The price of coffee in Spain and the perplexing economics of it

[JustJack]

Stopped in at a Starbucks in Vancouver today. I don’t care for Starbucks but was with a friend who likes it. A latte or similar at Starbucks costs around €4. That’s a typical price for any coffee shop here. And that gets you your coffee in a disposable cup.

Compare that to Spain, where somehow you can walk into any bar or cafe, have a fresh ground cafe con leche, served in a proper ceramic cup that they’ll have to wash after, and that coffee costs around €1.30.

I’d love to know how Spain is able to sell coffee at less than half the price of North America, and presumably still make a profit.

 

[trecile]

Lots of food and drink items are quite a bit cheaper in Spain than in North America. Also coffee is much more basic in Spain - I heard a quote today that the different permutations of flavors, sizes, and strengths of Starbucks beverages can run into the millions. Have you ever heard someone in Spain order a grande triple half caf latte over light ice with two pumps of mocha and one pump of pumpkin spice? Plus the overhead of Spanish bars and cafes is much lower.

 

[Anhalter]

Coffee, for quite some time, has been one of the things served in bars and restaurants with the highest margain. As an anecdote, i remember a story from my childhood from a restaurant owner how the german counterpart of the IRS measured his water consumption to calculate how many coffees he could have sold and how many he put in his earnings report...
Or to put it differently: why do you think all those coffee chains sprung up in prime locations about two decades back? Because theres good money to be made. Easy as that.

As to the question why you are being charged 4€/$ for a cup: It's because people pay it. They are used to paying it and the establishment would (imho) be stupid not to take that money if people willingly give it.
And in some countries things are a bit different, Spain and Italy being examples, and coffee seems very cheap there.

Btw: same goes with water. It is not unusual to pay 7-8€ for a 0.7l bottle of water in germany. Compare that to spain where the put one of those 1.5l ones on the table and charge you 2.50€.

 

[trecile]

How about the cost of a glass of wine? Last night we had dinner at an average restaurant in Portland, Oregon and it was $8 for a half glass, and $14 for a full glass. And a full glass is about 6 ounces. We bought a bottle.

 

[JustOneGuy]

Stopped in at a Starbucks in Vancouver today. I don’t care for Starbucks but was with a friend who likes it. A latte or similar at Starbucks costs around €4. That’s a typical price for any coffee shop here. And that gets you your coffee in a disposable cup.

Compare that to Spain, where somehow you can walk into any bar or cafe, have a fresh ground cafe con leche, served in a proper ceramic cup that they’ll have to wash after, and that coffee costs around €1.30.

I’d love to know how Spain is able to sell coffee at less than half the price of North America, and presumably still make a profit.

In Italy is the same (actually you can find it at the bar for less than 1 €):

I have been friend with a waiter for a long time. It works like this:

1) The service is MUCH quicker and more efficient. Waiters "think" instead of writing . A single, well-trained waiter can make and serve 10 cups per minute, and even more if you go to a busy place, all with different options. Starbucks manages options in such a cumbersome way that they risk closing (see https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/25/...e_code=1.HU4.gUEs.5c6FgN4lrgsf&smid=url-share - I hope this actually happens...)

2) This is just a way to get people to come in and buy something else: e.g. a cornetto (in Italy), a bocadillo (in Spain).

3) You are not wasting the cup, spoon, etc., which is also really environmentally unsustainable. It costs a lot, while cleaning a cup in a machine is easy and quick.

4) there is no overhead for small family-ran coffee shop and bar.

I will conclude by mentioning that Starbucks, and other similar coffee chains (and others business as well...), has driven thousands of small family coffee shops out of business using a well-known strategy: I read an article when I lived in the UK, I think in The Guardian, that they fill an area with coffee shops, even separated by a few dozen meters (seen doing it while living in Cardiff, UK, for example). Some of these cafes go into debt, but it doesn't matter. The idea is that cut-throat competition makes it impossible for small family-run cafes to survive. So the small ones close. At that point Starbucks etc. can close the loss-making bars, remaining masters of the area and applying the prices they want. This practice has also been scrutinized by some legislators, but it is difficult to find a foothold to prevent it.

I think in Italy and Spain it has not worked because, among other things - taste apart... - customers prefer to establish a confidential and friendly relationship with those who serve them coffee, as is the tradition. And they obviously have no intention of spending 3 euros for a questionable cup of coffee served in a cardboard cup in a place that looks like an AirBnB....

 

[Robo]

I'm sure a lot has to do with the costs of running the business.
Prime locations = high rents.
Higher staff costs.
Higher costs of everything.

Meanwhile, in a small village in Spain, at a family run bar, we get a great coffee at €1.30 or €1.50 often with a free ice of cake!

I'm sure it's also got something to do with expected profit margins!

 

[Stephan the Painter]

Well, I think overall the US is more expensive than Spain. And in general in most of Europe, especially in the south alcohol and coffee are cheaper.

The markup for alcohol and coffee is enormous in the US. I used to work in a bar and for alcohol it was 400%. Probably higher nowadays.

But I would point out that many US coffee drinks are bigger and seems like there's a lot more coffee and other things going into those giant Starbucks coffees. What's really outrageous is the 3-4 dollars or so you usually pay for a tiny espresso.

It's one of the big draws for me that I can have a casual drink without breaking the bank in Spain or even Italy. I never just casually sit down in a restaurant in my area and have one beer because by the time it's all said and done it's usually at least $10. Pure coffee is usually three-four dollars. If I want something like a café con leche, it'll be more though.

 

[JustOneGuy]

I'm sure a lot has to do with the costs of running the business.
Prime locations = high rents.
Higher staff costs.
Higher costs of everything.

To be honest, I wouldn't be sure.

Taxes in Spain and Italy are much higher than in the UK or US, energy too and staff costs might be high as well as it is very protected (personnel does not live off tips...). But I could change idea after seeing some data as mine is a gut feeling opinion.

