Are you pilgrim or walker?

[Botaivica]

I was shocked to see several walkers (I will not call them pilgrims) deliberately mocking the Cruz de Ferro with consciously ridiculous poses, competing with one another to see who could have the most mocking photo taken. I stood on the opposite side of the Cruz de Ferro from them to leave my stones, tributes to a family who had lost their daughter to cancer and to my doctor, who supports a chronically sick sister in a country without public medicare. It rained. I cried, from shock and dismay. It was a very emotional moment.
I attended mass at Barbadelo, just out of Sarria, at the little 12th cent. church of Santiago. This was the only time on my camino when I received the sacrament; as a non-Roman Catholic Christian I was attempting to respect Catholic regulations. It was a very emotional experience in this wonderful church.

This post made me prompted to ask, how do you feel, like pilgrim or like walker?

 

[Bradypus]

Depends on my mood and events that day. More walker than pilgrim. I resent other people making the judgement though!

 

[waveprof]

I resent other people making the judgement though!

I tend to agree with this in a general way, but if I saw someone openly disrespecting something they knew to be important to other cultures/people on the Camino, I wouldn't feel so poorly about judging them. Not for not caring about the Cruz, but for not caring that someone else cared.

 

[Bradypus]

Sorry if my comment was ambiguous. Overt unthinking disrespect for religious traditions and values is inexcusable. I meant that I resent having another person decide that I am not worthy of the label "pilgrim" because I do not conform to their self-appointed criteria. An example close to my heart: some time ago a member of this forum received personal abuse because she chose to walk 30+km a day. Who knew that "real" pilgrims have a daily distance limit? I am a little anxious when legitimate personal opinion is confused with Holy Writ.

 

[Tincatinker]

This is a topic / question that has provoked both interesting discussion and unpleasant behaviour on previous occasions. Members are asked to exercise themselves with care. (moderated smiley)

Me? I'm either a walking pilgrim or a pilgrimaging walker. And if I encountered the described behaviour I would probably be in trouble. Some things still erupt the violent temper I have spent most of my adult life learning to manage.

 

[lessonslearnedabroad]

Pilgrim, definitely, though I am not Catholic. I found from SJPP to Sarria was much more pilgrim-leaning, and then from Sarria onward do you start to see less pilgrims and more walkers/tourigrinos. The entire mood of the walk changed, then, and unfortunately those last 100km to Santiago were my least favourite of the trip.

 

[Mark Lee]

Both. I'm a pilgrim that chooses to travel via my feet (not counting the flights to Europe and the trains and automobiles to get to SJPdP). I walk to my goal, that being the cathedral in Santiago. There are others who do the Haj to Mecca via airplanes and motor vehicles. I'm no less, nor more a pilgrim than they are because of our methods. I'm certainly not the textbook pilgrim. Sometimes drink too much and get opinionated at communal dinners (yikes!), and have been too hung-over the next morning to walk far, but overall well behaved and appreciative of my opportunity to walk a pilgrimage while there are so many out there who desire so much to walk their pilgrimages, but cannot.

 

[whariwharangi]

Cruz de Ferro is a pile of stones summited by an iron cross.

Its original purpose probably was as a cairn to mark the path and the highest point on the camino.

The behavior pointed out in the OP post suggests sacrilege as if the site were somehow sacred.

Perhaps someone could point to information that states its a sacred or even a religious site. As far as I am aware it is not.

People having fun whilst on the camino isn't against any edict that I am aware of.

I'd be in favour of having the site turned into a national monument complete with strict laws forbidding the leaving of any item including stones. Because that is behavior that I find offensive.

 

[Rob the Slob]

Etymologically closer to a pilgrim than a walker. Though now that I think about it, my desire to crosss half od Spain on foot, for little reason other than to do it, probably means I'm a pilgrim of walking.

(Does that make any sense, or only in my head?)

 

[Deleted member 43985]

A very good question and one I have wondered at. I wondered what the real definition of a Pilgrim was. When you look it up you find a variety of answers to that question:

• A religious devotee who journeys to a shrine or sacred place.
• A person who travels, especially to foreign lands or to a place of great personal importance.
• One of the English Separatists who founded the colony of Plymouth in New England in 1620.
• Its basic meaning was "traveler, homeless wanderer," from Latin peregrinum, "foreigner, stranger."

I guess I fall into some of these points so by definition I suppose I'm a Pilgrim who especially loves travelling to foreign lands and take long, wandering walks!

 

[Mark Lee]

Cruz de Ferro is a pile of stones summited by an iron cross.

Its original purpose probably was as a cairn to mark the path and the highest point on the camino.

The behavior pointed out in the OP post suggests sacrilege as if the site were somehow sacred.

Perhaps someone could point to information that states its a sacred or even a religious site. As far as I am aware it is not.

People having fun whilst on the camino isn't against any edict that I am aware of.

I'd be in favour of having the site turned into a national monument complete with strict laws forbidding the leaving of any item including stones. Because that is behavior that I find offensive.

There are different theories as to why the cross was erected there and when. Apparently it has enough religious significance to locals there that they built a chapel near it, and it is a "cross" which is a Christian religious symbol.
It doesn't really bother me to see people acting up around it. Don't really understand why one would, as there's all matters of locations on the CF where one can frolic and act up. Why there?
I guess I use my own personal travels and experiences as a gauge as to how to act around another religion's, another culture's religious symbols and structures. While living and working in Afghanistan and the Middle East, I had the opportunity to visit various mosques and prayer areas. While not a Muslim, no way would myself or any of my co-workers ever dreamed of doing anything even remotely disrespectful around these areas. It never crossed our minds. Could be a matter of maturity, or maybe a matter of just plain common sense and respect.
The same when I visited temples in Thailand and Cambodia. I'm not Buddhist, yet I treated their holy places with as much dignity and respect as I treat my own. At times I do feel awkward gawking into their world and I could see where there would be some resent at the foreigners treating their culture like visitors at a zoo looking at the exhibits.

 

[Waka]

Like some others I consider myself a pilgrim who walks, other people have their own definitions and I respect them.
As to the pilgrims/walkers at Cruz de Ferro I'm sure they were not deliberately being disrespectful. I guess it's possible that they didn't realise how offensive (rightly or wrongly) it was to other pilgrims.
I think if I'd been there and witnessed the episode, I'd have just continued on my way. Now had this happened in a church I know my reaction would be different.

 

[Deleted member 43985]

Cruz de Ferro is a pile of stones summited by an iron cross.

Its original purpose probably was as a cairn to mark the path and the highest point on the camino.

The behavior pointed out in the OP post suggests sacrilege as if the site were somehow sacred.

Perhaps someone could point to information that states its a sacred or even a religious site. As far as I am aware it is not.

People having fun whilst on the camino isn't against any edict that I am aware of.

I'd be in favour of having the site turned into a national monument complete with strict laws forbidding the leaving of any item including stones. Because that is behavior that I find offensive.

When I looked up the word sacred I found this:

Sacred means revered due to sanctity, is in general the state of being holy (perceived by religious individuals as associated with divinity) or sacred (considered worthy of spiritual respect or devotion; or inspiring awe or reverence among believers).

Wouldn't the history of people from around the world coming there to purposely leave a stone at the foot of the cross and say a prayer lend itself to identifying this place as sacred? I think you are right that the origins of Cruz de Ferro were likely a symbol of location or even a pagan relic but over time areas such as this have come to have great significance to hundreds of thousands of people. Even if a person doesn't believe, I sure like to think that they were still capable of showing just a little respect to those who do. Just my thoughts...

 

[Kathor1]

Cruz de Ferro is a pile of stones summited by an iron cross.
Its original purpose probably was as a cairn to mark the path and the highest point on the camino.
The behavior pointed out in the OP post suggests sacrilege as if the site were somehow sacred.
Perhaps someone could point to information that states its a sacred or even a religious site. As far as I am aware it is not.
People having fun whilst on the camino isn't against any edict that I am aware of.
I'd be in favour of having the site turned into a national monument complete with strict laws forbidding the leaving of any item including stones. Because that is behavior that I find offensive.

I totally agree. But people who have seen that movie and know nothing more than what they read in modern guidebooks and contemporary blogs will not be aware of the fact that the "history of people from around the world coming there to purposely leave a stone at the foot of the cross and say a prayer" is a very short history; it is a very modern custom and probably not more than a few decades old. I, too, wonder whether the behaviour described above was really a deliberate mocking or nothing more than customary celebrating after reaching the top of a mountain. In the Alps, most mountains have a cross at the top - I have never seen anyone bring a stone or say a prayer but quite a bit of frolicking after all the hard climbing. On a trail like the Camino Frances that is trodden by so many different cultures these days, a culture clash cannot be excluded.

 

[Deleted member 36903]

Cruz de Ferro is a pile of stones summited by an iron cross.

Its original purpose probably was as a cairn to mark the path and the highest point on the camino.

The behavior pointed out in the OP post suggests sacrilege as if the site were somehow sacred.

Perhaps someone could point to information that states its a sacred or even a religious site. As far as I am aware it is not.

People having fun whilst on the camino isn't against any edict that I am aware of.

I'd be in favour of having the site turned into a national monument complete with strict laws forbidding the leaving of any item including stones. Because that is behavior that I find offensive.

