Backpack indecision help!

[howardd5]

OK, I am a total newbie to this Camino pilgrimage. I have two questions, if I may.
1) what is the forums thoughts on the Osprey Atmos AG 50?

https://www.osprey.com/ca/en/product/atmos-ag-50-ATMOS50S18_334.html

It is 50 liters, but the top floating lid can be removed and used without, creating a pack closer to 40 liters. The attract is the carrying harness is very forgiving and good for those with creaky backs. The trade off of a bit of additional weight in exchange for a more comfortable carry is a trade I'd be inclined to make.
2) I've noticed services posted here that take your bag from town to town...so that you only hike with a hydration bag and snacks. Is that recommended? Can you do it for just some stretches of the path? If one feels like one is crashing a bit?
FWIW, I am on the older side (60 but enjoy walking...but recognize that a daily grind might create unexpected issues.
Any advice welcome. Thanks.

The new Atmos 50 is a decent all-round pack , a little heavy duty for the Camino , no need to have heavy gear or tent& cooking weight . I'm fond of Osprey and current use an Osprey exos 48 ,very light but able to easily carry what you need on the Camino . What you carry for 20 miles a day mounts up , no need to carry more than a little of water most days , so keep your shoes and pack light . On the AT you only go 12 miles a day and need ,lots of gear , that's when you need an Atmos pack.

 

[RJM]

This is definitely a "first" for me to read on the forum.

How about this? If you put your pack on, lie on the ground and cannot get back up with it on...you probably packed too much, lol.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

How about this? If you put your pack on, lie on the ground and cannot get back up with it on...you probably packed too much, lol.

I have done this a time or two (can't remember why) and it was a bit awkward, but I was able to get back up. I carry about 11 pounds with water.

 

[RJM]

I have done this a time or two (can't remember why) and it was a bit awkward, but I was able to get back up. I carry about 11 pounds with water.

I have done it a time or two as well. Unfortunately it was when I took falls while walking the Camino, lol. Fortunately I was able to get back up, and on two falls on the Camino rolled and used the pack as a cushion between myself and the ground. Bruised only my pride and ego lol.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I have done it a time or two as well. Unfortunately it was when I took falls while walking the Camino, lol. Fortunately I was able to get back up, and on two falls on the Camino rolled and used the pack as a cushion between myself and the ground. Bruised only my pride and ego lol.

Now I remember; it happened when I fell a couple of times, like you did.
Ironically, I once tripped over a small embedded rock and fell forward, "after" having dropped off my backpack at my room for the night and was walking around sightseeing. I skinned my knee and broke a rib!

 

[Gobsmacked by the World]

By way of follow up, I took the plunge today and purchased an Osprey Stratos 36 L.
I hovered greatly over the Exos, both 38 and 48...it was lighter...I suppose it was the belt pockets that won me over to the Stratos. That said, I still covet the front mesh stuff pocket of the Exos. As the forum can tell by this time, though I am a complete newbie, I can get pretty OCD over details etc.

I did want to thank all the input and encouragement this forum showed this complete newb.

Sadly though, I have discovered that neither the Stratos, nor the Exos, will actually do the walking for me. This weekend I will load up some (light) weight and (hopefully) make the transition from a complete newbie, to an aspirational newbie.

Thanks to all for your input!!!

 

[moss7]

I have field tested the Circuit for ULA and it is a superb backpack. However, if you are looking to ONLY use the backpack for a Camino, and not for backpacking as an activity, there are backpacks that are more budget friendly, and, although they are not of the same build quality, will work well for a Camino or two.

Smaller is not the goal. Lightness is not the goal. The goal is a backpack that fits exceedingly well and FEELS good with the proper fit.

A larger backpack is fine for smaller loads. I used the ULA Circuit and the Gossamer Gear Mariposa on a thru hike of the PCT carrying 7 days of food and fuel and other gear for a backpacking trip in the 'wild', and I used the GG Mariposa on the Camino as well. I have used the ULA Circuit as a daypack. Again, IF you need a backpack for more than ONE type of hiking or backpacking, and you cannot afford to purchase more than one backpack, any backpack can be multitasked.

If you are looking for a list of specific recommendations to put on your 'audition' list, send me a message via Private Message. I will be happy to assist as I can.

