MaidinBham
Active Member
- Time of past OR future Camino
- Camino Frances SJPP to Muxia, April (2014)
Camino Portuguese Lisbon>Santiago, April/May (2016)
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Yes David, I appreciate that you are immuno-compromised, and have read with interest your many posts.Hi @MaidinBham. I have seen this report and understand the focus on carcinogenic risk factors; but there are more recent reports in regards to military personnel. Nonetheless, I appreciate the link. Thank you.
My focus is in regards to myself and my own health issues; mainly my immune system, as my WBC count has been and continues to be extremely low. I do have personal medical reports, which state that the “suspected” primary cause has been environmental exposure. Proving that to Veterans Affairs is a very different matter, as it’s basically an insurance based system for us. I served 25-years, most of that in an infantry battalion, and we were forever dipping our uniforms. I just don’t want others to go through what I have.
From reading some of your post, I appreciate your position and why you choose to use these products. It is important that everyone makes their own decision in this regard. I just try to present an alternative opinion, as I worry that some new pilgrims, based off many of these threads, may feel overtly scared into using this or similar products.
Again, with my immune deficiency, I simply can’t use these insecticides. However, I understand why you choose to. I just wish there was a validated alternative.
Edited (Added after post): For what it's worth - I just did a quick search and found this small article on military uniforms: http://www.nature.com/jes/journal/v24/n6/full/jes201365a.html
Take care!
Dave
Kanga@BrienC the University of Sydney Department of Entermology. My stock-in-trade is evidence and facts.
Hello all,
My first Camino will be this May, along with two other friends of mine. We are walking the whole of the Frances and are worried about what we've heard about bedbugs. One of us is opting for a silk sleeping bag liner, though I'm concerned that this won't properly prevent bedbugs as they can still easily latch on to the outer sleeping bag as well as clothes (after all, they can still crawl through the hole for your head in the top of the liner). I have also researched permethrin, a spray that guards against bedbugs but it is a carcinogen and as such I'd really rather not use it. Can anyone prove me wrong with the silk liner? Do we really need to worry about bedbugs anyway?
Thanks!
no they are not ,,,,, got bitten badly last sept on the meseta,,,,, and was using a treated liner,,, so yes bitten around the face and shoulders !!!!!!I have spent more than 80 nights in May/June in around 70 different Albergues in the last 2 years. I prefer the Municipal, Parrochial and low cost Private Albergues and have never come across any bed bugs. Maybe they are a Camino myth.
Love the comment about winning the lottery. I have been bitten on 2 different Camino's (del Norte and Frances). I know that one was the Albergue Jacques de Molay on the frances. believe me you would be well served to learn the sign and check your bedding regularily and learn whatr to do if you find them. Enlist the aid of fellow pilgrims who may have knowledge on the matter. PS you can get bed bugs anywhere including the highest level of hotelsBedbugs love silk. It's so soft on their tiny feet. And it makes no noise so they can attack without waking you.
Permethrin is sprayed on the outside of your sleeping bag not on your skin. Yes, it is poison but so is sugar in the amounts most people eat it. And for cancer causing products look no further than your fragranced laundry detergents, perfumes, lotions, creams, and ingredients in the back of the fast food and packaged food you eat. And for heavens sakes, avoid bacon.
Learn to spot bedbug sign and if you choose, use permethrin as an extra precaution.
Those who say they have not been bitten have just won the lottery. Ask those who HAVE been bitten if there are bedbugs. For some it is no worse than a mosquito bite. On others I've seen welts the size of a quarter with itching that will drive you mad.
For me the biggest concern is taking them back home, an expense that can quickly run into the thousands of dollars.
Don't be paranoid but don't be ignorant. Learn to spot the little buggers and take precautions. They've already begun to hatch and bite and it's early in the season.
I'm on my phone and can't post a link but if you Google 'Annie's Simple Life Bedbugs' you will find my blog on how to spot them with plenty of photos.
Buen Camino.
then my fellow Camino hermano you are one of the lucky ones. even I have never been bitten by one cause I use permethrin . But I have seen them and I have done 5 CF. Last year they were also on the Camino del Norte.All I can tell y'all is that I've done the CF three times and never seen a bedbug or had a bedbug bite.
Yeah, but I never met anyone along the Way that had been bitten either. At least not at the albergues I was staying at. I'm starting to think that bedbugs on the Camino are like the legendary jackalope of the American southwest.then my fellow Camino hermano you are one of the lucky ones. even I have never been bitten by one cause I use permethrin . But I have seen them and I have done 5 CF. Last year they were also on the Camino del Norte.
I am curious, @Mark Lee ... Do you really disbelieve all of our accounts about encountering bedbugs?Yeah, but I never met anyone along the Way that had been bitten either. At least not at the albergues I was staying at. I'm starting to think that bedbugs on the Camino are like the legendary jackalope of the American southwest.
ain't luck if it ain't there
I don't think this is helpful @Mark LeeYou were just lucky, enjoy !
I saw people bitten on my first camino. I was only bitten on my second camino. Third camino: I was a PAIN checking every nook and cranny and yes, in the albergues I'd left, people were bitten.
They are there, whether you acknowledge it or not
Let's just say I think things on here get a wee bit exaggerated at times. Sure, the occasional bedbug bite is possible, but I also think a lot of the bites are the result of mosquito and flea encounters. No way do I think the bedbug populations on the Camino warrant walking around with a backpack and gear with the toxicity level of the average chemical plant.I am curious, @Mark Lee ... Do you really disbelieve all of our accounts about encountering bedbugs?
The topic is certainly of great interest here, and newcomers may have exaggerated concern, but I don't think there are exaggerated accounts of people getting bitten. If people google "bedbug bites" they will see photos of extreme cases that are not typical of pilgrim experiences. Rather, a typical situation on the Camino is a cluster of several itchy bites on the face or arms that have been outside your sleeping bag. For some of us, the reaction develops in a way that is quite unlike flea or mosquito bites, but there is no cause for panic! The bites will go away in a few days or a week.Let's just say I think things on here get a wee bit exaggerated at times. Sure, the occasional bedbug bite is possible, but I also think a lot of the bites are the result of mosquito and flea encounters. No way do I think the bedbug populations on the Camino warrant walking around with a backpack and gear with the toxicity level of the average chemical plant.
I just don't really take too much an entomological or scientific approach to any aspects of the Camino when I walk it. I just grab a pack, a pair of trail runners and get to stepping. Bugs be damned.The topic is certainly of great interest here, and newcomers may have exaggerated concern, but I don't think there are exaggerated accounts of people getting bitten. If people google "bedbug bites" they will see photos of extreme cases that are not typical of pilgrim experiences. Rather, a typical situation on the Camino is a cluster of several itchy bites on the face or arms that have been outside your sleeping bag. For some of us, the reaction develops in a way that is quite unlike flea or mosquito bites, but there is no cause for panic! The bites will go away in a few days or a week.
I sympathize with your view that people overreact in their fear of bedbugs. However, my approach is not to overreact in the other direction, but to give factual information and sensible strategies to manage the risks. I am botheredwhen I see statements that are dubious or simply incorrect, when knowledge of the basic facts is enough to make the problem quite manageable for most of us. I don't use permethrin any more, mainly because I haven't seen much evidence that it works. I rely on occasional Deet on my own skin, isolation and heat treatment while on the Camino, and heat and cold treatment upon arrival home. I still get a cluster of bites every 2 or 3 weeks, but I don't let it ruin my Camino, and most importantly, I'm confident that I can protect my home. That gives me peace of mind with respect to the bedbug situation. (Other people get peace of mind by putting their heads in the sand, but the sand fleas would probably get me if I did that.)
Easier to do when you don't have itchy red welts on your face!I just don't really take too much an entomological or scientific approach to any aspects of the Camino when I walk it. I just grab a pack, a pair of trail runners and get to stepping. Bugs be damned.
That is an interesting thought. Maybe they are seasonal. In the last 2 years I walked in May and June so maybe that is why I never came across them.I found Summer and hot seasons to be more prone to have BBs being transported from refugio to refugio by the pilgrims...
I think they are also more prone to reproduction during summer ( I might be talking BS, if so please someone correct me).
Ultreya!!!
Written words in the Forum don't count??never spoke to anyone who had been bitten
I will happily use permethrin on my sleeping sheet, sleeping bag and backpack, secure in the knowledge that bedbugs prefer to bite those who put their faith in essential oils and magic incantations....
Not that permethrin is the be all and end all, there is increasing evidence of bedbug resistance. Direct application of heat is the best killer.
Kanga, what do you use as a sleeping sheet? And where did you get it? Thanks - MarcI soak my sleeping sheet and bag in permethrin (bought from a hiking store) and then hang them outside to dry. Once dry there is no smell or apparent residue. My backpack I spray with ant killer.....which happens to be permethrin.
