works started because the monastery is in bad shape. That article says that the monastery was occupied till the 19th century.

And a shout-out of many thanks to @caminka, without whose tracks planning this route would have been impossible. I’m almost done with my rough plan, and it looks like 14 days walking will get me from Pamplona to Aguilar. But since some of the days are a bit ambitious, I’ll have to add a cushion of a couple of days.

And there is a special place in heaven for VN. Going back through this thread in one fell swoop, it becomes so clear that this was a monumental effort.

 

[peregrina2000]

Question for the day. Based on all this great information, I have tentatively sketched out a day from Frías to Oña to Trespaderne. I have found two very different routes to go from Frías to Oña.

One goes south. One goes north. The southerly one is about 5 km longer and has a few hundred more meters of elevation. That’s probably going to be the deciding factor, but I just thought I’d check with my Viejo comrades.

Oña to Trespaderne is about 18, with several miradores on the way, so I am envisioning a lot of natural beauty.

 

[VNwalking]

Question for the day. Based on all this great information, I have tentatively sketched out a day from Frías to Oña to Trespaderne. I have found two very different routes to go from Frías to Oña.

Sorry, Laurie, I missed this. Replying only a year or so late...

Looking at your wikiloc tracks they are similar if not identical to what I posted here.
So to save you the hassle of going back, here are a few things from upthread that are pertinent, all in one place:

So here are options, all in one place; the main difference between A/B/C/D and E/F being whether you get to Oña from Frias or Pancorbo. The options I think are preferable have the asterisks; it would be a pity to miss the stage between Trespaderne and QdV. Really the main choice comes down to whether you will see Frias or Pancorbo; A and E below allow the highlights between Trespaderne and QdV regardless of which way you walk.

Via Frias
*A. Frias - Oña (via Tobera) - Trespaderne (29.7km),
Trespaderne - Quintana de Valdivielso (26.8 km) on Camino
B. Frias - Oña (via Tobera) (18.1 km),
Oña - Quintana de Valdivielso (28.2km)
(Through the Valdivielso valley, but bypassing Trespaderne, Ermita Rupestre de San Pedro, and the hermitage/waterfall at Tartales de los Montes)
C. Frias - Oña (via Tobera) (18.1 km), Oña - Poza de Sal (31.5 km),
Poza de Sal - Quintana de Valdivielso (29.8 km)(What @Sheffield James did)
D. Frias - Oña (via Trespaderne)(24.3 km),
Oña - Quintana de Valdivielso (28.2 km)(as B, above, but walking to Oña via Trespaderne, not Tobera)

Via Pancorbo
**E. Pancorbo - Oña, (32.7 km)
Oña - Trespaderne (12.3km)(onward on regular Viejo)
F. Pancorbo - Oña, (32.7 km)
Oña - Quintana de Valdivielso (28.2 km, as B and D above)

I bolded my preferences. I would love to try E, though it misses Frias and Tobera.

Here are the screenshots of my OSMand maps:

Here are some maps...mix and match to your heart's content!

The main thing I would not want to miss with whatever alternative are the Romanesque goodies in the Valdivielso Valley and surrounding areas. So:

Here's a screenshot of what it would look like to go from Oña to QdV; it's about 25 km. It involves some backtracking from the day before, but this way at least you do not miss San Pedro de Tejada.

Specifically, there is a section of the Romanesque in the Valdivielso Valley and surrounding areas.

And the last comment about the Pancorbo option here:

I know you discounted it, but Puebla de Arlanzon-Pancorbo-Oña-Frias is a great option, blowing through Miranda de Ebro. It's only 32 km between PdA and Pancorbo, giving the same number of days as PdA-MdE-S-F.

This is the one place on the Viejo where there are lots of alternative routes, and all of them have their benefits and drawbacks. Lots of choices, none bad!

. I hope beyond words that we can walk it someday!

Oh, man. Let's go!

 

[VNwalking]

@WestKirsty just walked the first 3 days of this camino and wrote it up here:

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/3-days-on-the-asturias-viejo-pamplona-to-salvatierra.77467/#post-1078884

It's a thread with a lot of information - very much worth bookmarking!