Again, the capacity of the backpack doesn't matter as much as Fit-n-Feel. Smaller backpacks are not necessarily an ideal choice. There are less expensive backpacks than the ULA offerings that work well on a limited budget.

I’m looking at the UAL Ohm for the Camino next year. How does this differ from the Circuit? My aim is to carry as few lbs as possible without going totally frameless

 

[davebugg]

I’m looking at the UAL Ohm for the Camino next year. How does this differ from the Circuit? My aim is to carry as few lbs as possible without going totally frameless

The Ohm does not have any frame, has a smaller capacity bag and pockets, and has a much lower practical (not spec'd) weight limit than does the Circuit, which incorporates and internal frame.

The shoulder harness and hipbelts are the same. If you can keep your total pack weight under 18 pounds (lower is better) then there is less advantage to having a backpack with a frame.

The shape of the bag and the rigidity of its structure with the Ohm is a function of the stiffness of the backpad, plus the method and order of how to load it.

The Ohm is further assisted by various compression straps which helps to 'compact' the load so it lies closer to your back and resists allowing the backpack sag outward, which puts unnecessary strain on your neck and shoulders.

The Circuit shares a lot of the same functionality as the Ohm, but the frame allows you to more comfortably carry the max weight load that ULA states in the specifications.

Besides gear testing both the Ohm and Circuit for ULA for quality control during actual use, I have used both backpacks, as well as the big brother, the Catalyst.

If you decide to try one of the ULA packs, you do have plenty of time to evaluate it. They are very good at accepting returns within their stated time frame.

If you have any further concerns or questions, you can reach me through the Private Messaging function on this Forum. Just click on my name or avatar and a box will open up. Click on 'start a conversation' and that will allow you to get in touch with me, or anyone else, directly.

 

[HeidiL]

I'm going to look for a new backpack today with my son, who spent a lot of time researching what is available and possible last year, when he wanted a bigger pack.

My requirements:

• good fit, with the right back length
• at least 60 l
• light
• well padded hip belt that fits me
• at least three pockets
• somewhere to put rain coat and rain cover accessible from the outside
• sturdy tightening straps at the top
• comfortable shoulder straps, even when carrying MUCH more than my normal 6-8 kg
• chest strap than can be moved up and down

What I would like in addition:

• exterior net pocket
• the possibility to hoist the inside bottom of the pack up a bit
• clear colour (visibility when road walking)
• a whistle in the chest strap

I wonder what else he is going to tell me I need - and I do hope we'll find the perfect pack today, even if I'm not going off walking right away.

 

[dick bird]

I bought this ultralight backpack, it is a 68L ULA Circuit from this place

Circuit

Lets’ face it, every mother has a favorite child – ours is the Circuit. Weighing in at just over two pounds, we don’t think there’s a pack out there that

www.ula-equipment.com

i have been using it to train and it is comfortable.
In your experience what do you think about this pack for the camino?
I never hiked with a backpack before so i am looking to check if anyone here know if this is a good pack. Rei have smaller ones (30-40l) but it is not as light as this one. Should i keep the lighter one or buy another smaller one?

If it is comfortable you have answered your own question. And as for size - if you have spare room in your pack, so what? If you can't fit everything, that is a problem, so I would go for it. Especially as the smaller packs are heavier - what is the point of a pack that is both smaller and heavier?.

 

[Renascer]

If it is comfortable you have answered your own question. And as for size - if you have spare room in your pack, so what? If you can't fit everything, that is a problem, so I would go for it. Especially as the smaller packs are heavier - what is the point of a pack that is both smaller and heavier?.

That is what i decided indeed. Works just fine.

 

[maruska89]

My daughter-in-law carried the Osprey Exos48, a more ultra-lite version on the Camino, but left the top piece at home. She loved it and the extra room, but did not fill it packed tight. A few souveniers purchased in Santiago stuffed in and still fit in the overhead on the plane going home. Going larger isn't necessaily all bad. She intended to use this more generous "size" on other backpacking trips at home without having to purchase a second backpack.

I just bought this pack and love it. The fit is awesome for me. I was going to go with the Kyte but it just did't feel as good as the Exos. They didn't have the women's version, the Eja in my size so I tried the Exos and fell in love. I am planning on leaving the top pouch at home as well. And I also liked that it was a bit bigger than needed for future backpacking hiking trips near home.