 

[Pilgrim9]

Stopped in at a Starbucks in Vancouver today. I don’t care for Starbucks but was with a friend who likes it. A latte or similar at Starbucks costs around €4. That’s a typical price for any coffee shop here. And that gets you your coffee in a disposable cup.

Compare that to Spain, where somehow you can walk into any bar or cafe, have a fresh ground cafe con leche, served in a proper ceramic cup that they’ll have to wash after, and that coffee costs around €1.30.

I’d love to know how Spain is able to sell coffee at less than half the price of North America, and presumably still make a profit.

Apples are not oranges.

Price of a coffee varies largely upon the ambience of the coffee shop.

Starbucks has a carefully-engineered ambience and customer experience. The customer - I beg your pardon, Discriminating Coffee Connoisseur (DCC) - gets to specify numerous characteristics of the beverage, then watch a cool-looking barista fastidiously craft the bespoke coffee, then sit in a sofa and soak in the decor. It is a theatrical experience. Designing and providing it costs money. The customer must pay for all of that.

Spanish bar-cafés obviously are very different.

There being no Spanish bar-cafés near where I live here in Canada, I frequently buy a large coffee at a McDonald's. The price is CAD$1.50; about €1.00. Its aroma, taste, and temperature are perfectly acceptable to me. The product quality is repeatable over time and between locations. It warms me up and gets me energized. The ordering of it does not take as much time as it would at a Starbucks. And it does not cost €4.00.

 

[JustOneGuy]

a little off-topic, but you reminded me of a famous cartoon by Bruno Bozzetto, a popular Italian cartoon writer, which makes fun of the differences between us Italians and the rest of Europe. There is also a part dedicated to coffee close to the end...

Of course, for many people it is difficult to understand what is specific to a single country, and what is found in other countries as well...for that you have to have lived in many different nations, but I found it so funny (and someway true about my country, Italy!).

Happy viewing (and buen camino)... but be careful if you plan to walk the Via Francigena

 

[Carl Remarx]

Hey everyone. Spanish coffee is cheap because Spanish coffee companies use the lower-quality, lower-price, more highly-caffeinated Robusta bean(vs the Arabica used by “specialty“ coffee companies). The cheap bean is then roasted using the “torrefaction” method, adding sugar to coat the outside of the bean with a little sweetness to balance the flavor. Pervasive Spanish use of UHP(shelf-stable) milk also keeps costs down.

 

[lt56ny]

A few years ago I stayed in a hostel (I think it was Toc) in Madrid. There is a standard Spanish Bar you see everywhere and a Starbucks next door. It was in a tourist area (plaza del Sol). I went to have my coffee and pan tostada in the bar. When I left I I went to the Starbucks to check out the prices. i do not remember what I paid or what the price for a coffee was at Starbucks. But my check at the bar was within a few cents of what one coffee at Starbucks would be.
I also noticed that the bar was busier than the Starbucks but it was early in the morning. I am sure when the tourists got going the Starbucks was making its money.

 

[Barbara]

Starbucks overcharge and some people don't care so they pay a stupid price. Small cafés charge something more reasonable, they are still making money. What is even better, the coffee is not as diluted, it actually tastes of coffee. Same amount of coffee, less water.

 

[KiwiCathy]

Lots of food and drink items are quite a bit cheaper in Spain than in North America. Also coffee is much more basic in Spain - I heard a quote today that the different permutations of flavors, sizes, and strengths of Starbucks beverages can run into the millions. Have you ever heard someone in Spain order a grande triple half caf latte over light ice with two pumps of mocha and one pump of pumpkin spice? Plus the overhead of Spanish bars and cafes is much lower.

I loved your answer

Hey everyone. Spanish coffee is cheap because Spanish coffee companies use the lower-quality, lower-price, more highly-caffeinated Robusta bean(vs the Arabica used by “specialty“ coffee companies). The cheap bean is then roasted using the “torrefaction” method, adding sugar to coat the outside of the bean with a little sweetness to balance the flavor. Pervasive Spanish use of UHP(shelf-stable) milk also keeps costs down.

I loved your answer. I personally like my coffee black with no sugar and or all that other artsy farty stuff

 

[lt56ny]

Hey everyone. Spanish coffee is cheap because Spanish coffee companies use the lower-quality, lower-price, more highly-caffeinated Robusta bean(vs the Arabica used by “specialty“ coffee companies). The cheap bean is then roasted using the “torrefaction” method, adding sugar to coat the outside of the bean with a little sweetness to balance the flavor. Pervasive Spanish use of UHP(shelf-stable) milk also keeps costs down.

I am not much of a coffee expert. I usually just buy coffee from Costco and my morning coffee is 2 cups with a little milk in each cup. I live in Mexico now and I use shelf bought milk. It took some getting used to but now I am fine with it. In Starbucks here in Mexico I would assume they use the same beans as all Starbucks but they use shelf milk. Depending on where you are, what colonia you are in you can pay as much as 4.00 US dollars for a latte (I guess that is the closest thing to a cafe con leche in Spain).
Anyway I digress, for me, I am perfectly happy with the coffee I get in Spain and Portugal and have those extra euros in my pocket.
P.S. I also lived in Ashland, Oregon for over 20 years and the Pacific Northwest is a haven for coffee to say the least. I definitely appreciate when I get a killer cup and I can tell you coffee and beans were a topic of conversation for people in Ashland as I am sure it is in Portland. We did have some great local coffee shops. Ashland being a tourist town had 3 Starbucks that all thrived especially because of the tourists. But the local shops did very well too. Some were as expensive and some cheaper. If you love coffee the Pacific Northwest is a great place to live.

 

[Molly Cassidy]

How about the cost of a glass of wine? Last night we had dinner at an average restaurant in Portland, Oregon and it was $8 for a half glass, and $14 for a full glass. And a full glass is about 6 ounces. We bought a bottle.

Wine is mostly about tax, though, I think. Some countries have very high taxes on alcohol.