You make some interesting points whariwharangi.
People do have fun on the Camino thank goodness, and much wine is drunk in along the way - as it always has been. I think that the OP was concerned with a lack of respect for the feelings/beliefs of other whatever they might be. I will give an example of this. A friend walked the Camino last year, he is a Catholic, I am not, and walking along the Meseta he was praying the Rosary, coming up behind him was a young couple who were speaking to one another, but my friend said that as they drew near, one of them saw the Rosary and signalled to their companion to be silent, when they had gone some way past, they recommenced their animated discussion. They might have been walkers rather than pilgrims, but they respected the faith practices of the latter.
Regarding the Cruz de Ferro, you are correct that all that has been written about it on this forum would support the view that the site may not have any claim to being sacred, but those who leave stones and other items do so because for them it is a meaningful act, therefore for them it is sacred. People lay down - symbolically (not necessarily for religious reasons) emotional burdens, sadness, thanksgiving and memories at the site. That so many have done so, for me - I don't make rules for others - requires that I respect what they consider sacred. I would behave accordingly at a roadside shrine. These places matter to people. I know of two pilgrims who carried with them a single stone to be placed at the foot of the cross. Prior to their Camino, that stone had been laid on a table at the back of their church for several weeks with the invitation for any of the congregation to hold it for a moment and say a prayer; those prayers being carried in their hearts, if not literally, to the cairn.

When I arrived at the Cruz de Ferro, people who had stayed at several of the same albergues as myself in towns/villages earlier, used it as a fun photo opportunity. I assume that they were walkers not pilgrims, but I would never have asked that question of them, so I just waited until they had done taking photographs before placing my own stone on the pile.

People make pilgrimages to Graceland. It is not something I would do, I know that it has meaning for them and therefore respect their emotional attachment to the place. May mutual respect, fun and the flow of red wine long continue to be part of everyone's Camino

 

[amorfati1]

Depends on my mood and events that day. More walker than pilgrim. I resent other people making the judgement though!

Question: Why would it be a 'judgement'?
it's a simple distinction of intention. not a statement of value, no?
As in hot water and cold water. If i were to prefer cold water for a certain purpose/intention, have i been judgemental against hot water?

(disclosure: I make judgements all the time .... when i get up in the morning and view/feel the weather, i make a judgement on what would be the most suitable clothing for the task at hand (be it going to work in an office or a garden) etc etc .

My sense is that when people hear the word "judgement" they feel/hear: condemnation. Not the same thing.

Walker, Pilgrim, Hiker ... when one has the heart in the proper place and acts accordingly... what difference would it make?

 

[waveprof]

Cruz de Ferro is a pile of stones summited by an iron cross.

Its original purpose probably was as a cairn to mark the path and the highest point on the camino.

The behavior pointed out in the OP post suggests sacrilege as if the site were somehow sacred.

Perhaps someone could point to information that states its a sacred or even a religious site. As far as I am aware it is not.

People having fun whilst on the camino isn't against any edict that I am aware of.

I'd be in favour of having the site turned into a national monument complete with strict laws forbidding the leaving of any item including stones. Because that is behavior that I find offensive.

I don't think it really matters if it should or should not be seen as sacred, for religious reasons or otherwise. That's a different debate. What does matter is that it's clearly thought of (rightly or wrongly) as being among the MOST sacred and important spots for many peregrinos, and that should be more than enough reason for you to act respectful and with decorum at the site. If you think it shouldn't be thought of that way, discuss it with them that night at the allergue. If you think people shouldn't leave stones discuss that too (at an appropriate time and place) or else write a letter to the Spanish government. In the meantime be respectful to people who feel they are having an important moment. Don't make their moment about you--or your opinions (be they cultural or religious). Would you want someone choosing the moment you arrive at your most important location to be the moment that they disrespected your view of that location?

 

[Michael Caleigh]

I avoid things that might upset other cultures and belief systems as I don´t want anyone doing this to myself

 

[Sue M]

I am a walking pilgrim.

 

[waveprof]

I am a walking pilgrim.

We pilgrim walkers judge you

 

[James R B]

I have not yet walked the Camino but when it comes the time to ask if I'm a Pilgrim or a Walker I'll probably reply I'm a Thinker.When it's dinner time I'm a Sprinter!

 

[Bradypus]

Question: Why would it be a 'judgement'?
it's a simple distinction of intention. not a statement of value, no?
As in hot water and cold water. If i were to prefer cold water for a certain purpose/intention, have i been judgemental against hot water?

The meaning varies with context in English. I intended to convey an assessment of relative moral/religious/spiritual worth. How does one know another person's intention without asking them? Can they express it in language and concepts which you both share? Even if you use the same words do you know that they have the same meaning for you both? I have often visited holy places of other faiths. Despite a fairly thorough education in comparative religion I have sometimes accidentally acted in ways which might cause offence. Fortunately my hosts have always had the generosity of spirit to recognise my mistakes were due to ignorance and not deliberate intent.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

This is a topic / question that has provoked both interesting discussion and unpleasant behaviour on previous occasions. Members are asked to exercise themselves with care. (moderated smiley)

Me? I'm either a walking pilgrim or a pilgrimaging walker. And if I encountered the described behaviour I would probably be in trouble. Some things still erupt the violent temper I have spent most of my adult life learning to manage.

There was a very long thread in December and January of 2014-2015 on this very topic. You might enjoy reading it.

 

[domigee]

Pilgrim!

 

[waveprof]

Pilgrim (You Can't Go Home)

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Cruz de Ferro is a pile of stones summited by an iron cross.

Its original purpose probably was as a cairn to mark the path and the highest point on the camino.

The behavior pointed out in the OP post suggests sacrilege as if the site were somehow sacred.

I'd be in favour of having the site turned into a national monument complete with strict laws forbidding the leaving of any item including stones. Because that is behavior that I find offensive.

Ah, and this is why doing one's homework before heading out is important, or one is likely to get panties ina knot over mistaken information.

Just imagine the uproar when said upset walker realises all the stuff left at the foot of the monument is buldozed away periodically. (I get upset by the cost the community has to encurr to remove this stiff).

Recently read something from a person who was horrified that people walked on the rubble, until she did and discovered the items people left along with the rocks/stones: meaasags, teddy bears, what have yous. Yes, all these items that rot there, or fly away into the community as trash. Do we really need to drop off objects, things, to evoke a feeling, especially is someone elsés backyard?

Just remember, it has been sais that the size of the stone/rock you put at the base of the monument is supposed to be proportional to your sins. Still want to drop something off at the foot of this most likely peagan monument?

 

[amorfati1]

Ah, and this is why doing one's homework before heading out is important, or one is likely to get panties ina knot over mistaken information.

Just imagine the uproar when said upset walker realises all the stuff left at the foot of the monument is buldozed away periodically. (I get upset by the cost the community has to encurr to remove this stiff).

Recently read something from a person who was horrified that people walked on the rubble, until she did and discovered the items people left along with the rocks/stones: meaasags, teddy bears, what have yous. Yes, all these items that rot there, or fly away into the community as trash. Do we really need to drop off objects, things, to evoke a feeling, especially is someone elsés backyard?

Just remember, it has been sais that the size of the stone/rock you put at the base of the monument is supposed to be proportional to your sins. Still want to drop something off at the foot of this most likely peagan monument?

Hm ... what would be objectionable to 'pagan' ? would this momument any less sacred/important if it were deemed pagan? most christian holidays have pagan roots. people were pilgrims before there was christanity ...
I am sure I don't quite understand your last sentence ... nor the intention behind it, to be sure ...

 

[amorfati1]

Both. I'm a pilgrim that chooses to travel via my feet (not counting the flights to Europe and the trains and automobiles to get to SJPdP). I walk to my goal, that being the cathedral in Santiago. There are others who do the Haj to Mecca via airplanes and motor vehicles. I'm no less, nor more a pilgrim than they are because of our methods. I'm certainly not the textbook pilgrim. Sometimes drink too much and get opinionated at communal dinners (yikes!), and have been too hung-over the next morning to walk far, but overall well behaved and appreciative of my opportunity to walk a pilgrimage while there are so many out there who desire so much to walk their pilgrimages, but cannot.

 

[Deleted member 36903]

Ah, and this is why doing one's homework before heading out is important, or one is likely to get panties ina knot over mistaken information.

Just imagine the uproar when said upset walker realises all the stuff left at the foot of the monument is buldozed away periodically. (I get upset by the cost the community has to encurr to remove this stiff).

Recently read something from a person who was horrified that people walked on the rubble, until she did and discovered the items people left along with the rocks/stones: meaasags, teddy bears, what have yous. Yes, all these items that rot there, or fly away into the community as trash. Do we really need to drop off objects, things, to evoke a feeling, especially is someone elsés backyard?

Just remember, it has been sais that the size of the stone/rock you put at the base of the monument is supposed to be proportional to your sins. Still want to drop something off at the foot of this most likely peagan monument?

