Barbara
Veteran Member
- Time of past OR future Camino
- Since 2000 French and Spanish, bikes and walking
They do. It's called a private room. You too have this option if you don't wish to hear them.
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They do. It's called a private room. You too have this option if you don't wish to hear them.I appreciate there would be some logistical problems, and it would be voluntary, but I think there's some merit to the idea. There are some people that snore every night, all night, and do so loudly. Personally, if I was that person I'd feel very guilty any time I booked a bed in a dorm room, knowing full well that I'm about to ruin the sleep for every other person in that room. Those people should have an option for sleeping somewhere that won't ruin everyone's sleep.
I tried earplugs, but some snorers are simply too loud. All I could do in those cases was blast music in my earbuds, but once the music ended the snoring was back...
You may be pleased to know that this did not occur on the camino, just a dorm in Jerusalem many years ago. It was way grosser than you can imagine.Wow, this really is not ok! Did anyone complain? Is there any system in place where other Albergues on the route can be warned about problematic people like this?
Getting a private room is not always a guarantee of quiet and the chance for a good night's sleep. I shall always remember one night in an inexpensive pension in Burgos. A couple returned from a late night out, clacking over the wooden floor and arguing energetically. They made so much noise that they woke the baby one of them was carrying, which began to howl. They banged the door of a nearby room and continued their conversation.They do. It's called a private room. You too have this option if you don't wish to hear them.
But all snorers together increases the decibels that will then reverberate through the whole albergue lol. Snoring is just part of the Camino like hills and heat and rain it ain't going away. I snore so after my first Camino, realising how bad it was for those around me, I severely reduced the amount of wine with dinner. Alcohol makes me snore worse than usual, or so my wife saysI would have loved to come across an albergue that grouped pilgrims according to their whether or not they snore. Snorers all go in one room, non-snorers in another. What's wrong with this idea?
I would have loved to come across an albergue that grouped pilgrims according to their whether or not they snore. Snorers all go in one room, non-snorers in another. What's wrong with this idea?
Absolutely not funny.Why stop there? Can't we have "Stage Towns" for snorers and different stage towns for non-snorers. Let's keep them all 10k apart!
Jim ( running for the exit! )
Still not funny
Still not funny
So true. I recently stayed in a private room at a place where there was no dormitory. It was close to the common room and an adjacent private room, both sources of vigorous discussion well into the evening.Getting a private room is not always a guarantee of quiet and the chance for a good night's sleep.
Peter,Still not funny
I totaly agree with you. It makes sense. Its difficult not to feel resentfull towards your pilgrim snoring neighbour who wakes up full of the joys of spring after a lovely long deep sleep when you have spent the night staring into the dark.I would have loved to come across an albergue that grouped pilgrims according to their whether or not they snore. Snorers all go in one room, non-snorers in another. What's wrong with this idea?
I find it very disappointing that anyone who is engaging in this thread at this stage thinks that this was a good idea. I have already expressed my thoughts on this many times on this forum. @Pikolina, you might want to read why I think this is an odious suggestion here in this thread. The short version is that I think it is completely unethical to suggest someone else take any action they might not wish to undertake to ensure your comfort. You, and you alone, are responsible for that, and if you find it that uncomfortable sharing an albergue dormitory with others who might snore, it is up to you to move, not them.I totaly agree with you. It makes sense. Its difficult not to feel resentfull towards your pilgrim snoring neighbour who wakes up full of the joys of spring after a lovely long deep sleep when you have spent the night staring into the dark.
It puts a new slant on that phrase, 'get a grip'!!Get a grip…?
Thanks for sharing your opinion on this topic. I’m also enjoying the contrary opinions that others are sharing. Always great to hear a wide range of thoughts on a topic like this.I find it very disappointing that anyone who is engaging in this thread at this stage thinks that this was a good idea. I have already expressed my thoughts on this many times on this forum. @Pikolina, you might want to read why I think this is an odious suggestion here in this thread. The short version is that I think it is completely unethical to suggest someone else take any action they might not wish to undertake to ensure your comfort. You, and you alone, are responsible for that, and if you find it that uncomfortable sharing an albergue dormitory with others who might snore, it is up to you to move, not them.
