Dov of the Galilee
Member
- Time of past OR future Camino
- (2017)
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It also could be about the nature of human beings. Being surprised that a wild animal might cause one harm is naive. Being surprised at the depths of human depravity and evil . . . , well, God is not surprised; why should we be. This is why so many old people die along, estranged from their family brothers. Human nature--so cool at times; at other times, well . . .I'd like to share an observation that I've witnessed a few times on this camino that I think needs some attention and that is regarding elderly pilgrims traveling with family.
Yesterday I witnessed a daughter of 50+ berate her elderly mother for walking too slow and that she was going to go forward without her and she ‘could catch up’ . This event coupled with several other elderly pilgrims whom I walked with in their 80's has sparked my need to say something.
One gentleman, 85 from the USA leaned so far to the right I was concerned he was going to fall down the ravine so I respectfully asked if he would move to the center of the trail to prevent this tragedy. From there we walked together and every two minutes he had a tripping episode that he barely survived. I had to ask how he was managing and he said his son and grandson were walking the Camino with him…they would rush forward to the next town and sit at a Cafe and wait for him, that was their method.
I wish I had my grandparents, my children to walk with me. That walk would be all about them, I would appreciate that this might never happen again and I would cherish that walk. I don't claim to understand this idea of bringing an elderly person to this challenge and then abandon them.
It's about the journey and not the destination my friends.
1) WHY was this gentleman in the top bunk? Who the h.. did not offer him her/his down one?We walked for a couple of day with an elderly gentleman, Peter, a German out of Hamburg. He was 86. I would say his abilities were marginal. One night he was in a top bunk in a different room from us and fell out! He was embarrassed but unhurt. He was a slow but steady Pilgrim. We were on the outskirts of Los Arcos when he needed to rest and we separated. I felt bad that we did not continue to walk with him but I realize since that we were simply part of a group of Pilgrims that were helping him along the way. He was with someone before and I hope he was with someone after! He would call his wife every day, always calling her his 'kline Schatze' (little treasure), she would respond 'Du bist verruckt' (you are crazy!) We wish him well wherever he is.
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There were other younger people in the room with him. We found out that he did indeed ask others to switch. I guess no one was willing1) WHY was this gentleman in the top bunk? Who the h.. did not offer him her/his down one?
2) This is why many of the bunks on Camino is life-threatining! No railings and you do not have a choice!
This story touched my heart, Dov.I'd like to share an observation that I've witnessed a few times on this camino that I think needs some attention and that is regarding elderly pilgrims traveling with family.
Yesterday I witnessed a daughter of 50+ berate her elderly mother for walking too slow and that she was going to go forward without her and she ‘could catch up’ . This event coupled with several other elderly pilgrims whom I walked with in their 80's has sparked my need to say something.
One gentleman, 85 from the USA leaned so far to the right I was concerned he was going to fall down the ravine so I respectfully asked if he would move to the center of the trail to prevent this tragedy. From there we walked together and every two minutes he had a tripping episode that he barely survived. I had to ask how he was managing and he said his son and grandson were walking the Camino with him…they would rush forward to the next town and sit at a Cafe and wait for him, that was their method.
I wish I had my grandparents, my children to walk with me. That walk would be all about them, I would appreciate that this might never happen again and I would cherish that walk. I don't claim to understand this idea of bringing an elderly person to this challenge and then abandon them.
It's about the journey and not the destination my friends.
I always message ahead and ask for a lower bunk. Reasonable amount of success and nothing to lose. One hostel manager said she qelcomed the message as it was useful when they were putting her ‘sleeping plans together as they had no ideas of peoples ages, mobility so it’s a blank sheet alert form group size. .There were other younger people in the room with him. We found out that he did indeed ask others to switch. I guess no one was willing
It’s difficult to know if the 85 year old man insisted his family go ahead. As I get older (72 now) I cherish my independence and ability to hike solo. At what point will I not be able to walk solo or have to stop altogether? I walked a bit with a wonderful woman, Dorothea, aged 92, in 2017. She did her own thing.. walked about 10km a day and in the evenings join her daughter (who walked ahead) somewhere for dinner etc. one day Dorothea decided to take a few extra days to volunteer at the archeological site She was having the time of her life and I want to be Dorothea when I grow up.I'd like to share an observation that I've witnessed a few times on this camino that I think needs some attention and that is regarding elderly pilgrims traveling with family.
Yesterday I witnessed a daughter of 50+ berate her elderly mother for walking too slow and that she was going to go forward without her and she ‘could catch up’ . This event coupled with several other elderly pilgrims whom I walked with in their 80's has sparked my need to say something.
