Donativo - How much is enough/too much?

[SYates]

Over the years I had many conversations, both as a hospitalera and as a pilgrim about this question:

How much should be my donativo?

The easy answer is: As much as you can afford! But things are a bit more layered, so please allow me to digress ;-)

Donativo albergues rely on many things:

• Somebody donated the building or sold it for a nominal price or somebody bought it from their own money without any intention ever to make a profit of it.
• Volunteers renovated it and staff it and they all not only pay their own travel to the place, they very often even pay for their own food during their stay!
• Nothing what is on offer has a price tag on it - it is priceless, the smiles, the welcome, the food, the hot water, the good-bye hug in the morning - none of it can be bought.

Donativo albergues don't make a distinction between those who have and those who haven't - everybody is treated the same - the same food, the same welcome, the same hot shower (ok, depending on time of the day ;-)

So, how much should you give - like the Galicians say "It depends!"

- The least what you should give is a smile, a hug and a Thank You
- There is no upper limit to how much you can leave in the Donativo box.

If you are a pilgrim on an average budget, here some pointers:

What did you pay in the last commercial albergue that offered the same - Shower, Dinner, Breakfast etc?
Put the same amount into the Donativo box!

Follow the 5er rule (taught to me by a pilgrim friend).
Leave five Euros (if you can afford it!) for each of the following: shower, bed, dinner, breakfast (or in the case of the last two, for food in the kitchen put there for you to prepare your own meals).

And if you are able to afford a night at the Parador at the end of your pilgrimage in Santiago, why not leave the same amount in a Donativo albergue that you really liked - always if you can afford it, obviously!

In short:

A smile should always be the minimum Donativo left and there is no upper limit of Euros you are allowed to put in the box!

Buen Camino!

 

[Tincatinker]

Logrono, 2012(?) in the paroquial Santiago El Real, Good Friday. The place was thronged with members of the confraternity changing into their robes and hoods, practising their drumming, staring at the walls and preparing themselves for the nights efforts and passions.
Meanwhile there is a bunch of Peregrinos: a Tinker; a Belgian with a broken-heart; a Swiss couple, quiet, shy (ever so in love); Bob, from Maine; two girls from somewhere in the Balkans that may or may not have existed at that particular time; and a "burned-out" banker, on sabbatical, well-dressed and wild-eyed.

In the midst of it all we cooked our supper from the benefits of last nights donativos. Some-one slipped out before the town got too hairy and brought back some wine. The Hospitalera, Elisabet, "found" some fresh bread amongst the tables laid for the confraternity. We sat to supper and went out into the town. " No curfew tonight, no point", Elisabet told us.

Most of us slept some, eventually, even though the parades seemed to keep going all night and the building was busy as people came and went. The town seemed to shut down at dawn and then, suddenly, there was an elderly couple toasting bread and making coffee and fetching fruit out of bags, and jamon, and jam. And as we were leaving i heard the "banker" say "this country is amazing, i'm gonna walk all the way to Santiago and all its gonna cost me is my flights". There was, near the stairs down to the exit door, the little discrete box marked "Donativo" but it could be easily ignored.

Elisabet smiled as he left.

 

[Stivandrer]

Saddened to hear that some will pay nothing at all, as it is treated mistakenly to be "free"..!!

If the Donativo idea is being threatened in this way in the future, so that the system cannot pay itself, I think the proposed mandatory 5 Euro or even 6-8 Euro would be nescessary.......and then a donativo on top !

Until them, I will pay tribute to places like Granon, the last place where I got the best Donative stay ever, with singing during cooking and the dishwashing afterwards...

 

[J F Gregory]

We always give what we would pay in other Albergues and many times more as we inquire about the operational cost. Also we give more for good food.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

IMHO, it's the "donativo" ideal, and the volunteer hospitaleros, who make the Camino unique. Without them, it would be just another cool hike.

 

[alexwalker]

We always give what we would pay in other Albergues and many times more as we inquire about the operational cost. Also we give more for good food.

Likewise, because I can.