I snored here at home recently because I was flat on my back.I would have loved to come across an albergue that grouped pilgrims according to their whether or not they snore. Snorers all go in one room, non-snorers in another. What's wrong with this idea?
This is interesting, but probably of more value for your albergue neighbours to know each night.I snored here at home recently because I was flat on my back.
So, if I do that in a dorm room please gently roll me on my side and whisper “good night” in my ear. I don’t think that’s a lot to ask.
I think that if you want to do that, you should tell the people sleeping near you that it’s ok for you. I think it’s very bad advice to suggest to people that they routinely touch people to wake them up, gently or not, when they are snoring.So, if I do that in a dorm room please gently roll me on my side and whisper “good night” in my ear. I don’t think that’s a lot to ask.
To make sure that you stay on your side when sleeping buy a large claw style hair clip and clip to to the middle of the back of the shirt that you sleep in. It will be an uncomfortable and instant reminder to roll back onto your side.I snored here at home recently because I was flat on my back.
So, if I do that in a dorm room please gently roll me on my side and whisper “good night” in my ear. I don’t think that’s a lot to ask.
I thought they were jokingI think that if you want to do that, you should tell the people sleeping near you that it’s ok for you. I think it’s very bad advice to suggest to people that they routinely touch people to wake them up, gently or not, when they are snoring.
I thought they were joking
Agree!!!Oh, sorry! But I have seen that suggested before, and if you watch Álvaro’s video you will see that it happened to him twice in one night!
Just so we all aggree that unwanted physical touchings are not a good idea.
As disgusting as this is, I’ve never laughed so hard at a post!I stayed in a dorm once upon a time where the guy in the bunk below me masturbated quite loudly to put himself to sleep (he snored as well but that reassured me he was asleep). The entire bed creaked and squeaked in addition to his groaning. Sadly, he had to get up to use the toilet a few times in the night and every time, had to masturbate to fall asleep again.
It became funny in a bizarre way when he started yelling at the two young guys who were having a whispered conversation on the other side of the room, and then he went at it again.
If you think snoring is bad, get a grip. It could be worse.
Sorry, Peter, but you may be the odd one out here. It's definitely funny.Still not funny
Odious? Unethical?The short version is that I think it is completely unethical to suggest someone else take any action they might not wish to undertake to ensure your comfort. You, and you alone, are responsible for that,
I think this was started as a lighthearted thread, not so much complaining but discussing something most pilgrims have struggled with at some point or another.What I really don't understand is all the serious complaints about albergue living.
Not really. If you can propose a framework in which it is ethical for one individual to suggest to another in the circumstances of an albergue dormitory 'your snoring bothers me, and I demand you pay for a private room so I can be comfortable', then I will re-consider my position on this.Odious? Unethical?
Strong words, and a bit over the top. To suggest that someone consider how their behaviour affects others is simple consideration and good manners. OTOH, to say to everyone, "If what I'm doing bothers you...well that's your problem. Deal with it." - well, a lot of what's wrong in the world comes from that attitude that constantly puts ME over you.
C'mon, Doug.Not really. If you can propose a framework in which it is ethical for one individual to suggest to another in the circumstances of an albergue dormitory 'your snoring bothers me, and I demand you pay for a private room so I can be comfortable', then I will re-consider my position on this.
To suggest that someone consider how their behaviour affects others is simple consideration and good manners.
I'm not saying we shouldn't deal with our own reactivity. Certainly we all must do that. But it's both. Thinking of others, taking care of ourselves.
Plenty.What's wrong with this idea?
We had a cousin stay at our house once who was an apnea snorer. He literally vibrated the floor of our bedroom. I can't imagine being in a bunk bed with him. Perhaps it was the vibration bothering her??I admit to snoring occasionally. A couple of days ago I was in the bottom bunk and a slightly younger woman was in the top bunk.
When she first walked in and saw me on the bottom bunk she gave me a bad look and I wondered what that was about?
Later that night I woke up to a thumping sound. I was a bit puzzled, then I noticed that the woman above me seemed to be kicking the bed, vigorously! So vigorously that I thought that she was going to fall out of bed.
Weird. I wondered if perhaps she had cramp but it stopped and so I drifted back to sleep.