One gentleman, 85 from the USA leaned so far to the right I was concerned he was going to fall down the ravine so I respectfully asked if he would move to the center of the trail to prevent this tragedy. From there we walked together and every two minutes he had a tripping episode that he barely survived. I had to ask how he was managing and he said his son and grandson were walking the Camino with him…they would rush forward to the next town and sit at a Cafe and wait for him, that was their method.
I wish I had my grandparents, my children to walk with me. That walk would be all about them, I would appreciate that this might never happen again and I would cherish that walk. I don't claim to understand this idea of bringing an elderly person to this challenge and then abandon them.
It's about the journey and not the destination my friends.
Maybe the 85 year old insisted his family go ahead so that he could feel some sense of freedom or independence? As I age (72 now) I relish my ability to keep walking and hiking solo. I do wonder at age will I need a walking companion or, worse, have to stop entirely? In 2017 on the CF I met Dorothea, a 92 year old. She averaged about 10km a day, taking in everything, making friends, and in the evenings would meet up with her daughter. At one point Dorothea decided to take a few days off to volunteer at the Atapuerca site and afterwards continued her Camino. I want to be Dorothea! I am lucky to be able to keep trekking and to plan more adventures. Imo, it would be a blessing to die from hiking too much (enjoying life) than to spend my elderly years growing feeble in a nursing home.I'd like to share an observation that I've witnessed a few times on this camino that I think needs some attention and that is regarding elderly pilgrims traveling with family.
Yesterday I witnessed a daughter of 50+ berate her elderly mother for walking too slow and that she was going to go forward without her and she ‘could catch up’ . This event coupled with several other elderly pilgrims whom I walked with in their 80's has sparked my need to say something.
One gentleman, 85 from the USA leaned so far to the right I was concerned he was going to fall down the ravine so I respectfully asked if he would move to the center of the trail to prevent this tragedy. From there we walked together and every two minutes he had a tripping episode that he barely survived. I had to ask how he was managing and he said his son and grandson were walking the Camino with him…they would rush forward to the next town and sit at a Cafe and wait for him, that was their method.
I wish I had my grandparents, my children to walk with me. That walk would be all about them, I would appreciate that this might never happen again and I would cherish that walk. I don't claim to understand this idea of bringing an elderly person to this challenge and then abandon them.
It's about the journey and not the destination my friends.
I am 66 and fit. The albergues would always try ro get me a bottom bunk. I felt on the camino, age was respected.I always message ahead and ask for a lower bunk. Reasonable amount of success and nothing to lose. One hostel manager said she qelcomed the message as it was useful when they were putting her ‘sleeping plans together as they had no ideas of peoples ages, mobility so it’s a blank sheet alert form group size. .
Maybe older or folks with an injury / disability could try that. Many people won’t give up their seat on a bus/train so not too hopeful folks giving up a lower bunk.
I disagree. It depends on the group and what the agreements they made with each other before starting on the Camino.There is a phrase that came to mind from my younger military days "you're only as fast as your slowest man". If you set out as a family unit that's what you should travel as IMHO.
I walked (solo) at age 75 (after major heart surgery at 71) on the Greek Islands but was very mindful of my limitations and tried to avoid taking on paths "away from help" if needed.I do wonder at age will I need a walking companion or, worse, have to stop entirely?
What an unpleasant story !!I'd like to share an observation that I've witnessed a few times on this camino that I think needs some attention and that is regarding elderly pilgrims traveling with family.
Yesterday I witnessed a daughter of 50+ berate her elderly mother for walking too slow and that she was going to go forward without her and she ‘could catch up’ . This event coupled with several other elderly pilgrims whom I walked with in their 80's has sparked my need to say something.
One gentleman, 85 from the USA leaned so far to the right I was concerned he was going to fall down the ravine so I respectfully asked if he would move to the center of the trail to prevent this tragedy. From there we walked together and every two minutes he had a tripping episode that he barely survived. I had to ask how he was managing and he said his son and grandson were walking the Camino with him…they would rush forward to the next town and sit at a Cafe and wait for him, that was their method.
All of the families I've come across so far on pilgrimage, whether in Spain or Portugal, have been looking after their elderly first, as you suggest.I wish I had my grandparents, my children to walk with me. That walk would be all about them, I would appreciate that this might never happen again and I would cherish that walk. I don't claim to understand this idea of bringing an elderly person to this challenge and then abandon them.
