A call for regulation or permit on the Francés

[Bradypus]

I've just read this article from La Voz de Galicia. A Camino guide and frequent pilgrim with over 30 years of Camino experience calling for some greater regulation of numbers - at least on the final stages. Prompted by the sight of pilgrims coming to blows near Portomarin.

Un guía lanza la voz de alarma: «Asistí a una pelea entre peregrinos y hasta ahora me parecía imposible mezclar puñetazos y Camino»

El madrileño Raúl Vincenzo Giglio, tras recorrer la ruta a Santiago 44 veces y guiar a infinitos grupos, comparte su lamento: «Estamos en un momento crítico en el que o cambiamos algo todos nosotros nuestra forma de peregrinar y se regula el último tramo, o el Camino puede morir de éxito»

www.lavozdegalicia.es

 

[Kirkie]

I've just read this article from La Voz de Galicia. A Camino guide and frequent pilgrim with over 30 years of Camino experience calling for some greater regulation of numbers - at least on the final stages. Prompted by the sight of pilgrims coming to blows near Portomarin.

Un guía lanza la voz de alarma: «Asistí a una pelea entre peregrinos y hasta ahora me parecía imposible mezclar puñetazos y Camino»

El madrileño Raúl Vincenzo Giglio, tras recorrer la ruta a Santiago 44 veces y guiar a infinitos grupos, comparte su lamento: «Estamos en un momento crítico en el que o cambiamos algo todos nosotros nuestra forma de peregrinar y se regula el último tramo, o el Camino puede morir de éxito»

www.lavozdegalicia.es

I have only read the headline section. I have just read @Anniesantiago saying she is saturated. I had prepared a reply to Annie, but deleted it. Your post, @Bradypus, has moved me to say that yes, I think the Camino event is a victim of its own success. Not the Pilgrimage. That will outlive the popularity.

 

[Anhalter]

here was at times some widespread panic on the Primitivo over the last couple of weeks that no beds are available. And indeed many of the private albergues / hostels (both in the main stage points and the inbetween places) were full, yet the municipals always had beds. In fact, the only municipal that filled up was the one in Berducedo (at 7pm). All others always had empty bunks.

Every bed in Grado was booked on May 9th, people took taxies. Salas the day after was pretty full, but no idea about the absolute situation since we walked to Fontenonaya. Campiello we got the last 2 beds, there might have been free ones in the following villages. Berducedo we got the last 3 beds in town, people taxied to La Mesa. Castro was again full with the 2 guys that arrived after us, but no idea about Grandas that night... by that point we started booking ahead.
So yea, we did not encounter major problems, but it sure was pretty busy on the primitivo and people arriving late ran into problems.

edit: but still nothing compared to the Disneyland that Santiago ist more and more becoming.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

Thanks for the article @Bradypus . Interesting timing considering that we only just talked about this elsewhere on the forum in the last few of weeks.
(Perhaps not surprising because forum members are simply reporting on the same phenomenon.)

The guide is quoted as saying that he thinks people should be encouraged to walk the last hundred k's on other routes. Whilst that is certainly one idea (which we have also discussed) he actually mentions the Primitivo - which of course joins with the Frances - so hardly a solution.
The Inglès is already saturated at certain points at certain times of the year - Pontedeume, Bruma being the classic examples. (But increase in accommodation availability would fix the majority of those issues, because with the exception of the first hour or two of the day, the trail itself is not horrendously busy.) That said a permit system would then spread the pilgrims more evenly, which is actually better for the infrastructure - I'm sure the hospitality providers would not complain. (Better than turning people away one week, and half empty the next).

Accommodation on the Portuguese is also stretched at certain times of the year. Again, some kind of permit system would greatly assist in alleviating that.

As luck would have it the last one hundred kilometers is all within Galacia on all routes, is it not? So potentially only one authority involved.

Anyone walking from further afield (you could even have specific start points) would be automatically entitled to a permit. The data from Pilgrim House could be used to extrapolate approximately how many pilgrims are actually on any route on a month by month basis. (Last year they estimated that approximately 600,000 people walked a camino, with 450,000 people registered, meaning 75% of the pilgrims applied for a Compostela).

Exactly how you would enforce it I do not know, but I'm sure it could be done.
Even at the risk of annoying some of the locals in their daily walks. Mind you let's face it not many of them wear day packs, let alone rucksacks!

Do I want to see this happen? Heck no!
Might it become necessary? Sadly, yes.

 

[trecile]

The only way that I can see a permit system working (which I'm not in favor of) is to access accommodations. And even that is probably not workable.

 

[Bradypus]

The only way that I can see a permit system working (which I'm not in favor of) is to access accommodations. And even that is probably not workable.

I'm not a fan of the idea either. But I can imagine some system where the issue of credencials is far more tightly controlled and limited in numbers. Which could in turn restrict numbers using traditional albergues or claiming a Compostela at the end of their journey. But who would decide the allocation of credencials? Quotas by nationality? One central issuing organisation? A lottery for places? It would be a very different experience from the Caminos as we have known them for decades.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

The PCT in America utilizes a lottery system. Factors like nationality etc are completely disregarded.

The only way that I can see a permit system working (which I'm not in favor of) is to access accommodations. And even that is probably not workable.

It would be relatively easy to transport a few Guardia Civil members, or even dedicated 'Camino wardens' to a slightly more isolated place to check the permits, with offenders being promptly removed from the trail to the nearest town and issued spot fines (€150 first offence, €500 second offence etc) for non-compliance. I'm sure those of you who have walked the Frances more than once could think of multiple places where this could be achieved relatively easily. (I can think of several places on both the Primitivo and the Inglès where it could be done, and I've only walked them once).
Roving patrols of course.

The wardens could double as first aid officers for law abiding pilgrims, transport in a water refill station etc.

You might get away with walking for several days without seeing one, but sooner or later they'd catch up with you. Simply knowing they're there would discourage many cheats.

I did say I would prefer not to see the system implemented however logistics aren't that hard to manage if you put your mind to it.

And I would rather see a permit system than the Camino destroyed by its own popularity.

 

[C clearly]

with offenders being promptly removed from the trail to the nearest town and issued spot fines

The offense being what? Walking in Spain without a permit? Non-resident-of-local-area walking in Spain without a permit?

That would be a very serious infringement on the whole idea of freedom of movement.

 

[KariannNor]

Theoretically, the pilgrims' office could not allow stamps from commercial places, only religious institutions and the traditional albergues. As it is, I or anyone can design my own stamp and set up a hotel or a caravan and sell soft drinks. A utopia of course, but at some point something must have gone wrong. When you can show all possible reasons to get that Compostela and get there in almost every possible way, then it is clear all kinds of tourists will do it.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

The offense being what? Walking in Spain without a permit? Non-resident-of-local-area walking in Spain without a permit?

Clearly if we are talking about a permit system to walk the camino then the infringement would be 'Walking the Camino without a permit' or similar.

That would be a very serious infringement on the whole idea of freedom of movement

Agreed. However the whole concept of 'freedom of movement' is flawed anyway. There are many places that we cannot freely go, that we may think that we have a 'right' to.

You can't just drive a car on the road without a license. The car needs to be permitted. You need to pay road tax. In some countries, the vehicle needs to be insured.

Aah, you say - but I can walk on the side of the road, or I can ride a bike. But that too is restricted. You can't ride a bike on a motorway for example, let alone walk.

The list goes on.

 

[trecile]

Clearly if we are talking about a permit system to walk the camino then the infringement would be 'Walking the Camino without a permit' or similar.

But "the Camino" is made up of all kinds of paths and roads that local people use. I can imagine the reaction that Spaniards would have if they were required to have a permit to walk or cycle on their local roads and paths!
It ain't ever going to happen.

 

[C clearly]

the infringement would be 'Walking the Camino without a permit' or similar.

That would require demarcation of the Camino, basically fencing it off from public areas. They would be better off to install a moving sidewalk from SJPP to Santiago and charge admission to use it.

the whole concept of 'freedom of movement' is flawed anyway. There are many places that we cannot freely go

The concept is certainly limited, as all our freedoms are. This seems like it would have huge and widespread implications that would be massive overkill for a problem of pilgrim bottlenecks for a few weeks each year.

P.S. I hope you don't mind a bit of energetic debate on this topic!

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

That would require demarcation of the Camino, basically fencing it off from public areas. They would be better off to install a moving sidewalk from SJPP to Santiago and charge admission to use it.

It already is basically fenced off in some areas. That was my point earlier, that those of you have walked it more than once can surely think of a few places where such controls could be instituted.