 

[Albertagirl]

I should like to clarify that I was not the original poster in this thread, although someone lifted my post about my most emotional moment on the camino and used it to start this thread. As something profound and personal about my pilgrimage which I had brought myself to share, I did not expect it to be quoted in another context and taken apart in detail. I cannot find any way to withdraw from this forum but I request that a Moderator remove me from the forum for the sin of thinking in Christian and religious terms about my pilgrimage. I will even give that sin a voice by saying, "God bless all of you,"

 

[Deleted member 36903]

Anemone I know that on an earlier post you have raised the cost to the local community of clearing away the stones and other items left at the Cruz de Ferro but I think that that cost is borne with good grace because the site is not only a draw for pilgrims and walkers of the Camino who spend their money in local communities - in very real terms in the case of the preceding village, Foncebadon which has been brought back to life by travellers on the Way, it also attracts tourist onto roads that would not be travelled otherwise. Think of how Acebo is thriving now. No doubt the iron cross is a marker for tourists who arrive by road - as opposed to foot - but I have no doubt that it is because of how pilgrims/walkers feel about the place and what they leave behind that makes it special and worth the trip there. As for pagan origins, well I can live with that as Christians have done for millenia. And do I still want to leave a stone there when I next walk the Frances? You bet I do.

Albertagirl, I just saw you post and sympathise with what you say. Please stay. Your original contribution was heartfelt and sincere, and if we can't respect faith - in whatever shape it is found - on this forum, where can we?

 

[Robo]

Definitely a Pilgrim. Perhaps that puts me in the minority.........

If I was just a walker, I could do that anywhere......

As others have said, there are plenty of posts about this. And it can end in some vigorous debate

I found the last 100 kms quite difficult in this regard. (In the context of this being an ancient pilgrimage route, that is still walked by many as a Pilgrimage) The yelling / whooping 'peletons' of cyclists were a challenge That I managed to overcome

The behaviour of some walkers/tourists in places of worship etc was disappointing too. But hey, you get that in Sydney too

Whatever the Camino was and now is......just is. We make of it what we want.

 

[KinkyOne]

You make some interesting points whariwharangi.
People do have fun on the Camino thank goodness, and much wine is drunk in along the way - as it always has been. I think that the OP was concerned with a lack of respect for the feelings/beliefs of other whatever they might be. I will give an example of this. A friend walked the Camino last year, he is a Catholic, I am not, and walking along the Meseta he was praying the Rosary, coming up behind him was a young couple who were speaking to one another, but my friend said that as they drew near, one of them saw the Rosary and signalled to their companion to be silent, when they had gone some way past, they recommenced their animated discussion. They might have been walkers rather than pilgrims, but they respected the faith practices of the latter.
Regarding the Cruz de Ferro, you are correct that all that has been written about it on this forum would support the view that the site may not have any claim to being sacred, but those who leave stones and other items do so because for them it is a meaningful act, therefore for them it is sacred. People lay down - symbolically (not necessarily for religious reasons) emotional burdens, sadness, thanksgiving and memories at the site. That so many have done so, for me - I don't make rules for others - requires that I respect what they consider sacred. I would behave accordingly at a roadside shrine. These places matter to people. I know of two pilgrims who carried with them a single stone to be placed at the foot of the cross. Prior to their Camino, that stone had been laid on a table at the back of their church for several weeks with the invitation for any of the congregation to hold it for a moment and say a prayer; those prayers being carried in their hearts, if not literally, to the cairn.

When I arrived at the Cruz de Ferro, people who had stayed at several of the same albergues as myself in towns/villages earlier, used it as a fun photo opportunity. I assume that they were walkers not pilgrims, but I would never have asked that question of them, so I just waited until they had done taking photographs before placing my own stone on the pile.

People make pilgrimages to Graceland. It is not something I would do, I know that it has meaning for them and therefore respect their emotional attachment to the place. May mutual respect, fun and the flow of red wine long continue to be part of everyone's Camino

Beautifully explained. I wish I could say that myself!!!

Ultreia to you!

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Anemone I know that on an earlier post you have raised the cost to the local community of clearing away the stones and other items left at the Cruz de Ferro but I think that that cost is borne with good grace because the site is not only a draw for pilgrims and walkers of the Camino who spend their money in local communities - in very real terms in the case of the preceding village, Foncebadon which has been brought back to life by travellers on the Way, it also attracts tourist onto roads that would not be travelled otherwise. Think of how Acebo is thriving now. No doubt the iron cross is a marker for tourists who arrive by road - as opposed to foot - but I have no doubt that it is because of how pilgrims/walkers feel about the place and what they leave behind that makes it special and worth the trip there. As for pagan origins, well I can live with that as Christians have done for millenia.

All I was trying to express is that this stop along the Camino is not a religious one persay, and that people should not get upset when it is not respected as a church would be. It has become a Camino landmark, whose mess may pay for itself or not, but in order for one not be be upset by how it is treated perhaps seeing it as that will be helpful. The fact that the stuff left at its foot gets buldozed should be telling of its status, simply that of a non sacred Camino landmark.

As for Foncebadon benefitting from bus tourism, perhaps Coelho is the true maker of that. As for el Acebo, it has always been a well to do little community. A look at the quality of its buildings is quite telling.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Hm ... what would be objectionable to 'pagan' ? would this momument any less sacred/important if it were deemed pagan? most christian holidays have pagan roots. people were pilgrims before there was christanity ...
I am sure I don't quite understand your last sentence ... nor the intention behind it, to be sure ...

Considering this site is does not have any particular religious status, one could bring their stone/rock and drop it off anywhere else on the Camino: a place with a beautiful view, at the top of xyz, etc. Dropping it of at the Cruz de Ferro doesn't add, bring, any additional meaning. For example, there are people in my life named Santiago and Domingo: much more meaningful for me to pray in a church or village named either Saint, or better yet the bith place of Santo Domingo. A roadside marker? Why not, as long as you won't be disappointed when you learn of its place in history and the fact that ot is not a religious landmark.

 

[Ahhhs]

I prefer not to be labeled at all.

Certainly everyone, including those who are very religious, must realize that beliefs are a very personal thing and not everyone feels the same as they do. Not better or worse, just different.

 

[Urban Trekker]

This is a topic / question that has provoked both interesting discussion and unpleasant behaviour on previous occasions. Members are asked to exercise themselves with care. (moderated smiley)

Me? I'm either a walking pilgrim or a pilgrimaging walker. And if I encountered the described behaviour I would probably be in trouble. Some things still erupt the violent temper I have spent most of my adult life learning to manage.

I like Tincatinkers responce. I'm an both a walking pilgrim and a pilgrimaging walker. With few exceptions we are all guests in Spain and should act accordingly at all times. Some people are disrespectful not realizing they're being disrespectful. The popular forum stop sign photo, Don't Stop Walking, is a good example, to me is graffiti and very disrespectful . Buen Camino

 

[karenfromcali]

All I was trying to express is that this stop along the Camino is not a religious one persay, and that people should not get upset when it is not respected as a church would be. It has become a Camino landmark, whose mess may pay for itself or not, but in order for one not be be upset by how it is treated perhaps seeing it as that will be helpful. The fact that the stuff left at its foot gets buldozed should be telling of its status, simply that of a non sacred Camino landmark.

As for Foncebadon benefitting from bus tourism, perhaps Coelho is the true maker of that. As for el Acebo, it has always been a well to do little community. A look at the quality of its buildings is quite telling.

The rocks get bulldozed? I had no idea. There are so many stories wrapped up in each stone. It is really troubling to my heart that so many peoples thoughts, prayers, remembrances and tears, that are wrapped up in a simple stone, are bulldozed away. Officially sacred or not, I know it will always be sacred to me, if not for the cross itself (which is already sacred to many, myself included), then for the heartfelt moments of each pilgrim or walker who has stopped there to leave a stone before me.

 

[Mark Lee]

The rocks get bulldozed? I had no idea. There are so many stories wrapped up in each stone. It is really troubling to my heart that so many peoples thoughts, prayers, remembrances and tears, that are wrapped up in a simple stone, are bulldozed away. Officially sacred or not, I know it will always be sacred to me, if not for the cross itself (which is already sacred to many, myself included), then for the heartfelt moments of each pilgrim or walker who has stopped there to leave a stone before me.

I don't know. I gotta doubt that any of the rocks have ever been bulldozed away. I'd have to see some proof of that. It's a pretty fair sized mound. My guess is that at the most maybe they have used heavy equipment to pile it up and keep it from spilling on to the roadway.
I'd like to see some photographic evidence. Never been one to believe hearsay.

 

[karenfromcali]

I don't know. I gotta doubt that any of the rocks have ever been bulldozed away. I'd have to see some proof of that. It's a pretty fair sized mound. My guess is that at the most maybe they have used heavy equipment to pile it up and keep it from spilling on to the roadway.
I'd like to see some photographic evidence. Never been one to believe hearsay.

Ok. Then my misunderstanding. I thought I had read they were bulldozed away. Very relieved to hear that it is unlikely.

 

[Mark Lee]

I like Tincatinkers responce. I'm an both a walking pilgrim and a pilgrimaging walker. With few exceptions we are all guests in Spain and should act accordingly at all times. Some people are disrespectful not realizing they're being disrespectful. The popular forum stop sign photo, Don't Stop Walking, is a good example, to me is graffiti and very disrespectful . Buen Camino

One of my pet peeves on the Camino, or anywhere. The notion that some idiot with a can of spray paint is an artist or philosopher is absurd.
Reference attached photo. That's what greeted me on my first Camino upon reaching the top of Alto del Perdon. Some two legged turd had defaced the pilgrim's monument there.

