90 day tourist limit - Schengen countries

[Kathor1]

There is also a financially independent visa. This simply requires proof that you can support yourself. In Greece that means have €2000 a month from unearned income ( pension, investments etc). In Portugal you only need around €7000 a year. Every country is different, so you need to check.

Interesting! I did not know that. Although I have of course heard of the Golden Visa and the Golden Passport schemes ... Greece, Cyprus, Malta and Portugal if I remember correctly? As you say, every EU country is different, so people need to check. It caused me to do a quick search for Portugal ... there's plenty of info. A screenshot is below. Alas, the Religious Purposes Visa of less than 1 year is not meant for Camino Pilgrims! Back to the Schengen Calculator and the 90 days it is!

 

[Kathor1]

every EU country is different, so people need to check.

Just to be clear: This advice applies to short stay visas for a stay of more than 90 days.

As far as I understand it, all visas of a stay of up to 90 days are treated the same now (may have been different 10 or 20 years ago). These are subject to the 90/180 rule and other Schengen rules and that's why the Schengen 90/180 visa is also called "Uniform visa": the same for all participating Schengen countries and valid for the whole Schengen area.

 

[Kathor1]

There is a lot of pertinent information out there. Just google a bit.

And since I just saw this on an europa.eu webpage (official EU website) and in view of the ever popular forum question: Are there checks between Roncesvalles and SJPP at the mountain border crossing? No, there aren't. There won't be any. There can be police checks though. Any time. Anywhere in a border area on either side of an internal EU border. Or on a cross-border train. Although they are unlikely to look for you, the Camino Pilgrim. Here are some rules, clarified by the EU high court in Luxembourg.

Any person, irrespective of their nationality, may cross the internal borders without being subjected to border checks. However, the competent national authorities can carry out police checks at internal borders and in border areas, provided that such checks are not equivalent to border checks. The non exhaustive list of criteria allowing to assess if police checks is equivalent to border controls is set out in the Schengen Borders Code. The Code is complemented by relevant case-law of the Court of Justice. It includes the following elements:​

• the police checks do not have border control as an objective,
• are based on general police information and experience,
• are carried out in a manner clearly distinct from systematic border checks on persons at the external borders,
• are carried out on the basis of spot-checks

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

You need to put yourself in the mind of the immigration officer who will consider your application for a longer stay visa. Their job is to encourage and enable non-permanent visitors who will benefit the country's economy by spending money while stopping permanent immigrants and/or people who will work.

Excellent advice, thank you.

May I add that a petitioner could mention, with various degrees of subtlety, that they will be staying in hotels and pensiones when they can to avoid the noisy albergues that they stayed at previously. And that this would also allow them to eat good places (subtle for more expensive) for lunch and dinner (twice as many good meals and dinner because you can stay up later outside an albergue).

Know points of interest along the way that you can drop into conversation. Admissions add more to the economy and the places can add to excitement (see my post #57 above).

Try to get to point across that lesser traveled caminos help spread your money across the country.

 

[Kathor1]

You realise though that these economic arguments are not terribly convincing? What difference does it make to the economy whether you spend your pilgrim euros during one single long slot of 6 months (long stay visa) or during two separate and shorter blocks of 3 months (90/180 Schengen visa), with either option walked during an overall period that is equivalent to about one year? Your modest contribution to the national annual GDP will be about the same in each case.

Also I doubt that the argument would be terribly convincing that, for religious reasons, you must walk from some random point (that is obviously not your front door when you have flown in from another continent) for 6 months in one go to Santiago, instead of breaking it up into two sections of about 3 months with a period of absence between the two blocks.

OTOH, if you want to stay for more than 3 months at a time because you want to study or participate in a research project, it is more plausible that you can't do this well with several months of interruption.

 

[Kathor1]

And another word of caution: Don't count on it that the person who deals with your long-stay visa application will simply melt away when you utter the words "Camino de Santiago" or "Chemin de Saint Jacques". These days, the consulates have outsourced their visa application process. In the UK, on behalf of Spain and France, it is BLS International and TLScontact. Their staff may never have heard of the Ways to Saint James. Buena suerte and Bonne chance!