And whilst we talk about the issues this would create for locals frankly I don't recall seeing too many locals using large stretches of the Camino paths. (They've already been effectively forced off them by the hordes of pilgrims). As it would benefit them by reducing the numbers (thus making it easier for them to utilise their own walkways) I think most would probably be in favor. Plus which anyone controlling these areas would very quickly get to know any regulars, minimising any issues.

The 'moving sidewalk' - pictures of the current situation remind me of busy days in the worst airports I've ever been in!

This seems like it would have huge and widespread implications that would be massive overkill for a problem of pilgrim bottlenecks for a few weeks each year

Potentially, yes. I would rather an alternative solution was found. But the problem is growing. Numbers are increasing, pilgrim bottle necks are growing, as is the timeframe concerned.

Remember this just used to affect the Frances. Many here on the forum suggested walking alternative trails. Well, that is already happening and the negative effects are now showing on those camino's too. Over the last few years the number of pilgrims on the Portuguese has skyrocketed, necessating booking ahead for many. Ditto on the Inglés. Places on the Norte have always experienced seasonal difficulties because of popularity as a holiday destination, increasing numbers on the camino simply makes it worse. The Primitivo is now starting to suffer.

P.S. I hope you don't mind a bit of energetic debate on this topic!

Not at all - it's healthy and hopefully may prompt others to enter into it with constructive suggestions. It's very easy for us to say why we think something won't work, it's actually very hard to think of potential solutions that could. If we on the forum can come up with such ideas it could be helpful to the greater camino community as a whole.

This forum has many of you who have walked multiple caminos over many years, who comment frequently on how things have changed, and who often lament those changes. Most of us have reaped the benefits and the joys of the Camino, all I'm suggesting is that we give some thought as to how others might do so in the future.

Time for some positive thinking folks!

 

[Kathor1]

But the problem is growing

What is the problem actually? That two pilgrims fight with each other in the streets of Portomarin? That some Camino pilgrims can not live out their dream of freedom in the form of never having to book their accommodation? That the Camino is no longer what it was when one walked it for the first time? The pollution that some Camino pilgrims create along the trail? I had a quick look at the PCT website and their Strategy of Visitor Management. They have a "multi-pronged approach":

1. Focus on influencing trail user behavior by encouraging Leave No Trace (LNT) practices.
2. Focus on making the trail more resilient.
3. Sometimes necessary in popular areas (though as a last resort): limit the total number of users through permit systems.

On the first point, they write that many PCT users, whether out for a day or attempting a longer trip, are relatively inexperienced and unfamiliar with Leave No Trace (LNT) principles that reduce their impact on the land. In recent years, PCTA staff and volunteers dramatically increased the quantity and quality of LNT-related articles in print, on our website, and social media to encourage users to protect the trail for others to enjoy.

How much is being done in this respect for Camino pilgrims? Not a lot I think. Indignant comments about toilet paper and human waste are posted on social media platforms such as this forum that are presumably mainly read by those who already practice LNT principles, a poster about 'best practices' to reduce the noise caused by groups who are singing (religious?) songs accompanied by timpani and trumpets while marching through the (is it San Pedro?) neighbourhood, a decree by the Santiago administration about a prohibition of picnics on the Obradorio square that may or may not be posted in some corner of the square ...

Most locals would be in favour of turning stretches of public roads and paths into a space 'for pilgrims only'? Why would they? My uninformed guess is that most locals don't lie awake at night at the thought that the Camino is no longer what it was. And if some pilgrims don't come any more or ever again, plenty will still come.

There are too many visitors / tourists / walkers in so many places. A sign of the increasing popularity of doing something for one's physical and mental well-being by being out in the open air, changing the daily scenery, being physically active at a slow pace.

I sympathize with the concerns about Camino crowds. But permits in a large area that it is primarily not a nature park but a cultivated/cultural landscape and townscape? I don't see it coming.

At one end of the Camino Francés where the bottleneck Roncesvalles is, there is a building that could be renovated to house pilgrims - then high demand for beds during a few weeks of the year could be met. It is not publicly known whether there is no interest to invest or a lack of funds or other issues that prevent this project. At the other end, the regional administration of Galicia keeps on creating their cheap public albergues (cheap for the user and sometimes with flabbergastingly high costs for the renovation work) and say that pilgrims should come at other times than during peak season and walk the less frequented last 100 km than those from Saria.

 

[David Tallan]

Clearly if we are talking about a permit system to walk the camino then the infringement would be 'Walking the Camino without a permit' or similar.

Agreed. However the whole concept of 'freedom of movement' is flawed anyway. There are many places that we cannot freely go, that we may think that we have a 'right' to.

You can't just drive a car on the road without a license. The car needs to be permitted. You need to pay road tax. In some countries, the vehicle needs to be insured.

Aah, you say - but I can walk on the side of the road, or I can ride a bike. But that too is restricted. You can't ride a bike on a motorway for example, let alone walk.

The list goes on.

The challenge being that most of the Camino is on roads or paths that are multipurpose unlike, I expect, the PCT. Where there are bits between villages that are not multipurpose, setting up checkpoints would just incentivize pilgrims without permits to find a different way between village A and Village B, for example on the side of a road.

Personally, I am not in favour of any permit system. It is a self-regulating system. If there aren't enough beds that creates incentives to open more albergues. When I did my first Camino in 1989 people would have said that the Camino was completely incapable of supporting 10,000 or 20,000 pilgrims. The 5,000 that year had enough trouble finding beds. When I walked in 2016, with many, many times the number of pilgrims, it was actually easier to find a bed. Somehow, no permit system had been necessary despite the huge growth.

If the market doesn't step up and provide the beds, then eventually the stories of lack of beds will cause future pilgrims to rethink walking (especially in high season) until a balance is reached. Until that happens, some pilgrims may be disappointed. But the downside of disappointed pilgrims pales in comparison with the downsides of trying to implement a permit system.

(All of this leaving aside the issue of "who has the authority to issue or deny permits. There already way too many threads on this Forum about "there is no Camino authority". Maybe we need to ensure that no one re-opens that discussion without a permit.)

My opinion, YMMV.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

What is the problem actually? That two pilgrims fight with each other in the streets of Portomarin? That some Camino pilgrims can not live out their dream of freedom in the form of never having to book their accommodation? That the Camino is no longer what it was when one walked it for the first time? The pollution that some Camino pilgrims create along the trail? I had a quick look at the PCT website and their Strategy of Visitor Management. They have a "multi-pronged approach":

1. Focus on influencing trail user behavior by encouraging Leave No Trace (LNT) practices.
2. Focus on making the trail more resilient.
3. Sometimes necessary in popular areas (though as a last resort): limit the total number of users through permit systems.

On the first point, they write that many PCT users, whether out for a day or attempting a longer trip, are relatively inexperienced and unfamiliar with Leave No Trace (LNT) principles that reduce their impact on the land. In recent years, PCTA staff and volunteers dramatically increased the quantity and quality of LNT-related articles in print, on our website, and social media to encourage users to protect the trail for others to enjoy.

How much is being done in this respect for Camino pilgrims? Not a lot I think. Indignant comments about toilet paper and human waste are posted on social media platforms such as this forum that are presumably mainly read by those who already practice LNT principles, a poster about 'best practices' to reduce the noise caused by groups who are singing (religious?) songs accompanied by timpani and trumpets while marching through the (is it San Pedro?) neighbourhood, a decree by the Santiago administration about a prohibition of picnics on the Obradorio square that may or may not be posted in some corner of the square ...

Most locals would be in favour of turning stretches of public roads and paths into a space 'for pilgrims only'? Why would they? My uninformed guess is that most locals don't lie awake at night at the thought that the Camino is no longer what it was. And if some pilgrims don't come any more or ever again, plenty will still come.

There are too many visitors / tourists / walkers in so many places. A sign of the increasing popularity of doing something for one's physical and mental well-being by being out in the open air, changing the daily scenery, being physically active at a slow pace.

I sympathize with the concerns about Camino crowds. But permits in a large area that it is primarily not a nature park but a cultivated/cultural landscape and townscape? I don't see it coming.

At one end of the Camino Francés where the bottleneck Roncesvalles is, there is a building that could be renovated to house pilgrims - then high demand for beds during a few weeks of the year could be met. It is not publicly known whether there is no interest to invest or a lack of funds or other issues that prevent this project. At the other end, the regional administration of Galicia keeps on creating their cheap public albergues (cheap for the user and sometimes with flabbergastingly high costs for the renovation work) and say that pilgrims should come at other times than during peak season and walk the less frequented last 100 km than those from Saria.

What is the problem exactly?
It's multifaceted. According to the forum, it's too many people trying to use limited facilities. Bikes/ e-bikes on Camino. Over privileged attitudes. High expectations. No planning, or over planning. The list goes on.
But I thought that the theme of this thread was quite simple: Overcrowding.

