Be careful and listen to the locals!

[SabsP]

http://www.diariodenavarra.es/notic...a_que_roto_una_pierna_caerse_433410_2061.html

 

[obinjatoo]

Good reminder folks. The Camino is not difficult nor is it to be taken lightly. Plan ahead and be prepared. Thanks for reminding me, I can get complacent at times.

 

[peregrina2000]

If I'm reading the description right, the pilgrims must have ignored the "closed" notices. Does anyone know what kind of indications are in place to let people know that this alternative is closed till the end of March?

I'm assuming that the pilgrims will be hit with a big rescue fee. https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...harge-for-rescues-caused-by-imprudence.16849/

 

[SabsP]

Sorry the guy is diabetic but especially he should have known better, not bringing enough food!
It makes me really angry.
And I really hope that because of all the people who were helping these silly pilgrims not any of the local people in Navarra were in danger because all the paramedics and colleagues were not available to attend to them!

 

[ivar]

This seems to be images from the rescue. Video from the government of Navarra taken in the area of Ibañeta.

 

[MichaelB10398]

All of us have done stupid things, but sometimes the stupid things we do come with a price tag. As Peregrina2000 mentioned above this may easily turn into a huge fee for these pilgrims. Rescuing people is expensive, particularly when it involves the use of helicopters and numbers of medically trained personnel. I think these pilgrims should pay for their own rescue because they chose to ignore all the warnings.

Let us be reasonable when on Camino. Pay attention and choose to obey rules and observe warnings. In doing so, we will never be put in the position of needing to pay huge rescue fees. More importantly, those rescuing us will be available to serve others that are in accidents that are not of their choosing.

 

[SabsP]

Yes, Michael you write it much more eleoquently.

 

[James R B]

Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.

 

[domigee]

A diabetic, on a mountain pass, in the snow and ... no food! Beggars belief.
I am very pleased they are both alive, they've been very lucky.

 

[GettingThere]

I agree with @domigee - they have been very lucky. Why, why, why would anyone choose to ignore signs (and I'm sure also warnings at the Pilgrim's Office) and attempt that route in snow? Or at all, even if the snow came on suddenly, when the route is closed? It sounds as though the woman may have fallen while attempting to go for help for the man. As for a diabetic going up there with no food.... I am finding it very hard to have sympathy for anyone other than the rescue crews, who had to go out in that weather because of two people behaving so recklessly. As the Government of Navarra has previously announced it will start charging for such rescues caused by "imprudence", they will have those costs plus the wasted airfares from Brazil, if they have travelled especially for the Camino. A very expensive error in judgement.

 

[koilife]

Perhaps they were assured that "The Camino provides . . ." as if everything will magically work out when one is ill-prepared, unskilled, hasn't trained, and fails to exercise good judgement. I don't agree with fear-mongering, but I think we do a disservice to inexperienced walkers when we underplay real risks with excess optimism. Sure, we encourage lighter packs and fewer items because, after all, anything we really need we can buy almost anywhere along the way (except knowledge, skill, experience, and prudence, none which I have yet to see on the shelf of any outfitter, not even REI).

In this case, the Camino did provide --- a stone cold lesson, though thankfully not a fatal one. Perhaps trust in fairy tale endings is best left to fairy tale books.

P.S. My apologies if this is a bit harsh. I find the whole thing really disturbing and I would never want this forum to unintentionally encourage the kind of reckless and ignorant behavior that caused the original post.

 

[jmcarp]

I'm reminded of an old Kingston Trio song called "Where Have All the Flowers Gone?" It was an anti-war protest song of the 1960s, but one of the lines is apropos regarding this circumstance: it says, "When will they ever learn, when will they ever learn?"

 

[peregrina2000]

I cannot tell based on these reports whether the pilgrims were walking on the Valcarlos route or the Napoleon route (officially closed til the end of March), mainly because I've never walked the Valcarlos route and don't know if it passes through Ibaneta or not. I think they were rescued close to Ibaneta.

Help from the veterans, please! Thanks, Laurie

 

[Anemone del Camino]

It's past Valcarlos. Accessible by road.

 

[peregrina2000]

It's past Valcarlos. Accessible by road.