Ha, that’s funnyWritten words in the Forum don't count??
Maybe not. It is known that many people have no reaction to their bites. It is not known what proportion of people. So, you should treat your things when you get home whether you think you've encountered them or not.However, now that I’ve jinxed myself, I will no doubt meet these wiley beasts in their hoards on day one, when I walk in 2017.
You forgot to mention the bears, wild boar and wolves that are in northern Spain.@C clearly No worries there. My wife is a retired Preventive Medicine Technician (an enhanced Civilian Health Inspector) and she never lets me past the garage until “ALL” kit is wrapped and secured. I do check my kit rather diligently throughout the Camino, especially prior to flying out to Madrid. We can only do so much and manage as best we can.
I understand the risks, and am personally not worried about bed bugs. However, ticks are another matter entirely and I am not a fan of snakes, which I saw several of on my Sep/Oct 2015 journey. Regardless, I don’t let any of these issues detract from my Camino, as they are out of my control for the most part.
The wild boars (we call them feral hogs or boar hogs in Texas) can be big and bad, but the chance of one messing with you on the Camino is highly unlikely and quite often they are nocturnal in nature. That's why you need dogs to hunt them in the morning or later in the day.Last fall, I walked over O'Cebreiro on what must have been the first day of the open season on wild boars. Around the one bar in the town where I stopped for the night were lined up several trucks with dog kennels in the back with the bodies of two or three monstrous boars on top leaking blood over the sides of the kennels onto the faces of the triumphant dogs. It was a chilling sight for a timid vegetarian. On the other hand, I have several times come across bears in the back country when hiking alone and have so far survived the experience - a combination of (sometimes) appropriate behaviour and dumb luck. I won't give up my planned excursion just because I share the neighbourhood with a grizzly bear, although that is what is recommended. But I haven't come across any bears, or live boars, while walking in Spain, and I would just as soon not.
I was at a small hostel in Burgos for 3 days due to knee pain. the hospitalero an angel of a man asked only that I leave for half hour each day to clean. he gave me a bottom bunk and let me rest all day. above me was a girl that had bed bugs and carried them on to other places along the way. I know cause the place where next she went helped her get rid of them. why I didn't I get them from her when she was above me is due to the permetherin which I had spread before leaving home. those who are infested do carry them to the next place unless they get rid of them properly by hot wash and dryer.My experiences have been the same as Mark Lee. I accept that others have had bedbug problems, but I believe they are not everywhere just in some places.
Maybe I have been lucky staying in around 70 different Albergues in the last two years. I think it shows that bedbug problems may be found in a small percentage of places, and that the posts here reflect the problem side only, not the good side, so it is easy to think they are everywhere.
I was at a small hostel in Burgos for 3 days due to knee pain. the hospitalero an angel of a man asked only that I leave for half hour each day to clean. he gave me a bottom bunk and let me rest all day. above me was a girl that had bed bugs and carried them on to other places along the way. I know cause the place where next she went helped her get rid of them. why I didn't I get them from her when she was above me is due to the permetherin which I had spread before leaving home. those who are infested do carry them to the next place unless they get rid of them properly by hot wash and dryer.
It is heat, not water, that eliminates bed bugs. If you think you have them, don't bother with washing, throw your gear straight into the clothes drier and turn up the heat. Your stuff will get hotter, for longer, if it is dry. A half hour at >60C should kill the bugs and their eggs. (Putting your stuff in the sun in a black plastic bag is unlikey to do the job.) Upon return, if you can immediately transfer your gear into a freezer at 0C (-20F) for 3 to 4 days before you unpack, it should avoid an infestation in your home.I was at a small hostel in Burgos for 3 days due to knee pain. the hospitalero an angel of a man asked only that I leave for half hour each day to clean. he gave me a bottom bunk and let me rest all day. above me was a girl that had bed bugs and carried them on to other places along the way. I know cause the place where next she went helped her get rid of them. why I didn't I get them from her when she was above me is due to the permetherin which I had spread before leaving home. those who are infested do carry them to the next place unless they get rid of them properly and by hot wash and dryer.
Where do you see the post numbers? (I've wondered before, when people refer to post # but I can see them numbered.)Have we settled the debate yet?
138 posts just on this thread...
@C clearly:Where do you see the post numbers? (I've wondered before, when people refer to post # but I can see them numbered.)
Ah! Of course. It is very obvious now. Thanks!@C clearly:
The post numbers are on a button right next to the "like" button. Your last post was #140.
7. Some advice on where to get the chemicals in Spain in case you decide to use them. I was surprised to have difficulty to find permethryn-based spray in the pharmacies in Spain, on the Camino given that BB must be not uncommon problem. I have gone to litteraly more than 10 pharmacies before finding such spray just during the last days of the journey, the name "Farma Zum Cinches y Pulgas".
Ok just for fun .....but still Camino related....and about dealing with bears, snakes and other possible critters on The Camino. I taped this last week while on my daily training walk here at home.....this is NOT in the wild , and not an exception but a normal thing in my developmentYou forgot to mention the bears, wild boar and wolves that are in northern Spain.
Yeah, a few of them gators not far from where I'm sitting here right now in south Louisiana. They were so common in coastal south Texas where we used to duck hunt that we couldn't bring a retriever dog with us during the early season. Dog jump in to get a duck and good chance he won't make it back.a little off topic ( the bedbugs ) but about dealing with bears, snakes and other possible critters on The Camino. I taped this last week while on my daily stroll here at home.....this is NOT in the wild , and not an exception but a normal thing my developmentI also come across snakes every now and then and we have black bears coming into the community (but you don't see them often.) My point is.....try to relax and just be aware of your surroundings. I do not like bed bugs either and simply do a bed check where ever I sleep ....also here in the USA and then just hope for the best
where I'm sitting here right now in south Louisiana.
It's sunny, 29c and 64% humidity.....kinda stickyWow, that makes me dream
Written from - cold - UK!
It's sunny, 29c and 64% humidity.....kinda sticky
Wow, that makes me dream
Written from - cold - UK!
Let's just say I think things on here get a wee bit exaggerated at times. Sure, the occasional bedbug bite is possible, but I also think a lot of the bites are the result of mosquito and flea encounters. No way do I think the bedbug populations on the Camino warrant walking around with a backpack and gear with the toxicity level of the average chemical plant.
Well, three CF's from SJPdP to Santiago under my belt, and stayed in all manner of albergues and such on them, and nary a bedbug encounter. I firmly believe that if I did another three my record would stay intact.Famous last words.
Well, three CF's from SJPdP to Santiago under my belt, and stayed in all manner of albergues and such on them, and nary a bedbug encounter. I firmly believe that if I did another three my record would stay intact.
Maybe y'all need to think more positive or something. All them negative vibes and fear of bedbugs maybe attracting them.
I would not wish a bed bug bite on anyone, but they are out there and not fun to deal withYeah, but I never met anyone along the Way that had been bitten either. At least not at the albergues I was staying at. I'm starting to think that bedbugs on the Camino are like the legendary jackalope of the American southwest.
ain't luck if it ain't there
Yes, of course. Must be my fault.Maybe y'all need to think more positive or something. All them negative vibes and fear of bedbugs maybe attracting them.
Yes, of course. Must be my fault.
@DavidsRetired:
David, I too am retired, and living on a low income and no work pension. This is something that I manage very well, but an infestation of bedbugs in my home could be financially disastrous and extremely uncomfortable to me and to my neighbours. To me, this is a risk which I cannot and will not take on. In addition, there is a risk of causing considerable discomfort and possibly illness to some of the vulnerable seniors who share my apartment block. I have had food poisoning and find it most uncomfortable, but I get over it and do not risk either taking it home or passing it on to others. Of course, there are always risks of travel, but I choose to minimize the risk of taking the pests home. I consider that to be more than an inconvenience.
Well, three CF's from SJPdP to Santiago under my belt, and stayed in all manner of albergues and such on them, and nary a bedbug encounter. I firmly believe that if I did another three my record would stay intact.
@Mark Lee - it is precisely your posts (suggesting that bedbugs are a myth) that keep me posting on this subject! I absolutely am not trying to discourage anyonel! I simply want people to understand the facts and have methods to manage the risks. (Which are real!)I'm not a conspiracy theorist by any stretch of the imagination, but is it possible that this whole bedbug issue on the Camino is being inflated and really given a lot of forum time in some sort of attempt to scare off prospective pilgrims, thus reducing the crowds and ensuring more (bedbug free) bed space at albergues?
Hmmm.....
Prospective pilgrims out there reading this, do not be influenced or intimidated in any way. Walk the Camino fearlessly. Bedbugs just ain't that bad on it.
