A fine example worth emulating

[Kiwi-family]

Quite possibly many people will miss a gem of a post written by @davebugg because they are not interested in the choosing boots debate. But it such a fine example of gracious non-persuasion that is nevertheless compelling that I wanted to point it out. If we all communicate with Dave's gentleness and humility, the mods could take a break.

His is the first answer/second post in this thread:

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/help-selecting-boots-for-our-walk.56181/

 

[katie@camino]

Agree! Love his posts - so informative and helpful.

 

[Rich1]

Spot on

 

[Bill Ronan]

A balanced, informative and helpful post. As previously said, such posts as @davebugg give moderators an easier life. And, maybe teaches us how the unique experience of the Camino is as unique as everyone who walks its many paths.

 

[camino-david]

Totally agree with the way he writes his posts, even though occasionally I may disagree with his opinion

 

[Gareth Griffith]

I got so far with the article and then thought to myself, he starts by giving the opinion (which I agree with) that the choice of boots is personal and then writes rather a longish article on the choice of boots. To recommend that everyone should read this post is insulting, demanding that everyone should waste precious time. If you've time to stuff a mushroom you may have time to read this article, otherwise just make your own mind up what suits you best, which is what the chap says in the first place.

 

[peregrina2000]

I got so far with the article and then thought to myself, he starts by giving the opinion (which I agree with) that the choice of boots is personal and then writes rather a longish article on the choice of boots. Too recommend that everyone should read this post is insulting, demanding that everyone should waste precious time. If you've time to stuff a mushroom you may have time to read this article, otherwise just make your own mind up what suits you best, which is what the chap says in the first place.

Whoa, this is a pretty ornery reaction. I found nothing at all insulting about Rachel's suggestion. First of all, she is commenting on the fact that Dave gives a ton of factual information that can help people when they make their footwear choices and that he does it without insisting or taking a side. You may be an experienced walker, but for many many newbies, the first reaction is to go to hiking boots or hiking shoes. Most of us had no basis for that other than the instinct that, well, it's a long hike, so my shoes should be hiking shoes. What Dave Bugg has taught me and many others is that the research and experienced wilderness hikers have moved way beyond this point, and trail runners are the clear favorites on wilderness trails, at least in the US on the PCT and AT. But the uninformed peregrino, like me, would never have known that without his comments.

Sure, the choice of boots is personal, but many made that choice without the relevant information. I walked for 17 caminos in hiking boots or hiking shoes, and it wasn't till this year that Dave's comments gave me the information I made to make an intelligent choice for me. The difference was astonishing.

Perhaps I feel very defensive about both kiwi-family and davebugg and all the help they bring to the forum, but I did think your comment was unnecessarily brusque.

 

[spagirl]

oo recommend that everyone should read this post is insulting, demanding that everyone should waste precious time. If you've time to stuff a mushroom you may have time to read this article,

ooohhhh ....... a little harsh.
I liked the post BUT regardless - thats sort of why people ae searching on this forum isn't it? To find as much information as possible and then make up your own mind. There are a million variable /choices/ brands.
I for one enjoy reading about brands and equipment from other parts of the world that I may never have known about.

Thank you kiwi family for posting otherwise I wouldn't have read that post.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I, too, think the first response quite harsh. I'm glad others are chiming in in support of the OP's post, I know I am!

 

[Kiwi-family]

@Gareth Griffith I am sorry that my suggestion offended you. I just re-read it to see what I could change to make it less objectionable and was struck by the irony that my post essentially said that the content may not be of interest but the gracious way that Davebugg wrote is a great example to us all. My chosen title “everyone should read this” is clearly the contentious point and I will change it, but would you allow me to explain? There have been some quite nasty interactions on this forum in recent months and I thought this was an excellent example of positive communication and I wanted to highlight it. “If you are one of the members who makes personal attacks and is generally rude and argumentative would you mind reading this post” was too long a title (not to mention very negative and pointed) and I figured the many positive members who might read it would just nod in agreement or just not read it if they were not interested in observing the style of communication. Certainly it would have been prudent for me to avoid the hyperbolic use of “everyone” and more importantly, to issue an invitation instead of using “should”. I try to be very intentional about how I use words and I try to live at peace with everyone as much as I can, so would you accept my apologies for offending you with my careless language. While I have changed the title, I will not delete the thread because other comments indicate it has been helpful to many others. I am sorry that you felt your time was wasted.

 

[Tincatinker]

I If you've time to stuff a mushroom you may have time to read this article

I stuffed a few mushrooms while I read the post. I guess I've got fairly good hand-to-eye co-ordination but I'll let you know when the iPad comes out of the oven.

 

[Gareth Griffith]

It is notable that it is two females that think I'm being harsh. (I'm not sure whether "Camino Chris" is M or F.) Most blokes are more than capable of walking into a reputable outdoor shop and saying to an assistant "i'm thinking of walking at least 790 kilometers across northern Spain, I'm a size 7 and have a budget of fourpence, what have you got?" Half an hour later they'll be back on the street with a suitable pair of shoes/boots/flipflops/desert wellies.
But as any married adult male will tell you, women and shoe shops do not mix and are not the place that you want to be when they are in the process of buying footwear!
My humble apologies if anyone is seriously injured by my comments. Tincatinker you made me laugh!!

