Addressing an ordained person

[tyrrek]

Hi All!

Sorry if the same question has been posted twice, but the site seemed to crash just as I pressed 'submit'.

I speak reasonable Spanish, but don't know how to address priests/nuns/monks directly. Do you say, for example, 'Hola Padre/Hermana/Hermano' as you would in English?

And what if you know their name? Is it 'Hola Padre Juan' or 'Hola Padre Garcia-Martinez'?

In the UK it all tends to be a bit informal 'Hello Father John', but I think our standards may have slipped more than elsewhere.

Buenos Caminos!

 

[Lydia Gillen]

Not too sure what is expected in Spain.

Here I tend to address my parish priest as Richard, except when I am having a row with him and then I say "With respect Father"

 

[tyrrek]

Not too sure what is expected in Spain.

Here I tend to address my parish priest as Richard, except when I am having a row with him and then I say "With respect Father"

Ha ha! I imagine you know each other well, Lydia. I was just reminded of the mass at Los Arcos where the priest invites all the pilgrims down after the mass to get a prayer card. I just said 'Gracias Padre' not knowing what else to say and I'm sure it didn't cause offence (as the term is used in the US army etc), but I wasn't sure if it was correct.

But then there are the nuns at the albergue in Carrion. Personally, I just felt that calling them 'hermana' might be wrong so I didn't make any reference to their status. That may be fine (and I'm sure it's normal) but I'd like to do things properly when possible.

Buen Camino!

 

[sulu]

The locals here call the parish priest by his christian name, I doubt that that would be good form if you don't know him. I would stick to 'Padre', at least he won't take offence, and 'hermana' or 'hermano' is fine for nuns and monks. They can always say if they prefer something less formal. Fo example the Parish priest in Mosteiro, on the VdlP, goes for the less formal.

Personally I would also go for Usted as well but this seems to be becoming less used. I had a discussion with a spaniard the other day because he addressed an elderly lady as Usted one day and tu another day, he didn't seem to know he had done it :? I reckon, as foreigners we are probably better to be too formal than not formal enough, on the other hand I always use 'tu' to other pilgrims, only some of the french seem to have a problem with that.
Sue

 

[JohnnieWalker]

The convention in Spain seems to be for priests: Don First Name - or Padre First Name

Similarly for monks - many of whom are priests and not brothers. They will correct you if they wish.

Nuns - Hermana.

I always use Usted unless they "Tu" me then I reciprocate in that form. I suspect many expect always to be Usted

 

[tyrrek]

Thank you all. It's not something that keeps me awake at night, but it's a bit like when you go to the doctor and you leave saying 'Thank you Doctor' rather than just 'Thank you'. Maybe I'm just showing my age!

Buen 'ecclesiastically aware' Camino!

 

[Stephen Nicholls]

If you know the guy well, just his Christian name is fine. If you greet someone you don't know well, then "Buenas dias, padre!" [in the morning] is fine. That's what I used for eight years when I lived in N/E Spain [and was an assistant pastor in a church there].

Buen camino!
Stephen.
http://www.calig.co.uk/camino_de_santiago.htm

 

[sulu]

Just to confuse matters can anyone enlighten me as to the use of 'Sor'? As in Sor Angelica!

 

[tyrrek]

Just to confuse matters can anyone enlighten me as to the use of 'Sor'? As in Sor Angelica!

Gosh! That's a new one on me. Is it written and/or spoken? I Imagine it would be an abbreviation of Senora.

Buen Camino!

 

[SabsP]

Sor as in soeur ( fr ) as in sister = female religious person : catholic nun. So for example Saint Theresa of Avila was a " sor " before she became a saint...But not every sor will be a Saint after her death...;-)

 

[tyrrek]

I stand corrected. Gosh, I hope nobody meets a Bishop, Cardinal or Mother Superior. That could turn into a linguistic nightmare! Buen Camino!

 

[SabsP]

double post

 

[SabsP]

And of course aside from a sor there are also " hermanas " like Jonhie said...will check into the difference... Might have something to do with the kind of convents / religious orders they belong to....
All in all : I only met very nice sisters/ hermanas on the Camino ( not at all the like the sisters of my old school, the Sisters of the Holy Sepulchre...grr...), especially the sisters of the albergue of Espiritu Santo ( Hijas de la Caridad ) in Carrion de los Condes....
To be sure I will always address older people and religious persons in Spain with Usted...just to be sure...

 

[David]

It used to be, in England, ... Roman Catholic - Father or father + name.
CoE - first time reverend + name, then just name afterwards ...

there are subtleties ... if you are calling for attention it is their title.

Friars, monks, and nuns? - brother and sister. Mind you, calling everyone you don't know brother or sister is rather pleasant.

... what it is now? seems to be rather more fluid, but I too am of an older generation ... it would take years of friendship before I could address a Roman priest by his name alone .. and even then ...

for Spain? I go for formality every time, they have earned respect, don't you think?

 

[tyrrek]

Yes, I think there is a distinction between nuns (cloistered) and sisters (teachers, nurses etc) but I may be wrong. It's a minefield . I think they're all addressed as sister/hermana though?

They are lovely in Carrion, and hosted by nuns/sisters everyone behaves themselves.

Buen Camino!

