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Are St James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral?

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

At one point in his life the founder of Methodism, Rev John Wesley, recommended that his followers should not drink tea because of the high cost entailed in buying it.

I'm not sure what he suggested as an alternative because he was well aware of the problem of drunkedness that beset his age.

Part of me would love to be tea total, but I enjoy going to our local pub to take part in a quiz and trying out the latest guest real ale (the only alcohol I drink). Mind you at the moment I couldn't half do with an Estrella Damn.

I love the way this forum allows us to get from "are the relics of St. James really in the crypt" through heresy, church history, witchcraft, bare feet, farmers, theology, fleeing from Matron and academic argument to finally end up at tea totalism and real ale. It couldn't happen anywhere else!
 
Join the Camino cleanup. Logroño to Burgos May 2025 & Astorga to OCebreiro in June
Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Absolutely - non-sequiturs ain't in it - and, of course tea-total! not tee-total (that would be a compulsive golfer).
I really love it too as the threads usually swing back round again.

John Wesley - now there is man I would have liked to hear preach at one of his open air meetings. It would appear that he changed lives just by speaking, that good man. Attacked by mobs, riots because of his preaching, stoned, pushed off walls, imprisoned, and still he carried on - a great man. He drank Apple Tea by the way - which I assume is hot apple juice.

Of tea and tea-totalism. My understanding is that Karl Marx refused to drink ordinary English ' builders' tea whilst in England. He is even quoted as saying that "proper tea is theft" .... or something similar.

Of John Wesley, The New Room in Bristol is the oldest Methodist Chapel in the world, built in 1739 by John Wesley (or rather, he had it built), it is still a working chapel. John Wesley is buried at the rear of his London chapel - a place of pilgrimage to this day, so there are no 'remains' in Bristol. But if you go to the chapel in Bristol you can 'feel' his presence. So he is not there, yet he is there - which suggests that although there are sacred spaces we also carry that sacred space within us.

If this is the case then it matters not an iota exactly which bones rest in Santiago - what matters is that that sacred space inside us opens and we connect, deeply connect - and in that sense St James is there, is always there, has always been there.

Don't you think?
 
Heavenly and Mortal Twins

Caminando said:
Heavenly Twins
On this forum a lot has already been posted on Heavenly and Mortal Twins. Read full text on line: The cult of the heavenly twins (1906) by Harris, J. Rendel (James Rendel), 1852-1941 on http://www.archive.org/details/cultofheavenlytw00harr

Also full text on line: The Dioscuri in the Christian legends (1903) by Harris, J. Rendel (James Rendel), 1852-1941 on http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924099385084

on heavenly twins: miscellaneous-topics/topic3632.html#p21372 and

on The Mortal Twin miscellaneous-about-santiago/topic3794.html#p20698 referring to

The way of Saint James (1920) Volume 3 by King, Georgiana Goddard, 1871-1939 in http://www.archive.org/details/waysaintjames03kinggoog [replace 03 by 02 and 01 for the other Volumes of this fascinating masterpiece] [all full text on line]

Enjoy; it’s magic!
Geerτ
 
A selection of Camino Jewellery
Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

I think the quote is ;- "History teaches us, that history teaches us nothing!"
It was john Wesley that brought this to mind. If he had lived in the 4th. C. he may have gone to the block with Priscillian! Again my memory may be wrong but I think it was the Bishop of Bristol who said - "Enthusiasm Mr. Wesley, is a nasty, nasty thing." There are records of people being 'slain in the Spirit' when Wesley was preaching. He 'trespassed' on the turf of other clergy, and certainly did not obey his bishop when he felt that the Lord was saying something different. :shock:
Sadly the Methodist Church did not learn from his example as in 1862 they banned William and Catherine Booth (founders of the Salvation Army)from their pulpits!
Throughout history we find the 'established church' seeking to control the free Spirit of God with rules and regulations.
Priscillian was certainly a 'charismatic' and a 'free thinker' and as such a threat to church order and the established heirarchy.
A number of years ago I was called a 'maverick'! :shock: The person who said it meant it to be derogatory. I was delighted!!! A maverick is a steer that breaks away from the herd and is running free! That's me :D
Blessings
Terry
 
Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Priscillian was not a "Catholic", but he was a Christian. His main source of reference was the Bible which he exhorted his followers to read "day and night". Of course he also said they should read apocrypha which included some books, well, not very well looked upon by then shall we say?
The Manicheans (including St. Augustine, but he bailed out round about the time Priscillian got the chop. Wonder why...?) were followers of the prophet Mani. There were no "Christian Manicheans". That would be rather like saying one was a Mithraic Christian. Lots and LOTs of similarities there - and boy did Emperor Constantine know that. No, if anything, Priscillian was a Priscillianist. Perhaps even more so than Christ was a Christian.
(Incoming!!! Duck .......!)
Priscillian's message came "from the East", probably Egypt. But by the 4th century there were probably more Christians (the Copts for a start, and also those in Ethiopia) in that region of the world than in Spain or France. Those Christians were anything but "Catholic".
http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.blogspot.com
 
Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Methodist Pilgrim says: "I love the way this forum allows us to get from "are the relics of St. James really in the crypt" through heresy, church history, witchcraft, bare feet, farmers, theology, fleeing from Matron and academic argument to finally end up at tea totalism and real ale. It couldn't happen anywhere else."

Me too. Fun ain't it. Oh, and I think you mean Estrella Galicia? Big difference.
 
Perfect memento/gift in a presentation box. Engraving available, 25 character max.
Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Tracy, please, please don't make up history for your own cause. :|

Priscilian was a Christian and Catholic. True, the western church was trying to root out diverse and divergent beliefs but they were all Christians and as they were part of the church of Rome, necessarily both Catholic and Christian. There was a strong Christian presence in Spain at that time, including Bishoprics.
Priscilian was excommunicated by Rome at a synod in Saragossa in 380 - you cannot excommunicate someone who isn't a member - but Ithacius refused to do this and ordained him and made him a Bishop. He was a Catholic Bishop at the same time that he was a follower of Mani and held heretical beliefs. But you must know this.
Of course you could be both a Catholic (under the jurisdiction of Rome) and a heretic with Manachean beliefs - that was what the heresy trials were all about - eradicating what Rome considered to be heresies from within its ranks.
As for being a Manichaean Christian - isn't that what the Cathars believed themselves to be? Les Bonne Hommes, the good Christians?

As for Augustine - you play more games - Augustine was a Manichaean until he converted to Christianity, from where his career began.

Why do you do this? The academic process is to have an idea and then test it against truth and known facts, not to bend those facts to fit what you already believe - even if it does make an interesting book or two. We are surrounded by so many lies in the present day, surely we can try for truth in history? :|
 
Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Sorry, Br. David, but I don't agree with you, I am NOT making anything up.
First of all, YOU should check YOUR facts. It was Instantius and Silvianus who ordained Priscillian Bishop of Ávila, not Ithacius who along with Hydatius of Mérida was one of his accusers and the one most responsible for his death at the hands of the Roman secular arm (although Priscillian handed himself to them on a plate).
The only part I have "made up" is the love between Priscillian and Euchrotia simply because given Euchrotia's martyrdom it is the only thing that makes sense. Priscillian was accused of aborting Procula's child. I simply cannot accpot this. I know Priscillian by now. This was one more fabrication on the part of those who would destroy him and his followers. As were the stories of orgies and so on! REad the man. HE was a REAL Christian. His accusers (Catholics all) were NOT!
I'll grant you the Catholic connection, but only because Catholicism was, by the time of the Synod of Bordeaux, the state religion.
Where on earth do you make a Manichaean connection to the Cathars? Even the Bogomils were not Manichaeans. Personally, I think that too much has been made of the connection between these two Christian sects. The Good Men existed in the region of the Pyrennees long before Bishop Nicetas' visit to Toulouse in 1164. The Cathars worshipped as the early (non-Catholic) Christians did, and THEY were not Catholics! Catholicism, as you know, became the official Roman religion in, I believe 380. Were there not bishops before that time?

Augustine jumped ship. Then he was the Lady who Protested Too Much. He was not a very nice man anyway. He lived with a woman for years and had a child with her and then when he thought he could gain prestige elsewhere he abandoned them both. St. Ambrose couldn't stand him and Ambrose spoke up for Priscillian. You should read YOUR history...

Why do you do this? The academic process is to have an idea and then test it against truth and known facts, not to bend those facts to fit what you already believe - even if it does make an interesting book or two. We are surrounded by so many lies in the present day, surely we can try for truth in history?
Why do I do this? For the very reason you state: to try to bring some truth into this Jacobean Myth. If it is truth you want, then petition Rome for carbon dating of the remains in that glistening sarcophagus. Wasn't that what this thread was set up to question?

And for the last time! QUIT accusing me of trying to sell books! I have written a book. A good book. One which hopes to get people thinking. It has taken all-in-all ten years of my life, ten good years in which I have learned a great deal, and learned to filter truth from falsehood (as is my training. I hold a Master's in Philosophy). As I have already said to you (twice), unless I have a best seller, I will never recoup the time and money I have put into this project. I do this for the LOVE OF TRUTH and the heartfelt desire to clear Priscillian's name.

You want truth in history? Have a word with the Archdiosese of the Cathedral of Santiago. Talk with the Xunta of Galicia. You'd be doing me (and Priscillian) a big favour.
Matron, having gotten her rant concluded, is Over and Out of here!

