Changes to the Camino

norfolk-keith · Aug 17, 2023

Greetings fellow pilgrims

I'm just back from completing my 5th and final Camino and this time as I had always promised myself was to finish in Finistere.
I wanted to take this opportunity to share, my thoughts and findings from my journey.

First of all I would like to cover the cost of walking the whole Camino compared to the past 4, you will find varying thoughts and experiences regarding cost per day from experienced pilgrims but in general in the past you would find 35euros per day would get you an albergue for the night (10E), a pilgrim meal (10E) and that would leave you 15E to buy breakfast, coffee and snacks through the day which was more than enough, however it has changed quite considerably in 2023. Apart from the Municipal albergue which have always tried to keep their prices low the average price for a night can range between 14-16Euros for a bed, a pilgrims meal 12-14euros which leaves you approximately 5Euros for breakfast, coffees, snacks throughout the day. Realistically the daily rate has increased to a minimum of about 45Euros per day and believe me when I tell you the cost increases the closer you get to Sarria.

Next is the behaviour of pilgrims on the trail. Frequently I found pilgrims playing loud music, talking in a loud volume and generally being disrespectful to other pilgrims, so I'm hoping if you are about to to walk the Camino please take this on board, there is an etiquette when walking the trail which includes, respect, politeness, space with due care and attention for other pilgrims but also the Spanish people in the small towns and villages.

My last point I would like to raise is regarding the Botafumeiro. Pilgrims are going to be extremely disappointed when they attend the service at the cathedral expecting to see the magnificent display of the Botafumeiro swinging through the cathedral as it has done for many many many years only to find the cathedral has stopped doing it, the bishops office explained to us that it is now a "Pay to View" service that will cost you 500 Euros to see, the cathedral will only do it for free for the 4 main religious events of the calendar year eg: Easter/Christmas.

I can appreciate the church needs to raise funds to help support for the upkeep, repair and general running costs, but what I did notice was the vast increase in the number of tourists almost taking over the city, pilgrims are still visible but grossly outnumbered by tourists, compared to the first time 2015 when I walked into Cathedral square and felt a real humbleness and sense of belief and faith, now it's geared to commercialism of the tourists and less about the pilgrims.

I hope you find this useful in planning your future for the Camino, I wish you well and a safe journey.
Buen Camino
Keith (england)

grayland · Aug 17, 2023

Thank you for a thoughtful post.

Bradypus · Aug 17, 2023

norfolk-keith said:
it is now a "Pay to View" service that will cost you 500 Euros to see, the cathedral will only do it for free for the 4 main religious events of the calendar year eg: Easter/Christmas.

More like 12 definite times during the year. This is the list from the cathedral website.

MickMac · Aug 17, 2023

norfolk-keith said:
Greetings fellow pilgrims

I'm just back from completing my 5th and final Camino and this time as I had always promised myself was to finish in Finistere.
I wanted to take this opportunity to share, my thoughts and findings from my journey.

First of all I would like to cover the cost of walking the whole Camino compared to the past 4, you will find varying thoughts and experiences regarding cost per day from experienced pilgrims but in general in the past you would find 35euros per day would get you an albergue for the night (10E), a pilgrim meal (10E) and that would leave you 15E to buy breakfast, coffee and snacks through the day which was more than enough, however it has changed quite considerably in 2023. Apart from the Municipal albergue which have always tried to keep their prices low the average price for a night can range between 14-16Euros for a bed, a pilgrims meal 12-14euros which leaves you approximately 5Euros for breakfast, coffees, snacks throughout the day. Realistically the daily rate has increased to a minimum of about 45Euros per day and believe me when I tell you the cost increases the closer you get to Sarria.

Next is the behaviour of pilgrims on the trail. Frequently I found pilgrims playing loud music, talking in a loud volume and generally being disrespectful to other pilgrims, so I'm hoping if you are about to to walk the Camino please take this on board, there is an etiquette when walking the trail which includes, respect, politeness, space with due care and attention for other pilgrims but also the Spanish people in the small towns and villages.

My last point I would like to raise is regarding the Botafumeiro. Pilgrims are going to be extremely disappointed when they attend the service at the cathedral expecting to see the magnificent display of the Botafumeiro swinging through the cathedral as it has done for many many many years only to find the cathedral has stopped doing it, the bishops office explained to us that it is now a "Pay to View" service that will cost you 500 Euros to see, the cathedral will only do it for free for the 4 main religious events of the calendar year eg: Easter/Christmas.

I can appreciate the church needs to raise funds to help support for the upkeep, repair and general running costs, but what I did notice was the vast increase in the number of tourists almost taking over the city, pilgrims are still visible but grossly outnumbered by tourists, compared to the first time 2015 when I walked into Cathedral square and felt a real humbleness and sense of belief and faith, now it's geared to commercialism of the tourists and less about the pilgrims.

I hope you find this useful in planning your future for the Camino, I wish you well and a safe journey.
Buen Camino
Keith (england)

English Keith,
I was amazed to hear its 500 euro to see the Botafumeiro wow!!!
I have, believe it or not, never been in the Cathedral despite been in Santiago about 6 times, 7th next week, beautiful awe inspiring understated building from outside.
When walking the Camino I tended to go into smaller chapels more intimate and spiritual.
Always avoided paying into church's, not out of cost but found it disconcerting and before I am jumped on I know they need funds for upkeep that's what parishioners are for in my humble opinion.
Sorry to hear it was your last Camino as next week is mine, SDC to Finisterre/Muxia.
Buen Camino
Peregrino.

Bradypus · Aug 17, 2023

MickMac said:
English Keith,
I was amazed to hear its 500 euro to see the Botafumeiro wow!!!

It is 500 euro to pay for the Botafumeiro to be swung outside of one of the cathedral's own timetable days for its use. There is no charge to enter the cathedral whether the Botafumeiro is in use or not.

grayland · Aug 17, 2023

Actually....The fee (it was 300 euro 10 years ago) has always been there. There are many private groups who pay for the Botafumeiro other than the official days. Anyone (or group) can schedule it. This is not a new thing.

The commercial folks in Santiago... along with the hotel accommodations group.... did have a regular schedule of times that was paid by them..at least a few years ago.

trecile · Aug 17, 2023

norfolk-keith said:
My last point I would like to raise is regarding the Botafumeiro. Pilgrims are going to be extremely disappointed when they attend the service at the cathedral expecting to see the magnificent display of the Botafumeiro swinging through the cathedral as it has done for many many many years only to find the cathedral has stopped doing it, the bishops office explained to us that it is now a "Pay to View" service that will cost you 500 Euros to see, the cathedral will only do it for free for the 4 main religious events of the calendar year eg: Easter/Christmas.

That has been the case for years. There is no guarantee that the Botafumeiro will swing at any particular mass outside of several dates each year.

norfolk-keith said:
I did notice was the vast increase in the number of tourists almost taking over the city, pilgrims are still visible but grossly outnumbered by tourists, compared to the first time 2015 when I walked into Cathedral square

I doubt that it was much different a year later when I first walked. I remember arriving in Santiago and crossing paths with a tour group. The tour guide was saying "normally you would see pilgrims walking to the Cathedral." At that moment I was the only pilgrim around, and I wanted to say "Hey, I'm right here." Also, many pilgrims spend a few days in Santiago after they arrive, and without their backpacks they are indistinguishable from tourists.

K_Lynn · Aug 17, 2023

Bradypus said:
More like 12 definite times during the year. This is the list from the cathedral website.
View attachment 154805

I was just about to post that! I have cleverly scheduled my upcoming Camino to coincide with All Saints Day on November 1. I was very disappointed to learn in '21 that they no longer swung the botafumeiro every day and I am determined to see it!

K_Lynn · Aug 17, 2023

I recently came across this link which gives times and details on specific Masses throughout the year and times/days when the Botafumeiro swings. http://catedraldesantiago.es/liturgia/#botafumeiro

trecile · Aug 17, 2023

K_Lynn said:
I was very disappointed to learn in '21 that they no longer swung the botafumeiro every day and I am determined to see it!

I don't know if there ever was a time when they swung the Botafumeiro every day. It could have seemed that it did if you were in Santiago during a busy time when lots of groups paid for it.
Perhaps someone like @t2andreo knows.

Camino Chrissy · Aug 17, 2023

trecile said:
Also, many pilgrims spend a few days in Santiago after they arrive, and without their backpacks they are indistinguishable from tourists.

Only if they send a suitcase or duffle bag ahead of time to Santiago before they start their Camino, or do a little shopping after they arrive.

Kathor1 · Aug 17, 2023

norfolk-keith said:
regarding the Botafumeiro. Pilgrims are going to be extremely disappointed when they attend the service at the cathedral expecting to see the magnificent display of the Botafumeiro swinging through the cathedral as it has done for many many many years only to find the cathedral has stopped doing it

As others have pointed out the Botafumeiro did not swing "for many many years" every day of the year. For the record:

After the success of the Xacobeo/Holy Year 2010, the Hospitality Association of Santiago came up with the idea of a regular schedule of performances, and they were wiling to pay / donate the required sum which was €300 at the time (see here in 2010). It was then agreed that the Botafumeiro will swing every Friday at mass at 19:30 (see here in 2013). If you saw it at such an occasion, give your thanks to the hotel and restaurant owners of Santiago.
After several years, the association decided that they were no longer interested in paying. This was announced on this forum in January 2017 - already more than six years ago (see here). Apart from the 12 liturgical days already mentioned, it now swings at irregular times of the day and days of the week when a group of tourists, a group of Camino pilgrims or parish groups and similar organisations pay for it.

The Cathedral points out that the flight of the Botafumeiro is an ofrenda (an offering to the Apostle) that pilgrims and tourists make. When you attend a mass, online or in real life, where a parish group or a similar group makes such an offering, you will see that a member of the group proceeds to the altar and reads out such an offering to the Apostle - this does not happen often. Most of the time, it just swings at the end of mass without visible participation of the donor(s).

Perambulating Griffin · Aug 18, 2023

Kathar1na said:
As others have pointed out the Botafumeiro did not swing "for many many years" every day of the year. For the record:

After the success of the Xacobeo/Holy Year 2010, the Hospitality Association of Santiago came up with the idea of a regular schedule of performances, and they were wiling to pay / donate the required sum which was €300 at the time (see here in 2010). It was then agreed that the Botafumeiro will swing every Friday at mass at 19:30 (see here in 2013). If you saw it at such an occasion, give your thanks to the hotel and restaurant owners of Santiago.

After several years, the association decided that they were no longer interested in paying. This was announced on this forum in January 2017 - already more than six years ago (see here). Apart from the 12 liturgical days already mentioned, it now swings at irregular times of the day and days of the week when a group of tourists, a group of Camino pilgrims or parish groups and similar organisations pay for it.

The Cathedral points out that the flight of the Botafumeiro is an ofrenda (an offering to the Apostle) that pilgrims and tourists make. When you attend a mass, online or in real life, where a parish group or a similar group makes such an offering, you will see that a member of the group proceeds to the altar and reads out such an offering to the Apostle - this does not happen often. Most of the time, it just swings at the end of mass without visible participation of the donor(s).