I used the PCT as an example because it's one of the many walks in the world that uses a permit system. It was introduced because of overcrowding. Which it is now predominantly eliminated. @Kathar1na , you are of course correct in that they are a wilderness rather than Urban trail. And it's good that you pointed out that they are being proactive. Why?

It is one of the areas that Spain is falling down on. They are actively promoting the Camino to an overseas audience ( eg. the recent promotional visit to Canada last winter for the Camino Inglès). However I have seen very little being done with some of the other issues that you have raised : litter and toilet issues being important examples.
These are things that I personally feel should be responded to on a regional basis as required, but that would take a proactive response from the leadership of those communities.

Incidentally, neither I or anyone else above suggests turning stretches of public roads and paths into a space 'for pilgrims only'. I think that what is being suggested is that pilgrims would require a permit to use those spaces. Which would benefit the local populace by reducing the overcrowding.

More Albergues, such as the transformation of the building near Roncesvalles: Whilst that would help alleviate the local accommodation issues it doesn't actually alleviate the pressures on the trail itself. What is next: further widening of the trails? Parts of it are already a super Highway. That's like building more and more motorways to cope with the number of vehicles on the road, a very flawed approach. Galacia has a habit of 'improving' the paths by clearing & widening them, and then laying limestone on them. Horrific.

So nobody thinks a permit system would work? That's fine.

What I was hoping to see from long-term forum members is more positive suggestions to help alleviate the pressures that the camino is facing. I repeat:
"It's very easy for us to say why we think something won't work, it's actually very hard to think of potential solutions that could."

So let's have some more positive suggestions folks!

 

[markie6]

Infrastructure, rather than bureaucracy is IMHO what is needed

The roads to Santiago have become incredibly easy to do. More information about them due to the growth of the internet, social media and the like. Package tours , bag carrying companies ...

If there wasn't a shortage of beds at ( very few ) choke points , I think we would see less rants here

What I think we don't need is for every town to have a checkpoint or people making sure we are designated pilgrims and that our papers are in order.

Restricting tourists may happen in certain places and countries but I think the authorities would be better off charging pilgrims, walkers , tourists etc and using the funds for the infrastructure where it is needed most

 

[M2ME]

Un guía lanza la voz de alarma: «Asistí a una pelea entre peregrinos y hasta ahora me parecía imposible mezclar puñetazos y Camino»

El madrileño Raúl Vincenzo Giglio, tras recorrer la ruta a Santiago 44 veces y guiar a infinitos grupos, comparte su lamento: «Estamos en un momento crítico en el que o cambiamos algo todos nosotros nuestra forma de peregrinar y se regula el último tramo, o el Camino puede morir de éxito»

www.lavozdegalicia.es

A call for change on Camino Frances. An interesting if not entirely uplifting read.

 

[J Willhaus]

I read it this morning. Note he contributes to the crowding by bringing groups to this part of the Camino. He didn't say he'd be making a change himself only that others should...

 

[K_Lynn]

Well that was not the Spirit of Camino I expected to wake up to today. I can't imagine witnessing a brawl on the trail.

I don't know how it would be possible to coordinate permits for the last 100km, or any of it. It would be nice though if people did not leave garbage wherever they liked, a thing I would normally assume to be common sense or courtesy.

 

[M2ME]

I read it this morning. Not he contributes to the crowding by bringing groups to this part of the Camino. He didn't say he'd be making a change himself only that others should...

Indeed. He maybe should take his own advice and guide groups in winter as you did.

 

[J Willhaus]

Indeed. He maybe should take his own advice and guide groups in winter as you did.

I won't be bringing another group. I retired last week and am on on my way Saturday to "increase the crowding" in Alaska and Canada by camping all summer. Just Phil and I back on the Camino to walk and volunteer next year in late winter early spring!

 

[M2ME]

I won't be bringing another group. I retired last week and am on on my way Saturday to "increase the crowding" in Alaska and Canada by camping all summer. Just Phil and I back on the Camino to walk and volunteer next year in late winter early spring!

Congratulations. You don’t have to go far to lose the “crowd” in Canada or Alaska.

 

[Kathor1]

So let's have some more positive suggestions folks!

I am far from being an expert in problem solving methods but I think that the first step is a thorough analysis of a problem. A comparison with the PCT may be actually helpful. So there is the Pacific Crest Trail Association and they changed their name in 1992 to reflect the focus and volunteer structure of the new group as an individual membership organization, rather than a federation of outdoor clubs.

Is there anything comparable for the Caminos in Spain or at least the Camino Francés? I don't see it.

There is the Federación Española de Asociaciones de Amigos del Camino de Santiago which I think is a sort of umbrella organisation of the Camino de Santiago clubs in Spain. There are the regional Amigos del Camino de Santiago associations, like the one for El Bierzo, for Leon (or Leon y Castilla?), for La Rioja, and for Navarra, and also for towns like Estella. Possibly for Galicia, too. There is an Asociación de Municipios del Camino de Santiago which was formed fairly recently and a Camino Francés Féderacion which is even more recent and a kind of umbrella organisation of the Asociaciones de Amigos del Camino de Santiago Francés if I understand correctly. What are they all lobbying for if anything?

Or take the roads and paths - who is responsible for that, for signposting, for classification? Spain has apparently carreteras nacionales, comarcales, locales and de deputacion provincial. Which authority at the national level (though unlikely), regional, local and provincial level (disputacion) could put up signs to mark paths as "pedestrians only" and create or designate an alternative path for cyclists where this does not exist anyway? How to lobby for that? How many kilometres would be affected? I personally had no issues with cyclists. I never encountered them on narrow footpaths, they either used the road parallel to the footpath (when there was a parallel road) or a road a bit further away, or shared a secondary road (sometimes narrow and sometimes wider) with pedestrians and cars and tractors (although there was little traffic of the sort).

Although I don't bike on Camino I once bought a set of guidebooks for Camino pilgrims who cycle from the Low Countries to Santiago. I must dig them up to see the trajectory suggested for Camino cyclists and where, in Spain, it coincides with the designated trajectory for Camino walkers to get a bit of an idea of how big this problem actually could be.

 

[MinaKamina]

I read it this morning. Note he contributes to the crowding by bringing groups to this part of the Camino. He didn't say he'd be making a change himself only that others should...

Spaniards have a right to voice their opinion about matters in their own country and organize accordingly.
They also have the right to walk any camino at any time if they so please. Because it is their country.

FYI, this is what he says:

I believe that we are at a critical moment in which, or we all change something in our way of pilgrimage as well as in the way we organise the pilgrimage, or the Camino will die of success, as has happened in previous historical stages’.

Where did you read that according to him, only others should makes changes?

 

[Kathor1]

FYI, this is what he says: I believe that we are at a critical moment in which, or we all change something in our way of pilgrimage as well as in the way we organise the pilgrimage, or the Camino will die of success, as has happened in previous historical stages’.

If I may? Deepl.com makes a better job of the machine translation of the article mentioned in an earlier post.

Raúl Vincenzo Giglio from Madrid who has walked the Camino de Santiago 44 times and has been a guide for a countless number of groups is quoted as saying:​

We are at a critical juncture where we all either change somewhat how we do our pilgrimage and where the last sections of the Camino are regulated or the Camino will die of its own success.​

 

[lt56ny]

I have only read the headline section. I have just read @Anniesantiago saying she is saturated. I had prepared a reply to Annie, but deleted it. Your post, @Bradypus, has moved me to say that yes, I think the Camino event is a victim of its own success. Not the Pilgrimage. That will outlive the popularity.

Just wondering is Annie saturated by rain or is the adjective saturated in relation to something else? Thanks

 

[MinaKamina]

If I may? Deepl.com makes a better job of the machine translation of the article mentioned in an earlier post.

Raúl Vincenzo Giglio from Madrid who has walked the Camino de Santiago 44 times and has been a guide for a countless number of groups is quoted as saying:​

We are at a critical juncture where we all either change something in our way of pilgrimage and the where the last sections of the Camino are regulated or the Camino will die of its own success.​

Sure you may. This is interesting because I use Deepl too. What a difference a few minutes make!

 

[Walkalong]

Avoid tour group season?
Switch to a less busy Camino for the last 100 km?

Waking, cycling...the last 100 to SdC is only a requirement to collect a certificate. There is a big difference between a Pilgrimage and collecting a certificate or merit badge.

But his statement that "luggage or backpack transport companies, which, from Sarria, can be used by up to 80% of pilgrims" says a lot, for me at least.

 

[MinaKamina]

Avoid tour group season?
Switch to a less busy Camino for the last 100 km?