Oh, a PS: I just noticed. Priscillian was not excommunicated at the Synod of Zaragoza because nobody was excommunicated. The pope sent message that no-one could be excommunicated if they were not present. Neither Priscillian nor Instantius nor Sylvianus were present. Symposius, bishop of Astorga was. He left in disgust and reported the goings on to Priscillian who as a layman at the time (he was not yet in Holy Orders) was not actually required to attend. The "fact" of (official) excommunication is HIGHLY contended.
You won't get me on my knowledge of this period, Br. David. Ten years, remember... (much of it on this Forum, I think!) ? And now another 30 minutes!!!

http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.com
http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.blogspot.com
 
Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

And now I'm going to make myself a cup of tea! Maybe two... :wink:
 
A selection of Camino Jewellery
Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Oh dear, what an angry person you are Tracy.
Gautama said that "you aren't punished for your anger, you are punished by your anger" so I will leave your situation with you.

It is fairly obvious, Tracy, that when one mentions Catholicism and the church in/of Rome in alternate sentences, writing of the early days, that one is speaking of the same thing - it is normative to consider them to be the same - it is certainly the RC claim.

It is the Roman Catholic church that states that it was a rebellious Ithacius who ordained the man, not me. but this is unimportant - what is important is that he was a Christian bishop of the Roman church, not what you said he was.

The Cathars were Manichean Christians - they held the concept of two Gods, of humans being fragments of angels of light trapped in matter ... all the trappings of Manichaen beliefs - what they did was to accept certain Christian and Judaic books that they believed upheld their beliefs and discarded others. Priscillian, it would appear, held the same or similar beliefs. I mean Manichaen, of course, as everyone does, not in the sense of being followers of Mani but of incorporating those beliefs into Christian theology.

I agree with you about Augustine, not a nice man at all - and he probably did convert when he realised the cause was lost and he would be executed if he carried on without joining the 'winners', though we do not know this - many people have suddenly converted to Christianity haven't they, from murderers, to Muslims, to Manichaeans.
Sure, he abandoned that woman, and his child, and they are never mentioned again - but we musn't be too retrodictive, the times were as they were and he wasn't married to her (though from this 2011 viewpoint he seems a scoundrel to me too). He was also the first Christian to put into writing the reasons why it was the right thing to do to burn heretics - so - no, not a nice man at all.

When I wrote about interesting books or two you will find I was writing generally about academics and the academic process not about you - please read that sentence again, it may help you to keep your blood pressure down.

Carbon dating for the relics? But Tracy, I don't care who is physically in Santiago, it is of no interest to me.

Love of truth? ahhh .. now there is a thread that could be interesting - but we must beware of idées fixes, don't you think? :wink:

all is well, Tracy, all is well. :lol:
 
Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

(This thread is reminding me of the Good Old Days when Gareth and I sparred until Gareth came around to admitting I had some VERY good points. Ah, but that was after he returned from the Vatican!)

My comments embedded. It's easier that way and I REALLY do have a lot more things to do...

Oh dear, what an angry person you are Tracy. Angry? No! I’m one of the happiest people I know. Read my blog and you'll see that. No, I’m having fun! Gautama said that "you aren't punished for your anger, you are punished by your anger" so I will leave your situation with you. Mr. Buddha and are getting along just fine without your quote, thanks all the same.

It is fairly obvious, Tracy, that when one mentions Catholicism and the church in/of Rome in alternate sentences, writing of the early days, that one is speaking of the same thing - it is normative to consider them to be the same - it is certainly the RC claim.
Yes, it is certainly the RC claim and THAT makes it indubitably true. After all, the Pope is infallible…

It is the Roman Catholic church that states that it was a rebellious Ithacius who ordained the man, not me. but this is unimportant - what is important is that he was a Christian bishop of the Roman church, not what you said he was. I think you will find that is NOT the case, and if that is what the RC churcjh claims then THEY are wrong. Ithacius was a thug as was his crony Hydatius who threw Instantius and Sylvianus bodily out of his church in Merida. It was they who ordained Priscillian. You know, you really ought to read Henry Chawick. Actually, you really ought to read Pilgrimage to Heresy!

The Cathars were Manichean Christians - they held the concept of two Gods, of humans being fragments of angels of light trapped in matter ... all the trappings of Manichaen beliefs - what they did was to accept certain Christian and Judaic books that they believed upheld their beliefs and discarded others. Priscillian, it would appear, held the same or similar beliefs. I mean Manichaen, of course, as everyone (not me! Oh… you mean the official RC version as in see above…) does, not in the sense of being followers of Mani but of incorporating those beliefs into Christian theology. That is to say they were Dualists. One syllogism coming up:

The Cathars were Dualists,
The Manichaeans were Dualists,
Therefore the Cathars were Manichaeans.


Aristotle is turning in his grave!
End Tracy

I agree with you about Augustine, not a nice man at all - and he probably did convert when he realised the cause was lost and he would be executed if he carried on without joining the 'winners', though we do not know this - many people have suddenly converted to Christianity haven't they, from murderers, to Muslims, to Manichaeans.

Sure, he abandoned that woman, and his child, and they are never mentioned again - but we musn't be too retrodictive, the times were as they were and he wasn't married to her (though from this 2011 viewpoint he seems a scoundrel to me too). He was also the first Christian to put into writing the reasons why it was the right thing to do to burn heretics - so - no, not a nice man at all.

Followers of this thread please do read the last sentence again. And this is one of the most revered Catholic saints… He also cursed humankind with Original Sin too. Certainly Jesus never said a word about it. True, not a part of Tracy’s “fiction”.

When I wrote about interesting books or two you will find I was writing generally about academics and the academic process not about you - please read that sentence again, it may help you to keep your blood pressure down. 120/80 Always has been. But you might want to check your own…

Carbon dating for the relics? But Tracy, I don't care who is physically in Santiago, it is of no interest to me. I would like to say the same, and in some spiritual ways I do agree. As MP said: St. James is and always has been in his cathedral. That’s the way it should be. What I DO disagree with is this constant determination to be blind to the evidence. i.e. There is none…

Love of truth? ahhh .. now there is a thread that could be interesting - but we must beware of idées fixes, don't you think?

Yes, both of us perhaps…


all is well, Tracy, all is well.

Yes, but all is better now that I have put in my last two cents! Have fun, Bro Dave. I’m off of here for a day or two so you boys behave yourselves or Matron’ll know…
 
Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

If anyone out there is as interested as I am about this discussion I recommend that they get hold of Henry Chadwick's book.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listin ... ition=used
Chadwick is obviously very sympathetic to Priscillian (to the Bishop I mean - not to our Tracey!)
He dedicates his book to his eldest daughter "Priscillae filiae dilectissimae". I think that means
"Priscilla, beloved daughter"!
He is definite that Priscillian was ordained Bishop by Instantius and Salvianus. Ithacius was implacably opposed to Priscillian from the beginning and was certainly not a party to his consecration.
I would be more interested in the possibility that Priscillian's followers somehow got hold of his remains and took them back to Galicia. It would have been more likely surely, that Priscillian, as an enemy of both church and state, would have been buried in an unmarked grave. (Or his body burnt, thus preventing it being used as a rallying point). Certainly the Priscillian movement was very strong in Galicia until about 555 A.D. when the Sueves were converted from Arianism to Catholicism.
Whose is the body?
In the absence of any new documentary evidence we are left with Carbon Dating!!!
Back to Henry Chadwick - I am nearly halfway through!
blessings
Terry
 
The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
What about Mondoñedo?

TerryB said:
If anyone out there is as interested as I am about this discussion I recommend that they get hold of Henry Chadwick's book.
Found a few more on http://www.uvm.edu/~bsaylor/rome/clas196.html :
- On Priscillian and his followers: H. Chadwick, "Priscillian of Avila. Occult and Charisma in the Ancient Church," in Studia Patristica, XV (1984) 3-12. BR41 .I57
- Harry O. Maier, "Religious Dissent, Heresy and Households in Late Antiquity," VChr 49 (1995) 49-63
- Eszter Spät. "The 'Commonitorium' of Orosius on the Teachings of the Priscillianists," AAntHung 38 (1998) 357-379 [69-03175
- Andrew S. Jacobs, "The Disorder of Books: Priscillian's Canonical Defense of Apocrypha," HThR 93 (2000) 135-159
- Bibliography on Theodosius and his successors > http://www.uvm.edu/~bsaylor/rome/theodosius.html

What about Mondoñedo? See on this forum:

- chtonian aspects of the pilgrimage to Cabo Fisterra
... the vast majority of us." It's not important for the most relevant story of Saint James whether he or Priscillianus is buried in Santiago or Mondoñedo. To me it is relevant that they are both (strengthening the argument) representing aspects of death which seems to be the core of the matter. ...

- ad Sedem Britonorum
Was there not a link from Mondoñedo > Bretoña > Britain > William the Conquerer > Normandy? ‘Bretoña, localidad situada a apenas treinta kilómetros de la actual iglesia de Mondoñedo.’ I Googled a while on "ad Sedem Britonorum": ...

- The Santiago Enigma
... as for another martyr Priscillian, who was beheaded at Trier (Trèves, in Germany) in 385. Does it matter whose bones are buried in Santiago or Mondoñedo? Is it not more important that they shared (and this we can agree on) the aspects of the end of our mortal lives, of going to where our then ...

- Re: Pilgrimage to Heresy: Don't Believe Everything They Tell You
... Volume III idem A few decades ago I was in Trier (Germany) where according to legend Priscillian’s last procession left for Mondoñedo (or was it Santiago?). I had read * Chadwick, Fletcher and King so in the largest downtown University bookshop I waited patiently till the ...

For reasons unknown to me I can’t open these posts anymore. Have they gone?
Geerτ
 
Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

I'm right about my facts, Br. David; but it is no sweet victory, I can assure you.
I hope we can continue in the spirit of uncovering truths. I always remember a philosophy professor asking: "If God had the answers in one hand, and the questions in the other, which one would you choose?" Out of a class of 12 or so, I was the only one who answered: "The questions!"
Best regards,Tracy
 
Train for your next Camino on California's Santa Catalina Island March 16-19
Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Priscillian, it may help if you were not so sarcastic in your responses to Br. David. Being one who uses sarcasm far too often, I understand your use of it, but on forums it does not work well; it is too grating and offensive.

Also, it is obvious that you have a problem with the Catholic Church. Being a non-Catholic I can understand your position, but the barbs you use against it are not helpful here. If you are interested in good discussion it would be best to drop the caustic remarks. It will be easier for others to better understand your position and not cause bad feelings. I can also say that it does not motivate me to read your book given the negative feelings I receive when reading your posts. I am looking for neutral scholarship, not an emotional venting against a perceived evil empire. Does that make sense to you?
 
Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Yes Tracy, I'm sure you're right :wink:

Except that there has been no 'victory' as you put it. I was pm'd by someone who felt that other members might not be enjoying the debate so I chose to disengage - that is all. :wink:
 
Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

I am suitably chastened and I apologise if I have caused offense to any of you. In my own defense I can only say my "sarcasm" was a form of self-defense (though not scholarly, I'll admit that :oops: ); that this interchange between Br.David and I has taken me back to my undergraduate days as a philosophy student when women were not expected to speak up at Society meetings: if they did, they were treated patronisingly and I have felt that this has come through here, although I am sure not intentionally. Note, "Matron" (an interesting archetype when you thiunk about it) is the only feminine voice* here amongst the "boys". I cannot react in any other way to cutting "put downs" accompanied by innocent smileys. (One of which was removed at my request). Sorry.
As for the Catholic Church, I like to think I am pretty liberal. I don't like to see thousands of years of oppression covered up in a veil of dogma and sanctity; that much I will admit too. But I have met individual priests who do WONDERFUL work and from that point of view I have the utmost respect. I have my own views about the content of the Catholic mass, but that doesn't stop me from attending, nor from singing many with my choir! I shall endeavor to transfer that respect back into this forum.
Tracy

Edited: 2 I see that Br. David has now added to his last comment through an edit. I am afraid it does not make it any less patronising. The facts are as they stand, as TerryB has kindly added above. I, at least, have made my apologies...

Edited:1
*Sorry, my error. I see that Grilly and Lydia were here earlier on; but I seem to be the token woman lately...
 
Ideal pocket guides for during & after your Camino. Each weighs only 1.4 oz (40g)!
Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Thank you. As for sarcastic comments -
"Observe which side resorts to the most vociferous name-calling and you are likely to have identified the side with the weaker argument and they know it."
Charles R. Anderson

Tracy - if you wish to continue the debate with me then please feel free to pm me - but please, no ranting. :|

All is well.

so, back to the thread ... perhaps the Madhi is buried there?
 
Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

With regard to the preaching of the Gospel in Spain by St. James the greater, several difficulties have been raised:
St. James suffered martyrdom A.D. 44 (Acts 12:2), and, according to the tradition of the early Church, he had not yet left Jerusalem at this time (cf. Clement of Alexandria, Stromata VI; Apollonius, quoted by Eusebius, Church History VI.18).
St. Paul in his Epistle to the Romans (A.D. 58) expressed the intention to visit Spain (Romans 15:24) just after he had mentioned (15:20) that he did not "build upon another man's foundation."
The argument ex silentio: although the tradition that James founded an Apostolic see in Spain was current in the year 700, no certain mention of such tradition is to be found in the genuine writings of early writers nor in the early councils; the first certain mention we find in the ninth century, in Notker, a monk of St. Gall (Martyrol., 25 July), Walafried Strabo (Poema de XII Apost.), and others.
The tradition was not unanimously admitted afterwards, while numerous scholars reject it. The Bollandists however defended it (see Acta Sanctorum, July, VI and VII, where other sources are given).
The authenticity of the sacred relic of Compostela has been questioned and is still doubted. Even if St. James the Greater did not preach the Christian religion in Spain, his body may have been brought to Compostela, and this was already the opinion of Notker. According to another tradition, the relics of the Apostle are kept in the church of St-Saturnin at Toulouse (France), but it is not improbable that such sacred relics should have been divided between two churches. A strong argument in favour of the authenticity of the sacred relics of Compostela is the Bull of Leo XIII, "Omnipotens Deus," of 1 November, 1884.
Catholic Encyclopedia
While faith can raise the possibility of St. James' body being in Santiago to 100%, facts lower it pretty close to zero, at least until Leo XIII in 1884!
 
Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

As a blunt, down to earth Yorkshireman, I do like to know what is what! So, I have done some digging around as well as reading through the book by Henry Chadwick, recognised as an authority on early church history. As far as possible I have verified these 'facts' from his primary sources available on the web (I do not have a Reader's Card for the Bodliean Library!) and I believe they are a reasonable statement of what we know about the historical Priscillian. I have put fuller details, quotes from primary sources and futher reading on the web at:- http://www.ruralmatters.org.uk/camino_d ... llian.html .
This web page will be added to as, and when, I have the opportunity.

Possibly a native of Galicia. (Noted in 'Legio VII Gemina' by A. Quintana Prieto.446 n. 90)

His teachings were condemned at the Council of Saragossa in 380 A.D. He was not named in the published Canons of the Council nor was he excommunicated. However 'the minutes of the Council would have included attacks on named individuals, including . . . Priscillian.' (Chadwick)

In 381 the see of Avila fell vacant. The bishops Instantius and Salvianus went there and achieved the election and consecration of Priscillian. No other bishop is named as being present which may have cast doubts on the 'consecration' itself.

By early 382 a number of charges against "pseudo-bishops and Manichees" were made in a report to Ambrose of Milan by Hydatius of Bishop Mérida and Ithacius Bishop of Ossonuba. Priscillian, Instantius, Salvianus and a number of followers visited Rome and Milan. They were denied audience by both pope Damasus in Rome and Bishop Ambrose in Milan.

In 383A.D. the emperor Gratian was defeated by Maximus and murdered . The new emperor was approached by the Bishop Ithacius who presented grave criminal charges against the Priscillianists.
Priscillian was convinced that there would be no justice for him and his followers at the synod in Burdigala (Bordeaux) and went to appeal to the emperor Maximus in Trier.

In the secular court in Trier the charges brought by Ithacius were that Priscillian held a heretical doctrine of the Trinity, studied heretical apocrypha, practiced magic and taught the radical dualism of the Manichees.

"Under judicial examination
(torture!) Priscillian confessed to his interest in magical studies, to having held nocturnal gatherings of (loose) women, and to having prayed naked" (Chadwick). He was found guilty of sorcery and executed along with two other clergy, a wealthy widow Euchrotia and Latronianus a Christian poet.

The trial at Trier was condemned by Martin of Tours, Ambrose of Milan and pope Siricius.

In 388 Maximus fell to the emperor Theodosius and was declared to be 'a wicked usurper'.
"The fall of Maximus spelt a reversal of policy which was golden news for the Spanish Priscillianists. Ithacius was canonically deposed from his see. Hydatius of Mérida resigned and both went into exile." (Chadwick)

In Galicia Priscillian was celebrated as a martyr, his body recovered from Trier and taken back to Spain for burial. His shrine seems to have been somewhere in Galicia, rather than at his own church in Avila. Oaths were solemnly sworn at his shrine and Priscillianism became the major 'creed' of the Galician church.

In 400 A.D the Council of Toledo demanded that the Priscillianist bishops swore an oath condemning 'everything that Priscillian wrote contrary to the catholic faith'. Priscillianist bishops had the choice of renouncing their heretical beliefs or deposition from their sees. Four of the bishops (not necessarily all from Galicia) present at Toledo refused to recant. They stated simply, that they would lose the support of all their clergy and their people if they did so.
The question remains "Where was the shrine?"

Blessings
Terry
 
Join the Camino cleanup. Logroño to Burgos May 2025 & Astorga to OCebreiro in June
Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Where was the shrine indeed. That IS the question! It is hard for us to imagine but Priscillian's message in the late 4th century through to the mid seventh, simply DOMINATED the north of Spain, into the south of France, even into the north of Italy. I hear you all saying: "So why have I never heard of him?"
Precisely. My reaction too, back in 1999. And exactly why I knew - once I had read Chadwick - that SOMEBODY had to tell his tale. That somebody has turned out to be me (in English; he is far from unknown in Spain).
Fast forward to the early 9th century. Priscillianism is assumed to be dead. Or did it go underground? (No pun intended) Did it remain in the Pyrennees where it morphed - though only slightly - into Catharism? Were the Bonshommes in fact Priscillianists? Near Montsegur there is a wood named Fôret Priscilien... (Next book being researched now: The Dove and the Yellow Cross)
A "shepherd", or "hermit", hears voices singing, he sees lights, not just once either. When he approaches, there are no traces, but there is some sort of building, hidden. He contacts someone who contacts his bishop Theodomir in Iria Flavia. Theodomir has heard Beatus of Liebana has said that St. James not only preached in Spain but must have been buried here somewhere. A few logical links are jumped (Theodemir remember believes Priscillianism to be dead for two centuries). He contacts King Alfonso the Wise. Alfonso has problems. His men are disheartened. Battles are being lost against the Moors who are pushing and pushing the boundaries of his kingdom. A miracle! St. James has been found...
A trickle of pilgrims come out of curiousity. A small wattle and daub church is built. Nothing fancy. A few monks are also housed close by. By the next Alfonso the Moorish thing is getting really serious. A bigger church is consecrated with great ceremony. The word goes out: We have the remains of the Apostle James! Almanzor burns the whole thing to the ground but it is quickly rebuilt.
Then along comes Diego Gelmirez. Bishop Gelmirez recognises that Compostela has been a backwater not capitalising on its potential. Sure, a few pilgrims come but there could be more, far more. He writes to the abbot of Cluny to find out how one goes about running a cathedral with apostolic status. He badgers the pope to make him an archbishop and although it takes 22 years, he finally succeeds. He commissions a book (The Historia Compostelana) to tell of his city, his saint, and most of all, himself. He goes to Braga and robs them of their own saints (True! I love DG to bits!). He commissions another book. He writes an introduction f which he accredits to Pope Calixtinus (who actually was dead by then). In the book he has the writer tell of the miracles of St. James, of the rigours of the pilgrimage... That book, of course, is the (now missing) Codex Calixtinus: The Liber Santo Jacobi.
Compostela is on the map. So much so that the new pope begins to get worried: is this archbishop trying to create his own "papacy" at the end of the word? He was indeed...
And that folks is the "Story so far": Pilgrimage to Heresy and St. James' Rooster!
Whose tomb??? Odd that almost all of the graves around it are of the 4th century (Priscillian's time) and the ones from the first century appear to be pagan, to Jupiter???
Don't you think?
Tracy Saunders