Thank you so very much for this.
The swinging of the censer is not a parlour trick.
When it is paid for, it is paid for as part of the desire of a group to make that offering outside of the usual ritual times because they have made heir pilgrimage to the Apostle when they were able, rather than for a particular holy day.
I suppose a group could arrange to pay for it to swing for no reason other than to gawp, but the price and the effort of arranging it suggest to me that those who pay for it do so with the specific, sacred intent in place.

dick bird · Aug 18, 2023

Perambulating Griffin said:
those who pay for it do so with the specific, sacred intent in place.

Let us hope so.

Kathor1 · Aug 18, 2023

On the "ofrenda" concept: That is the view the Cathedral holds on to. They do not question the sponsors of a flight of the Botafumeiro as to what their desires and intentions for their donation / sponsorship / payment are.

Which does not stop us of course to speculate to our hearts' content.

Lexicos · Aug 18, 2023

Thank you for this post Keith. It is useful and helpful to have some sense of what to expect. My last Camino Frances was in 2017 and since then I’m sure it has changed. In about 3 weeks I’ll see just how much it has changed. I’ll be walking it (from Longrono) for the second time. I guess every pilgrim and every person walking the Frances has their own reasons for doing it. You certainly do have to choose your company carefully but also to be prepared for odd and unusual behaviour ……. some of it disconcerting, for sure. What I found, thankfully, is that the noisy and boisterous ones you meet at the start are usually quietened and a bit humbled by the time they reach Santiago. Not all, but most. Yep, it tests your patience at times. I often remind myself to see the pilgrims/tourists on the trail as a microcosm of society and tell my self to be philosophical about what you see and hear. What else can one do?
You say it’s your last Camino. Well, maybe, you never know. I hope my last one is a long way off.
Buen Camino while you’re away from the trail!

truenorthpilgrm · Aug 18, 2023

norfolk-keith said:
Frequently I found pilgrims playing loud music

I ran across this as well this year, and this behavior kind of blows my mind.

Perambulating Griffin · Aug 18, 2023

dick bird said:
Let us hope so.

Indeed. But at 900 euro, I think the expense mitigates questionable reasons to want to see the censer swing...
Does a group make a pilgrimage and spend 900 euro just to go home and tell people about the weird swinging smoker? I have my doubts.
I could be wrong... I am amazed at the things people will drop money on just to say they did it.
I wish that people who want/demand/feel entitled to be entertained by the Botafumeiro would at least learn what a censer is used for in a mass, would *at least* read through the standard structure of a mass before attending one, would try to remember that while cathedrals have always been sites that welcome visitors they are *places of worship*, not zoos.

Bradypus · Aug 18, 2023

Perambulating Griffin said:
Indeed. But at 900 euro, I think the expense mitigates questionable reasons to want to see the censer swing...

The last figure I heard was 500 euro. I don't think inflation is quite that bad in Spain.

Perambulating Griffin · Aug 18, 2023

Bradypus said:
The last figure I heard was 500 euro. I don't think inflation is quite that bad in Spain.

We looked into it in May because we were curious and the fee was 900... which, I think isn't so terrible a group on a shrine tour --- maybe 20-30 people who come on a bus and have been to several sites before arriving at SdC. My understanding in that case is that the shrine tour operator collects the fee and pays it on behalf of the group for their scheduled arrival. I don't know if the 900 would mean that perhaps the tour operator is charging an administration fee...
side note:
Also, I actually never realised until recently that churches hire established travel agents who specialise in religious tours. I had always just figured, I guess, that the parish secretary handled travel arrangements for those groups that head off with a few clergy to see a selection of shrines, etc. I learned that bit about agencies dedicated to spiritual tours because I am funding a shrine tour for a low income volunteer who has long dreamed of seeing places like Santiago, Lourdes and Fatima, etc.

Madeleine Jacobs · Aug 18, 2023

norfolk-keith said:
Greetings fellow pilgrims

I'm just back from completing my 5th and final Camino and this time as I had always promised myself was to finish in Finistere.
I wanted to take this opportunity to share, my thoughts and findings from my journey.

First of all I would like to cover the cost of walking the whole Camino compared to the past 4, you will find varying thoughts and experiences regarding cost per day from experienced pilgrims but in general in the past you would find 35euros per day would get you an albergue for the night (10E), a pilgrim meal (10E) and that would leave you 15E to buy breakfast, coffee and snacks through the day which was more than enough, however it has changed quite considerably in 2023. Apart from the Municipal albergue which have always tried to keep their prices low the average price for a night can range between 14-16Euros for a bed, a pilgrims meal 12-14euros which leaves you approximately 5Euros for breakfast, coffees, snacks throughout the day. Realistically the daily rate has increased to a minimum of about 45Euros per day and believe me when I tell you the cost increases the closer you get to Sarria.

Next is the behaviour of pilgrims on the trail. Frequently I found pilgrims playing loud music, talking in a loud volume and generally being disrespectful to other pilgrims, so I'm hoping if you are about to to walk the Camino please take this on board, there is an etiquette when walking the trail which includes, respect, politeness, space with due care and attention for other pilgrims but also the Spanish people in the small towns and villages.

My last point I would like to raise is regarding the Botafumeiro. Pilgrims are going to be extremely disappointed when they attend the service at the cathedral expecting to see the magnificent display of the Botafumeiro swinging through the cathedral as it has done for many many many years only to find the cathedral has stopped doing it, the bishops office explained to us that it is now a "Pay to View" service that will cost you 500 Euros to see, the cathedral will only do it for free for the 4 main religious events of the calendar year eg: Easter/Christmas.

I can appreciate the church needs to raise funds to help support for the upkeep, repair and general running costs, but what I did notice was the vast increase in the number of tourists almost taking over the city, pilgrims are still visible but grossly outnumbered by tourists, compared to the first time 2015 when I walked into Cathedral square and felt a real humbleness and sense of belief and faith, now it's geared to commercialism of the tourists and less about the pilgrims.

I hope you find this useful in planning your future for the Camino, I wish you well and a safe journey.
Buen Camino
Keith (england)

Good to see you back safely, I sincerely hope to encounter you on a next Camino once again, warm regards, Madeleine

Bradypus · Aug 18, 2023

Perambulating Griffin said:
We looked into it in May because we were curious and the fee was 900...

I just asked a friend in Santiago who used to be much involved with the cathedral and the pilgrim office. He tells me the current going rate is 500 euros. He also tells me that the 8 tiraboleiros are paid a fee of 15 euros each time they swing the Botafumeiro. If you were quoted 900 euros then I think someone was expecting a substantial bonus.

JabbaPapa · Aug 18, 2023

norfolk-keith said:
My last point I would like to raise is regarding the Botafumeiro. Pilgrims are going to be extremely disappointed when they attend the service at the cathedral expecting to see the magnificent display of the Botafumeiro swinging through the cathedral as it has done for many many many years only to find the cathedral has stopped doing it, the bishops office explained to us that it is now a "Pay to View" service that will cost you 500 Euros to see,

While the cost of organising it has varied over the decades, it has never been done for free except on some relevant Feast Days.

If it swings, it means that someone has paid for it, usually a group of people.

Bradypus said:
I just asked a friend in Santiago who used to be much involved with the cathedral and the pilgrim office. He tells me the current going rate is 500 euros. He also tells me that the 8 tiraboleiros are paid a fee of 15 euros each time they swing the Botafumeiro. If you were quoted 900 euros then I think someone was expecting a substantial bonus.

There's the cost of the incense, and no doubt medical and other Insurance costs.

Incense is not cheap in those sorts of quantities ...

Marbe2 · Aug 18, 2023

trecile said:
That has been the case for years. There is no guarantee that the Botafumeiro will swing at any particular mass outside of several dates each year.

I doubt that it was much different a year later when I first walked. I remember arriving in Santiago and crossing paths with a tour group. The tour guide was saying "normally you would see pilgrims walking to the Cathedral." At that moment I was the only pilgrim around, and I wanted to say "Hey, I'm right here." Also, many pilgrims spend a few days in Santiago after they arrive, and without their backpacks they are indistinguishable from tourists.

My experience in 2015 affirmed my decision to book reservations ahead for my first camino. And now I do so always in high-seasons.
We walked in mid September 2015 from SJPdP. Perhaps it was a “wave” time? But there was No room in SJPdP. Overflow spaces to sleep were on floors somewhere in town. Orrison was totally booked by July. Zubiri albergues were full when we arrived. We Had To wait 45 minutes on line just to get coffee. Albergues in Uterga were full! Puente La Reina was full and folks were walking on to Manueru to stay. When we arrived in Logrono, turned out that the wine festival was occurring and there were no beds available in town.
St John de Ortega, Ages, were all full!

AnaRosario · Aug 18, 2023

norfolk-keith said:
Greetings fellow pilgrims

I'm just back from completing my 5th and final Camino and this time as I had always promised myself was to finish in Finistere.
I wanted to take this opportunity to share, my thoughts and findings from my journey.

First of all I would like to cover the cost of walking the whole Camino compared to the past 4, you will find varying thoughts and experiences regarding cost per day from experienced pilgrims but in general in the past you would find 35euros per day would get you an albergue for the night (10E), a pilgrim meal (10E) and that would leave you 15E to buy breakfast, coffee and snacks through the day which was more than enough, however it has changed quite considerably in 2023. Apart from the Municipal albergue which have always tried to keep their prices low the average price for a night can range between 14-16Euros for a bed, a pilgrims meal 12-14euros which leaves you approximately 5Euros for breakfast, coffees, snacks throughout the day. Realistically the daily rate has increased to a minimum of about 45Euros per day and believe me when I tell you the cost increases the closer you get to Sarria.

Next is the behaviour of pilgrims on the trail. Frequently I found pilgrims playing loud music, talking in a loud volume and generally being disrespectful to other pilgrims, so I'm hoping if you are about to to walk the Camino please take this on board, there is an etiquette when walking the trail which includes, respect, politeness, space with due care and attention for other pilgrims but also the Spanish people in the small towns and villages.

My last point I would like to raise is regarding the Botafumeiro. Pilgrims are going to be extremely disappointed when they attend the service at the cathedral expecting to see the magnificent display of the Botafumeiro swinging through the cathedral as it has done for many many many years only to find the cathedral has stopped doing it, the bishops office explained to us that it is now a "Pay to View" service that will cost you 500 Euros to see, the cathedral will only do it for free for the 4 main religious events of the calendar year eg: Easter/Christmas.

I can appreciate the church needs to raise funds to help support for the upkeep, repair and general running costs, but what I did notice was the vast increase in the number of tourists almost taking over the city, pilgrims are still visible but grossly outnumbered by tourists, compared to the first time 2015 when I walked into Cathedral square and felt a real humbleness and sense of belief and faith, now it's geared to commercialism of the tourists and less about the pilgrims.