Later, I again woke up to the thumping, drifted back to sleep and again wakened.
I lay there wondering if I should ask her if she needed help, then half drifted off to sleep and heard myself snore and immediately the thumping restarted and so I figured that this is what was happening.
I went to sleep and eventually started snoring and she would start thumping until I woke up and then the cycle repeated. Meanwhile the other people in the room were also snoring but that didn't seem to trigger her, only me snoring.
The night proceeded in this fashion. I did get some sleep but not a lot but somehow I doubt that the woman got any sleep at all. She was so focused on detecting my snoring and waking me up by jumping up and down and kicking her mattress that she must have been absolutely exhausted the next day.
If she had just ignored me we would have both got a lot more sleep.
They wereI thought they were joking
How about all the stinky feet people in one room!? We’re a community… wear ear plugs and eye mask and get over it.I would have loved to come across an albergue that grouped pilgrims according to their whether or not they snore. Snorers all go in one room, non-snorers in another. What's wrong with this idea?
Agreed.I appreciate there would be some logistical problems, and it would be voluntary, but I think there's some merit to the idea. There are some people that snore every night, all night, and do so loudly. Personally, if I was that person I'd feel very guilty any time I booked a bed in a dorm room, knowing full well that I'm about to ruin the sleep for every other person in that room. Those people should have an option for sleeping somewhere that won't ruin everyone's sleep.
I tried earplugs, but some snorers are simply too loud. All I could do in those cases was blast music in my earbuds, but once the music ended the snoring was back...
What about those who talk in their sleep, other uncontrolled bodily noises smells etc? Tossing and turning?I appreciate there would be some logistical problems, and it would be voluntary, but I think there's some merit to the idea. There are some people that snore every night, all night, and do so loudly. Personally, if I was that person I'd feel very guilty any time I booked a bed in a dorm room, knowing full well that I'm about to ruin the sleep for every other person in that room. Those people should have an option for sleeping somewhere that won't ruin everyone's sleep.
I tried earplugs, but some snorers are simply too loud. All I could do in those cases was blast music in my earbuds, but once the music ended the snoring was back...
CPAP disturbs my sleep whereas snorers do not.And a CPAP replaces snoring with a gentle white noise that actually helps many go to sleep!
On my 2014 on the Aragonés, two extremely pushy peregrinas sternly warned me that if I dared to snore, they would aggressively poke me awake.It's funny because when I did the Camino and overnighted in Orison, the worst snorer in the room was a woman whom I thought might bring the roof down with the depth & volume of her snores.... and she had the hide to get up in the morning and complain about the snoring!! My point is that a lot of people don't think they are snorers.
It’s not so black and white. Some snorers are deep sleepers and others are not. Believe it or not it’s the people who don’t get their packs ready night before and or the ones that don’t even try to be quiet when getting ready that keeps people from getting sleep. Oh and let’s not forget about the late night readers or in the middle of the night potty people that have their bright phone lights on and waking others up. So you see, not so black and white. Ear plugs help!I would have loved to come across an albergue that grouped pilgrims according to their whether or not they snore. Snorers all go in one room, non-snorers in another. What's wrong with this idea?
Nope. Once you are rudely awakened, you're awake. Just saying, not supporting snorers dorms. No one is required to sleep in albergues, and sensitive sleepers can choose other options like private rooms or industrial ear protection. Another one of life's many injustices.Nope, just the excessively loud snorers. The other disturbances you've mentioned are minor and short-lived.
This might be true for some small number of very severe apnoea sufferers, but having checked this with my sleep physician, not using my CPAP is unlikely to have long term impacts if I return to using it when I get home. While I do carry one, it clearly isn't going to be life-threatening not to do so.Also, if you are a person that has sleep apnea, please bring your/a machine. It will save your life and your Camino will be much more enjoyable, especially for those that stay awake with worry or annoyance.
reading about your dad reminded me of my dad He snored incredibly loud. When he fell asleep on the couch he would stop snoring and stop breathing. My brother and i would sometimes get worried after a minute and wake him up. He would get up look at us and promptly fall asleep, snoring. Ha! Probably apnea, but this was the 70s.On my 2014 on the Aragonés, two extremely pushy peregrinas sternly warned me that if I dared to snore, they would aggressively poke me awake.
