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Maybe because we have respect for the history of the Pilgrimage. Landscapes may make me "Woah!" at them, but those historical places would make me go into a deep thoughts without even realizingMaybe it is that sense of 'connection'?
I completely agree.Maybe because we have respect for the history of the Pilgrimage. Landscapes may make me "Woah!" at them, but those historical places would make me go into a deep thoughts without even realizing
Yes, the landscapes are indeed beautiful. For me, the purpose of the Camino is to help bring my internal landscapes into focus ... my spiritual landscapes, my relationship landscapes, etc. I think the same might apply to many other pilgrims based on interactions I have had over the years.Maybe because we have respect for the history of the Pilgrimage. Landscapes may make me "Woah!" at them, but those historical places would make me go into a deep thoughts without even realizing
But they *were* under direction to visit those places -- not as historical in a past sense, but as historical in the 'living history' sense: as the representation of the very best that the age had to offer... more important, particularly sacred, holding knowledge and cultural value that their local lives could not deliver. Pilgrimage was all that you mention *and* a cultural education as well... in which the Church raised up the people, and the people funded the various cathedrals and basilicas that in turn provided the pragmatic help known under the general idea of 'hospice/hospitality' at that time.I completely agree.
Interestingly, historical places most definitely weren't motivations originally, as our history was their modern day
This is what I've been questioning. I'm not so sure that time to contemplate or processing grief were motivations for medieval pilgrims. That seems to be a modern motivation.I don't think the motivation for most is much different than it was in the past. Religious commitment, processing grief, looking for answers and time to contemplate are universal human traits and have not changed much over the centuries.
The "cheap holiday" phrase gets thrown around a lot here, but if I indeed wanted a cheap holiday, it wouldn't be spent walking for hours a day in all kinds of weather, and sleeping in shared dorms with a bunch of strangers. Instead, I would find an inexpensive place to spend a week or two on a beach somewhere.While some see it as a cheap holiday,
This surprised me, but possibly because the forum is my main source of information and discussion about the Camino. (Maybe the thousands of other sources have none: I don't really know.) The forum has lots of threads and posts on this topic, even though discussions need to respect Rule 3.I find it interesting that in the hundreds or thousands of hours of camino content I've consumed - videos, podcasts, books, forums - I almost never see discussions about how our motivations today are starkly different from what they were when this whole thing began.
Woah! Roman roads were already very old in the 1400s!! As were the Pre-Romanesque chapel in Oviedo (started in 796) and the Church of Santa María del Naranco and the Church of San Miguel de Lillo in the same city - and even the Romanesque church of Eunate and the Church of Santa Maria la Blanca in Villalcazar de Sirga and the Church of Santiago in Villafranca del Bierzo were already 300 years old by then!Interestingly, historical places most definitely weren't motivations originally, as our history was their modern day
In fact, from the very start of foot and horse and maritime pilgrimages in the 3rd and 4th Centuries, pilgrims were very interested in visiting historic locations of particular shrines, locations of martyrdoms (notably in Rome where entire Communities/Parishes had been wiped out by Roman Authorities), or such historic Biblical locations that continue to be pilgrimage destinations to this very day.Interestingly, historical places most definitely weren't motivations originally, as our history was their modern day
Not so cheap as it was with luggage transfer and private rooms which seems to be a preference for many nowadays.The "cheap holiday" phrase gets thrown around a lot here, but if I indeed wanted a cheap holiday, it wouldn't be spent walking for hours a day in all kinds of weather, and sleeping in shared dorms with a bunch of strangers. Instead, I would find an inexpensive place to spend a week or two on a beach somewhere.
I believe, based on my own experience in chaplaincy and pastoral ministry, that "contemplation" has changed from what were the earliest days of the pilgrimage to SdC. In short, it was then primarily an act of penance and prayer. The more contemporary understanding of the term seems to focus on understanding one's purpose or direction. While I admit my thoughts are somewhat simplified, I believe it the case in more general terms.As I walked the Via de la Plata from Seville this spring, I had a lot of time to think. A really big amount of time. One of the things I spent some time thinking about is how the purpose or motivation of pilgrimage to Santiago has changed since it began in the middle ages.
