As a Protestant...

[Smallest_Sparrow]

Falcon,

About 10-15 minuts before the service you are now asked to leave the cathedral if you are not there to worship. I saw it done in 2015 and again this year. It's done over the speakers. You will not be chased out with a broom, but the signal is clear: there is a time to worship and a time to visit.

In 2013 I both saw signs (in several languages) stating the same thing in the Cathedral in Santander; no announcement (that I noticed/recall) but a security guard walked up to me to tell me. I would have thought the fact I was on my knees praying would have outweighed my backpack, but I thanked her in Spanish and explained my desire to attend Mass....so she let me stay.

 

[SYates]

For foot/knee ailing pilgrims there is also the, perfectly acceptable, version of kneeling whilst your backside is still resting on the pew. You show respect but at the same time you don't have your full weight on your knees. Basically start by sitting down, slip gently forward and let your knees touch the 'knee rest' whilst your behind is still supported by the pew. Perfect pilgrims rest position in church.
Buen Camino, SY

 

[notion900]

I was brought up by Baptists and went to a CofE school. My policy in churches in Spain is very simple: I stand up when others do. I sit when others kneel and have never felt awkward doing so. I don't curtsey to the altar or cross myself, go near the holy water, and I don't go up for communion. And I get my cheek pinched by old ladies, so I must be doing OK.

 

[Castilian]

when I attended the Good Friday Mass at San Agustin

I'm going to apologize in advance because I'm going to point out a technicality and I'm well aware not everyone likes it. There isn't mass on Good Friday.

 

[SabsP]

I'm going to apologize in advance because I'm going to point out a technicality and I'm well aware not everyone likes it. There isn't mass on Good Friday.

Yes thank you for pointing it out , it is of course a service seeing there is no Consecration until the Easter Mass.

Then again please also take into consideration that english is not my native language so I tend to make errors.

All in all : Mass or Service, kneeling or sitting, Communion or not :
Where people of Goodwill come together to praise God and listen to his gospel I don't worry about semantics but try to focus on the broader meaning. And being part of a community.
Think this will be my last word on this subject seeing this technical approach is not what I think religion is about.

 

[SYates]

There are a lot of non-native speakers (including me) participating in this (for me) highly interesting thread ;-)
Just lets be gentle with each other and, if in doubt, assume the best intention ;-)
Buen Camino, SY

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

About 10-15 minuts before the service you are now asked to leave the cathedral if you are not there to worship.

That is in Santiago, we attended a mass at the cathedral in Pamplona held in a side chapel in the rear of the church. While the priest was conducting the service a deacon had to get up, walk into the main part of the church and quiet the tourists with the loudest and most intimidating "Shhh!" I ever heard.

 

[Castilian]

Think this will be my last word on this subject seeing this technical approach is not what I think religion is about.

I'm really sorry if you decide to leave the thread due to my well-intended comment and I would feel better if you didn't leave.

I'm used to make that comment because when I make it here in Spain, usually, people weren't aware of it (i.e.: they weren't aware there's no mass on Good Friday) and welcome the comment. Of course, I'm aware that technicalities aren't everyone's cup of tea and that's why I apologized in advance.

I don't pretend to turn the thread into a technical one. Except that comment and a brief one I made saying Roman Catholic rules don't stipulate blessings at communion time, I think the rest of what I wrote on this thread is based on common usage in Spain regardless what technicallity may say. I pretend to keep the same line (i.e.: talk about common usage regardless what technicallity may say) because I'm not a fan of technicallities and because I lack of knowledge to talk about technicallities (with a few odd exceptions).

Oh, and I'm not a native English speaker either so inaccuracies, wrong grammar usage, mixing of words and other mistakes in English language use may happen and indeed they happen on my posts (more frequently than I'd like, BTW). Thankfully people on the forum is nice enough as to not make of it a big deal.

Once said all that, let me apologize, once again, if my post annoyed you or if you didn't feel comfortable with it. My most sincere apologies.

 

[April Jo]

Hi Jakke. I think that because you were respectful and sensitive enough to ask your question in the first place, you will be absolutely fine in any Mass you attend.

My only addition to the wealth of information above is to point out that Catholics genuflect or bow in the direction of the altar before they take their seat. Without going into the theological reasons for that, I suggest that you may feel comfortable doing your own version of that before you sit down - or even just pausing respectfully before moving into the pew.

With both Protestants and Catholics in our family, my suggestion is to maybe "just nod your head once, slowly and respectfully - to Jesus - or God the Father - whatever is meaningful to you" before entering the pew.

God bless you - and Buen Camino.

 

[Castilian]

My only addition to the wealth of information above is to point out that Catholics genuflect or bow in the direction of the altar before they take their seat.

That might be theory. Common usage in Spain is another story. Many people that don't have to pass through the aisle in front of the altar don't genuflect or bow before they take their seat. Among the people that has to pass through the aisle in front of the altar there's more people that genuflect or bow but not everybody makes it.

 

[notion900]

That might be theory. Common usage in Spain is another story..

I think that sums up the whole discussion!

 

[Jacobus]

They're probably a little (or maybe a lot) more conservative in Spain than here in the U.S., but there are smartphone apps now that have the order of the Mass and the readings for the day, so it's not uncommon to see people using their phones to follow along rather than a printed missal (prayer book). Once people understand what they're doing, and not texting or checking on a football score, it's not that big of a deal. But I personally wouldn't use my phone for that purpose in a church where I thought it might be unacceptable or misunderstood.

But back to the original question regarding non-catholics receiving or not receiving communion, you can either not step forward and stay in your seat, or go forward with your arms crossed over your chest and receive a blessing. However, I'm not sure if the latter is common practice in other parts of the world, so just watch what others are doing.

At my daughters Catholic high school the priest entered the mass procession with a lap top held over his head instead of the bible. The laptop of course had the text of the bible called up. A modern touch and a sign of things to come. The kids appreciated it and were invited to call up the readings on their mobile phones.

 

[notion900]

At Easter in Malaga I saw a large crucifix being carried in a procession that had a GoPro affixed above Christ's head.

 

[April Jo]

That might be theory. Common usage in Spain is another story. Many people that don't have to pass through the aisle in front of the altar don't genuflect or bow before they take their seat. Among the people that has to pass through the aisle in front of the altar there's more people that genuflect or bow but not everybody makes it.

Thanks for clarifying, Castilian. It's so easy to get caught up in one's own local customs

 

[Ian and Helen Miller]

I'm a protestant as well and while not particularly religious and found real comfort in attending the church services. One of my favorite experiences was while staying at the alberge En El Camino in Boadilla. I attended the services that evening at the 14th century Church of Santa Maria in this small farming village. The church is a basic no frill farm community church with wooden floor boards, it just felt so genuine after being in so many over the top grand cathedrals. At the end of the service the priest asked pilgrims to come up front. I indicated to the assistant I wasn't catholic but he insisted I go. The priest asked us each where we were from and announced it to the locals. He then gave us a pilgrims blessing and crossed our foreheads and gave me a very welcome and comforting hand on my head and pat on my shoulder. I really needed it at that point, it was so welcoming and warm.

Thanks for your answer, it is very nice to read that everyone should and can be treated with respect and kindness and welcomed with grace.

 

[smj6]

As a Protestant, I've been privileged to work, live & pray with Catholics (& other Christian denominations) in various countries over the past 45 years, including with Catholic nuns and Jesuit priests in Rome in the late 70s, and ecumenical retreats in Switzerland during the last 15 years.
As long as I've shown respect to fellow worshippers, I've never felt that I was in the wrong place.
A lot of great advice (& fascinating information) has been given in this thread, but if you come away with anything @Jakke, I think it is to respect the worshippers around you (& find a little old lady to sit behind )
Buen Camino Suzanne

 

[JenCamino]

When I said, "Not everyone is comfortable kneeling.....," I was not including myself; I was basing it on what some non-Catholics have told me. Also, not every church is equipped with kneelers, and I am finding it is getting increasingly difficult I get down to kneel on the floor, and then get up off the floor.