Waking, cycling...the last 100 to SdC is only a requirement to collect a certificate. There is a big difference between a Pilgrimage and collecting a certificate or merit badge.

But his statement that "luggage or backpack transport companies, which, from Sarria, can be used by up to 80% of pilgrims" says a lot, for me at least.

And what exactly does that say to you?

The full quote reads:

‘In order to count the number of pilgrims, we could use the companies that transport luggage or backpacks, which, from Sarria, up to 80% of the pilgrims may use.

To me, it reads that this man knows about statistics and the use of them in the context of the Camino. Very curious to know what you leave unsaid.

 

[Kathor1]

I can't imagine witnessing a brawl on the trail.

The guide of the group describes the exchange of words between the two opponents in a street of Portomarín as gritos indescifrables - indecipherable shouting - but I can practically hear them. I bet it started with one of the two peregrinos shouting Oi!

 

[Walkalong]

Initially I was surprised at the 80%, but "up to" leaves a very wide range, thus raising questions about the use of statistics.

I avoid that section of the Camino Frances - a least during tour bus season. Too many day packs on benches that many of us need to rest.

 

[SabsP]

I avoid that section of the Camino Frances - a least during tour bus season. Too many day packs on benches that many of us need to rest.

I hope it is ok that the locals sit on the benches? You know, the ones who pay the taxes in Spain for these benches.

 

[Walkalong]

Yes, benches are for sitting.
Why would you distinguish between locals or any person in need of a place to rest?

 

[Pilgrim9]

Compare to rivers:

A river start small, all alone, high up somewhere, and flows towards its destination. It is focussed on flowing downhill in the most efficient, and therefore most direct, path. Sooner or later, other rivers join it, increasing the watery volume. The river becomes bigger and bigger. This process of joining with other rivers continues again and again until flatter land is encountered.

As the now great river flows into the flat lands near the destination, the flatness of the land makes it more difficult for the river to keep to a direct path to its destination. The water slows down, the river becomes congested, and in contrast to its early life, the river naturally starts to fragment into a plethora of smaller branches, all flowing in separate paths through the river delta to the final destination. Such braided rivers or braided streams can be seen almost anywhere that a river flows through flat land to a sea, such as for example the triangular delta between Cairo, Alexandria, and Port Said. Another example is the Mississippi River delta at Pilottown, to the south-east of New Orleans.

The spreading-out into braided streams near the destination seems to be a natural phenomenon.

Unless I am in error, attempts to constrain the Mississippi within artificial levees in flat-land New Orleans have repeatedly failed to prevent colossal floods. The flow does not respect such attempts at regulation. It always finds a way around or through the controls.

...

The Camino Frances follows the aggregation-of-rivers model through much of its length, but does not spread out into braided paths as it approaches the destination (with, I think, just one exception: the Camino del Invierno).

Perhaps if the huge flood of pilgrims approaching SdC were actively encouraged to split into smaller, more manageable branches (more branches than just the Invierno), in the final, say, 100 km of the approach to SdC, the perceived flooding problems would start to diminish. A delta with numerous braided paths in the final 100 km would also help to maintain the interest of repeat pilgrims. That this might bring new economic stimulus to additional towns and villages in the notional Camino delta area is another plus.

 

[Gthiker]

I also worry not so much how the crowding affects pilgrims, but also the stress it puts on the people and towns along the way to supply the growing numbers. Some of the posts above mention that Spain should just increase the infrastructure for pilgrims. And while surely the Camino is source of income, the stress on garbage collection, sewer systems, water supplies, food production, etc. must be a problem. If one looks at the growth in numbers of pilgrims over the last several years, it is unlikely that infrastructure can grow that quickly. Particularly for the Sarria -SDC stretch.

How about offering a Compstela for other 100 km (or slightly greater) stretches for those with limted time? SJPP to Logrono, Logrono to Burgos, Burgos to Leon, Irun to Bilbao, Oviedo to Lugo, etc ( two stamps per day could still be required). Spread out the crowds.

And now for a more controversial comment. As a previous post implied, it's a bit disingenuous for someone who has done more than 40 Caminos , leading groups, to argue for decreasing the numbers of pilgrims. Perhaps for us to volunteer to do a journey just every so many years ( pick a number) would make for a better experience for those who may be only able( time, funds, health) to do one.

 

[Bradypus]

How about offering a Compstela for other 100 km (or slightly greater) stretches for those with limted time? SJPP to Logrono, Logrono to Burgos, Burgos to Leon, Irun to Bilbao, Oviedo to Lugo, etc ( two stamps per day could still be required). Spread out the crowds.

I think if you read the text of the Compostela it is very clear why it cannot be given for other stretches of the route.

 

[Gthiker]

Yes, I should not have used the term "Compostela" . But for pilgrims who don't want the crowds of the last 100k but would like to take home a cherished and official memento of time walking the Way of St. James, perhaps some sort of documentation of distance walked, ( pick your favorite title, I don't want to misspeak again), issued at a major site would be appropriate and appreciated. And also spread out the numbers of pilgrims.

 

[ShoshTrvls]

As I am not a Catholic, I confess (pun intended) I’m not quite sure what the Compostela does for most people other than acknowledge that they have walked at least 100KM to a very important religious place since indulgences are now only given on certain days and in a holy year and require additional steps, such as confession, which few do.

So it does seem to me that many people may feel satisfied with their accomplishments if they received some form of recognition/acknowledgement other places on the Camino with historical or religious significance. Walking 100km to Padron for a Padronia, for example, or maybe getting a document of some sort at the magnificent Cathedral in Leon. That might, over time, move the needle on reducing some of the congestion into SdC.

 

[Tincatinker]

Okay, I think this is far enough for me. This far but no further. A Camino predator says he’s getting overwhelmed by the migratory herds. Sorry, a professional guide to the Camino says he can’t cope with the demand. Turismo Galicia have sown their seed and now they can’t find their sickle (?) The lions of the Serengeti can’t be bothered to react to the safari buses unless someone throws a few rock at them. The tour guide to the Catacomb San Gennaro repeats herself three times and then says “sorry, did I say that already? I’ve done 10 of these today”.

I asked a few weeks ago “does anyone walk to the bones anymore?” and it seems not, except perhaps @Bradypus and me (and I don’t think I’m going again).

In my moderator days on this forum we used to recognize “fighting season”: that time of year, deep winter when few were walking but many were prepared to debate the angels-on-a-pinhead or smelliest Albergue till blood was nearly drawn. But, IMDHO, (in my desperately held opinion) we were still, at least, discussing pilgrimage. Now, now I see discussion of the failure of pilgrimage to deliver a satisfactory process. “I walked (some of) the way to Santiago and all I got was an unchanged life”.

But hey, the past is a different country and they do things differently there…

 

[grayland]

A very simple solution would be to make luggage transfer illegal.
This would reduce the numbers by about 50% and return the Camino to a semblance of sanity.
The end is near.

 

[Tincatinker]

Hey, could we make smoothies and cappuccino illegal as well? It’s cafe con leche or nowt

 

[dbier]

Hey, could we make smoothies and cappuccino illegal as well? It’s cafe con leche or nowt

As one who still walks to the bones for the souls of others , and as one who uses luggage transport, and as one who has walked 2 different routes ( at least until Melide) I have .... thoughts.

If the goal is simply to reduce crowds, telling people that they cant have a credential, stay in albergues, or collect Compostela unless they are walking for explicit religious/ spiritual reasons would work much faster and more effectively than anything else suggested here.

But that wasn't Father Elias's goal in 1984 when he set about marking arrows with a can of yellow paint, who told the old Guardia Civil when asked that he was " planning for an invasion." Nor is it my personal goal, to want to prevent people from coming to look, coming to see, coming to find. I want all seekers to come, and come again, as they are moved to do so.

If local communities need to reap more from us travelers in order to maintain or improve infrastructure, then allow them to collect local/ regional taxes from places we frequent. Prices go up, demand comes down. Fairly simple.

And God, how I miss café con leche...

 

[Pilgrim9]

A very simple solution would be to make luggage transfer illegal.

Making luggage transfer illegal would necessitate the writing and passing by the government of a law. How, exactly, should such a law be phrased (if it was written in English)?

Of course the law would not be written in English, but for the sake of discussion, and since most of us on this forum speak English, let us pretend that it would be written in English.

 

[JabbaPapa]

An odd article -- on the one hand, he's sentimental about the Camino in the 1990s, but then calls for a touristified regulation of the Camino tomorrow.

Clearly if we are talking about a permit system to walk the camino then the infringement would be 'Walking the Camino without a permit' or similar.

soooooo, a State-provided permit to go on a religious pilgrimage, subjecting Church to State ?