 

[MARSKA]

Amazing doesnt even come close.

 

[chinacat]

I didn’t follow this thread consistently at the time it was posted but it has made a wonderful read on a dull, damp early February day in Wales.

Thank you, VN, for an astonishing bit of research!!

(and to @caminka and Laurie )

 

[VNwalking]

Thank you @chinacat, it was so much fun for all of us to do.

The first part of this camino would make a wonderful alternative route from Pamplona for people walking the Francés and wanting a bit of quiet. Walk the Viejo for the few days to Salvatierra, then where the Viejo heads up into the Ebro hinterlands, continue to follow the Via de Bayona the all the way to Burgos.

Well, it would not be the Francés proper between Pamplona and Burgos, but what's a few hundred kms between friends? And it closely follows the Roman route, likely also followed by many pilgrims.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Personally, I could consider Pamplona > Altsasu > Vitoria > Miranda de Ebro -- but from there I'd need some serious convincing not to > Briviesca > Burgos !!

The way at first follows the autopista, but looks beautiful as it gets closer to Irurzun and Hiriberri

As to this, it seems to me that another sensible route would be along the river out of Pamplona > Ororbia > Izcue (via Ibero or not) > Artázcoz > Izu > Egillor > Beaosáin > Anotz > tarmac through the canyon > Errotz > Izurdiaga > Irurtzun > etc.

 

[VNwalking]

Personally, I could consider Pamplona > Altsasu > Vitoria > Miranda de Ebro -- but from there I'd need some serious convincing not to > Briviesca > Burgos !!

Yes, its so nice, indeed! And the old Roman road. So that's exactly why I was suggesting it in the last post. A wonderful way to dip one's toes into the water of less trafficked caminos.

Others may want nothing to do with the Francés, and neither need nor want a cafe every several kms. So for them Viejo to Aguilar de Campoo, then one of the following:

• Olvidado - Invierno
• Olvidado - Francés (briefly, Cacabelos to O Cebreiro) - Via Koenig
• Olvidado -San Salvador - Primitive (or Norte)

 

[Stivandrer]

Yes, its so nice, indeed! And the old Roman road. So that's exactly why I was suggesting it in the last post. A wonderful way to dip one's toes into the water of less trafficked caminos.

Others may want nothing to do with the Francés, and neither need nor want a cafe every several kms. So for them Viejo to Aguilar de Campoo, then one of the following:

• Olvidado - Invierno
• Olvidado - Francés (briefly, Cacabelos to O Cebreiro) - Via Koenig
• Olvidado -San Salvador - Primitive (or Norte)

No1 seems the most alluring

 

[JabbaPapa]

Others may want nothing to do with the Francés, and neither need nor want a cafe every several kms. So for them Viejo to Aguilar de Campoo, then one of the following:

• Olvidado - Invierno
• Olvidado - Francés (briefly, Cacabelos to O Cebreiro) - Via Koenig
• Olvidado -San Salvador - Primitive (or Norte)

Or through Ponferrada to the Invierno.

 

[WestKirsty]

Personally, I could consider Pamplona > Altsasu > Vitoria > Miranda de Ebro -- but from there I'd need some serious convincing not to > Briviesca > Burgos !!

I walked the Viejo/Olvidado last summer. From Miranda de Ebro to Aguilar de Campoo had me saying "wow" outloud, daily...if not several times per day! Canyons, great paths, wonderful villages, waterfalls, ancient roads, I could go on and on. I still think of that week regularly and hope to go back to the area for more exploring!

 

[peregrina2000]

oh! that is very good news. the path along the south of the ebro beneath the cliffs to the bridge into banos de sobron was very lovely.

