Are you pilgrim or walker?

[t2andreo]

Wow, if this is staying out of the debate, what is it like when you are engaged?

When I truly get "spun up" I am usually censored. It has only happened a couple of times.

I am learning to be passionate, yet how to pull punches when appropriate. Also, I am blessed with an advanced education, a full, professional career that involved public speaking and engagement in negotiations internationally.

Along the way, I accumulated a good command of the English language (North American variant) and I am learning to use it more skillfully. From my travels, I also picked up a profound respect for other people, cultures, societies, and languages. It all works well in my favor as I move forward.

There are usually several approaches to making a point on the forum. Sometimes a hammer is the appropriate tool for a job. But if it is the only tool in your toolbox, all your tasks start to look like nails...

As I mentioned in another dialog, like Da Vinci's "Vitruvian Man," I am very much a work in progress. The forum, and indeed all of you, are key to my development.

Thank you!

 

[MTtoCamino]

We all have an idea of what we consider a pilgrim, I just wish I could have met John Wayne "well Pilgrim you gonna talk all day or"

I think we do very well for the most part let's keep trying.

 

[Damien Reynolds]

All I know is I come back to Spain each year, walk 500 miles or so, and in so doing I am spiritually enthused. After the trip I find myself kinder to strangers, more eager to explore unknown places, more understanding of international personalities. And significantly lighter.

Both?

 

[Wokabaut_Meri]

Walker, Pilgrim, Hiker ... when one has the heart in the proper place and acts accordingly... what difference would it make?

I agree. All merely labels...

As poet Tom Savage once wrote:
Greater vehicle, lesser vehicle
No matter!
All vehicles will be towed away at owner's expense

 

[SabsP]

Hi SabineP & GettingThere

first, english is not my language so I apologize for the error.
Secondly, discussions started in the direction of the stones, how large stones ....... so I wanted to bring back on topic and wrote this post on pilgrims and walker.
Also, historically, for centuries, the Camino passed pilgrims,
now we have and hikers or walker. For centuries pilgrims don't use benefits that we now have. therefore I write about pilgrims what they done in historically view.

We come from different countries and we have different views, which to me is normal. And it is normally that these differences appreciate and respect.

Bota

English is not my native language either so when answering a sensitive forumquestion I try to think even better how to formulate and write down my words in order to not give the wrong idea.

Like other posters already said : would be nice to see you back here in this thread after you made your pilgrimage/ Camino / walk/spiritual challenge/ religious experience or the zillion other reasons to go to Santiago de Compostela. You might surprise yourself what new insights you discover on the long road.

And btw the medieval rich people ( when they did not give a poor man the money to do the pilgrimage as a substitute ) also slept and ate in the better inns.
Hey, they even got trasnsportation.

And this will be my last word on this subject here.

 

[Kurt5280]

That's what greeted me on my first Camino upon reaching the top of Alto del Perdon.

I left a Native American necklace on the dog...because I missed my dog so much!

 

[dougfitz]

I left a Native American necklace on the dog...because I missed my dog so much!

Why would this be different to any other act that alters an art work? I wonder whether the sculptor would be happy with this appropriation of his or her artistic endeavour, although I suppose sculptors with publicly displayed work might be used to it.

 

[Kurt5280]

Why would this be different to any other act that alters an art work?

The Spanish lady at the food truck gave me a free hot chocolate because she liked it so much...but my guess is that some local kid is wearing it now.

 

[Botaivica]

English is not my native language either so when answering a sensitive forumquestion I try to think even better how to formulate and write down my words in order to not give the wrong idea.

Like other posters already said : would be nice to see you back here in this thread after you made your pilgrimage/ Camino / walk/spiritual challenge/ religious experience or the zillion other reasons to go to Santiago de Compostela. You might surprise yourself what new insights you discover on the long road.

And btw the medieval rich people ( when they did not give a poor man the money to do the pilgrimage as a substitute ) also slept and ate in the better inns.
Hey, they even got trasnsportation.

And this will be my last word on this subject here.

Hi SabineP

Of course, I will continue to write here after my Camino, why not?

Our opinions may not arrange, but we can discuss. Own judgment you/me do not have to change, but you/me can be upgrading.

Pilgrims have a history. They are described in novels, celebrated in poems. One dear to me (I'm 65):

When You Are Old
by William Butler Yeats

When you are old and grey and full of sleep,
And nodding by the fire, take down this book,
And slowly read, and dream of the soft look
Your eyes had once, and of their shadows deep;

How many loved your moments of glad grace,
And loved your beauty with love false or true,
But one man loved the pilgrim soul in you,
And loved the sorrows of your changing face;

And bending down beside the glowing bars,
Murmur, a little sadly, how Love fled
And paced upon the mountains overhead
And hid his face amid a crowd of stars.



Maybe I'm idealizing pilgrims, but I'll check this on May / June on Camino.

Bota

 

[peregrina2000]

As to the original question, I tend towards ambivalence as, for me personally, it appears to not be a fixed condition either way.

Regarding sacredness of places, I side strongly with Wendell Berry (I think!) who observed: "Every place is sacred until we desecrate it."

B

Hi, B, your reference reminded me how much I like the poem in which Wendell Berry made this reference. I went back to re-read it and saw that his "How to be a Poet" has a lot of advice for those of us who are trying to figure out "how to walk the Camino."

http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/poem/30299

And he appears to weigh in on the "should I unplug from technology?" debate as well, which I am not intending to provoke with this reference.

 

[amorfati1]

Hi SabineP

Of course, I will continue to write here after my Camino, why not?

Our opinions may not arrange, but we can discuss. Own judgment you/me do not have to change, but you/me can be upgrading.

Pilgrims have a history. They are described in novels, celebrated in poems. One dear to me (I'm 65):

When You Are Old
by William Butler Yeats

When you are old and grey and full of sleep,
And nodding by the fire, take down this book,
And slowly read, and dream of the soft look
Your eyes had once, and of their shadows deep;

How many loved your moments of glad grace,
And loved your beauty with love false or true,
But one man loved the pilgrim soul in you,
And loved the sorrows of your changing face;

And bending down beside the glowing bars,
Murmur, a little sadly, how Love fled
And paced upon the mountains overhead
And hid his face amid a crowd of stars.



Maybe I'm idealizing pilgrims, but I'll check this on May / June on Camino.

Bota

"...But one man loved the pilgrim soul in you,...'

whoa ... thanks mucho for sharing this poem -

 

[dougfitz]

The Spanish lady at the food truck gave me a free hot chocolate because she liked it so much...but my guess is that some local kid is wearing it now.

It's good to see that you think a young person might have been responsible for restoring the integrity of the artwork, especially when they are so often blamed for the damage done to public art.

 

[alipilgrim]

The Camino is a pilgrimage route open to walkers (bikers, riders) of all religions, faiths, persuasions, and spiritualities. Some people are happy to share their reasons why they walk, others don't, but all are welcome. Some people are very respectful, others may be less so, but few are intentionally so.

 

[lunna]

In a word: walker.

 

[LesBrass]

Hi everyone
where I see the difference between pilgrims and walkers.
The first in behavior. Pilgrim respects religious objects on Camino, walkers may not. Pilgrim made a prayed, walkers do not. Pilgrim going to Mass, walkers nope.
Also, pilgrim sleeps in albergues, walkers mostly in hostel or hotel. Pilgrim eat pilgrim menu, walkers go to a restaurant. Walker buy shell at the beginning, pilgrims on the end of Camino.
So, this is my look at that, probably not complete and different from some of you.

Bota

I met a man on my first Camino who said something along these lines over dinner... We weren't real pilgrims unless we ... Blah blah blah (substitute blah for rules)... He received short shrift from the other pilgrims, hikers and walkers around the table.

One very calm and quiet guy suggested that maybe the man had still not fully understood the purpose of his own Camino if he was still so eager to label everyone else... I liked this answer

 

[Kathor1]

This post made me prompted to ask, how do you feel, like pilgrim or like walker?

You put several parts in your post in bold: walkers, pilgrims, and non-Roman Catholic Christian. I can tell you what I'm definitely not. I am not a pilgrim in the medieval sense because I do not share their reasons for pilgrimage. They traveled to Santiago (or Rome or Canterbury or Cologne or Tours)

• because they had made a vow (if so and so happens, I promise to travel to Santiago)
• because they hoped for a miracle in the immediate presence of the relics of a saint (such as being cured of a disease)
  
• because of benefits for the afterlife that they could obtain at the destination
  
• because they walked as they had no other means of travel

Some of these reasons largely disappeared after the Reformation; nowadays, pilgrimage is an "ancient tradition in tune with today's needs". For example, knowing Luther's critical views about pilgrimage, I was initially surprised to learn that the Evangelical Lutheran churches in Germany have created pilgrim's ways in recent years. Modern pilgrimage of the kind you find on the Camino de Santiago is for people of all faiths and for the non-religious as well. As many will confirm, the focus has shifted from the destination to the journey itself.

As to walker vs pilgrim: I personally find that many of the experiences described are interchangeable, ie they are the same, whether it is a "Camino pilgrimage" or a long-distance walk in other parts of the world.