 

[Sagalouts]

Coming from a country were you address people as love/pal/our kid if in Yorkshire,my lover in Devon-mi duck in Derby-bonnie lass-hen-darling-boy-master-big man in other parts.
being from Yorkshire when leaving my female doctors last week I said "thanks love" she raised her eyebrows and said "thats quite alright".
the landed gentry,kings and queens go by their last name only-once took a phone call from a chap calling himself "Coke" would not leave his first name,turned out he was the Earl of something or other.

the point I'm trying to make is I always treat people with respect until shown different-I have walked with quite a few ordained people and one retired/unfrocked guy from the USA and chatted to a few nuns.once walked with a good man from Australia-shared drinks and laughs and after one week he told me he was a priest -my attitude to him changed -he was so angry with me.
"David said go for formality every time,they have earned respect don't you think" sorry David but I disagree,by their deeds ect-ask the 1 in 4 group in Ireland if they have earned it?
Ian

 

[vagabondette]

"David said go for formality every time,they have earned respect don't you think " sorry David but I disagree

I agree with you. People get the default respect I'd give any other human being until they prove they deserve more/less. Those who are older than I am are senor/a. People younger than I am are amig@. Elderly people I'll call Don/a. Perhaps it comes from working with a lot of very powerful people who assume I'll bow and scrape just because of their title, but in my eyes, all are the same until they prove otherwise.

 

[JohnnieWalker]

I speak reasonable Spanish, but don't know how to address priests/nuns/monks directly. Do you say, for example, 'Hola Padre/Hermana/Hermano' as you would in English?

I've always found addressing the clergy with "what would you like to drink?" goes down very well

 

[David]

Ah, I meant that I always name a religious I meet by their title - until they become my friends.

It is the same when talking to the police or visiting a doctor. Meeting them at, say, a soiree where they are not 'on duty' is different. Don't you think? So for me it is a matter of where and when we meet them.

As for bowing and scraping to anyone? I don't think so - custard pie is more likely :wink:

 

[Lydia Gillen]

Sagalouts,

In my opinion it is unfair to tar everyone in a group with the same brush.

Would you like to be blamed for the bad behaviour of a few pilgrims?

What has happened in Ireland is truly awful and all of us are angry and shamed by it.

But there are very many good priests out there who have served their people throughout their lives with integrity and care, and I do not like them to be blamed for the actions of others no more than I would want to be blamed for the actions of others

 

[tyrrek]

I was thinking of it more in terms of respecting the local norms and customs as much as the individual concerned, and not wanting to appear rude.

I've met two fellow pilgrims who I know were priests, but one I didn't know was a priest until later. Both introduced themselves by their first name. I think it's a bit different when someone is a fellow pilgrim rather than in their 'role', as it were.

Buen Camino!

 

[David]

Agree Lydia - you hear these throw away insults but the same people never mention the same abuse that happened to children in Protestant run homes and in state run homes.
Nor do they ever mention that the government stats show that child abuse runs at 5% throughout our society and the cases that have come to light within the Roman church are just a tiny tiny fraction of that national average.

Child abuse is a terrible thing - there are many on here who have suffered it - but to label all for the crimes of some, not on, not on at all.

 

[gnhale]

I am both ordained and Spanish...but I only give this response from my mother's perspective (she was from Southern Spain). Always great everyone with the utmost respect which in Spain is Usted...and acknowledge them with a full greeting, not a nod, or a brisk Hola etc. But actually looking at them, saying hello and letting them respond in kind. In Spanish speaking culture taking a moment to say hello and mean it ..is very important. It allows you to fully check in and to be a part of someone's life if only for a minute. The same could be said for saying Adios. Not a quick one out the door and on your way to whatever your perceived important event is. But a moment, saying good bye, giving thanks, and acknowledging that for that mini second you two are the only two that matter. Yes the person may not respond in kind, but you did your part, and my mother would be proud! It is not what you say so much, but how you say it, with mutual respect, love, and showing that the person on the other end of that greeting matters.

Buen Camino

 

[oursonpolaire]

Learning French many years ago, I was told to use "vous" as my default in speaking with people and they would let me know if we could be more informal. To begin more formally was a declaration of mutual equality, where to use the informal was to suggest that I was superior and they the inferior.

My Spanish friends told me to take the same general approach, and advised me to use "Padre" or "Don X" when speaking with priests, and "hermana X" when speaking with a nun. Addressing my only Spanish bishop acquaintance, I started with "Grandeza" and was told to move to "Don Luis," and after a long walk, we went to "Luis."

I found gnhale's post interesting. This was one of the first things I noticed in Spain, and although it is not universal, I found this approach of acknowledging people to be attractive and human and civilised. It gave me many opportunities to meet people and I have caused much consternation in Ontario by doing the same. My friends are quite concerned with me as I exchange greetings with letter carriers, panhandlers, constables and baristas (and even clergy!).

 

[annelise]

To gnhale:

Thank you very much for your response which – I believe - conveys some very important information about interacting when meeting the wonderful local people on the camino.

I totally agree that a quick 'hola' or 'buenos dias' when greeting a local person in passing might well be followed by this short pause you suggest – even though you do not necessary speak the same language. But body language and smiles are universal and even a very few words in Spanish would show your respect for the person.

I myself claim guilty of not always taking this pause.

But at one time I did. Coming into Azqueta (just before Villamayor de Monjardin), an old man (yes, he was very old) sat greeting the pilgrims as they came past him. I believe that most of the pilgrims did not understand him when he was talking about a 'sello' he wished to give them. Somehow, however, I caught on to this (with my limited Spanish), and he asked me to follow him (about a hundred meters) to his tiny house where he gave me a beautiful sello.

But (shame on me), I then suggested that I gave him a donativo. He then came out with a rather long speech, the gist of which I understood, namely that this world was too much about money. And I was truly humbled.

 

[Sagalouts]

just re-read my post-memo to oneself don't post at 1-10am after drinking wine.My thoughts were best left for another time and another forum.
Ian

 

[David]

just re-read my post-memo to oneself don't post at 1-10am after drinking wine.My thoughts were best left for another time and another forum.
Ian

You do yourself down, I liked your post! :wink: