A well-dressed man with a bird on his hand

[Bert45]

I took the photo in the church of Santa María Salomé in Santiago. I carelessly forgot to make a note of any details. I did a google reverse image search and found an almost identical photo, claiming that this figure was San Julián. On fundacionjacobea.org, I found this: "In the interior [of the church of Santa María Salomé] there is a small chapel next to the presbytery, dedicated to Our Lady and San Joseph, with a vault of the XVI century whose nerves are supported by Renaissance-style corbels. The chapel is presided over by a baroque altarpiece of stipes from the second half of the 18th century dedicated to San Julián. This altarpiece always contains an anecdotal detail: between multiple faces carved in relief and gold, some with aquiline nose and Aztec features, there are two faces of angels wearing spectacles."
I am confused that a chapel dedicated to Our Lady and Saint Joseph (or San José) should have an altarpiece presided over by neither of them, but by San Julián. Let that pass, for now. No description of the saint is offered, but the interweb can supply a 4th-century parricide, known as St Julian the Hospitaller, sometimes represented as "a young man holding a hawk on his finger". There are 12 other canonised Julians, but I doubt that there is another known for carrying a bird on his finger. Those aren't the clothes of a 4th-century gentleman. I'm no ornithologist, but that bird looks more like a dove than a hawk, and ¿don't people hunting with hawks usually have them on their forearm, protected by a leather sleeve, or gauntlet? The story of St Julian does not involve hunting with a hawk. And in his right hand he is holding a blue stick – it looks like a conductor's baton.
In case you are not familiar with 'stipes' (singular, plural 'stipites'), I'll save you the trouble of googling it: it's the vertical beam of a cross used for crucifixion. It looks as though fundacionjacobea.org think 'stipes' is plural.
Can anyone explain the 'hawk', the blue baton, or the clothes?

 

[pelerine]

In art clothes are often painted/sculpted(?) in the style of the era when the artist lived. As to the rest I do not know.

 

[El Cascayal]

Can anyone explain the 'hawk', the blue baton, or the clothes?

It was George Washington on his first Camino.

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

Can anyone explain the 'hawk',

In my honest opinion the " hawk " is a dove and on this photo it's different and white.

 

[Pelegrin]

Julián el Hospitalario - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre

es.wikipedia.org

The saint is Julian el Hospitalero. There is also a version in English " Julian the Hospitaller". I put the Spanish version because in " Iconografia de San Julian el Hospitalero" there is a photo very similar from the church of San Xian de Romai near Caldas de Rei where the baton is a sword. According to the legend, the baton should be a sword also in Santa Maria Salomé. The hawk represents hunting in general because he was told by a deer, when he was chasing it, that he was going to kill his parents, what finally did by accident.
This is an European medieval legend, so obviouly the clothes are out of date in both photos.
Ho opened an albergue with his wife and helped a lot of travellers. I don´t know if he is officially´considered the patron saint of hospitaleros. There are a lot of villages named San Xian and San Xiao in Galicia.

 

[Bert45]

In art clothes are often painted/sculpted(?) in the style of the era when the artist lived. As to the rest I do not know.

That seems a likely explanation. The sculptor would probably not have access to books illustrating 4th-century clothes.

 

[Bert45]

Julián el Hospitalario - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre

es.wikipedia.org

The saint is Julian el Hospitalero. There is also a version in English " Julian the Hospitaller". I put the Spanish version because in " Iconografia de San Juan el Hospitalero" there is a photo very similar from the church of San Xian de Romai near Caldas de Rei where the baton is a sword. According to the legend, the baton should be a sword also in Santa Maria Bartolomé. The hawk represents hunting in general because he was told by a deer, when he was chasing it, that he was going to kill his parents, what finally did by accident.

The caption for the iconografia on the Spanish Wiki page must be a typo (Juan for Julián). These sculptors don't make life easy, ¿do they? From a hawk (that looks like a dove) on a finger, I am supposed to realise that it refers to a talking deer when he was hunting. I would guess that the statue originally held a sword, but it has been lost, and somebody thought that the blue stick was a satisfactory substitute.

But I think that my questions (clothes, hawk, stick) have been answered. Thanks, forum buddies.

 

[Pelegrin]

The caption for the iconografia on the Spanish Wiki page must be a typo (Juan for Julian)

Juan ?. Maybe yo mean Xian that is Julian in Galego.

 

[Bert45]

In my honest opinion the " hawk " is a dove and on this photo it's different and white.