 

[Stivandrer]

Hi - given a 2 year hiccup in our Camino plans we were hoping to ‘fill our boots’ this year However it seems as Brexited Brits ()we can stay for 90 days on a tourist visa in any 180 days - meaning our plans to fit in 2 Caminos this year may be scuppered. I was reading that travel ‘for religious reasons’ may be grounds for a longer visa - would walking a Camino qualify? Can anyone with experience of post-Brexit travel offer advice or suggestions on how to legitimately extend our stay, or do we have to spend 90 days at home before returning?

Schengen Visa for Religious Purposes

Schengen Visa for Religious Purposes | Religious Purpose Schengen Visa Rules, Visa Fee, Visa Requirements and Eligibility Criteria.

www.schengenvisas.com

 

[Kathor1]

Schengen Visa for Religious Purposes

Schengen Visa for Religious Purposes | Religious Purpose Schengen Visa Rules, Visa Fee, Visa Requirements and Eligibility Criteria.

www.schengenvisas.com

I've said this before: Many of these "Schengen visa" websites are click-bait and they make a lot of words about nothing. This link merely describes a standard 90/180 Schengen visa. Depending on your nationality, you benefit from the Schengen visa waiver program or you must apply for a short stay 90/180 Schengen visa where you must justify a reason for your visit. The majority of non-EU forum members, including UK members, do not have to apply for a 90/180 visa and to do not have to give a reason for their visit to the Schengen area.

The first few words of this link say it already:

What is a Religious Purposes Schengen Visa?​

A kind of short term (Type C) visa allowing you access to the Schengen area for up to 90 days within a 180-day period for religious purposes​

​

@VNwalking mentioned it already in post #3 of this thread: the religious and cultural visa has the same time limitation as the general one.

Type C visas do not bring you any advantage if you want to stay for more than 90 days at a time or within any 180 days period. You would want a type D visa.

 

[Kathor1]

So, to sum up (corrections welcome):

• The OP is a UK national. The UK does not have any old bilateral visa waiver agreements with an EU/Schengen country that anybody knows of.
  As a UK national, the OP is a third-country national who does not have to apply for a short-term visa. Without any further formalities, the OP can travel to one of the 26 EU/Schengen countries and walk Caminos within this Schengen area for up to 90 days in one go or in separate blocks that must not add up to more than 90 days during any period of 180 days.
  
  
• There are no laws about religious visas that anybody knows of first-hand and for certain that would allow to walk a Camino for longer than 90 days (continuously or within 180 days).
  
  
• The OP can get a residence permit in an EU/Schengen country but we are vague on the details it would require. It would mean moving to an EU country and registering with the authorities as a resident.
  
  
• There is on online Schengen calculator that allows you to see how much "in" days you are still allowed from any date onwards. There are apps for calculations in the context of the 90/180 Schengen rule.
  
  
• There are short-stay C visas (uniform Schengen visa for up to 90 days), long-stay D visas (different national visas for stays of more than 90 days) and residence permits.

 

[Kathor1]

I'm back . I now know more about long term visa (LTV) for EU/Schengen countries than I ever need to know.

First of all, there's plenty of info on the net.

Second, instead of going by generalised info on social media, if you are really interested in pursuing this option, focus straight away on your own personal situation: Your nationality and the country for which and from which you want to get a LTV.

There is a great variation between EU/Schengen countries as to their conditions and modalities for issuing LTV or D visas. For some countries, for example Germany and Spain, LTV and residence permit appear to be closely connected. These long stay visa options do not seem to be geared to visitors who want to roam around for more than 3 months without a fixed abode that is registered with a local authority. Does not mean that you can't try, of course. Best of luck and please report back!

 

[Molly Cassidy]

These long stay visa options do not seem to be geared to visitors who want to roam around for more than 3 months without a fixed abode that is registered with a local authority.

Yes, I was thinking about this too. Usually you have to register in any country you stay in for more than 3 months and you are expected to have an address. Even EU citizens are supposed to register in other EU countries, I think, but many don't bother.

 

[Kathor1]

Yes, I was thinking about this too. Usually you have to register in any country you stay in for more than 3 months and you are expected to have an address. Even EU citizens are supposed to register in other EU countries, I think, but many don't bother.

Exactly. Major difference:

EU citizens or EU residents carry their ID and there is no indication about when they entered another EU country and how long they have been staying there without registering.

Non-citizens and non-residents carry their passport. It has an Entry stamp and it may even have a Visa sticker. Easy to check whether they are complying with the law and with registration requirements!

 

[trecile]

lso I doubt that the argument would be terribly convincing that, for religious reasons, you must walk from some random point (that is obviously not your front door when you have flown in from another continent) for 6 months in one go to Santiago, instead of breaking it up into two sections of about 3 months with a period of absence between the two blocks.

For that matter, when the Cathedral only requires a walk of 100 km to receive a Compostela I can't see that one could argue for a longer stay for "religious reasons."

 

[Kathor1]

For that matter, when the Cathedral only requires a walk of 100 km to receive a Compostela I can't see that one could argue for a longer stay for "religious reasons."

I agree in principle but see it a bit differently. People may feel, on a personal level, that they must walk for more than 90 days, that they are called to do so or made a vow to do so. But for a religious purpose to be recognised as a motive and justification for obtaining a long stay visa, I guess such an endeavour would need to have a bit more official recognition like say the hajj (and that's not 90+ days on foot, btw). Imho, this avenue has a dead end.

If people want to try to get a long term visa for a really long walk to Santiago, or several long walks within a short timeframe, their chances would, imho, probably be higher with a well documented justification for a touristic trip with a cultural-historical background.

So my advice is: In your visa application, when you chose the reason for it, click on "Tourism" and not on "Other".

 

[Molly Cassidy]

It’s 90 days at any point looking back 180 days, so you would exceed that with 90 days in your first 150 days (60 on, 60 off, 30 on).

That's only 90 days.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Wow - it takes some thinking to get around that - so say we did 60 days, Then after 60 days at home, did another 30 days. Back home for 60 days, and looking back 180, we would only have done 60 in that window? Am I doing thst correctly?

Here's an example of using my tool from post #66 on the first page of this thread but simplified by using a 9 days out of 18 instead of 90 out of 180. So you were wondering about 60 in, 60 out and then 30 in. I'm transforming that to 6, 6, 3. H stands for home (or out) and E stands for Europe (or in, but I should have used S for Schengen). The two numbers on each line indicate day (or line) number and then the number of days spent in the Schengen area within the 18 day window. Line 0 is there to show you haven't spent any time in the area within the last 18 days.

HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH 0 0
EHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH 1 1
EEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH 2 2
EEEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH 3 3
EEEEHHHHHHHHHHHHHH 4 4
EEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHHH 5 5
EEEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHH 6 6
Now you have 6 days in.
HEEEEEEHHHHHHHHHHH 7 6
HHEEEEEEHHHHHHHHHH 8 6
HHHEEEEEEHHHHHHHHH 9 6
HHHHEEEEEEHHHHHHHH 10 6
HHHHHEEEEEEHHHHHHH 11 6
HHHHHHEEEEEEHHHHHH 12 6
Now you have 6 days in followed
by 6 days home. You can spend
more time in.
EHHHHHHEEEEEEHHHHH 13 7
EEHHHHHHEEEEEEHHHH 14 8
EEEHHHHHHEEEEEEHHH 15 9
You have 9 days in an 18 day window.
You have to leave.
HEEEHHHHHHEEEEEEHH 16 9
HHEEEHHHHHHEEEEEEH 17 9
HHHEEEHHHHHHEEEEEE 18 9
On day 19 the last E disappears.
You can re-enter.
EHHHEEEHHHHHHEEEEE 19 9
EEHHHEEEHHHHHHEEEE 20 9
And so on.

 

[Glenshiro]

I am a UK citizen - but my father was Irish and I have an Irish passport (as do my children and grandchildren.) Solves the whole Schengen problem. Thanks, Dad!

 

[Corned Beef]

I am a UK citizen - but my father was Irish and I have an Irish passport (as do my children and grandchildren.) Solves the whole Schengen problem. Thanks, Dad!

That's interesting. I knew that children and grandchildren of someone born on the island could apply but not great-grandchildren. How did that work?

 

[Molly Cassidy]

That's interesting. I knew that children and grandchildren of someone born on the island could apply but not great-grandchildren. How did that work?

It depends when you got citizenship. If you were a citizen when your children were born, they can get citizenship too, but existing children don't. My mother has applied for Irish citizenship, but I can't. if she had applied before I was born I would also have it.

 

[Glenshiro]

That's interesting. I knew that children and grandchildren of someone born on the island could apply but not great-grandchildren. How did that work?

Molly Cassidy is right - I obtained an Irish passport many years ago as of right (child of an Irish citizen) and promptly registered my then young children's Foreign Births with the Irish Embassy. When my younger daughter gave birth to my granddaughter a couple of years ago, she was already an Irish citizen, and automatically transferred it to her daughter, my granddaughter, who has also been registered as a Foreign Birth (although it took two years to do it, thanks to Covid!)

So my granddaughter can pass on Irish citizenship to any children she has. Unfortunately, I cannot pass Irish citizenship to my wife, nor my daughter to her husband, which may make for some interesting experiences when we travel to the EU and my wife and son-in-law have to join the Undesirable Aliens queue (or whatever term they decide to use for UK citizens.)

 

[naplesdon]

If you need to remain longer than 90 days in Europe, then you must apply for a residency permit according to the Schengen visa website.

I am only going to wade into this thread with my own personal experience with a resident's visa in France. I had one for several years and there was a requirement to renew it every year in the same month it was issued, otherwise you needed to start the process all over again outside of France. The French Consulate in Miami accepted my application and it is fairly onerous with documents among them that you have health insurance, an income to support yourself, an address and utility bills to prove you are actually living at that address. I honestly don't think they would accept someone who is homeless wandering around with a backpack, IMHO!
I missed out on one very big benefit of the resident visa, that being I could have walked across the hallway at the Prefect's Office in Bayonne and turned in my Florida driver's license for a French driver's license. Year two that was no longer an option, so I had to take the written test (en francaise) and the driving test, even though I was 70+ years old. I flunked the driving test because I was in a ridiculously small car and the tester demanded that i turn on the a/c, I stalled out in a busy roundabout.

 

[Barbara]

Hmm. I have a British passport and live in France on a permanent resident basis. I had understood that I still only got the 90 days in other Schengen countries. Is this correct? Not that it matters, really as who is to notice me crossing internal borders? Still, it would be good to know.

 

[Molly Cassidy]

Hmm. I have a British passport and live in France on a permanent resident basis. I had understood that I still only got the 90 days in other Schengen countries. Is this correct? Not that it matters, really as who is to notice me crossing internal borders? Still, it would be good to know.

Yes, that is my understanding. I am also a UK citizen residing in the EU. However, I don't think it's really enforced.

I had a little incident last summer. At the time I had a residence permit in Latvia and visited my parents in Greece for approx. 90 day in the summer. During my stay in Greece I had to travel to the UK and Ireland for a couple of weeks. When I tried to leave Greece, I didn't have a stamp in my passport, because I arrived from another Schengen state. But when I showed them my Latvian residence permit they just let it go. They still couldn't tell how long I had been in Greece.

If you stay in the Schengen zone all the time, nobody ever checks.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

Yes, that is my understanding. I am also a UK citizen residing in the EU. However, I don't think it's really enforced

My understanding is the exact opposite and this seems to be supported by your Greece experience.

If you have the right to reside in one Schengen country then you also have the right of free movement between Schengen countries.

Essentially this gives you a restricted right to be anywhere in the Schengen zone but you may not have other rights.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

Hmm. I have a British passport and live in France on a permanent resident basis. I had understood that I still only got the 90 days in other Schengen countries. Is this correct? Not that it matters, really as who is to notice me crossing internal borders? Still, it would be good to know.

If you have permanent residence in France then you are also entitled to be anywhere else within the Schengen zone because of the free movement agreement. You are not restricted to 90 days anywhere else in the zone.

Think of it like those of us who don't have residency. If we are from a visa waiver county like most of us are then when we enter the zone we get a stamp that records our authority to enter the country that we have just entered. There are not yet any EU visas/entry permits they are still all issued by individual countries. Then if that country is part of the Schengen agreement you are then free to travel to any other Schengen country within the time limits of your visa or permit.

If you happen to have a permanent visa then you can be anywhere anytime.

