Are St James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral?

[htgute]

I know it doesn't really matter, but I find it a fascinating mystery-- anyone know some good links or books about this mystery?

 

[chrisinvermont]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

There's a long and interesting thread on this subject at http://www.caminodesantiago.me/board/miscellaneous-topics/topic4540.html?hilit=priscillian
In the end, you can never know, only believeChris

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Even the Catholic Church does not endorse the authenticity of early relics. They have had a way of mysteriously appearing centuries after the person died in obscurity. Who would have thought in the year 50 A.D. that even Jesus would make it big, much less his followers like St. James. Those who take the authenticity on faith believe the bones in Santiago are those of St. James. Everyone else settles for the symbolism of a pilgrimage destination. You get to choose your own category, and don't let anyone talk you out of it!

 

[Caminando]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Interesting because James was the brother of Christ, and widely believed to be his twin brother, which is why you dont hear much about that.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Saint James the Great

Saint James the Great (d. AD 44; יעקב "Holder of the heel; supplanter"; Standard Hebrew Yaʿaqov, Tiberian Hebrew Yaʿăqōḇ), the son of Zebedee and Salome and brother to St. John the Evangelist, was one of the disciples of Jesus. He is called Saint James the Great to distinguish him from the other apostles named James (St. James the Less & James the Just). Saint James is described as one of the first disciples to join Jesus. The Gospel of John relates the two brothers had been followers of John the Baptist, who first introduced them to Jesus (1:29-39). The Synoptic Gospels state they were with their father by the seashore when Jesus called them to begin traveling (Mt.4:21-22, Mk.1:19-20). According to Mark, James and John were called Boanerges, or the "Sons of Thunder" (3:17). In Acts of the Apostles, Luke records that King Herod had James executed by sword (Ac.12:1-2).

Saint James and Hispania
St James the Great, the apostle, is not to be confused with the author of the Epistle of James. St James is the brother of John and the son of Zebedee. Though the Acts of the Apostles gives no hint of it, and though no work of the Patristic literature mentions it, many people believe that James went to Hispania and preached Christianity there, establishing an Apostolic see. He traveled to Galicia, Spain; Guimarães, Portugal; and Rates (now Póvoa de Varzim), Portugal. In this last place, he would have ordained St Peter of Rates as the first bishop in the Iberian Peninsula.

According to ancient local tradition, on 2 January of the year AD 40, the Virgin Mary appeared to St James the Great on the bank of the Ebro River at Caesaraugusta, while he was preaching the Gospel in Spain. She supposedly appeared upon a pillar, Nuestra Señora del Pilar, and that pillar is conserved and venerated within the present Basilica of Our Lady of the Pillar, in Zaragoza, Spain. Following that apparition, St James returned to Judea, where he was beheaded by King Herod Agrippa I in the year 44.

The translation of his relics from Judea to Galicia in the northwest of Iberia was effected, in legend, by a series of miraculous happenings: decapitated in Jerusalem with a sword by Herod Agrippa himself, his body was taken up by angels, and sailed in a rudderless, unattended boat to Iria Flavia in Spain, where a massive rock closed around his relics, which were later removed to Compostela. The 12th-century Historia Compostellana commissioned by bishop Diego Gelmìrez provides a summary of the legend of St James as it was believed at Compostela. Two propositions are central to it: first, that St James preached the gospel in Spain as well as in the Holy Land; second, that after his martyrdom at the hands of Herod Agrippa I his disciples carried his body by sea to Spain, where they landed at Padrón on the coast of Galicia, and took it inland for burial at Santiago de Compostela.

An even later tradition states that he miraculously appeared to fight for the Christian army during the battle of Clavijo during the Reconquista, and was henceforth called Matamoros (Moor-slayer). Santiago y cierra España ("St James and strike for Spain") has been the traditional battle cry of Spanish armies.

St James the Moorslayer, one of the most valiant saints and knights the world ever had … has been given by God to Spain for its patron and protection.
— Cervantes, Don Quixote.

A similar miracle is related about Saint Emilianus (san Millán).The possibility that a cult of James was instituted to supplant the Galician cult of Priscillian (executed in 385) who was widely venerated across the north of Spain as a martyr to the bishops rather than as a heretic should not be overlooked. This was cautiously raised by Henry Chadwick in his book on Priscillian (Chadwick 1976); it is not the traditional Roman Catholic view. The Catholic Encyclopedia of 1908, however, records, "Although the tradition that James founded an apostolic see in Spain was current in the year 700, no certain mention of such tradition is to be found in the genuine writings of early writers nor in the early councils; the first certain mention we find in the ninth century, in Notker, a monk of St. Gall (Martyrologia, 25 July), Walafrid Strabo (Poema de XII Apostoli), and others." (The Blessed Notker died in 912.)

The tradition was not unanimously admitted afterwards, while numerous modern scholars, following L. Duchesne, reject it. The Bollandists however defended it (their Acta Sanctorum, July, VI and VII, gives further sources). The suggestion began to be made from the 9th century that, as well as evangelizing in Spain, his body may have been brought to Compostela. No earlier tradition places the burial of St James in Hispania. A rival tradition, places the relics of the Apostle in the church of St-Saturnin at Toulouse, but it is not improbable that such sacred relics should have been divided between two churches.

The authenticity of the sacred relics of Compostela was asserted in the Bull of Pope Leo XIII, "Omnipotens Deus," of 1 November 1884.

The Catholic Encyclopedia (1908) registered several "difficulties" or bases for doubts of this tradition beyond the late appearance of the legend:

St James suffered martyrdom (Acts 12:1-2) in AD 44, and according to the tradition of the early Church, he had not yet left Jerusalem at this time (see Clement of Alexandria, Stromateis, VI; Apollonius, quoted by Eusebius, Hist. Eccl. VI.xviii).

* St Paul in his Epistle to the Romans written after AD 44, expressed his intention to avoid "building on someone else's foundation" (15:20), and thus visit Spain ( 15:24), presumably unevangelized.

The tradition at Compostela placed the discovery of the relics of the saint in the time of king Alfonso II (791-842) and of bishop Theodemir of Iria. These traditions were the basis for the pilgrimage route that began to be established in the 9th century, and the shrine dedicated to James at Santiago de Compostela, in Galicia in Spain, became the most famous pilgrimage site in the Christian world. St James's Way is a tree of routes that cross Western Europe and arrive at Santiago through Northern Spain. Eventually James became the patron saint of Spain.

The military Order of Santiago or caballeros santiaguistas was founded to fight the Moors and later membership became a precious honour. People like Diego Velázquez longed for the royal favour that allowed to put on their clothes the red cross of St James (a cross fleury fitchy, with lower part fashioned as the blade of a sword blade).

The name "James" in English comes from "Iacobus" (Jacob) in Latin. In eastern Spain, Jacobus became "Jacome" or "Jaime"; in western Spain it became "Iago". "Saint James" ("Sanctus Jacobus") became "Sant' Iago", which was abbreviated to Santiago. This has sometimes been confused with San Diego, which is the Spanish name of Saint Didacus of Alcalá. James's emblem was the scallop shell (or "cockle shell"), and pilgrims to his shrine often wore that symbol on their hats or clothes.

The French for a scallop is coquille St. Jacques, which means "cockle (or mollusk) of St James". The German word for a scallop is Jakobsmuschel, which means "mussel (or clam) of St James"; the Dutch word is Jacobsschelp, meaning "shell of St James".

Not all the symbols survived the move to the Forum.

 

[dutchpilgrim]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Interesting because James was the brother of Christ, and widely believed to be his twin brother, which is why you dont hear much about that.

I think some correction is needed here:
James is the son of Zebedee and Salome,
His brother was John.
Salome was the sister of Mary.

Ultreya,
Carli Di Bortolo

 

[Caminando]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Thanks, Carli, that's a view shared by some.

It isn't a view shared by others, and certainly not shared by early Galicians, who accepted the "arrival" of James as the twin brother of Christ as it fitted their pre-existing ideas of 'Heavenly Twins'.