Thanks, Anemone, so does this mean that they may have paid attention to the "closed" signs on the Napoleon route, and have gotten into trouble on the Valcarlos route?

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Thanks, Anemone, so does this mean that they may have paid attention to the "closed" signs on the Napoleon route, and have gotten into trouble on the Valcarlos route?

That's my take on it.

 

[mspath]

Ibaneta pass is definitely on the Valcarlos route, close to Roncessvalles. However in one video of the recent rescue the tiny hut at Izandorre is shown which is not on the Valcarlos alternate but definitely on the Napoleon. In another video the Ibaneta zona is mentioned to describe the geographic area of the rescue.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

She was taken to the hut by the rescue team as she was is such poor condition due to hypotermia. She was not found in the hut. She apparently went out looking for help for her companion and fell, injuring her leg which she thought was broken, but turned out not to be. She fell in water in the process which contribute to the hypothermia. She was apparently found at the level of the No. 29 Camino post, soith of the hut, so she must have been near if not on route.

 

[GettingThere]

I cannot tell based on these reports whether the pilgrims were walking on the Valcarlos route or the Napoleon route (officially closed til the end of March), mainly because I've never walked the Valcarlos route and don't know if it passes through Ibaneta or not. I think they were rescued close to Ibaneta.

Help from the veterans, please! Thanks, Laurie

I think as @mspath says they are referring to the Ibaneta area, rather than the pass specifically, which is on the Valcarlos route. I have heard the whole area referred to as that before, including the hills above. The shelter is far from there, so she would not have been taken from the Valcarlos route to the shelter. The video shoes the helicopter on a clear hilltop, which can't have been too far from where they stayed with her in the shelter, as they seem to be partly carrying her. One hopes not anyway.

 

[mspath]

This schematic map shows the two routes. Note the location of the Izandorre hut on the Napoleon route and marked with 112 for emergency calls.
http://www.aucoeurduchemin.org/spip/spip.php?article145

 

[Lachance]

I'm reminded of an old Kingston Trio song called "Where Have All the Flowers Gone?" It was an anti-war protest song of the 1960s, but one of the lines is apropos regarding this circumstance: it says, "When will they ever learn, when will they ever learn?"

I remember it as Peter, Paul and Mary. No music buff though. There was also a terrific version from Marlene Dietrich, 'sag mir wo die Blumen sind'.

 

[wayfarer]

Perhaps they were assured that "The Camino provides . . ." as if everything will magically work out when one is ill-prepared, unskilled, hasn't trained, and fails to exercise good judgement. I don't agree with fear-mongering, but I think we do a disservice to inexperienced walkers when we underplay real risks with excess optimism. Sure, we encourage lighter packs and fewer items because, after all, anything we really need we can buy almost anywhere along the way (except knowledge, skill, experience, and prudence, none which I have yet to see on the shelf of any outfitter, not even REI).

In this case, the Camino did provide --- a stone cold lesson, though thankfully not a fatal one. Perhaps trust in fairy tale endings is best left to fairy tale books.

P.S. My apologies if this is a bit harsh. I find the whole thing really disturbing and I would never want this forum to unintentionally encourage the kind of reckless and ignorant behavior that caused the original post.

I agree with you, some of us do encourage bringing the minimum in the race for the lightest pack or a pockets only Camino. This may be fine in perfect conditions but not so much if things go pear shaped. The Camino may provide but we grew up with the saying "God helps those who help themselves" so pack for all conditions on the Camino because you will surely experience them especially early in the year, you will have to carry what you pack but its better to have them than to need them, and above all as the OP said in the Thread title "listen to the locals". Thank God and the Rescue Service they are safe.
Buen Camino.

 

[navarro]

Two pilgrims were rescued yesterday bteween SSJDP and Roncesvalles

http://www.noticiasdenavarra.com/20...grina-se-despidio-del-marido-estaba-entregada

 

[Kanga]

I am not rushing to judgment because we do not know anything about these two people, what they knew or did not know, what they understood about the camino, and how they came to be on the mountain. Not everyone comes with with the knowledge we share on this forum. Brazilians have been hugely influenced by Paulo Coelho and as we all know his book is anything but a practical or factual guide.