 

[OLDBIKERIDER]

Stopped in at a Starbucks in Vancouver today. I don’t care for Starbucks but was with a friend who likes it. A latte or similar at Starbucks costs around €4. That’s a typical price for any coffee shop here. And that gets you your coffee in a disposable cup.

Compare that to Spain, where somehow you can walk into any bar or cafe, have a fresh ground cafe con leche, served in a proper ceramic cup that they’ll have to wash after, and that coffee costs around €1.30.

I’d love to know how Spain is able to sell coffee at less than half the price of North America, and presumably still make a profit.

And give you a tapa with it that is likely worth more than the coffee in N. A.

 

[trecile]

Pervasive Spanish use of UHP(shelf-stable) milk also keeps costs down.

I recently had some friends over from my local Camino group and wanted to buy some UHT milk to make café con leches with that authentic Spanish taste. It's not ubiquitous like it is in Spain. I could only find one brand which came in a six pack of small juice box sized cartons, and was very expensive! I ended up just buying regular refrigerated milk.

 

[Rex]

The fellow who took over SBUX in 1986 was named Howard Schultz and he had a vision for coffee shops as "third places" (not home, not office) where people could gather and have a cup of coffee like they do in Italy and Spain and other places in Europe. The irony is that the fellow who started the American coffee revolution was from the Netherlands. His name was Alfred Peet and in 1966, Alfred Peet opened a coffee shop/roaster close to the campus of University of California. About five years later he opened a second coffee shop/roaster in Menlo Park, CA (close to Stanford University and now the hub the Silicon Valley of California). Peet's Coffee is still a large presence on the W. Coast of the USA.
In 1971, three young fellows from Seattle opened a coffee shop in Seattle; it became known as Starbucks. Mr. Peet agreed to provide his carefully roasted coffees to SBUX, but by 1973, at Mr. Peet's suggestion and with his guidance, SBUX began to roast its own coffee. Around 1976, a fellow named Howard Schultz came to SBUX as a salesman and he had big dreams of what SBUX could be. The original founders were not very impressed with Schultz' idea and Schultz left the company, only to reappear on the scene a few years later when he bought a controlling interest in the company from the founders. The rest is history. It should be noted here that there are two primary types of coffee beans grown for commercial consumption (Arabica and Robusta). The darker roasts like French, Italian and Espresso primarily use Robusta beans which are cheaper, easier to grow and more disease resistant. The Robusta beans handle high heat better and produce a dark intense shot of coffee that is what we get on the various European hiking routes. (Note: the dark roasts are not, however, higher in caffeine content than the same amount of coffee from lighter roasts -- another urban myth that is not true).
Now to the question at hand, most of which has been answered above. Arabica beans are more expensive and that is primarily what Peets, SBUX and other specialty coffee purveyors use in their roasting. Of course one is paying for the ambiance and overhead of huge corporations ($29 Billion in revenues in 2023 for SBUX and almost $9 Billion in coffee revenues for another coffee giant (Nestle). Contrast this with the family shops that dot the landscape of Spain, Italy, France, etc... and the type of coffee that is consumed (mostly cheaper Robusta beans in espresso establishments) and the family is not paying an average of $18/hour plus benefits (the hourly wage for baristas in Seattle) for employees and you start to understand that the micro-economic inputs can lead to large discrepancies in how much we pay for our morning Cuppa'Joe in various countries. I have tried to convince barista/owners along the Camino and the VF that they should increase their prices for my morning double shot and they are pretty unanimous that I'm a crazy man and should just keep hiking and keep my opinions to myself. One fellow told me that I can pay more if I want, but his local clients would shun his establishment if he raised his prices. This is just another bug, or feature, of our vastly disparate economic realities in today's world.

Full disclosure -- In retirement I live six months in Kona and six months in Seattle, and for many years lived in a neighborhood with several Starbucks executives and managers. In Kona, one of our neighbors is a coffee grower and roaster with a small higher elevation coffee farm. She sells her roasted Kona branded coffee for $57/pound and makes no apologies for it. It is a tough business and the family works very long hours to cultivate, harvest and roast the highest quality coffee they can, year after year. When I visit the retail store downtown in Kona, I know why I'm paying $7/cup (and I don't do it often).
Sorry for the long treatise -- my favorite coffee quote comes from Alfred Peet, who immigrated to the USA in 1955... "I came to the richest country in the World, so why are they drinking the lousiest coffee?"
Thanks to Alfred Peet, that is no longer a problem.
Buen Camino

 

[Bradypus]

Wine is mostly about tax, though, I think. Some countries have very high taxes on alcohol.

Very true. A combination of taxes and minimum price laws mean that the lowest amount a shop in Scotland can charge for a bottle of whisky is about to rise to the equivalent of 21 euro. A similar bottle in a Spanish supermarket might be as low as 6 euro.

 

[JerryStroebele]

There being no Spanish bar-cafés near where I live here in Canada, I frequently buy a large coffee at a McDonald's. The price is CAD$1.50; about €1.00. Its aroma, taste, and temperature are perfectly acceptable to me. The product quality is repeatable over time and between locations. It warms me up and gets me energized. The ordering of it does not take as much time as it would at a Starbucks. And it does not cost €4.00.

Fresh McDonalds coffee is just fine. But being happily retired, I drive the Alcan through Canada most years, all months, and look forward to Tim Horton's coffee. But, wow, love the fresh squeezed zumo de naranja in a Spanish bar. Buen Camino

 

[JustOneGuy]

Hey everyone. Spanish coffee is cheap because Spanish coffee companies use the lower-quality, lower-price, more highly-caffeinated Robusta bean(vs the Arabica used by “specialty“ coffee companies). The cheap bean is then roasted using the “torrefaction” method, adding sugar to coat the outside of the bean with a little sweetness to balance the flavor. Pervasive Spanish use of UHP(shelf-stable) milk also keeps costs down.

This may be true in some places, but I can show you many coffee bars in Italy with prices around 1€, using, for example, Caffè Illy, made with high quality Arabica and fresh milk (not UHT).