There are many references to the family of JC, including to his other siblings, not only James.

The quickest way to find out more is to Google it.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Relation of St. James to Jesus

Some authors, comparing John 19:25 with Matthew 28:56 and Mark 15:40, identify, and probably rightly so, Mary the Mother of James the Less and of Joseph in Mark and Matthew with "Mary of Cleophas" in John. As the name of Mary Magdalen occurs in the three lists, they identify further Salome in Mark with "the mother of the sons of Zebedee" in Matthew; finally they identify Salome with "his mother's sister" in John. They suppose, for this last identification, that four women are designated by John 19:25; the Syriac "Peshito" gives the reading: "His mother and his mother's sister, and Mary of Cleophas and Mary Magdalen." If this last supposition is right, Salome was a sister of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and James the Greater and John were first cousins of the Lord; this may explain the discipleship of the two brothers, Salome's request and their own claim to the first position in His kingdom, and His commendation of the Blessed Virgin to her own nephew. But it is doubtful whether the Greek admits of this construction without the addition or the omission of kai (and). Thus the relationship of St. James to Jesus remains doubtful.

With regard to the preaching of the Gospel in Spain by St. James the greater, several difficulties have been raised:

St. James suffered martyrdom A.D. 44 (Acts 12:2), and, according to the tradition of the early Church, he had not yet left Jerusalem at this time (cf. Clement of Alexandria, Stromata VI; Apollonius, quoted by Eusebius, Church History VI.18).
St. Paul in his Epistle to the Romans (A.D. 58) expressed the intention to visit Spain (Romans 15:24) just after he had mentioned (15:20) that he did not "build upon another man's foundation."
The argument ex silentio: although the tradition that James founded an Apostolic see in Spain was current in the year 700, no certain mention of such tradition is to be found in the genuine writings of early writers nor in the early councils; the first certain mention we find in the ninth century, in Notker, a monk of St. Gall (Martyrol., 25 July), Walafried Strabo (Poema de XII Apost.), and others.

The tradition was not unanimously admitted afterwards, while numerous scholars reject it. The Bollandists however defended it (see Acta Sanctorum, July, VI and VII, where other sources are given).

The authenticity of the sacred relic of Compostela has been questioned and is still doubted. Even if St. James the Greater did not preach the Christian religion in Spain, his body may have been brought to Compostela, and this was already the opinion of Notker. According to another tradition, the relics of the Apostle are kept in the church of St-Saturnin at Toulouse (France), but it is not improbable that such sacred relics should have been divided between two churches. A strong argument in favour of the authenticity of the sacred relics of Compostela is the Bull of Leo XIII, "Omnipotens Deus," of 1 November, 1884.

James as the brother of Jesus is wild speculation at best.

 

[Caminando]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Thanks F,

Of course, you must take up your tentative musings with the historians and Biblical scholars who assert that James was the twin brother of Christ.

If you have time, you might also care to read some relevant history of Galicia up to the time of the "arrival" of James, itself so fraught with controversy. Get back to us with any findings.

Still thinking of the VDP?

Buen camino

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

historians and Biblical scholars who assert that James was the twin brother of Christ

Which Sarah Palin scholars are these?

 

[Caminando]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Oh Falco, you sure know how to hurt a guy!

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

And a true "relic" has disappeared:

ANCIENT CODE STOLEN FROM CATHEDRAL IN SANTIAGO, SPAIN

11:30 07 LUG 2011

(AGI) Santiago de Compostela - Code Calixitino has been stolen from the cathedral of Santiago de Compostela, in Spain. The manuscript of the XII century is of great artistic and historic value and has been long considered the first guide to the "Camino de Santiago". The code takes on the name from Pope Calixt II, and was kept in a safe of the archives of the cathedral. The theft was discovered on Tuesday night. The Correo Gallego quotes sources that say that the theft must have occurred on Sunday night.

 

[Br. David]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Thanks, Carli, that's a view shared by some.

It isn't a view shared by others, and certainly not shared by early Galicians, who accepted the "arrival" of James as the twin brother of Christ as it fitted their pre-existing ideas of 'Heavenly Twins'.

There are many references to the family of JC, including to his other siblings, not only James.

The quickest way to find out more is to Google it.

Hi Caminando - there are a few, not many, references to Jesus's siblings, just a few. The James who was his brother became the head of the Jewish 'Christians' in Jerusalem and was later murdered (illegally killed by the then high priest). you can read the only book that has survived him in the New Testament, very Hebrew. They could not have been twins as one was older (Jesus) than the other.
I am not vouching for any of the stories about James in Spain and how he was found and so on but would point out that, regardless of the Galician paper trail, the James of Spain was one of his disciples, not his younger brother. It is quite possible that James went to Spain to spread the good news, had no luck and returned and after he was killed was taken back to Spain by some hard-core Spanish disciples of his, in a chartered merchant ship. There was enough time for this to happen and it would seem that the world was 'shared out' to mission, errmm missions - Thomas, after all, went to the Jews in India and died there.
Spain wasn't some backwater then you know, it was a rich and civilised part of the Roman Empire.

Some years ago I read that a fragment of skull held by the Vatican and believed to be part of the skull of the James we are talking about was matched to a missing part of the skull held in Santiago and was found to be a match fit. May not be true .. cannot remember where I read this - will search the source if I can.

p.s. the best way to find out is not to Google but to read the New Testament, don't you think? :wink:

 

[methodist.pilgrim.98]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

A bit late but it is surely the case that Jesus' brother James was the leader of the early church in Jerusalem and is known as James the Less.

James the Great - our James - is the son of Zeberdee and that is recorded in the Gospels. Zeberdee into Joseph simply won't go.

Br David is right - the Bible is THE starting point for these questions.

If you want another mystery there is a body buried in Worcester Cathedral and his grave is marked by a simple slab bearing the title Worcester Pilgrim.

The historian Katherine Lack has written an excellent book called Cockershell Pilgrim which argues it was one Robert Sutton. She goes on to recount what he would have experienced in his pilgrimage. It is a good read and one of the few books about the Camino that I recommend to others.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Br David is right - the Bible is THE starting point for these questions.

Contemporaneous documents in general are a better starting point. There has been too much editing for the Bible to be the "best" source. You cannot even get Mary's words in the Bible, and she knew the guy, perhaps in the Biblical sense. I have a friend who learned Aramaic in order to better translate the new testament from original texts, and found the King James version quite lacking.

 

[methodist.pilgrim.98]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

falcon, yes and no.

The King James is not a version I use. My late, great Professor of Theology, Bishop RPC Hanson delivered a lecture which pointed out the tranlsation mistakes and the difficulty of translation per se.

However, the strength of the Bible is that it took the church four hundred years before they finally agreed what was scripture and what was not. They understood that there were writings that arose out of various heresies and the reason the canon was agreed was so that we could be in no doubt which books were orthodox.

I am not saying that we should not take into account other writings; I merely state that the Bible is my starting point.

If you wish to start elsewhere then so be it.

I know Ivar is always a little jumpy about these sorts of posts getting into heated argument, so may I say I value your point of view even if it is not my own.

 

[Br. David]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Br David is right - the Bible is THE starting point for these questions.

Contemporaneous documents in general are a better starting point. There has been too much editing for the Bible to be the "best" source. You cannot even get Mary's words in the Bible, and she knew the guy, perhaps in the Biblical sense. I have a friend who learned Aramaic in order to better translate the new testament from original texts, and found the King James version quite lacking.

Unfortunately there are no contemporary accounts outside of the New Testament and your belief that there has been 'too much editing' is based upon what Falc? :|

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Among many others:

The First Council of Nicaea is commonly regarded to have been the first Ecumenical council of the Christian Church. Most significantly, it resulted in the first uniform Christian doctrine, called the Creed of Nicaea. With the creation of the creed, a precedent was established for subsequent general (ecumenical) councils of Bishops (Synods) to create statements of belief and canons of doctrinal orthodoxy— the intent being to define unity of beliefs for the whole of Christendom.