I hope you find this useful in planning your future for the Camino, I wish you well and a safe journey.
Buen Camino
Keith (england)

I’m saddened

thejoker · Aug 18, 2023

Great post Norfolk-Keith. The information you wrote sbout the botafumeiro is very interesting. I agree that prices are far higher now compared to just a few years ago and I'm surprised by the significant level of inflation that Spain has suffered from. I've also noticed fewer places offering a menu peregrino, though there are still plenty of them around. More places appear to be pushing a la carte fare or simply platos combinados. However, everything is still good value compared to a lot of other places in Europe and the US.

sfisch801 · Aug 18, 2023

norfolk-keith said:
Greetings fellow pilgrims

I'm just back from completing my 5th and final Camino and this time as I had always promised myself was to finish in Finistere.
I wanted to take this opportunity to share, my thoughts and findings from my journey.

First of all I would like to cover the cost of walking the whole Camino compared to the past 4, you will find varying thoughts and experiences regarding cost per day from experienced pilgrims but in general in the past you would find 35euros per day would get you an albergue for the night (10E), a pilgrim meal (10E) and that would leave you 15E to buy breakfast, coffee and snacks through the day which was more than enough, however it has changed quite considerably in 2023. Apart from the Municipal albergue which have always tried to keep their prices low the average price for a night can range between 14-16Euros for a bed, a pilgrims meal 12-14euros which leaves you approximately 5Euros for breakfast, coffees, snacks throughout the day. Realistically the daily rate has increased to a minimum of about 45Euros per day and believe me when I tell you the cost increases the closer you get to Sarria.

Next is the behaviour of pilgrims on the trail. Frequently I found pilgrims playing loud music, talking in a loud volume and generally being disrespectful to other pilgrims, so I'm hoping if you are about to to walk the Camino please take this on board, there is an etiquette when walking the trail which includes, respect, politeness, space with due care and attention for other pilgrims but also the Spanish people in the small towns and villages.

My last point I would like to raise is regarding the Botafumeiro. Pilgrims are going to be extremely disappointed when they attend the service at the cathedral expecting to see the magnificent display of the Botafumeiro swinging through the cathedral as it has done for many many many years only to find the cathedral has stopped doing it, the bishops office explained to us that it is now a "Pay to View" service that will cost you 500 Euros to see, the cathedral will only do it for free for the 4 main religious events of the calendar year eg: Easter/Christmas.

I can appreciate the church needs to raise funds to help support for the upkeep, repair and general running costs, but what I did notice was the vast increase in the number of tourists almost taking over the city, pilgrims are still visible but grossly outnumbered by tourists, compared to the first time 2015 when I walked into Cathedral square and felt a real humbleness and sense of belief and faith, now it's geared to commercialism of the tourists and less about the pilgrims.

I hope you find this useful in planning your future for the Camino, I wish you well and a safe journey.
Buen Camino
Keith (england)

Hi, Keith:
thanks for sharing your experience and your views. I was on the Portuges Central way in March, and had a much less intense experience re: bad behavior...likely because there were many fewer people on the pilgrimage at that time. I also was thrilled to see the Botafumeiro at the mass I attended the evening I arrived, with no payment required, so they must have changed recently OR they will do it without pay during the shoulder/off seasons? In any case, I hope your observations prepare pilgrims to change the change you witnessed.
Shelly

Dennis Pack · Aug 18, 2023

"Expectations" ... Why should we "expect" anything? Most pilgrims are visitors from other cultures. Why can't we just immerse ourselves in the Spanish culture and accept it for what ever it is? As a Pilgrim, what have you contributed to their culture? We come, we walk, we take advantage of what little some are able to offer ... and they do it so graciously ... then we complain that things aren't as we "expected".
I think there is a term for that .... probably several apply.
Buen Camino.

sfisch801 · Aug 18, 2023

Dennis Pack said:
"Expectations" ... Why should we "expect" anything? Most pilgrims are visitors from other cultures. Why can't we just immerse ourselves in the Spanish culture and accept it for what ever it is? As a Pilgrim, what have you contributed to their culture? We come, we walk, we take advantage of what little some are able to offer ... and they do it so graciously ... then we complain that things aren't as we "expected".
I think there is a term for that .... probably several apply.
Buen Camino.

Mmmmm....I didn't hear Keith speaking about the Spanish culture...I heard him speaking of pilgrim culture, and it IS important for pilgrims to immerse and adapt respectfully. I think y'all are saying the same thing. It is fair to expect pilgrims to behave respectfully toward the communities they visit as well as other pilgrims, IMHO...

NorthernLight · Aug 18, 2023

On my first Frances in 2013, I was forever having to listen to a woman strumming her ukulele - I’d try to get away from her but kept failing. On the same camino, I endured a group that would sing loudly, the same group of songs to which they did not know the words - again I struggled to escape them. So, I’m not so sure that insensitively noisy pilgrims are a new phenomenon. There are more pilgrims now, so if there is a percentage of pilgrims who are insensitive, then the whole number of them goes up.

I was fortunate in 2017 to see the Botafumeiro swing four times in four days - because groups had paid for it.

grayland · Aug 18, 2023

Marbe2 said:
My experience in 2015 affirmed my decision to book reservations ahead for my first camino. And now I do so always in high-seasons.
We walked in mid September 2015 from SJPdP. Perhaps it was a “wave” time? But there was No room in SJPdP. Overflow spaces to sleep were on floors somewhere in town. Orrison was totally booked by July. Zubiri albergues were full when we arrived. We Had To wait 45 minutes on line just to get coffee. Albergues in Uterga were full! Puente La Reina was full and folks were walking on to Manueru to stay. When we arrived in Logrono, turned out that the wine festival was occurring and there were no beds available in town.
St John de Ortega, Ages, were all full.

Sounds lovely.
....and part of the reason that so many of us now avoid the Camino Frances.

joecollins · Aug 18, 2023

Thanks for your insight. I value the experience of Camino veterans such as you. Peace.

RibbonRomanceAuthor · Aug 18, 2023

Last July when I finished my Camino, I stayed three nights in SdC. One day included a bus tour to Finistere and Muxia. I attended Mass in the cathedral three times, hopeful to see the Botafumeiro swing although my walk was more than enough. At the third Mass, as I was returning from communion, I was passed by several robed men who were heading for the alter. I'll never forget the feeling of gratitude that came over me as the realization of what was to occur dawned. There are numerous videos on You Tube or shared on Facebook as well as in the movie The Way that all provide an accurate visual. An in-person experience adds the special elements of the fragrance of the incense and the awed reaction of the crowd.

lt56ny · Aug 18, 2023

norfolk-keith said:
Realistically the daily rate has increased to a minimum of about 45Euros per day and believe me when I tell you the cost increases the closer you get to Sarria.

If you go to the grocery store and buy food for lunch and dinner you can easily still do 30 Euros a day for food. I do not do it every day but most days. I buy some sliced meat and cheese, or cheese and a premade salad, some snacks, sometimes sardines or tuna and I sit on a rock or on a bench and have a nice relaxing lunch. If it is really raining hard all days which happens now and then I will eat my lunch for dinner. If the town I am going to sleep in next shows no grocery store I will buy both meals the night before. If there is one I usually eat with other pilgrims in the albergue and we have fun great meals sometimes for 3 or 4 Euros. Of course you have to be a little flexible. Alot of albergues don't have kitchens but on the CF I think you can almost always find one that does. I have had lots of wonderful and memorable and fun dinners with other pilgrims in albergues. Almost always the food is as good or much better than a pilgrim menu at a fraction of the cost.
I think that in many towns especially on the CF and if you don't walk after November 31st or before about April 1 (Not sure exactly as I have never walked in spring) with the variety of sheer number of municipal albergues and the wonderful and (be generous if you can afford to) donativos you can still keep your nightly albergue budget at 15 euros or less a night. Probably less in most cases.

norfolk-keith said:
Next is the behaviour of pilgrims on the trail. Frequently I found pilgrims playing loud music, talking in a loud volume and generally being disrespectful to other pilgrims, so I'm hoping if you are about to to walk the Camino please take this on board, there is an etiquette when walking the trail which includes, respect, politeness, space with due care and attention for other pilgrims but also the Spanish people in the small towns and villages.

I agree that there are many rude and obnoxious pilgrims. Many might be an overstatement as people tend to remember them. I walk starting in late October (this year I have to start a little earlier unfortunately). But judging by your photos there is a good chance you are retired, like me, or at least have a more flexible schedule. There are other times to walk the CF that will afford far fewer and probably far more mellow pilgrims. You said you walked 5 caminos. Judging by what you have written, can I assume that most if not all were on the CF? I know you must have the peregrino blood in your veins as so many of us do. Have you walked other caminos? As you know there are so many. They all have their own unique character and flavor. I have walked many different caminos. Le Puy is different than the CF. The CF different from the Norte and the Norte is different than the VDLP and on and on. This year I will walk from Bayonne to Burgos on the Camino Vasco. Than walk on the Meseta to Leon (love the Meseta) and then head over to Porto and walk the coastal Portugues. I walked the CP from Lisbon on the Central route and would now like to experience the coastal route and if possible in early November walk the Espiritual Variante. (I will write to @jungleboy to see if it is realistic to walk this variant in November). So I am walking 3 different caminos and I know each will be unique and a great experience, no matter who I am with and what the weather and the camino puts in front of me. So if you haven't tried some of these other caminos, (Last year I did the Aragones and that is now a must do again with the Catalan), please do. Don't give up on pilgrimage. At our age what will keep us younger and stronger? Outside family and dearest friends what could make us happier. Buen Camino

trecile · Aug 18, 2023

sfisch801 said:
Mmmmm....I didn't hear Keith speaking about the Spanish culture...I heard him speaking of pilgrim culture,

I noticed that much of the "loud and boisterous" behavior came from groups of Spanish pilgrims partaking of their own culture in their own country.

NorthernLight said:
I was fortunate in 2017 to see the Botafumeiro swing four times in four days - because groups had paid for it

It's a bit if a double edged sword isn't it? It's not fair to complain about groups and complain when the Botafumeiro doesn't swing.

lt56ny · Aug 18, 2023

trecile said:
I noticed that much of the "loud and boisterous" behavior came from groups of Spanish pilgrims partaking of their own culture in their own country.

It's a bit if a double edged sword isn't it? It's not fair to complain about groups and complain when the Botafumeiro doesn't swing.

You are 100% correct about Spanish pilgrims acting like Spaniards. What a shock! When I comment about the behavior of pilgrims I am thinking about foreign pilgrims almost exclusively. It is cool to see the big Botafumeiro swing and I have seen it 3 times. If pilgrims really want to see it they could always try to find some other like minded pilgrims who all arrive on the same day and are willing to pay. That may be a little tough and a big hassle, or it could be just another motivation to do a camino again. Be happy you have had the privilege to walk a camino and spend those last few moments with your lifelong friends who you probably will never see again.

Devinesilk · Aug 18, 2023

norfolk-keith said:
Greetings fellow pilgrims

I'm just back from completing my 5th and final Camino and this time as I had always promised myself was to finish in Finistere.
I wanted to take this opportunity to share, my thoughts and findings from my journey.