 

[JustOneGuy]

... and by the way, for those who might be interested, a few weeks ago I tried to estimate the cost of a coffee made with different methods (based on local prices):

(EDITED)


... immediately after this I went to a local consumer electronic shop and bought a coffee machine for my home and one for my office .

I am still waiting to end the Nespresso-like capsules I have yet at home to archive that sad, ugly period of my life in which I used capsules

p.s. I added a column for "Starbucks":

 

[JerryStroebele]

My yearly costs for coffee in a bar in Spain is about 3 times your figure. Because I am able to fly to Spain from the US twice a year now. AND WELL WORTH IT! Buen Camino

 

[Anhalter]

Hey everyone. Spanish coffee is cheap because Spanish coffee companies use the lower-quality, lower-price, more highly-caffeinated Robusta bean(vs the Arabica used by “specialty“ coffee companies). The cheap bean is then roasted using the “torrefaction” method, adding sugar to coat the outside of the bean with a little sweetness to balance the flavor. Pervasive Spanish use of UHP(shelf-stable) milk also keeps costs down.

So assuming 10g of coffee for an espresso/cafe solo (i get conflicting numbers)... the difference between a "cheap" 10€/kg and an "expensive" 40€/kg coffee is exactly 30ct. To me that doesnt explain a price difference of 2-3€.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

my favorite coffee quote comes from Alfred Peet, who immigrated to the USA in 1955... "I came to the richest country in the World, so why are they drinking the lousiest coffee?"

"I came to the richest country in the World, so why are they drinking the lousiest coffee?"

The absolutely lousiest cup of coffee I've ever had was in Turkey; a "complimentary" small espresso cup size while being shown expensive rugs on a tour. It was literally thick as mud and looked like mud. The old joke "a spoon could stand up in it" was no joke....I wish I'd asked for the tea instead.

 

[peregrina2000]

Stopped in at a Starbucks in Vancouver today. I don’t care for Starbucks but was with a friend who likes it. A latte or similar at Starbucks costs around €4.

I don’t think you’re comparing apples to apples. Take a look at Starbuck’s prices in Madrid, they are very similar to what you pay in Vancouver! Latte prices start at €4.30.

 

[Simperegrina]

How about the cost of a glass of wine? Last night we had dinner at an average restaurant in Portland, Oregon and it was $8 for a half glass, and $14 for a full glass. And a full glass is about 6 ounces. We bought a bottle.

Don’t! I cry every time I return to London after a Camino

 

[Simperegrina]

This may be true in some places, but I can show you many coffee bars in Italy with prices around 1€, using, for example, Caffè Illy, made with high quality Arabica and fresh milk (not UHT).

The 1€ coffee at the bar has been an institution in Italy since for many years…

 

[trecile]

So assuming 10g of coffee for an espresso/cafe solo (i get conflicting numbers)... the difference between a "cheap" 10€/kg and an "expensive" 40€/kg coffee is exactly 30ct. To me that doesnt explain a price difference of 2-3€.

The difference is mostly the overhead of the different types of businesses.

 

[Pilgrim9]

So, might there be a market in North America for a chain (I guess) or even just one independent bar-café duplicating the ambience, decor, equipment-and-furnishings, and menu of Spanish bar-cafés of the type that are frequented by working- and middle-class Spaniards?

Non-negotiable: Must serve Tortilla Espanola con ceboya, tostadas con tomata, crusty bread, and freshly-squeezed orange juice in the mornings. And coffee of course.

Desirable: Vigorous discussions in the background about soccer.

 

[oursonpolaire]

Fresh McDonalds coffee is just fine. But being happily retired, I drive the Alcan through Canada most years, all months, and look forward to Tim Horton's coffee. But, wow, love the fresh squeezed zumo de naranja in a Spanish bar. Buen Camino

In those years when I had to do a lot of driving in Ontario and Québec, Tim's provided a decent standard (although not a high one!) for road coffee. Many mom&pop stops along the way featured the weak and bitter coffee which we ended up with during WWII, to which all became accustomed. If you were lucky enough to find one run by Arabs or Greeks, possible in the Maritimes, you could ask specifically for the sort of coffee they would give their exacting great-aunt--- it seems everyone had such an aunt, as this reaped me very good coffee and usually a piece of loukoum or baklava.

Friends tell me that McDonald's coffee is now palatable, but I still prefer what is offered at a café across from the village church or the ayuntamiento, taken slowly at a table on the plaza, while watching tired and exultant newbie pilgrims. There is nothing better.

 

[peregrina2000]

Desirable: Vigorous discussions in the background about soccer.

And let’s add - Tables of men playing dominos or cards, next to similar tables of women doing the same thing.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

Hey everyone. Spanish coffee is cheap because Spanish coffee companies use the lower-quality, lower-price, more highly-caffeinated Robusta bean(vs the Arabica used by “specialty“ coffee companies). The cheap bean is then roasted using the “torrefaction” method, adding sugar to coat the outside of the bean with a little sweetness to balance the flavor. Pervasive Spanish use of UHP(shelf-stable) milk also keeps costs down.

I have heard that about the robusta. But an Italian espresso or a cappuccino is not usually that different in price from a Spanish cafe or cafe con leche. Did they also use robusta in Italy?

EDIT: a little quick research on the Internet shows that it's quite common to use arabica/robusta blends in Italy.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

Friends tell me that McDonald's coffee is now palatable

There was a famous lawsuit a few years ago because a woman severely burned her self, because McDonald's used to make the coffee so hot.
"McDonalds stated that it used the higher temperatures to assure “the maximum extraction of flavor”. In other words, a higher temperature means fewer coffee beans are needed per pot resulting in higher profits for the company."

Since then, they've lowered the temperature and possibly used more beans or better beans. I've probably had McDonald's coffee but I can't remember.

Of course, an espresso machine operates at much higher temperatures than the more common North American drip coffee maker. Interesting.