 

[Antomuchacho]

Its too complex a question!! The fact that money is being questioned defeats the point of a donativo!! If you open up anything on a donativo basis you know what youre in for!! The owners decision!! But i think its a personal thing just like a vote ☺
Sometimes only the rich can afford compassion!

 

[Stivandrer]

IMHO, it's the "donativo" ideal, and the volunteer hospitaleros, who make the Camino unique. Without them, it would be just another cool hike.

True !

 

[SYates]

IMHO, it's the "donativo" ideal, and the volunteer hospitaleros, who make the Camino unique. Without them, it would be just another cool hike.

Couldn't agree more! BC SY

 

[SYates]

... Sometimes only the rich can afford compassion!

Sometimes - but a quote I read a few days ago also resonates with me:

"If you really need help, go to the poor, because they will truly understand your need for help"

I have found that true, and I am NOT saying that the rich will never will help you, just that the poor understand better where you are at the moment ...

Buen Camino de la Vida, SY

 

[Former member 49149]

As one who has served in a donativo albergue, never ever watching to see if or what pilgrims put in the box, I find it quite simple. If you have the money, give it. As a pilgrim, I give at least what I give in an albergue with a fixed charge, plus equivalent for meals. I think it was in Bercianos that I saw a notice to the effect that our donations would pay for the meals for tomorrow’s pilgrims, just as our meal was provided by the donations of yesterday’s pilgrims.

 

[SYates]

Amen @kirkie ! Best rule of hospitaleros ever (ok, among many other things) is to AVOID to CONNECT PILGRIMS and their DONATIVOS.

Buen Camino/Albergue, SY

 

[Antomuchacho]

I cant work the quote thing on this at all i.e particular lines from a paragraph!!
If you really need help, go to the poor because they will truly understand youre need for help!!
Is indeed true of course!!
However a lot of people who go on camino arent as wealthy as many others ( such is life ) and every penny is a prisoner
Maybe they have saved for that whole experience for months !! Whilst others are very wealthy and dont need too worry about finance which is good also! But as i say thats why donotivos are there!! Discretion

 

[Stroller]

I left what I paid at the last albergue plus 5 to 10 euro extra for those who can't or won't leave anything. The food for the next day comes from the donativo of today so if I ate well, I often did, it was because of previous pilgrims. Least I could do is repay the compliment.

 

[Antomuchacho]

If one is gracious !! Then they do it graciously!! No exceptations no reason and no Gratuity!! So too me its a pointless thread !! Only there too stroke the back of ones guilt and conscious which will never be answered

 

[Antomuchacho]

I.e if youre going too pay money into a donativo which we all do and some dont !! Its private

 

[SYates]

Wow - @Antomuchacho Why are you so angry? BC SY

 

[Pingüigrino]

I cant work the quote thing on this at all i.e particular lines from a paragraph!!
If you really need help, go to the poor because they will truly understand youre need for help!!
Is indeed true of course!!
However a lot of people who go on camino arent as wealthy as many others ( such is life ) and every penny is a prisoner
Maybe they have saved for that whole experience for months !! Whilst others are very wealthy and dont need too worry about finance which is good also! But as i say thats why donotivos are there!! Discretion

Sadly many pilgrims who are richer enougth to pay for a round of drinks are financially uncapable to let a single 5 euros bill in the box. When an hospi have in the albergue a group of people, eating, sleeping, having long hot showers, partyng in the bar all the evening long, taking sandwiches away from the breakfast table for a second breakfast, later finding less than ten euros in the box, it makes them (sometimes) want to leave, they feel sometimes like total idiots. (I know its hard to belive, but we hospitaleros are like you the humans )
Usually, we dont like to count the money in the morning, but sometimes the generous contribution of ONE pilgrim saved financially the day (To find a 100 euros bill in the box was a moving moment for me). Please be as generous as you can, but if honestlly you can´t afford a single coin do not worry, you pilgrims are wellcome anyway, we do not care to know who is the rich, who the generous, who the poor.
But remember donating money or not, lets the hospis know you aprreciate their work. A smile, a hug, a handshake is the only payment we need.
Be generous with your human warmth.