I just stared at them and said nothing.
Continued reading my book.
Within 15-20 minutes, both were snoring pretty loudly !!
Didn't matter -- THE absolute worst snorer I have ever encountered was my dad ; though one photo-finish second worst was at Sarria last year. Only one apart from my dad whose snores were disturbing 2 floors down ; and that was in my own isolated room.
Some people are victims. No matter what side they align with!Not really. If you can propose a framework in which it is ethical for one individual to suggest to another in the circumstances of an albergue dormitory 'your snoring bothers me, and I demand you pay for a private room so I can be comfortable', then I will re-consider my position on this.
More, having been subjected to similar discriminatory treatment on my first Camino, I will also stand by my view that it is odious. While it might not have originally been intended to be so unpleasant, it quickly became evident that I was the only one upholding the arrangements that would allow me to get uninterrupted sleep at the same time as those in the dormitory. Later, it also became evident that the many of those who had pledged they were not snorers and remained in the dormitory were untruthful about that.
The net result was that removing one snorer from the dormitory did not eliminate the problem and one person, me, was subjected to what I can only describe as demeaning treatment by both other pilgrims and a hospitalero who had not adequately thought through what arrangements were needed so that everyone was treated equally and fairly. Overall, the hospitalero had achieved a worse outcome than if they had not interfered.
My husband is one of those. He now uses a Cpap, but lived in denial of his epic snoring for years (more then 40 years) . He claimed that everyone was exaggerating.Snoring can be one of the first indications. Not all snoring is dangerous to the health, but a lot of the epic snorers in albergues have the kind of snoring where you stop breathing. I feel sorry for them rather than condemning them...
Don't forget the boisterous midnight farters...and a separate room for the early morning bag rustlers, and those who like to walk in the dark and disturb everyone when they leave, and those who come back late a little merry, and those that go to the loo in the middle of the night.....will be one heck of an Alberque !
Could this be a question to create responses for the fun of it?I would have loved to come across an albergue that grouped pilgrims according to their whether or not they snore. Snorers all go in one room, non-snorers in another. What's wrong with this idea?
If we have a special room for each category of person who makes a noise or smell or sight that offends other people, we would end up with private rooms for every body. Errr, right. As you were!Could this be a question to create responses for the fun of it?
If so, here we go. Maybe we should also consider separating the following from those who demand peace and quiet: bag rustlers, early risers, mobile phone light users, mobile phone alarm users, smelly feet, farters and people who get up to go to the toilet at night.
It's all a part of the pilgrim experience, it's not as if you have to get up in the morning and look after children, go to work etc. There are also earplugs and eyemasks that can be used without too much difficulty.
Is that not segregation??I would have loved to come across an albergue that grouped pilgrims according to their whether or not they snore. Snorers all go in one room, non-snorers in another. What's wrong with this idea?
If they go elsewhere....is this not segregation?Is that not segregation??
Who is going to point the finger at someone who snores?
Maybe people who are 'offended' by someone snoring should go elsewhere?
That's called a hotel.If we have a special room for each category of person who makes a noise or smell or sight that offends other people, we would end up with private rooms for every body. Errr, right. As you were!
Utilitarianism would suggest exactly that. Deontology and virtue ethics you could argue either way.Not really. If you can propose a framework in which it is ethical for one individual to suggest...
From whose perspective? Certainly not that of any snorer.Utilitarianism would suggest exactly that.
From whose perspective? Certainly not that of any snorer.
For sure,in my opinionI find it very disappointing that anyone who is engaging in this thread at this stage thinks that this was a good idea. I have already expressed my thoughts on this many times on this forum. @Pikolina, you might want to read why I think this is an odious suggestion here in this thread. The short version is that I think it is completely unethical to suggest someone else take any action they might not wish to undertake to ensure your comfort. You, and you alone, are responsible for that, and if you find it that uncomfortable sharing an albergue dormitory with others who might snore, it is up to you to move, not them.