Back in the golden era of the Camino de Santiago in the ninth and tenth century, and in subsequent centuries, people walked to SDC for religious reasons. More specifically, they walked there to atone for past sins, to seek some sort of miracle, to pray for help for themselves for for someone else, etc.
While there are no doubt still some that walk for those reasons today, based on the myriad of camino content available it would seem that most people today walk for very different reasons. Specifically they tend to walk because they are looking for time alone to think. Perhaps to process grief or to contemplate a crossroad in their life. Some simply enjoy the peace and nature, and simplicity of camino life. Many walk because of the people they meet along the way. Indeed this seems to be one of the biggest reasons people are attracted to the camino. Many do it for cultural or slow-tourism reasons. What better way to see such a beautiful country. There are other reasons as well, but the point is that the majority aren't doing it for the reasons it was done historically. All those great qualities we like to focus on today - being present in the moment, letting our minds slow down, enjoying the company of fellow pilgrims - were luxuries the medieval pilgrims didn't have. They were simply trying to get to SDC and the long journey was just something that had to be done to get there. I don't know but I suspect that being present in the moment and having time alone with their thoughts wasn't a thing back then.
Not sure what my point is. Not sure I have one, other than to say I find it interesting that in the hundreds or thousands of hours of camino content I've consumed - videos, podcasts, books, forums - I almost never see discussions about how our motivations today are starkly different from what they were when this whole thing began. At least for most of us. We talk about "the camino" and how people have been walking it for a thousand years, as if they've done it for the same reasons we walk it today.
The pilgrims of old do not deserve and did not earn any special honor on why the pilgrimage--they are the same as the pilgrims of today--few pure of heart and purpose, many selfish, egotistical, materialistic, walking the wrong paths in life as well as some just bad people. The world has not changed in this regard except the pilgrims of old were much less educated, more ignorant than pilgrims of today (not necessarily in the spiritual sense) and due to their illiteracy and ignorance quite willing to believe almost anything the church said, regardless of whether it was truth or fiction. And as far as being more educated, the pilgrims of today, this does not necessarily mean more wise. Ignorance, blindness, and stupidity is ever-present today as it was yesterday. On this happy note, have a nice day. ChuckAs I walked the Via de la Plata from Seville this spring, I had a lot of time to think. A really big amount of time. One of the things I spent some time thinking about is how the purpose or motivation of pilgrimage to Santiago has changed since it began in the middle ages.
Back in the golden era of the Camino de Santiago in the ninth and tenth century, and in subsequent centuries, people walked to SDC for religious reasons. More specifically, they walked there to atone for past sins, to seek some sort of miracle, to pray for help for themselves for for someone else, etc.
While there are no doubt still some that walk for those reasons today, based on the myriad of camino content available it would seem that most people today walk for very different reasons. Specifically they tend to walk because they are looking for time alone to think. Perhaps to process grief or to contemplate a crossroad in their life. Some simply enjoy the peace and nature, and simplicity of camino life. Many walk because of the people they meet along the way. Indeed this seems to be one of the biggest reasons people are attracted to the camino. Many do it for cultural or slow-tourism reasons. What better way to see such a beautiful country. There are other reasons as well, but the point is that the majority aren't doing it for the reasons it was done historically. All those great qualities we like to focus on today - being present in the moment, letting our minds slow down, enjoying the company of fellow pilgrims - were luxuries the medieval pilgrims didn't have. They were simply trying to get to SDC and the long journey was just something that had to be done to get there. I don't know but I suspect that being present in the moment and having time alone with their thoughts wasn't a thing back then.
Not sure what my point is. Not sure I have one, other than to say I find it interesting that in the hundreds or thousands of hours of camino content I've consumed - videos, podcasts, books, forums - I almost never see discussions about how our motivations today are starkly different from what they were when this whole thing began. At least for most of us. We talk about "the camino" and how people have been walking it for a thousand years, as if they've done it for the same reasons we walk it today.
Though I assume that a greater percentage of walkers fit the patterns you have described, it is not historically accurate to say that the early pilgrims only did it for religious reasons. David M. Gitlitz and Linda Kay Davidson, who wrote The Pilgrimage Road to Santiago, wrote that some did it for "politics", some "to enrich themselves on the pilgrim trade", some "in lieu of prison," some, "for the pleasure of travel," and more. How we can ever figure out the percentages, I have not idea. I think that then, as well as now, many might start with one motivation, but end up changing their reasons as they go along.As I walked the Via de la Plata from Seville this spring, I had a lot of time to think. A really big amount of time. One of the things I spent some time thinking about is how the purpose or motivation of pilgrimage to Santiago has changed since it began in the middle ages.
Back in the golden era of the Camino de Santiago in the ninth and tenth century, and in subsequent centuries, people walked to SDC for religious reasons. More specifically, they walked there to atone for past sins, to seek some sort of miracle, to pray for help for themselves for for someone else, etc.
While there are no doubt still some that walk for those reasons today, based on the myriad of camino content available it would seem that most people today walk for very different reasons. Specifically they tend to walk because they are looking for time alone to think. Perhaps to process grief or to contemplate a crossroad in their life. Some simply enjoy the peace and nature, and simplicity of camino life. Many walk because of the people they meet along the way. Indeed this seems to be one of the biggest reasons people are attracted to the camino. Many do it for cultural or slow-tourism reasons. What better way to see such a beautiful country. There are other reasons as well, but the point is that the majority aren't doing it for the reasons it was done historically. All those great qualities we like to focus on today - being present in the moment, letting our minds slow down, enjoying the company of fellow pilgrims - were luxuries the medieval pilgrims didn't have. They were simply trying to get to SDC and the long journey was just something that had to be done to get there. I don't know but I suspect that being present in the moment and having time alone with their thoughts wasn't a thing back then.
Not sure what my point is. Not sure I have one, other than to say I find it interesting that in the hundreds or thousands of hours of camino content I've consumed - videos, podcasts, books, forums - I almost never see discussions about how our motivations today are starkly different from what they were when this whole thing began. At least for most of us. We talk about "the camino" and how people have been walking it for a thousand years, as if they've done it for the same reasons we walk it today.
The English ask the question "and did those feet" in their unofficial National Anthem of Jerusalem and this post (thank you) reminds me to go back and complete a Web-App I started a few months back of the Bath to Glastonbury pilgrimagewalk in the places Jesus and the apostles walked
Why would you assume that? If we can rely on medieval literature that described why pilgrims walked the Camino - and that reason was to atone for their sins - one can surmise that, if they were serious about atoning then they may have felt a sense of guilt or grief for past actions or thoughts. And, I imagine, walking 500 miles or more gave them plenty of time to do some self-reflecting regarding the “sin” and think about their atoning and how they might be better in the future.This is what I've been questioning. I'm not so sure that time to contemplate or processing grief were motivations for medieval pilgrims. That seems to be a modern motivation.
Wait, are you saying there was even MORE pavement?While their journey may have been much more unpleasant than pilgrims today,
It´s actually from a poem by William Blake.The English ask the question "and did those feet" in their unofficial National Anthem of Jerusalem and this post (thank you) reminds me to go back and complete a Web-App I started a few months back of the Bath to Glastonbury pilgrimage
about "England's green and pleasant land" (and darn them Dark Satanic Mills)a poem by William Blake
Yes indeed and I would venture a sort of "hybrid" facility via technology that sadly is rarely available for those that can not GET to see the windows in person. Of course not available in olden times to the ones MOST in need of such things ie those ABOUT to die.By comparison, the majority of our contemporary world can only comprehend the barest details (if any) and if we were to require comprehension of the larger context? Well, you can try it yourself by trying to read the window panes and porticos of any ancient church without an expert interpreter with you.
Notions of Mediaeval "illiteracy" and "ignorance" are another example of the Myth of "Progress", whereas, particularly in Mediterranean Europe, the Roman school system largely persisted through the Middle Ages and basic literacy was widespread.The world has not changed in this regard except the pilgrims of old were much less educated, more ignorant than pilgrims of today (not necessarily in the spiritual sense) and due to their illiteracy and ignorance quite willing to believe almost anything the church said, regardless of whether it was truth or fiction.