The council did not create the doctrine of the deity of Christ (as is sometimes claimed) but it did settle to some degree the debate within the Early Christian communities regarding the divinity of Christ. This idea of the divinity of Christ along with the idea of Christ as a messenger from the one God ("The Father") had long existed in various parts of the Roman empire. The divinity of Christ had also been widely endorsed by the Christian community in the otherwise pagan city of Rome. The council affirmed and defined what it believed to be the teachings of the Apostles regarding who Christ is: that Christ is the one true God in deity with the Father.

 

[Br. David]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Yes Falc, but not contemporary to the first Christians and writings - Nicea was some hundreds of years later - your point was contemporary - and there are no contemporary writings about Jesus or Christianity outside of the New Testament

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

and there are no contemporary writings about Jesus or Christianity outside of the New Testament

That is simply not true.

 

[Br. David]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Falcon, I know you like to argue but .. if you think it not true please mention just one example.

just one will do :wink:

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

The Gospel of Mary is found in the Berlin Gnostic Codex (or Papyrus Berolinensis 8502, as this ancient collection of Gnostic texts is labeled for archival reasons). This very important and well-preserved codex was apparently discovered in the late-nineteenth century somewhere near Akhmim in upper Egypt. It was purchased in 1896 by a German scholar, Dr. Carl Reinhardt, in Cairo and then taken to Berlin.

The book (or "codex", as these ancient books are called) was probably copied and bound in the late fourth or early fifth century. It contains Coptic translations of three very important early Christian Gnostic texts: the Gospel of Mary, the Apocryphon of John, and the Sophia of Jesus Christ. The texts themselves date to the second century and were originally authored in Greek. (In academic writing over the last century, this codex is variably and confusingly referenced by scholars as the "Berlin Gnostic Codex", the "Akhmim Codex", PB 8502, and BG 8502).

Despite the importance of the discovery of this ancient collection of Gnostic scriptures, several misfortunes including two world wars delayed its publication until 1955. By then the large Nag Hammadi collection of ancient Gnostic writings had also been recovered. It was found that copies of two of the texts in this codex -- the Apocryphon of John, and the Sophia of Jesus Christ -- had also been preserved in the Nag Hammadi collection. The texts from the Berlin Gnostic Codex were used to aid and augment translations of the Apocryphon of John and the Sophia of Jesus Christ as they now are published in Nag Hammadi Library.

But more importantly, the codex preserves the most complete surviving fragment of the Gospel of Mary (as the text is named in the manuscript, though it is clear this named Mary is the person we call Mary of Magdala). Two other small fragments of the Gospel of Mary from separate Greek editions were later unearthed in archaeological excavations at Oxyrhynchus in lower Egypt. (Fragments of the Gospel of Thomas were also found at this ancient site; see the Oxyrhynchus and Gospel of Thomas page for more information about Oxyrhynchus.) Finding three fragments of a text of this antiquity is extremely unusual, and it is thus evidenced that the Gospel of Mary was well distributed in early Christian times and existed in both an original Greek and a Coptic language translation.

Unfortunately the surviving manuscript of the Gospel of Mary is missing pages 1 to 6 and pages 11 to 14 -- pages that included sections of the text up to chapter 4, and portions of chapter 5 to 8. The extant text of the Gospel of Mary, as found in the Berlin Gnostic Codex, is presented below. The manuscript text begins on page 7, in the middle of a passage.

 

[Br. David]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Nope, sorry Falcon - the earliest there is 2nd century (possibly) - you mentioned contemporary.

There are no writings that are contemporary with Jesus and the early church outside of the New Testament. None.

Just one example will do Falcon. :wink:

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Nothing was contemporaneous by your definition. The earliest writings were about 60 A.D., and writings through the end of the second century were included in the bible. Within that time period there were many other writings that were not included. You win the circular logic debate. If it has to be in the bible for it to be factual to you, then there is nothing further to be said.

The definition of faith is that it does not require facts for proof. The thread was asking for facts, not faith, so I have been addressing where facts might exist. I am not challenging or arguing issues of faith, since they cannot be proven, only accepted or rejected.

There are thousands of pages of contemporaneous documents that are not in the bible. The Vatican has many. Many were lost in the burning of the library at Alexandria. It is indisputable that Jesus was written about in places other than the bible, particularly as it is restated in the King James version, English not being a language widely spoken in the Middle East in the first and second centuries.

Feel free, as you will, to have the last word.

 

[Br. David]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Nope Falcon - won't wash I'm afraid. Gnostic writings came later during the Hellenisation period. You wrote "Contemporaneous documents in general" and there are none outside of the New Testament. There are no 'contemporaneous documents.
By this I mean that there are no non-Christian documents that mention Jesus or the 'Good News'.

There is absolutely no mention of Jesus outside of the New Testament during that early period - contemporary with that period. The 'disallowed' gospels you mention (and you guess that there were more - perhaps there were) are all much later - they are not contemporary.

It is not a circular argument, I do not have any need to be 'right', and this isn't a faith over fact thing either - facts are good - I just ask you to support your position by offering just one non New Testament document that even refers to Jesus that is of the period :wink:

You say that "There are thousands of pages of contemporaneous documents that are not in the bible. The Vatican has many. Many were lost in the burning of the library at Alexandria. It is indisputable that Jesus was written about in places other than the bible"

This is excellent news Falcon, excellent - now, to support such a position - name one Falcon. Just one will do :wink:

By the way - the Alexandrian library burned in 47BC, a bit before Jesus lived. The later story of the burning of the library in 642AD, made by a Christian scholar 600 years later is considered to be false and an early case of anti-Islamic propaganda- no one else mentions such an event, so I'm afraid that your fantasy documents were destroyed in a fantasy fire that didn't happen. :|

 

[methodist.pilgrim.98]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

When was the Gospel of Thomas written?

Certainly the first letter of Clement was considered for inclusion in the canon of Scripture though I believe it was turn of the century, but maybe the same age as Revelation. Since Clement was not recognised as one of the apostles it fell outside of the criteria set for inclusion.

Part of the problem is that the manuscripts we have are deemed to be copies of the original works and are at least 2nd century documents. The John Ry;ands fragment of John's Gospel is dated anywhere from 117CE onwards.

So what then is Contemporaneous?

Given that the gospels were firstly recounted for years via oral history I think the argument is not provable one way or the other.

It is a pity that this discussion cannot be had over a bottle of vino tinto outside of a Camino bar. That is the sort of place such things should be debated.

 

[Br. David]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

True and that glass of wine would be very nice, but it would only lead to personal opinions not fact. The fact is that we do not have any account of Jesus and his disciples from non-Christian sources from the time of Jesus, nor from any actions of his disciples. This includes everything - his teachings, status, crucifixion etc.

The earliest reference is the small and dubious passage (as it was manipulated and added to by later Christians) by the Jewish historian (and failed general who changed sides and joined the Romans) Josephus. The earliest reference, and Josephus was not even born until three or four years after the crucifixion. He wrote his history many many decades later into his life.

As you will know, there is actually a teaching document from the early times (say, 55 - 100), the Didache, but this is a Christian tool, not an external reference. The first letter of Clement? Somewhere between 80 and 140 surely. If the disciples were allowed to speak in synagogue they had to be at least thirty years old during the life of Jesus, which would place them as at least 80 years old at AD80, and easily dead by 100AD so I don't think that you can put that letter into contemporaneous writings.

Contemporaneous means happening during the same period of time - so my point stands, don't you think?

Please note that I am not trying to debase early Christianity, only to be clear that other, external, documents do not exist, nor are they referred to elsewhere so they are not 'lost' either.
I do not think that one has to be fuzzy in one's thinking, nor accept blindly myths that are patently untrue, to be a follower of Jesus but I cannot offer up truth as a sacrifice to belief. Who would? :|

But let us let this fade away - it is well off topic! :lol: All is well.

 

[MichaelB10398]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Brother David,
I agree; this off-topic conversation needs to stop. If any of you feel the need for more conversation, please take it off the board.

Peace to each of you,

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

There is a feature of the Forum that can be used by those who do not wish to read posts:

How can I add / remove users to my Friends or Foes list?
You can add users to your list in two ways. Within each user’s profile, there is a link to add them to either your Friend or Foe list. Alternatively, from your User Control Panel, you can directly add users by entering their member name. You may also remove users from your list using the same page.

It allows the user to control what he sees without the need to censor what others see.

 

[Priscillian]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

And to think all this has been going on while I've been offline...
You are all getting totally off-topic. The question is: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral. The answer is NO. I've got a lot to do over the next couple of days getting ready for the pilgrim conference in Villafranca (I am presenting the new book), but will certainly have to get my two centimos' worth in.
In the meantime, do please visit my blog at http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.blogspot.com. The two most recent posts discuss the Codex Calixtinus. Then, go right back to the beginning two years ago. There you can read about the "Inventio" of "James's" discovery to your hearts' content. Spain need a figurehead; the Moors had the Prophet. Diego Gelmirez needed money, prestige and his own glory - hence the Historia Compostela and the now much missed Codex Calixtinus which though entertaining is a pack of porkies from beginning to end (um ... Geert: Cockney ryhming slang "Porky Pies" = lies).
Right, gotta go now. Hope to join you all later. Oh and do search Subject "Who is really buried in Compostela?" on this forum. miscellaneous-topics/topic4540.html?hilit=priscillian
That'll stop y'all re-inventing the wheel and you can get back to theological discussion elsewhere...

http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.com

 

[colinPeter]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

The answer is NO.

Well, I guess the capital "NO" settles it.

 

[Br. David]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

So that's the boys told off for talking in the dorm then ....

caught enjoying ourselves, whatever next :|

(and I thought we had been discussing history not theology - but what do I know .. :| )

 

[methodist.pilgrim.98]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

If I were pedantic, which thankfully I'm not, I would argue we were discussing ancient manuscripts.

However, we are so off topic I thought we might get our hands slapped, so I desisted.

 

[Br. David]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

or the lack of those historical documents - such a shame that the Kitim destroyed Jerusalem.

But, me too - Matron is scary, I'm off before she comes back :|

 

[Priscillian]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Yep... watch out for Matron.
Can you please show me the HISTORICAL data for the stone boat, angel's wind "translatio" stuff? I am more than willing to throw the whole Priscillian possibility in doubt, but believe me (and I have spent years researching this now), there is no (can capitalise it if you wish) base for the St. James' buried in the Cathedral story. The "discovery" ("inventio") was politically expedient as is the rest of the St. James' story. Circumstantially, Priscillian is far more likelñy, andf that's all we have thanks to the outright destruction of virtually anything pertaining to Priscillianism by the Roman church.
Now LIGHTS OUT or I shall have to speak with the Headmaster in the morning.

 

[Br. David]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

yes yes, we know all that .. everyone knows all that .. we were just having male fun - debating.

All is well :wink:

 

[grilly]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

I have no idea whether James's remains are in Santiago. All I know is that the last time I was in front of the relics in the crypt, feeling rather depressed I must say, I prayed there. Suddenly, I thought that if the remains in the small gold casket were James's, it was the closest I would ever be to Jesus... And it felt really special.

 

[methodist.pilgrim.98]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

I have no idea whether James's remains are in Santiago. All I know is that the last time I was in front of the relics in the crypt, feeling rather depressed I must say, I prayed there. Suddenly, I thought that if the remains in the small gold casket were James's, it was the closest I would ever be to Jesus... And it felt really special.

Amen. Your comment sums up why lurking in this forum is so worthwhile.

 

[Br. David]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

I agree completely, without reserve :wink:

 

[colinPeter]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

"Reason’s last step is the recognition that there are an infinite number of things which are beyond it". - Blaise Pascal

"Lights still on". - Col

 

[Priscillian]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Even Matron agrees that it does not matter to whom we speak when in the cathedral but that the messages we receive = of courage, strength, love - that is the only thing of any importance.
Am off to check out the other dorms now.
http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.com
http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.blogspot.com

 

[Priscillian]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

P.S. The fragment of the skull was sent to the Bishop of Pistoia by Diego Gelmirez in 1138 as a token of gratitude (and knowing DG, quite possibly paid for handsomely!). It was produced upon the re-discovery in the late 19th century to 'authenticate' the identity of the remains. Fits, therefore must be Saint James. This of course begs the question (totally ignored by the logic known by the Vatican) as to whether the skull belonged to James in the first place! I believe, as you all know by now, that it belongs to Priscillian, decapitated bishop of Avila, 385ce. However the miraculous fit proves nothing at all about the identity of the remains whether they are first century or 4th.
Matron over and out...

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Well, just because you have done years of research that included extensive source documents, Priscillian, and have a scholarly grasp of the facts, don't expect us to be dazzled into giving up our firmly held opinions. Lindsay Lohan may just want to do what she wants to do, and I, for one, just want to believe what I want to believe. My mind is made up; do not confuse me with facts.

Some Smilie should go here, but I don't know which one.

 

[Br. David]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

There are more things in heaven and earth, Priscillio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. :wink:

 

[Priscillian]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Br. David and Falcon, my dear little ones. I will NEVER trample on your faith or beliefs neither of which (by definition) have any connection with "facts" anyway, AND, I have never had any claim to accuracy in that department either. Both of you ladies might be protesting just a little too much???
Hmmmm?
We love what we love, we believe what we believe; we cherish what we cherish, worship what we worship: we follow what we follow. If I follow a different path then no one has to follow me, but perhaps by blazing that trail I am allowing those who do not have your beliefs, but don't quite have the courage to seek a different path, to see that another perspective, another gateway, another hilltop does in fact exist (and maybe many, many, many...many that nbeither you nor I can see). TS
Try Kindling Pilgrimage to Heresy on Amazon. You can download it to KindlePC for free. You don't need a Kindle device. The book itself will cost you a couple of bucks. If you don't like what you read I will order for you any other Kindle book you would prefer to read for the same amount. You can't ask better than that. In fact, I am so sure of my book that I invite any forum member to do the same. I am not trying to make money. I have so much money, time, effort, heart invested in this English language edition (prior to the Spanish edition which has more than paid for itself thanks to a mainstream publisher and a more open-minded Spanish readership: two printings, 16,000+ in less than 2 years sold)that I will never recoup it, but that's not why I wrote it. I wrote it so that YOU would learn of Priscillian and the massive injustice done to him and his followers by the church and the Emperor of Rome.
There, the gauntlet is down. Take it up...I'm up for it!
http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.com
Amazon - Challenge Link:
http://www.amazon.com/Pilgrimage-Heresy ... 477&sr=1-1

 

[Priscillian]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Lindsay Lohan....? Jesus Murphy! Holy Jumping Jehospehats (sp?)...whadya'all take me for?

 

[Br. David]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Steady Priscillio, steady. You make assumptions, in fact this is a Feast of Assumptions.

I, for one, do not believe that the historical remains of St James are in Santiago (though I would hesitate before stating that I am certain - how could I be?) but I would say that you confuse your fact (and profit) related view with what I contend is a more real world where 'facts' are replaced by direct knowledge, gnosis.

The path of collecting facts is all very well, but it smacks of stamp-collecting, which has no purpose other than the personal pleasure given by the owning of the stamps and the delight in lists. Stamp collecting is far removed from the postal service and light years away from the contents of the mail carried. The essence of personal letters to loved ones, for instance, is not their being carried, nor how many, nor who started the postal service, nor collecting the stamps that go on envelopes, it is the content of the letters.
The factual history of St. James lives in a different world to the essence of pilgrimage and arrival at 'his' remains, as true pilgrimage is internal, not external.

So, there is no disagreement, only the error of trying to explain the inner by reference to the outer.

All is well :wink:

 

[colinPeter]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

... it does not matter to whom we speak when in the cathedral but that the messages we receive = of courage, strength, love - that is the only thing of any importance.