P.S. Pilgrim'sPlaza has done a HERO'S job of research on his blog. See his post just before this one. Some really great references and quotes on Priscillian and Priscillianism. Do check them out if you really want to know about Priscillian. :D
http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.com
http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.blogspot.com
 
Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

To quote the blog of 'Pilgrims'Plaza'

Therefore S. James must have another twin: and was he not [AND MONO GRAPHS 346 -One goes to the underworld - Evidence from Iconography - WAY OF S.JAMES] already, in Canonical Scripture, the Brother of the Lord? The mortal twin, the chthonian power, is S. James: the divine, in heaven, is Jesus: but on the baldachin at Compostella S. James ruled.
Sorry I cannot accept that!
In Canonical Scripture, St. James, brother of the Lord, writer of the Epistle was not the St. James of Compostela!!! St James the Just, brother of Jesus was the leader of the early congregation in Jerusalem and was certainly alive when the apostle Paul went there to meet with James, Cephas and John c. AD 49 (Galatians chapter 2 and Acts 15). James the brother of John, son of Zebedee - our James, was beheaded by Herod c. AD 44.
James and John, sons of Zebedee, called by Jesus 'Sons of Thunder'; may have been twins but it is not recorded - Thomas Didymus was a twin and called as such!)
I am looking for facts about Priscillian and the early christian church. And although folklore about 'heavenly and earthly twins' may be interesting, I fail to see how it sheds any light on Priscillian and his teaching, as in the Wurzburg tractates, the treatise on the Trinity and the prologues to the four Gospels.

Blessings
Terry
 
A selection of Camino Jewellery
Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Sorry, Pilgrim'sPlaza but I do have to agree with Terry on this one. "Our" St. James was the brother of John, and John is almost always depicted as being considerably younger (maybe someone can find me a reference from scripture as to whether this was the case?). James "the brother of Jesus" is a different person altogether. The "twin" stories have come up occasionally on this Forum before I believe. I've just finished reading the rather weak book by Phillip Pullman entitled The Good Man Jesus and the Scoundrel Christ in which Pullman makes Jesus a twin, but as he never tries to explain why he decided to do this it adds nothing to our knowledge. IT's a very strange book all around, or maybe I missed the point. Perhaps he should stick with children's fantasy and leave adult fantasy alone!
Thomas is often called Dydimus which means "Twin", but we learn no more about his family either.
A very good book on this subject is Robert Eisenman's James the Brother of Jesus.
Best Wishes,
Tracy
http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.com
http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.blogspot.com
 
why a dual twin-twin signal?

Priscillian said:
Thomas is often called Dydimus which means "Twin"
Also an interesting point, Tracy. Doesn't Thomas also means 'twin' or something that (or someone who?) has been cut, split or divided (like in vasectomy)? So why the dual signal twin-twin?
It has struck me often that these names must have been titles rather than first or last names, like in King David, Father Abraham, Priest Cohen, @cetera. I can't argue with you or Terry about facts or fiction; I'm just a blunt Dutch layman who is very eager to learn it all.
The arguements mentioned come from professor Georgiana Goddard King in her beautifully written masterpiece The Way of Saint James [full-txt-on-line]. What a pity she's not with us to answer all your questions and remarks! Luckely it has been reviewed a lot a few years ago on this wonderful Forum so there's a lot in store for new pilgrims. [I'll do some more digging.]
 
Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

I'm just a blunt Dutch layman who is very eager to learn it all. Yeah, and I'm the Queen of Sheeba.
X
 
Ideal sleeping bag liner whether we want to add a thermal plus to our bag, or if we want to use it alone to sleep in shelters or hostels. Thanks to its mummy shape, it adapts perfectly to our body.

€46,-
Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

From Tracey - . . . . . . John is almost always depicted as being considerably younger (maybe someone can find me a reference from scripture as to whether this was the case?)
There is no direct reference in the Canonical N.T. to John being the younger of the brothers. It is only in St. Luke's Gospel that John is named before his brother James. In the other three Gospels he comes after James. Probably by the time Luke was writing the names of Peter and John were linked together. Before that, John was named after James as he was the younger of the two brothers. They are usually accepted as the sons of Salome, who was sister of Mary the mother of Jesus. James and John = cousins of Jesus Christ.

PilgrimsPlaza asked - . . . . Doesn't Thomas also means 'twin' or something that (or someone who?) has been cut, split or divided (like in vasectomy)? So why the dual signal twin-twin?
Thomas does indeed mean 'twin' in Aramaic. The name Thomas is used on its own in the three Synoptic Gospels. St. John's Gospel uses "Thomas Didymus" usually translated as "Thomas, also called the twin". Didymus is Greek for "twin", so St. John uses both the Aramaic and Greek versions. Possibly writing in Greek for those who did not understand Aramaic.

We have debated the possibility of Radio Carbon dating. Has there been any mention of DNA / genetic testing? If it were possible it would surely prove whether or not the relics in Compostela are of Jewish descent.
Out of interest have there been any studies in Spain similar to those undertaken by the Univerity of Oxford in the U.K.?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_hi ... tish_Isles

The following quote is from a comment on "Saxons, Vikings and Celts. The Genetic Roots of Britain and Ireland" by Bryan Sykes.
Probably the most startling result of his work, and that of other geneticists as well, is that 'lost' peoples such as the Picts of Scotland or Celts generally in England did not vanish genetically even if they did culturally. They live on in all of us of British descent. Other points of interest include the apparent confirmation that legends of Celtic migration from the Middle East through Iberia to the British Isles are based upon fact, that there are close genetic connection between the Picts and the British Celts

Something like this would certainly give some background to the Celtic influence in Galicia!

By the way, the studies make me of Celtic descent with some Viking genes from male ancestors!
I always knew that I was a mixed up Yorkshireman. At least I am well balanced, I have a chip on both shoulders :lol:

Blessings
Terry
 
Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Could it be that the twin relations we are discussing here have a deeper significance than sharing a short blood line?

Speculation again I am afraid!
I tried 'Jesus Christ + twin' in Google and immediately got into conspiracy theories about Constantine, the Roman Catholic Church and the Synod of Nicea :shock:
The four Canonical Gospels as we have them were accepted by the church along with the 13 epistles of St. Paul by c. 130 - Nicaea was A.D. 325. As soon as I see conspiracy mentioned, I move on elsewhere. And, Yes! I have read The Da Vinci Code which has been rubbished by any number of eminent historians for its inaccuracies. While we are there, worship on 'The Lord's Day', the first day of the week was already happening before A.D. 65 (the death of St. Paul) see Acts chapter 20 and verse 7 along with I Corinthians chapter 16 and verse 2. Note that the Latin languages(including Spanish) do not know a 'Day of the Sun'. The day is Domingo, from Dominica = of the Lord.
What I do like are primary sources for material dating back to the events themselves.(Or as close as possible).
It will be difficult now to find an ancient first-hand version of the folk stories of Galicia. I have a feeling - I am speculating this time- that the countryfolk in North-west Spain knew very well where Priscillian was buried. Just as I was told the stories of the Battle of Stamford Bridge and its aftermath, which took place about 5 miles from where I was born. This is where some of King's material in 'The Way of St. James' is important. She was hearing local history, before radio and television meant that we all knew the same thing! We do need to check out the facts as far as is possible, before we build a structure on shaky foundations!

blessings
Terry
 
A selection of Camino Jewellery
twins, cousins, brothers... soul-mates?

TerryB said:
Speculation again I am afraid!
Not speculating; only asking a question... After a good night's sleep and thinking about posting this, your sincerity convinced me that it's OK so here it is:

From: The Way of Saint James, by Professor Georgiana Goddard King, 1920:
http://www.archive.org/stream/wayofsain ... 1/mode/2up
Volume 3: BOOK FOUR: HOMEWARD: chapters I – III 371-710
chapter VII THE ASIAN GOD 278
The Mortal Twin 334-346

[334] "The Mortal Twin.

[Meat for my black cock
And meat for my red . . .
--George Peele.]