Caminka, I am looking at your tracks for the Viejo. Did you walk both the route on the north of the river and the route south of the river for the stage between Miranda de Duero and Baños de Sobrón? Your comment talks about the south path, but these tracks are on the north, right?

camino2012-122 miranda-de-ebro - banos-de-sobrón

camino2012-122 miranda-de-ebro - banos-de-sobrón Hiking trail in Miranda de Ebro, Castilla y León (España). Download its GPS track and follow the route on a map. Record your own itinerary from the Wikiloc app, upload the trail and share it with the community.

www.wikiloc.com

 

[caminka]

Caminka, I am looking at your tracks for the Viejo. Did you walk both the route on the north of the river and the route south of the river for the stage between Miranda de Duero and Baños de Sobrón? Your comment talks about the south path, but these tracks are on the north, right?

camino2012-122 miranda-de-ebro - banos-de-sobrón

camino2012-122 miranda-de-ebro - banos-de-sobrón Hiking trail in Miranda de Ebro, Castilla y León (España). Download its GPS track and follow the route on a map. Record your own itinerary from the Wikiloc app, upload the trail and share it with the community.

www.wikiloc.com

Yes. The first part to Puente Larra was to the north of the Ebro and was partly on Gr 99, yellow local routes and Gr 1. There were some dolmens I wanted to see. It was a nice walk.
After the bridge it was Gr 99 to the south of the Ebro. The detour to the necropolis was probably a local route.

 

[peregrina2000]

The first part to Puente Larra was to the north of the Ebro and was partly on Gr 99, yellow local routes and Gr 1. There were some dolmens I wanted to see. It was a nice walk

Thanks. I was confused because there are also tracks that stay on the south of the Ebro the whole time.

Etapa 11: Baños de Sobrón- Miranda de Ebro

Etapa 11: Baños de Sobrón- Miranda de Ebro Hiking trail in Sobrón, País Vasco (España). Download its GPS track and follow the itinerary on a map. El desfiladero de Sobrón se abre a la campiña mirandesa El sendero recorre el angosto tramo final del desfiladero de Sobrón por la orilla derecha del...

www.wikiloc.com

This track on the south shows a dolmen, too — this area is really chock full of dolmens!

 

[caminka]

Thanks. I was confused because there are also tracks that stay on the south of the Ebro the whole time.

Etapa 11: Baños de Sobrón- Miranda de Ebro

Etapa 11: Baños de Sobrón- Miranda de Ebro Hiking trail in Sobrón, País Vasco (España). Download its GPS track and follow the itinerary on a map. El desfiladero de Sobrón se abre a la campiña mirandesa El sendero recorre el angosto tramo final del desfiladero de Sobrón por la orilla derecha del...

www.wikiloc.com

This track on the south shows a dolmen, too — this area is really chock full of dolmens!

Interesting. Perhaps there is GR 99 on both sides? Or it could have been switched.

The 'dolmen' is part of the necropolis I mentioned. See my picture with it. It was like those rock-cut shelters/sanctuaries as the one before Cervera d Pisuerga.

 

[peregrina2000]

that's because they don't let the photos being taken inside. I did go inside but couldn't sneak even one photo.

We already know that San Pedro de la Tejada, near Quintana de Valdivielso, is owned privately, and that you have to reserve 48 hours ahead of time to see it.

My question is about the fencing. Google reviews repeatedly complain about a fence that keeps people away from visiting the exterior.

But if this is the fence that they are talking about, it seems to me that it really wouldn’t pose much of a problem for anyone willing to trespass a bit.

@caminka, do you remember the fencing? (maybe an unfair question since it was 12 years ago!).

 

[VNwalking]

But if this is the fence that they are talking about, it seems to me that it really wouldn’t pose much of a problem for anyone willing to trespass a bit.

I would.

 

[caminka]

We already know that San Pedro de la Tejada, near Quintana de Valdivielso, is owned privately, and that you have to reserve 48 hours ahead of time to see it.

My question is about the fencing. Google reviews repeatedly complain about a fence that keeps people away from visiting the exterior.

But if this is the fence that they are talking about, it seems to me that it really wouldn’t pose much of a problem for anyone willing to trespass a bit.

@caminka, do you remember the fencing? (maybe an unfair question since it was 12 years ago!).

View attachment 172367

I remember the fencing, the route took me right along. It was at least 2m high romboid type of 'see-through' fence, randomly overgrown with plants, that wetted my appetite just enough. But the ermita was some way away and too little visible through everything. I got a bit desperate.
I was very lucky that somebody was there and got my 15min before the siesta.
The lady (caretaker?) later appeared at albergue arte y natura and I got the impression she was part of the team working there.
Unless a big enough hole appears in the fence, there is no trespassing.