No, truth is also important.
As is faith, which is a wondeful gift from God.
Col

 

[methodist.pilgrim.98]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

In medieval times one of the reasons went to the shrines of the saints was that physical proximity to the bones made a difference. It was as if you were in the same room as they. If you were physically near they would be more likely to hear your prayers and interceed on your behalf with the Father.

I suspect, but cannot prove, that as we humans understood that the universe is much larger than we thought, this understanding faded.

But as grilly suggests this medieval notion has not entirely died out. I suspect, despite my belief that the working of the Holy Spirit is dynamic, and her presence is shot through the universe, that I too believe in the importance of proximity.

As a man (biological fact), I pass through time in a human existence, but also live through the Holy Spirit as one who is in a personal relationship with God. God is Father (as well as many other things beside). I live, if you prefer, in the nexus point. When I am in the crypt, I am linked to James through the medium of history, but also to the saint through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. God sees not a church on earth, nor a church in heaven, but one Church. As a result as I sit beside a friend in church to pray with and alongside them, so I am praying with and alongside James.

It does matter to some that when they are in the crypt they are close to the physical remains of St James.

This winter I will probably read your book - but before you get too excited remember that my favourite reading is Science Fiction & Fantasy :wink: - and I might or might not come to agree with you.

However, even when a case is apparenlty "open and closed" then some evidence comes along and turns everything on it's head.

To sum up, the reality is the jury is still out and in the meantime James is innocent until proven guilty.

ps. I hope the stitches are holding, that you have not injured yourself any further and the Conference goes well.

 

[colinPeter]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

I am linked to James through the medium of history, but also to the saint through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. God sees not a church on earth, nor a church in heaven, but one Church. As a result as I sit beside a friend in church to pray with and alongside them, so I am praying with and alongside James..

Yes, it is a beautiful experience to pray in the crypt. I had the opportunity to participate in Mass there early one morning, and then to stand and pray beside the silver reliquary for some time.
I've always thought that this "linkage" is also what is so compelling about the Camino, to those who consider themselves as "non religious". Not the praying, but the walking with the multitudes of "believers" who walked previously. That is what I think touches the eternal spirit, within each modern peregrino.

 

[methodist.pilgrim.98]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

My 50th birthday was spent in SDC. I went early to the Cathedral in the hope that the Mass would celebrated in the crypt itself. It was. A proundly important part of reaching my half cetury.

 

[grilly]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Frankly I love the idea of praying with my feet, to place my feet in the footsteps of millions of pilgrims who walked the same path before me. Pilgrims and not pilgrims, in fact.
I do feel the path has become sacred through all these feet praying and thinking and fighting their own inner demons, dealing with unfinished business, and encountering themselves more and more the closer they get to Santiago.
Each one of us is after something -- that something is so far beyond ourselves that it blows my mind

 

[Br. David]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

These are moving posts - I like this thread very much.

 

[Priscillian]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

"Profit-related........"? Br. David, por favor! If you only knew how much this research has cost me in money and time. If I ever have a "best seller" from either P to H, St. James' Rooster or any other book I write, believe me it'll only scratch the surface unless I get Dan Brown status. What I create is a public service. You don't have to "buy" it. Pilgrimage to Heresy is just as much a spiritual "guide" as it is a polemic.
Writers write because they must. Researchers correct facts where they can. That I am doing here.
As for a Feast of Assumptions, yes, I agree, but better that than complacency, simply swallowing what is fed to us wholesale.
N'est pas?
Matron is off to see what she can dig up in Compostela....
I LOVE this town!!!
http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.blogspot.com

 

[Lydia Gillen]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

I did not believe that the bones of st. James are in the Cathedral, but it did not matter to me. the Camino was about leaving daily life for a while and leaving oneself open to the action of God.

However this year on the 10th June I went to the prayer time in the cathedral at 7.30 pm. This was announced each day by the nun who leads the singing and it takes place in a chapel off the ambulatory that runs behind the high altar to the right of the altar.

After the prayer time (about 30 present) the priest who facilitated it brought us down to the crypt and told us the history of the finding of the remains. In fact the remains of three men were found, one a man in his forties beheaded and the other two much older men who appeared to have died from natural causes. The wall down there is a first century wall. the priest spoke for about twenty minutes and afterwards I felt reasonably sure that the remains of St. James are really there.

However God gifts each one of us who travels the Camino with the blessings we need at the time irrespective of whether the bones in the Cathedral are those of St. James or those of some other first century man.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

The wall down there is a first century wall. the priest spoke for about twenty minutes and afterwards I felt reasonably sure that the remains of St. James are really there.

A quick set of scientific tests could resolve both the age of the wall and the age of the remains! First century on both; the remains could be James. Otherwise, no.

 

[jpflavin1]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

This has been an interesting thread to read. I am not sure any one can definitively answer the question posed but it has lead to lively discussion.

I believe one thing most Pilgrims achieve, whether it was intentional or not, is a sense of connection with all those who have made the journey before. Some of the more thoughtful sections of the Camino for me are the fences with all the crosses previous Pilgrims have left behind. The pile of stones transported from all over the world to the iron cross at Cruz de Ferro and no matter what a Pilgrims faith or belief most visit the Cathedral and tomb.

Most, if not all Pilgrims, in my opinion, walk the Camino in search of something. To paraphrase a quote from a Mick Jagger song, I believe in the end we might not have received what we wanted, but we all probably got something we needed.

Ultreya,
Joe

 

[Priscillian]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

I too had the opportunity to go down under the cathedral to see the excavations. I went with a guide from the "Palacio de Gelmirez" (Diego Gelmirez is the subject of St. James' Rooster which is currently at the publishers).We have to remember that the Romans had a sanctuary here dedicated to Jupiter and that what we now know as "Compostela" has had many names. Naturally, there would have been some sort of a wall and it is quite visible. But the first century graves are Roman and almost certainly pagan. In fact, the majority date from the late 4th century - Priscillian's time. The remainder are Sueve and therefore Arian. Priscillianism was more or less tolerated (though by then pretty well underground) (no pun intended) by the Sueves because their own religion was not dissimilar.

Aristotle developed the syllogism. For your priest, perhaps it goes something like this:

The wall and some of the remains under the cathedral are from the first century
St. James was here in the first century; His disciples brought him back in a rudderless, sailless boat
Therefore the remains must be of St. James

I am sure he meant well, and no doubt believes this. But if you check both my other thread on this subject and the posts here you will see that this is FAR from certain!

If we have to use formal logic I prefer this:

Most of the remains found under the cathedral in Compostela appear at the end of the 4th century
They are oriented towards the east
Priscillian and his followers were decapitated in 385 CE and his remains were brought back to his native Galicia where he had thousands of followers
Priscillianist graves were oriented towards the east
Therefore it seems reasonable to suspect that the remains found by Pelayo the hermit and "authenticated" by Theodomir are those of Priscillian and two of his bishops.

(Oh and by the way, in the Museo das Peregrinaciones there are fragments of marble from Alexandria, dated late 4th century which were supposedly part of the original mausoleum.)
As ;ichael Caine would say: "Not a lot of people know that".

?

Of course it all a game, but if you think that the church will ever permit REAL scientific investigation, forget it. WAY too much to lose...! Just think: all those pilgrim footsteps going to pray at the grave of a "heretic" and witch! (Not)

Please do see http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.com
and
http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.blogspot.com

By the way, until recently it was possible to see another part of the west wall quite lost. These ruins were discovered because work was being done on Rua San Clemente. They drew and recorded all of it (including a spring which may have been used as a footwash for pilgrims coming from the west) They paved over it and made a nice little pavestone park with a very sanitised "fuente" in the middle., The ways of the Concello de Santiago de Compostela are mysterious indeed...

 

[methodist.pilgrim.98]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

As ever Matron Priscillian makes some interesting points.

Even if the bones turned out to be from the 4th century it would not prove anything. We know that the authorties hid the remains of St James so that Walter Rayleigh could not get his hands on them. Eventually the remains were "rediscovered." What if they had found Priscillian instead of St James? The saint is not in his crypt but he is still in his Cathedral.