 

[VNwalking]

I am thinking i will go with this one.

I have an 48L Osprey, and love it. I never fill it, so packing and unpacking is a very relaxed affair.

So I think you're fine with staying with the bigger pack. There's sometimes an attitude of sneering at bigger packs, as though there's more virtue in having to jam everything in a smaller space. Bah humbug to that, I say.

Go with what's comfortable, and if the pack is large, just cultivate discipline about what you haul along with you. With the same stuff packed in them, a lighter large pack versus a heavier one with smaller capacity? The lighter pack wins hands down.

 

[Vacajoe]

This fellow did over 100kms with a tiny backpack and two Trader Joe’s grocery bags. Goes to show that everyone has different needs and tolerances.

 

[peregrino_tom]

That is what i decided indeed. Works just fine.

And when, early in the morning in the albergue dormitory, pilgrims all around are huffing and puffing as they try to squeeze/knee-in their sleeping bags into tiny compression sacks, Renascar will calmly fold over a bag a couple of times, ease it gently into the capacious CIRCUIT and stroll out into the sunrise...

 

[trecile]

I'm curious if @Renascer went on Camino. She started a flurry of posts at the start of the summer, but hasn't been here since July...

 

[domigee]

The Camino is not technical. Just walking, not backpacking. Definitely no need to research and ponder on backpacks very much. People successfully walk the Camino with all manner of packs.

The first backpack I ever bought - to walk the Camino - was a (very) cheap pack from Lidl Did the trick, had no problems with it (I did keep it very light) and walked from St Jean to Fisterra that year.
i ignored all the ‘technical’ advice on here as of course, I was only to walk the Camino ONCE. Haha!

 

[maruska89]

I have an 48L Osprey, and love it. I never fill it, so packing and unpacking is a very relaxed affair.

So I think you're fine with staying with the bigger pack. There's sometimes an attitude of sneering at bigger packs, as though there's more virtue in having to jam everything in a smaller space. Bah humbug to that, I say.

Go with what's comfortable, and if the pack is large, just cultivate discipline about what you haul along with you. With the same stuff packed in them, a lighter large pack versus a heavier one with smaller capacity? The lighter pack wins hands down.

I do agree with the slight attitude part. I just purchased a lightweight 48 L so that I can use it for backpacking trips at home, and not have to buy another pack. Comfort and lightness win over size I think.

 

[wabana]

Wow a lot of opinions here strong opinion! I took an Osprey anti gravity 50 L but did not bring the top part that adds another 5 L. The package self weighs 3.5 pounds but considering the comfort of the hip belt straps and ventilation system for my back I would do it all over again with the same size. For those that say it’s way too big nobody says you have to fill it up all the way I truly appreciated comfortably fitting everything inside the pack including my walking poles for the flights. This pack also is a maximum 1 pound heavier than B 30 and 40 L sizes. A very minimal price to pay for comfort and ventilation. At the end of the day make sure you have a comfortable pack and I would rather have too big then too small. As I said before the actual 1 pound pack waves is a very small price to pay for something you were going to wear for 40 straight days! The other positives of my pack versus others many others I observed and inspected is the pockets on the belt are awesome and it has angled side pockets toward the back each of which accommodated a 1/2 L water bottle. Again my opinion is it is just awesome for a lengthy trek - like the Camino.

 

[abercroft]

If your upper body fits within the 'trampoline' mesh back panel so that there is no rubbing or pressure points from the edges of the back panel, it is a comfortable backpack. I have not really found it to be superior in comfort for back issues over all other backpacks, but it is comfortable.

Outside of someone not 'fitting' the mesh back panel, the largest negative is weight, as you pointed out. It is double the weight of other quality backpacks around the same price point, which offer similar performance, comfort, and sometimes with better usability. Of course, if you are transporting the bag, weight is not an issue

The capacity (not size) is not really an issue, other than the added weight due to more material used.

Some unique things about the Atmos, and some other Osprey backpacks, are the methods they developed for adjusting the torso length with the shoulder harness assembly, and the hipbelt sizing.

Their torso length adjustability makes fine tuning the torso length fairly easy for those who are 'in-between' torso sizes of Osprey backpacks. The hipbelt adjustment tends to eliminate the need to purchase and install a new hipbelt if you go from a size Small hipbelt to a size Large. And vice versa.

There is nothing wrong with the Atmos, and a lot that is right. That same assessment would apply to a number of backpacks, too.

Feel free to contact me if i can be of help.

Hi, you sound like you know what you’re talking about…. Here’s a question:
any advice for a woman who has had surgery on her shoulders and they hurt quite easily.
Any particular exercise I can do to target the right muscles?

 

[Former member 99290]

So I think you're fine with staying with the bigger pack. There's sometimes an attitude of sneering at bigger packs, as though there's more virtue in having to jam everything in a smaller space. Bah humbug to that, I say.

Go with what's comfortable, and if the pack is large, just cultivate discipline about what you haul along with you. With the same stuff packed in them, a lighter large pack versus a heavier one with smaller capacity? The lighter pack wins hands down.

I like this ... After a few caminos, although I liked my pack, I switched to a smaller one - purely because I had to acknowledge the harsh truth that I had next to zero self discipline and seemed always to be adding 'just one more thing'. I am pleased to say that I have now evolved to a point where even my smaller pack is not bursting at the seams.

 

[dick bird]

Hi, you sound like you know what you’re talking about…. Here’s a question:
any advice for a woman who has had surgery on her shoulders and they hurt quite easily.
Any particular exercise I can do to target the right muscles?

I suspect Davebugg is going so say what I am going to say: consult a really good physiotherapist.

 

[wabana]

I weighed in b4 on this thread (LOL). I just returned Oct 24. -Frances…..Used my Osprey 50L Anti Gravity. After 18 days my body got used to my ‘program’ and I never thought about the weight at all. Everything fit INSIDE. As stated b4 this pack is only 1lb more than the 30-40L so who’s kidding who? I’m glad I had the room ( to spare) … Go for overall comfort (ventilation, hip belt, front pockets. 2x 0.5L water sleeves..etc etc….and don’t overthink it….. the anti gravity feature really worked, doc. Comfort + Flexibility = Simple concept

 

[davebugg]

Hi, you sound like you know what you’re talking about…. Here’s a question:
any advice for a woman who has had surgery on her shoulders and they hurt quite easily.
Any particular exercise I can do to target the right muscles?

Hi, abecroft. . . I sent you a PM (Private Message). It will show up as a notification on the 'envelope' icon on the blue menu bar which is located at the top of the page.

 

[gcsz]

Just back from the Portugues, 30L Gregory Zulu was just right.

I was at 5kg/11lbs

Does that include the pack?

 

[uncletim]

Does that include the pack?

yes, that was with the pack, not the lightest 30L pack, but very comfortable. not sure I need all that padding since I carry about 7lb/3kg now, looking for something a bit lighter. 30L is plenty for me and that includes my "poles on the plane". only had to check my pack once at the Santiago airport, they don't like poles. lol

open for pack suggestions.

If I ever get over this toothache I will walk, early Dec is fine!

 

[Anhalter]

open for pack suggestions.

Gossamer Gear does have a nice sale at the moment and the Kumo is a very well respected frameless backpack. (I used the Murmur, but that won't be comfortable at 7kg)
But then, backpacks are like shoes. Hard to recommend a specific piece...

 

[uncletim]

Gossamer Gear does have a nice sale at the moment and the Kumo is a very well respected frameless backpack. (I used the Murmur, but that won't be comfortable at 7kg)
But then, backpacks are like shoes. Hard to recommend a specific piece...

I usually have about 7lb/3kg. I like that pack, Dec 13th delivery and I may walk Dec 1st!

 

[Anhalter]

I usually have about 7lb/3kg. I like that pack, Dec 13th delivery and I may walk Dec 1st!

I was using the murmur with ca. 4-4.5kg baseweight. One of the problems i encountered was, that the volume of stuff i had inside was not enough to give the pack enough stability (since there is no frame and not much compression). I recommend taking that into consideration. i am now using a different, even larger pack, that i "stuffed" with very light foam mattress (2mm EVA, Gossamer sells something alike labeled "thinlight" i think). That reduces volume, adds padding and increases stability (and the complete pack is still just 500g). Use case for that matress is: sit pad, yoga mat and emergency sleeping pad.