First of all I would like to cover the cost of walking the whole Camino compared to the past 4, you will find varying thoughts and experiences regarding cost per day from experienced pilgrims but in general in the past you would find 35euros per day would get you an albergue for the night (10E), a pilgrim meal (10E) and that would leave you 15E to buy breakfast, coffee and snacks through the day which was more than enough, however it has changed quite considerably in 2023. Apart from the Municipal albergue which have always tried to keep their prices low the average price for a night can range between 14-16Euros for a bed, a pilgrims meal 12-14euros which leaves you approximately 5Euros for breakfast, coffees, snacks throughout the day. Realistically the daily rate has increased to a minimum of about 45Euros per day and believe me when I tell you the cost increases the closer you get to Sarria.

Next is the behaviour of pilgrims on the trail. Frequently I found pilgrims playing loud music, talking in a loud volume and generally being disrespectful to other pilgrims, so I'm hoping if you are about to to walk the Camino please take this on board, there is an etiquette when walking the trail which includes, respect, politeness, space with due care and attention for other pilgrims but also the Spanish people in the small towns and villages.

My last point I would like to raise is regarding the Botafumeiro. Pilgrims are going to be extremely disappointed when they attend the service at the cathedral expecting to see the magnificent display of the Botafumeiro swinging through the cathedral as it has done for many many many years only to find the cathedral has stopped doing it, the bishops office explained to us that it is now a "Pay to View" service that will cost you 500 Euros to see, the cathedral will only do it for free for the 4 main religious events of the calendar year eg: Easter/Christmas.

I can appreciate the church needs to raise funds to help support for the upkeep, repair and general running costs, but what I did notice was the vast increase in the number of tourists almost taking over the city, pilgrims are still visible but grossly outnumbered by tourists, compared to the first time 2015 when I walked into Cathedral square and felt a real humbleness and sense of belief and faith, now it's geared to commercialism of the tourists and less about the pilgrims.

I hope you find this useful in planning your future for the Camino, I wish you well and a safe journey.
Buen Camino
Keith (england)

Thank you so much for sharing

JerryStroebele · Aug 18, 2023

Prices for almost everything, everywhere have gone way up the past 3 years. I also averaged 35 euros a day pre Covid and 45 a day post Covid. No complaints. Actually an incredible bargain. With so much wonderful albergue and bar/cafe infrastructure, Spain is the best place to walk in the world. I am not religious but I thank God for the Caminos. Buen Camino

Crosscheck · Aug 18, 2023

I have also seen the changes in the camino over the years, especially close to Santiago de Compostela. Unfortunately, I see SdC and Finisterre have become equivalent to a Disneyland without rides. I simply adjust my routes and avoid all the OP observations.

Sedona11 · Aug 18, 2023

norfolk-keith said:
Greetings fellow pilgrims

I'm just back from completing my 5th and final Camino and this time as I had always promised myself was to finish in Finistere.
I wanted to take this opportunity to share, my thoughts and findings from my journey.

First of all I would like to cover the cost of walking the whole Camino compared to the past 4, you will find varying thoughts and experiences regarding cost per day from experienced pilgrims but in general in the past you would find 35euros per day would get you an albergue for the night (10E), a pilgrim meal (10E) and that would leave you 15E to buy breakfast, coffee and snacks through the day which was more than enough, however it has changed quite considerably in 2023. Apart from the Municipal albergue which have always tried to keep their prices low the average price for a night can range between 14-16Euros for a bed, a pilgrims meal 12-14euros which leaves you approximately 5Euros for breakfast, coffees, snacks throughout the day. Realistically the daily rate has increased to a minimum of about 45Euros per day and believe me when I tell you the cost increases the closer you get to Sarria.

Next is the behaviour of pilgrims on the trail. Frequently I found pilgrims playing loud music, talking in a loud volume and generally being disrespectful to other pilgrims, so I'm hoping if you are about to to walk the Camino please take this on board, there is an etiquette when walking the trail which includes, respect, politeness, space with due care and attention for other pilgrims but also the Spanish people in the small towns and villages.

My last point I would like to raise is regarding the Botafumeiro. Pilgrims are going to be extremely disappointed when they attend the service at the cathedral expecting to see the magnificent display of the Botafumeiro swinging through the cathedral as it has done for many many many years only to find the cathedral has stopped doing it, the bishops office explained to us that it is now a "Pay to View" service that will cost you 500 Euros to see, the cathedral will only do it for free for the 4 main religious events of the calendar year eg: Easter/Christmas.

I can appreciate the church needs to raise funds to help support for the upkeep, repair and general running costs, but what I did notice was the vast increase in the number of tourists almost taking over the city, pilgrims are still visible but grossly outnumbered by tourists, compared to the first time 2015 when I walked into Cathedral square and felt a real humbleness and sense of belief and faith, now it's geared to commercialism of the tourists and less about the pilgrims.

I hope you find this useful in planning your future for the Camino, I wish you well and a safe journey.
Buen Camino
Keith (england)

I also found the North Camino to be more expensive. In 2014, from Le Puy Venlay, we (2) spent less than 3,500 dollars. Del Norte (2) October 2022, over 6,000 dollars, food, albergues and some hotels were the cost for 2 was comparable to the albergues.
Big different experience, but still, it is an amazing experience once you arrive at the Plaza of Obradoiro

BoulderGT3 · Aug 18, 2023

The prices have gone up about the same as my hometown of Asheville. Why would you expect them to be immune to cost increases?

vernakeoho · Aug 18, 2023

Thank you for the post. As many responses indicated, the behavior of some peregrinos is indicative of the society we all live in. My brother and I are flying over from Hawaii to walk our third - and probably last (ages 79 and 81). We will focus on gratitude for the Camino experience and the residents of Spain who contribute so much to those of us wishing to share this rewarding journey.

BoulderGT3 · Aug 18, 2023

I think at this point if you are a frequent flyer on the Frances you should expect to be disappointed. Just do one of the other routes?

Greg Petropoulos · Aug 18, 2023

I’ve walked a handful of Caminos since I experienced the Frances as my first. I understood that replicating that first Camino to be nearly impossible. For me, it was the “Gold Standard”. All my other Spanish Caminos were fantastic & unique trails. In time, I discovered I didn’t look forward to going to Santiago, and found that the “journey” was more important than the “destination”. Because the destination, for me, had lost the wonder & luster of that first experience. I didn’t need any more than one Compostela. My happiest memories are triggered more from looking at & through the location sellos. Be brave & carry on my fellow Pilgrims!

CWBuff · Aug 18, 2023

Bradypus said:
The last figure I heard was 500 euro. I don't think inflation is quite that bad in Spain.

Sorry. You blinked between 1st post and THAT post

CWBuff · Aug 18, 2023

Marbe2 said:
My experience in 2015 affirmed my decision to book reservations ahead for my first camino. And now I do so always in high-seasons.
We walked in mid September 2015 from SJPdP. Perhaps it was a “wave” time? But there was No room in SJPdP. Overflow spaces to sleep were on floors somewhere in town. Orrison was totally booked by July. Zubiri albergues were full when we arrived. We Had To wait 45 minutes on line just to get coffee. Albergues in Uterga were full! Puente La Reina was full and folks were walking on to Manueru to stay. When we arrived in Logrono, turned out that the wine festival was occurring and there were no beds available in town.
St John de Ortega, Ages, were all full!

Sorry... wrong thread perhaps?

CWBuff · Aug 18, 2023

When I was planning my Camino pre-COVID all the indications were that an average Per Diem cost was about 20€. It could've swung either way based on a given Pilgrim's preference (i.e. supermarket lunches and communal kitchens vs Menu del Dias in cafes and bars and\or Donativo albergues vs private ones..., etc.) but anything I saw incl. some stuff on this Forum pointed to that figure.

When I finally walked (May-June 2022) it was already 35€ with many communal kitchens still being closed. That translates into a (gulp! ) 75% increase?!??! (I think... hope my math is right)

Now, according to OP it went up another 10€, which is 15.75% increase. Somehow I feel that it may jump yet again in the upcoming year and makes me wonder what exactly the future holds.....

.. Add to that the outrageously high air fares from anywhere in the world save for the Europe (and even with that I don't know how do the non-EU countries stack up) and this becomes a very expensive venture which is a shame...

Just sayin'

trecile · Aug 18, 2023

CWBuff said:
When I was planning my Camino pre-COVID all the indications were that an average Per Diem cost was about 20€.

That's quite a low figure. When I did my first Camino in 2016 it seemed that most people said 30€ per day.

Camino Chrissy · Aug 18, 2023

I spent an average of €25-30 per day on my first Camino in 2015 and stayed in nearly all albergues and ate pilgrim meals and del dias for dinner.

T0M · Aug 18, 2023

Perambulating Griffin said:
Thank you so very much for this.
The swinging of the censer is not a parlour trick.
When it is paid for, it is paid for as part of the desire of a group to make that offering outside of the usual ritual times because they have made heir pilgrimage to the Apostle when they were able, rather than for a particular holy day.
I suppose a group could arrange to pay for it to swing for no reason other than to gawp, but the price and the effort of arranging it suggest to me that those who pay for it do so with the specific, sacred intent in place.

I too would enjoy watching this; I view it as something of a gimmick.

Perambulating Griffin · Aug 18, 2023

T0M said:
I too would enjoy watching this; I view it as something of a gimmick.

It really is not a gimmick. It costs so much to swing because:

* the incense is expensive (to get a sense of how expensive, try buying some of the blend at the monastario gift ship — it’s about 12 euros for an ounce, and several pounds of it go in the censer).
*the 8 men who swing it have to be paid for their labour
*the silver thurible itself requires care and maintenance and safety inspections.
*there is an insurance cost to cover the use
*there is a maintenance and inspection cost for the rope and pulley mechanisms (required regularly in order to guarantee the safety of its continued use

It is magnificent because the Saint is *that important*.

People can go watch monster trucks if they just want to watch big things make smoke.

Bradypus · Aug 18, 2023

Perambulating Griffin said:
* the incense is expensive (to get a sense of how expensive, try buying some of the blend at the monastario gift ship — it’s about 12 euros for an ounce, and several pounds of it go in the censer).

Nowhere near that amount. A couple of large spoonfuls each time the Botafumeiro is used. A few ounces. Something I confirmed earlier today with a friend who has been the cathedral organist many times during the pilgrim mass. And something which can be seen on many Youtube videos. Also the price being charged for a small souvenir package in the cathedral gift shop is probably not the price that the cathedral pays for purchase in bulk.

If you look at this video about 10 seconds in you will see that the interior of the Botafumeiro houses a comparatively small firebowl and only a small quantity of incense is used. More than in a typical church thurible but certainly not "several pounds".

CWBuff · Aug 18, 2023

trecile said:
That's quite a low figure. When I did my first Camino in 2016 it seemed that most people said 30€ per day.