That is a Baroque interior of a church in Castrojeriz and not what @Perambulating Griffin referred when mentioning that "most medieval people, however, could read the intricate, complicated visual narratives of sculptures and stained glass". A far cry from Romanesque and Gothic.For example Hector will pass by St Johns tomorrow where one such pilgrim has done just that here
The heyday of Christian pilgrimage mass movement in Europe and elsewhere, so far, has been between about the 5th and 21st Centuries.The heydays of the European medieval pilgrimage mass movement were over - a period that lasted from more or less 1100 to 1400 - very very roughly.
Every single Catholic church has a relic as the foundation piece of the altar.The important role of relics. The important role of intercession of saints in the current life and in the afterlife. The need to be physically present in an environment very close to the relics.
It's true that there has been a widespread falling away from religious Faith in recent decades and Centuries, but it's hard to see how that might change what a miracle might be, and it is hard to see that Mediaeval pilgrims might have sought them any less or more than any 21st Century ones.A general belief in miracles that is different from what we might call a miracle today.
I think you have an excellent point here. I think whenever a lot of people have walked the Camino, they've done it for a lot of different reasons. This came up in a recent thread about misbehaviour on the Camino, too. Pilgrims have never been all saints (although some saints are said to have walked the Camino), and their reasons have never been all religious.Admittedly it is a work of fiction, but Chaucer’s ‘Canterbury Tales’ suggests our 14th century forebears weren’t so very different to us.
I think it is no coincidence that the best-selling English language guidebook for the Camino Frances was written by someone whose own spiritual base was in eclectic "New Age" mystical traditions rather than mainstream Christianity.Of course, the Camino is many things to many people and marketed in many different ways. But I suspect, due to those cultural differences, there is a much greater proportion of "spiritual" and "self-realization" marketing now than there was in the middle ages.
And just to complement these bits of quotes, and not in order to contradict or to "prove" anything in this threadDavid M. Gitlitz and Linda Kay Davidson, who wrote The Pilgrimage Road to Santiago, wrote that some did it for "politics", some "to enrich themselves on the pilgrim trade", some "in lieu of prison," some, "for the pleasure of travel," and more.
The same definitely applies to meFor me, the purpose of the Camino is to help bring my internal landscapes into focus ... my spiritual landscapes, my relationship landscapes, etc. I think the same might apply to many other pilgrims based on interactions I have had over the years.
OK can you please explain what this "thing" ISMedieval pilgrims saw it and they knew what it meant and it filled them with deep fear.
I like your "admission" that the Camino is actually marketed as most folk will claim it just sort of "came to them" to do a Camino as some sort of "inner message"I think that the way that the Camino is "marketed" also affects the proportions of pilgrims with different reasons and approaches to their Camino.
It could be sculptures of the Last Judgement.OK can you please explain what this "thing" IS
And if I may be so bold as to ask - who is depicted in your avatar thingo with arms wide open?Religious art as an expression of thinking at the time can help gain such understanding.
Well yes even to an ignorant 70 years lapsed catholic I can see that in the Portico of Glory at the destinationIt could be sculptures of the Last Judgement.
Perhaps one cannot demonstrate fundamental differences between attitudes now and in the Middle Ages better than by this: on the one hand, whining about how many kilometres other Camino pilgrims walk on foot, whether with backpack or organised transport, whether with booking of beds or not, and through which door one enters the cathedral at the destination. Apologies in general but bringing these topics repeatedly into threads without any comprehensible context amounts to whining.Portico of Glory
But unfortunately the "marketing" of this "camino thing" since about 2011 says the pilgrim does not get to SEE the portico on her/his way in so any "deep fear" does not come into play IMHO.