 

[rometimed]

Pilgrim... oft Walking

 

[Kurt5280]

Why would this be different to any other act that alters an art work?

You are completely right...placing a necklace on the dog at the Alto del Perdon is obviously sacrilege!!!

So please explain to me why this desecrates the Camino more than...leaving a rock at the Cruz de Ferro...placing a note at the Tomb of Saint James...burning personal items at Finisterre...or any other customs or traditions of the Camino?

Maybe you could explain to all of us how to properly respect the Camino?

 

[Anemone del Camino]

For example, knowing Luther's critical views about pilgrimage, I was initially surprised to learn that the Evangelical Lutheran churches in Germany have created pilgrim's ways in recent years.

@Kathar1na , can you explai why Luther was critical of pilgrimages?

I have started reading "Mille fois à Compostelle", a semi-academic work on the Camino to Santiago in the Middle Ages and I think it will turn out to be a fascinating read.

 

[Wokabaut_Meri]

I'm so glad that poetry has woven its way into this thread... it gives me an excuse to post this beautiful piece by @William Garza
Be Blessed Pilgrim on your Way

When time.
And distance cease to matter.

The crunch of gravel under your feet
The accompanying wind, whispers softly secret confidences in your ears

The wicked world falls away..dross,and optional to the day..more often and more each time, each day.

You find your wholeness
Your..
Ness..again
That essential wonderfull you, so far gone for far too long...
You are growing again, your "leaves"
Pages in your book of days.added
As the stain leaves your soul.

Time and distance
Spending the time, in your distance wisely.."spend" your time you have...
All roads lead somewhere
No road leads nowhere
If you found yourself on an unexpected turn
Go see what is around the bend

The road provides..did you sit..and take from that table?
Do you sit late in the deeps of nite
In the cups of lethe
And remember?
Do you, Pilgrim...?
Hear your steps out there on the road
Echoes of who you were
Who
You are?

Did you...Peregrino
Step from the path and into the river of stars?
Did you find yourself..of a sudden
Surrounded by all the others?

You recognize them
And you are recognized
A million smiles
All those gone before know you by your light
All those now, see your light..
Some
Will follow this light
To join the millenial march

One step
Another step..hola! Buen Camino!

Be Blessed Pilgrim on your way

 

[t2andreo]

Oh dear! I previous told a commenter by way of a private conversation that I would not weigh into this debate. However, looking at the photo (above) of the necklace on the metal dog, above, I decided I should chime in, in an attempt to clarify matters and defuse any rancor.

The "statues" in question are located at the top of Alto de Perdone, just outside Pamplona. They are most certainly NOT a religious or quasi religious site, or intended as such. I nearly lost my life there in 2013 having been forced off the path, and nearly off the vertical drop just before the summit, by two cyclists speeding down the path on a day-tripper lark. So, I am intimately familiar with those sculptures.

The metal sculptures are artistic pieces placed there by the local or regional / provincial junta (government). The specific work commemorates the place "where the wind meets the stars..." or some such poetic thing...

Those of you you viewed "THAT movie" also recognize the scene, on an overcast windy day (typical) where the merry band of film misfits are overtaken by cyclists, to some sardonic humor.

I will not weigh into the discussion of the necklace on the METAL SCULPTURE dog EXCEPT to note that, as the necklace does not appear to be a religious symbol or medallion, the intent and effect was not in the least sacrilegious. The end result was temporary appropriation of a durable art item, in a non-destructive manner, in a non-secure environment to take a photo. Simple. Tourists do it all the time, worldwide. It is no big deal as it leaves no lasting evidence, other than the photo.

This is not a big deal in my view and is FAR less onerous than graffiti, or "tagging" by felt tipped pen, as seen further down the Camino.

I hope this makes sense and stills the roiled waters on this tangental issue.

 

[Terje Lerstein]

Cant read all these comments. Left my stone brought from Norway in 2006. Still there I hope. Meant something to me. What others do or feel is their business.

 

[DLJ]

Like the question Pilgrim or Walker, we each have our own definition, and as the Forum shows the definitions don't necessarily agree. So, with religious practices, some are private, cloistered; some wear hair shirts and practice self-flaggellation; while others sing, shout and dance. Nobody can walk the Camino for us, but likewise we can't walk anybody else's Camino.
I left a stone at the Cruz Ferro, and had my own reasons and feelings; but as much for the accomplishment of just getting to this landmark as any religious belief.. I didn't leave a stone, but a greater moment for me was arriving at the Pilgrim statue (a man holding his hat and leaning into the wind) after climbing O'Cebreiro on a cold, windy rainy day.
I think one of the lessons is not to take ourselves too seriously or too self-importantly. Thinking of carrying a stone, brings to mind the words, "He who is without sin, cast the first stone."

 

[whariwharangi]

Maybe you could explain to all of us how to properly respect the Camino?

That's easy.

Leave it as you would like to find it.

That means take only photos. Leave only footprints. If you want to leave notes, leave them in large denominations, euros being preferred. And if you really want to earn unstated thank yous ... pick up after some other lout that has left garbage and leave it better than you found it.

 

[CaminoDebrita]

That's easy.

Leave it as you would like to find it.

That means take only photos. Leave only footprints. If you want to leave notes, leave them in large denominations, euros being preferred. And if you really want to earn unstated thank yous ... pick up after some other lout that has left garbage and leave it better than you found it.

Without adding to a conversation that has been at times interesting, at times intellectual (nice poetry), and could easily become rancorous, I have to say that I agree with this.

In fact, I picked up a lot of stuff on the CF. I felt that it was my duty to pick up stuff left behind by others, and that included t shirts, socks, trash, juice bottles, and water bottles. It was shocking.

Honestly, I think that some nice kid is probably wearing the necklace that was left behind. We don't need to worry about such a nice thing! Perhaps another pilgrim is wearing it.

Now that we are digressing...(royal we---not!), I purchased several nice pieces of jewelry and took it with me to Spain. I gave it--not to other pilgrims--but to hospitaleras. They were always delighted.

 

[Kanga]

There is nothing sacred about the cut-out pilgrim metal statutes on the Alto del Perdon. They were placed there in 1994 by the electricity company - as PR marketing when the line of gigantic windmills effectively destroyed the medieval landscape. The Cultural Handbook notes an Ermita de San Cristóbal and the Basílica de Nuestra Señora del Perdón in medieval times. The Basilica ran a pilgrim hospice, documented as functioning as late as 1816.

 

[MichaelSG]

There is nothing sacred about the cut-out pilgrim metal statutes on the Alto del Perdon.

To be fair, no one said they were sacred or religious. The person who said that they were NOT sacred was the person who was accused of "altering the artwork", I assume because it is easier to argue that the statues are not sacred rather than they are not altered artworks or that altering artwork is okay.

That said, we've already had this discussion on another thread about the same statues. Some people that it was okay to climb on them for photos and some thought it was wrong. After much arguing, no one's mind was changed about the interactiveness of art.

 

[Deacon Jason]

This has been an interesting thread to read through...very different ideas of what is pilgrimage and what is sacred.

For my part, I think we are all pilgrims both on and off the Camino--some are just more intentional about it than others (and even that varies day by day!). I count myself as an 'intentional pilgrim' at this point in my life...but that hasn't always been true. At many points I was more or less conscious of my personal journey--yet it continued regardless.

Apologies for an exceedingly long post, but I would like to leave here some wisdom from someone wiser than me...the following is one of my favorite stories from the Paradise of the Desert Fathers. Maybe it gives a different view of what is sacred and who is on a journey...I leave it here for your
consideration:

--------------

There was an old man living in the desert who served God for so many years and
he said, "Lord, let me know if I have pleased you." He saw an angel who said
to him, "You have not yet become like the gardener in such and such place."
The old man marvelled and said, "I will go off to the city to see both him and
what it is that he does that surpasses all my work and toil of all these
years."...

So he went to the city and asked the gardener about his way of life.... When
they were getting ready to eat in the evening, the old man heard people
singing in the streets, for the cell of the gardener was in a public
place. Therefore the old man said to him, "Brother, wanting as you do to live
according to God, how do you remain in this place and not be troubled when you
hear them singing these songs?"

The man said, "I tell you, abba, I have never been troubled or scandalized."
When he heard this the old man said, "What, then, do you think in your heart
when you hear these things?" And he replied, "That they are all going into the
Kingdom." When he heard this, the old man marvelled and said, "This is the
practice which surpasses my labour of all these years."

 

[dougfitz]

To be fair, no one said they were sacred or religious. The person who said that they were NOT sacred was the person who was accused of "altering the artwork", I assume because it is easier to argue that the statues are not sacred rather than they are not altered artworks or that altering artwork is okay.

Let me be clear that I think there are times where appropriating art has its merits. Even when it might appear crass and tasteless, it can represent legitimate and powerful commentary. I just don't think that appropriating an original work just because one is missing one's dog is one of those times.

I am also disturbed by the massive change in the symbolic content of the work, but that might best be another conversation.

Edited by Moderator.

 

[Kanga]

OK, this has gone too far. Now people are just attacking each other. I have edited some posts and I'm closing the thread.