I cannot argue that - you've been at it much longer than I have.
All I can say is that IIRC, 20 was floating around. Even some of Efrem Gonzales' videos were around that figure...

No matter. I do believe we CAN agree on my observation that this is fast becoming an expensive venture esp. if one throws plane tix for a good measure (and then there are luggage transfers, horses to O'Cebreiro, massages every other day, a blissful rest in Parador Leon.... couple of days.... )
Oh and a Calle Laurel Tapas Crawl that can get out of hand FAST... YEAH

BoulderGT3 · Aug 18, 2023

I have a slightly different Frances slant than the OP. While I saw some moments blemished like boom box music at Alto de Perdo, the distractions were few and far between. Obviously, it gets busier after Sarria. Why would you not expect that?

This year, I found that about 30% of the people I chatted with on the Frances had done it before. Without exception, they all took their digs about how much "better it used to be". I find that equally ruins the moment as much as other things. It borders on rude.

CWBuff · Aug 18, 2023

Bradypus said:
Nowhere near that amount. A couple of large spoonfuls each time the Botafumeiro is used. A few ounces. Something I confirmed earlier today with a friend who has been the cathedral organist many times during the pilgrim mass. And something which can be seen on many Youtube videos. Also the price being charged for a small souvenir package in the cathedral gift shop is probably not the price that the cathedral pays for purchase in bulk.

If you look at this video about 10 seconds in you will see that the interior of the Botafumeiro houses a comparatively small firebowl and only a small quantity of incense is used. More than in a typical church thurible but certainly not "several pounds".

Not fully doubting what you are saying, however I have a 'problem' if you will with that video being used as a reference. The Cathedral is EMPTY! So, one can argue that for the purpose of filing this video when not as a part of service only 2 - and it looked to me more like a small ladle than a large spoon - were used.

Although anything is possible. first as you say it is being bought in bulk and then the majority of it goes into small 1oz packages in the gift shop

Ah.... semantics.... Money will be made the way money is made whether we agree or disagree here collectively on so many points....

...I did chuckled though on the fact that "Pilgrims vs Tourists" snuck in here ... even @trecile fallen victim of not being recognized as a "True full-blown Pilgrim"

Im thinking on start making T-Shirts ... something like that....LOL

Perambulating Griffin · Aug 18, 2023

Bradypus said:
Nowhere near that amount. A couple of large spoonfuls each time the Botafumeiro is used. A few ounces. Something I confirmed earlier today with a friend who has been the cathedral organist many times during the pilgrim mass. And something which can be seen on many Youtube videos. Also the price being charged for a small souvenir package in the cathedral gift shop is probably not the price that the cathedral pays for purchase in bulk.

If you look at this video about 10 seconds in you will see that the interior of the Botafumeiro houses a comparatively small firebowl and only a small quantity of incense is used. More than in a typical church thurible but certainly not "several pounds".

Good to know about the weight of the incense. One repeatedly reads from onlookers that it is *pounds* required to fill it. And of course I know that tourist cost won't be the bulk cost, *but* the point stands that incense is not cheap. And it isn't corner shop incense...
And the rest of the point remains. It's not a stupid parlour trick; it's a sacred rite of the mass in this particular cathedral, and it costs because it's a precious item rather precarious to use absent a whole host of precautions...

Bradypus · Aug 18, 2023

CWBuff said:
Not fully doubting what you are saying, however I have a 'problem' if you will with that video being used as a reference. The Cathedral is EMPTY! So, one can argue that for the purpose of filing this video when not as a part of service only 2 - and it looked to me more like a small ladle than a large spoon - were used.

Maybe this one will be more convincing then. During a visit from Pope Benedict. Definitely not empty that day. And still a fairly modest dose of incense.

Mananath · Aug 18, 2023

K_Lynn said:
I was just about to post that! I have cleverly scheduled my upcoming Camino to coincide with All Saints Day on November 1. I was very disappointed to learn in '21 that they no longer swung the botafumeiro every day and I am determined to see it!

It's well worth it. Last year I attended 7 masses and never saw it. This year at my 4th (and final) mass it swung and it was everything I hoped it would be. Good luck!

HappyValerie · Aug 18, 2023

Camino Chrissy said:
Only if they send a suitcase or duffle bag ahead of time to Santiago before they start their Camino, or do a little shopping after they arrive.

Check out their footwear. Usually a give away.

timr · Aug 19, 2023

Bradypus said:
Maybe this one will be more convincing then. During a visit from Pope Benedict. Definitely not empty that day. And still a fairly modest dose of incense.

Perambulating Griffin said:
It really is not a gimmick. It costs so much to swing because:

* the incense is expensive (to get a sense of how expensive, try buying some of the blend at the monastario gift ship — it’s about 12 euros for an ounce, and several pounds of it go in the censer).

I shy away from topics which show even the slightest tendency to become contentious.

Usually.

But I can speak from personal experience on the single detail of how much incense goes into the botafumeiro.

I am a Catholic priest and always concelebrate at the pilgrim Mass when I reach Santiago. The number of concelebrants (these are priests who participate equally with the main celebrant - often a visiting bishop or else the Dean of the cathedral) varies considerably. Sometimes there are just two or three, sometimes 20.

I have concelebrated at least six or eight times when the botafumeiro has been used. On three of four times (I don't keep records) I have been one of those invited to add incense to the botafumeiro before it is swung. My walking-companion-nephew thought this was 'hypercool'. These are usually the main celebrant and two others. The amount of incense used is about 3 teaspoons full, at most 6. Not 'pounds'. It is about the same amount that would be used at a parish church in UK for a funeral for instance. The whole thing takes less then ten minutes. A little goes a long way.

Looking back on a well known online mail order site i can see that I bought 500g of high quality liturgical incense in 2019 for £21.58. That is 4.3 pence for a gram (That is about 5 cents of a Euro). You would imagine there would be a discount for bulk purchase.

Whatever the cost of 'flying' the botafumeiro is, the cost of incense is quite insignificant.

The price today is below £20 for 500g from the makers https://www.prinknashabbey.org/prinknash-incense but if you buy direct, you will have to add in postage!

Perambulating Griffin · Aug 19, 2023

timr said:
I shy away from topics which show even the slightest tendency to become contentious.

Usually.

But I can speak from personal experience on the single topic of how much incense goes into the botafumeiro.

I am a Catholic priest and always concelebrate at the pilgrim Mass when I reach Santiago. The number of concelebrants (these are priests who participate equally with the main celebrant - often a visiting bishop or else the Dean of the cathedral) varies considerably. Sometimes there are just two or three, sometimes 20.

I have concelebrated at least six or eight times when the botfumeiro has been used. On three of four time (I don't keep records) I have been one of those invited to add incense to the botafumeiro before it is swung. My nephew thought this was 'hypercool'. These are usually the main celebrant and two others. The amount of incense used is about 3 teaspoons full, at most 6. Not 'pounds'. It is about the same amount that would be used at a parish church in UK for a funeral for instance. The whole thing takes less then ten minutes. A little goes a long way.

Looking back on a well known online mail order site i can see that I bought 500g of high quality liturgical incense in 2019 for £21.58. That is 4.3 pence for a gram (That is about 5 cents of a Euro). You would imagine there would be a discount for bulk purchase.

Whatever the cost of 'flying' the botafumeiro is, the cost of incense is quite insignificant.

The price today is below £20 for 500g from the makers https://www.prinknashabbey.org/prinknash-incense but if you buy direct, you will have to add in postage!

Thank you for the precise information, first hand.

In the grand scheme, I don't think that the incense changes the picture much. I'm just annoyed by people who seem to think it is an egregious money-grab for a parlour trick. And I dislike hearing it disparaged as a gimmick, even if one wishes to go see the "gimmick".

I am quite certain that the thurible is *that large* because the surrounding architecture is *that large*... and there are complementary reasons for the size of the cathedral (which began modestly enough as a small sacred site). The museum itself explains that the early structures quickly became too small for the multitudes who sought to visit the sacred remains of one of the most significant of the Apostles. So... Santiago's importance + the strong and popular desire of the original visitors to find a place at the alter, so to speak.

As the RC online publication Aliteia reminds us, a regular-sized censer would be lost in a cathedral of that size. (https://aleteia.org/2018/11/27/the-...er-so-large-it-needs-a-whole-church-to-swing/)

Pathfinder075 · Aug 19, 2023

norfolk-keith said:
Greetings fellow pilgrims

I'm just back from completing my 5th and final Camino and this time as I had always promised myself was to finish in Finistere.
I wanted to take this opportunity to share, my thoughts and findings from my journey.

First of all I would like to cover the cost of walking the whole Camino compared to the past 4, you will find varying thoughts and experiences regarding cost per day from experienced pilgrims but in general in the past you would find 35euros per day would get you an albergue for the night (10E), a pilgrim meal (10E) and that would leave you 15E to buy breakfast, coffee and snacks through the day which was more than enough, however it has changed quite considerably in 2023. Apart from the Municipal albergue which have always tried to keep their prices low the average price for a night can range between 14-16Euros for a bed, a pilgrims meal 12-14euros which leaves you approximately 5Euros for breakfast, coffees, snacks throughout the day. Realistically the daily rate has increased to a minimum of about 45Euros per day and believe me when I tell you the cost increases the closer you get to Sarria.

Next is the behaviour of pilgrims on the trail. Frequently I found pilgrims playing loud music, talking in a loud volume and generally being disrespectful to other pilgrims, so I'm hoping if you are about to to walk the Camino please take this on board, there is an etiquette when walking the trail which includes, respect, politeness, space with due care and attention for other pilgrims but also the Spanish people in the small towns and villages.

My last point I would like to raise is regarding the Botafumeiro. Pilgrims are going to be extremely disappointed when they attend the service at the cathedral expecting to see the magnificent display of the Botafumeiro swinging through the cathedral as it has done for many many many years only to find the cathedral has stopped doing it, the bishops office explained to us that it is now a "Pay to View" service that will cost you 500 Euros to see, the cathedral will only do it for free for the 4 main religious events of the calendar year eg: Easter/Christmas.

I can appreciate the church needs to raise funds to help support for the upkeep, repair and general running costs, but what I did notice was the vast increase in the number of tourists almost taking over the city, pilgrims are still visible but grossly outnumbered by tourists, compared to the first time 2015 when I walked into Cathedral square and felt a real humbleness and sense of belief and faith, now it's geared to commercialism of the tourists and less about the pilgrims.

I hope you find this useful in planning your future for the Camino, I wish you well and a safe journey.
Buen Camino
Keith (england)

It's as expensive or as cheap as you want it to be. If you eat food in restaurants for all meals then it will be expensive. if you stay in private albergues or hotels, it will be expensive. It never was cheap for those options.

If you self cater, use a tent, live frugally, then 20-25 euros a day is more than possible. I walked in 2015 and 2016 and was doing about 15-17 euros a day without any issue, including 3 healthy meals a day.