 

[Robo]

You make some interesting points whariwharangi.
People do have fun on the Camino thank goodness, and much wine is drunk in along the way - as it always has been. I think that the OP was concerned with a lack of respect for the feelings/beliefs of other whatever they might be. I will give an example of this. A friend walked the Camino last year, he is a Catholic, I am not, and walking along the Meseta he was praying the Rosary, coming up behind him was a young couple who were speaking to one another, but my friend said that as they drew near, one of them saw the Rosary and signalled to their companion to be silent, when they had gone some way past, they recommenced their animated discussion. They might have been walkers rather than pilgrims, but they respected the faith practices of the latter.
Regarding the Cruz de Ferro, you are correct that all that has been written about it on this forum would support the view that the site may not have any claim to being sacred, but those who leave stones and other items do so because for them it is a meaningful act, therefore for them it is sacred. People lay down - symbolically (not necessarily for religious reasons) emotional burdens, sadness, thanksgiving and memories at the site. That so many have done so, for me - I don't make rules for others - requires that I respect what they consider sacred. I would behave accordingly at a roadside shrine. These places matter to people. I know of two pilgrims who carried with them a single stone to be placed at the foot of the cross. Prior to their Camino, that stone had been laid on a table at the back of their church for several weeks with the invitation for any of the congregation to hold it for a moment and say a prayer; those prayers being carried in their hearts, if not literally, to the cairn.

When I arrived at the Cruz de Ferro, people who had stayed at several of the same albergues as myself in towns/villages earlier, used it as a fun photo opportunity. I assume that they were walkers not pilgrims, but I would never have asked that question of them, so I just waited until they had done taking photographs before placing my own stone on the pile.

People make pilgrimages to Graceland. It is not something I would do, I know that it has meaning for them and therefore respect their emotional attachment to the place. May mutual respect, fun and the flow of red wine long continue to be part of everyone's Camino

A great perspective. Very well put.

 

[Kathor1]

There are different theories as to why the cross was erected there and when. Apparently it has enough religious significance to locals there that they built a chapel near it, and it is a "cross" which is a Christian religious symbol.

The chapel was built only in 1982 by the Centro Galicia in Ponferrada. There were no religious buildings there before.

I just looked into my Complete Cultural Handbook which was written before 2000. They say that the place is a photo-op and advise to be sure to climb to the top of the rock pile to get a first glimpse of the mountains of Galicia to the west. Not much sacredness there yet. They mention that modern pilgrims pick up a stone earlier in their journey as a symbol of their sins and deposit it as an act of contrition. No talk yet of bringing a stone from home or leaving mementos of various kinds, also mementos from and for others, so that must be an even younger tradition - and possibly one that has been imported into Spain.

Nancy Frey writes that the Cruz became an informal shrine in the mid-1990s.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Ok. Then my misunderstanding. I thought I had read they were bulldozed away. Very relieved to hear that it is unlikely.

Oh no, they are bulldozed away. Do you not find it strange that despite 250k people a year walking the Camino the pile never ends up on the road or higher up than you see in pictures? I will try to find the link to a pictur of the buldozing in a Spanish article mentioning what a burden this practice is to the community. I know I once posted it before.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

So, googling a bit, there is this poor volunteer from a Camino association who goes to the Cruz de Ferro on a regular basis with garbage bags. He refers to the stuff left there as "moralla" or, in English, useless or wothless items. He says he fills up 4 or 5 garbage bags when ever he goes up there. He mentions how people actually put in nails or screws to hang their items on the post. He mentions a 3kg stone attached to a sisal rope to the post, a rope that would quickly break apart, letting this rock lose, ready to injur an unsuspectimg passer by. And apparently people and thei beautiful intentions have damafed the original post so much that it is now made up of metal, covered with a veneer of wood to imitate the orginal look. The wind has been known to take these items as far back to Foncebadon.

Oh, and the Official Cruz cleaning day is September 15 th. The pilgrimassociations of the Bierzo, Astorga, Leon and Galicia join in, with the local government participating by provinding skips and buldozers.

 

[GettingThere]

I should like to clarify that I was not the original poster in this thread, although someone lifted my post about my most emotional moment on the camino and used it to start this thread. As something profound and personal about my pilgrimage which I had brought myself to share, I did not expect it to be quoted in another context and taken apart in detail. I cannot find any way to withdraw from this forum but I request that a Moderator remove me from the forum for the sin of thinking in Christian and religious terms about my pilgrimage. I will even give that sin a voice by saying, "God bless all of you,"

@Albertagirl please don't leave the forum. I was surprised to see your heartfelt post used (out of context and incompletely) at the top of this thread, having read it on the other thread, and had hoped the OP had seen fit to ask you whether you would mind it being used here. Used, in fact, to ask a rather different question which seems unrelated to your post or the reason you posted it, and which could have been asked without quoting you (or if necessary just by saying "a post on another thread got me thinking...." without including your words). I know anyone can reply or quote a post, but usually that is within the original thread and in the context of a single discussion. Given that your post was made in a discussion of emotional moments, it would have been courteous and sensitive to ask before placing it in a different topic discussion. I have enjoyed your thoughtful and thought-provoking posts, and would hate to see you leave due to a (perhaps unintentionally) thoughtless action by another member. I hope you will consider staying, and continuing to share your thoughts and experiences here.

 

[Albertagirl]

@Albertagirl please don't leave the forum. I was surprised to see your heartfelt post used (out of context and incompletely) at the top of this thread, having read it on the other thread, and had hoped the OP had seen fit to ask you whether you would mind it being used here. Used, in fact, to ask a rather different question which seems unrelated to your post or the reason you posted it, and which could have been asked without quoting you (or if necessary just by saying "a post on another thread got me thinking...." without including your words). I know anyone can reply or quote a post, but usually that is within the original thread and in the context of a single discussion. Given that your post was made in a discussion of emotional moments, it would have been courteous and sensitive to ask before placing it in a different topic discussion. I have enjoyed your thoughtful and thought-provoking posts, and would hate to see you leave due to a (perhaps unintentionally) thoughtless action by another member. I hope you will consider staying, and continuing to share your thoughts and experiences here.

Thank you

 

[Robo]

I should like to clarify that I was not the original poster in this thread, although someone lifted my post about my most emotional moment on the camino and used it to start this thread. As something profound and personal about my pilgrimage which I had brought myself to share, I did not expect it to be quoted in another context and taken apart in detail. I cannot find any way to withdraw from this forum but I request that a Moderator remove me from the forum for the sin of thinking in Christian and religious terms about my pilgrimage. I will even give that sin a voice by saying, "God bless all of you,"

Hi Albertagirl,

Your original post used above, was heartfelt, honest and what many Pilgrims no doubt experience at some stage.

Mine was trying to block out a babbling gaggle of Spanish 'tourists' whilst kneeling in prayer in the Church in Lavacolla. And few other places

I'm sure the person who used your post to raise a question, did not mean any harm. They probably picked it because it was expressed so well. Hopefully we are all amongst friends here. And Yes, occasionally friends 'tick us off' at times

Please don't leave the Forum. You are an important part of an amazing online community here, that will be the worse for your departure.....

Maybe we all need to be careful about 'quoting' other members, other than within the thread where the post was made?

 

[Deleted member 43985]

The chapel was built only in 1982 by the Centro Galicia in Ponferrada. There were no religious buildings there before.

I just looked into my Complete Cultural Handbook which was written before 2000. They say that the place is a photo-op and advise to be sure to climb to the top of the rock pile to get a first glimpse of the mountains of Galicia to the west. Not much sacredness there yet. They mention that modern pilgrims pick up a stone earlier in their journey as a symbol of their sins and deposit it as an act of contrition. No talk yet of bringing a stone from home or leaving mementos of various kinds, also mementos from and for others, so that must be an even younger tradition - and possibly one that has been imported into Spain.

Nancy Frey writes that the Cruz became an informal shrine in the mid-1990s.

By definition aren't we modern pilgrims? And if, as Nancy Frey writes, it is a informal shrine since the mid-1990's then why is it so bad to respect it as such? Every meaningful tradition or act was new at some point and to see and read what meaning it gives to people makes it sacred in my view.

Regarding photo ops, I have read articles that advise people where to stand in the Cathedral in SDC to get the best photos during the Pilgrim's Mass, a place of great significance and sacredness and for which I've not yet read anyone disparaging those taking photos/videos during a religious ceremony.

 

[Albertagirl]

Hi Albertagirl,

Your original post used above, was heartfelt, honest and what many Pilgrims no doubt experience at some stage.

Mine was trying to block out a babbling gaggle of Spanish 'tourists' whilst kneeling in prayer in the Church in Lavacolla. And few other places

I'm sure the person who used your post to raise a question, did not mean any harm. They probably picked it because it was expressed so well. Hopefully we are all amongst friends here. And Yes, occasionally friends 'tick us off' at times

Please don't leave the Forum. You are an important part of an amazing online community here, that will be the worse for your departure.....

Maybe we all need to be careful about 'quoting' other members, other than within the thread where the post was made?

Robo,
This experience has shown me something that I should have considered more carefully: the personal risks to being on an online forum. I find it very hard to communicate with other people who have walked a pilgrimage route that has been profoundly meaningful to me and to confine my comments to what kind of clothes to wear. I really don't care. I would walk the pilgrimage route naked if it were the only way I could do it. But I should know better than to let myself be emotionally or spiritually naked. I have been on this forum for a year and have only just realized my monumental stupidity in revealing too much of myself. This makes me want to hide in a hole, where I can be safe (there, I've done it again, I really am too stupid to be on a social forum).

 

[Robo]

Robo,
This experience has shown me something that I should have considered more carefully: the personal risks to being on an online forum. I find it very hard to communicate with other people who have walked a pilgrimage route that has been profoundly meaningful to me and to confine my comments to what kind of clothes to wear. I really don't care. I would walk the pilgrimage route naked if it were the only way I could do it. But I should know better than to let myself be emotionally or spiritually naked. I have been on this forum for a year and have only just realized my monumental stupidity in revealing too much of myself. This makes me want to hide in a hole, where I can be safe (there, I've done it again, I really am too stupid to be on a social forum).

We're all human, and vulnerable and sometimes share too much Others don't. Perhaps they want to, but don't have your courage?

Of course the really cool thing about an online community like this.........is that no one actually knows who you are !

What ever you decide..........it's been great to have your company Hopefully for a bit longer

 

[Ahhhs]

Anything you post on a public forum is just that: public.
Hundreds if not thousands of people will read it and there will be comments. Some you may like, enjoy, or agree with. Others you won't. It is what it is. Everyone has their own opinion and their right to it. Try not to take anything too personally.

 

[Lachance]

Anything you post on a public forum is just that: public.
Hundreds if not thousands of people will read it and there will be comments. Some you may like, enjoy, or agree with. Others you won't. It is what it is. Everyone has their own opinion and their right to it. Try not to take anything too personally.

Sadly this is true and it IS public exposure, i.e. not limited to members of the forum or lurkers. We all create permanent records when we make online comments anywhere. I have great sympathy with Albertagirl's feelings. But in all honesty, it would not have struck me as a no-no to quote a post from a different thread as the OP did with no intention of misrepresenting by lack of context. I have seen bans on 'cross posting' on some forums.

 

[MichaelSG]

Oh no, they are bulldozed away. Do you not find it strange that despite 250k people a year walking the Camino the pile never ends up on the road or higher up than you see in pictures?

Are you sure of your statistics? 250k walking past the Cruz de Ferro? That's another reason I questioned the "enormous costs" of cleaning up the stones that you talk about.

As to some other people's comments, the fact that many people consider a place sacred may not make you believe it is, but you still should be respecting the fact that other people believe it's sacred. I don't pee on the walls of mosques or chop down Buddhist shrine trees because it would be wrong and offensive to those believe those to be sacred.

 

[marbuck]

It's not just the stones that are left there, it includes a lot of what I would call rubbish. I was very disappointed when we arrived. God does not require you to leave notes to him.

 

[Kurt5280]

I request that a Moderator remove me from the forum for the sin of thinking in Christian and religious terms about my pilgrimage. I will even give that sin a voice by saying, "God bless all of you,"

Before I started the Camino Frances I was told you had to start in SJPDP at the Pilgrim Office...you should attempt the Camino as a Spiritual experience...you need to stay in Albergues every night for community with other Pilgrims...make sure you hike the Route of Napoleon over the Pyrenees Mountains...also hike through the Meseta for the Spiritual experience...you need to bring a rock to the Cruz de Ferro...and then finish in Santiago at the daily Pilgrim Mass!!!

From my experience...I will never cross the Pyrenees Mountains again...I wish I had started in Roncevaux at the Pilgrim Mass...I will only cross the Meseta once in my lifetime...I will never stay in an Albergue again because I like a long shower and uninterrupted sleep...I passed through Santiago heading to Finisterre and then finished in Muxia at the cathedral at the water...what I threw in the ocean at Muxia meant more to me than the rock I left at the Cruz de Ferro...I am glad I rode my mountain bike...why would I not do the Camino for anything other than religious reasons...I believe Pilgrims need to stop stating their "personal opinions" to other Pilgrims on how to properly enjoy their Camino experience...and I am still a Camino Pilgrim!!!

The Camino is a personal experience...there are no rules that make it a better experience...also my personal experience was more than the sum of the places I saw...and the purpose of my Camino was to find an answer to a question inside myself!

 

[Dutch]

I prefer not to be labeled at all.

Certainly everyone, including those who are very religious, must realize that beliefs are a very personal thing and not everyone feels the same as they do. Not better or worse, just different.

I agree, religion is very personal, but Aiaiai, is 't that a big problem? The way i often see it happening, the very very religious feel that everyone SHOULD feel the same way as they do. And because not everyone does, isn't that why we have all these wars going on right now and in our whole human history?

I am a pilgrim and therefor i walk or i walk and thus i am a pilgrim. Does it really matter???

 

[wayfarer]

I should like to clarify that I was not the original poster in this thread, although someone lifted my post about my most emotional moment on the camino and used it to start this thread. As something profound and personal about my pilgrimage which I had brought myself to share, I did not expect it to be quoted in another context and taken apart in detail. I cannot find any way to withdraw from this forum but I request that a Moderator remove me from the forum for the sin of thinking in Christian and religious terms about my pilgrimage. I will even give that sin a voice by saying, "God bless all of you,"

I would also like to add my voice to those who say "please don't leave the forum". Many threads here have been started on foot of a post in another thread, although why yours was used puzzles me. The question just could have been asked "are you a pilgrim or a walker" without reference to your post. If you wish it can be edited.

 

[AlanB]

Can we be neither? Agree about the labels. Very tedious. There are more than enough prejudices in the world.

 

[Fletchonides]

I am definitely a pilgrim, but still trying to define what that actually means for me. I am a committed Christian who is Roman Catholic, and wouldn't be doing the Camino if it were not a pilgrim route, but what does it mean?
I want it to be a time where I see God accompanying me on the road, and drawing closer to him, to have more spiritual encounters and conversations with people that I do in my 'normal' life; to be able to pray more; to strip away the complicated stuff that has accumulated in my life; to be a channel of Gods grace to those around me. I expect to not just achieve a goal of reaching Santiago, but to be a changed person, and to have been instrumental in impacting others lives as well. I hope to be able to answer the question more at the end than at the start of my journey.

Reading that last paragraph, if you strip it of the 'religious' language, would possibly be close to what some other non-religious pilgrims might express as well, in terms of being a changed person, impacting and being impacted by others, having a simpler time to de-clutter my life; etc. and that's ok. This is part of who I am, and out of that comes why I walk. You are different, but reasons for walking come out of who you are, or even who you want to be.

 

[Mike Trebert]

Oh no, they are bulldozed away. Do you not find it strange that despite 250k people a year walking the Camino the pile never ends up on the road or higher up than you see in pictures? I will try to find the link to a pictur of the buldozing in a Spanish article mentioning what a burden this practice is to the community. I know I once posted it before.

Let's safely say 150k people a year pass by, let's conservatively say 1 million stones and many offerings every 10 years. That's a LOT of stones, etc. Stands to reason they have to trim it back fairly often. I haven't been yet but I understand The Cruz De Ferro is close to the road.

What's the difference anyway? It's leaving the stone that matters isn't it? After that moment pride might start working it's magic. I'd throw a stone into the sky. Like the kid with the starfish.

 

[MTtoCamino]

I am blessed to say it was a pilgrimage, so yes I continue to be a pilgrim.

Albertagirl is an honest person with a very good heart. We are lucky to have her on this forum.
Keith

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Are you sure of your statistics? 250k walking past the Cruz de Ferro? That's another reason I questioned the "enormous costs" of cleaning up the stones that you talk about.

As to some other people's comments, the fact that many people consider a place sacred may not make you believe it is, but you still should be respecting the fact that other people believe it's sacred. I don't pee on the walls of mosques or chop down Buddhist shrine trees because it would be wrong and offensive to those believe those to be sacred.

As my last comment on the topic:mif peeing on the walls of mosques and chopping down shrine trees (and notice I never said the onlything that matter are Catholic monuments) then why polute the Spanish countryside and expect the locals to clean up our mess? What is it through hikers say about leaving no trace?

 

[MiraN]

I'm a Walker. I like to walk and see many people from different countries.
When i start in the morning and pack my backpack i feel wonderfull.

 

[dollytz]

I'm just Dolly, no religious leanings just treat others as you would be treated. I will be making my journey in September, hopefully having great conversations on the way both deep and meaningful and also a bit of fun whilst showing respect for those who want quiet time. Respect to Albertagirl

 

[Albertagirl]

I would also like to add my voice to those who say "please don't leave the forum". Many threads here have been started on foot of a post in another thread, although why yours was used puzzles me. The question just could have been asked "are you a pilgrim or a walker" without reference to your post. If you wish it can be edited.

Wayfarer,
Since my leaving stones at the cruz de ferro seems to be a focus of many of the critical comments on this thread, it really would not make much sense to remove my post. I am simply learning how social forums can go, when people use someone else's comments on something else as a focus for their own negative thoughts and feelings, knowing that the nature of such a forum makes this acceptable. I am finding it very difficult to be a focus, if not the direct target, of such negative thoughts. However, I am always free to simply not return to the forum.

 

[MichaelB10398]

I should like to clarify that I was not the original poster in this thread, although someone lifted my post about my most emotional moment on the camino and used it to start this thread. As something profound and personal about my pilgrimage which I had brought myself to share, I did not expect it to be quoted in another context and taken apart in detail. I cannot find any way to withdraw from this forum but I request that a Moderator remove me from the forum for the sin of thinking in Christian and religious terms about my pilgrimage. I will even give that sin a voice by saying, "God bless all of you,"

Hello Alberta Girl, really enjoy your name on the Forum!

I can understand how you might be offended that your post was used and then dissected on this specific thread. I am sorry about that and hope that you can forgive and still remain active on the site.

Your reaction to rude behavior is understood and be assured you would not stand alone in such a situation. I am old enough and cranky enough to think that there is a difference between a pilgrim and a walker and that the difference is okay and acceptable. As the old saying goes, "If the shoe fits wear it." I don't know why it is so difficult to be comfortable being either one, but this is a day and age where taking offense has been raised to an art form seemingly powered by an overwhelming need to be offended at almost all things.

It is odd that you were the one there and what you so clearly felt was inappropriate behavior has been dissected. You were there and no one else was - mocking is not difficult to recognize. Some people will mock and many others will not.

I have asked myself what I would do in a similar situation. I know that my knee-jerk response would be to have uncharitable feelings towards rude people. What I hope that I would do is recognize that these individuals will not be there for too long. I need to remove myself from the trail and wait until they have passed by. Then when there is a moment or two of relative peace for me to place my stone at the foot of the cross, do so.

We are always responsible for our own happiness. Our expectations may be unrealistic and we need to be flexible enough to adapt to situations and then still experience those sacred moments that we had planned.

God bless you

 

[Ahhhs]

Wayfarer,
Since my leaving stones at the cruz de ferro seems to be a focus of many of the critical comments on this thread, it really would not make much sense to remove my post. I am simply learning how social forums can go, when people use someone else's comments on something else as a focus for their own negative thoughts and feelings, knowing that the nature of such a forum makes this acceptable. I am finding it very difficult to be a focus, if not the direct target, of such negative thoughts. However, I am always free to simply not return to the forum.

Just to be clear...none of the comments on this thread are directed to you or your post or anyone in particular. No targets. It's just a variety of people expressing their thoughts about pilgrims and monuments and stones and whatever else comes up.

 

[Botaivica]

I should like to clarify that I was not the original poster in this thread, although someone lifted my post about my most emotional moment on the camino and used it to start this thread. As something profound and personal about my pilgrimage which I had brought myself to share, I did not expect it to be quoted in another context and taken apart in detail. I cannot find any way to withdraw from this forum but I request that a Moderator remove me from the forum for the sin of thinking in Christian and religious terms about my pilgrimage. I will even give that sin a voice by saying, "God bless all of you,"

Hi Albertgirl,

first of all I apologize what I used your sensitive post to start this topic. When I read it I have bitter taste for the reaction of these people in Cruz de Ferro. How someone on the Camino can be so bed and do not respect feelings of others pilgrims? If you're not a pilgrim than walker, respect others people on Camino. Especially at a place like Cruz de Ferro.

That is the reason why am I opening this topic. Once again apologize to you what I showed your post as a pretext for this topic.

Bota

 

[Annette london]

hi anenome, i can't seem to put the end of your quote on this reply.that is interesting re the size of the stone that's put on the cruz should be proportional to ones sins. Drat!! Next time I will have to carry a boulder the whole way. A very big Boulder!

 

[MichaelB10398]

hi anenome, i can't seem to put the end of your quote on this reply.that is interesting re the size of the stone that's put on the cruz should be proportional to ones sins. Drat!! Next time I will have to carry a boulder the whole way. A very big Boulder!

That is what I thought when I read that post. First, where on earth will I find a stone that big? Second, how do I get it there? Third, do they really make trucks that big to carry that big of a stone?

I finally concluded that maybe I did not need to be so literal and that any old stone could be used to symbolically represent the burden, the heartache, the sadness that I wanted to leave behind and enter into a new phase of my life.

 

[grumerz]

Considering this site is does not have any particular religious status, one could bring their stone/rock and drop it off anywhere else on the Camino: a place with a beautiful view, at the top of xyz, etc. Dropping it of at the Cruz de Ferro doesn't add, bring, any additional meaning. For example, there are people in my life named Santiago and Domingo: much more meaningful for me to pray in a church or village named either Saint, or better yet the bith place of Santo Domingo. A roadside marker? Why not, as long as you won't be disappointed when you learn of its place in history and the fact that ot is not a religious landmark.

Quoting Rabbi David Wolpe: "For most of us, stones conjure a harsh image. It does not seem the appropriate memorial for one who has died. But stones have a special character in Judaism. In the Bible, an altar is no more than a pile of stones, but it is on an altar that one offers to God. The stone upon which Abraham takes his son to be sacrificed is called even hashityah, the foundation stone of the world. The most sacred shrine in Judaism, after all, is a pile of stones–the wall of the Second Temple." Continuing in the early Christian Church and through today, piles of stones are considered symbols for many religious activities, (including memorials, and relieving stony burdens.) Whether one believes the Cruz de Fero site is "religious," or not, is not the point here. It is impossible to believe anyone would not readily know this is a religious pilgrimage for many, (think peregrinos/peregrinas and Camino de Santiago,) and then behave like Cretans, having little respect for themselves, or others. As was noted, a stone may be dropped at any point along the Camino, but here it is being dropped, as have hundreds of thousands of others, at this altar of stones, with not insignificant purpose. However, it is not within my ken to judge the charism of others hearts, and am called to respect their beliefs, or lack thereof. Yet, it is not unreasonable to ask others, in spite of the modern dogma of "me first," to respect mine and ask for mutual self-respect, including silence and modest behavior. After all, "fun" may too be had elsewhere.

 

[t2andreo]

Wow! So many emotional posts in so short a time.

I am staying out of this debate, except to state that I am a pilgrim in the broad meaning of the word. I am a Christian who walks to a holy place to escape myself, yet to find myself, to find meaning, to experience life pared back to its essentials, to help others, to be nourished by others, to empty myself out that I might be refilled with something better, and to give and to receive what the Camino has to offer.

This said, I would simply add that the Camino has, for the first millennia of it's existence, (about 1,200 years) been primarily a Christian pilgrimage to a declared, official holy site (the relics of St. James the Greater beneath the altar at the Cathedral in Santiago de Compostela).

The Camino de Sanitago was first established for that specific purpose to walk to the crypt and to venerate the relics. That remains the central focus to this day. However, we all know that people do the Camino for any number of reasons, some religious, others more secular.

Folks who do the Camino and encounter any shrine, cross, statue, or other evidently spiritual structure or edifice should respect that standing, at least that is my view of the matter. I believe it is a matter of basic civility and respect for others. It DOES NOT declare that one religion is superior to another. It DOES declare that basic respect should be accorded others' beliefs.

Surely, those of you who have walked the full Camino Frances, have seen the pentagram (five-pointed star) window on the western wall of the old San Anton ruins? Strange? Weird? Odd? Curious? Perhaps, but who am I to judge?

Cruz de Ferro is not, in and of itself a religious structure. But, much in the same way one should not desecrate or disrespect any shrine of any religious belief system, I submit that pilgrims should not engage in frivolous behavior at this site. It is IMHO disrespectful of the millions of pilgrims who likely accord special meaning or significance. It is that reverence and significance that accords and argues for protection and respect for this, arguably, secular monument to accomplishment.

I do not know the exact, original, reason why an iron cross was mounted atop a tall wooden pole, but I do know that there are previous (well weathered and rusted) iterations of the cross displayed in museums along the Camino. For example, there is one (or more) in the Archbishop's Residence (now a museum) at Astorga. I do know that the Spanish writer, Alonso de Castillo Solórzano wrote about the cross in the early 1600s.

So, the Cruz de Ferro has been a significant location along the Camino Frances for at least 400 years. The original significance is likely lost to time. But, why not simply behave in a mature and sober manner? In an era where all sorts of problems confront our society, why NOT simply act like an adult and behave responsibly?

I know that I originally stated I would not be drawn in, but as I thought and wrote, I become more concerned about the encroaching secularization of the Camino. So, I am offering a reasonable explanation of my thoughts on this issue in the hopes that others might agree and pass it on...

I hope this clarifies the debate on this matter.

 

[grumerz]

Quoting Rabbi David Wolpe: "For most of us, stones conjure a harsh image. It does not seem the appropriate memorial for one who has died. But stones have a special character in Judaism. In the Bible, an altar is no more than a pile of stones, but it is on an altar that one offers to God. The stone upon which Abraham takes his son to be sacrificed is called even hashityah, the foundation stone of the world. The most sacred shrine in Judaism, after all, is a pile of stones–the wall of the Second Temple." Continuing in the early Christian Church and through today, piles of stones are considered symbols for many religious activities, (including memorials, and relieving stony burdens.) Whether one believes the Cruz de Fero site is "religious," or not, is not the point here. It is impossible to believe anyone would not readily know this is a religious pilgrimage for many, (think peregrinos/peregrinas and Camino de Santiago,) and then behave like Cretans, having little respect for themselves, or others. As was noted, a stone may be dropped at any point along the Camino, but here it is being dropped, as have hundreds of thousands of others, at this altar of stones, with not insignificant purpose. However, it is not within my ken to judge the charism of others hearts, and am called to respect their beliefs, or lack thereof. Yet, it is not unreasonable to ask others, in spite of the modern dogma of "me first," to respect mine and ask for mutual self-respect, including silence and modest behavior. After all, "fun" may too be had elsewhere.

 

[vgen5122]

When I walked the Camino I was a pilgrim. I prayed, meditated, stayed in albergues etc. it is my belief that if you are a pilgrim that is great. If you are a walker that's great too. The two journeys may be different and that's ok. I believe what everyone has been trying to say is that if you are pilgrim or walker we must try and be respectful of one another. Be kind to one another and not judge mental.
To me Cruz de Ferro is a very special place. People stop there and pray or sometimes leave a token that symbolises their journey , or memorialises a love one. If the pile of symbols and stones from all over the world is bulldozed every year for some reason or another, it does not take away from the reason that I came. Bulldozed or not, when I placed my stone upon the ground, it will always remain ( in the earth-no matter, if 10feet away or underground) as a symbol of my journey and in Spanish ground on the Camino de Santiago.
I would feel this way even if Cruz de Ferro got turned into a mall a hundred years from now. Lol!
I truely respect the beliefs of people that may not feel as I do, but in turn the beliefs of other people must also be respected.Buen Camino

 

[Levi]

In their book about Santiago,Gitlitz and Davidson talk about the stones resulting from a variety of ancient customs - Celtic cairns and Roman travellers leaving stones in honour of the God Mercury. And that the cross was added by the hermit Gaucelo, essentially Christianising a pagan monument. Whatever the truth I believe it is a 'thin' place and very powerful...and are we not all pilgrims - one way or another?

 

[t2andreo]

Wow! Thank you for liking what I had to offer.

I was convinced that one of my nemesis, secular "moderators" would have censored and deleted me...

The Camino continues to provide...

 

[Botaivica]

Hi everyone
where I see the difference between pilgrims and walkers.
The first in behavior. Pilgrim respects religious objects on Camino, walkers may not. Pilgrim made a prayed, walkers do not. Pilgrim going to Mass, walkers nope.
Also, pilgrim sleeps in albergues, walkers mostly in hostel or hotel. Pilgrim eat pilgrim menu, walkers go to a restaurant. Walker buy shell at the beginning, pilgrims on the end of Camino.
So, this is my look at that, probably not complete and different from some of you.

Bota

 

[Annette london]

Wow! Thank you for liking what I had to offer.

I was convinced that one of my nemesis, secular "moderators" would have censored and deleted me...

The Camino continues to provide...

I can't see why you would have been censored. You have put things in a very nice respectful way as have many others. We are walkers and have walked a few of the caminos. Although "just"walkers we are drawn to the Camino time and time again. I'm a "bit" religious, not so my husband but we find the way to be quite an emotional one in ways that our other walking trips are not. Thank God we have never seen any disrespect from people in any of our Camino walks. If we had,then I don't think we would be so charitable to them as to say nothing!! For as the saying goes"evil flourishes when good men do nothing"

 

[Annette london]

Hi everyone
where I see the difference between pilgrims and walkers.
The first in behavior. Pilgrim respects religious objects on Camino, walkers may not. Pilgrim made a prayed, walkers do not. Pilgrim going to Mass, walkers nope.
Also, pilgrim sleeps in albergues, walkers mostly in hostel or hotel. Pilgrim eat pilgrim menu, walkers go to a restaurant. Walker buy shell at the beginning, pilgrims on the end of Camino.
So, this is my look at that, probably not complete and different from some of you.

Bota

Hi bota, dear oh dear. Defenitely cannot agree with you on this one!!! But we will agree to disagree!! By the way, we are always happy with the pilgrim menu!! And we have a shell! And our house is covered in Camino memorabilia. And we visit all the churches and go to mass when we can! And yes we are "just" walkers! Best wishes annette

 

[lettinggo]

Hola

I haven't written a message in a long time here as I mostly enjoy reading the random thread reminding me of the important experience it was for me walking the camino.
But this thread is a bit strange and it has the potential drama which shows its face at times at the forum.

First I thought I should write:
A legless man can be a walker
as well as pilgrim may not be a pilgrim at all

Something cryptical to try to get people to stop and think; huu?

After pondering about it for a short time I think it just is better to address it as simple as possible.
A pilgrim is a person who journey to a sacred place as an act of religious devotion. (this is one definition. I am sure there are others)
One can argue that a pilgrim now a days may as well fly directly to Santiago and go to the Cathedral. Pilgrimage done.
If the pilgrim, as many do, start in Saint Jean or Sarria or Barcelona or Alicante, they walk to Santiago and it is this walk which is a period of contemplation and constitute their pilgrimage (often).
Ergo: The pilgrim is a walker...
A walker which is not religious, and thus is not on a pilgrimage, undertakes the exact same task and the impact on this persons life is indistinctable from a pilgrims experience. It is simply just different.
What is a like between the two, in my opinion, is the life changing effect it may result in.
The walker may become a pilgrim or the other way around.
Priorities may be found to change the course of ones life.
Friends or spouses may be found along the way.
Understanding of life, existence, universe, humanity, friendship, forgiveness, patience, tolerance, love.

Regardless what happens, the eye which see only the mistakes of others will be blind to that which matters the most: compassion.

Buen Camino
Lettinggo

 

[Tincatinker]

Oh @lettinggo , welcome back! The eye which only sees the mistakes of others. I wish I'd written that, oh how I wish I'd written that.

 

[dollytz]

Hi bota, dear oh dear. Defenitely cannot agree with you on this one!!! But we will agree to disagree!! By the way, we are always happy with the pilgrim menu!! And we have a shell! And our house is covered in Camino memorabilia. And we visit all the churches and go to mass when we can! And yes we are "just" walkers! Best wishes annette

Sorry Bota, have to disagree. I'll be visiting the churches, sleeping in albergues,attending mass, eating the pilgrims menu, carrying a shell. It's all part of the Camino experience, walker or pilgrim. Although I will be having the odd night in a hostel!

 

[dougfitz]

Wow! So many emotional posts in so short a time.

I am staying out of this debate, except to state that I am a pilgrim in the broad meaning of the word. I am a Christian who walks to a holy place to escape myself, yet to find myself, to find meaning, to experience life pared back to its essentials, to help others, to be nourished by others, to empty myself out that I might be refilled with something better, and to give and to receive what the Camino has to offer.

This said, I would simply add that the Camino has, for the first millennia of it's existence, (about 1,200 years) been primarily a Christian pilgrimage to a declared, official holy site (the relics of St. James the Greater beneath the altar at the Cathedral in Santiago de Compostela).

The Camino de Sanitago was first established for that specific purpose to walk to the crypt and to venerate the relics. That remains the central focus to this day. However, we all know that people do the Camino for any number of reasons, some religious, others more secular.

Folks who do the Camino and encounter any shrine, cross, statue, or other evidently spiritual structure or edifice should respect that standing, at least that is my view of the matter. I believe it is a matter of basic civility and respect for others. It DOES NOT declare that one religion is superior to another. It DOES declare that basic respect should be accorded others' beliefs.

Surely, those of you who have walked the full Camino Frances, have seen the pentagram (five-pointed star) window on the western wall of the old San Anton ruins? Strange? Weird? Odd? Curious? Perhaps, but who am I to judge?

Cruz de Ferro is not, in and of itself a religious structure. But, much in the same way one should not desecrate or disrespect any shrine of any religious belief system, I submit that pilgrims should not engage in frivolous behavior at this site. It is IMHO disrespectful of the millions of pilgrims who likely accord special meaning or significance. It is that reverence and significance that accords and argues for protection and respect for this, arguably, secular monument to accomplishment.

I do not know the exact, original, reason why an iron cross was mounted atop a tall wooden pole, but I do know that there are previous (well weathered and rusted) iterations of the cross displayed in museums along the Camino. For example, there is one (or more) in the Archbishop's Residence (now a museum) at Astorga. I do know that the Spanish writer, Alonso de Castillo Solórzano wrote about the cross in the early 1600s.

So, the Cruz de Ferro has been a significant location along the Camino Frances for at least 400 years. The original significance is likely lost to time. But, why not simply behave in a mature and sober manner? In an era where all sorts of problems confront our society, why NOT simply act like an adult and behave responsibly?

I know that I originally stated I would not be drawn in, but as I thought and wrote, I become more concerned about the encroaching secularization of the Camino. So, I am offering a reasonable explanation of my thoughts on this issue in the hopes that others might agree and pass it on...

I hope this clarifies the debate on this matter.

Wow, if this is staying out of the debate, what is it like when you are engaged?

 

[CaminoDebrita]

Robo,
This experience has shown me something that I should have considered more carefully: the personal risks to being on an online forum. I find it very hard to communicate with other people who have walked a pilgrimage route that has been profoundly meaningful to me and to confine my comments to what kind of clothes to wear. I really don't care. I would walk the pilgrimage route naked if it were the only way I could do it. But I should know better than to let myself be emotionally or spiritually naked. I have been on this forum for a year and have only just realized my monumental stupidity in revealing too much of myself. This makes me want to hide in a hole, where I can be safe (there, I've done it again, I really am too stupid to be on a social forum).

You are NOT stupid. You are a kind, considerate woman. There--I did it. I was honest.

Your words were used to start a discussion, and I don't think it was fair of the original poster here to do that. Apparently, your words were provocative and interested to him, however. And there is never anything wrong with being an interesting person!