What I was hoping to see from long-term forum members is more positive suggestions to help alleviate the pressures that the camino is facing. I repeat:
"It's very easy for us to say why we think something won't work, it's actually very hard to think of potential solutions that could."

So let's have some more positive suggestions folks!

Here's one -- carry a sleeping bag and a sleeping mat or inflatable mattress, and be prepared to sleep outside if necessary.

You claim that there is a "problem" of some kind. Well, I disagree that there is is one in the first place, except maybe for some individual problems of personal attitudes.

 

[JabbaPapa]

How about offering a Compstela for other 100 km (or slightly greater) stretches for those with limted time? SJPP to Logrono, Logrono to Burgos, Burgos to Leon, Irun to Bilbao, Oviedo to Lugo, etc ( two stamps per day could still be required). Spread out the crowds.

That would not be a pilgrimage to the Tomb of the Apostle.

The Compostela is a Catholic religious document, not a certificate for hiking or biking.

As I am not a Catholic, I confess (pun intended) I’m not quite sure what the Compostela does for most people other than acknowledge that they have walked at least 100KM to a very important religious place since indulgences are now only given on certain days and in a holy year and require additional steps, such as confession, which few do.

The Compostela and the Indulgences are entirely unrelated to each other.

Someone living in Compostela or going privately to the city by car can obtain the indulgences with no long-distance walking whatsoever.

As one who still walks to the bones for the souls of others , and as one who uses luggage transport, and as one who has walked 2 different routes ( at least until Melide) I have .... thoughts.

If the goal is simply to reduce crowds, telling people that they cant have a credential, stay in albergues, or collect Compostela unless they are walking for explicit religious/ spiritual reasons would work much faster and more effectively than anything else suggested here.

Religiously, the Camino is also a Way of Conversion, so that excluding all non-Catholics would be deeply contrary to its nature. In a bygone era, a non-Catholic could not get a Compostela, but in that bygone era the stats show that non-Catholics still walked the Camino.

As to explicit religious/ spiritual reasons, well as someone said in a recent thread, "pilgrims lie".

 

[JabbaPapa]

Call me cynical, but if a quota & permit system were introduced, wouldn't organised tour companies like his be able to buy them in bulk, and then stand to gain significantly from being in a position whereby they could profit greatly from their ability to re-sell them within their guided tour offers ?

 

[Kathor1]

Oh dear, so many posts to comment upon and I am, yet again, trying to rein myself in except where I really can't resist :

A Camino predator says

Why not make it "a greedy capitalist Camino predator"? OK, perhaps it was meant in jest but why comment in this and other posts on the person of the interviewee in the news article? On a man who was interviewed for a La Voz de Galicia article as a Spanish person who has known what walking the Camino (Francés) is like since 1991 and who has some personal ideas for the future, and about whose person, whether privately or professionally, we know next to nothing?

Father Elias's goal in 1984 when he set about marking arrows with a can of yellow paint, who told the old Guardia Civil when asked that he was " planning for an invasion."

This is one of those quotes that belong most likely to the category "They never said it". The quote is apocryphal, and when this endearing story is being told in a version where he supposedly said these words to Guardia Civil officers who asked what he was doing then it is most certainly not a fact because afaik Elías Valiña did not paint yellow arrows there, it was done by other pioneers of the Camino revival in Spain. He was not only a parish priest in O Cebreiro but a scholar with a strong interest in the medieval history of the pilgrimage to Saint James. He obtained a doctorate and his thesis has the title "The Way of Saint James. A historical-legal study". I sometimes wonder what he had hoped to see happen as a result of his own efforts and the efforts of the Camino association of Estella, another driving force behind the Camino Francés revival. Elías Valiña died in 1989.

since indulgences are now only given on certain days and in a holy year

Getting a bit acquainted with the background of the history of the pilgrimage to Saint James is a great opportunity to learn not only something about oneself but also about other faiths. In 2024 - five hundred years after the abolishment of paid indulgences and a reform in the Catholic Church i.e. not the Protestant Reformation but the Catholic Counter Reformation in the 16th century - partial and plenary indulgences may be obtained by a Catholic every single day of the year at every place in the world and without walking even a kilometre and even without leaving home!!! No special days of the year are needed, no special places have to be visited, no Holy Years are necessary. Special days, places or years are merely special occasions but they are not a requirement for obtaining a plenary indulgence. It is similar to going to mass on a normal Sunday and going to mass on Easter Sunday. Same thing, just one occasion feels more special and festive than the other one.

And of course partial and plenary indulgences have absolutely zero nothing nada to do with the Compostela. Never have.

 

[Kathor1]

The fact that more certificates are being proposed, for example for any 100 km walked, is a sign of how the perception of walking to erstwhile "Saint James in Galicia" has changed. The focus is now on The Way and not on The Destination. It is no surprise that medieval pilgrims inevitably referred to "going to Saint James in Galicia" while today we refer to "going on Camino". In English, even the name of the saint has disappeared from the name of the pilgrimage road in common parlance. It is now the Camino de Santiago and no longer Way of Saint James.

This is merely an observation and not criticism or a lament.

In general, in order to have a meaningful discussion about the future and what could possibly be done about it, it would be better to let go of seeing it all from one's personal perspective, for example no backpack transport, no prebooking, staying in albergue dormitories, no going with an organised group or else I will feel so sad for you and it is not what it used to be when I walked in 2004 or in 2015, but rather a focus on why so many people travel to Spain to walk there today.

 

[Pafayac]

Perhaps we have to think about (and if possible answer), several questions:
A) Do I personally think there are too many pilgrims on the Camino ?

1. "too many" for my comfort ? Because it becomes difficult to find accommodations ?
2. "too many" for the inhabitants close to the Camino, for the Galician people ?

B) What, according to me, is the reason that drives so many pilgrims on the Camino ?

1. the wish to say "I did it !" ?
2. the need to see the tomb of St James ? The atmosphere ? The sceneries ? The feeling to be in communion with ancient pilgrims ?
3. the willing to walk on a well-marked itinerary

If the answer to A) is "no", Buen Camino, you can finish reading and start walking.
Otherwise, if the answer to A.1. is "yes", perhaps I should choose another Camino, less crowded, and/or another season ? Finish reading and start planning, except if the answer to A.2. is "yes"...
If the anwser to A.2. is "yes", perhaps should I change my speech on the Camino, adding some poisonous snakes on the Meseta, some hungry bears in the Pyrenees, some fierce outlaws...
B1) => The Compostela should be delivered on request to anyone ask for it, regardless he has walked or not.
B2) => Am I sure the tomb is here ? Am I sure the atmosphere will remain good if I add one more pilgrim to the crowd ? Should I try to discover nice sceneries elsewhere ? The ancient pilgrims were sometimes penitents, or even bad reputation guys who were punished...
C3) => Assisi Way, Francigena Way... are others well-marked itineraries.

If I choose to walk the Camino, despite considering it is too crowded, is that reasonable ?

 

[RJM]

Permits to walk the Camino?
Law enforcement task forces specific for the task assigned.
Violators detained, forcibly removed from the path and fined?
That's some of the dumbest I've heard on here.

 

[Richard Smith]

A permit system only works when it gives access to a defined resource - e.g. beds.

I have permit-walked mainly in Australia and New Zealand, and in my small experience there are three types - those that have exactly the number of beds/camp platforms as number of issued permits along the entire walk (eg Three Capes and Milford), those that to a smaller or larger degree have some places with more beds/platforms or alternate stops (eg Overland Track, Walls of Jerusalem) and those where you need to book specific places each night (eg Heaphy, Abel Tasman).

The first case (number of permits = number of sleep spots each night) requires one direction of walk and one night per stop, not my personal idea of a camino. The third case is booking ahead, which people can do now on the camino if they wish.

If the "problem" being solved is overcrowding, perhaps the second case warrants exploring. Perhaps creating a municipal/donativo/parish route where the numbers walking it can be accommodated more or less all along the way -i.e. adding beds to remove the choke points for these types and then creating some criteria for pilgrims to join that stream. Note that private alberges, hotels etc can happily live along side this.

When I walked the CF my wife and I arrived late at Roncesvalles and we got beds but Zubiri/Larasouna was full the next night. But now when I look at the guidebooks it seems to me that there are roughly the same number of beds at each place so in theory if you get a bed in Roncesvalles you should be able to get a bed the next night, and then there is Pamplona with more accommodation.

But this will not totally stop the bed race. Even on the Milford track where exactly the same number of beds and walkers exist each night, some people (including me) still try to get ahead and get bunks together or bottom bunks or near the door.... but at least you have a bed.

 

[Kathor1]

Examining Motivations to Walk the Camino de Santiago: A Typology of Pilgrims - Pastoral Psychology

The purpose of this article is to develop a comprehensive understanding of people’s motivations for going on the Camino de Santiago pilgrimage using qualitative and quantitative methods. The methodology comprised qualitative research based on content analysis of 32 travelogue testimonies and...

link.springer.com

Long. For the seriously interested . Does not only deal with own findings, including pointing out limitations of their own survey samples and methods but refers also to other studies. On a Springer website but free online access.

PS: It is an "open access" article and it was published in April 2023. It's 22 pages.

 

[LTfit]

So nobody thinks a permit system would work? That's fine.

What I was hoping to see from long-term forum members is more positive suggestions to help alleviate the pressures that the camino is facing. I repeat:
"It's very easy for us to say why we think something won't work, it's actually very hard to think of potential solutions that could."

So let's have some more positive suggestions folks!

The Camino de Santiago is a pilgrimage from village to village, open to all, even locals out on their daily walk. It's not a thru-hike in the wilderness so a permit system is not the solution. The idea makes me cringe!

A positive suggestion? One that comes to mind and which I fully endorse is to offer the Compostela to anyone who wants one, whether you walk 3,000 km or 5 km. There will always be someone who walks more or much less than you. Who cares! We are all sharing a pilgrimage path and no one is better than someone else just because they walked more steps than you! But...

1) this will not fly with those in power in Santiago and
2) the other power player, the Xunta de Galicia, likes things just as they are. Why wouldn't they, the last 100 km of all routes are in Galicia!

The FICS has lobbied for years to increase the distance required to walk to receive a Compostela from 100 km to 300 km. 300 km to me is also imho arbitrary. Either way, no one with power (the 2 mentioned above) is interested.

Other suggestions which are doable? Walk off season or at least not in May or September (along the Francés) or choose one of the many, many other Camino routes.

 

[David Tallan]

This is one of those quotes that belong most likely to the category "They never said it". The quote is apocryphal, and when this endearing story is being told in a version where he supposedly said these words to Guardia Civil officers who asked what he was doing then it is most certainly not a fact because afaik Elías Valiña did not paint yellow arrows there, it was done by other pioneers of the Camino revival in Spain. He was not only a parish priest in O Cebreiro but a scholar with a strong interest in the medieval history of the pilgrimage to Saint James. He obtained a doctorate and his thesis has the title "The Way of Saint James. A historical-legal study". I sometimes wonder what he had hoped to see happen as a result of his own efforts and the efforts of the Camino association of Estella, another driving force behind the Camino Francés revival. Elías Valiña died in 1989.

The source I have found for this anecdote, and that Father Elias was responsible for introducing the yellow arrows is Laurie Dennett, who I believe knew Father Elias personally and has a fair background in the modern revival of the Camino. Do you have reason to doubt her?

 

[ShoshTrvls]

That would not be a pilgrimage to the Tomb of the Apostle.

The Compostela is a Catholic religious document, not a certificate for hiking or biking.


The Compostela and the Indulgences are entirely unrelated to each other.

Someone living in Compostela or going privately to the city by car can obtain the indulgences with no long-distance walking whatsoever.


Religiously, the Camino is also a Way of Conversion, so that excluding all non-Catholics would be deeply contrary to its nature. In a bygone era, a non-Catholic could not get a Compostela, but in that bygone era the stats show that non-Catholics still walked the Camino.

As to explicit religious/ spiritual reasons, well as someone said in a recent thread, "pilgrims lie".

Indulgences may be separate from the Compostela, but my understanding is that Santiago became a highly sought-after pilgrimage because it was a place where plenary indulgences were granted. If I’m wrong on that score, I apologize for my religious ignorance.

My larger point is that a great number of people on the Camino, likely the majority of them at this point, are not doing it for explicitly Catholic reasons or to see the Tomb of the Apostle. But they are walking to find something, whether it is clarity in life choices, to be closer to g-d, or to find internal calm, and most want to get to an end point and say, “I completed this physical and spiritual journey.” It seems to me that those desires can be met by having other “end points” that have meaning. And finally, I would expect that people can be moved to convert, or to become more faithful to the Church, during such a walk without getting to SdC.

 

[isawtman]

As I have written before, I think an alternate route should be developed after Portomarin.
Several little towns that are not on the current route have pilgrims statues in them,
so, at some point, pilgrims did walk through those towns.

 

[Kathor1]

The source I have found for this anecdote, and that Father Elias was responsible for introducing the yellow arrows is Laurie Dennett, who I believe knew Father Elias personally and has a fair background in the modern revival of the Camino. Do you have reason to doubt her?

Yes I do but I am now going to rely on my memory of what I read and not looking anything up to check. It is an anecdote that Elías Valiña never told himself. There have been quibbles (not between the two men but between those who lived then and how they now remember things from those days 40 years ago) about yellow arrows and Elías Valiña and Andrés Muñoz, and also Javier Navarro, as to who initially created the signalisation in the Navarra region. It is irrelevant for the topic of this thread and I regret already that I had responded to the post.

A casual online look appears to tell me that around 400 pilgrims obtained a Compostela in 1984 or 1986 or thereabouts when the story of the flechas amarillas started, and I doubt that anybody, not even a gifted visionary, saw the 450,000 Compostelas of the year 2023 coming ... which is why I had reacted to the post that said:

If the goal is simply to reduce crowds, telling people that they cant have a credential, stay in albergues, or collect Compostela unless they are walking for explicit religious/ spiritual reasons would work much faster and more effectively than anything else suggested here.

But that wasn't Father Elias's goal in 1984 when he set about marking arrows with a can of yellow paint, who told the old Guardia Civil when asked that he was "planning for an invasion."

 

[dougfitz]

I've just read this article from La Voz de Galicia. A Camino guide and frequent pilgrim with over 30 years of Camino experience calling for some greater regulation of numbers - at least on the final stages. Prompted by the sight of pilgrims coming to blows near Portomarin.

Un guía lanza la voz de alarma: «Asistí a una pelea entre peregrinos y hasta ahora me parecía imposible mezclar puñetazos y Camino»

El madrileño Raúl Vincenzo Giglio, tras recorrer la ruta a Santiago 44 veces y guiar a infinitos grupos, comparte su lamento: «Estamos en un momento crítico en el que o cambiamos algo todos nosotros nuestra forma de peregrinar y se regula el último tramo, o el Camino puede morir de éxito»

www.lavozdegalicia.es

Thank you for sharing this. The incident that led to this might well have been distressing, and out of character with our expectations of pilgrims on the Camino. Nonetheless, to me this looks more like confected outrage or a journalist looking for a story to fill some space than anything else. I think any serious discussion on this would want to examine a broader range of approaches than the simplistic and perhaps unworkable proposal to introduce a quota system. I will look out for that.

 

[JabbaPapa]

A positive suggestion? One that comes to mind and which I fully endorse is to offer the Compostela to anyone who wants one, whether you walk 3,000 km or 5 km.

That was the old system.

It would be utterly ruinous financially and especially organisationally in the 21st Century, given the MASSIVE increase in total pilgrim numbers, including of course the majority of pilgrims who make their way by motor transport.

 

[trecile]

That was the old system.

It would be utterly ruinous financially and especially organisationally in the 21st Century, given the MASSIVE increase in total pilgrim numbers, including of course the majority of pilgrims who make their way by motor transport.

They could charge a fee for the Compostela.

 

[JabbaPapa]

They could charge a fee for the Compostela.

They do.

It's the €2 donation that you pay for any Credencial.

 

[Pafayac]

They do.

It's the €2 donation that you pay for any Credencial.

I think this rather goes to the Credential issuer, not to the Pilgrim Office at Santiago.

 

[LTfit]

They do.

It's the €2 donation that you pay for any Credencial

Was I sleeping when I received my x number of Compostelas? I've never paid for one. A tube is €2 but I've never gotten one, nor a distance certificate which (I may be wrong) you do pay for.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I think this rather goes to the Credential issuer, not to the Pilgrim Office at Santiago.

No, it goes to the Pilgrim Office.

 

[TheRealPixie]

But "the Camino" is made up of all kinds of paths and roads that local people use. I can imagine the reaction that Spaniards would have if they were required to have a permit to walk or cycle on their local roads and paths!
It ain't ever going to happen.

Hmm. yes and no. Maybe the local folks would like it as it would mean a quieter walk? In my city, we have permitted parking by neighborhood. It's wonderful in areas that are crowded, has time limited or pay parking. The sticker gives an exemption for residents (a sticker on the car or a card to hang on the rearview.) It ensures residents have a place on their street to park. My state has many permitted trails to keep the crowds out and preserve the habitat.
A permit system seems like a good solution to me. I wish I could limit all the visitors to my neighborhood's farmer's market. Every Sunday afternoon is a madhouse. LOL!

 

[C clearly]

Maybe the local folks would like it as it would mean a quieter walk? In my city, we have permitted parking by neighborhood.

Yes, cities of Spain have parking restrictions, too, and restrictions on use of certain areas. But do you have restricted walking on your otherwise-public sidewalks?

I wish I could limit all the visitors to my neighborhood's farmer's market.

But there are important reasons why you can't. Those reasons apply to the streets and markets of Spain. The Camino is a construct of our imaginations rather than a piece of land that can be fenced.

 

[Pafayac]

No, it goes to the Pilgrim Office.

I belong to 2 pilgrim associations and I have asked them.
The first one (SFASJC) just answered:
"The price paid by a pilgrim for a credential is entirely for the SFASJC which designs and prints the credential. There is no fee due to Pilgrims Office in Santiago"

 

[dougfitz]

Several little towns that are not on the current route have pilgrims statues in them,
so, at some point, pilgrims did walk through those towns.

On this basis, the Thames River once flowed through Lake Havasu City in Arizona!

I suspect that many small towns and villages adjacent to the narrowly defined camino routes already get some benefit from the camino. I know that over the years, I have stayed in such places, and have spoken to others who have done the same. It hasn't been many, but I am but one of many who walk and who might find it necessary to look for accommodation a little further from the narrowly defined route.

 

[isawtman]

On this basis, the Thames River once flowed through Lake Havasu City in Arizona!

Lake Havasu City is 5500 miles from the Thames River. The next town off
the Camino is only about 3 to 5 km

 

[JabbaPapa]

I belong to 2 pilgrim associations and I have asked them.
The first one (SFASJC) just answered:
"The price paid by a pilgrim for a credential is entirely for the SFASJC which designs and prints the credential. There is no fee due to Pilgrims Office in Santiago"

hmmmmm seems I was mis-remembering.

https://pelerinsdecompostelle.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Credencial-del-Peregrino.pdf

There's a €2 price limit (or was in 2016), and they request a contribution to the Pilgrim's Office.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Huh !!

Here's something I didn't know !!

A certificate is available for ANYONE who visits the Cathedral, for €3.

La Compostela y otros certificados del Peregrino | Tee Travel

Muchos peregrinos quieren tener un certificado que les avale su aventura. Son la Compostela y otros certificados del Peregrino. Descúbrelos.

www.tee-travel.com

Certificado de visita​

La Catedral de Santiago, en su sede de la Archicofradía del Apóstol Santiago, junto a la Puerta Santa, situada en la Plaza de la Quintana, emite un certificado de visita para todos aquellos que quieran un recuerdo de su visita a la Catedral de Santiago y la tumba del Apóstol ya sean peregrinos o no.

Tiene un costo de 3 € y al igual que el Certificado de Distancia en su diseño tiene elementos del Códice Calixtino y la imagen del Apóstol que se puede ver en el interior de la Catedral en el Pórtico de la Gloria.

 

[dougfitz]

Lake Havasu City is 5500 miles from the Thames River.

I understood that is where London Bridge is located. Clearly evidence that the Thames flowed there!

 

[caminka]

I read it this morning. Note he contributes to the crowding by bringing groups to this part of the Camino. He didn't say he'd be making a change himself only that others should...

This is an interesting point, it gave me a suggestion: introduce permits for organised groups.

Many complaints about lack of available beds are linked to groups booking most of beds in albergues, sometimes in unexpected off-stage towns with limited capabilities, and sometimes in municipals which are unbookable by individuals. It is logical but can cause problems and stress for individual pilgrims.

Organised groups of pilgrims are often not walking the whole camino (here this being mostly CF) but portions of it here and there, and hopefully the whole last 100km which, according to reports, is not always the case.

Such permits might the easiest to achieve? Perhaps a definition of an organised group should be made, e.g. 10+ people. With a guide?

Money from these permits should of course go towards maintaing camino infrastructure.

 

[Flog]

Huh !!

Here's something I didn't know !!

A certificate is available for ANYONE who visits the . €3.

It isn't openly on display and it's rarely asked for. But it's sometimes offered as a consolation prize to someone who doesn't qualify for a compostela. A pretty certificate in it's own right!

 

[Pafayac]

There's a €2 price limit (or was in 2016), and they request a contribution to the Pilgrim's Office.

Yes but this one has been issued by the Pilgrim's Office

 

[Bonitatime]

Interestingly it was one of the reasons we did the last 100 km from Ourense to Santiago de Compostela
walking the week after the may bank holiday I understood there would be a lot of people on the Frances.
Over touristification is a ongoing worry in Spain with the rental prices it brings being its major downfall

 

[ShoshTrvls]

That was the old system.

It would be utterly ruinous financially and especially organisationally in the 21st Century, given the MASSIVE increase in total pilgrim numbers, including of course the majority of pilgrims who make their way by motor transport.

Although, if anyone could get a Compostela by simply showing up, how many would? It seems at that point it would revert to its original intended purposes and would not necessarily be desired by anyone not a Catholic truly coming to see the Tomb. Indeed, many walkers might shun it after a time.

 

[Roland49]

I follow this discussion in the last few days and for me it's clear: any for profit organisation should be forced to be member of a chamber / fraternity that maintain and market the Caminos. Otherwise they would not be allowed to offer their walks.
It should be like in the Alps, where you need to be a trained professional and member of any given mountaineering organisation to offer climbs and walks.

 

[Bradypus]

Although, if anyone could get a Compostela by simply showing up, how many would?

Hard to say. At the time of my first Camino there was no set minimum distance to receive a Compostela. Just under 5,000 received a Compostela that year although they were at least theoretically available for the asking. And yet most of the people who did ask for one had walked much further than 100km. In effect the 100km minimum distance rule seems to have encouraged people to walk shorter Caminos than were the norm before its introduction.

 

[Kathor1]

Such permits might the easiest to achieve? Perhaps a definition of an organised group should be made, e.g. 10+ people. With a guide?

But again, should one not distinguish between overcrowding or too many pilgrims as in "demand for beds is higher than supply of beds" and overcrowding or too many pilgrims as in "too many pilgrims walking on a day when I am walking"?

I can only go by the posts on the forum which are anecdotal. My impression is this:

The complaints of the first kind appear in certain weeks of the pilgrimage season and they concern mainly the Roncesvalles-Pamplona section and some small villages like Hontanas (or is it Hornillos) later on. The complaints of the second kind appear mainly for the section Sarría to Santiago. Is there actually a shortage of beds in Galicia - either private albergues, casa rurales etc or the Xunta albergues or both together? Is there an issue with group bookings on the section Sarría to Santiago? Do the Xunta albergues even handle group bookings unlike some municipal albergues in Navarra and La Rioja? I am really curious. I vaguely remember having read that during the Holy Year there were options to stay in "pabellones" in Galicia (I believe it means sports centres and the like in this context) that were open to parish groups on pilgrimage to Santiago but not to Camino pilgrims as such. My memory may be wrong though.

 

[isawtman]

I understood that is where London Bridge is located. Clearly evidence that the Thames flowed there!

The London Bridge was disassembled and rebuilt at Lake Havasu City. Pilgrim Statues are
still sitting there from 100s of years ago. They have not been moved. So, I'm not sure
what your logic is.

 

[Kathor1]

I'm not sure what your logic is.

What @dougfitz tried to communicate, and I agree with him, is this: Your argument
that several little towns that are not on the current route have pilgrims statues in them, so, at some point, pilgrims did walk through those towns is not going to fly with anyone who has a say in developing pilgrimage routes based on (medieval) pilgrimage history.

I am not sure what you mean by "pilgrims statues". If you mean statues of actual pilgrims then these statues date from the last few decades and they are a new development and a contemporary tribute to pilgrimage - this kind of public sculptures did not exist in the past. If you mean statues of saints dressed in traditional pilgrim garb - Saint James, Saint Roch and Archangel Saint Raphael come to mind and you can see either of these three saints in churches along the Camino Francés - then their clothes and other items like staff or shell are merely attributes or "signature lines" of these saints and not proof that pilgrims walked there. You can find such statues not only along the Caminos in Spain but everywhere in Europe in churches and wayside shrines on and off former pilgrimage roads.

 

[Pafayac]

Saying: "Pilgrims uses to cross this town" or "Pilgrims walked on this route centuries ago" is often hypothetic.
There are several points where we can guess medieval pilgrims were walking:
- passes between mountains (eg, Somport or Roncesvalles)
- hospitals where they were able to find food, bed, or even care
- famous shrines
But apart from this, it is difficult to tell "Ancient pilgrims were walking there and not there".
Notion of specific way is quite recent: in the old times, they were probably walk where they could, to avoid thieves, to take benefit of lord protection...

Do not forget that now, there is a business issue.

 

[BarbaraW]

I believe the caminos de Santiago in Iberia are the only walking pilgrimage routes in the world where, depending on route, it is possible to:

• walk less than 20k a day and sleep under a roof each night, and
• spend 40 euros a day or less for accommodation and food; and
• meet people from all over the world and have as much company as you wish; and
• have luggage transported; and
• not worry about finding the route (usually!); and
• not book ahead except for peak routes and seasons.

I should be glad to know if this is not correct! A solo pilgrimage in my own country would cost around three times as much per day, and probably not be possible in shorter stages.

While that is the case, and now "The Camino Experience" is offered by so many tour operators and features in so many guides and "bucket lists", it is hard to see what could realistically be done to ease the demand.

Perhaps members of this forum can help at the margin by ensuring that those contemplating their first camino are aware of of its origins and purpose, and of the pressures at peak times.

Or of course by keeping their enthusiasm to themselves, though that hardly seems in the right spirit!

 

[JabbaPapa]

any for profit organisation

The Catholic Church is not a for profit organisation.

The fact that you can get your Credencial for €2 and your Compostela for free should be sufficient to disabuse you of that notion.

 

[isawtman]

I am not sure what you mean by "pilgrims statues".

I'm not talking about a statue of a pilgrims.
Instead I am talking about the type of statues that guide
pilgrims to Santiago.

 

[Pilgrim9]

I understood that is where London Bridge is located. Clearly evidence that the Thames flowed there!

There is a finite number of water molecules on earth, and they get around a lot. It is quite likely that many of those who have stared up at the undersides of Tower Bridge in London, UK, have also at one time or another ogled the undersides of London Bridge in the U.S.A.

One could think about all the other places some of the water molecules one drinks every day might have visited ... but perhaps it's better not to . Anyway, even the most "experienced" water gets naturally distilled into a semblance of purity by the evaporation / rainfall cycle.

 

[dougfitz]

I'm not talking about a statue of a pilgrims.
Instead I am talking about the type of statues that guide
pilgrims to Santiago.

I have never seen these, but I have never walked the alternative routes you keep thinking exist as a way to reach SDC. Those that I have seen on the formal routes don't, at least in my view, lend themselves to the interpretation you are suggesting. Rather, I consider @Kathar1na's explanation is more likely to explain the origins of the many older and more modern installations. Perhaps you can explain this in some more compelling way that gives more credibility to your suggestion - other, perhaps, than you have developed a novel explanation yourself.

 

[David Tallan]

I'm not talking about a statue of a pilgrims.
Instead I am talking about the type of statues that guide
pilgrims to Santiago.

And what type of statues would those be? This is the first I've heard of them.

 

[Kathor1]

More study material for the seriously interested . A summary article and a link to the actual document. 252 pages.

This covers the period of time between the two Holy Years 2021 and 2027.

Master Plan of the Caminos de Santiago in the Autonomous Community of Galicia 2022-2027

 

[caminka]

But again, should one not distinguish between overcrowding or too many pilgrims as in "demand for beds is higher than supply of beds" and overcrowding or too many pilgrims as in "too many pilgrims walking on a day when I am walking"?

I can only go by the posts on the forum which are anecdotal. My impression is this:

The complaints of the first kind appear in certain weeks of the pilgrimage season and they concern mainly the Roncesvalles-Pamplona section and some small villages like Hontanas (or is it Hornillos) later on. The complaints of the second kind appear mainly for the section Sarría to Santiago. Is there actually a shortage of beds in Galicia - either private albergues, casa rurales etc or the Xunta albergues or both together? Is there an issue with group bookings on the section Sarría to Santiago? Do the Xunta albergues even handle group bookings unlike some municipal albergues in Navarra and La Rioja? I am really curious. I vaguely remember having read that during the Holy Year there were options to stay in "pabellones" in Galicia (I believe it means sports centres and the like in this context) that were open to parish groups on pilgrimage to Santiago but not to Camino pilgrims as such. My memory may be wrong though.

I completely agree it's impossible to say anything definitive without extensive research on the terrain. My knowledge of the situation is based on the occasional browsing of this forum and my last CF which was may-june 2022.

I ran into one continuous cludge of pilgrims out of Portomarin (I slept in Morgade) when it seemed that all daypacks left the town after breakfast at about eight. I waited them out then continued to San Xulian (called in the afternoon and got what looked to be the last bed).
I called Morgade in the morning when I decided where I wanted to stay and was lucky to get a bed. I came from Lusio where I had all the amazing albergue mansion to myself.
The next day I stayed in off-route albergue in Taberna Vella and there were only three or four of us there. I had a room to myself.

Before Galicia, I sometimes called ahead if I really wanted to stay somewhere and sometimes I just winged it.
There were a few full towns, like Pamplona on a Saturday (I stopped early in Casa Paderborn), Mansilla and Foncebadon, where pilgrims needed to find alternatives.
But even albergues in mid-stage towns filled up by the end of the day (Uterga, Atapuerca, Poblacion de Campos, Riego de Ambros).
Only truly off-stage albergues were not full (Luquin, Pradela, Lusio).
I didn't have run-ins with any groups, though, fortunately.
That was supposed to be the not-so-busy period before 2023 crowds.

 

[caminka]

More study material for the seriously interested . A summary article and a link to the actual document. 252 pages.

This covers the period of time between the two Holy Years 2021 and 2027.

Master Plan of the Caminos de Santiago in the Autonomous Community of Galicia 2022-2027

Omigosh. Maybe when I'm on the train to my next camino.

 

[Quietways]

More study material for the seriously interested . A summary article and a link to the actual document. 252 pages.

This covers the period of time between the two Holy Years 2021 and 2027.

Master Plan of the Caminos de Santiago in the Autonomous Community of Galicia 2022-2027

Thanks Kathar1na. For those interested a direct link to the PDF in Spanish can be found here: Master Plan

 

[Pilgrim9]

The Catholic Church is not a for profit organisation.

The fact that you can get your Credencial for €2 and your Compostela for free should be sufficient to disabuse you of that notion.

I don't understand. This comment appears to be refuting some claim or implication purportedly made by, or belief held by, Roland49, that the Catholic Church is a for-profit organization, however, I can find no such claim or implication. Did I miss something?

 

[dick bird]

The London Bridge was disassembled and rebuilt at Lake Havasu City. Pilgrim Statues are
still sitting there from 100s of years ago. They have not been moved. So, I'm not sure
what your logic is.

I think Doug is trying to point out that a town having a statue of a pilgrim is not proof that it was ever on a Camino route - an indication that it might have been, but not proof.

 

[C clearly]

I don't understand. This comment appears to be refuting some claim or implication purportedly made by, or belief held by, Roland49, that the Catholic Church is a for-profit organization, however, I can find no such claim or implication. Did I miss something?

They were talking at cross-purposes, as outlined below:

any for profit organisation

He was suggesting that for-profit organizations that offer guided walks should be regulated.

The Catholic Church is not a for profit organisation.

Non sequitur. Nobody said otherwise, and besides, the Catholic Church is not in the business of offering guided walks.

 

[Forward]

I've just read this article from La Voz de Galicia. A Camino guide and frequent pilgrim with over 30 years of Camino experience calling for some greater regulation of numbers - at least on the final stages. Prompted by the sight of pilgrims coming to blows near Portomarin.

Un guía lanza la voz de alarma: «Asistí a una pelea entre peregrinos y hasta ahora me parecía imposible mezclar puñetazos y Camino»

El madrileño Raúl Vincenzo Giglio, tras recorrer la ruta a Santiago 44 veces y guiar a infinitos grupos, comparte su lamento: «Estamos en un momento crítico en el que o cambiamos algo todos nosotros nuestra forma de peregrinar y se regula el último tramo, o el Camino puede morir de éxito»

www.lavozdegalicia.es

Maybe you should only walk once ?
Many that argue it’s too busy have walked many times!

 

[WGroleau]

Do I want to see this happen? Heck no!
Might it become necessary? Sadly, yes.

Do I want to see this happen? Heck no!
Might it become necessary? Probably not. Eventually the news will get around that it’s unpleasantly crowded, leading to far fewer people being attracted to it. And if not, many of us will just walk somewhere else. If any trail requires a permit or signing up for a specific date, I’ll for sure go somewhere else.

 

[wisepilgrim]

Why not do away with the Compostela entirely? Surely that would have an effect on the number of pilgrims focusing only on the last 100km.