So badly behaved pilgrims are expected. People tend to lack manners and good sense, so if it spills on to the camino are you really surprised? At least we don't have those zombies you find in Nottingham and Manchester to deal with yet. Be thankful of those things. On my first camino myself and the dorm I was in at Sarria (convent albergue on the hill) had to deal with 20 school kids aged around 14. There teacher decided for some dumb reason that these kids should go out and drink much alcohol. It was absolute mayhem. Eventually some guy snapped and went ballistic (in English), put the fear of God into them, I seriously thought he was going to drag them out and give them a good pasting. Talked about throwing them all out and calling the police. That was what it took for them all to shut up. After that incident (one of many on that session), nothing surprises me when I go to Spain (and why i will never walk through Sarria ever again). Ear plugs or selective hearing are your best tools for dealing with noise, or a good set of mp3's to listen to.

As for the botafumeiro, have you ever seen it swing? If not, well it's worth seeing. But if you have seen it swing, then not seeing it swing is irrelevant. it swings the same way pretty much each time. I don't go to mass to see it swing, I go to mass to do church/pilgrim related things.

MPF · Aug 19, 2023

norfolk-keith said:
Greetings fellow pilgrims

I'm just back from completing my 5th and final Camino and this time as I had always promised myself was to finish in Finistere.
I wanted to take this opportunity to share, my thoughts and findings from my journey.

First of all I would like to cover the cost of walking the whole Camino compared to the past 4, you will find varying thoughts and experiences regarding cost per day from experienced pilgrims but in general in the past you would find 35euros per day would get you an albergue for the night (10E), a pilgrim meal (10E) and that would leave you 15E to buy breakfast, coffee and snacks through the day which was more than enough, however it has changed quite considerably in 2023. Apart from the Municipal albergue which have always tried to keep their prices low the average price for a night can range between 14-16Euros for a bed, a pilgrims meal 12-14euros which leaves you approximately 5Euros for breakfast, coffees, snacks throughout the day. Realistically the daily rate has increased to a minimum of about 45Euros per day and believe me when I tell you the cost increases the closer you get to Sarria.

Next is the behaviour of pilgrims on the trail. Frequently I found pilgrims playing loud music, talking in a loud volume and generally being disrespectful to other pilgrims, so I'm hoping if you are about to to walk the Camino please take this on board, there is an etiquette when walking the trail which includes, respect, politeness, space with due care and attention for other pilgrims but also the Spanish people in the small towns and villages.

My last point I would like to raise is regarding the Botafumeiro. Pilgrims are going to be extremely disappointed when they attend the service at the cathedral expecting to see the magnificent display of the Botafumeiro swinging through the cathedral as it has done for many many many years only to find the cathedral has stopped doing it, the bishops office explained to us that it is now a "Pay to View" service that will cost you 500 Euros to see, the cathedral will only do it for free for the 4 main religious events of the calendar year eg: Easter/Christmas.

I can appreciate the church needs to raise funds to help support for the upkeep, repair and general running costs, but what I did notice was the vast increase in the number of tourists almost taking over the city, pilgrims are still visible but grossly outnumbered by tourists, compared to the first time 2015 when I walked into Cathedral square and felt a real humbleness and sense of belief and faith, now it's geared to commercialism of the tourists and less about the pilgrims.

I hope you find this useful in planning your future for the Camino, I wish you well and a safe journey.
Buen Camino
Keith (england)

Thank you for posting this. Staring my first in October and this helps.

T0M · Aug 19, 2023

Bradypus said:
Nowhere near that amount. A couple of large spoonfuls each time the Botafumeiro is used. A few ounces. Something I confirmed earlier today with a friend who has been the cathedral organist many times during the pilgrim mass. And something which can be seen on many Youtube videos. Also the price being charged for a small souvenir package in the cathedral gift shop is probably not the price that the cathedral pays for purchase in bulk.

If you look at this video about 10 seconds in you will see that the interior of the Botafumeiro houses a comparatively small firebowl and only a small quantity of incense is used. More than in a typical church thurible but certainly not "several pounds".

I see no smoke... as if too much incense smothered the embers.

LTfit · Aug 19, 2023

Kathar1na said:
The Cathedral points out that the flight of the Botafumeiro is an ofrenda (an offering to the Apostle) that pilgrims and tourists make. When you attend a mass, online or in real life, where a parish group or a similar group makes such an offering, you will see that a member of the group proceeds to the altar and reads out such an offering to the Apostle - this does not happen often. Most of the time, it just swings at the end of mass without visible participation of the donor(s).

Interesting. Now I understand why this happened during the 12:00 mass on July 11th of this year.

Although it's usually hit or miss (my first time was during Holy Year 2010), I've actually seen it swing everytime I've arrived in Santiago. I believe this year made it 16 times?!

Peterexpatkiwi · Aug 19, 2023

Well, this thread goes all over the show! Thanks @norfolk-keith for your original post, I echo those who hope that you get to walk the Camino again...
My experience is limited - only two short Caminos to date, but my 2 cent's -
Re: pilgrim behaviour - again I pretty much echo others here, it's a reflection of what I see in my daily life. NZ, Germany, Norway or Spain, the younger generation like their music - and sharing it with everyone! ( Perhaps I was the same once? My memory is selective!). And the younger generation often seem rowdy to the older generation.. I don't appreciate it, but often, it's actually the locals - I'm the visitor here! All I can do is get away from them.

Increasing costs? A worldwide phenomenon. Anyone looked at house prices lately?

CWBuff said:
Add to that the outrageously high air fares from anywhere in the world save for the Europe (and even with that I don't know how do the non-EU countries stack up) and this becomes a very expensive venture which is a shame...

Actually, they're not outrageously high. When I first left New Zealand a flight to Australia cost me nearly 2 weeks wages.
It's a heck of a lot cheaper now! Yes, prices have risen substantially post corona, frankly I'll be astonished if they don't go higher still. Yes, it's shame for those of us who have to travel from afar to experience the beauty of the Camino. But we don't HAVE to do it, we WANT to do it.
For my parents - in their youth a world trip was a once in a lifetime experience. Often for the privileged. My generation - if you wanted to do it, you went. Yes, you might have to sacrifice and save for a few years, but for most it's doable. Personally, I have no qualifications, work average job's for average money, and have travelled extensively over the years. I was unaware of the hidden costs at the time. Now that I'm more aware, I think it's only fair that I pay accordingly - or seek other alternatives. NZ - Te Aroha. USA - PCT etc.
It's about time costs increased .

Greg Petropoulos said:
In time, I discovered I didn’t look forward to going to Santiago, and found that the “journey” was more important than the “destination”. Because the destination, for me, had lost the wonder & luster of that first experience. I didn’t need any more than one Compostela.

Thats already happened to me. Didn't bother getting my second Compostela. I have no need for it. Nor do I need to see the Botafumeo swung. I appreciate this is very individual.
I experienced the Camino Blues at the end of my very first Camino. And my second.( see the superb post from @andonius ).
For me, it's about the journey -
The Way

TravellingMan22 · Aug 19, 2023

Peterexpatkiwi said:
Well, this thread goes all over the show! Thanks @norfolk-keith for your original post, I echo those who hope that you get to walk the Camino again...
My experience is limited - only two short Caminos to date, but my 2 cent's -
Re: pilgrim behaviour - again I pretty much echo others here, it's a reflection of what I see in my daily life. NZ, Germany, Norway or Spain, the younger generation like their music - and sharing it with everyone! ( Perhaps I was the same once? My memory is selective!). And the younger generation often seem rowdy to the older generation.. I don't appreciate it, but often, it's actually the locals - I'm the visitor here! All I can do is get away from them.

Increasing costs? A worldwide phenomenon. Anyone looked at house prices lately?

Actually, they're not outrageously high. When I first left New Zealand a flight to Australia cost me nearly 2 weeks wages.
It's a heck of a lot cheaper now! Yes, prices have risen substantially post corona, frankly I'll be astonished if they don't go higher still. Yes, it's shame for those of us who have to travel from afar to experience the beauty of the Camino. But we don't HAVE to do it, we WANT to do it.
For my parents - in their youth a world trip was a once in a lifetime experience. Often for the privileged. My generation - if you wanted to do it, you went. Yes, you might have to sacrifice and save for a few years, but for most it's doable. Personally, I have no qualifications, work average job's for average money, and have travelled extensively over the years. I was unaware of the hidden costs at the time. Now that I'm more aware, I think it's only fair that I pay accordingly - or seek other alternatives. NZ - Te Aroha. USA - PCT etc.
It's about time costs increased .

Thats already happened to me. Didn't bother getting my second Compostela. I have no need for it. Nor do I need to see the Botafumeo swung. I appreciate this is very individual.
I experienced the Camino Blues at the end of my very first Camino. And my second.( see the superb post from @andonius ).
For me, it's about the journey -
The Way

Read an article recently (source:the local*) reporting that Spain is the noisiest country in the world (sharing the distinction with Japan). Much of this measurement is based on the spoken word, but of course so many layers..love of late nights, of large groups, etc. 10% of Spanish population have a hearing problem and the majority don’t wear a hearing aid. I guess the louder you talk, the louder the music is going to be! The noisiest is Vigo, with A Coruna, Logrono and Leon in top 10.

Yes airline fares are hugely cheaper than back in the day when flying was the preserve of the rich and famous. They are actually cheaper but also there are far fewer restrictions (Saturday night stays), of course the internet, given the customer the ability to be able to search pretty much any journey via any midpoint.

They seem to be a fair bit higher since Covid. Capacity for example is hugely down on flights from Europe to SE Asia which will hugely impact customers in NZ and OZ. The issue of flying over Russian airspace is a big deal too. Demand has come back more quickly than airlines expected and it will take a while for things to smooth out and we will see what happens next.

*The article is behind a paywall and not sure if this is allowed but thelocal is a phenomenal guide to life in Spain (and other European countries) / subscription is great value.

https://www.thelocal.es/

Bradypus · Aug 19, 2023

TravellingMan22 said:
Yes airline fares are hugely cheaper than back in the day when flying was the preserve of the rich and famous.

In 1989 my wife and I flew from the UK to India and paid £400 for a return flight. A bargain at the time. Just looked online and I could still book the same flights now for about £400. But if you adjust for inflation that earlier journey would be closer to £1100 at 2023 prices. In real terms long-haul air travel is far less expensive than it was in fairly recent memory despite the price hikes of the past couple of years.

TravellingMan22 · Aug 19, 2023

Bradypus said:
In 1989 my wife and I flew from the UK to India and paid £400 for a return flight. A bargain at the time. Just looked online and I could still book the same flights now for about £400. But if you adjust for inflation that earlier journey would be closer to £1100 at 2023 prices. In real terms long-haul air travel is far less expensive than it was in fairly recent memory despite the price hikes of the past couple of years.

Indeed absolutely right, and fares of yesteryear weee governed by advance purchase restrictions and also minimum stay restriction! To get a cheap intra European return fare you had to be pretty much staying a Saturday night!