Things are tough for me as well, for different reasons, I'm not in danger if I'm alone, It's just slow and painful.A couple of years ago, I started having trouble with my knee, and last year with my achilles tendon and bursa, as well as plantar fasciitis. Happily my fasciitis has cleared up. An incompetent physical therapist seems to have ruined my knee. After two months of PT (different therapist) on my achilles, plus obediently not walking for two months, my tendonitis seems to have lessened, but within 10 minutes of starting to walk, it flares up. The thought of not being able to walk another route saddens me more than I can say.
However, back in March, I chose to walk from Sarria to Santiago (Camino Addiction). Each step was excruciating, but my stubbornness kicked in, and I made my way very slowly. The last couple of days, I walked slower and slower, and I have no doubt that the charming Australian couple who decided to walk with me was the reason that I was able to make it to Santiago in a timely manner. They could have arrived there within a few hours, yet in their kindness, chose to help me through, distracting me with conversation. (In gratitude, I still periodically send them good thoughts and blessings.)
It's true that people aren't always honest to each other, nor honest even with themselves, and pilgrims with mobility issues should be honest about them -- including if they vary from one day to the next, and from one surface to another. But those walking with disabled and/or older pilgrims should still take care and pay attention to the difficulties and needs that they may have, or might not as the case may be.While I agree that adults are responsible for their own decision, I wonder what these families are thinking when they plan a Camino with folks who may have trouble walking for whatever reason. I wonder if they have pilgrimaged before. I wonder if they thought to discuss how they would handle slower and faster walkers. Maybe at home they agreed it was fine with everyone to walk at his own pace and catch up later, but en route, never checked how that was working out. I wonder if they were unrealistic in their discussions.
Wee-ell... not always! I have walked the Camino Francés three times with my mother, and on two of those trips she (age 79 and then 81) was considerably faster than me (aged 48 then 50)! I would be trudging along and she'd be disappearing around the next bend, probably chatting away to someone. I have numerous photos of her back.... She would stop and wait for me occasionally! So if anyone saw her walking alone on the Camino, it wasn't due to being left behind!younger people are faster.
totally agree. Walking for 2 weeks with my 15 year old grandson in 2022, from SJPP to Burgos was a pleasure. I don't class myself as a 'old' granny, but he is much fitter. After Pamplona, and getting used to çamino walking, I told him to walk on ahead, if he wanted. He met younger pilgrims to chat to and often waited after a long ascent. It was a great chance to spend some time with him and watch him grow in independence. He is doing an apprenticeship now and tells me that he is saving up so that he can walk the entire Frances.Was the (no-so) elderly parent twice this year. With my son on the Via Francigena nel Sud and with my daughter on the Via Francigena in Switzerland. Both times they went ahead as, believe it or not, younger people are faster.
But everyone has failed to mention the joy of walking with your children and introducing them to the caminos.
There is a rule when you go bush walking/ hiking in a group that you go as fast as the slowest walker, a bit like the rule when you walk on the road that you should walk facing the oncoming traffic !This story touched my heart, Dov.
I am glad you were a blessing to this man, and that you were placed in each others' paths at the right time.
As an older person (I cannot get myself to use the term 'elderly' just yet!), I understand the dangers of walking alone, but that's how I've travel since my younger days. I do not have strength, speed or stride--never have. It's pure stubbornness that gets me through.
A couple of years ago, I started having trouble with my knee, and last year with my achilles tendon and bursa, as well as plantar fasciitis. Happily my fasciitis has cleared up. An incompetent physical therapist seems to have ruined my knee. After two months of PT (different therapist) on my achilles, plus obediently not walking for two months, my tendonitis seems to have lessened, but within 10 minutes of starting to walk, it flares up. The thought of not being able to walk another route saddens me more than I can say.
However, back in March, I chose to walk from Sarria to Santiago (Camino Addiction). Each step was excruciating, but my stubbornness kicked in, and I made my way very slowly. The last couple of days, I walked slower and slower, and I have no doubt that the charming Australian couple who decided to walk with me was the reason that I was able to make it to Santiago in a timely manner. They could have arrived there within a few hours, yet in their kindness, chose to help me through, distracting me with conversation. (In gratitude, I still periodically send them good thoughts and blessings.)
It is a treasure to meet Camino Angels.
While I agree that adults are responsible for their own decision, I wonder what these families are thinking when they plan a Camino with folks who may have trouble walking for whatever reason. I wonder if they have pilgrimaged before. I wonder if they thought to discuss how they would handle slower and faster walkers. Maybe at home they agreed it was fine with everyone to walk at his own pace and catch up later, but en route, never checked how that was working out. I wonder if they were unrealistic in their discussions. I wonder if they know they must stay well-hydrated to prevent dizziness and keep all systems going. I wonder if people realize the harshness of their words, and if their past and present resentment is controlling them.