Wow, wee bit of anger and violence (punch to the nose?)....ha haI think Mark Lee is enjoying hooking people.
And frankly, it is annoying as hell, seeing how many of us have been bitten or have seen people who were bitten. I dealt with a hysterical crying client covered in bites she got at Roncesvalles and if you tell her bedbugs are a myth I suspect you'd get a punch in the nose. I saw a Korean lady who looked like she had chickenpox the bites were so bad and took a German man to hospital with bites the size of a 50 cent piece.
To tell people not to worry and that they don't exist is ignorant and negligent, in my opinion, and is one reason they are spread along the Camino.
I may or may not have been bitten ONCE on my first Camino 10 years ago. But I have seen evidence of bugs and their bites on every Camino every year since.
I've never seen a grizzly bear up close either and don't know anyone who has been eaten by one, but if I ever walk the PCT I won't keep my food in my tent.
We all agree there is no reason to be paranoid. But not to be educated in this day and age or to tell people who HAVE seen or experienced the evidence is as irritating as the little beast's bite itself!
Wow, wee bit of anger and violence (punch to the nose?)....ha ha
"the lady doth protest too much, methinks"....
Again, I stand by my experiences on three Caminos. No bedbugs and no bedbug victims observed. Come to think of it, didn't see any grizzly bears either....
whoa easy there Pablo....no need to throw down the gauntlet...ha haAh, sweet babyliar...
None of us has ever seen you on the path.
i do believe that what WE eat can make US tastier,, garlic is often used as an additive to some horses food to reduce insect/fly bites ,but each to their own ideas as long as anyone that has a bug prob deals with it and does not carry the buggers along with them ,Kanga, Studying insects, and I suppose how to kill them, is indeed important work (unless you are the bug). I contend that non-toxic formulas are -- and shall remain -- an option for those people wishing to avoid carcinogens, such as Hamilton-Arvisais.
Additionally, I do take it personally when terms like "snake oil" and "magic incantations" are used to refute my perspective. Perhaps I should develop thicker skin, by applying carcinogens;-)
Then again, I've never been biten by a bed bug, a fact, never soaked my clothes in or sprayed my pack with carcinogens. Maybe my skin is already thick enough, at least for attacks of the bed bug variety.
Perhaps the best thing I have read in this thread is what C clearly said about some people not being allergic or attractive to bed bugs. Seems there may be some fact there too. I wonder why that is. Maybe I eat more garlic than others, or some other intake, or maybe it's just DNA. Who knows for sure? My wife has gone backpacking with me and been covered by ticks, when I had none. Begs the question, do I eat more garlic than her? does the fact that I drink red wine and she white wine make all the difference. God only knows.
The fact remains that there are options out there on the market (many of them), no matter where you studied. Use whatever your own sensibilities can handle.
Respectfully,
whoa easy there Pablo....no need to throw down the gauntlet...ha ha
Nobody see you ergo you ain't there.
.
Saw this today:Right, like a person denying humans have a brain because they have never held one in their hand.
why do you think you have had such great success, and what were your preparations?All I can tell y'all is that I've done the CF three times and never seen a bedbug or had a bedbug bite.
Just completed the CF for a fourth time, and again no bedbug encounters, and no reports of them in the albergues I stayed in as well. That makes it approximately 120 days or so doing the Camino, staying in all kinds of accommodations (albergues that are municipal and private) and no chinches.why do you think you have had such great success, and what were your preparations?
Heyyyyy.......I like the sound of dat.My theory is that @Mark Lee is actually an alien and therefore unpalatable to bedbugs. His plan is to get the entire human race on Camino so that he can take over the rest of the planet
I need to amend this post: don't put your gear directly into the drier if your stuff contains significant amounts of sand. The grit can damage the drier motor. (Out son wrecked our clothes drier this way.)It is heat, not water, that eliminates bed bugs. If you think you have them, don't bother with washing, throw your gear straight into the clothes drier and turn up the heat. Your stuff will get hotter, for longer, if it is dry. A half hour at >60C should kill the bugs and their eggs. (Putting your stuff in the sun in a black plastic bag is unlikey to do the job.) Upon return, if you can immediately transfer your gear into a freezer at 0C (-20F) for 3 to 4 days before you unpack, it should avoid an infestation in your home.
I had to laugh when the title of this thread appeared in the feed: "Bedbug Question! Settle our debate!" After 172 posts and then 6 years of dormancy, we have other more recent versions of the debate, so I'll close this one.I need to amend this post
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