At this point it becomes necessary to consider those apocryphal Acts of the Apostles which brought Pricillian to martyrdom, 1 and with them, the general confusion of mind, in the early centuries of the church, about the name and character of certain of the Apostles. [Romances of the Apostles] There was a time when these pious romances supplied reading to the devout. S. Toribio, whom we have met on the Pass of Rabanal, as he came back from the Holy Land with relics some time before 440, 2 was very active against the Priscillianists and denounced them as reading the Acts of S. Thomas, S. Andrew, and S. John, and with these the Memorials of Apostles, which are not otherwise known. Yet S. Silva of Aquitaine, on her journey sixty years before, 3 had read the Acts of S. Thomas at Edessa, and elsewhere those of S. Tecla, as a matter of course and with edification, [335] precisely like those sentimental travellers who read Le Jardin de Berenice at Aigues Mortes and the Chanson de Roland at Roncevaux.

About certain of the twelve Apostles, and disciples, equally, the situation is not very clear: even the lists in the canonical Gospels do not agree. Some, like SS. Peter and Paul, John and Barnabas, are plain, their names, their burial places: but again, as Michael the Syrian says 4 [A Jacobite Bishop] rather dolefully, there are only three names for six Apostles, which is hard. Some of them are brothers, some of them are commemorated in couples. James was the brother of the Lord, but which James?

"Thy Mother and Thy brethren are without'' -- which are brethren? The genealogy which the Golden Legend offers, it will be remembered, is this: 5
(i) Anna married (a) Joachim, (b) Cleophas, (c) Salomas, and had three daughters all called Mary: (2) Mary Virgin married Joseph and Jesus was her son:
(3) Mary Cleophas married Alphaeus and her children were James Minor, Simon, Jude called [336] Thaddaeus (called also Addai, be it noted), and Joseph Justus [James called Justus: Compostellan Breviary] called Barsabas (whom I know only as a name) :
(4) Mary Salome married Zebedee and her children were James and John called the Sons of Thunder, Boanerges. But the situation was not so clear in earlier centuries nor in the east. Michael the Syrian (1166-1199) says, 6 for instance, that James Zebedee was persecuted at Jerusalem and martyred by a fuller's mallet: with James Alphaeus he brackets Simon the Canaanite called Zelotes and also Nathaniel, who preached in Syria at Aleppo and Mabog (Bombyce, which is Hierapolis) and was martyred at Cyrrhus where his church is. But Theodosius in his treatise On the Topography of the Holy Land 7 says that "Cosmas and Damian lie there at Cyrrhus, not the famous physicians however." The point is apparently that twins lie there and Simon is a twin.

The next Apostle whom Michael the Syrian names is that Thaddaeus whose surname was Lebbaeus, who is Jude the son of James. He was sawn asunder at [337] Berenice, which is Berytus, says Chabot; now Berytus, or Beyrut is the sea-port of Heliopolis. After the list of Apostles he proceeds with the seventy disciples, of whom the first is Addai that preached in Edessa and baptized King Abgar, died and was buried there. Fifteenth comes Jude the brother of James; twenty-sixth Simon the son of Cleophas; twenty-eighth James [… qui el Judas] who was killed with his brother; Mark and Luke figure as forty-third and forty-fourth; fiftieth, John who was thrown to beasts in the theatre of Baalbek! The son of Narses king of Persia who was born during a flight and was brought up in Membig which is Hierapolis, was sent to Edessa on an errand and saw the church built by Addai. 8 From this sample the confusion may be judged.
In Jerusalem the two Apostles called James were for a long time confounded. Theodosius (c. 530) who makes Cleophas one of the pilgrims of Emmaus, says 9:

S. James whom the Lord ordained bishop with his own hand, after the Lord's [338] ascension was cast down from the pinnacle of the Temple and suffered [S. James in Jerusalem] no hurt, but a fuller slew him with a pole on which he used to carry his things and he was buried on Mount Olivet. S. James, S. Zacharias, and S. Simeon were buried in one tomb which S. James had built, he buried the others there and left directions that he should also be laid therein.

Two things are notable here: one that the the fuller's mallet belongs to S. James as [The Mallet God] the instrument of his martyrdom, but it was already the axe of Adad; and the other that the sepulchre with three bodies found at Santiago in the ninth century, existed at Jerusalem in the sixth.
Antoninus Martyr, who was such another as Aymery Picaud, writing about 560-570, [A good companion] mentions the great earthquake at Berytus in which, the Bishop told him, 30,000 persons perished there; this will be what shook down the sanctuary at Heliopolis. He testifies: "On the Mount of Olives rests James the Son of Zebedee, and Cleophas and many bodies of saints."10
[339] And he is trustworthy as Aymery, and like him took his notes on the spot.
John of Wurtzburg (1160-1170) saw the church of S. James in the hands of [" . . . A Gallegan without a head ..."] Armenians, as it is still presumably: "He was beheaded by Herod and his body was placed by his disciples on board a ship at Joppa and carried to Galicia but his head remained in Palestine and is still shown to pilgrims" 11 . . . . An anonymous pilgrim who was in Jerusalem before 1187 saw "the Lord's temple where He was presented and whence He cast out those who bought and sold and from whence James the Lord's brother was cast down." 12 The Citez de Jherusalem, composed after that date, says that there is the church of S. James of Galicia who was the brother of S. John the Evangelist; that at Joppa under a castle in the church of S. Peter is found the cloak of S. James of Galicia on which he crossed the sea; that on a mountain above Acre stands the church of SS. James and John [S. James the Less] where they were born. 13 The buen seynt de Galise is fairly well-defined by the end of the twelfth century.

[340] Burchard of Mount Sion went thither in 1232, and saw the place where S. James was beheaded by Herod Agrippa. 14 But thereafter he is almost forgotten in the east: and James the Less usurps his place. Marino Sanuto (1321) who borrows freely from Burchard, has not a word to tell of the Son of Zebedee, but he relates that near the Virgin's Tomb [--enclosed, but open to the sky--] is the Sepulchre of James the Less, for the Christian buried him here after the Jews had cast him down from the Temple; and elsewhere, that in the Chamber of the Last Supper, S. Matthias was elected, the Holy Ghost descended, the seven deacons were chosen and S. James the Less was ordained Bishop of Jerusalem. 15 Leopold von Suchem, thirty years later, thought that James Minor, the Lord's brother, was martyred by the Jews casting him down from the Temple. 16 After this it seems no more than compensation, if Luke of Tuy makes S. James Major the protomartyr.
His confused account of the Apostles represents the state of Spanish knowledge in the thirteenth century, which was no [341] better than the Syrian. It amounts about to this:

Trajan [he says] built the bridge of Alcantara and allowed the Christians [S. Luke of Tuy] to be persecuted, and Simon Cleophas Bishop of Jerusalem was crucified. S. John died in Ephesus at ninety-nine, when Galen of Pergamo the great doctor flourished. [Then he starts a new paragraph.]
Peter and Paul are buried at Rome; Andrew at Patras, a city of Achaia; James Zebedee in a marble ark and then carried to the farthest province of Spain, Galicia; John at Ephesus, Philip and his daughters at Hierapolis of Asia; Thomas at Calamia a city of India; Matthew in the Parthian mountains; Martial, a disciple of the Apostles, at Limoges; Luke in Bithynia and Mark at Alexandria; James Alphaeus beside the temple at Jerusalem; Thaddaeus, that is Jude, in Beyrout of the Edessenes. Simon Cleophas who is Jude (qui et Judas) bishop after James, was crucified [But compare Abn-Edhari, page 203] at the age of a hundred and twenty Edharif years in Jerusalem and buried there; Titus in Crete; Crescens the eunuch of [342] Candace the queen of Arabia Felix, in Gaul. 17

It is worth noting, perhaps, as an instance of how these confusions come, that the Jerusalem pilgrims went to see the place where Philip baptized the eunuch; now Mgr. Duchesne says 18 that the Latin texts of the Apostolic Catalogues give Macedonia to S. Matthew, Gaul to S. Philip, and Spain to S. James, a few sending S. Matthew to Ethiopia. Philip having been placed in Gaul and then withdrawn, the eunuch becomes his substitute. Two more notes of Mgr. Duchesne's must be remembered: the first, that Mozarabic calendars place the Feast of Santiago [A vegetation spirit] on May-Day 19 ; now Tamayo de Salazar extracts from the Chronicle of Julian Perez the Arch-priest of S. Justa, a statement that S. James the Less was commissioned by S. Peter, acting under orders from the Blessed Virgin, to attend to the interests of the Church and especially of Spain, and his feast fixed for May i. The other is, that he accepts as authentic the Hymn [343] attributed to King Mauregato (783-788) which declares Jacobus Hispaniam: and [--in what sense ?] adds that there seems to be no distinction between the two SS. James. 20
In the Apocryphal Acts of Andrew and Matthias in the City of the Man-Eaters, James and Simon are called the brothers of Jesus the son of Joseph the carpenter. 21
The Acts of Thaddaeus relate how Thaddaeus was a native of Edessa, and after Christ had sent his likeness to King Abgar by Ananias the courier, then, after the Passion and the Resurrection and Ascension, Thaddaeus went to Abgar and instructed and baptized him, as S. Thomas did in the Acts which S. Silva of Aquitaine read there, and ultimately died and was buried at Berytus, a city of Phoenicia by the sea. 22

Taking for a moment East and West together, the case may be stated about as follows:

Thomas was a twin, Didymus; but [--as Rendel Harris shows--] Thomas = Jude, and also Thomas = Thaddaeus (Addai)
Simon + Jude are a pair [344]
James is brother of the Lord; but there are two Jameses
James Major = James Minor and Philip + James are a pair
These all are twins and all are interchangeable.
Philip = Adad at Hierapolis, but
Philip + James Minor = James Major
.*. James Major = Adad, especially at Heliopolis.