Indeed, and it is used to justify many of the measures that are taken at by governments in particular at some societal level. Tax laws that discriminate based on level of income might be the most obvious example of some people paying more for the overall benefit for society in the redistribution of income through any welfare payments it enables. There is no such equivalence to government in the specific case we are discussing. Rather, there are a few vocal proponents who seem to think that it is a good idea to banish snorers for their own comfort with little consideration for the wider ramifications for that.But as an ethical framework it makes very clear how it can be ethically right for an individual to make sacrifices - or be compelled to make sacrifices! - for the greater benefit of others.
That is such a massive understatement of the harms that it almost looks like you are proposing this statement as a strawman, rather than make any realistic assessment of the loss of utility. No snorer deprives a roomful of people from sleep. One would need to test the proposition that even those few who claim to have had no sleep are actually being realistic about such claims. It always appears to me that, while they might have this impression, it is potentially a massive overstatement of what actually happened. More, the effect of just separating those who know they snore is likely to be quite minimal. As others have more eloquently expressed than I will now, this will still leave those who either don't know or aren't prepared to admit that they snore.In this case the harms are minor, but arguably there is some harm in depriving a roomful of people of sleep on one hand, and a little (hurt feelings, cost) on the other.
I wouldn't be so sure of yourself there, Doug.No snorer deprives a roomful of people from sleep
You seem to be one of the more vocal people here, @dougfitz, and my impression is that you're still lugging around a grievance about how you've been treated.Rather, there are a few vocal proponents who seem to think that it is a good idea to banish snorers for their own comfort with little consideration for the wider ramifications for that.
Who pays for that seems to be the nub of the issue for you, Doug. What's wrong with magnanimity, if it's possible and affordable? If not it's a moot point.those who achieve any benefit from separating themselves from the snorers ought to be the ones that pay for this. It is not a privilege owed to them in albergue dormitory rooms, but one they should pay for by using a private room.
Focusing so much on the people involved, we never thought of this, and it's a good idea.I wonder if some sound deadening material on walls and ceilings would actually be more helpful? Some dorm rooms seem to amplify sound rather well.
Hi @JifMooseActually, just for fun it's interesting (to me at least - feel free to tell me to can it!) to see if we can make the argument either way based on the major ethical frameworks. I think this really does show how these provide a clear language to express differences:
I'm slow, sorry.often try to apply the ‘veil of ignorance’ to inform my thinking, along the lines of - If I didn’t know my own circumstances, what would I think was just, fair etc.
Hi VN. I don’t describe it well. But, yes, it’s the idea of taking yourself out of the equation. One often cited example is how would you design a taxation system if you didn’t know where you fell on the wealth and income scale.I'm slow, sorry.
Meaning, you complete remove yourself from the equation, looking at it impartiality as an outside observer? Is that what you mean, @Pelerina?
If so, that sounds like a wonderful way to access balance and equanimity. And so wise action.
NoIf they go elsewhere....is this not segregation?
Wow…it was just a friendly suggestion. I really don’t care. It’s your life and your comfort. It Doesn’t affect me one bit. Just informing those that weren’t aware at the ease of carrying one, if they were considering not walking because of it.This might be true for some small number of very severe apnoea sufferers, but having checked this with my sleep physician, not using my CPAP is unlikely to have long term impacts if I return to using it when I get home. While I do carry one, it clearly isn't going to be life-threatening not to do so.
The short term impact is that I will snore and my sleep will be disrupted. I will join the other 40% of men who snore, and 25% of women who snore. Your, and others, comfort and convenience is unlikely to be affected by my decision not to bring a CPAP. Given my previous experience, I don't consider it a relevant factor in deciding whether or not to carry my CPAP.
I have said before that there is only one circumstance where I would definitely take my CPAP, and that is where my wife chose to walk as well. It would make both of us more comfortable, and we would be able to load balance the extra weight of the CPAP. I doubt the many random pilgrims who want us CPAP users to carry our machines to make their camino more enjoyable would be willing to walk with us even for a few kilometres sharing the extra load we might carry for their comfort.
I don't claim to speak for all CPAP users, but I will continue to put the position that there are members posting here that do not seem to have considered this question in any wider context than their own comfort and convenience. And I will continue to suggest this isn't the most appropriate analytical framework to use when considering the merits of their proposals to have others do things for that. Few seem to consider that it is up to them to ensure their own comfort, and that it isn't primarily a collective responsibility we all share.
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