My point being is that not even scientific evidence could put the authenticity of St James to a final conclusion.

Hope you had a good conference. Did you pitch your tent safely by the sea and is the leg ok? Both leg and you were prayed for.

 

[Priscillian]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Hey MP! How's it goin'
Conference was great fun. Jesus Jato and Tomas of Manjarin on the same platform joking about old times. Magic.
Yes, leg is OK but not overly pretty. Tent stayed in the trunk of the car (again!)though as the staff at the hospital in S de C were SCANDALISED when I went to have the stitches out!
But I did get to Touriñan (see blog post about it at http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.blogspot.com )

I like your comment that even if St. James is not in his crypt he is in his cathedral. I would certainly agree with that. I am actually quite fond of James and do have to apologise to him often. When in S de C I always go and give him a hug up in his penthouse. But to really have a word with the person I believe is there, I nip down to the basement for a quiet moment. He knows me, you see...

Nothing proved about the fourth century. True enough. But tantalising circumstantially, don't you agree?
Oh, BTW: It was El Draco - Sir Francis himself - what put the viento up the Spanish, not Sir Walter! But pirates are pretty well all indistinguishable from Captain Jack Sparrow anyway, aren't they... :wink:

 

[Priscillian]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

And thanks for the prayers. Very much appreciated. I am currently waiting for a number of things to happen that will affect me but are out of my hands, so if there are a couple more prayers spare...?

 

[methodist.pilgrim.98]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

When you are on a ship being shot at by an English pirate do you really care who the blighter is?

The guide who I heard at León cathedral telling a group about this dastardly man did say SFD. My memory is getting worse. Thank you for the correction.

Prayers have been offered this morning. Being in a place where matters are out of your hands is so stressful that it can make you feel ill. So peace and blessing be on you.

 

[RENSHAW]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Research for my book due to be releasd in 10 years time reveals the following -

If we say that that the stone boat was actually a sarcophagus and the angels were dicipiles and that Saint James was popular preaching Christianity on the Iberic Peninsular - then thats all I need - after all , most of us believe in GOD without Question!! - Me Gustar Santiago!! :mrgreen:

 

[methodist.pilgrim.98]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Walter Starkies seminal book, The Road to Santiago, suggests that St James was a failure in preaching the gospel in Spain. He made only 7 converts. :shock:

 

[Br. David]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

When VW introduced the Beetle to the UK in 1959 they set up dealerships, did all the advertising, thought they had people interested, then they sold exactly one in the first year.

Mustard seeds come to mind .... :wink:

 

[methodist.pilgrim.98]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Br David. James asked to sit at the right hand of Jesus because that would have made him great int he Kingdom of God. (For those not in the know, in Eastern lands the King's closest advisors sat on his left and his right aka Clegg and Osbourne to Cameron. They literally had the ear of the King and were not to be messed with).

In life James was a failure. Then he gets martyred. Then he gets brought ot Spain. Then pilgrims start walking to his tomb.

Pretty soon he is St James the Great, but he did it the hard way. He drank the cup of suffering. The way to greatness lies not in reflected glory, or sucking up, but by being willing to pay the price even if it seems you have failed.

The moral of the story? We do not know how history will remember us, nor what the consequences of our lives will be. We may live and die with a sense of failure but our lives have cast fruit on the flotasm that is history.

Uhhmm, Br David having looked at your photo and having done some maths, surely you don't personally remember the VW Beetle campaign? Read about it somewhere I guess?

 

[Priscillian]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Ooooh, Renshaw: the gauntlet is down eh? I warn you, talking back to Matron is not a good idea!
Sarcophagus - Yes, Disciples - Yes. Christianity in Spain in the early First Century: NO! James made at most 9 converts, including the two who are supposedly buried with him. And that is the way it stayed for a very, very long time.
So, the VW analogy doesn't work. I remember as a little girl in the UK being fascinated with my first Mercedes. You just DIDN´T buy German, even in 1959 (my father was German by the way - Prisoner of War who stayed and helped produce me!).
Nope - no evidence for St. James, big PR exercise for Alfonso el Casto (The Moors had their Prophet, you see; although I am sure he did believe it) and even more for Diego Gelmirez (who may not have done, but power is power and money is money).
But I look forward to reading your book though; so quit dissing Matron go do your homework!

http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.com
http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.blogspot.com

Methodist Pilgrim: Prayers MUCH appreciated and already starting to work. Thank you.
Oh, and MP, by the way, the MOST rain in Spain falls on Grazelema in the Provincia de Cadiz, one of my favourite places in the world. No kidding. Look it up.

 

[Br. David]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

I do just remember the campaign in '59, I was 11 then. :shock:

Hang on Matron - I'm fairly certain that St. James drove a VW beetle ... isn't there a statue somewhere with him in one? or is that st. Diesel?

anyway - my point, if it can even be called a point - was that from small beginnings etc.

remembering that lack of evidence isn't evidence of lack. Truth is, we don't know how many Christian converts there were in Spain in the late 1st century. Spain was a province of Rome, rich, sophisticated, civilised, with much trading on the eastern seaboard, as well as Jewish communities of the diaspora. They would have had continuous contact with the easterm Mediterranean (or 'Our Sea' as the Romans called it) - so, numbers? we just don't know. :wink:

 

[Priscillian]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

No, I'm pretty sure James drove a Santa Mercedes, though it could have been a SanTi Mondeo. But let's not polycarp about this any more.
You are right, there could have been any number of Christians in Roman Spain during the immediate diaspora after Christ's crucifixion. But Galicia was the very Ends of the Earth and very Pagan (still is: that's why I love it so much). So, no I stick to worshipers of Jupiter, Priscillianists, and Arians. By the 9th century, yes, Catholics but even then not all Roman. Compostela was Mozarabic until 1080.
Matron has to go and sort out the other dorms now. Sleep tight!

P.S. You guys! Opinions needed on my Post Camino threads dangerously teetering on three places. See MISCELLANEOUS, MUXIA AND FINISTERRE and POST CAMINO BLUES

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

I thought Jews were buried within 24 hours (except on the Sabbath). Why would James' body have been dragged across the sea to return to an alleged half-dozen converts?

 

[JohnnieWalker]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Falcon - the journey of the stone boat on the sea carrying James' body was instant. It was helped by angels so as soon as it set off it arrived. Duh...everybody knows that.

 

[RENSHAW]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

I thought Jews were buried within 24 hours (except on the Sabbath). Why would James' body have been dragged across the sea to return to an alleged half-dozen converts?

Mate!? Next thing you will say is that there is no Santa?

 

[grilly]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

historians and Biblical scholars who assert that James was the twin brother of Christ

Which Sarah Palin scholars are these?

 

[Br. David]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

NO SANTA? :shock:

"Polycarp on about things - ha ha ha! :lol:

(I agree with your post Matron) :wink:

 

[RENSHAW]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

NO SANTA? :shock:

"Polycarp on about things - ha ha ha! :lol:

(I agree with your post Matron) :wink:

The only way to cope with this is to head to dinner at the Cafe Iruna - I am sat outside with an Oroegoe Hierbies - the weather is amazing Guys - no jokes, I'm really here!

 

[Br. David]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Oh dear, I don't usually get jealous .. but ... lucky man!!