It can be further proved. In the Acts of Philip, S. Philip is called the Son of [S. Philip surrogate of S, James] Thunder; 23 he is subject to fits of rage like SS. James and John when they would have called down fire from heaven; 24 he directs the preparation of his mummy in wrappings that would bring it to the shape of the cult-image. 25 But he bears in other ways more likeness to Dionysus, he is accompanied by the leopard and the kid of the [Avatar of Dionysus,] goats, 26 and by wild women, 27 and where his blood falls a vine springs up. 28 Now the minor temple at Heliopolis, as we know today, was dedicated to Dionysus. His companion and sister is Mariamne, who is a disciple of S. James in other legends, [345] and who, by the way, is herself a twin! 29 Rendel Harris has expounded delightfully how S. Thomas is the twin of Christ, and looks just like him, so that Christ on coming into a room is taken for S. Thomas who has just gone out. 30 "And the Lord said to him, I am not Judas who also is Thomas; I am his brother." In the Acts of Philip, when S. Philip is in the rôle of S. James, Christ appears in the likeness [and twin Christ] of S. Philip. 31 Priscillian knew this twin of ol Christ's: "Ait Juda apostolus clamans ille didymus domini". 32 As one of the Sons of Thunder, of course S. James was a twin, and again we have to thank Rendel Harris for all the instances of the twin-child that is the Lightning's child: 33 S. John was the twin brother to S. James, but S. John was otherwise disposed of. He lived to be very old, his place was Ephesus: S. John in Ephesus, S. Peter in Rome, S. James in Compostella, was an idea familiar to the twelfth century in Galicia, and doubtless elsewhere and earlier: so the world was distributed, east and west and in Italy. Therefore S. James must have another twin: and was he not [346] already, in Canonical Scripture, the Brother of the Lord? The mortal twin, the chthonian power [One goes to the underworld], is S. James: the divine, in heaven, is Jesus: but on the baldachin at Compostella S. James ruled.
Eastern Spain was peculiarly liable to influences from the East, and Syrian saints abound at Vich, Tarrasa, and thereabouts, who are often brethren, like SS. Cosmo and Damian, SS. Abdon and Senen. But in Catalan painting [Evidence from Iconography] of the fourteenth and fifteenth century, the twins are enforced, the likeness between S. James Major and his Master Christ is as marked as in the Gloria of Maestro Mateo. In the Last Supper of Solsona S. James in hat and slavey n still looks like Christ; in the Serras' altar piece at S. Cugat the two SS. James are identical, except for attributes. In Borassa's retable of the Poor Clares at Vich, SS. Simon and Jude look precisely like the Veronica which they are presenting to King Abgar; so in the predella, only SS. Thomas and Matthias (= Matthew), so S. James Minor.

[347] The High God. (…)"

---------------------------------

PS: For the record, I'm not speculating or stating anything, just asking questions. I'm not an expert at all in these Elysian fields but a very curious layman (whatever Matron thinks - I also like questions better than answers). This text above is too complicated for me, so I hope some expert could summarize the core of the message for some of us. Again, I can't help feeling that twin and brother and cousin is used here like soul-mate is these days and that many names and titles represent facets of the same jewel in Georgiana's crown.

PPS: To my big surprise many books in the Notes below can be read full-text-on-line*:

NOTES King Volume III pp 484-486 referring to pp 334-346 (text above)
The Mortal Twin:
1 Babut, Priscillien et la Priscillianisme, p. 130. *10
2 España sagrada, XVI, 39; Babut, op. cit., p. 238. [485] *2 [picture below]
3 S. Silva of Aquitaine, pp. 35, 43: Palestine Pilgrims' Text Society. *1
4 Chabot, Chronique de Michel le Syrien, I, 149. *5
5 Caxton's Golden Legend, V, 97, Nativity of our Lady. *8
6 Chabot, op. cit., I, 148-149.
7 Palestine Pilgrims' Text Society, p. 19, §86.
8 Chabot, op. cit., p. 183.
9 Palestine Pilgrims' Text Society, p. 11. *1
10 Palestine Pilgrims' Text Society, pp. 2, 14.
11 Palestine Pilgrims' Text Society, p. 45.
12 Palestine Pilgrims' Text Society, p. 33.
13 Palestine Pilgrims' Text Society, pp. 5, 33, 43.
14 Palestine Pilgrims' Text Society, p. 78.
15 Palestine Pilgrims' Text Society, p. 42, 46.
16 Palestine Pilgrims' Text Society, p. 100.
17 Hispaniae Illustratae, IV, 34. *7
18 S. Jacques en Galice, pp. 151, 152. *9
19 Id. ibid., p. 166.
20 Id. ibid., p. 153; Dreves, Analecta Hymnica, XXVII, 187. *3
21 Walker, Apocryphal Gospels, Acts, and Revelations, p. 354. *4
22 Id. ibid., pp. 440-443.
23 Id. ibid., pp. 308, 320, 323.
24 Id. ibid., pp. 309, 323.
25 Id. ibid., p. 314.
26 Id. ibid., pp. 314, 328, 329.
27 Id. ibid., p. 305.
28 Id. ibid., p. 315.
29 Id. ibid., pp. 301, 303. [486]
30 Id. ibid., p. 394.
31 Id. ibid., p. 316.
32 Schepss, Corpus Scrip. Eccles. Lat., XVIII, 44. *6
33 Boanerges, passim.
The High God:


* Read full-text-on-line:
*1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_ ... xt_Society -
*2 http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espa%C3%B1a_Sagrada
*3 http://www.archive.org/details/analecta ... 18drevuoft - Analecta Hymnica Medii Aevi (1894) - Author: Dreves, Guido Maria, 1854-1909 -
*4 http://www.archive.org/details/apocryph ... 00walkgoog - Apocryphal Gospels, Acts, and Revelations (1870) Author: Alexander Walker -
*5 http://www.archive.org/details/Chroniqu ... ranslation - Chronique de Michel le Syrien, t. 1 (translation) - Author: Michael the Syrian; Michel le Syrien; J.-B.Chabot -
*6 http://www.archive.org/details/corpussc ... 28wissgoog - Corpus scriptorum ecclesiasticorum Latinorum (1866) Author: Kaiserl. Akademie der Wissenschaften in Wien; Akademie der Wissenschaften in Wien; Österreichische Akademie der Wissenschaften -
*7 http://www.archive.org/details/damianigoesopusc00gi - Damiani a Goes ... Opuscula quae in Hispania illustrata continentur (1791) Author: Góis, Damião de, 1502-1574 -
*8 http://www.archive.org/details/legendaa ... 00butlgoog - Legenda Aurea - Légende Dorée - Golden Legend: A Study of Caxton's Golden Legend with Special ... (1899) Author: Pierce Butler
*9 http://www.archive.org/details/saintjacquesenga00duch - Saint Jacques en Galice (1900) Author: Duchesne, L. (Louis), 1843-1922 -
*10 http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/pr ... 2_0000_002 - E.-Ch. Babut. Priscillien et le priscillianisme. Paris, H. Champion, 1909. (Bibliothèque de l'Ecole des Hautes-Etudes, fasc. 169.) -
And…
- http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priscillianisme - Priscillien, mort à Trèves en 385, est un évêque d'Avila, condamné pour hérésie, et le premier chrétien condamné à mort et exécuté par une autorité chrétienne pour cette raison. Le priscillianisme est une des premières hérésies condamnée par la jeune Église de Rome. Certains la rapprochent des pauliciens. –
- http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpresseboo ... nd=ucpress - The Making of a Heretic; Gender, Authority, and the Priscillianist Controversy - Virginia Burrus –
- http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.blogspot.com - http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.com - PILGRIMAGE TO HERESY, Don't Believe Everything They Tell You, A Novel of the Camino; by TRACY SAUNDERS
- Boanerges - see miscellaneous-topics/topic11158-100.html?sid=70f56c037be6785a2bc41f9aa32b640b#p75449
 

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Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Here is a quote for Tracey - and maybe a rebuke for those of us who would really like everything buttoned up!

Rabbi Steve Cohen: “Certainty is where we end up when we lose faith because we are too scared of what we think we know being wrong, and to me, that is the ultimate, that is death. The people here get sick of me saying this, but you haven’t heard me say it so I will say it again, but I say over and over again that I will always prefer a good question to a good answer because a good answer stops the conversation, but a good question gets us talking— that, to me, is a stance of faith.”

There are more from other celebrated 'thinkers' here:-
http://biologos.org/blog/a-leap-of-trut ... -certainty

Enjoy!
Blessings
Terry
 
Boanerges - Heavenly twins

Following
twins, cousins, brothers... soul-mates? ... - a few links will follow soon on a new post Boanerges
Update 1-9-2011 (more on Boarnerges and Heavenly Twins on this forum from around 2008)
http://openlibrary.org/works/OL1084343W/Boanerges - http://www.archive.org/stream/boanerges ... 0/mode/2up - RENDEL HARRIS. Woodbrook, Sally Oak, 1 August 1913 – 424pp – “INTRODUCTION: In the present treatise, I propose to make a more extended study of the Cult of the Heavenly Twins…”.
Also see miscellaneous-about-santiago/topic3794.html?hilit=boanerges#p21373 : Cult of Heavenly Twins in BOANERGES by Rendel Harris by PILGRIMSPLAZA on April 14th, 2008, 1:07 am [short version]; and Cult of the Heavenly Twins in BOANERGES by Rendel Harris by PILGRIMSPLAZA on April 14th, 2008, 12:35 am [long version] on miscellaneous-topics/topic3632.html#p21372
I might get back to these beautiful subjects later after some more digging in earlier discoveries; twins are really magic!
 