I think you're right, Peter. The clothes of the man in your photo are remarkably similar to those in my photo. And the sword, if it was ever a sword, has been replaced by a stick or wand as in my photo. You are much more likely to have a dove settle on your finger than a hawk. But perhaps the sculptor had misunderstood the brief, Chinese whispers (¿Am I allowed to say that?) and so on. Or, "I'm not very good at doing hawks, ¿can I do a dove, instead?"
Where was your photo taken?

 

[Bert45]

Juan ?. Maybe yo mean Xian that is Julian in Galego.

"Iconografía de San Juan el Hospitalario" copied and pasted from es.wikipedia.org/wiki/ page: Julián_el_Hospitalario

​

 

[Pelegrin]

"Iconografía de San Juan el Hospitalario" copied and pasted from es.wikipedia.org/wiki/ page: Julián_el_Hospitalario

​

You are right. Thank you

 

[lalaone]

The question is well answered.

Wild, I was just reading about Saint Julian this morning in a different context. I now see he must be one and the same. The following tale comes from Olav Audunssøn by Sigrid Undset (Nobel Prize for Literature, 1928), set around the year 1290 AD and seen through Norwegian eyes of the time. My takeaway was that Julian's life must have been relatable enough to spread all across Europe, with different aspects emphasized at different times/places. I never would have known about the bird and now wish to learn more. Thank you @Bert45

“No, no. You and Ingunn have been my best friends. But I am neither pious nor good. And I often tire of everything. I wished that I could change the way that I am and become a harsh man when I failed to be kind. I wanted to let God judge people instead of doing so myself. There was once a holy man in France, a hermit. On behalf of God, he had taken on the loving deed of offering shelter to folks who traveled through the forest where he lived. One evening a beggar appeared and asked to take lodging with the hermit. Julian was his name, I think. The stranger was covered with leprous sores; he was ravaged by the disease and had a vile and vulgar way of speaking. He did nothing but complain about the kindness the hermit showed toward him. Then Julian helped the beggar undress. He washed and tended to the man’s sores and kissed each one of them before putting the man to bed. But the beggar claimed that he was freezing and ordered Julian to warm him by lying down at his side. Julian did as the man said. Then everything that was unclean and hideous and coarse-sounding slid right off the stranger as if fastened to an invisible cloak. And Julian saw that it was Christ himself he held in his arms.”

 

[Kathor1]

San Xulián, in the given regional context, is a saint with a legend and an imagined biography that is not fixed but fluid. This saint's local legend is sometimes a combination of elements taken from the legends of different saints as known elsewhere. Depending on the local version, San Xulián is said to have lived in France or in Belgium or in Egypt.

Some versions deal only with his life as a hospitalero while in other versions this is combined with erroneously killing his parents when he mistook them for his wife and a lover. He is often depicted as a young man from a wealthy family - hence the expensive clothes. In statues of this saint, sometimes the emphasis is on him having been on a hunt when he heard the prophecy, sometimes the emphasis is on his being a martyr.

The bird does not play a role in the versions of his legend. It can be a falcon because falcons were associated with hunting for the wealthy but it has also morphed into other birds, in particular a dove. In his right hand, he can hold a shotgun (as a hunter) or a palm branch (standard symbol for martyrdom) and it depends on the artist's creativity how this palm branch looks like. If he holds a sword it is sometimes wrapped up - it is most likely that it refers to the killing of the parents although a sword is also a standard symbol for martyrdom when the saint was killed by the sword.

Galicia and France have each numerous villages and towns named after this saint / with him as their patron saint, something like 150 and 80 if I remember correctly.

The statues shown below are from Galicia, showing him, in addition to his other attributes, with palm branch; with colourful bird; with shotgun; with palm branch; with sword; and with another palm branch.

 

[Bert45]

The question is well answered.

Wild, I was just reading about Saint Julian this morning in a different context. I now see he must be one and the same. The following tale comes from Olav Audunssøn by Sigrid Undset (Nobel Prize for Literature, 1928), set around the year 1290 AD and seen through Norwegian eyes of the time. My takeaway was that Julian's life must have been relatable enough to spread all across Europe, with different aspects emphasized at different times/places. I never would have known about the bird and now wish to learn more. Thank you @Bert45

“No, no. You and Ingunn have been my best friends. But I am neither pious nor good. And I often tire of everything. I wished that I could change the way that I am and become a harsh man when I failed to be kind. I wanted to let God judge people instead of doing so myself. There was once a holy man in France, a hermit. On behalf of God, he had taken on the loving deed of offering shelter to folks who traveled through the forest where he lived. One evening a beggar appeared and asked to take lodging with the hermit. Julian was his name, I think. The stranger was covered with leprous sores; he was ravaged by the disease and had a vile and vulgar way of speaking. He did nothing but complain about the kindness the hermit showed toward him. Then Julian helped the beggar undress. He washed and tended to the man’s sores and kissed each one of them before putting the man to bed. But the beggar claimed that he was freezing and ordered Julian to warm him by lying down at his side. Julian did as the man said. Then everything that was unclean and hideous and coarse-sounding slid right off the stranger as if fastened to an invisible cloak. And Julian saw that it was Christ himself he held in his arms.”