David Tallan · Aug 19, 2023

norfolk-keith said:
I did notice was the vast increase in the number of tourists almost taking over the city, pilgrims are still visible but grossly outnumbered by tourists, compared to the first time 2015 when I walked into Cathedral square and felt a real humbleness and sense of belief and faith, now it's geared to commercialism of the tourists and less about the pilgrims.

This is not entirely new. I think it has always been the case that the vast majority of visitors to the city have not walked to get there.

With the 400,000+ pilgrims each year that visit Santiago now, we are not nearly so outnumbered by other visitors as we were on my first Camino in 1989. And the city has always known it is a "destination" city, and had plenty of souvenir shops and commerce aimed at visitors.

I think it is less about changes in Santiago and more about changes in what you notice and pay attention to.

Peri Ireland · Aug 19, 2023

trecile said:
I don't know if there ever was a time when they swung the Botafumeiro every day. It could have seemed that it did if you were in Santiago during a busy time when lots of groups paid for it.
Perhaps someone like @t2andreo knows.

I was fortunate enough to visit the cathedral twice on my first camino 10years I saw the Botafumeiro swung twice. Amazing ! At the pilgrims Mass and the follow evening at the Saturday evening Mass. it was very special as one of my friends and fellow pilgrim was a priest and he was allowed to concelebrate Mass. Great memories.
Returning again in September for my 5th camino and hoping to finish in Finistere.

Peri
Ireland

Elainesnider · Aug 19, 2023

grayland said:
Thank you for a thoughtful post.

Definitely worth contemplating I am beginning my first Camino from St. John to Santiago

KWay · Aug 19, 2023

I didn’t not notice any bad behavior on the Camino Portuguese (May 2023). We are planning to do another route next spring, and this is the reason I hesitate to consider the Frances. Plenty of other routes to consider.

gns · Aug 19, 2023

Interesting thread.

When I walked in in August 2022 it felt strange as the square was full of tourists and there were few pilgrims relative to a normal year. On previous Caminos the numbers have varied according to the time of year, day of the week and time of day and of course weather (the busiest was a Saturday morning in October). I have to say I don't think it ever affected the quality of the experience of arriving. If it bothers you then walk close the previous day and start early in the morning. I think most tourists are still at breakfast at 8 am.

I am a heretic on the Botafumeiro I am afraid. Each of the six times I have walked into Santiago I have attended the mass in the cathedral (not always the pilgrim mass and once in Galician) as a moment of reflection on the end of the Camino. On two occasions the Botafumeira was swung and I found that this changed the mood and broke the spell, leading me to leave as quickly as possible.

JabbaPapa · Aug 19, 2023

gns said:
Interesting thread.

When I walked in in August 2022 it felt strange as the square was full of tourists and there were few pilgrims relative to a normal year.

Bearing in mind that the great majority of pilgrims to the Cathedral travel there by motor transport, and that there are also great numbers of non-pilgrim tourists visiting the city in tourist season, I'd say that the tourist : pilgrim ratio is higher than it's ever been.

It felt more crowded last year than ever -- though of course it's hard to tell at a glance which of the motor-transported were pilgrims and which not. Similar in Fátima to a degree, except in the environs of the Basilica.

Thing at Santiago is that the Cathedral is a far more integrally enclaved part of the City than for example the Cathedrals at Fátima, Lourdes, Rome, Chartres, Montserrat, and so on.

The Pilgrim : Tourist ratio at Santiago is more like the one near Notre Dame de Paris.

katevos · Aug 19, 2023

norfolk-keith said:
Greetings fellow pilgrims

I'm just back from completing my 5th and final Camino and this time as I had always promised myself was to finish in Finistere.
I wanted to take this opportunity to share, my thoughts and findings from my journey.

First of all I would like to cover the cost of walking the whole Camino compared to the past 4, you will find varying thoughts and experiences regarding cost per day from experienced pilgrims but in general in the past you would find 35euros per day would get you an albergue for the night (10E), a pilgrim meal (10E) and that would leave you 15E to buy breakfast, coffee and snacks through the day which was more than enough, however it has changed quite considerably in 2023. Apart from the Municipal albergue which have always tried to keep their prices low the average price for a night can range between 14-16Euros for a bed, a pilgrims meal 12-14euros which leaves you approximately 5Euros for breakfast, coffees, snacks throughout the day. Realistically the daily rate has increased to a minimum of about 45Euros per day and believe me when I tell you the cost increases the closer you get to Sarria.

Next is the behaviour of pilgrims on the trail. Frequently I found pilgrims playing loud music, talking in a loud volume and generally being disrespectful to other pilgrims, so I'm hoping if you are about to to walk the Camino please take this on board, there is an etiquette when walking the trail which includes, respect, politeness, space with due care and attention for other pilgrims but also the Spanish people in the small towns and villages.

My last point I would like to raise is regarding the Botafumeiro. Pilgrims are going to be extremely disappointed when they attend the service at the cathedral expecting to see the magnificent display of the Botafumeiro swinging through the cathedral as it has done for many many many years only to find the cathedral has stopped doing it, the bishops office explained to us that it is now a "Pay to View" service that will cost you 500 Euros to see, the cathedral will only do it for free for the 4 main religious events of the calendar year eg: Easter/Christmas.

I can appreciate the church needs to raise funds to help support for the upkeep, repair and general running costs, but what I did notice was the vast increase in the number of tourists almost taking over the city, pilgrims are still visible but grossly outnumbered by tourists, compared to the first time 2015 when I walked into Cathedral square and felt a real humbleness and sense of belief and faith, now it's geared to commercialism of the tourists and less about the pilgrims.

I hope you find this useful in planning your future for the Camino, I wish you well and a safe journey.
Buen Camino
Keith (england)

Makes me sad

Canche · Aug 19, 2023

norfolk-keith said:
Greetings fellow pilgrims

I'm just back from completing my 5th and final Camino and this time as I had always promised myself was to finish in Finistere.
I wanted to take this opportunity to share, my thoughts and findings from my journey.

First of all I would like to cover the cost of walking the whole Camino compared to the past 4, you will find varying thoughts and experiences regarding cost per day from experienced pilgrims but in general in the past you would find 35euros per day would get you an albergue for the night (10E), a pilgrim meal (10E) and that would leave you 15E to buy breakfast, coffee and snacks through the day which was more than enough, however it has changed quite considerably in 2023. Apart from the Municipal albergue which have always tried to keep their prices low the average price for a night can range between 14-16Euros for a bed, a pilgrims meal 12-14euros which leaves you approximately 5Euros for breakfast, coffees, snacks throughout the day. Realistically the daily rate has increased to a minimum of about 45Euros per day and believe me when I tell you the cost increases the closer you get to Sarria.

Next is the behaviour of pilgrims on the trail. Frequently I found pilgrims playing loud music, talking in a loud volume and generally being disrespectful to other pilgrims, so I'm hoping if you are about to to walk the Camino please take this on board, there is an etiquette when walking the trail which includes, respect, politeness, space with due care and attention for other pilgrims but also the Spanish people in the small towns and villages.

My last point I would like to raise is regarding the Botafumeiro. Pilgrims are going to be extremely disappointed when they attend the service at the cathedral expecting to see the magnificent display of the Botafumeiro swinging through the cathedral as it has done for many many many years only to find the cathedral has stopped doing it, the bishops office explained to us that it is now a "Pay to View" service that will cost you 500 Euros to see, the cathedral will only do it for free for the 4 main religious events of the calendar year eg: Easter/Christmas.

I can appreciate the church needs to raise funds to help support for the upkeep, repair and general running costs, but what I did notice was the vast increase in the number of tourists almost taking over the city, pilgrims are still visible but grossly outnumbered by tourists, compared to the first time 2015 when I walked into Cathedral square and felt a real humbleness and sense of belief and faith, now it's geared to commercialism of the tourists and less about the pilgrims.

I hope you find this useful in planning your future for the Camino, I wish you well and a safe journey.
Buen Camino
Keith (england)

Wow! I've never had that experience at the Catheral. Evertime I have gone, except Sunday, the butafumeiro has swung including last year, 2021 and 2016

JabbaPapa · Aug 19, 2023

Canche said:
Wow! I've never had that experience at the Catheral. Evertime I have gone, except Sunday, the butafumeiro has swung including last year, 2021 and 2016

Me ? 1993 yes, 1994 yes, 2005 no, 2014 no, 2022 yes.

ukjohn99 · Aug 20, 2023

norfolk-keith said:
Greetings fellow pilgrims

I'm just back from completing my 5th and final Camino and this time as I had always promised myself was to finish in Finistere.
I wanted to take this opportunity to share, my thoughts and findings from my journey.

First of all I would like to cover the cost of walking the whole Camino compared to the past 4, you will find varying thoughts and experiences regarding cost per day from experienced pilgrims but in general in the past you would find 35euros per day would get you an albergue for the night (10E), a pilgrim meal (10E) and that would leave you 15E to buy breakfast, coffee and snacks through the day which was more than enough, however it has changed quite considerably in 2023. Apart from the Municipal albergue which have always tried to keep their prices low the average price for a night can range between 14-16Euros for a bed, a pilgrims meal 12-14euros which leaves you approximately 5Euros for breakfast, coffees, snacks throughout the day. Realistically the daily rate has increased to a minimum of about 45Euros per day and believe me when I tell you the cost increases the closer you get to Sarria.

Next is the behaviour of pilgrims on the trail. Frequently I found pilgrims playing loud music, talking in a loud volume and generally being disrespectful to other pilgrims, so I'm hoping if you are about to to walk the Camino please take this on board, there is an etiquette when walking the trail which includes, respect, politeness, space with due care and attention for other pilgrims but also the Spanish people in the small towns and villages.

My last point I would like to raise is regarding the Botafumeiro. Pilgrims are going to be extremely disappointed when they attend the service at the cathedral expecting to see the magnificent display of the Botafumeiro swinging through the cathedral as it has done for many many many years only to find the cathedral has stopped doing it, the bishops office explained to us that it is now a "Pay to View" service that will cost you 500 Euros to see, the cathedral will only do it for free for the 4 main religious events of the calendar year eg: Easter/Christmas.

I can appreciate the church needs to raise funds to help support for the upkeep, repair and general running costs, but what I did notice was the vast increase in the number of tourists almost taking over the city, pilgrims are still visible but grossly outnumbered by tourists, compared to the first time 2015 when I walked into Cathedral square and felt a real humbleness and sense of belief and faith, now it's geared to commercialism of the tourists and less about the pilgrims.

I hope you find this useful in planning your future for the Camino, I wish you well and a safe journey.
Buen Camino
Keith (england)

It was very helpful, thank you. I walked the Camino Frances in 2009. Then, there were no smart phones to speak of, I walked amiably for most of the time with friends that I made on the way, chatting as we went. I am considering walking a Camino again but wonder about people continually sharing the experience via social web sites rather than just enjoying the experience and interacting with people and the surroundings. How do Albergues manage all the smart phones being charged at night? Thank again for your report.

Bradypus · Aug 20, 2023

ukjohn99 said:
How do Albergues manage all the smart phones being charged at night?