A selection of Camino Jewellery
Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

I am surprised that James 'son of thunder' and James Minor are mixed up again!!! For the umpteenth time on this and other threads, James the Great and his brother John were called by Jesus "Sons of Thunder" as in St Mark's Gospel, chapter 3 verse 17. James, the son of Alphaeus as in St Mark's Gospel chapter 3 verse 18 (called 'the Less' but probably 'the smaller' - el chico!)was a totally different person. James Minor was shown in mediaeval iconography with a staff (often looks like a decorated T staff ) representing a fullers club by which he was traditionally beaten to death. If we do not distinguish correctly between the two we can run into no end of problems when looking at ancient carvings.

Blessings
Terry

Here are the saints depicted on the mediaeval screen in Chivelstone church, Devon.
Number 13 (on the left) is James the Less with his fullers club.
Number 7 (on the right) is James the Great with his pilgrim staff and hat.
 

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Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Tracy,

Philip Pullman is an atheist with an anti-Christian streak in his writing.

I heard him talk about this book on BBC radio and he was quite clear that it is totally a work of fiction.

If you'd asked me I would have said, don't bother wasting your time on the book - unless you like reading fabrication beyond fiction.
 
Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

As far as I am aware there is no scriptural basis for the idea that John was much younger than James.

The reason why that is deduced is probably based on the notion that John wrote the book of Revelation which is usually dated around the turn of the first century. If he was not a young man at the time of Jesus' ministry he would have been truly ancient by the time Revelation was written.

The story goes, John was imprisoned; an old man, he then escaped to Ephesus where he wrote down the Revelation.

Nice story but no historical documents early enough to support this theory.

We simply do not know how old either James or John were at the times of Jesus' ministry, but they were old enough to be known as hotheads, perhaps suggesting that they had not yet become too old to fight. That tells us nothing.

At the moment we simply do not know all that we want to know.
 
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Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

There is no evidence whatsoever that Jesus was a twin and, as far as I am aware, any documents purporting to say this are so late as to be suspect.

The Americans may have coined the phrase, disinformation, but they did not invent it.

I don't disagree with the statement, twins are special as my step-grandchildren are exactly that.

Terry, the DNA test might prove useful, but whether they would be conclusive I am not sure.
 
Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Agree. not possible that Jesus was a twin - if he had been there would have been two claimants to be the descendant of the house of David who was born to be the Messiah, not one.

Hard to know the ages of any of the disciples - except that we seem to know that John (the one who as an old man gave the historical anecdotes for the Gospel of John) was still very young in the Garden on the last night.
One possibility - a Jew had to be a full adult male of thirty years old to speak or read in a synagogue. Jesus starts his mission by reading in the synagogue in Nazareth - as it is the beginning of his mission and this is the first time he does this it is probable (possible) that he was thirty at that point. So if he called any of his disciples hotheads, sons of Thunder and so on he was most likely speaking of/to younger men than himself, don't you think?

As education was compulsory for all Jews it is odd how they are written as being so uneducated - almost as if it is a format - such as the Lone ranger/Tonto, Batman/Robin. The wise master having to explain to stupid followers .. the device allowing the text to reinforce explanations. I doubt if they were as dull as they appear in the Gospels. But younger? I think so. It is normal for the young to follow an elder, and if Jesus was only thirty when he became ".. a man approved of God among you, by miracles, and wonders, and signs, which God did by him ..", as Peter described him, then how old were they?

Just a thought.
 
east or west... views depending on where your crib stood?

TerryB said:
I am surprised that James 'son of thunder' and James Minor are mixed up again!!!
Is it really that simple? I just read that our two James's are “often identified”.

The identity of James - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08280a.htm > St. James the Less > The identity of James > James in the Scriptures > James outside of the Scriptures - On the whole, although there is no full evidence for the identity of James (2), the son of Alpheus, and James (3), the brother of the Lord, and James (4), the son of Mary of Clopas, the view that one and the same person is described in the New Testament in these three different ways, is by far the most probable. There is, at any rate, very good ground (Galatians 1:19, 2:9, 2:12) for believing that the Apostle James, the son of Alpheus is the same person as James, the brother of the Lord, the well-known Bishop of Jerusalem of the Acts. As to the nature of the relationship which the name "brother of the Lord" is intended to express, see BRETHREN OF THE LORD.

The Brethren of the Lord - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02767a.htm > The identity of James, Jude and Simon > The exact nature of the relationship between the Saviour and his "brethren" - Two questions in connexion with these "brethren" of the Lord have long been, and are still now more than ever, the subject of controversy: (1) The identity of James, Jude, and Simon; (2) the exact nature of the relationship between the Saviour and his "brethren".

Possible identity with James, the brother of Jesus - http://www.answers.com/topic/james-son- ... r_of_Jesus > Saint James, son of Alphaeus (Ἰάκωβος, Iakōbos in Greek) was one of the Twelve Apostles of Jesus Christ. He is often identified with James the Less and commonly known by that name in church tradition.[2] - Possible identity with James, the brother of Jesus - James, son of Alphaeus, has also been identified with James the Just. This was supported by Jerome and therefore widely accepted in the Roman Catholic Church,[8] while Eastern Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and Protestants tend to distinguish between the two.

Identity - Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/james-son- ... z1Wv25IT6o - Possible identity with James the Less - James, son of Alphaeus is often identified with James the Less, who is only mentioned three times in the Bible, each time in connection with his mother. Mark 15:40 refers to "Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses", while Mark 16:1 and Matthew 27:56 refer to "Mary the mother of James". James, son of Alphaeus may also be identified as James the Just.
Since there was already another James (James, son of Zebedee) among the twelve apostles, equating James son of Alphaeus with James the Less made sense. (James son of Zebedee was sometimes called "James the Greater").
Modern Biblical scholars are divided on whether this identification is correct. John Paul Meier finds it unlikely.[4] Amongst evangelicals, the New Bible Dictionary supports the traditional identification,[5] while Don Carson[6] and Darrell Bock[7] both regard the identification as possible, but not certain.

Possible identity with James, the brother of Jesus
James, son of Alphaeus, has also been identified with James the Just. This was supported by Jerome and therefore widely accepted in the Roman Catholic Church,[8] while Eastern Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and Protestants tend to distinguish between the two.
Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/james-son- ... z1Wv2SaqU2

Or is it clear afterall? [Please explain in simpel language; these texts give me a headache!]
Could the T-staff be an invitation for concentrating on the binding (not the separating) factors?
 
Perfect memento/gift in a presentation box. Engraving available, 25 character max.
Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

James, son of Alphaeus is James the Just.
James, brother of Jesus and leader of the early church in Jerusalem, James the Less.
James of Compostella, James the Great.

Or am I missing something here?
 
Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

methodist.pilgrim.98 said:
Or am I missing something here?
A long, dry & warm evening, a comfy chair, good company, no muzak and plenty of real cold ale! Thank you & Cheers! :D
 
Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

real cold ale!

In England we have real ale (it comes in numerous varieties from lots of small breweries). It is never served cold!
 
The 2024 Camino guides will be coming out little by little. Here is a collection of the ones that are out so far.
Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

methodist.pilgrim.98 said:
real cold ale!
In England we have real ale (it comes in numerous varieties from lots of small breweries). It is never served cold!
Ahhhhh. A hand-pumped ale. I linger for a pint or two...
Some things are impossible to get on the Camino (or in Holland) :cry:

Ultreya,
Carli Di Bortolo
 
Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Lots of information, some of which may be correct. Any knowledge? Do people know the difference? Does it matter? Is the coffee better in Spain or Italy?
 
Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Ah - good point. Seems to me that there is absolutely no knowledge on this, none at all, only supposition.

coffee is better in Holland :lol:
 
Ideal sleeping bag liner whether we want to add a thermal plus to our bag, or if we want to use it alone to sleep in shelters or hostels. Thanks to its mummy shape, it adapts perfectly to our body.

€46,-
Having locked the topic and asked people to calm down and refrain from posting personal posts this topic was unlocked and the first new post (deleted) was a personal one. It will be locked for a longer period now.

Thread unlocked again - Friday 9th September.
 
This topic was going great guns until we all got a bit carried away and it was locked and then re-opened. I'd like to kick it off again with the following article, posted today by Javier Martin on Facebook. I'm surprised he hasn't yet posted here (so I beat you to it, Javier!). I'm posting it to show that I AM open to new ideas and new research despite my (continued claim) that St. James' relics do NOT inhabit the silver reliquery and that they are far more likely to be those of Priscillian, one time bishop of Avila, executed for "heresy and witchcraft". I believe Priscillian was innocent of the charges and I have written extensively on this topic (as most of you know) in my novel Pilgrimage to Heresy.
The gist of the message I will interpose in between the text. My own comments follow at the foot of this message:

La historia de Santiago puede quedar totalmente confirmada con el descubrimiento que acaba de hacer público un profesor de la Facultad de Filosofía y Letras de la Universidad de Navarra.
Enrique Alarcón afirma que ha descifrado la palabra Jacob, es decir, Santiago, escrita en el sepulcro que alberga las reliquias del Apóstol en la Catedral de Santiago. A professor from the University of Navarra claims that he has translated the word "James" in the tomb in the crypt in Santiago Cathedral. La inscripción, explica, está realizada en caracteres hebreos que se pueden datar en el siglo I después de Cristo. The inscription is in Hebrew and dates from the first century.
Este nombre de Santiago en hebreo aparece entrelazado con la palabra griega martyr, que literalmente quiere decir testigo, y que Alarcón vincula con la celebración de la fiesta cristiana de Pentecostés. It seems to be interlaced with a Greek word: Martyr which means "witness" literally and which the professor, Alarcon, links with the festival of Pentecost.
Según explica, el rótulo objeto de estudio, que ya había sido descubierto por un investigador gallego, Isidoro Millán, hace más de dos décdas, "tiene una simbología muy rica, que se corresponde con las inscripciones sepulcrales que se conservan en el primitivo cementerio judeocristiano de Jerusalén". The object in question was discovered two decades ago by a Gallego investigator, Isodoro Millán: "it has a rich symbolism corresponding with the inscriptions preserved in the first Judeo-Christina cemetaries in Jerusalem."
Continued on next post as am having difficulty highlighting to italics here.
 