The McDonald’s Hot Coffee Case

It was the 1994 jury verdict that was used as a justification for twenty years of “tort reform”. Special interest groups used the McDonald’s hot coffee jury verdict to justify changes in our legal system -- changes supposedly needed to stop “runaway juries”. But was the McDonald’s jury really a...

www.lagardelaw.com

 

[JustJack]

Hey everyone. Spanish coffee is cheap because Spanish coffee companies use the lower-quality, lower-price, more highly-caffeinated Robusta bean(vs the Arabica used by “specialty“ coffee companies). The cheap bean is then roasted using the “torrefaction” method, adding sugar to coat the outside of the bean with a little sweetness to balance the flavor. Pervasive Spanish use of UHP(shelf-stable) milk also keeps costs down.

Interesting

 

[JustJack]

How about the cost of a glass of wine? Last night we had dinner at an average restaurant in Portland, Oregon and it was $8 for a half glass, and $14 for a full glass. And a full glass is about 6 ounces. We bought a bottle.

I simply, and sadly, don't drink wine when I come home. I'd love to have a glass or two with dinner every night like I do in Spain but the price is just too prohibitive.

And don't get me started on the cost of olive oil here... We bought a very basic brand, it's a 1.5 litres or 2 litre bottle. $46! Next time I go to Spain I'm bringing back as many bottles as I'm able to carry. Unlike alcohol I don't think there's a restriction on how many bottles I can bring home. I can almost save enough to pay for the plane ticket

 

[Sirage]

My understanding, in brief, is:

- That in much of the developed world espresso coffee is just called "coffee". Perhaps just "Espresso".

- In the USA espresso coffee is (mostly ?) called "speciality coffee" and we all know that "speciality" can attract a price premium. eg Starbucks et al.

I would be interested on how residents of the USA see this.

 

[John Holland]

A little comment from a wanderer from the country down under which is acknowledged as being the best(?) judge of coffee in the world as proven by the attached photo taken outside a coffee shop in Jordan (even if their spelling is not perfect, after all English is not their first language). Incidentally, in Jordan you can get a a cup of excellent Turkish coffee - also known as Arabian, Middle-east or Greek style coffee - from a road-side stall for well under €1. Having drunk cups of coffee in well over 100 countries, including its home territories of Ethiopia/Eritrea (take your pick as to in which country coffee originated), my motto is: don't worry about the cost of the coffee. Just appreciate a good cup wherever you get it: Spain, France, Italy or Australia; although, having lived in both the USA and Canada, I have to say it is much more difficult finding a good coffee in either of those two countries. If you enjoy Starbucks, pay the money and enjoy. PS: If you are interested: I only drink black coffee with no additives such as sugar.

 

[Cicada]

Stopped in at a Starbucks in Vancouver today. I don’t care for Starbucks but was with a friend who likes it. A latte or similar at Starbucks costs around €4. That’s a typical price for any coffee shop here. And that gets you your coffee in a disposable cup.

Compare that to Spain, where somehow you can walk into any bar or cafe, have a fresh ground cafe con leche, served in a proper ceramic cup that they’ll have to wash after, and that coffee costs around €1.30.

I’d love to know how Spain is able to sell coffee at less than half the price of North America, and presumably still make a profit.

4 Euros now that's a bit exey I thought 3 euros in Sydney was expensive!

 

[oursonpolaire]

A little comment from a wanderer from the country down under which is acknowledged as being the best(?) judge of coffee in the world as proven by the attached photo taken outside a coffee shop in Jordan (even if their spelling is not perfect, after all English is not their first language). Incidentally, in Jordan you can get a a cup of excellent Turkish coffee - also known as Arabian, Middle-east or Greek style coffee - from a road-side stall for well under €1. Having drunk cups of coffee in well over 100 countries, including its home territories of Ethiopia/Eritrea (take your pick as to in which country coffee originated), my motto is: don't worry about the cost of the coffee. Just appreciate a good cup wherever you get it: Spain, France, Italy or Australia; although, having lived in both the USA and Canada, I have to say it is much more difficult finding a good coffee in either of those two countries. If you enjoy Starbucks, pay the money and enjoy. PS: If you are interested: I only drink black coffee with no additives such as sugar.

View attachment 177070

I was in Australia last year and can assure you that they don't know how to make a bad cup of coffee. They have espresso machines in gas stations.....

 

[Robo]

I was in Australia last year and can assure you that they don't know how to make a bad cup of coffee. They have espresso machines in gas stations.....

None of that stewed 'drip' coffee here mate!

 

[Kathor1]

I recently had some friends over from my local Camino group and wanted to buy some UHT milk to make café con leches with that authentic Spanish taste. It's not ubiquitous like it is in Spain. I could only find one brand which came in a six pack of small juice box sized cartons, and was very expensive!

That's really interesting, @trecile. I had no idea that UHT milk is hard to find in the USA. UHT milk is ubiquitous not only in Spain but where I live in Europe too and I avoid it where I can. I have only a half litre bottle in my fridge in case I run out of fresh milk. On its own, the taste makes it undrinkable for me.

Are we actually talking "coffee" or "coffee with milk"?

At home I drink only tea (with fresh milk) but I am used to the café house traditions of Germany / Switzerland / Austria. I think - I really have to look into this now - it is served with some kind of milk/coffee cream, and it is this kind of combination of coffee and this milky substance that I like best. I think that is is called Kaffeesahne but it is not whipped cream. But the Spanish cafe con leche is not bad either.

I recently had a coffee in a bistro in Paris while waiting for my next train and asked for a café au lait (coffee with milk) as I tend to say in French, and the waiter corrected me by saying "café crême" (cream coffee). It was € 4.50, btw.

Anyway, and that's my point, when we talk about latte or cafe con leche, it's not the coffee alone that makes the taste. Or the price for that matter. And I am not a coffee connoisseur, obviously.

 

[Kirkie]

A fair number of posts. I read the opening one and scanned a few.
One phrase jumped out: because people pay the price.
It amazes me - RIP John Denver - that people are walking around on the street with coffee cups, morning, noon and (well, I am not out at night so shh!) and I say: far from drinking coffee out on the street was I reared.

Countries have different economies. This sentence comes from the least logistical person I know - me. I live on an island off the mainland of Europe, with a bigger island between us that used to be the main transport option for exports and imports. That has always meant, and continues to mean, that costs are higher. I was in the USA for six months in 1978. I could not believe the cost of fuel. A very small example of how governments may well cushion costs to keep people on their side? I also remember the geography lecturer at my teacher training college, late 60s, describing the economy of Spain being one that was growing on the strength of tourism. She was correct. Enough.
A footnote: I actually regret that progress means we can find items out of place, either seasonal foodstuffs, or non perishable items. What does that leave us when we do manage to travel? No surprises.
I eschew (first time ever to use that word! ) certain companies, and one of them is the coffee shop that starts with S... .

 

[KevinWilcox]

It was literally thick as mud and looked like mud.

Haha - when I lived for a while in that region we did actually call it ‘mud’, but once you know how it’s made and therefore how to drink it, it’s wonderful. It’s ground to dust and made without any filtration or separation, so you need to let the grounds settle to the bottom of the cup, which they do after a few minutes, and you only drink the top part. I still occasionally buy a bag when I’m feeling nostalgic or fancy a change.

 

[KevinWilcox]

people are walking around on the street with coffee cups

Now don’t get me started. As a trainee cantankerous old man I can complain for hours about people walking along with a coffee in one hand and a phone in the other. And while we’re at it, people who hold lengthy, loud phone conversations when out walking in a group.

 

[KiwiCathy]

I am not much of a coffee expert. I usually just buy coffee from Costco and my morning coffee is 2 cups with a little milk in each cup. I live in Mexico now and I use shelf bought milk. It took some getting used to but now I am fine with it. In Starbucks here in Mexico I would assume they use the same beans as all Starbucks but they use shelf milk. Depending on where you are, what colonia you are in you can pay as much as 4.00 US dollars for a latte (I guess that is the closest thing to a cafe con leche in Spain).
Anyway I digress, for me, I am perfectly happy with the coffee I get in Spain and Portugal and have those extra euros in my pocket.
P.S. I also lived in Ashland, Oregon for over 20 years and the Pacific Northwest is a haven for coffee to say the least. I definitely appreciate when I get a killer cup and I can tell you coffee and beans were a topic of conversation for people in Ashland as I am sure it is in Portland. We did have some great local coffee shops. Ashland being a tourist town had 3 Starbucks that all thrived especially because of the tourists. But the local shops did very well too. Some were as expensive and some cheaper. If you love coffee the Pacific Northwest is a great place to live.

I went through Ashland in 2013. What a beautiful area. I love a good cup of coffee. I think Starbucks are dreadful though.

 

[Molly Cassidy]

Anyway, and that's my point, when we talk about latte or cafe con leche, it's not the coffee alone that makes the taste. Or the price for that matter. And I am not a coffee connoisseur, obviously.

Yes, milk is very expensive in some countries.

 

[JustOneGuy]

Just expanding the topic.

If I remember correctly (source: a book on the history of Italian food I read many years ago), the Florian Cafè in Piazza San Marco was the first Italian coffee house - opened in 1720 - but drinking coffee in Europe actually started in London and was imported to Veneto after the Austrian occupation of the northern regions.

There, a coffee cost 6.50 €, a cappuccino 10.50 €. But you are sitting in a monument:



I went there years ago (the company I was working for at the time paid the bill...). Not impressed by the quality of the coffee but an experience (Take that Starbucks' "Discriminating Coffee Connoisseurs"! ) Don't expect a good service either (or the best coffee of your life, that I got in Djibouti actually... sorry my countryfellows!)

For a similar experience, if you reach Rome via via Francigena, is the relatively more "recent" Caffè Greco (open since 1760). There you will seat at the very same tables where Liszt, Goethe, Schopenauer, Stendhal, Keats (living nearby), Lord Byron, Ibsen, Hans Christian Andersen Wagner, Mendelsson and many others seat in the past.

But for the best coffee experience ever in Rome, go to Caffè Sant'Eustachio, near the Pantheon. They are rude like hell but it is worth the cup...

And... best coffee in Italy? Naples, no discussion!

 

[Kirkie]

Just expanding the topic.

If I remember correctly (source: a book on the history of Italian food I read many years ago), the Florian Cafè in Piazza San Marco was the first Italian coffee house - opened in 1720 - but drinking coffee in Europe actually started in London and was imported to Veneto after the Austrian occupation of the northern regions.

There, a coffee cost 6.50 €, a cappuccino 10.50 €. But you are sitting in a monument:

View attachment 177077

I went there years ago (the company I was working for at the time paid the bill...). Not impressed by the quality of the coffee but an experience (Take that Starbucks' "Discriminating Coffee Connoisseurs"! ) Don't expect a good service either (or the best coffee of your life, that I got in Djibouti actually... sorry my countryfellows!)

For a similar experience, if you reach Rome via via Francigena, is the relatively more "recent" Caffè Greco (open since 1760). There you will seat at the very same tables where Liszt, Goethe, Schopenauer, Stendhal, Keats (living nearby), Lord Byron, Ibsen, Hans Christian Andersen Wagner, Mendelsson and many others seat in the past.

But for the best coffee experience ever in Rome, go to Caffè Sant'Eustachio, near the Pantheon. They are rude like hell but it is worth the cup...

And... best coffee in Italy? Naples, no discussion!

Oh, my goodness! you have taken me back to the quarter ounce tins of powdered coffee - Nescafe? my mother produced, made with milk, in my childhood! The smell is still stored in my little brain!

 

[Pelegrin]

I walk a lot on Madrid streets. If I need to go to toilet I order a " cortado" 1, 3/ 1,5. No need to sit down. That's great.

 

[Robo]

I went through Ashland in 2013. What a beautiful area. I love a good cup of coffee. I think Starbucks are dreadful though.

Yes, we are coffee snobs in Australia too

Why Starbucks FAILED in Australia: The $105 Million Loss Bet

Australians are spoiled for choice when it comes to coffee. After World War 2, Italian and Greek immigrants brought Coffee Culture to Australia

www.justologist.com

 

[JustOneGuy]

Oh, my goodness! you have taken me back to the quarter ounce tins of powdered coffee - Nescafe? my mother produced, made with milk, in my childhood! The smell is still stored in my little brain!

I am an astronomer, and there is an old saying that "an astronomer is a machine that converts caffeine into published papers". That's why I'm fixated on coffee.

So, years ago, I was hired to contribute to the construction of an observatory in Chile (ALMA). I got there and the first night I discovered, to my great regret, that the only coffee available in the wonderful cafeteria overseeing the Atacama desert was... Nescafe!!! The problem was that Chile - sorry my dear chilean friends... - was used to Nescafe and at that time (2010) they were still developing the taste for a good cup of coffee.

I immediately complained to my line manager, because I considered it an insult to work night after night while being fed on soluble Nescafe.

The manager immediately responded by assigning me a "ticket" to find a better solution. So I studied the market, made a business plan and after about a month I bought several high quality automatic coffee machines and found an importer of good quality arabica coffee.

The machines are still there.

And I still think this is my most relevant contribution to the field of astronomy...

 

[lt56ny]

I went through Ashland in 2013. What a beautiful area. I love a good cup of coffee. I think Starbucks are dreadful though.

Ashland is a beautiful place and there are some really good places for a really good coffee that does not have the word Starbucks in its name!

 

[Stephan the Painter]

I had no idea that UHT milk is hard to find in the USA.

It's never done well in the US because people here don't trust milk that's not refrigerated. I have seen UHT milk containers in refrigerators in grocery stores here. People just aren't that familiar with it.

 

[John Holland]

The absolutely lousiest cup of coffee I've ever had was in Turkey; a "complimentary" small espresso cup size while being shown expensive rugs on a tour. It was literally thick as mud and looked like mud. The old joke "a spoon could stand up in it" was no joke....I wish I'd asked for the tea instead.

Ahh Chrissy, if brewed correctly (in a cezve/ibrik 3 times over a flame, each time until it is just on boiling) and then drunk after you allow the grounds to settle, and you only drink the top bit (not the "mud" at the bottom) you will not get any mud and will have the most delicious cup of real coffee.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Ahh Chrissy, if brewed correctly (in a cezve/ibrik 3 times over a flame, each time until it is just on boiling) and then drunk after you allow the grounds to settle, and you only drink the top bit (not the "mud" at the bottom) you will not get any mud and will have the most delicious cup of real coffee.

Can it be served with true cream or "half and half" cream as an option? Unfortunately I have an aversion to black coffee, with or without the mud, but wish it weren't so. Thanks for the special details though.

 

[oursonpolaire]

It's never done well in the US because people here don't trust milk that's not refrigerated. I have seen UHT milk containers in refrigerators in grocery stores here. People just aren't that familiar with it.

A friend of mine who joneses after it tells me that it is easily found at Costco.

 

[trecile]

A friend of mine who joneses after it tells me that it is easily found at Costco.

I have never looked for it at Costco, but checking their app I see that it available, but only in the small juice box size cartons at a fairly high price.

Total of 144 ounces/4.26 liters for $15.99



This is what I found at Target
total 48 ounces/1.42 liters for $7.99



BTW, after my get-together I did find a liter carton of UHT milk at another store for about $3.


I regularly buy a gallon/3.785 liters of refrigerated milk for $3.50, or less when it's on sale.

 

[John Holland]

Can it be served with true cream or "half and half" cream as an option? Unfortunately I have an aversion to black coffee, with or without the mud, but wish it weren't so. Thanks for the special details though.

Sorry Chrissy, it is a bit like Henry Ford's dictum: you can have any colour you like as long as it is black.

 

[haikutaxi]

I recently had some friends over from my local Camino group and wanted to buy some UHT milk to make café con leches with that authentic Spanish taste. It's not ubiquitous like it is in Spain. I could only find one brand which came in a six pack of small juice box sized cartons, and was very expensive! I ended up just buying regular refrigerated milk.

Parmalat comes in 32 oz cartons and I think most supermarkets carry it (usually in the baking aisle near evaporated and condensed milks).

 

[trecile]

Parmalat comes in 32 oz cartons and I think most supermarkets carry it (usually in the baking aisle near evaporated and condensed milks).

Thanks. I do see that it's available in grocery stores near me. I didn't think of looking in the baking aisle. The brand that I bought was Lala.

 

[WGroleau]

The product quality is repeatable over time and between locations.

Isn't Charbucks repeatable? I think so, but my sample size is small. (Meaning it tastes so bad I don't go there often.)

I live on an island off the mainland of Europe, with a bigger island between us that used to be the main transport option for exports and imports.

Me: "I'd like a large flat white"
She: "There's no such thing. Flat white is always medium."

 

[TravellingMan22]

How about the cost of a glass of wine? Last night we had dinner at an average restaurant in Portland, Oregon and it was $8 for a half glass, and $14 for a full glass. And a full glass is about 6 ounces. We bought a bottle.

Indeed the cost of alcohol in USA is quite eye watering! Spent a couple of months in USA this year..,east coast, west coast, mid west, and (outside happy hours), $12 seems to be the ‘lead in’ price,, and that’s before you add the taxes and gratuity, so bottom line $15. That compare to €2 in Spain, of course!

But back to coffee. Comparisons I guess are harder given that Spanish coffees bars are very different to USA environments. But yes €1.50 and upwards is pretty much the norm in Spain. In terms of ‘like for like’ comparisons, well on recent trips to USA, the coffee bar I used most was at LA Union Station as I was catching quite a few buses and trains. It was Starbucks. I think a Venti black Americano rolled in between $5-6 plus tax plus gratuity. I walked past Starbucks the other day in Coruna and it was €4.80.

 

[Pelegrin]

But back to coffee. Comparisons I guess are harder given that Spanish coffees bars are very different to USA environments.