Apart from the fact that the doors are invariably locked. From the Romanesque period onwards, churches would normally have an elaborately carved tympanum showing the mandala and the judgment of souls.But for hundreds of other churches along the way that I have observed there is no such impediment to an entry into the church - but I stand to be corrected
Gargoyles?OK can you please explain what this "thing" IS
So thoughtful. Thanks. At least nowadays no one is walking as punishment for a crime. At least I don't think so!This is what I've been questioning. I'm not so sure that time to contemplate or processing grief were motivations for medieval pilgrims. That seems to be a modern motivation.
I get the sense that many of the motivations for pilgrims walking today started to be articulated as motivations when the camino became popular again, in the past 50 years or so. Prior to that I suspect pilgrims would have been puzzled if you suggested any motivation other than religion and their personal concern that they have a pleasant afterlife.
I'm speculating of course, but everything I've heard about medieval pilgrimage says that they did it strictly for religious reasons, and the destination was the goal, not the journey. That's very different from why most do it today, where the journey is the goal.
That idea has not completely gone away though "punishment" is not quite the aim.So thoughtful. Thanks. At least nowadays no one is walking as punishment for a crime. At least I don't think so!
This is wonderful! Thank you. And it seems to work.That idea has not completely gone away though "punishment" is not quite the idea.
Thread 'Seuil' https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/seuil.80605/
Yes indeed they are very scary sorts of creatures and one can easily understand a person "leaving home" to escape from them.They saw these images at home and they saw them again and again along the pilgrimage roads
No, nobody is walking as punishment for a crime today, and I personally do not see any parallels between now and then although posters sometimes make such comparisons.At least nowadays no one is walking as punishment for a crime.
This is wonderful! Thank you. And it seems to work.
I recently returned from the Camino Del Norte where two of the people I met in El Convento in Santillana Del Mar were a young teacher and her teenage ward “ a troubled young lady” walking together. We were thrown together in an “overflow room” an oratory with mattresses on the floor with several others. I had reserved via email and my reservation was lost, after I showed the email thread to the gentleman at the check in desk, I was offered the overflow accommodation. It was one of the best nights. I love the idea of the mentored walk, and this does speak ( to me at least) about encounters with the hand of the divine in our lives.No, nobody is walking as punishment for a crime today, and I personally do not see any parallels between now and then although posters sometimes make such comparisons.
There are youth programs where young people (mostly teenagers if I understand correctly) are offered the possibility to participate in a walk to Santiago with a guardian. I think that it is usually labelled as a walk and not a pilgrimage. The purpose is to give them a chance to escape a harmful environment back home and to gain personal skills that enable them upon their return back home to give their life a different direction and not end up in a life of deliquency and jail time. There is also a program in a Spanish jail where their priest organises a short Camino walk for prisoners who are about to be released because their time in jail has reached its end. The aim is again reinsertion into society - it is not instead of jail-time.
I would have to read up what I know about the Middle Ages so this is mostly from memory. Both church courts and secular courts issued orders to go on pilgrimage but the number of pilgrims concerned, or percentage of the total number of pilgrims, was very small. As far as I remember the church-issued punishments concerned only or mainly certain categories of crimes and certain categories of perpetrators, for example when someone had killed another person inside a church or when priests or monks had committed murder or crimes / sins of a sexual nature such as having a sexual relationship with one or more women. One aim of secular sentences was exiling the perpetrator from society for a considerable period of time - in a way it was the exact opposite to today, i.e. exclusion instead of inclusion.
PS: Adeline Rucquoi has some details about this aspect in Mille fois à Compostelle, pèlerins du Moyen Age that goes beyond just saying "they walked as a punishment" but there are other sources with detailed information.
Yes I notice that and I counter it by looking at the google site for the church and if a fellow Google Local Guide has made a recent user friendly comment I include that church in my Web-App.Apart from the fact that the doors are invariably locked.
I´m not sure if you have grasped what I was trying to say: Churches in Spain are locked most of the time so it is almost impossible to enter them or see what is inside unless there is a mass or service going on at the exact time you happen to pass.Yes I notice that and I counter it by looking at the google site for the church and if a fellow Google Local Guide has made a recent user friendly comment I include that church in my Web-App.
That strategy has amounted to 95 churches linked for the Camino Frances
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