methodist.pilgrim.98
R.I.P 2013
- Time of past OR future Camino
- Francés (2004.SJPP-SdC-Finisterre)(1998-2012 completed in sections). Norte (2006.122km) Inglés (2009)
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On this forum a lot has already been posted on Heavenly and Mortal Twins. Read full text on line: The cult of the heavenly twins (1906) by Harris, J. Rendel (James Rendel), 1852-1941 on http://www.archive.org/details/cultofheavenlytw00harrCaminando said:Heavenly Twins
Methodist Pilgrim says: "I love the way this forum allows us to get from "are the relics of St. James really in the crypt" through heresy, church history, witchcraft, bare feet, farmers, theology, fleeing from Matron and academic argument to finally end up at tea totalism and real ale. It couldn't happen anywhere else."
Found a few more on http://www.uvm.edu/~bsaylor/rome/clas196.html :TerryB said:If anyone out there is as interested as I am about this discussion I recommend that they get hold of Henry Chadwick's book.
Catholic EncyclopediaWith regard to the preaching of the Gospel in Spain by St. James the greater, several difficulties have been raised:
St. James suffered martyrdom A.D. 44 (Acts 12:2), and, according to the tradition of the early Church, he had not yet left Jerusalem at this time (cf. Clement of Alexandria, Stromata VI; Apollonius, quoted by Eusebius, Church History VI.18).
St. Paul in his Epistle to the Romans (A.D. 58) expressed the intention to visit Spain (Romans 15:24) just after he had mentioned (15:20) that he did not "build upon another man's foundation."
The argument ex silentio: although the tradition that James founded an Apostolic see in Spain was current in the year 700, no certain mention of such tradition is to be found in the genuine writings of early writers nor in the early councils; the first certain mention we find in the ninth century, in Notker, a monk of St. Gall (Martyrol., 25 July), Walafried Strabo (Poema de XII Apost.), and others.
The tradition was not unanimously admitted afterwards, while numerous scholars reject it. The Bollandists however defended it (see Acta Sanctorum, July, VI and VII, where other sources are given).
The authenticity of the sacred relic of Compostela has been questioned and is still doubted. Even if St. James the Greater did not preach the Christian religion in Spain, his body may have been brought to Compostela, and this was already the opinion of Notker. According to another tradition, the relics of the Apostle are kept in the church of St-Saturnin at Toulouse (France), but it is not improbable that such sacred relics should have been divided between two churches. A strong argument in favour of the authenticity of the sacred relics of Compostela is the Bull of Leo XIII, "Omnipotens Deus," of 1 November, 1884.
The question remains "Where was the shrine?"Possibly a native of Galicia. (Noted in 'Legio VII Gemina' by A. Quintana Prieto.446 n. 90)
His teachings were condemned at the Council of Saragossa in 380 A.D. He was not named in the published Canons of the Council nor was he excommunicated. However 'the minutes of the Council would have included attacks on named individuals, including . . . Priscillian.' (Chadwick)
In 381 the see of Avila fell vacant. The bishops Instantius and Salvianus went there and achieved the election and consecration of Priscillian. No other bishop is named as being present which may have cast doubts on the 'consecration' itself.
By early 382 a number of charges against "pseudo-bishops and Manichees" were made in a report to Ambrose of Milan by Hydatius of Bishop Mérida and Ithacius Bishop of Ossonuba. Priscillian, Instantius, Salvianus and a number of followers visited Rome and Milan. They were denied audience by both pope Damasus in Rome and Bishop Ambrose in Milan.
In 383A.D. the emperor Gratian was defeated by Maximus and murdered . The new emperor was approached by the Bishop Ithacius who presented grave criminal charges against the Priscillianists.
Priscillian was convinced that there would be no justice for him and his followers at the synod in Burdigala (Bordeaux) and went to appeal to the emperor Maximus in Trier.
In the secular court in Trier the charges brought by Ithacius were that Priscillian held a heretical doctrine of the Trinity, studied heretical apocrypha, practiced magic and taught the radical dualism of the Manichees.
"Under judicial examination (torture!) Priscillian confessed to his interest in magical studies, to having held nocturnal gatherings of (loose) women, and to having prayed naked" (Chadwick). He was found guilty of sorcery and executed along with two other clergy, a wealthy widow Euchrotia and Latronianus a Christian poet.
The trial at Trier was condemned by Martin of Tours, Ambrose of Milan and pope Siricius.
In 388 Maximus fell to the emperor Theodosius and was declared to be 'a wicked usurper'.
"The fall of Maximus spelt a reversal of policy which was golden news for the Spanish Priscillianists. Ithacius was canonically deposed from his see. Hydatius of Mérida resigned and both went into exile." (Chadwick)
In Galicia Priscillian was celebrated as a martyr, his body recovered from Trier and taken back to Spain for burial. His shrine seems to have been somewhere in Galicia, rather than at his own church in Avila. Oaths were solemnly sworn at his shrine and Priscillianism became the major 'creed' of the Galician church.