Yes but unfortunately those "Spanish bars" are disappearing in cities like Madrid and are replaced by fast food, Starbucks, etc. They are very convenient if you need to go to toilet. You have a "cortado en la barra" pay 1,5 with no tip required and continue walking.

 

[TravellingMan22]

Yes but unfortunately those "Spanish bars" are disappearing in cities like Madrid and are replaced by fast food, Starbucks, etc. They are very convenient if you need to go to toilet. You have a "cortado en la barra" pay 1,5 with no tip required and continue walking.

Yea agreed. Real shame. Real attraction for me (maybe the biggest for me re Spain) is the small bars that sell coffee/vino/tapas etc. Currently in Coruna for 3 weeks and not sure what we would do without them.

 

[bullingtonce]

Stopped in at a Starbucks in Vancouver today. I don’t care for Starbucks but was with a friend who likes it. A latte or similar at Starbucks costs around €4. That’s a typical price for any coffee shop here. And that gets you your coffee in a disposable cup.

Compare that to Spain, where somehow you can walk into any bar or cafe, have a fresh ground cafe con leche, served in a proper ceramic cup that they’ll have to wash after, and that coffee costs around €1.30.

I’d love to know how Spain is able to sell coffee at less than half the price of North America, and presumably still make a profit.

Be a little wary of comparison; the economics of Spain are significantly different than that of the U.S. In addition, the cost of running a business in Spain is much lower than that of the U.S., especially when it comes to 1) medical care costs 2) workman's compensation fraud 3) litigation over trivial matters. Businesses have to survive so they price accordingly, depending on which area/country/city they are in. One can talk about Starbucks all one wants, but they have aficionados galore. And by the way, Vancouver is an extremely expensive city, nothing like Spain. Having said all this, I find it interesting and even pleasurable to experiences all the differences that exist between counties and cultures, even if, as in the case of New York, prices for everything are out of sight. Chuck

 

[MarkEveleigh]

Many cafes make very little profit on their coffee. With very good café con leche sometimes still available for a euro that's not surprising. I'm a HUGE fan of fresh orange juice and try to have a glass each morning to fuel my hikes. Relatively speaking though it is certainly NOT cheap (even in places like Valencia where oranges grow across vast hillsides). Cafe owners are happy to make very little on a 'necessity' like coffee but maximise profit on 'luxuries' like orange juice and croissants. It's a system that I appreciate. Apparently it was Che Guevara who said that “Si no hay café para todos, no habrá café para nadie.”

 

[Former member 118323]

Bean2Cup at home (relatives bring their own nescafé if that’s their thing), coffee short/long €1,30/€1,60 at the local Cafes here in SW France. We have an Italian Coffee percolator for the Camping Car hob … 2 years in Naples, Italy really spoilt me to half decent black coffee; we change Café (we have a choice of 4 within a stones throw of the town square) if they change the bean or supplier.

 

[hecate105]

I think you can get good coffee or bad coffee anywhere, but I would always take my chances with a local cafe/bar - whether its Spain, France or UK..... It is knowing that the money actually goes to keep a family or small business going - instead of just pouring my money down some corporations gaping maw - and knowing they will probably pay less tax than the family bar!!
Where we spend every penny does actually count.....

 

[Mycroft]

I'm glad I don't drink coffee!

 

[trecile]

I'm glad I don't drink coffee!

It does make life, and mornings easier!

I drink coffee occasionally, and more often on the Camino, but I don't need it.

 

[Former member 118323]

I'm glad I don't drink coffee!

I’m a month away from 65 with a BP of 110/60 and RHR of 43 … I need something to kickstart me. Often my wife gives me a nudge to see if I’m still ticking … she doesn’t do well on the lottery either.

 

[Laura Blue]

Stopped in at a Starbucks in Vancouver today. I don’t care for Starbucks but was with a friend who likes it. A latte or similar at Starbucks costs around €4. That’s a typical price for any coffee shop here. And that gets you your coffee in a disposable cup.

Compare that to Spain, where somehow you can walk into any bar or cafe, have a fresh ground cafe con leche, served in a proper ceramic cup that they’ll have to wash after, and that coffee costs around €1.30.

I’d love to know how Spain is able to sell coffee at less than half the price of North America, and presumably still make a profit.

Lower wages, smaller cups, local businesses not corporate, I guess. If you go to a Starbucks etc in a big city it's not going to be €1.30 or there abouts

 

[Stivandrer]

The absolutely lousiest cup of coffee I've ever had was in Turkey; a "complimentary" small espresso cup size while being shown expensive rugs on a tour. It was literally thick as mud and looked like mud. The old joke "a spoon could stand up in it" was no joke....I wish I'd asked for the tea instead.

The "gun shot" coffees of Turkey are legendary, plz do not inlude in comparison w other coffees..!

 

[Anna Cameron]

Yes, we are coffee snobs in Australia too

Why Starbucks FAILED in Australia: The $105 Million Loss Bet

Australians are spoiled for choice when it comes to coffee. After World War 2, Italian and Greek immigrants brought Coffee Culture to Australia

www.justologist.com

That is an interesting read, Robo, and I can attest to the truth of its message, from experience here in Adelaide (since 1981) and from my infrequent visits back to the States, where everything is so different from the childhood I lived there in the early years of my life. Dallas is a great place to be "from" (= "away from"), I always say, and Oz generally, Adelaide specifically, is where I am*, for the duration. *(excepting pilgrimages in Europe whenever and as long as I can afford it, of course!)

 

[Robo]

That is an interesting read, Robo, and I can attest to the truth of its message, from experience here in Adelaide (since 1981) and from my infrequent visits back to the States, where everything is so different from the childhood I lived there in the early years of my life. Dallas is a great place to be "from," I always say, and Oz generally, Adelaide specifically, is where I am*, for the duration. *(excepting pilgrimages in Europe whenever and as long as I can afford it, of course!)

Bottom line is.........they just make really bad coffee unfortunately.
At least for those used to the more traditional European style coffees.