 

[peregrina2000]

The lady (caretaker?) later appeared at albergue arte y natura and I got the impression she was part of the team working there.

I just saw that the phone numbers for visiting the church are the same as the phone numbers for Arte y Natura. Maybe these guys are the owners. How in the world did this get into private ownership anyway????

 

[WestKirsty]

I remember the fencing, the route took me right along. It was at least 2m high romboid type of 'see-through' fence, randomly overgrown with plants, that wetted my appetite just enough. But the ermita was some way away and too little visible through everything. I got a bit desperate.
I was very lucky that somebody was there and got my 15min before the siesta.
The lady (caretaker?) later appeared at albergue arte y natura and I got the impression she was part of the team working there.
Unless a big ebough hole appears in the fence, there is no trespassing.

Yes, when I was there last year there is a big chain link fence going around the site but there is also big hole but not right at the church...just have to go a bit further like you're going to walk around it and it's there on the right. Very easy to get through last July.

I took a pic of the sign with numbers to call for visits. I can't seem to find it just now (on the Camino Lebaniego as I type this!) but can when I get home!

 

[peregrina2000]

(on the Camino Lebaniego as I type this!

Not to derail the thread, but @WestKirsty, you know your Viejo fans would love to follow along on the Lebaniego! You know how to pick your caminos, girl!

 

[WestKirsty]

Not to derail the thread, but @WestKirsty, you know your Viejo fans would love to follow along on the Lebaniego! You know how to pick your caminos, girl!

Aww, thanks for this! I'll post a summary when I'm home as this is a quick Camino on route to walk one of the Anillo de Picos. Today was San Vicente to Lafuente, tomorrow to Potes, then Espinama and then we're off Caminos and on other routes. I'm so happy to be here

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

My question is about the fencing. Google reviews repeatedly complain about a fence that keeps people away from visiting the exterior.

But if this is the fence that they are talking about, it seems to me that it really wouldn’t pose much of a problem for anyone willing to trespass a bit.

On their sign with open hours is (translated):
PROHIBITED PASSAGE THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE PREMISES AND ADJACENT PROPERTIES

Ermita de San Pedro de Tejada · Diseminado Puente Arenas, 31, 09559 Puente Arenas, Burgos, Spain

âââââ · Church

www.google.com

 

[VNwalking]

From Google Maps reviews. One of many such reviews:

Parece que no soy la única persona que ha sufrido la desconsideración de la individua que atiende a los visitantes. Nos echó con muy malas formas después de dejarnos pasar porque no teníamos intención de entrar a visitarla. Por lo demás la Ermita es preciosa, a juzgar por lo poco que pudimos ver.

It seems that it's on rudely and zealously guarded private property, the owners using the church as a way to make a few Euros.
A real pity.

 

[peregrina2000]

the regime for visiting in 2012 was like this: you hired a guide and had to have your own transport. you met the guide at the church in gozeo at 10h to see the beautiful frescoes inside (camino passes by but it's locked), then you met the guide at alaiza at 14h to see those primitive frescoes inside the church. there are pilgrims on these fresceos, too. that was the reason I didn't went to see the frescoes (and I still regret it). hopefully this has changed since then.
there is another fine dolmen in the vicinity of alaiza, Dolmen de Sorginetxe. I think you met the guide there also.

There are four so-called “iglesias pintadas de la llanada” (which include Gaceo, Alaiza, Añua, Arbulo). These churches are all located in the vicinity of Salvatierra-Agurain. The Álava Medieval site has more info.

I’ve just gotten some updated information on the scheduled visits, and it will be a challenge for pilgrims.

The visits are done on weekends, holidays, and Tuesdays and Thursdays in summer. They have two blocks, a morning and an afternoon segment. You can sign up for one or both.

11:00-12:30 - Gaceo and Alaiza (which, in my untrained opinion, seem to be more interesting than the other two).

Then the 1 - 2:30 pm block alternates between visiting Añua and Arbulo (Saturday and Tuesday in summer) or a visit to Salvatierra (Sunday and Thursdays in summer).