I followed the adage of "do whatever the local people do," including the kneeling. But I know not everyone is comfortable doing that. So what I wanted to mention, for those conscientious non-Catholics who don't want to offend anyone, was that I noticed that even some seemingly-Catholic people did not kneel every time. I say "seemingly-Catholic" because I don't actually know if they were Catholic, but to my (non-Catholic) eyes they looked like local people and they seemed to know all the rituals, songs, prayers, etc. of the mass.

Perhaps some didn't kneel due to age/infirmity, I don't know. Others, sometimes looked as if they were sitting in prayer instead. No one gave any dirty looks or anything like that.

Anyway, my point is to reassure a worried non-Catholic who chooses not to kneel for whatever reason, that they would probably not be the *only one* not kneeling, and probably not offend anyone, if they just kept sitting instead. I think keeping a respectful/attentive attitude is the most important part.

P.S. Thanks to the moderators for allowing this discussion about politeness and basic protocols in churches. I think it's a topic most pilgrims worry about, because they want to be able to visit these spaces and be respectful and not cause offense. I can totally understand not wanting to include any "religious debate" on the forum, which is a totally different thing.

 

[JohnMcM]

Phew!

I am absolutely shattered, worn-out and exhausted.

I read all the posts here one-at-time, imagined myself at worship and tried do each variation of standing, kneeling and sitting each time.

Think I'll just wait outside church next time to be safe.

Buen (worshipping-in-whatever-way you-can) Camino

 

[SYates]

Regarding kneeling - It is also widely understood by the kind people that live alongside the Camino that kneeling (and getting up again!!!) can be too much for wary pilgrim legs ;-) Buen Camino, SY

 

[Castilian]

Think I'll just wait outside church next time to be safe.

I know Castilian towns where on (some) weddings there were just a few men in church while the rest of them where waiting outside at the closest bar.

 

[Albertagirl]

I know Castilian towns where on (some) weddings there were just a few men in church while the rest of them where waiting outside at the closest bar.

@Castilian
I have also seen men outside the church in a Sunday mass in a small village on the camino. Six women attended the Sunday service, but a quantity of men (I am uncertain how many) were outside the church both before and after the service. They seemed to want to chat with the priest, who was delayed in conversations with men both before and after the service, but they did not enter the church.

 

[Castilian]

There was (and there's still) people that had (and have) the idea that mass (and most -if not all- things about religion) was (is) a women's thing. (Some) Men with that point of view accompanied women (wife, female family members, female guests, female frieds...) to the church but instead of getting inside to attend whatever religious act was going to take place, those men waited outside (many times in the nearest bar) till women were done with their things. Nowadays, you may see it yet on some places but it's getting more usual to don't bother to accompany someone to church if you don't plan to attend whatever religious act is going to take place (just going -at most- at the stimated ending time of the religious act to meet the person who attended).

 

[SYates]

Reminds me of a time on the Via de la Plata this year when the priest praised those men that had actually accompanied their wives to church and stayed for mass ;-) Buen Camino, SY

 

[Anemone del Camino]

I noticed that this was posted in the Variante Espiritual section, I din't know if it was by mistake, but in case it was meant to be in that sub-forum I would not worry as I doubt the OP will find many services to attend, let alone pilgrim blessings. Even at tne Armenteira monastery there was no mass but vespers, which were cancelled the evening I was there, replaced by a wedding.

 

[William Garza]

Kneeling
You do if you can.
I sit because if i kneel, the back issues i have will compete with my attention.

Its understood that if your injured,infirm or aged..your good.
Its the effort above all that counts..the folks around me know my varuous issues.

Those wonderfull,wondrous little old ladies,widows some
Will give me a hand,,or arm to get up
Give an appraising look and approve.

Country life does this hardening to these Women.
The Priest or Deacon will walk back and serve those that are infirm.

Its not your lack of knowledge nor fear of making mistakes..
It that you try your best and show up.

Go in Sir..your heart is beautiful and in the right place
Find a measure of rest and peace.

 

[Jakke]

@Jakke
Before I went to Spain for my first camino last year, I learned the Lord's Prayer in Spanish. It is easy to learn and part of all Catholic worship services in which I have participated. Once it becomes familiar to you, you have a way of joining in the worship. I am adding the traditional English version below each line:

Padre nuestro,
Our Father
que estás en el cielo.
Who art in heaven
Santificado sea tu nombre.
Hallowed be Thy name.
Venga a nosotros tu reino.
Thy kingdom come
Hágase tu voluntad en la tierra como en el cielo.
Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Danos hoy nuestro pan de cada día.
Give us this day our daily bread.
Perdona nuestras ofensas,
And forgive us our trespasses,
como también nosotros perdonamos a los que nos ofenden.
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
No nos dejes caer en tentación y líbranos del mal.
Lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil.

The conclusion is shorter than in the usual Protestant version.
Blessings to you on your pilgrimage.

Very helpful. Thanks!

 

[Jakke]

You made a mix of things there that caused a misundersntanding with @notion900 Each one of you is talking about different things. I'll try to explain it all.

Walking around would upset people in any Spanish church. In places like Santiago's Cathedral they may be resigned to it but it doesn't mean there isn't people upset by it.

Arriving a bit late (before the liturgy of the Word) is tolerated and it isn't too rare (i.e.: it happens in many masses that there's people that arrives a bit late). You just need to be quiet and discreet (e.g.: stay at a pew close to the entering door and not go all around the church making noise with your shoes to seat in the most far away pew).
Arriving at the liturgy of the Word might be embarrasing (the later, the more embarrasing) and not everybody is fine with it (i.e.: someone might be upset while others wouldn't be upset).
No one is expected to arrive after the liturgy of the Word except by mistake (e.g.: people that got wrong the starting time of the mass, people that go for other reasons and didn't know there was a mass...).

Leaving at communion time is tolerated and it isn't too rare either (i.e.: it happens in many masses that there's people that leaves at communion time).

If there was some chant right after mass (e.g.: the Salve Regina) or a novena or, in Christmas, the kissing of Child Jesus or.., it's tolerated too to leave when the mass is ended without waiting till the chant or the novena or the kissing of Child Jesus or... is ended. On Maundy Thursday and Good Friday, if you don't leave at communion time, you are expected to leave after the priest left to the sacristy.

Leaving before communion time is unexpected and very odd. If you had to make it for any reason be as discreet as possible to avoid having all the parishioners looking at you.

So, as @Anemone del Camino said, coming and going during service (meaning people come and go whenever they want and/or there's continuily people comming and going) isn't accepted and, as @notion900 said, to arrive (a bit) late and to leave at communion time isn't frowned on (and, as I said above, it isn't too rare).

P.S.: That's the common usage. Personal points of view of some priests may be different what means from time to time you hear at mass priests recalling the importance of attending all the mass (usually on days when too many people arrived late) but that's rare.

This helps. Thanks!

 

[Jakke]

I'm Jewish and didn't encounter any issues along my 3-month Camino (France and Spain). I stayed in several donativos run by Catholic organizations and never felt uncomfortable. I bowed my head for grace and went to mass with the rest of my pilgrim friends; I engaged in animated (if not tipsy!) conversations with monks in Conques and a Catholic bishop over several days. And I never had to pretend to be anything or want to be anything other than Jewish.

A genuine interest in Catholic practices was much appreciated by every Catholic I met along the way.

Buen Camino!

That is what I am hoping for as well. Shalom to you!

 

[Jakke]

We are all..
A lovely Peoples
Full of Loves,Life and Lights

Come from lands afar and tread the dust of ages
Look upon stars long moved, long dead that milenia of Peregrinos before have looked
And wondered

Who came before
Who comes after me

Here
We have that personified

Pigrims who have gone before who see

Those who are leaving
And some..sadly who have left.

Every Race,Creed and backround have all walked the Way

There are no limitations
There are no Religions
There are no Calls

Only the singular..clear voice that says
Come.

With muddy boots and tired brow


Much appreciated!
Shirts, salty and stained from the road
With troubled gaze look upon Santiagos face and the miles fall away

He called
You went

Nothing matters other than you answered
Everything else is mere detail.

That is what counts i think.

Be Blessed Pilgrim!

For who you are
What you are
And where you are

 

[Scott Sweeney]

Remember, the Catholic church, the individual parish's welcomes all those who believe in our Lord to worship. What it does not allow is receiving communion if you are not a practicing Catholic. So please pray often be it in a Catholic church, a Protestant church or on top of O'Cebreiro....your prayers are heard.

Enjoy your Camino, enjoy life at 3 mph.


and your

 

[vegoodrich]

In my experience, as a spiritual but not religious person, the Camino today is the best of all faiths. I went into every church (that was unlocked) and sat in respectfully on a number of masses. I was told by a priest that my work was important 'work of the soul' and it did not matter my faith. Another priest reminded us of the way going back before the start of christianity and told me he thought the catholic church was the group currently quested to protect it's importance to humanity. It was a very accepting, amazing experience in terms of religion and spirituality for me.

 

[stevenjarvis]

Tinkatinker, since I can distinctly hear the sound of a padlock being prepared I'd like to ask a question about the policy of locking or closing threads. It seems to happen more with discussions about religion than any other. I can understand that moderators want to ensure that discussions are temperate and that users treat each other with respect, but if one or two people overstep the mark why not take it up with them privately and directly rather than closing the entire discussion for everyone else?

Ahh The Voice of Reason, matched by Tinkatinkers commendably even handed Pagan moderation !

 

[Jakke]

I noticed that this was posted in the Variante Espiritual section, I din't know if it was by mistake, but in case it was meant to be in that sub-forum I would not worry as I doubt the OP will find many services to attend, let alone pilgrim blessings. Even at tne Armenteira monastery there was no mass but vespers, which were cancelled the evening I was there, replaced by a wedding.

If I remember correctly, this was my mistake. I did not realize then that the Variante Espiritual is an actual camino. I just presumed this was the right place to address more or less spiritual matters. This discussion has been informative and funny at times. Thanks!

 

[Anemone del Camino]

If I remember correctly, this was my mistake. I did not realize then that the Variante Espiritual is an actual camino. I just presumed this was the right place to address more or less spiritual matters. This discussion has been informative and funny at times. Thanks!

Too funny! The Variante Espiritual is a 3 day detour or the Portuguese, but certainly has much less religious or spiritual components than the Frances, other than the fact that the river walk is like being in a Lord of th Rings movie, or that the boat ride is supposed to be the way St-James came in to Spain.

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

Once @Tincatinker solves the footwear holy wars, then he can begin to address the rain-wear factionalism and the walking stick partisanship!

Seriously, though also a thank you to Tinca and the other mods...we cats are in at least a loosely structured herd, which makes this forum a joy to read (thankfully, since what else could I do waiting for my departure other than re-pack my backpack for the 101st time!)

not to mention the great early/late riser schism

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

Re comings and goings: Others may come late or leave early, but I don't know the reasons--perhaps everyone knows that particular family has a child with special, unpredictable needs, or that woman is working three jobs since her husband died, etc...but I am a stranger and they are welcoming me into their parish church, where they have worshiped their entire life. So I do my best to come on time, be polite, smile, and thank everyone for their generosity. I'm also kind of adsorbed with the business at hand in church, so couldn't tell you when people come and go if my life depended on it.