In 400 A.D the Council of Toledo demanded that the Priscillianist bishops swore an oath condemning 'everything that Priscillian wrote contrary to the catholic faith'. Priscillianist bishops had the choice of renouncing their heretical beliefs or deposition from their sees. Four of the bishops (not necessarily all from Galicia) present at Toledo refused to recant. They stated simply, that they would lose the support of all their clergy and their people if they did so.
My gut feeling says he was there. My homework is on http://pilgrimsplaza-king-index.blogspo ... ianus.htmlTerryB said:I do like to know what is what!
Sorry I cannot accept that!Therefore S. James must have another twin: and was he not [AND MONO GRAPHS 346 -One goes to the underworld - Evidence from Iconography - WAY OF S.JAMES] already, in Canonical Scripture, the Brother of the Lord? The mortal twin, the chthonian power, is S. James: the divine, in heaven, is Jesus: but on the baldachin at Compostella S. James ruled.
Also an interesting point, Tracy. Doesn't Thomas also means 'twin' or something that (or someone who?) has been cut, split or divided (like in vasectomy)? So why the dual signal twin-twin?Priscillian said:Thomas is often called Dydimus which means "Twin"
There is no direct reference in the Canonical N.T. to John being the younger of the brothers. It is only in St. Luke's Gospel that John is named before his brother James. In the other three Gospels he comes after James. Probably by the time Luke was writing the names of Peter and John were linked together. Before that, John was named after James as he was the younger of the two brothers. They are usually accepted as the sons of Salome, who was sister of Mary the mother of Jesus. James and John = cousins of Jesus Christ.From Tracey - . . . . . . John is almost always depicted as being considerably younger (maybe someone can find me a reference from scripture as to whether this was the case?)
Thomas does indeed mean 'twin' in Aramaic. The name Thomas is used on its own in the three Synoptic Gospels. St. John's Gospel uses "Thomas Didymus" usually translated as "Thomas, also called the twin". Didymus is Greek for "twin", so St. John uses both the Aramaic and Greek versions. Possibly writing in Greek for those who did not understand Aramaic.PilgrimsPlaza asked - . . . . Doesn't Thomas also means 'twin' or something that (or someone who?) has been cut, split or divided (like in vasectomy)? So why the dual signal twin-twin?
Probably the most startling result of his work, and that of other geneticists as well, is that 'lost' peoples such as the Picts of Scotland or Celts generally in England did not vanish genetically even if they did culturally. They live on in all of us of British descent. Other points of interest include the apparent confirmation that legends of Celtic migration from the Middle East through Iberia to the British Isles are based upon fact, that there are close genetic connection between the Picts and the British Celts
Half of my large family are devout people calling each other (in fact all members of their congregation) Brother or Sister even when they have different parents. Could it be that the twin relations we are discussing here have a deeper significance than sharing a short blood line? See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twins_in_mythologyTerryB said:... brothers ... cousins ... twins...
Could it be that the twin relations we are discussing here have a deeper significance than sharing a short blood line?
Not speculating; only asking a question... After a good night's sleep and thinking about posting this, your sincerity convinced me that it's OK so here it is:TerryB said:Speculation again I am afraid!
Rabbi Steve Cohen: “Certainty is where we end up when we lose faith because we are too scared of what we think we know being wrong, and to me, that is the ultimate, that is death. The people here get sick of me saying this, but you haven’t heard me say it so I will say it again, but I say over and over again that I will always prefer a good question to a good answer because a good answer stops the conversation, but a good question gets us talking— that, to me, is a stance of faith.”
Update 1-9-2011 (more on Boarnerges and Heavenly Twins on this forum from around 2008)twins, cousins, brothers... soul-mates? ... - a few links will follow soon on a new post Boanerges
Is it really that simple? I just read that our two James's are “often identified”.TerryB said:I am surprised that James 'son of thunder' and James Minor are mixed up again!!!
A long, dry & warm evening, a comfy chair, good company, no muzak and plenty of real cold ale! Thank you & Cheers!methodist.pilgrim.98 said:Or am I missing something here?
real cold ale!
Ahhhhh. A hand-pumped ale. I linger for a pint or two...methodist.pilgrim.98 said:In England we have real ale (it comes in numerous varieties from lots of small breweries). It is never served cold!real cold ale!
Found some more interesting sources: http://infocatolica.com/?t=noticia&cod=9449 – http://blogs.periodistadigital.com/boka ... 27/p297908 - [in babblefish translation] ...Some evildoers and many idiots maintain or insinuate that in the tomb hereje Prisciliano, a lie born in the century XIX is buried, and that as all the anticatholic lies have the long legs. Others, like the Scholastic family of escribidores, father and son, arrive at the blasphemy. But, fortunately for them, this one will even be forgiven to them… they request if it... - http://mas.laopinioncoruna.es/suplement ... e-atanasio - Don't shoot the messenger! :|Priscillian said:http://www.elcorreogallego.es/santiago/ecg/revelador-hallazgo-historico-sepulcro-apostol-santiago/idEdicion-2011-06-25/idNoticia-681950/
Love it! Note source..Some evildoers and many idiots maintain or insinuate that in the tomb hereje Prisciliano, a lie born in the century XIX is buried, and that as all the anticatholic lies have the long legs.
The picture shows what I have always suspected. Priscillian WAS a hunk.
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