Of course that doesn't necessarily give you other rights such as the right to work, the right to vote and possibly not the right to medical services or other forms of social welfare.

 

[Kathor1]

Hmm. I have a British passport and live in France on a permanent resident basis. I had understood that I still only got the 90 days in other Schengen countries. Is this correct? Not that it matters, really as who is to notice me crossing internal borders? Still, it would be good to know.

Erm ... was there not plenty of information in the context of the Brexit negotiations and aftermath? I really don't know, I had not even thought about it. There are literally dozens of different residence permits / Aufenthaltstitel / titre de séjour / άδειες διαμονής / uzturēšanās atļauju forma with different rights attached to them when you are a third country national staying in the EU. UK nationals who resided in the EU before the Brexit date have been given extra rights. Any third country national who has been staying legally for 5+ years has practically the same freedom of movement rights as a citizen of the Union. You need to check what kind of permit you have.

You are right, though, there is next to no control of touristic trips and touristic stays and presumably zilch interest in wasting human or financial resources on this. Where it matters: When you actually want to move to another EU country than the one you live in and want to work there, have your "centre of living" there and have access rights to that country's social security systems. Freedom of movement is an exclusive right of the EU citizens and while it now covers all aspects of life, it is primarily for working citizens.

BTW, mine is an E+ card and I have to renew it every 5 years but I am a Union citizen. Citizenship of the Union is the 'proper' word because, strictly speaking, there is no such thing as an EU national or an EU passport.

 

[Barbara]

HI Kathar1na

Yes, lots of information and all conflicting. I have a "permanent" Titre de Séjour which has to be renewed every ten years ;-)
I'm pre Brexit by thirty years. So yes, I get all the extra rights. It was never made clear on the UK Gubmint site or indeed anywhere else I looked (and yes, I do speak and read French fluently) whether the 90 day rule applied for tourism purposes. I just wondered if anyone had seen a definitive ruling. Not that it matters in the least, as I will continue to drive, fly, walk and cycle within the EU boundaries as I always have done. Firmly presenting my little card together with my passport if i visit the UK, and equally firmly not allowing it to be stamped on departure or return to France.
Cheers
Barbara

 

[Molly Cassidy]

Erm ... was there not plenty of information in the context of the Brexit negotiations and aftermath? I really don't know, I had not even thought about it.

Yes, loads but, like Covid restrictions, it kept changing. I have a Student residence permit in Latvia and a (now) Greek residence permit, which says article 50. But, my parents who have been in Greece have different permits to me in that theirs say "Permanent" and are valid for 10 years and mine doesn't say anything and is valid for 5 years. My Latvian one says "Temporary" and is valid for 5 years.

 

[Kathor1]

@Barbara, you are practically one of us. @Molly Cassidy, interesting, I had been wondering what your status is because you had mentioned your stays in Latvia and Greece and your UK/Ireland family background. I didn't know that the permanent permits can be prolonged by 10 years. I only knew that in some EU countries it's 5 years and I had assumed that's the way it is everywhere.

I never know the exact words so I had to google it: United in Diversity, that's what we are .

BTW, in Bulgarian, one of the 24 official languages, it is Единство в многообразието.

 

[Kathor1]

Firmly presenting my little card together with my passport if i visit the UK, and equally firmly not allowing it to be stamped on departure or return to France.

Slightly different from your situation but basically the same: I've been trying to imprint this on the memory banks of family members with dual nationality: In St Pancras, as well as on the way back while on EU soil, you ought to show your British passport to UK border control and your EU passport to French border control. I think they messed it up each time and now have stamps where there should not be any.

 

[Molly Cassidy]

Right, but it’s 90 days in 150 days, which is over the limit.

Only if you spend the next 30 days in the Schengen Zone. If you go home at the end of the 150 days, it's fine!

 

[Shazenalan]

Here's an example of using my tool from post #66 on the first page of this thread but simplified by using a 9 days out of 18 instead of 90 out of 180. So you were wondering about 60 in, 60 out and then 30 in. I'm transforming that to 6, 6, 3. H stands for home (or out) and E stands for Europe (or in, but I should have used S for Schengen). The two numbers on each line indicate day (or line) number and then the number of days spent in the Schengen area within the 18 day window. Line 0 is there to show you haven't spent any time in the area within the last 18 days.

HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH 0 0
EHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH 1 1
EEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH 2 2
EEEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH 3 3
EEEEHHHHHHHHHHHHHH 4 4
EEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHHH 5 5
EEEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHH 6 6
Now you have 6 days in.
HEEEEEEHHHHHHHHHHH 7 6
HHEEEEEEHHHHHHHHHH 8 6
HHHEEEEEEHHHHHHHHH 9 6
HHHHEEEEEEHHHHHHHH 10 6
HHHHHEEEEEEHHHHHHH 11 6
HHHHHHEEEEEEHHHHHH 12 6
Now you have 6 days in followed
by 6 days home. You can spend
more time in.
EHHHHHHEEEEEEHHHHH 13 7
EEHHHHHHEEEEEEHHHH 14 8
EEEHHHHHHEEEEEEHHH 15 9
You have 9 days in an 18 day window.
You have to leave.
HEEEHHHHHHEEEEEEHH 16 9
HHEEEHHHHHHEEEEEEH 17 9
HHHEEEHHHHHHEEEEEE 18 9
On day 19 the last E disappears.
You can re-enter.
EHHHEEEHHHHHHEEEEE 19 9
EEHHHEEEHHHHHHEEEE 20 9
And so on.

Oh my gosh - thank you - that helps to illustrate how it works I downloaded the iphone app and the results still mystify me - but are looking good in terms of our plans

 

[tomnorth]

Only if you spend the next 30 days in the Schengen Zone. If you go home at the end of the 150 days, it's fine!

My bad. You’re correct.

 

[Jsharing]

My Schengen tool. It is intended to be used as an educational tool. Don't use it for real. I will edit with corrections as long as the forum software allows me to.

Get 270 tiles like in a Scrabble game and create a rack for them, again like in Scrabble but much, much longer. The rack must hold 180 tiles, no more, no less. Paint 90 tiles green and 180 tiles red.

The setup consists of going to the leftmost end of the rack. If you are currently in the Schengen area or were for any minute of the day put a green tile there, if not put up a red tile. Next place another tile to the right of the last one to represent where you were the day before; green if any time was spent in the Schengen area, red if not. Repeat until 180 tiles have been put up. Place the remaining tiles in a bucket at the right end of the rack so a sliding tile will fall into the bucket. The rack may end up having several sections of multiple green tiles separated by red tiles. This is not abnormal.

To use this tool: Each morning push all the tiles over one to the right so the rightmost tile falls off into the bucket. Now count the number of green tiles in the bucket. That is the number of days you can spend in the Schengen area. If you will be in the Schengen area then put up a green tile in the now empty leftmost place, if not place a red tile there. Repeat each morning.

Being a visual/kinetic learner, this is great. Yes, I am grappling with the issue of being in and out of Schengen countries in the 180 days. The information I could find via government sites did not spell this out, was rather generic. Thank you!!!! Now, I know where I stand, unfortunately my tickets have already been purchased. My 180 days ends June 5, 2022, I will have used 64 of the 90 days. If I am still in Schengen country on June 6, 2022 does my next 180 days begin then?

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

My 180 days ends June 5, 2022, I will have used 64 of the 90 days. If I am still in Schengen country on June 6, 2022 does my next 180 days begin then?

No. First, you do not get a block of 180 days followed by another block of them; it is a rolling 180. Secondly, the 180 days do not go forward; they go backward.

If you are still in on June 6th the backward 180 count will be 65 in, 115 out. You're good to stay.

For another example, say you want to go back into the zone again for three weeks 90 days after leaving on June 5th (somewhere around the end of August or beginning of September). You count backward 180 days from that date, 90 out, 64 in and 26 out = 180 days total with only 64 in. You will be allowed in. Next you check the end of your trip for the 180 days backward, 21 in, 90 out, 64 in and 5 out = 180 days with only 85 days in. You are okay for the trip.

If you hop in and out a lot for short stays you have a lot more computing to do so you should check for each day you will be in the zone to be on the safe side. Also, don't plan things right up to the 90 day limit; a volcanic eruption might delay your flight home by a few days.