 

[Priscillian]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Tracy Saunders "Is Lovin' It!
Matron very definitely off duty. (Even Amazons get tired!) I've got a house to finance (?) miracles needed please) in Galicia so get your juvenile/masculine butts over to MISCELLANEOUS or FINISTERRE/MUXIA and please cheer me on!
Oh, and by the way, all Practical Ideas are very much welcomed. This house has my name over the lintel in BIG PURPLE NEON! (Which, if you live in Spain, I am hoping will NOT attract the wrong type of clientele; however, well, having a mortrgage to pay for ..?) It has had said name for over 18 months. The seller is a lovely lady who lost her husband of 35 years two years ago and wants to go back to Scotland where her grandchildren are.
This is the ONE FOR ME and I KNOW IT! It is TRUE PARADISE and I want to share it with you ....

http://www.headstartcentres.org (my therapy site. Not posted before)www.pilgrimagetoheresy.blogspot.com

 

[Priscillian]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Ah yes, I see it now. The Happy Heretic is bringing Harmony to this community Home.
The Christian Lion is lying down with the Priscillianist Lamb...
Love it!
That's the way future Pilgrimage WILL be.
(I am known as Cassandra on other Planets)
(You don't have to believe me...)
T

 

[Priscillian]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

OOOH. Only just caught this, MP:
"We know that the authorities hid the remains of St James so that "Walter Raleigh" could not get his hands on them. Eventually the remains were "rediscovered." "
Didn't notice what you had posted before (I am SLIPPING, but it's all these night rounds) but isn't this begging the question? They thought "St. James". Of course they did. But if not...?
It's a bit like the story of Diego Gelmirez who brought in a part of the skull for authentication (from Italy and probably bought. Sorry but I KNOW· DG by now): Fast forward a few centures (19th Century): Pistoia has a fragment of the skull., It matches ours. Ours is St. James. Therefore their must be St. James. Bingo., Ours is REALLY St. James.
Yippee.......
?????????
In the meantime the REAL influence of Christianity - albeit not Roman = Big Mistake - in the north of Spain is Priscillian. Why don't you know anything about this? Because the Roman church didn't want you to know any more than they wanted you to know about the Cathars! (Next book!)
Now I REALLY am going to bed. Good night etc. Even ;Matron has to sleep some time (but dont count on it, Sonny Jim!)

 

[Priscillian]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

P.S.
Renshaw:
You can't really be THAT ugly?
Be ready to set your soul free at La Casa de Las Conchas (formerly and always "The Little Fox House"). You are are welcome ANYTIME. TS

Comments welcome, very much welcome...

 

[crackmrmac]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

We may live and die with a sense of failure but our lives have cast fruit on the flotasm that is history.

I like that.

Buen Camino.

 

[fraluchi]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

In medieval times one of the reasons went to the shrines of the saints was that physical proximity to the bones made a difference. It was as if you were in the same room as they. If you were physically near they would be more likely to hear your prayers and interceed on your behalf with the Father.

Times haven't changed! One may debate on whether or not the bones (remains?) of St. James are truly buried in Santiago, fact is that even to-day many people (pilgrims?) feel to be "in the same room" and present their prayers to the apostle. Apostle, who after all is only an intermediary to propose our necessity to the Creator, our Father.
It's a fact that, when arriving at Santiago de Compostela, most visitors (pilgrims?) can feel a "connection" with the apostle and his Boss.

 

[PILGRIMSPLAZA]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

... back to theological discussion elsewhere...

Behind the dykes (= Holland) the discussion stopped on http://king-early-days.blogspot.com :

Summarized in a few paragraphs it all boils down to this:

"St. James was never converted to Christianity or Catholicism because it did not yet exist during his lifetime. James was and remained a faithful Jew for all his life, just like all apostles. He saw in Jesus the fulfillment of the prophecies about the coming of the Messiah in the Old Testament. Probably he felt even more a religious Jew than before he met Jesus. That most Jews did not share his opinion made no difference to that.

During his lifetime there were no Christians as we know them or a Christian church. Even Jesus did not mean to create a new religion. He preached in the synagogues and only after he was not accepted there he started to work outside the synagogues.

A Christian church as we know it arose only when Jews and followers from other nations and cultures formed communities and a hierarchical organization you can speak of a Christian church. But that was only after St. James and many other apostles had already died or were executed. Of course the apostles really were the founders of the Christian church. But they saw themselves not as Christians, but as Jews who had accepted the Messiah.

So they saw themselves not as converts, but as Jewish believers to whom Jesus had given a new dimension to the religion they and their ancestor always adhered." - GWE

xxx

Anyone for another nice debate on the Santiago Enigma > last post > last tabu ?
The hit count is speeding up to 10.000 and still no answer!
See miscellaneous-about-santiago/topic6601.html and the
new motto at the bottom of this page.

Brassa to all old and new friends!
Geerτ
http://pilgrimsplaza-pilgrimage-to-sant ... ogspot.com

 

[methodist.pilgrim.98]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Methodist Pilgrim: Prayers MUCH appreciated and already starting to work. Thank you.
Oh, and MP, by the way, the MOST rain in Spain falls on Grazelema in the Provincia de Cadiz, one of my favourite places in the world. No kidding. Look it up.

Matron, you should know by now that I DO NOT let facts stand in the way of a good story.

I also said "mainlY" which is not the definitive article>

On the whole I think I prefer Tracy over Matron

 

[RENSHAW]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

P.S.
Renshaw:
You can't really be THAT ugly?
Be ready to set your soul free at La Casa de Las Conchas (formerly and always "The Little Fox House"). You are are welcome ANYTIME. TS

Comments welcome, very much welcome...

Thanx Matron - I loved your site - how do you remember all those letters behind your name? .............and ......... That big house , how does that fit under that one tree? :mrgreen:

 

[Priscillian]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

It's only a little house. The tree is in your heart. It's where your spirit lives...

 

[Priscillian]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

I agree with Geert. And great to see him back! None of the followers of Jesus intended to proselytize a new religion called Christianity. Jesus wanted to reform a Jewish Church which had become corrupt, At least this is the way I see it. The Essenes were Jews, not Christians, and a lot of evidence says that Christ was an Essene.
Of course, along comes Paul and rattles the Jerusalem Church so maybe we have Paul to look to for introducing something called "Christianity" to the Gentiles; so it DOES become established in the first century.
Either way, although I do not believe that James is in the sarcophagus in Compostela, it is true that what one encounters there is the most important.
I am just the "mouthpiece" of Priscillian who deserves recognition as he was an extraordinary man and very much in tune with many of the things we are thinking about today.

 

[Br. David]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Steady now - there is no 'evidence' that Jesus was an Essene, only modern supposition by those who wish to create theories to fill a new book. The only connection that would work is that both he and they healed people. Yes, I know about the scrolls, personally I think that the 'liar' was referring to Paul, not our Yeshua.

Ah - Priscillian, that old Manichean heretic. I rather like the man too - a Mazda follower don't you think? And neccessarily a reincarnationist too.
His legacy has to be the Les Parfaits? Those poor people ... if you look at the OT god against the NT God it certainly does seem to be two different Gods. (I say no more - I can see the reactions already )

I do like synchronicity - I am drawn to les Parfaits as well and I have just bought myself a replacement copy of Montaillou - your interest in that area will have made this book known to you? The accidental preserving of the court records of the trial of the inhabitants of Montaillou for Cathar heresy? You can hear them speak - fascinating.

 

[Priscillian]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Yes, I have Montaillou right here. I am re-reading it as these people will become part of The Dove and the Yellow Cross (La Paloma y La Cruz Amarilla) the book I am working on now. I think that the BonHommes MUST have been influenced by Priscillian. Otto Rahn (also part of the new book) writes that there is a wood near Montsegur called le fôret Priscilien (which I HAVE to go and find!). The views of the Cathars were in place long before there was any contact with the Bogomils, (first mention is about 1140) but so far Rahn is the only person I have found to agree with me!
No "evidence" of course. There never will be will there. The Roman Church wiped out all vestiges of Priscillianism and the King of France and the Pope did the same with the Crusade Against the Heretic Cathars. Oh, we have a lot written about them, but all of it by the inquisitors. It's like asking the Gestapo to tell us about Judaeism!
And I concede your point about the "evidence" that Jesus was an Essene, but there is not generally smoke without fire ...?
(Yes, I believe Paul may have been the "Wicked Priest", but wicked from whose point of view? The Essenes. Who was the Teacher of Righteousness? Some say James the brother of Jesus. Hmmm?)