And that, m'lud, is the case for the defence.

 

[Kathor1]

I would guess that the statue originally held a sword, but it has been lost, and somebody thought that the blue stick was a satisfactory substitute. But I think that my questions (clothes, hawk, stick) have been answered.

Really? A sword that got lost and replaced by a "blue stick"? That is your best effort after all the material that has been presented to you?

Would this be the position of hand and fingers of a man holding his heavy sword even when he is merely the statue of a man and not a real man?


Is the item even blue? Or is the colour on your photo distorted, due to light from a window or colour distortion of the camera used for taking the photo? Maybe the item is brown like in this photo of the very same statue of San Xulián?


Perhaps the "blue stick" is green or was once green, with two leaves at the top? What are some of the other San Xuliánes holding, like the one in the photo below - A plant? A flower? A lilly?


So many vital questions remaining - such uncertainty ... . And all the photos can be enlarged for a better view ...

 

[Kathor1]

And here is the pièce de résistance : the cousin of the Santa Maria Salomé's San Xulián.

This San Xulián lives in A Illa de Arousa where he is the patron saint. His local feast day is coming up: the 7th of January when he will be taken on a procession. A day of celebration that fills bars and restaurants from early in the morning until late into the night.

Everything is there, just like in the church in Santiago: the wealthy gentleman's clothes - 18th century; the bird; the hat taken off his head and held by his arm; the sword on his left side as part of his outfit; a flower (roses? lilies?) in his right hand.

​

 

[Pelegrin]

And here is the pièce de résistance : the cousin of the Santa Maria Salomé's San Xulián.

This San Xulián lives in A Illa de Arousa where he is the patron saint. His local feast day is coming up: the 7th of January when he will be taken on a procession. A day of celebration that fills bars and restaurants from early in the morning until late into the night.

Everything is there, just like in the church in Santiago: the wealthy gentleman's clothes - 18th century; the bird; the hat taken off his head; the sword on his left side as part of his outfit; a flower (roses? lilies?) in his right hand.

View attachment 182322​

So, apparently in Galicia San Xulian ( or San Xian) is always the Hospitaller that is different to San Julian de Cuenca ( for example).

 

[Bert45]

But I think that my questions (clothes, hawk, stick) have been answered. Thanks, forum buddies.

I've changed my mind.

 

[Bert45]

Julián el Hospitalario - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre

es.wikipedia.org

According to the legend, the baton should be a sword also in Santa Maria Bartolomé. That puzzled me, but then I forgot about it. I just realised "Bartolomé" = Salomé.

 

[Bert45]

In my honest opinion the " hawk " is a dove and on this photo it's different and white.

I could not believe that this is the same statue in the same church as my photo. A slightly different angle and slightly underexposed. I had to do several retakes before I was convinced.

 

[Pelegrin]

Bartolomé = Salomé. Yes I am sorry again. My opinion about the stick in churches with no sword is that it represents the sword because a sword in a church is too violent. But is just my opinion.

 

[Kathor1]

I've changed my mind.

The power of pictures is greater than the power of words, is it?

Here (see below) is another San Julián. He is treasured by the parish of Serantes in Galicia. He is dressed in a clearly Spanish fashion of a past era. Look how gingerly he holds his palm frond - the symbol of his martyrdom. Isn't it just the same position as in the case of the "blue stick"?

The description of the Saint Julian of the Serantes parish says: Saint Julian. Husband of Saint Basilisa. He was born in Antioch and suffered martyrdom in the time of Diocletian's persecution. The cult of this saint in Galicia originated in the Benedictine monastery of Samos, located on the main medieval route into Galicia. His feast day is celebrated on 7 January and he is the patron saint of 122 parishes in Galicia.

One always has to bear in mind that there is often no absolutely identical and unique description for these saints and their lives. The statues are not a photo-realistic representation of a real person. They are highly symbolic. Local versions of the legend about the same saint vary. Sometimes considerably. They are saints. They are intercessors. They serve as the patron saint of the village or town. They are patrimony to be proud of. That's what matters. Not the minute details of their lives, whether real or imagined.