My main concern is that many people are now walking in March, April and October, November - without being adequately prepared. It does not help that sometimes the weather during these times can be balmy, as it raises expectations it is always that way. When it obviously is not.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

I am not rushing to judgment because we do not know anything about these two people, what they knew or did not know, what they understood about the camino, and how they came to be on the mountain. Not everyone comes with with the knowledge we share on this forum. Brazilians have been hugely influenced by Paulo Coelho and as we all know his book is anything but a practical or factual guide.

My main concern is that many people are now walking in March, April and October, November - without being adequately prepared. It does not help that sometimes the weather during these times can be balmy, as it raises expectations it is always that way. When it obviously is not.

Could not agree with you more. I have been puzzled and somewhat concerned by all the recent posts here from peole saying they are heading out on the Salvador and Primitivo routes in the next few days and weeks. My first reaction when learning that these two rescuees were from Brazil was that they might have been seeing snow for the first time in their lives and have no idea how to prepare for it.,

 

[Scott Sweeney]

Perhaps they were assured that "The Camino provides . . ." as if everything will magically work out when one is ill-prepared, unskilled, hasn't trained, and fails to exercise good judgement. I don't agree with fear-mongering, but I think we do a disservice to inexperienced walkers when we underplay real risks with excess optimism. Sure, we encourage lighter packs and fewer items because, after all, anything we really need we can buy almost anywhere along the way (except knowledge, skill, experience, and prudence, none which I have yet to see on the shelf of any outfitter, not even REI).

In this case, the Camino did provide --- a stone cold lesson, though thankfully not a fatal one. Perhaps trust in fairy tale endings is best left to fairy tale books.

P.S. My apologies if this is a bit harsh. I find the whole thing really disturbing and I would never want this forum to unintentionally encourage the kind of reckless and ignorant behavior that caused the original post.

How very true. If I had a dollar for every time I've seen post's that so assuredly puts walker's health at risk by implying the Camino provides. We have all seen pilgrims in Pamplona or three or four days into their Camino physically broken and in pain and worse emotionally heart broken because their bodies were not prepared for their walk.. The Camino nor AT or the Kerry Way any other number of hiking trails do not provide for hikers but they do demand from hikers.

Good post and good reality check for many new long walkers. Thank God those rescued are safe.

 

[domigee]

Good post and good reality check for many new long walkers. Thank God those rescued are safe.

Indeed and all my admiration goes to the rescuers. The first pilgrim was found relatively quickly as he gave his position : close to the Izandorre refuge but the lady pilgrim had fallen into a ravine. It took 11 rescuers to get her out, around midnight and in temperatures of minus 7.

Wonderful people.

 

[Mark Lee]

Whether it was the ValCarlos or the Napoleon route is inconsequential. Only the very foolish (stupid is as stupid does) would walk in those weather conditions. Something to be considered to those that choose to plan their CF this early in the year.
They were lucky, and more importantly the rescue personnel went home safely at the end of the day.
When I worked in public safety we used to say that people like the couple involved in this incident gave us job security.

 

[navarro]

http://www.diariodenavarra.es/notic...a_que_roto_una_pierna_caerse_433410_2061.html

Some explanatios.
Ibañeta pass is the area where the road crosses the mountains at 1100 meters of altitude and ususly remains clean of snow. A cleaning machine is disposed at this area when forecast gives a risk of snow. There is a place where cars can be placed next to the ermita. And here the rescue crew places the operative base.

From here a local service road goes to the pass of Lepoeder in the Napoleon route, but it is not practicable when snowed, so rescue crew must go on foot to reach, first Lepoeder pass an later walk by the Napoleon route. There are abou two miles 3,5 Km from Ibañeta to Lepoeder and a slope about 350 or 400 meters.

Last saturday I was in SJPDP and Valcarlos. Just we talked about this subject with a local people and told us that local rescue crew, many of them volunteers conducted by profesional rescue people, are very fed up with the actitude of some pilgrims. They call 112 but arrive to Roncesvalles and dont notify that they have arrived at Roncesvalles, while rescue crew is searching for them, they are safe.
When stopped at Ibañeta we saw some fireman and asked him for problems. They answered that fortunately they were training for rescue conditions.

 

[navarro]

Whether it was the ValCarlos or the Napoleon route is inconsequential. Only the very foolish (stupid is as stupid does) would walk in those weather conditions. Something to be considered to those that choose to plan their CF this early in the year.
They were lucky, and more importantly the rescue personnel went home safely at the end of the day.
When I worked in public safety we used to say that people like the couple involved in this incident gave us job security.

The Varcarlos route is very safe at winter, last saturday I saw at least ten pilgrims and it is close to the road, if you are in a trouble it is easy to reach the road even it snows.

 

[navarro]

Its very useful to get an APP for your phone like Alpify or similar. It sends an emergency call with your position to the 112.

 

[domigee]

Thank you for those clarifications Navarro.

 

[Bradypus]

And I wonder how many people check when the sun will set and know that temperature can fall significantly already before sunset when they start their hike in unfamiliar surroundings?

Not just the temperature issue. People who have walked a summer camino and are now thinking of a winter walk sometimes forget the much shorter day length. Two weeks ago on the Camino Portugues it was still too dark to see yellow arrows with confidence at 0830 on some overcast days. And growing dark again shortly after 1900. Last year I walked the Camino Ingles in January and it was barely safe to walk before 0900 and for all practical purposes the day had ended by 1800. If you are slowed down by bad weather that could be a serious problem.

 

[t2andreo]

Someone did something seriously wrong, ill advised or just dumb. Assuming the St. Jean Pied de Port Pilgrim Office advised them the Napoleon Pass was closed until the end of March, WHAT was the advice given for the Valcarlos Route? If they were told that Valcarlos was open but extreme caution should be used, they ought not have been off road at all. That would have been very ill-advised.

That is why many people, on seeing this obstacle (snow on the trail), would take a taxi around to Roncesvalles. In this case, discretion would definitely have been the better part of valor.

The Camino is a very serious matter for many people. But, it i snot worth dying for as a result of a poor judgement.

That white stuff, that appears to be about ankle-deep is called snow. It is pretty to look at, but is dangerous, unforgiving and deadly. Hikers must respect snow, and even fear it. As this story points out, it can kill.

These pilgrims are extremely lucky they did not succumb to hyperthermia. I DO realize that we do not have all information. We also do not know if they even checked into the Pilgrim Office, or sought guidance before departing SJPdP.

But still, it seems to me that basic common sense was lacking in this instance.

All said, I am relieved and glad that the pilgrims survived, this time...

 

[Felipe]

I wonder if there is a "beware, this road to Roncesvalles is closed to pilgrims from November to March, please take the Valcarlos road, to you right" sign, somewhere after SJPP. It is easy to be confused in the excitement of the first day,with the jetlag on your mind, the maze of streets and lots of instructions and comments in a language you don't understand, especially with bad weather.

 

[Mark Lee]

I wonder if there is a "beware, this road to Roncesvalles is closed to pilgrims from November to March, please take the Valcarlos road, to you right" sign, somewhere after SJPP. It is easy to be confused in the excitement of the first day,with the jetlag on your mind, the maze of streets and lots of instructions and comments in a language you don't understand, especially with bad weather.

The ValCarlos route turnoff is well marked and also well illustrated in the map they give you at the pilgrim's office. It is shown as the green route to be taken in inclement weather.

 

[nreyn12]

There is a large sign about 200 meters after the refuge at Hunto that says the trail is closed November through March. It's a very tall sign that is difficult to miss.

 

[Kanga]

Yes, I agree, the short daylight hours are a consideration that many of us who come from closer to the equator do not take into account. It always takes me by surprise. As do the glorious long days in summer.

 

[zzotte]

There are some more details and slightly different information in the newspapers today. I can only shake my head in disbelief, looking at the times, places and other details given. You are a very kind person, Sabine, by chosing a nice title such as "Be careful and listen to the locals".

I reserve the right to say nothing ok only ones "Dumb ass" espero que ele pague para ser resgatado. (I hope he pays to be rescued)

zzotte

 

[compliance51]

Than you Ivar.

 

[AlwynWellington]

... they might have been seeing snow for the first time in their lives and have no idea how to prepare for it.

And if you don't know what you don't know, it becomes impossible.

From a few brief experiences I do know land marks become unrecognisable under even a light blanket of snow. As a consequence it is very easy to become disoriented and head off in quite the wrong direction without meaning to.

Reading the posts above it seems the man was near the Ibaneta Pass. This seems little more than a stones throw from Orreaga / Roncesvaux. We are told the helicopter landed on a higher flat area to recover the woman. This may simply have been the best landing place and not the actual location of the woman.

Until the stories of the two key players are known we do need to with-hold any judgement.

It is always an issue, with a party of two, one of whom is quite unwell, whether to stay together or separate, especially where the surroundings are unfamiliar.

For my money the woman was extremely brave to decide to go and look for help.

 

[Kanga]

If she was on the Route Napoleon near the top of the pass I'm astonished she got telephone coverage at all. But I guess we are used to no coverage in country areas.

 

[domigee]

Reading the posts above it seems the man was near the Ibaneta Pass. This seems little more than a stones throw from Orreaga / Roncesvaux. We are told the helicopter landed on a higher flat area to recover the woman. This may simply have been the best landing place and not the actual location of the woman.
.

The man pilgrim told the rescuers he was close to the refuge, they sent a helicopter and also 2 volunteers went off on a snow-bike. The helicopter spotted him first and took him to the hospital.

The woman had fallen in a ditch where there was water and because of her poor state of health, the rescuers carried her on a stretcher made of ropes to the near-by refuge, where they spent the night with her. She was evacuated by helicopter the next morning.

That is my understanding of the various articles.

What also surprised me is that the man never mentioned there was another pilgrim walking with him, which is why they didn't go looking for her straight away. But then I realised, he must have been suffering from hypothermia which can make you very confused...

Like all of you I'm just relieved they both survived. A horrible story that ends well.

 

[Rob the Slob]

Like all of you I'm just relieved they both survived. A horrible story that ends well.

Yeah -- just last week two walkers died of hypothermia in Valencia. They tried to phone, but the coverage was scratchy. A few years ago I was walking about 40km away from where they died, and it's *very* remote: even in autumn, we never encountered anyone during the day except one shepherd (his flock played a joke on us and hid the trail markings), and in fact probably saw more eagles and vultures than people the whole trip.

 

[domigee]

Yeah -- just last week two walkers died of hypothermia in Valencia. They tried to phone, but the coverage was scratchy. A few years ago I was walking about 40km away from where they died, and it's *very* remote: even in autumn, we never encountered anyone during the day except one shepherd (his flock played a joke on us and hid the trail markings), and in fact probably saw more eagles and vultures than people the whole trip.

How tragic I just looked it up in the local paper and there was deep snow there as well

 

[Kanga]

Which, I think, roughly translates as "I lost the Route Napoleon in a blizzard and got lost".

 

[Mor]

Which, I think, roughly translates as "I lost the Route Napoleon in a blizzard and got lost".

Hi all , thank you Ivar for informing us re weather and for all these safety advices . We are starting our Camino on Thursday flying into Biarritz getting burricot to roncevalles and walking on Friday 18 March . I now don't know what to do . Is it safe or possible to walk on the road ? How do we get info re conditions I don't speak Spanish and weather forecasts don't tell as to how much snow is on the ground . We have accommodation booked along the way , I don't know whether I should try to cancel them and start further on like Pamplona . If anyone had information or advice I would be most grateful . Thank you all

 

[JohnnieWalker]

Hola Mor

I understand your concern but please don't panic. Many other pilgrims will also be planning to start at that time.

My advice is to go ahead as planned and assess the situation when you arrive. It isn't clear from your post whether you plan to start in Saint Jean or Roncesvalles.
If it is the former the Pilgrims Office will advise whether the Route Napoleon remains closed and also conditions on the alternative route. If you are in any doubt at all I advise you to check with the local police.

If you are walking the Valcarlos route or indeed starting in Roncesvalles you will have to decide yourself on the ground conditions. I'm very used to winter walking, you may not be and always remember you can take a taxi or bus forward a stage.

Buen Camino

John

 

[sojourners]

Perhaps they were assured that "The Camino provides . . ." as if everything will magically work out when one is ill-prepared, unskilled, hasn't trained, and fails to exercise good judgement. I don't agree with fear-mongering, but I think we do a disservice to inexperienced walkers when we underplay real risks with excess optimism. Sure, we encourage lighter packs and fewer items because, after all, anything we really need we can buy almost anywhere along the way (except knowledge, skill, experience, and prudence, none which I have yet to see on the shelf of any outfitter, not even REI).

In this case, the Camino did provide --- a stone cold lesson, though thankfully not a fatal one. Perhaps trust in fairy tale endings is best left to fairy tale books.

P.S. My apologies if this is a bit harsh. I find the whole thing really disturbing and I would never want this forum to unintentionally encourage the kind of reckless and ignorant behavior that caused the original post.

Well said. Especially the first paragraph.

 

[navarro]

Route Valcarlos is safe , even with bad weather. Dont worry about it. Las week snowed a lot in that area but the road is clean.

 

[Roneen]

Sorry the guy is diabetic but especially he should have known better, not bringing enough food!
It makes me really angry.
And I really hope that because of all the people who were helping these silly pilgrims not any of the local people in Navarra were in danger because all the paramedics and colleagues were not available to attend to them!

 

[West Coaster]

We have the WCT here in BC. It’s a very rugged 80km trek across the coast that once took 1 to 3 lives every year regardless of the warning signs. The government finally stepped in and put up a gate on both ends with a reservation that will cost you about $380. That put an end to the fools jumping on the trail and getting killed leaving it for those that are prepared and fit.

A reservation fee is out of the question for the Camino, but there should be a lot more emphasis placed on being prepared. Problem is - we have so many different tourist organizations that are trying to make a few Euros on the Camino. They’re trying hard to sell the Camino to anybody in any condition. I could book a Camino walk over the internet and be in SJPDP next week with only some advice given to me by an automated travel agent.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

I re

We have the WCT here in BC. It’s a very rugged 80km trek across the coast that once took 1 to 3 lives every year regardless of the warning signs. The government finally stepped in and put up a gate on both ends with a reservation that will cost you about $380. That put an end to the fools jumping on the trail and getting killed leaving it for those that are prepared and fit.

A reservation fee is out of the question for the Camino, but there should be a lot more emphasis placed on being prepared. Problem is - we have so many different tourist organizations that are trying to make a few Euros on the Camino. They’re trying hard to sell the Camino to anybody in any condition. I could book a Camino walk over the internet and be in SJPDP next week with only some advice given to me by an automated travel agent.

I really doubt you will find many organised departure dates for that area. At least guided ones.

 

[Franco]

I've always had a problem with the saying " the camino will provide " it might lead certain persons to come unprepared in my humble opinion

 

[Anemone del Camino]

The dirección general de Interior (not sure what kind of administrative entity this is - Ministry/Department for Home Affairs?) has billed the two pilgrims rescued last week. In addition to medical expenses, they will have to pay for some of the cost of their rescue operation: 5360 EUR for the woman and 450 EUR for the man, according to this news article: http://www.eitb.eus/es/noticias/soc...factura-5800-euros-dos-peregrinos-su-rescate/

BTW, although they have Brazilian nationality, at least one of them is a long-term resident in Europe and has seen snow before (including in skiing areas).

Their decision to chose the path across the higher pass (route Napoleon) was "clearly reckless and foolhardy", according to the Navarra Civil Protection Service.

And there are additional charges to come according to the article, including the the medical helipcopter!

 

[domigee]

And do you know, I am glad... Spain doesn't have that sort of money to spend recklessly. All this was unnecessary and a tragedy was avoided, just.

 

[mspath]

One wonders what is/was posted at the actual approach to the Napoleon route as it starts the ascent from SJPdP. Was there a physical barrier?

I have never walked the Napoleon route but always the Valcarlos. In the years I started in winter ie February 2007 and January 2008, 2009 and 2010 a local Gendarme always visited the municipal albergue, the only accommodation then open, in the evening before my departure and stressed the danger of crossing the mountain. Of course Mme Jeannine, the municipal hospitalera and I heartily agreed with him.

Are such visits still undertaken by the Gendarmes? Do prominant multi-lingual posters throughout SJPdP warn of the dangers as well as stating the law? Or is the sole warning that given by the Pilgrim office to those who do visit their office?

 

[navarro]

The government will charge de fees to the pilgrims. However there are unconscious people about the dangerous of this route, two pilgrims, spanish, were rescued yesterday at the same area, the Lepoeder pass. Added problem they were crossing that pass.... on bycicle.
http://www.diariodenavarra.es/notic...s_que_hacian_camino_santiago_441285_3204.html

 

[peregrina2000]

One wonders what is/was posted at the actual approach to the Napoleon route as it starts the ascent from SJPdP. Was there a physical barrier?

Margaret, that is what I've been wondering as well. At a minimum you would think there would be signs both back down in SJPP at the Camino turnoff as well as something really obvious at Orisson where the road ends. Since the Spaniards seem to be the ones doing all the rescues, I wonder if the government of Navarra needs to push for more obvious barriers? Or maybe we are just dealing with hard headed fuzzy thinking pilgrims who ignore all warning signs till it's too late.

 

[Icacos]

As I recall there was no sign outside St. Jean telling pilgrims that the Route Napoleon was closed when we were leaving. We had been warned at the pilgrim office not to go that way because of the snow storm (this was early April) but when we got to the location where the decision is made - left to Orisson or right to Valcarlos (if memory serves me correctly) - I remember thinking that there was nothing (save common sense) preventing pilgrims from going that route if they so decided. Indeed that road is used by local residents for miles before someone on foot would really run into trouble. A local resident walking on the road also warned us against going the Napoleon way, but that warning was unnecessary as we had already accepted that we couldn't, or shouldn't, go that way.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

As I recall there was no sign outside St. Jean telling pilgrims that the Route Napoleon was closed when we were leaving. We had been warned at the pilgrim office not to go that way because of the snow storm (this was early April) but when we got to the location where the decision is made - left to Orisson or right to Valcarlos (if memory serves me correctly) - I remember thinking that there was nothing (save common sense) preventing pilgrims from going that route if they so decided. Indeed that road is used by local residents for miles before someone on foot would really run into trouble. A local resident walking on the road also warned us against going the Napoleon way, but that warning was unnecessary as we had already accepted that we couldn't, or shouldn't, go that way.

@Icacos , if you walked in 2013 you would not have seen anything because, if memory serves me right, the rule was implemented only starting last winter 2014-2015).

 

[Arn]

In particular now in March which many people, depending on where they live or grew up, consider as a spring month.

No matter where I am I still consider March as a cold month with short days. I was in England a few days ago and while waiting at traffic lights, I noticed a group of children with their teacher, and one boy in short trousers and bare legs. I've seen similar many times before but my first thought is still the same: "It's only March! Long trousers and long sleeves season!!"

And I wonder how many people check when the sun will set and know that temperature can fall significantly already before sunset when they start their hike in unfamiliar surroundings?

I wear shorts all-year long! I also protect my core (chest cavity area) to reduce the possibility of getting cold, or at worst hypothermia.
My training is varied, but extensive in the cold weather arena (both in and out of water). If you prepare for the worst...you will do your best.
Arn

 

[navarro]

@Icacos , if you walked in 2013 you would not have seen anything because, if memory serves me right, the rule was implemented only starting last winter 2014-2015).

It is not correct. The rule has been implemented this winter first time. 2015-20161)

 

[domigee]

As I recall there was no sign outside St. Jean telling pilgrims that the Route Napoleon was closed when we were leaving. We had been warned at the pilgrim office not to go that way because of the snow storm (this was early April) but when we got to the location where the decision is made - left to Orisson or right to Valcarlos (if memory serves me correctly) - I remember thinking that there was nothing (save common sense) preventing pilgrims from going that route if they so decided. Indeed that road is used by local residents for miles before someone on foot would really run into trouble. A local resident walking on the road also warned us against going the Napoleon way, but that warning was unnecessary as we had already accepted that we couldn't, or shouldn't, go that way.

Before it was a recommendation but it became an order from last November (2015).
The newspaper article specified that there were signs saying it was closed, but only mentioned 'in Navarra'... @grayland walked in January and posts that there were signs blocking the Napoleon way (sorry, don't know how to add links to posts)

 

[domigee]

It is not correct. The rule has been implemented this winter first time. 2015-20161)

Sorry navarro, our posts crossed.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

It is not correct. The rule has been implemented this winter first time. 2015-20161)

Ah well, even more of a reason Icacos didn't signs in 2012!

 

[Icacos]

Ah well, even more of a reason Icacos didn't signs in 2012!

Actually, it was 2013! And note that my experience was one week into April, which is outside the November through March 'closed' period, now in effect. If a notice or sign is going to be erected warning pilgrims of the 'closed' period, precautions will need to be made also for those unexpected, necessary closures which occur outside of the November to March off-limit period - those early or late snow storms. But then, no one wants more signs!

 

[SabsP]

Here's the bill......http://www.noticiasdenavarra.com/20...en-el-caso-de-la-mujer-y-450-en-el-del-hombre

 

[peregrina2000]

My bad. I know that soon after Orisson the Camino turns to a dirt path (or at least that's what my memory is telling me), and what I should have said was that I think there should be a big sign right at the point where the Camino leaves the road, telling pilgrims the way is closed. Because as you say, Kathar1na, the actual roads may be open.

 

[Icacos]

........I think there should be a big sign right at the point where the Camino leaves the road, telling pilgrims the way is closed. Because as you say, Kathar1na, the actual roads may be open.

I wouldn't want to be the pilgrim who learns, at that location and perhaps for the first time, that the way is closed.

 

[Icacos]

I guess that's why the title of this thread is as it is.

 

[domigee]

I wouldn't want to be the pilgrim who learns, at that location and perhaps for the first time, that the way is closed.

Indeed no!
But I am still puzzled... The pilgrims KNOW the Camino goes over the Pyrénés. Now, even if you aren't used to mountains or trekking or what have you, you can SEE the mountains are covered in snow....It's not like you are surprised in a freak snowstorm, it's there for everyone to see....
Am I missing something?

 

[zzotte]

I was wrong. This is from the woman pilgrim herself and should settle the question where she was walking: "Me perdi na Rota de Napoleao nos pirineuos em uma nevasca."

Translation: I'm dumb ass, I should had listen to the locals the rest is just filers

zzotte

 

[Icacos]

Indeed no!
But I am still puzzled... The pilgrims KNOW the Camino goes over the Pyrénés. Now, even if you aren't used to mountains or trekking or what have you, you can SEE the mountains are covered in snow....It's not like you are surprised in a freak snowstorm, it's there for everyone to see....
Am I missing something?

No, I don't think you are missing anything, but I think other people are, otherwise they might make an attempt to stay out of these predicaments.

 

[zzotte]

Kathr1na, its perfectly ok to few uncomfortable, how do you think the the search and rescuers felt? It may look "pretty for the news but do you know the risk that is involved in a rescue operation? something that was totally preventable its like domigee said its not like the snow come out no where, the only thing one needed to do was look up how about carrying some food specially if you are a diabetic on a 27km hike up a hill covered in snow and apparently no experience (obviously) ? sugar coating does not help anyone so I tell like it is if made you "uncomfortable thats ok I love you anyway and please read fast because certain moderator likes to delete my stuff hahaha

zzotte

 

[Anemone del Camino]

I always keep saaying poor Darwin's theories do not apply to humans as they do to the rest of the animal kingdom. Animals smart. Humans: let's just not get into their reproductive, and other choices...

 

[Anemone del Camino]

http://france3-regions.francetvinfo...aint-jean-pied-port-et-ronceveaux-957661.html

Article and video in French. Some of the signs that indicate that the path is closed can be seen. People know.

Thank you for thins link. It could not be clearer: signs are in a number of languages and people do not care. The 5000€ is the penatly fee, to which the actual costs ar added. The Braziliams were the first ones charged.

Never did I think I would embrace Public Choice policies, but when your choice is due to stupidity and disregard to others turns out I am in favour! Utilisateur-payeur we say here in Qc.