Our Caminos are our own, and I hope we all are open to its lessons.
I'd like to share an observation that I've witnessed a few times on this camino that I think needs some attention and that is regarding elderly pilgrims traveling with family.
Yesterday I witnessed a daughter of 50+ berate her elderly mother for walking too slow and that she was going to go forward without her and she ‘could catch up’ . This event coupled with several other elderly pilgrims whom I walked with in their 80's has sparked my need to say something.
One gentleman, 85 from the USA leaned so far to the right I was concerned he was going to fall down the ravine so I respectfully asked if he would move to the center of the trail to prevent this tragedy. From there we walked together and every two minutes he had a tripping episode that he barely survived. I had to ask how he was managing and he said his son and grandson were walking the Camino with him…they would rush forward to the next town and sit at a Cafe and wait for him, that was their method.
I wish I had my grandparents, my children to walk with me. That walk would be all about them, I would appreciate that this might never happen again and I would cherish that walk. I don't claim to understand this idea of bringing an elderly person to this challenge and then abandon them.
It's about the journey and not the destination my friends.
Perfectly understandable for a wilderness trek, but the Camino Francés is not bush walking. If members of the group are comfortable walking separately at different speeds and they have all agreed, no one should feel bad about walking independently at their own pace.There is a rule when you go bush walking/ hiking in a group that you go as fast as the slowest walker,
What! Do you mean that I have to wait for my slow poke children to catch upIt's abuse, important to name it.
That's mostly daily hiking speed not metres per minute -- though clearly if there's someone in your group who's having difficulties, one in the group should hang back and take care or at least ensure the other is doing OK. When I was a fast walker, in the groups I've been in that would be me -- it's actually easier as a fast walker to do that, as you'll be in a better position to act if needed. And technically, walking at a slow pace is easier for faster walkers than moderate walkers who are more in need of keeping up their pace over the distance.There is a rule when you go bush walking/ hiking in a group that you go as fast as the slowest walker
None of these considerations however can justify berating your parents or grandparents for being too slow, or abandoning them to fend for themselves when they have genuine mobility issues.
If someone is walking slow, especially from old age or an injury, whether it's a friend or relative, a big dose of patience to wait for them or slow down yourself if necessary is needed.We don't need to go into rescue mode if we think a pilgrim is having a tough time. Empathy, presence and kindness trump judgement and criticism.
This is true. When walking past an "old" person who seems to be alone, there is no reason to assume that they are necessarily faltering and being left behind by loved ones who are racing on ahead.If members of the group are comfortable walking separately at different speeds and they have all agreed, no one should feel bad about walking independently at their own pace.
It is much harder than people would imagine. It can even be painful because you are altering your own normal stride among various other things.As a normally fast walker I find it is hard to adjust your speed down to a much slower speed. It takes physical effort, as your legs go on automatic, and its hard not to go to your normal stride. However when walking with someone injured or older I make an effort not to race off. I wouldn't abandon them.
But I've also been on the other end, being injured and walking slower. I don't like to hold people up, and am often happy to be left alone, but it can be nice to have someone to talk too, and take your mind off pain. The kms go by faster that way.
Thank you.Let's not infantilise older or less able pilgrims
It is an opinion. There is no need to consistently voice a contrary opinion, which has been done.Perfectly understandable for a wilderness trek, but the Camino Francés is not bush walking. If members of the group are comfortable walking separately at different speeds and they have all agreed, no one should feel bad about walking independently at their own pace.
Which is one good reason for walking solo. Plus letting people make their own choices. And I can think of many things that trump safety.It is an opinion. There is no need to consistently voice a contrary opinion, which has been done.
My humble opinion is for groups to simply be both thoughtful and kind to one another, and this includes personal sacrifice and/or enjoyment, and having frank conversations about personal abilities and feelings about situations that affect team members. More importantly, that there is nothing that trumps safety, and making plans for recalcitrant older folks that still think they can walk long distances (this is a conversation to be had long before boarding an airplane).
Be wise, thoughtful, and identify what is most important about a pilgrimage.
I talked to a friend recently who walked his 7th Camino. His first several Caminos were solo, but the last 4 were with family members. He told me that this year was his least favorite because although the family member has a fairly active lifestyle, he was not in "Camino shape". The twist is that my friend is in his 80s, while the family member is in his 50s!I have a lot of respect and admiration for those who walk intergenerational caminos, but I have met people who had huge regrets for having started out with one walking partner or another and then felt “trapped.”
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