 

[domigee]

I understand that it does not matter much whether you sit, kneel or stand. But just out of interest, is there some tacit convention about what is most appropriate if you don't want to kneel during the course of the service (ie Catholic and in Spain)? I don't remember where it was but I remember a service where some people knelt down, others sat down and others kept standing and it felt a bit confusing/somehow not right to me.

Very confusing, until I recently asked a Spanish friend to clarify ! We'd both attended a Catholic Colegio Mayor whilst at Uni and it was simple then... I wondered if things had changed. Well no, she said, but people do it very much their way now i.e. my knees hurt so I don't kneel, I just stay up or I'm too frail to kneel so I sit down....
I just love the way it is done in Spain, yes people often (always, even! ) turn up late for Mass in my local church but at least they come.... All the Masses on a Sunday are well attended and there are many.
I have also been guilty of entering a church not knowing there was a Mass going on. Happened in Santander recently, went early as we wanted to light a candle for my friend's father as it was the anniversary of his death. If it is done discreetly, no hassle and no, we didn't stay for Communion, sadly we had a flight to catch

 

[Stivandrer]

As a Protestant within a family of pastors in 5 generations, I have always had a split relationship with the Church, but not with the services.
25 yrs ago, I joined a Gregorian Schola Cantorum. We are singing pre Refomation material in Danish and sometimes Latin for educational purposes.
It was therefore a sheer deligt to encounter the Salve Regina as regular ingredient into mass in Spanish churches. I now always carry a copy of the Latin version in both my rucksacks.
I feel included when I come into a Catholic mass, I always find it important to greet the altar and remember why I´ve come and I delight in the togetherness of the crowd gathered in the beautiful room, knowing that it takes all kinds....when nationalities are called out we recognize each other as guest in a foreign place, but welcomed....
My favourite mass is taken in Carrion de los Condes, and when the sun is out, they will open the big doors and the light flood in.
We are living in a secular world when we work but somewhere there is an appropriate place for contemplation and introspection and I found both in the churches and Cathedrals of Spain, but also in the outdoor open on the Camino.
Not wearing any musical players, I enjoy my musical choir snippets or any music that occupy my mind...

 

[Kanga]

A resurrection of an old thread (@Stivandrer the previous post was nearly a year ago) - so a reminder to everyone that discussion of religion is not allowed. We do allow some leeway to provide straightforward information and personal recollections, but no opinions, no preaching or proselytising.

 

[April Jo]

Happy singing, Stivandrer!

 

[jmcarp]

As a Protestant within a family of pastors in 5 generations, I have always had a split relationship with the Church, but not with the services.
25 yrs ago, I joined a Gregorian Schola Cantorum. We are singing pre Refomation material in Danish and sometimes Latin for educational purposes.
It was therefore a sheer deligt to encounter the Salve Regina as regular ingredient into mass in Spanish churches. I now always carry a copy of the Latin version in both my rucksacks.
I feel included when I come into a Catholic mass, I always find it important to greet the altar and remember why I´ve come and I delight in the togetherness of the crowd gathered in the beautiful room, knowing that it takes all kinds....when nationalities are called out we recognize each other as guest in a foreign place, but welcomed....
My favourite mass is taken in Carrion de los Condes, and when the sun is out, they will open the big doors and the light flood in.
We are living in a secular world when we work but somewhere there is a place for contemplation and introspection and I found both in the churches and Cathedrals, but also in the open on the Camino.
Not wearing any musical players, I enjoy my musical choir snippets or any music that occupy my mind...

Bravo! An excellent post which exhibits a true spirit of ecumenism on many points.We should all be so open-minded and appreciative of the traditions of others.

 

[Jakke]

This is an old, pre-camino thread. My own thoughts are now informed by both the C.P. and the VdlP. That means lots of great experiences and discussions. To fellow Protestants: be sensitive, be polite, and you'll be blessed!