Depends on the albergue. Many have power sockets or usb charging ports for each bed. Others are very short of power points and you may not have access to one whenever you wish.

grayland · Aug 20, 2023

After walking the CF (in 2010..I think) we worked in the Pilgrim office for a couple of weeks.
We saw the Botafumeiro swing almost every day. I know several pilgrim groups sponsored it on different days including the American Pilgrim group. I am not sure if the Santiago business group was involved at that time.

Actually, I think that I have been lucky to see it on each of my arrivals in Santiago including 2015 when I walked the Primitivo with my grandsons.

No particular planning on my part..just luck.

BoulderGT3 · Aug 20, 2023

grayland said:
After walking the CF (in 2010..I think) we worked in the Pilgrim office for a couple of weeks.
We saw the Botafumeiro swing almost every day. I know several pilgrim groups sponsored it on different days including the American Pilgrim group. I am not sure if the Santiago business group was involved at that time.

Actually, I think that I have been lucky to see it on each of my arrivals in Santiago including 2015 when I walked the Primitivo with my grandsons.

No particular planning on my part..just luck.

I can't imagine how fantastic that was for you and your grandsons. Bravo!

I've seen it swing as well. I could care less if patrons support it. Good for them and good for the support of the Cathedral.

veronicamc · Aug 20, 2023

norfolk-keith said:
Greetings fellow pilgrims

I'm just back from completing my 5th and final Camino and this time as I had always promised myself was to finish in Finistere.
I wanted to take this opportunity to share, my thoughts and findings from my journey.

First of all I would like to cover the cost of walking the whole Camino compared to the past 4, you will find varying thoughts and experiences regarding cost per day from experienced pilgrims but in general in the past you would find 35euros per day would get you an albergue for the night (10E), a pilgrim meal (10E) and that would leave you 15E to buy breakfast, coffee and snacks through the day which was more than enough, however it has changed quite considerably in 2023. Apart from the Municipal albergue which have always tried to keep their prices low the average price for a night can range between 14-16Euros for a bed, a pilgrims meal 12-14euros which leaves you approximately 5Euros for breakfast, coffees, snacks throughout the day. Realistically the daily rate has increased to a minimum of about 45Euros per day and believe me when I tell you the cost increases the closer you get to Sarria.

Next is the behaviour of pilgrims on the trail. Frequently I found pilgrims playing loud music, talking in a loud volume and generally being disrespectful to other pilgrims, so I'm hoping if you are about to to walk the Camino please take this on board, there is an etiquette when walking the trail which includes, respect, politeness, space with due care and attention for other pilgrims but also the Spanish people in the small towns and villages.

My last point I would like to raise is regarding the Botafumeiro. Pilgrims are going to be extremely disappointed when they attend the service at the cathedral expecting to see the magnificent display of the Botafumeiro swinging through the cathedral as it has done for many many many years only to find the cathedral has stopped doing it, the bishops office explained to us that it is now a "Pay to View" service that will cost you 500 Euros to see, the cathedral will only do it for free for the 4 main religious events of the calendar year eg: Easter/Christmas.

I can appreciate the church needs to raise funds to help support for the upkeep, repair and general running costs, but what I did notice was the vast increase in the number of tourists almost taking over the city, pilgrims are still visible but grossly outnumbered by tourists, compared to the first time 2015 when I walked into Cathedral square and felt a real humbleness and sense of belief and faith, now it's geared to commercialism of the tourists and less about the pilgrims.

I hope you find this useful in planning your future for the Camino, I wish you well and a safe journey.
Buen Camino
Keith (england)

We walked the Senda Litoral and were in SdC 15/16 June this year. At the 9.30am mass the Botafumeiro was swung. No charges. There was no special day at that time. The man in the door told me it would also be swung at the 12pm mass. So I don’t understand why the office would have said that it cost 500 Euros

Bradypus · Aug 20, 2023

veronicamc said:
No charges. There was no special day at that time. The man in the door told me it would also be swung at the 12pm mass. So I don’t understand why the office would have said that it cost 500 Euros

If it was used on a day which is not on the cathedral list of festivals then someone will already have paid specially for it to happen. In the summer months there are many large groups visiting the cathedral and the organisers often pay the fee to the cathedral to ensure their visitors see the Botafumeiro in use. Of course anyone else present at the mass that day also gets to share the experience free of charge.

grayland · Aug 20, 2023

Just to be clear....Those attending mass on a day when the Botafumeiro is in use are never asked to pay anything to enter the cathedral. The payment discussed above is negotiated ahead of time with the proper authorities and paid by the sponsoring group.

Individuals are not asked to pay anything for watching the Botafumeiro.

Trekker One · Aug 21, 2023

Prior to our fall 2018 Primitivo Camino my wife and I had always walked late March and early April which until recent history wasn't busy at all.
When the Primitivo route intersected with the Frances route at Melide we were a little shocked at the numbers on the Frances route. Literally a dust cloud on parts of the trail. It was a bit of a shock after days of tranquility on the Primitivo. We also witnessed some boorish behavior at times such as bluetooth speakers on pack packs blasting out music.
We solved much of this problem for the remaining days to Santiago by starting at 6 to 6:30 each morning
Seemed that the 'Camino 'party animals' weren't early risers in most cases. We were done walking before the party started on the trail.
As with most things, whether you get upset when things aren't to your liking is under your control as how you react.
I think many of the trail party animals were local people, so as a foreigner visiting their country I am hardly going to scold them on trail etiquette.
Live and let live.

kuhawkhead · Aug 22, 2023

norfolk-keith said:
Greetings fellow pilgrims

I'm just back from completing my 5th and final Camino and this time as I had always promised myself was to finish in Finistere.
I wanted to take this opportunity to share, my thoughts and findings from my journey.

First of all I would like to cover the cost of walking the whole Camino compared to the past 4, you will find varying thoughts and experiences regarding cost per day from experienced pilgrims but in general in the past you would find 35euros per day would get you an albergue for the night (10E), a pilgrim meal (10E) and that would leave you 15E to buy breakfast, coffee and snacks through the day which was more than enough, however it has changed quite considerably in 2023. Apart from the Municipal albergue which have always tried to keep their prices low the average price for a night can range between 14-16Euros for a bed, a pilgrims meal 12-14euros which leaves you approximately 5Euros for breakfast, coffees, snacks throughout the day. Realistically the daily rate has increased to a minimum of about 45Euros per day and believe me when I tell you the cost increases the closer you get to Sarria.

Next is the behaviour of pilgrims on the trail. Frequently I found pilgrims playing loud music, talking in a loud volume and generally being disrespectful to other pilgrims, so I'm hoping if you are about to to walk the Camino please take this on board, there is an etiquette when walking the trail which includes, respect, politeness, space with due care and attention for other pilgrims but also the Spanish people in the small towns and villages.

My last point I would like to raise is regarding the Botafumeiro. Pilgrims are going to be extremely disappointed when they attend the service at the cathedral expecting to see the magnificent display of the Botafumeiro swinging through the cathedral as it has done for many many many years only to find the cathedral has stopped doing it, the bishops office explained to us that it is now a "Pay to View" service that will cost you 500 Euros to see, the cathedral will only do it for free for the 4 main religious events of the calendar year eg: Easter/Christmas.

I can appreciate the church needs to raise funds to help support for the upkeep, repair and general running costs, but what I did notice was the vast increase in the number of tourists almost taking over the city, pilgrims are still visible but grossly outnumbered by tourists, compared to the first time 2015 when I walked into Cathedral square and felt a real humbleness and sense of belief and faith, now it's geared to commercialism of the tourists and less about the pilgrims.

I hope you find this useful in planning your future for the Camino, I wish you well and a safe journey.
Buen Camino
Keith (england)

This is a great post and is very well written. I’ve yet to do a Camino, but I see it as a very individualistic journey that as a fellow pilgrim, I just would not have the right to do anything to interrupt it for another pilgrim.

I’ve friends in Scotland that talked about the increase in tourism and trash and just rude, horrific behavior after the popularity of Outlander and post Covid with people watching the “Driving the North Coast 500” videos for hours on end. The Camino becoming so popular and trending on YouTube has popularized it even more.

Canche · Aug 23, 2023

I think you will find that most of that rude behavior and increased tourism is on the Camino Frances. There are many other Caminos, even more beautiful, that do not have those problems. I recommend the Norte, the San Salvador, Primitivo and Invierno.

thejoker · Aug 25, 2023

grayland said:
Just to be clear....Those attending mass on a day when the Botafumeiro is in use are never asked to pay anything to enter the cathedral. The payment discussed above is negotiated ahead of time with the proper authorities and paid by the sponsoring group.

Individuals are not asked to pay anything for watching the Botafumeiro.

Absolutely right. Nobody pays for Mass with the Botafumeiro as nobody knows if it will swing, unless told by someone in the group who paid for it.
The Botafumeiro swung at the 12 o' clock Mass today. Thanks to the large group of uniformed Jaen pilgrims, who also shared their lovely Camino story that began in 2016 and words with the congregation.

MightyFree · Aug 25, 2023

Lexicos said:
Thank you for this post Keith. It is useful and helpful to have some sense of what to expect. My last Camino Frances was in 2017 and since then I’m sure it has changed. In about 3 weeks I’ll see just how much it has changed. I’ll be walking it (from Longrono) for the second time. I guess every pilgrim and every person walking the Frances has their own reasons for doing it. You certainly do have to choose your company carefully but also to be prepared for odd and unusual behaviour ……. some of it disconcerting, for sure. What I found, thankfully, is that the noisy and boisterous ones you meet at the start are usually quietened and a bit humbled by the time they reach Santiago. Not all, but most. Yep, it tests your patience at times. I often remind myself to see the pilgrims/tourists on the trail as a microcosm of society and tell my self to be philosophical about what you see and hear. What else can one do?
You say it’s your last Camino. Well, maybe, you never know. I hope my last one is a long way off.
Buen Camino while you’re away from the trail!

Yes I agree. Despite a few disappointing outliers the Camino is generally a reflection of our times. It has changed a lot since my first in 2010, but in some ways it hasn’t changed at all…

norfolk-keith · Oct 20, 2023

Bradypus said:
It is 500 euro to pay for the Botafumeiro to be swung outside of one of the cathedral's own timetable days for its use. There is no charge to enter the cathedral whether the Botafumeiro is in use or not.

Hi Bradypus
No the cathedral is still free to enter.

dbier · Oct 20, 2023

Some of my fellow Primitivo walkers in late September were all on a single What's App group (created by one of the walkers during the walk).

The early fast walkers (from sunrise on) after Melide encountered crowds on the Way. There was pictorial evidence.

The early *slow* walkers (me) and the late walkers? No crowds (pictures taken at the same spot).

Time of day absolutely matters, even and especially on the Frances. ;-)...

...and we saw the Botafumerio swing at the 1230 Mass on Friday 29 Sep 23, because the family of a deceased peregrino sponsored its flight. My veteran '6 Camino' new Primitivo friend and the people she brought with her were all in tears when they saw the tirabolos loosing the ropes at the end of Mass.

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