 

[Bert45]

The power of pictures is greater than the power of words, is it?

A bit of both, Kathor1. I am not convinced that the bird is a hawk, but I am convinced that the blue (or brown) stick is not in place of a sword.

Here (see below) is another San Julián. He is treasured by the parish of Serantes in Galicia. He is dressed in a clearly Spanish fashion of a past era. Look how gingerly he holds his palm frond - the symbol of his martyrdom. Isn't it just the same position as in the case of the "blue stick"?

The general version (I use 'general' in a very loose way, to mean the story that I have read most often) of the story of San Julián ends with him being forgiven when a leper reveals himself as an angel. So, in this version, he did not suffer martyrdom, so no palm frond required. [His mother and father deserve the palm fronds. Why have they not been canonised?] As you have said, there are various versions of the story of San Julián, and we cannot know which one the artist was intending to convey when he made the statue in Santa María Salomé. I've not read the one where he conducted an angelic choir with a colour-changing baton, while a white dove perched on a finger of his other hand. We have only two equations in three unknowns, so a solution is impossible. It's good to talk, though, ¿isn't it?

 

[Pelegrin]

In Galicia, there are a lot of parishes (3771), 40% of them ( 1510) have a patron saint, 26% the Apostol. I don' t think that with so many statues all of them are " normalized".

 

[Kathor1]

I am not convinced that the bird is a hawk

Did anybody say that the bird of the statue you photographed is a hawk? I don't think so.

You wrote: "the interweb can supply [...], sometimes represented as "a young man holding a hawk on his finger". You probably saw this text on the EN Wikipedia because the exact same phrase can be found there in the section "Attributes", i.e. symbols or items used to characterise saints in paintings and statues. You could edit the Wikipedia article and add that it is not always a hawk or a falcon but that it can be a dove or another bird.

Falconry is still a hobby today but in hunting it had its peak in the Middle Ages and during Absolutism and it lost its role with the development of shotguns. The drawing below shows what a Saint Julian holding a falcon or a hawk looks like - the sword serves as a martyr symbol in this image.

BTW, whoever wrote "a hawk on his finger" on Wikipedia didn't have much of a clue, I guess. Falconers wear a large leather glove - you can see its long cuff in the drawing.

 

[Bert45]

In Galicia, there are a lot of parishes (3771), 40% of them ( 1510) have a patron saint, 26% the Apostol. I don' t think that with so many statues all of them are " normalized".

Hello, Pelegrin! Who do you mean by 'the Apostol'? I would assume that you meant Santiago, but, since this thread is all about San Julián (who wasn't an Apostol), and, to a lesser extent, Santa María Salomé, I cannot be sure. And I don't understand what you mean by 'normalized'. If you are referring to statues of San Julián, and you are saying that you would not expect them to all be the same, I agree, but it would be nice (for me) to know what the attributes of the statue in the church of Santa María Salomé mean. The general story of San Julián reads more like a fairy tale (Jack and the Beanstalk) than a historical account, so anything is possible – talking deer, blunderbuss in the 4th century, killing your parents without checking their faces.

 

[Kathor1]

apparently in Galicia San Xulian ( or San Xian) is always the Hospitaller that is different to San Julian de Cuenca ( for example).

@Pelegrin, this was interesting. I learnt a bit more about Galicia and its traditions and a lot about saints called Julian that I had not even been aware of. I am certainly not an expert but from what I see San Julian de Cuenca was a bishop who lived in the 12th century - he was born in Burgos and became eventually bishop of Cuenca. So he is documented and he is always shown in ecclesiastical robes such as a bishop or a priest.

The San Julian/Xulián/Xián of this thread is a more vague and more legendary figure. I have not noticed such statues in costumes of the 17th or 18th century elsewhere (it doesn't mean that they don't exist though) and I wonder whether they are specific to Galicia. The popularity of saints varies with time and by regions. I've come across a paper (in Spanish), published by a member of the University of Santiago, that deals with the devotion to San Julián in the Galicia of the Baroque era (i.e. the time where they wore such costumes as in the photos) and the importance of local and regional tradition in connection with the church reforms of the time (Council of Trient).

The article speaks about a labyrinth of hagiography.

The introduction says that the devotion to Saint Julian the martyr arrived in Galicia early (during Christian history) and came from the West. Then, in the 12 century, another Saint Julian appeared, apocryphal, and called "Hospitalero". The meeting of the two in this religious-cultural environment lead to the creation of a new personality in Galicia, a mixture of both, fictional, but so beloved by the faithful that the Church authorities (Tridentine reform) allowed the people to keep it on the altars.

Thanks for your comments. I always appreciate it when they come from someone who knows more about Galicia and its traditions than all of us taken together.

 

[Kathor1]

a paper (in Spanish), published by a member of the University of Santiago, that deals with the devotion to San Julián in the Galicia of the Baroque era

LOL, there is a photo of @Bert45's San Julián on page 25. In this photo the bird is white, and the item in the right hand is brown. The text says:

Desconocemos sus imágines primitivas, pero en el XVIII nos encontramos ya en ambos casos con el caballero que sujeta la palma del mártir, convertida en el compostelano es una rama indefinida, y una paloma.​

​

May I modestly say that @Peter Fransiscus and I have been right all along: it's a dove and an indeterminate branch from a plant. Note the reference to the martyr's palm leaf.

 

[Bert45]

Yes, it was on the English Wiki page that I read that one of San Julián's attributes was a hawk on his finger. It was Pelegrin who suggested that the bird was a hawk because the saint had been hunting when the deer spoke to him. That seemed to make a bit of sense in a story that is full of nonsense. Why should he have a dove on his finger? I'm not suggesting that it is not a dove, just asking why he should be shown with a dove on his finger.
Is this right?: There were several (more than one, anyway) Julians who were martyred and canonised. Julian the Hospitaller was confused (in the sense of being muddled) with one of the martyred Julians, which is why he is sometimes shown with a palm frond.
I thought I was a bit confused when I started this thread. Now I am utterly baffled

 

[Pelegrin]

Thanks for your comments. I always appreciate it when they come from someone who knows more about Galicia and its traditions than all of us taken together.

Thank you for your informations too. I don' t know very much about saints in Galicia. I know things "in general " like in north Spain are more patron saints than virgenes in churches which is the opposite in the south.

 

[Kathor1]

"in general " like in north Spain are more patron saints than virgenes in churches which is the opposite in the south.

I had not been aware of this and I had not been aware of the popularity of this saint in Galicia. I enjoy learning more about "Land und Leute", i.e. country and people than that they drink café con leche and more than what five minutes of googling and a quick look into Wikipedia provide . Thanks again.

 

[Kathor1]

Here is the link to the paper mentioned earlier: The importance of tradition in the face of Tridentine renewal: devotion to St Julian in Barroque Galicia (in Spanish).

The author is a lecturer at the Santiago University. His doctoral thesis is about Religious Mentalities of the Ancien Régime in Western Galicia. "Ancien Régime" stands for 16th and 17th century I guess. The author is presumably more competent in the subject matter of Saint Julian in Galicia than the multitudes who fabricate short texts on websites and in Wikipedia.

If it still hasn't sunk in: This saint as he is known in Galicia is a hybrid of various legends and biographies of several saints and of ancient literary characters. He is fictional. There is no standard representation, neither in written literature and oral tradition nor in visual representation. There is no standard background story. There is incongruence but that does not mean that it is full of nonsense. This saint and the background are unfamiliar to us from further up north and from further away in general. We are not used to seeing statues of saints dressed as he is. I thought "Mozart" when I first saw the photo. We are taken aback and make even fun of it.

However, these statues and their narratives are part of popular piety with century old traditions anchored in the regional culture, and this saint is the 9th most popular saint in Galicia. It deserves respect.

 

[Bert45]

New information! I clicked on the link provided by Kathor1 to the paper by Domingo L. González Lopo. I found the photo of San Julián on p131, not p25. We must be reading different papers. But the caption to the photo (on p130) gave this piece of information dynamite: Pág. siguiente Fig. 3: San Julián del gremio de Herreros (Santiago de Compostela). In English: St Julian of the Guild of Blacksmiths. I didn't know that!

I did not want to cause offence when I said that the story of San Julián the Hospitalero was 'full of nonsense'. If people can ignore talking deer and men killing their parents without checking their faces, and being able to kill the first one without the other waking up and revealing their identity, fine. That deserves respect.

 

[VNwalking]

Fascinating rabbit hole, with thanks to @Kathor1 for teasing out the complex iconography.

I did not want to cause offence when I said that the story of San Julián the Hospitalero was 'full of nonsense'. If people can ignore talking deer and men killing their parents without checking their faces, and being able to kill the first one without the other waking up and revealing their identity, fine. That deserves respect.

I can give many examples of such nonsense from every one of the world's main religions, including Christianity. People still believe in all of them. So laugh if you like, but it's dismissing people's faith - which is a matter of heart, not a matter of fact and logic.