 

[Br. David]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

d'accord :wink:

 

[methodist.pilgrim.98]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Listening to Br David and Priscillian I now realise I studied the wrong period of church history while at Univeristy. Damn. :cry:

 

[RENSHAW]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Listening to Br David and Priscillian I now realise I studied the wrong period of church history while at Univeristy. Damn. :cry:

Hey Bud , You and I are Light Years behind these guys , at least I am - Am I now allowed To mention MITHRA , celebrated on the 25 December or would that really put the boot in ? :mrgreen:

 

[Priscillian]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Mithras ... Please do! Maybe another thread?
And to both of you: I studied philosophy, linguistics, and psychology at university. Have Master's in all three. But I've never taken a history class (post grammar school - and then I hated it!) in my life.
This is all pure passion (and more than a little bit of Priscillian too! He just won't leave me be).
TS

 

[grilly]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Yes, it is a beautiful experience to pray in the crypt. I had the opportunity to participate in Mass there early one morning, and then to stand and pray beside the silver reliquary for some time.
I've always thought that this "linkage" is also what is so compelling about the Camino, to those who consider themselves as "non religious". Not the praying, but the walking with the multitudes of "believers" who walked previously. That is what I think touches the eternal spirit, within each modern peregrino.

YES !

 

[TerryB]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

I have just got hold of the definitive work on Priscillian "Priscillian of Avila: Occult and the Charismatic in the Early Church". It is by Henry Chadwick one-time Dean of Christ Church, Oxford and Regius Professor of Divinity, author of "The Early Church" which I read as part of my theological studies. He says in his final chapter :-

" . . . .here (under the nave of the cathedral in Compostela) were buried Christians who desired to be interred in proximity to some holy man. Without any document or inscription it is impossible to say who that holy man was. Was he Priscillian? The question cannot be answered on present evidence. But Compostela is in the right region for his shrine . . . ."

I was lucky and got a first edition (1976 hardback) for £14.80 including postage in the U.K. from a seller on Amazon.
I will post more when I have read the book (I have a nasty habit of reading the end first!!!)

Blessings
Terry

 

[PILGRIMSPLAZA]

Another question: Which Priscillian, Priscilien or Briciljan

Was he Priscillian?

Just found a few exciting texts:

In http://www.champagnat.org/en/210601001.htm - search: Priscilien:
e) The shrine of Br François
It was in 1924 when his body was brought to the chapel.
f) The relics of St Priscilien
In front of the tomb of Fr François we have the remains of St Priscilien, a martyr of the fourth century. This is due to the reopening and discovering of the Catacombs in Rome in the XIXth century. Monsignor Épalle, who had been one of the first pupils of Fr Champagnat, brought them from Rome and gave them to the house of L’Hermitage.

In http://mitchtestone.blogspot.com/2008_1 ... chive.html - search: Priscilien:
The forest around the legendary castle of Muntsalvaesche was called Briciljan. Near Montsegur is a small forest called the Priscilien Wood. [ 42°52′20″N 1°50′03″E ]

Is this Priscillian or Priscilien or Briciljan ‘our’ Priscillian of Ávila, Trier, Mondoñedo and/or SdC?

 

[Priscillian]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Geert writes: Is this Priscillian or Priscilien or Briciljan ‘our’ Priscillian of Ávila, Trier, Mondoñedo and/or SdC?

There is no doubt that Priscillianism "infested" (to use the Roman Catholic expression for the Priscillianist heresy) not just the north of Spain (and much of the country as far as Cordoba), but the areas of southern France where the Cathars were later exterminated. Priscillianism reached into northern Italy. It was a threat to the recently created Official Roman Church (Catholic means Universal, remember, and that was how Rome wanted it to be - NO exceptions!) and something clearly had to be done about it. Priscillian was accused of "heresy and witchcraft" and decapitated with 6 of his followers, including Euchrotia, a woman.
"Hairesis" means choice. As to witchcraft, if Priscillian was a Bruja then it was in the way he included local custom within his ministry. (Praying barefoot in a farmer's field was witchcraft). That, no doubt, was one of the reasons why he became so popular. There were no churches, no hierarchy: they met in one anothers' houses, caves, woods in the countryside. Women as well as men were entitled to speak and preach.
Sound like the Cathars to you???
Henry Chadwick's Priscillian of Avila was my bible! I stayed slavishly to his story of Priscillian as much as I could because there was virtually nothing else in English. Even then, I had to wait two years for my copy. On my website now, the second greatest number of readers I get - after the Home page - is to Who was Priscillian? When I first began my reseach in 2000, there was virtually nothing on the Internet except in German, and what little there was in English had all been taken from the Catholic Encyclopaedia. Need I say more...?
I believe in this man. I believe he and his followers (as with the Cathars) were treated abominably! His message is completely contemporary; it has a lot to say to us today in a time when we are starved for spiritual guidance we can trust. As to the charges of Manichaeism, there certainly are similarities. But Priscillian was NOT a follower of Mani and therein hangs the most important point. Priscillianism was a Christian message much closer to that of the Arians who were tolerant of it.

As to Geert's other point, no. This cannot be "our" Priscillian. I once wrote to a priest in the UK asking if these two were the same and when was "St" Priscillian's Day. He was scandalised! So, no. Two Priscillians. Priscillian of Avila would never have been buried in a Catholic church.

I believe it is he in the crypt in Compostela, as you all know. I am not alone in this. Many Spaniards (including some well known writers) and most Gallegos will agree with me. When exploring the excavations under the cathedral, I spoke with a lovely man from near Padron. I asked him if he thought Priscillian might be buried in the tomb. His answer: "Soy Gallego!" as if that said everything I needed to know... The surrounding graves are - other than the Roman pagan ones in the temple of Jupiter - of the late 4th century. Priscillian's time.
Tracy Saunders
http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.com
http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.blogspot.com

 

[PILGRIMSPLAZA]

... but then ... who was the Priscilien from Montsegur?

This cannot be "our" Priscillian.

Thank you, Tracy, you've made my day! Now I am really happy to be back on our big Forum! But... one little question remains: who then was Priscilien after whom a small wood near Montsegur was mentioned?
Anyone?
Geerτ

http://gofrance.about.com/od/photogalle ... urtour.htm
http://gofrance.about.com/od/photogalle ... tour_2.htm
http://gofrance.about.com/od/photogalle ... tour_5.htm
A view of the Montsegur village from Mount Pog.
http://gofrance.about.com/od/photogalle ... tour_6.htm
The inside of Montsegur Chateau, where hundreds of Cathars resisted attack.

 

[TerryB]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

(Praying barefoot in a farmer's field was witchcraft). That, no doubt, was one of the reasons why he became so popular.

I have never prayed barefoot but have prayed 'in a farmer's field' in the U.K. at rogationtide for many years. The precarious livelihood of folk in the 4th C. would mean that the 'blessing of crops' was seen as a vital part of agriculture. No division then between science and religion! Priscillian knew how to 'connect' with the common people, which fact is often treated with suspicion by the church hierarchy, even today!
I fully agree that the remains of Priscillian of Avila would not have ended up in the Christian catacombs in Rome. According to Chadwick, it would seem that the bodies of the 'Martyrs of Trier' were recovered and taken to Spain for burial "which seems to have been somewhere in Galicia". The ancient sources he quotes would support that view, although the site of his tomb is not known.

Blessings
Terry

 

[Br. David]

Re: are St. James' relics really held in Santiago's cathedral

Rather fond of poor Priscilian but was he so different from Manichaean beliefs - yes, a Catholic but different with that leaning. Two Bishops who were followers of his teachings were denounced by Rome for 'Manachaeism' - so far in the past, so many documents lost, so many lies told, so much spin by the Rome.

As for being relevant to today - not too sure, the cult of the 'Me' tends to mean accepting beliefs that already agree with what people like doing, (I know a woman who drums for fifteen minutes a day, another woman who chants for ten minutes a day for some reason - something to do with their belief that they become "better people" and are "helping the world" :roll: ) so a deeply ascetic lifestyle that includes celibacy, vegetarianism, and being tee-total may not be too happily adopted - just a point of view :wink: