Smallest_Sparrow
Life is rarely what you expect or believe it to be
- Time of past OR future Camino
- 2012: most of some, all of a few, a bit of others
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In 2013 I both saw signs (in several languages) stating the same thing in the Cathedral in Santander; no announcement (that I noticed/recall) but a security guard walked up to me to tell me. I would have thought the fact I was on my knees praying would have outweighed my backpack, but I thanked her in Spanish and explained my desire to attend Mass....so she let me stay.Falcon,
About 10-15 minuts before the service you are now asked to leave the cathedral if you are not there to worship. I saw it done in 2015 and again this year. It's done over the speakers. You will not be chased out with a broom, but the signal is clear: there is a time to worship and a time to visit.
when I attended the Good Friday Mass at San Agustin
I'm going to apologize in advance because I'm going to point out a technicality and I'm well aware not everyone likes it. There isn't mass on Good Friday.
That is in Santiago, we attended a mass at the cathedral in Pamplona held in a side chapel in the rear of the church. While the priest was conducting the service a deacon had to get up, walk into the main part of the church and quiet the tourists with the loudest and most intimidating "Shhh!" I ever heard.About 10-15 minuts before the service you are now asked to leave the cathedral if you are not there to worship.
Think this will be my last word on this subject seeing this technical approach is not what I think religion is about.
My only addition to the wealth of information above is to point out that Catholics genuflect or bow in the direction of the altar before they take their seat.
That might be theory. Common usage in Spain is another story..
At my daughters Catholic high school the priest entered the mass procession with a lap top held over his head instead of the bible. The laptop of course had the text of the bible called up. A modern touch and a sign of things to come. The kids appreciated it and were invited to call up the readings on their mobile phones.They're probably a little (or maybe a lot) more conservative in Spain than here in the U.S., but there are smartphone apps now that have the order of the Mass and the readings for the day, so it's not uncommon to see people using their phones to follow along rather than a printed missal (prayer book). Once people understand what they're doing, and not texting or checking on a football score, it's not that big of a deal. But I personally wouldn't use my phone for that purpose in a church where I thought it might be unacceptable or misunderstood.
But back to the original question regarding non-catholics receiving or not receiving communion, you can either not step forward and stay in your seat, or go forward with your arms crossed over your chest and receive a blessing. However, I'm not sure if the latter is common practice in other parts of the world, so just watch what others are doing.
Thanks for clarifying, Castilian. It's so easy to get caught up in one's own local customsThat might be theory. Common usage in Spain is another story. Many people that don't have to pass through the aisle in front of the altar don't genuflect or bow before they take their seat. Among the people that has to pass through the aisle in front of the altar there's more people that genuflect or bow but not everybody makes it.
Thanks for your answer, it is very nice to read that everyone should and can be treated with respect and kindness and welcomed with grace.I'm a protestant as well and while not particularly religious and found real comfort in attending the church services. One of my favorite experiences was while staying at the alberge En El Camino in Boadilla. I attended the services that evening at the 14th century Church of Santa Maria in this small farming village. The church is a basic no frill farm community church with wooden floor boards, it just felt so genuine after being in so many over the top grand cathedrals. At the end of the service the priest asked pilgrims to come up front. I indicated to the assistant I wasn't catholic but he insisted I go. The priest asked us each where we were from and announced it to the locals. He then gave us a pilgrims blessing and crossed our foreheads and gave me a very welcome and comforting hand on my head and pat on my shoulder. I really needed it at that point, it was so welcoming and warm.
When I said, "Not everyone is comfortable kneeling.....," I was not including myself; I was basing it on what some non-Catholics have told me. Also, not every church is equipped with kneelers, and I am finding it is getting increasingly difficult I get down to kneel on the floor, and then get up off the floor.
Think I'll just wait outside church next time to be safe.
@CastilianI know Castilian towns where on (some) weddings there were just a few men in church while the rest of them where waiting outside at the closest bar.
@Jakke
Before I went to Spain for my first camino last year, I learned the Lord's Prayer in Spanish. It is easy to learn and part of all Catholic worship services in which I have participated. Once it becomes familiar to you, you have a way of joining in the worship. I am adding the traditional English version below each line:
Padre nuestro,
Our Father
que estás en el cielo.
Who art in heaven
Santificado sea tu nombre.
Hallowed be Thy name.
Venga a nosotros tu reino.
Thy kingdom come
Hágase tu voluntad en la tierra como en el cielo.
Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Danos hoy nuestro pan de cada día.
Give us this day our daily bread.
Perdona nuestras ofensas,
And forgive us our trespasses,
como también nosotros perdonamos a los que nos ofenden.
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
No nos dejes caer en tentación y líbranos del mal.
Lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil.
The conclusion is shorter than in the usual Protestant version.
Blessings to you on your pilgrimage.
You made a mix of things there that caused a misundersntanding with @notion900 Each one of you is talking about different things. I'll try to explain it all.
Walking around would upset people in any Spanish church. In places like Santiago's Cathedral they may be resigned to it but it doesn't mean there isn't people upset by it.
Arriving a bit late (before the liturgy of the Word) is tolerated and it isn't too rare (i.e.: it happens in many masses that there's people that arrives a bit late). You just need to be quiet and discreet (e.g.: stay at a pew close to the entering door and not go all around the church making noise with your shoes to seat in the most far away pew).
Arriving at the liturgy of the Word might be embarrasing (the later, the more embarrasing) and not everybody is fine with it (i.e.: someone might be upset while others wouldn't be upset).
No one is expected to arrive after the liturgy of the Word except by mistake (e.g.: people that got wrong the starting time of the mass, people that go for other reasons and didn't know there was a mass...).
Leaving at communion time is tolerated and it isn't too rare either (i.e.: it happens in many masses that there's people that leaves at communion time).
If there was some chant right after mass (e.g.: the Salve Regina) or a novena or, in Christmas, the kissing of Child Jesus or.., it's tolerated too to leave when the mass is ended without waiting till the chant or the novena or the kissing of Child Jesus or... is ended. On Maundy Thursday and Good Friday, if you don't leave at communion time, you are expected to leave after the priest left to the sacristy.
Leaving before communion time is unexpected and very odd. If you had to make it for any reason be as discreet as possible to avoid having all the parishioners looking at you.
So, as @Anemone del Camino said, coming and going during service (meaning people come and go whenever they want and/or there's continuily people comming and going) isn't accepted and, as @notion900 said, to arrive (a bit) late and to leave at communion time isn't frowned on (and, as I said above, it isn't too rare).
P.S.: That's the common usage. Personal points of view of some priests may be different what means from time to time you hear at mass priests recalling the importance of attending all the mass (usually on days when too many people arrived late) but that's rare.
I'm Jewish and didn't encounter any issues along my 3-month Camino (France and Spain). I stayed in several donativos run by Catholic organizations and never felt uncomfortable. I bowed my head for grace and went to mass with the rest of my pilgrim friends; I engaged in animated (if not tipsy!) conversations with monks in Conques and a Catholic bishop over several days. And I never had to pretend to be anything or want to be anything other than Jewish.
A genuine interest in Catholic practices was much appreciated by every Catholic I met along the way.
Buen Camino!
We are all..
A lovely Peoples
Full of Loves,Life and Lights
Come from lands afar and tread the dust of ages
Look upon stars long moved, long dead that milenia of Peregrinos before have looked
And wondered
Who came before
Who comes after me
Here
We have that personified
Pigrims who have gone before who see
Those who are leaving
And some..sadly who have left.
Every Race,Creed and backround have all walked the Way
There are no limitations
There are no Religions
There are no Calls
Only the singular..clear voice that says
Come.
With muddy boots and tired brow
Much appreciated!
Shirts, salty and stained from the road
With troubled gaze look upon Santiagos face and the miles fall away
He called
You went
Nothing matters other than you answered
Everything else is mere detail.
That is what counts i think.
Be Blessed Pilgrim!
For who you are
What you are
And where you are
Tinkatinker, since I can distinctly hear the sound of a padlock being prepared I'd like to ask a question about the policy of locking or closing threads. It seems to happen more with discussions about religion than any other. I can understand that moderators want to ensure that discussions are temperate and that users treat each other with respect, but if one or two people overstep the mark why not take it up with them privately and directly rather than closing the entire discussion for everyone else?
I noticed that this was posted in the Variante Espiritual section, I din't know if it was by mistake, but in case it was meant to be in that sub-forum I would not worry as I doubt the OP will find many services to attend, let alone pilgrim blessings. Even at tne Armenteira monastery there was no mass but vespers, which were cancelled the evening I was there, replaced by a wedding.
Too funny! The Variante Espiritual is a 3 day detour or the Portuguese, but certainly has much less religious or spiritual components than the Frances, other than the fact that the river walk is like being in a Lord of th Rings movie, or that the boat ride is supposed to be the way St-James came in to Spain.If I remember correctly, this was my mistake. I did not realize then that the Variante Espiritual is an actual camino. I just presumed this was the right place to address more or less spiritual matters. This discussion has been informative and funny at times. Thanks!
not to mention the great early/late riser schismOnce @Tincatinker solves the footwear holy wars, then he can begin to address the rain-wear factionalism and the walking stick partisanship!
Seriously, though also a thank you to Tinca and the other mods...we cats are in at least a loosely structured herd, which makes this forum a joy to read (thankfully, since what else could I do waiting for my departure other than re-pack my backpack for the 101st time!)
I understand that it does not matter much whether you sit, kneel or stand. But just out of interest, is there some tacit convention about what is most appropriate if you don't want to kneel during the course of the service (ie Catholic and in Spain)? I don't remember where it was but I remember a service where some people knelt down, others sat down and others kept standing and it felt a bit confusing/somehow not right to me.
Bravo! An excellent post which exhibits a true spirit of ecumenism on many points.We should all be so open-minded and appreciative of the traditions of others.As a Protestant within a family of pastors in 5 generations, I have always had a split relationship with the Church, but not with the services.
25 yrs ago, I joined a Gregorian Schola Cantorum. We are singing pre Refomation material in Danish and sometimes Latin for educational purposes.
It was therefore a sheer deligt to encounter the Salve Regina as regular ingredient into mass in Spanish churches. I now always carry a copy of the Latin version in both my rucksacks.
I feel included when I come into a Catholic mass, I always find it important to greet the altar and remember why I´ve come and I delight in the togetherness of the crowd gathered in the beautiful room, knowing that it takes all kinds....when nationalities are called out we recognize each other as guest in a foreign place, but welcomed....
My favourite mass is taken in Carrion de los Condes, and when the sun is out, they will open the big doors and the light flood in.
We are living in a secular world when we work but somewhere there is a place for contemplation and introspection and I found both in the churches and Cathedrals, but also in the open on the Camino.
Not wearing any musical players, I enjoy my musical choir snippets or any music that occupy my mind...
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