 

[Gareth Griffith]

Everyone should read this/these:
Mein Kampf
The Bible
War and Peace.
A la recherche du temps perdu.
The Blah Story

Can you see why I thought otherwise? Look 'em up, some of them are long, some of them are boring, some of them hold no interest for me or most other people.
Personally it was the grandiose "Everyone should read this" that got me. An instruction that everyone shoud read how to choose a pair of boots! Had it been the secret of eternal life, personal happiness or anything of real importance I could have accepted it, but you've just gotta read about boots!!!!!!!!
Thank you for your apology Kiwi Family.

 

[GettingThere]

Oh come on! Are we descending to petty sexism and stereotypes now?! @Gareth Griffith your comment about the gender of those posting is offensive. Can I suggest that post and the next where you compare @davebugg 's post to Mein Kampf (huh?!!) are deleted before this gets any more ridiculous?

 

[Kiwi-family]

Had it been the secret of eternal life, personal happiness or anything of real importance I could have accepted it, but you've just gotta read about boots!!!!!!!!.

How can I communicate this more clearly? It was never about the boots. It was all about The Way in Which He Wrote....polite, respectful, empathetic, gracious, informative, humble, compelling.

 

[Gareth Griffith]

Oh come on! Are we descending to petty sexism and stereotypes now?! @Gareth Griffith your comment about the gender of those posting is offensive. Can I suggest that post and the next where you compare @davebugg 's post to Mein Kampf (huh?!!) are deleted before this gets any more ridiculous?

i am not comparing anything. I am just making the point thst titling a piece about choosing a pair of boots “everyone should read this” is over the top. Try snd find s sense of humour too !

 

[Jeff Crawley]

It is notable that it is two females that think I'm being harsh. (I'm not sure whether "Camino Chris" is M or F.) Most blokes are more than capable of walking into a reputable outdoor shop and saying to an assistant "i'm thinking of walking at least 790 kilometers across northern Spain, I'm a size 7 and have a budget of fourpence, what have you got?" Half an hour later they'll be back on the street with a suitable pair of shoes/boots/flipflops/desert wellies.
But as any married adult male will tell you, women and shoe shops do not mix and are not the place that you want to be when they are in the process of buying footwear!
My humble apologies if anyone is seriously injured by my comments. Tincatinker you made me laugh!!

I'm a male. I thought your posting was brusque.

 

[peregrina2000]

It is notable that it is two females that think I'm being harsh. (I'm not sure whether "Camino Chris" is M or F.) Most blokes are more than capable of walking into a reputable outdoor shop and saying to an assistant "i'm thinking of walking at least 790 kilometers across northern Spain, I'm a size 7 and have a budget of fourpence, what have you got?" Half an hour later they'll be back on the street with a suitable pair of shoes/boots/flipflops/desert wellies.
But as any married adult male will tell you, women and shoe shops do not mix and are not the place that you want to be when they are in the process of buying footwear!
My humble apologies if anyone is seriously injured by my comments. Tincatinker you made me laugh!!

I am in no way "seriously injured" by your comments. For many years, I did what you suggest that "most blokes" do -- walked into REI or other "reputable outdoor shops". Year after year, I was sold hiking boots and hiking shoes. No one ever told me that the research clearly shows that for most people in most situations, those are way too much shoe for the camino. Most people buy hiking boots and hiking shoes because no one tells them any better. That is the void Dave filled.

 

[Tincatinker]

Trolling, posting provocatively merely to provoke others is not permitted on this forum. This appears to me to be robust discussion but if any member decides that fun at the expense of others comfort will be tolerated - they're wrong.

 

[GettingThere]

i am not comparing anything. I am just making the point thst titling a piece about choosing a pair of boots “everyone should read this” is over the top. Try snd find s sense of humour too !

Oh I have a sense of humour. This is not humorous, it's simply offensive:

But as any married adult male will tell you, women and shoe shops do not mix and are not the place that you want to be when they are in the process of buying footwear!

 

[Jeff Crawley]

Oh I have a sense of humour. This is not humorous, it's simply offensive:

And sexist of course.

 

[Kiwi-family]

@GettingThere while I agree with your concerns about stereotyping and sexism (which are, at best, unhelpful - stereotyping that is, not your comments!), I also believe in free speech and when you allow free speech you necessarily accept that some things said may be offensive. I still defend the right to speak - furthermore, I would defend the right to speak rudely if that is what someone chooses (although I also believe it would be appropriate to challenge such rudeness). @Gareth Griffith challenged me and I hope I responded in such a way as to promote peace. To be honest, in light of his more recent posts I am wondering if I should have just said, “Lighten up mate and don’t read it if you don’t want to.” It is intriguing to me that one who was so offended is displaying such offensive behaviour himself - and defending it.
My mother always told me I didn’t know when to stop on issues of justice and if her words are ringing in my ears now I’ve probably gone too far already. That said, I’ll now bow out.

 

[peregrina2000]

Ok let’s look at this again. The whole thing started when a forum member said he was “insulted” when another forum member had a thread saying you should read this. He then proceeded to insult both women and Davebugg with his response to some negative reactions to his comments. So I guess if Rachel insulted you (still not sure how) it’s ok for you to insult others.

Let’s also not lose the irony that this happened because Rachel was pointing out an example of extreme civility on the forum.

Time to close the thread.