With the weight you stated, i guess, an even smaller pack might work. You could look into running vests or smaller UL packs (for US i dont know many manufacturers, maybe look at Palante or Nashville Packs). For me personally, i found that while i dont need the volume of the pack, i like the size, the hipbelt (and pockets) and the option of adding stuff to the shoulder straps.

After writing: you might want to have a look at the Zpacks Nero or Sub-Nero as well.

 

[koknesis]

This is definitely a "first" for me to read on the forum.

Right, that’s why they call it “anti-gravity”

 

[katie@camino]

I'm going to disagree with @Anniesantiago a bit. I would go with the lighter weight but larger backpack - just don't fill it. Pack weight and comfort are more important than pack size.

Hard agree!

 

[uncletim]

I was using the murmur with ca. 4-4.5kg baseweight. One of the problems i encountered was, that the volume of stuff i had inside was not enough to give the pack enough stability (since there is no frame and not much compression). I recommend taking that into consideration. i am now using a different, even larger pack, that i "stuffed" with very light foam mattress (2mm EVA, Gossamer sells something alike labeled "thinlight" i think). That reduces volume, adds padding and increases stability (and the complete pack is still just 500g). Use case for that matress is: sit pad, yoga mat and emergency sleeping pad.

With the weight you stated, i guess, an even smaller pack might work. You could look into running vests or smaller UL packs (for US i dont know many manufacturers, maybe look at Palante or Nashville Packs). For me personally, i found that while i dont need the volume of the pack, i like the size, the hipbelt (and pockets) and the option of adding stuff to the shoulder straps.

After writing: you might want to have a look at the Zpacks Nero or Sub-Nero as well.

I didn't see hip belts on any of these offhand. might be an option on some.

the Gregory Miwok 24 might work at 840g, I wonder if my "poles on the plane" will fit?

24L might be getting a bit tight.

 

[HaveringRob]

Go with what is most comfortable. Lighter is more important than size. Better a bigger pack that is comfortable and lighter. You just don't fill it all the way up. It is nice to have the extra space to be able to pack it easily. Just use the compression straps to squash everything down.

 

[Moorwalker]

Hi, you sound like you know what you’re talking about…. Here’s a question:
any advice for a woman who has had surgery on her shoulders and they hurt quite easily.
Any particular exercise I can do to target the right muscles?

There are lots of videos online, however if you can, I would go to a physiotherapist who can analyze your problem and prescribe suitable exercises. Don't go to an osteopath unless they have considerable experience in dealing with post-surgery treatment, and don't even think about going to a chiropractor because their methods can cause serious damage.

 

[Loriene]

I have 2 ULA packs and I think they are the most comfortable packs I have ever tried. I have used the Circuit backpacking on the Appalachian Trail, so I agree that it may be bigger than you will need. I have never walked the Camino but I have ordered a Photon ULA pack, which is their smaller pack and hopefully it will be the right size.

After an exhausting search and many spreadsheets later, I landed with the Photon. It is incredibly comfortable and the design of the hip belt means you can easily access the pockets. Enjoy!

 

[Renascer]

Before my first Camino I bought a backpack that would be accepted as carry-on luggase. I still use it. Three reasons:

1. It has no room for unnecessary items. Saving weight.
2. I will not lose it in airport baggage handling: It is always with me.
3. I can leave the airport immediately.

Alex this is a very good point. What type of backpacks are accepted as carry-on? I might look into those if i get a new one. Such a great idea as i want to have the backpack with me on the plane, arrive and go. I researched and seems that Tap airline carry-on allowed size is
22 x 16 x 8”

 

[Albertagirl]

Alex this is a very good point. What type of backpacks are accepted as carry-on? I might look into those if i get a new one. Such a great idea as i want to have the backpack with me on the plane, arrive and go. I researched and seems that Tap airline carry-on allowed size is
22 x 16 x 8”

To my mind, this is an important issue. Ever since my backpack, containing my spare clothing and camping gear, was left behind on a flight from Vancouver to Auckland and I could not get it for a month, I have made sure to find out what airline requirements are and measure my backpack to fit. Airlines that fly Canada to Europe seem to require the same size of backpack for the overhead bins. It is recommended for long flights to pack a small "under the seat in front" bag with whatever you will need during the flight, so this can be planned to decrease the measurable size of your backpack. Make sure to wear your walking footwear and clothing for the flight, to be certain that you will have them when you arrive. You can trade them for sandals from your "under the seat in front" bag once you are airborne. Your pack can be removed from the plane by airlines staff if the overhead bins are full. Once it is no longer with you, it is supposed to be loaded into the plane with the baggage, but anything can happen. It can be time-consuming and expensive to have to replace your pack and all its contents before starting your camino.

 

[Renascer]

Alex this is a very good point. What type of backpacks are accepted as carry-on. I might look into those if i get a new one. Such a great idea as i want to have the backpack with me on the plane, arrive and go.

To my mind, this is an important issue. Ever since my backpack, containing my spare clothing and camping gear, was left behind on a flight from Vancouver to Auckland and I could not get it for a month, I have made sure to find out what airline requirements are and measure my backpack to fit. Airlines that fly Canada to Europe seem to require the same size of backpack for the overhead bins. It is recommended for long flights to pack a small "under the seat in front" bag with whatever you will need during the flight, so this can be planned to decrease the measurable size of your backpack. Make sure to wear your walking footwear and clothing for the flight, to be certain that you will have them when you arrive. You can trade them for sandals from your "under the seat in front" bag once you are airborne. Your pack can be removed from the plane by airlines staff if the overhead bins are full. Once it is no longer with you, it is supposed to be loaded into the plane with the baggage, but anything can happen. It can be time-consuming and expensive to have to replace your pack and all its contents before starting your camino.

Great advice Albertagirl. That is terrible. Thank you. Omg I just imagine already dealing with all this Covid drama and also a lost backpack? I hope i can find a few choices to try of small backpack lightweight for petite women that can be carry-on. Maybe around 30L now i am preferring NOT top loading. . If anyone like theirs let me know. If that helps I am flying this time with Tap.

 

[Craig Kiwi]

We’ll I suppose I could wade into this conversation a little bit late with a completely different view from most in this conversation. Some of you will gasp when I tell you that on the 3 Caminos I did (SJPDP to SDC) I used an 80l Osprey. I can hear the collective gasp of horror. But a quality pack this size weighs barely 500gms more than one of half that size. The equivalent of whether your water bottle is full or half full. So what’s the advantage of a larger pack?
When waking up half asleep in a dimly lit hostel. I simply throw everything into the pack and I’m gone. I’m enjoying my first coffee 2kms down the road. While those who have the small packs are focusing on packing everything tightly to within an inch of its life. So tightly packed that a snack bar creates anxiety of whether to consume it now or leave it behind!

Of course you need the discipline to not overpack. But neither do I suffer the 3-4 plastic bags swinging off the side of my pack. When my extras don’t fit. Or my baguette is being strapped on the outside of the pack in the sun or rain.
Because I travel from New Zealand my larger pack serves the purpose of further travel that I undertake before heading home. Room for a few souvenirs. Some gifts and we head home. All at the inconvenience of 500gms. ( less than 1lb)
Somehow I think there can be a competitiveness that belies the purpose of the Camino when we saturate ourselves with superficial goals like minimal packing. (Has anyone ever sent the dumped gear at the Roncevalles Albergue. After the Pyrenees people have already worked out what they can or cannot carry. The value of the abandoned items at Roncesvalles would fund a small 3rd world nation.)
So don’t sweat the pack size! But be disciplined about what goes in it. Enjoy the journey

 

[Camino Chrissy]

For me, it's not about the pack size or necessarily its weight, but about the possibility of an airline losing the backpack, if the need to catch a planned bus or train after getting off the aircraft has been pre-planned. I haven't always had enough time unless my luggage/pack is already with me.

 

[uncletim]

After an exhausting search and many spreadsheets later, I landed with the Photon. It is incredibly comfortable and the design of the hip belt means you can easily access the pockets. Enjoy!

I am interested in the Photon! too late for this trip. when I return I will drive up to ULA and look into one. Please let us know how it works out.

 

[alexwalker]

Alex this is a very good point. What type of backpacks are accepted as carry-on? I might look into those if i get a new one. Such a great idea as i want to have the backpack with me on the plane, arrive and go. I researched and seems that Tap airline carry-on allowed size is
22 x 16 x 8”

Just ask for a carry-on size backpack at the store. It is the pro way to go, IMHO. And forget carry-on sticks: If you need them, buy them when you arrive: Cheaper than bringing your own. As is with many other items: Much cheaper in Spain than at home.