 

[Tincatinker]

"The Mods should be involved..." We are. And we are involved as we always try to be. Helping members to stay within the rules of the forum while enabling free and open discussion about Camino related topics. Sensitive, we hope, to individual members feelings and intents.

I posted a caution at the commencement of this thread. That caution still applies. Meanwhile...

 

[J F Gregory]

I have been through a lot in life. Alcohol, drugs, abandonment all part of a pilgrimage of life. After I became a believer of the Way I learned this song:
I am a pilgrim and a stranger

Traveling through this wearisome land
I've got a home in that yonder city, good Lord
And it's not, not made by hand

I've got a mother, sister and a brother
Who have gone this way before
I am determined to go and see them, good Lord
For they're on that other shore

I'm goin' down to the river of Jordan
Just to bathe my wearisome soul
If I can just touch the hem of his garment, good Lord
Then I know he'd take me home

I am a pilgrim and a stranger
Traveling through this wearisome land
I've got a home in that yonder city, good Lord
And it's not, not made by hand

Songwriters: TRAVIS, MERLE

I have used this has my life anthem. In March I will walk my Camino as part of my life pilgrimage.

 

[dougfitz]

The original poster should have asked @Albertagirl before using her ideas. I think that given how much debate and back-and-forth has ensued, this thread should be deleted, as it included HER words, not his, and she is clearly uncomfortable with this.

I would ask the mods to get involved here.

I don't agree with either of these points. The quote used was made in a public place where any forum member could have commented on it. It doesn't seem important to me that the commentary has to stay in the original thread.

As for the moderators getting involved, if you believe a post or posts break the rules, report that. As far as I can tell, this is one of those topics that gets an airing from time to time, generates more heat than light, but always has some small gem that adds to my understanding of the complexity that is the Camino.

I am happy to be a walker, and perhaps I am also a pilgrim. I only see other walkers. I cannot truly know what is in their hearts and minds, and neither is it important to me necessarily to know.

 

[Kurt5280]

God does not require you to leave notes to him.

I have seen three major religious sites around the world...Vatican City...Jerusalem...Santiago...the most memorable notes I saw left to God...were at Saint Peters Basilica in Vatican City...Western Wall in Jerusalem...and the Tomb of Saint James in Santiago...and I left a note for God a one of these three places too...not required but still appreciated.

 

[SabsP]

Hi everyone
where I see the difference between pilgrims and walkers.
The first in behavior. Pilgrim respects religious objects on Camino, walkers may not. Pilgrim made a prayed, walkers do not. Pilgrim going to Mass, walkers nope.
Also, pilgrim sleeps in albergues, walkers mostly in hostel or hotel. Pilgrim eat pilgrim menu, walkers go to a restaurant. Walker buy shell at the beginning, pilgrims on the end of Camino.
So, this is my look at that, probably not complete and different from some of you.

Bota

Only the HEART of the individual/ walker knows and more importantly feels what he or she is.
When walking , my meditation can be a prayer...What does this make me? Hopefully a better and more content human being.
Am I a lesser pilgrim because I don't eat a pilgrim's menu every day and don't sleep in the simplest albergues? I don't think so : the circumstances made it possible for me to spend a little more on my pilgrimage thus leaving the donativos to those who really need it.

 

[GettingThere]

Hi everyone
where I see the difference between pilgrims and walkers.
The first in behavior. Pilgrim respects religious objects on Camino, walkers may not. Pilgrim made a prayed, walkers do not. Pilgrim going to Mass, walkers nope.
Also, pilgrim sleeps in albergues, walkers mostly in hostel or hotel. Pilgrim eat pilgrim menu, walkers go to a restaurant. Walker buy shell at the beginning, pilgrims on the end of Camino.
So, this is my look at that, probably not complete and different from some of you.

Bota

@Botaivica it will be interesting to know if your view of this changes when you have walked your Camino. You imagine two very different groups walking the Camino in very different ways - it isn't as simple as that, and you will have seen from others' comments that motivations for walking the Camino are many and complex. As in life itself, nothing is black-and-white, one or the other. It is rarely possible to know what is in a person's heart from their outward appearance or behaviour. And as someone said above, some people start out thinking they are just walking, and find so much more in the experience. I hope your Camino is everything you hope for. I hope also that you will perhaps return to this discussion after your Camino and write about whether your impression of those who walk the Camino has changed in any way.

Buen Camino

 

[Annette london]

Every time this post on walkers and pilgrims comes up it gets more heated as time goes on and I enjoy it so much. I agree with caminodebrita that Alberta girl is a kind person. Sometimes it's the nice kind people that are so hurt by off the wall comments. What drives me mad is the "holier than thou" attitudes re walkers on the Camino. When we have walked we can never tell the difference between walkers and true pilgrims. Can anyone?? As long as people are respectful of each other and the places they pass does it really matter? And sometimes those who start the journey as walkers end It as pilgrims.

 

[Botaivica]

@Botaivica it will be interesting to know if your view of this changes when you have walked your Camino. You imagine two very different groups walking the Camino in very different ways - it isn't as simple as that, and you will have seen from others' comments that motivations for walking the Camino are many and complex. As in life itself, nothing is black-and-white, one or the other. It is rarely possible to know what is in a person's heart from their outward appearance or behaviour. And as someone said above, some people start out thinking they are just walking, and find so much more in the experience. I hope your Camino is everything you hope for. I hope also that you will perhaps return to this discussion after your Camino and write about whether your impression of those who walk the Camino has changed in any way.

Buen Camino

Only the HEART of the individual/ walker knows and more importantly feels what he or she is.
When walking , my meditation can be a prayer...What does this make me? Hopefully a better and more content human being.
Am I a lesser pilgrim because I don't eat a pilgrim's menu every day and don't sleep in the simplest albergues? I don't think so : the circumstances made it possible for me to spend a little more on my pilgrimage thus leaving the donativos to those who really need it.

Hi SabineP & GettingThere

first, english is not my language so I apologize for the error.
Secondly, discussions started in the direction of the stones, how large stones ....... so I wanted to bring back on topic and wrote this post on pilgrims and walker.
Also, historically, for centuries, the Camino passed pilgrims,
now we have and hikers or walker. For centuries pilgrims don't use benefits that we now have. therefore I write about pilgrims what they done in historically view.

We come from different countries and we have different views, which to me is normal. And it is normally that these differences appreciate and respect.

Bota

 

[AJ]

Regarding photo ops, I have read articles that advise people where to stand in the Cathedral in SDC to get the best photos during the Pilgrim's Mass, a place of great significance and sacredness and for which I've not yet read anyone disparaging those taking photos/videos during a religious ceremony.

Neither have I. Reminds me of seeing people taking photos of each other "praying" in Notre Dame, Paris. What are they really doing?

 

[simply B]

As to the original question, I tend towards ambivalence as, for me personally, it appears to not be a fixed condition either way.

Regarding sacredness of places, I side strongly with Wendell Berry (I think!) who observed: "Every place is sacred until we desecrate it."

B

 

[MTtoCamino]

We can all agree on the simple request show compassion

 

[Kathor1]

By definition aren't we modern pilgrims? And if, as Nancy Frey writes, it is a informal shrine since the mid-1990's then why is it so bad to respect it as such? Every meaningful tradition or act was new at some point and to see and read what meaning it gives to people makes it sacred in my view.
Regarding photo ops, I have read articles that advise people where to stand in the Cathedral in SDC to get the best photos during the Pilgrim's Mass, a place of great significance and sacredness and for which I've not yet read anyone disparaging those taking photos/videos during a religious ceremony.

The two references to photo ops are not the same but you treat them as the same and that fudges the issues a bit. The Cathedral in SDC is a Roman Catholic church. There is no doubt that it is a sacred place for Roman Catholics. There are even formal procedures to make churches sacred and keep them sacred. There is no room for discussion whether they should be respected as a sacred place by everyone. I personally don't understand why photographing is allowed during service in any church.

There is a modern narrative that pilgrims have brought stones or mementos to the Cruz de Ferro from home and have done so since time immemorial. A poster in this thread asked for proof. I am also interested in such a proof because I am interested in the history of pilgrimage - mainly medieval history, modern history not so much. Up to the 1980s, no one who had walked as a pilgrim reports such a tradition. I quoted Frey not because she mentions a photo-op but because of the total absence of any reference to such earlier pilgrim traditions of bringing stones and mementos from home. Local people on their way to work, and perhaps the military before them, threw stones on a stone heap when they passed it, at the place now called Cruz de Ferro and elsewhere. That's all.

I don't know whether one can just claim any open public space as sacred.

 

[Kathor1]

Also, historically, for centuries, the Camino passed pilgrims,
now we have and hikers or walker

I think this is part of the problem and the conflicts: the network of roads that is called Camino has always been a space that has been shared by pilgrims, by locals in their daily life, by the military, and by traders and business travellers. It was not a sacred place, not then and not now. To a large extent, the modern infrastructure is what it is today because it has been promoted and funded as a cultural and historic way with an extraordinary amount of cultural heritage (mainly buildings) from the High and Late Middle Ages (Baja Edad Media).

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Pilgrim eat pilgrim menu, walkers go to a restaurant.

Bota

Well, the only pilgrim menus I have ever seen were served in restaurants ....

 

[Ahhhs]

To each their own.