Continúa explicando que "he encontrado que alude a la fiesta judía de Shavu'ot (Pentecostés), cuando los apóstoles predicaron por primera vez a todos los pueblos". (What has been discovered) alludes to the Pentecost Festival which was being introduced at that time to the people (or villages?).
Alarcón recuerda que "Cristo les había dicho que ya podían salir de Jerusalén, y les había hecho el mandato de que fueran sus testigos hasta el fin de la tierra", es decir, el finis terrae al que aludían los romanos para referirse a la costa atlántica gallega. Alacon reminds us that Jesus had required his disciples to go out to the ends of the earth to preach. That is to say, Alarcon adds, this alludes to the Gallego coast: to the Roman "finisterre".
Para el investigador, "la inscripción se refiere a Santiago como cumplidor de este mandato, testigo de Cristo en el Finistérrae, y es casi contemporánea, ya que los caracteres hebreos son anteriores al año setenta después de Cristo. I FIND THIS BIT VERY INTRIGUING! (AND A BIT SUSPICIOUS...) The investigator says that the inscription refers to Santiago as carrying out his Master's wishes and that the Hebrew characters are BEFORE the seventh century (WHY ADD THIS? See my comments below).
Una afirmación que considera que viene confirmada "por la representación de panes rituales de Shavu'ot, que dejaron de hacerse dicho año tras la destrucción del templo de Jerusalém por los romanos". The statement is considered to be confirmed "by the representation of ritual breads Shavu'ot, which ceased to be the year after the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem by the Romans."
Por su parte, la Universidad de Navarra ha destacado que "el hallazgo refuerza la tradición de que en el sepulcro de Compostela se encuentran los restos del Apóstol Santiago traídos desde Jerusalén". The University of Navarra claims the discovery reinforces the Santiago tradition in Compostela.
There is a bit more (link below) to be "translated" but ese maldito programma doesn't want me to highlight it. No doubt sneaky way to stop long-winded posters like me from writing too much. :wink: My comments follow...

En esta línea, señalan que el estudio también sirve para confirmar de forma definitiva "su predicación años antes de su martirio en Finisterre. "La representación de lo que parece ser una lengua de fuego coincide también con la narración de Pentecostés en el Nuevo Testamento, y ratifica su historicidad".
Como colofón, el investigador afirma que "por su importancia, la inscripción de Santiago debe situarse entre las principales de toda la historia de la arqueología cristiana".
El texto completo de la investigación se publica en un volumen de estudios sobre el Camino de Santiago coordinado por el profesor Piotr Roszac, de la Universidad de Torun (Polonia).


http://www.elcorreogallego.es/santiago/ ... ia-681950/
 
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Now I am sure this will make a lot of people happy. But I am not really convinced, and this is not just Tracy hanging onto her personal convictions. I am completely open to any REAL evidence which will falsify my own "claims! I've written reams on this subject, both here, on the EVIDENCE FOR ST: JAMES... (cf) thread and of course in Pilgrimage to Heresy, so won't go into any more detail. But the fact remains that BEFORE THE SEVENTH CENTURY (also cf above) most of the north of Spain and Galicia in particular was Arian! During the late 4th through the late 5th - and maybe even longer, "underground" - it was Priscillianist. And why don't you know that? Because "they" don't want you to know: execeuted heretics are not supposed to be resurrected by people like yours truly! Especially when there is a shrine in contention!
When I first began to research Priscillian there was almost nothing on the Internet and what there was was either taken from the Catholic Encyclopaedia (and that from Sulpicius Severus - hardly unbiased) or written in German (Wurtzburg Tractates discovered in late 19th century, now translated in a - alas - very expensive volume). Only recently, and I like to think I have had something to do with this, has the name of Priscillian blossomed on the Web.
Now, before I run out of space again, here are some very brief comments on the posts above:

Naturally, I am going to find this very interesting. But it still doesn't explain why there is not a single mention of St. James in the literature prior to the 8th century. (Remember, this was when the Moors began to overrun the country with Mohammed on their side) Even the so-called Battle of Clavijo lacks historical confirmation and the king who supposedly led it (according to the Codex) was later than the dates claimed! These things were rarely written, you see (That's why we call these the "Dark Ages".) Fast forward 300 years and a nice spin by Archbishop Diego Gelmirez and his doctors in the 12th century when pilgrims began to pour into Compostela bringing with them wealth and prosperity. Bit like now really...
Call me a cynic, but this seems a very convenient "discovery". I certainly wouldn't want to call into question the credentials and obvious good intent of the investigators in question;I am sure that they and the University of Navarra are sincere in their efforts. But can you carbon date an "inscription"? I don't think you can...

For more information, please see my earliest blogs on this subject. You'll have to click on 2009 and 2010 (for later posts re: Diego Gelmirez and the birth of the Cult of St. James):
http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.blogspot.com
http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.com
 
Sounds fair. I'm going to spend the rest of this thread lounging on a velvet cushioned cane armchair, sipping claret, waving at passing pedestrians and silently smiling (if I had a velvet cushioned cane armchair of course).

Just one thing which may or not be relevant. some many centuries ago the Abbey at Glastonbury suffered a severe fire. This was the days of owning relics to gain an income - pilgrims would come, the religious institution would have a steady and growing income. Glastonbury had no holy relics, nor any money to rebuild.
Three months later a monk digging in the garden (some say cemetery and buried 16 feet deep) discovered the graves of two people, Arthur and Guinevere. He knew this as lying on top was a large lead cross with the words "Here lies interred in the isle of Avalon, the renowned King Arthur" molded into it in Latin.
The relics were exhumed and put on display - pilgrims came and very soon they had enough funds to rebuild, as well as to be financially secure again.

Now, I'm not saying that these were not the remains of Arthur and Guinevere ... but .. well ... lucky coincidence don't you think?

Now, back to observer mode ..... :wink:
 
On my blog recently, I posted that I was singing a song from a famous West End musical in Santiago shortly after picking up my rental car called (true) "Lancelot". That's what it said on the tag (it was the colour supposedly). Happy to be back in my favourite city at the wheel of somebody else's brand new car, I started to sing:
"A law was made a distant moon ago here
July and August cannot be too hot.
And there's a legal limit to the snow here
In Camelot."
I started to laugh so hard I missed my turning completely and had to go back around the roundabout.
"That's Galicia!" I yelled.
Now, an update to Javier's post. Here is a comment made by someone who seems to know what he is talking about:
He conocido este julio a Enrique Alarcón, el investigador que hizo las inquietantes fotos. Es hebraísta y epigrafista no profesional. Lo suyo es ser Profesor de Metafísica. Es prudente y el estado de la cuestión es el siguiente: todo el material está en manos de los cuatro top del epigrafismo paleocristiano, los cuales se espera que den un primer dictamen pasados no muchos meses. Mario Clavell Blanch
The gist is that the poster met Alarcón in July. He - the professor - is a Hebraist and "epigraphist": someone who studies ancient writings. "No profesional" could be not a professional or unprofessional. I don't know. It seems that the material is now in the hands of some of the top paleo-Christian epigraphists and they are expected to make a statement as to the authenticity etc. of the writing within a short while.
So, we have to wait...
In the meantime... http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.com
 
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Priscillian said:
http://www.elcorreogallego.es/santiago/ecg/revelador-hallazgo-historico-sepulcro-apostol-santiago/idEdicion-2011-06-25/idNoticia-681950/
Found some more interesting sources: http://infocatolica.com/?t=noticia&cod=9449http://blogs.periodistadigital.com/boka ... 27/p297908 - [in babblefish translation] ...Some evildoers and many idiots maintain or insinuate that in the tomb hereje Prisciliano, a lie born in the century XIX is buried, and that as all the anticatholic lies have the long legs. Others, like the Scholastic family of escribidores, father and son, arrive at the blasphemy. But, fortunately for them, this one will even be forgiven to them… they request if it... - http://mas.laopinioncoruna.es/suplement ... e-atanasio - Don't shoot the messenger! :|
 

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.Some evildoers and many idiots maintain or insinuate that in the tomb hereje Prisciliano, a lie born in the century XIX is buried, and that as all the anticatholic lies have the long legs.
Love it! Note source.
Throw me into the furnaces of hell! Pluck out my tongue with red hot pokers! Cast me back upside down in the room full of excrement (drinking tea - an old joke)!
Por me culpa, por me culpa, por me gran culpa!
P.S. The picture shows what I have always suspected. Priscillian WAS a hunk. :D
 
The picture shows what I have always suspected. Priscillian WAS a hunk.

Tracy, I wonder how many sittings Priscillian had to do before he was satisfied that the artist had captured his true likeness?

I think you need to go and have a lie down and fan yourself. :D

Thank you for posting the report. I love it when the prosecution declares, well, of course, I may be wrong and the defendent may, after all, be innocent.
 
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