Problem is, you need your own car. One solution, for those who have the time, would be to walk from Salvatierra to the church at Gaceo (close to Salvatierra) for the 11 am visit. Then from Gaceo to Alaiza, there would be two possibilities — hope that another tourist would take you to Alaiza and then back to Salvatierra) or take a cab both ways (cabs in Salvatierra) or use one of those options to get to Alaiza and then walk back to Salvatierra (about 7 km). This would probably require a rest day, but since the great albergue in Alegría is only 12 (flat) kms from Salvatierra, maybe you could add those kms on after the visit(s) to make some forward progress that day.

This part of Spain is so full of ancient churches that I know it’s impossible to visit all of them on the Viejo, but some might find this alternative interesting.

 

[VNwalking]

great albergue in Alegría is only 12 (flat) kms from Salvatierra, maybe you could add those kms on after the visit(s) to make some forward progress that day.

That sounds like a really good idea.

 

[caminka]

There are four so-called “iglesias pintadas de la llanada” (which include Gaceo, Alaiza, Añua, Arbulo). These churches are all located in the vicinity of Salvatierra-Agurain. The Álava Medieval site has more info. This would probably require a rest day, but since the great albergue in Alegría is only 12 (flat) kms from Salvatierra, maybe you could add those kms on after the visit(s) to make some forward progress that day.

you might find useful the attached description I made when I was researching via baiona (it's a work in progress). it should at least get you from alaiza to alegría without backtracking to gazeo or salvatierra.

err, I made a mess of quotes and can't fix it. sorry!

 

[Pilgrim 122]

Thanks for this information I will be walking on this part of the viejo in October and definitely want to visit the churches at Alaiza and Gazeo. I planned to have a rest day in Vitoria-Gastiez but will take it in Salvatierra-Agurain instead. I will have to take a taxi but will check if there is any other pilgrims in the area nearer the time who might share.

 

[Pilgrim 122]

I really love Romanesque churches especially those with frescoes. I know a lot of planning has been done on this forum, I wonder if anyone has made a list of Romanesque churches that are on the viejo?
Should I start a new thread for this information?

 

[caminka]

I really love Romanesque churches especially those with frescoes. I know a lot of planning has been done on this forum, I wonder if anyone has made a list of Romanesque churches that are on the viejo?
Should I start a new thread for this information?

I'm not sure there is an actual list, but we will certainly be happy to have one. I think most should be in my guide, you can start there.
finally uploaded to the forum! (I though I did it, like, five years ago. )

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/resources/viejo-camino-guide.861/

 

[VNwalking]

Should I start a new thread for this information?

We talked about a lot of them uptrend. And Caminka's guide might have them, too. A separate list compiling all that would be super! Maybe as a resource rather than a thread.

Edit. We replied at the same time @caminka. Great, thanks!!

 

[Pilgrim 122]

I'm not sure there is an actual list, but we will certainly be happy to have one. I think most should be in my guide, you can start there.
finally uploaded to the forum! (I though I did it, like, five years ago. )

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/resources/viejo-camino-guide.861/

Thanks for this, it will be a great help. I'm particularly interested in the churches with medieval frescoes so am very excited about the two near Salvatierra-Agurain.

 

[caminka]

I'm not sure there is an actual list, but we will certainly be happy to have one. I think most should be in my guide, you can start there.
finally uploaded to the forum! (I though I did it, like, five years ago. )

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/resources/viejo-camino-guide.861/

is it possible for a moderator to replace the link to my guide on google.docs with this one on the forum?

the pour souls asking me for permission to download it are often in for a long wait because I check that email only a few times a year. um.

 

[caminka]

Thanks for this, it will be a great help. I'm particularly interested in the churches with medieval frescoes so am very excited about the two near Salvatierra-Agurain.

there is another one a bit off-route in the pdf file in the post #192.

 

[peregrina2000]

I know this is a planning thread done during Covid confinement, but I think it still has a huge amount of useful information.

I wanted to update to say that Ender wrote to me that he is currently walking the Viejo and has just reached Irurtzun. He’s following the trail depicted below, which is a bit confusing to me. He will post tracks when he’s done, and maybe we can get him to write a guide.