 

[Antomuchacho]

Ime fine thanks and hope you are too i didnt think i sounded anything but very reasonable☺ but if someone disagrees with something youve put uponline i suppose it can sound like that!

 

[SYates]

Ime fine thanks and hope you are too i didnt think i sounded anything but very reasonable☺ but if someone disagrees with something youve put uponline i suppose it can sound like that!

I am ;-) I think it was just two second language English speakers try to communicate ;-) BC SY

 

[Antomuchacho]

Convenido;-)

 

[Saint Mike II]

Hola SY - I have had this conversation with a number of pilgrims - both on the Camino and back here in Oz. The best answer I could determine is similar to your opening post - although not quite the E150/200 you suggested - was "what did you pay last night or two or three nights ago?" Is tonight's accommodation as good; better (?) if the answer is "yes" then put in what you paid last night. If the standard is a little lower - still put in your 5/7/10/12/15 Euros, that little extra might allow the operators to improve the facilities next year.

The other comment I received was "Donativo does not mean FREE"!! Cheers

 

[SYates]

[QUOTE="Saint Mike II, post: 682680, member: 20994""Donativo does not mean FREE"!! Cheers[/QUOTE]

Unless you don't have any money at all - then it is free with a big smile ;-) BC SY

 

[VNwalking]

Donativo does not mean free.
Donativo does not mean free.
Donativo does not mean free....
(et cetera...)

If you can, pay it forward, please. It's the only way the system can work.
Some people who can afford it seem to think they can continually take take take...and in the end that will never be sustainable.
If you can only give a little, give a little and that's plenty.
If you can give a lot but only give a little...well, no comment, other than to ask "Why the stinginess?"
It may just be a habit - and that's one habit that's worth breaking.

 

[Albertagirl]

In a couple of days I am going to be presenting the Camino Frances to other residents of my housing association. For an advertising poster, desired by the person arranging the meeting, I have sent a photo of myself at a candlelight dinner at San Anton Albergue. The title which I sent to accompany it was "No electricity, no hot water, perfect community." Yes, I gave as a donativo what I would have paid for a good meal and a night in in a private albergue. But the quality of the accommodation and food was not the point. The young women who were the hospitaleras greeted me as if I were a long-lost cousin, welcomed with affection and kindness. They shared with me and the other pilgrims what they prepared for dinner. I have learned more from them what heaven is like than from any text. For me, that is what a pilgrim donativo is like, and for. The hospitaleros at donativos give far more than I could ever return. My gratitude to all of you.

 

[Saint Mike II]

Thanks for the replies - yes I should have corrected. Donativo does not mean free but only as long as you have the Euros, otherwise it will be "without cost". But something else that was said - if you cannot afford your donation - how about offering to do some work - help with cleaning up etc; do the washing up in the kitchen. All small efforts aid the process. Cheers

 

[LTfit]

As one who has served in a donativo albergue, never ever watching to see if or what pilgrims put in the box, I find it quite simple. If you have the money, give it. As a pilgrim, I give at least what I give in an albergue with a fixed charge, plus equivalent for meals. I think it was in Bercianos that I saw a notice to the effect that our donations would pay for the meals for tomorrow’s pilgrims, just as our meal was provided by the donations of yesterday’s pilgrims.

That is exactly what I said when asked by a pilgrim in Grañón (donativo albergue where a communal dinner and breakfast is served) how much to give: "Thanks to those that gave yesterday, we are able to eat today".
If people further insist on a figure (in any donativo albergue I have been in), I usually say "as a guideline. whatever you pay in a non-donativo albergue".

We are seeing fewer and fewer traditional donativo albergues as it is getting almost impossible to survive. In Ponferrada and Nájera the average donation is €3...

 

[VNwalking]

We are seeing fewer and fewer traditional donativo albergues as it is getting almost impossible to survive. In Ponferrada and Nájera the average donation is €3...

Please excuse my outrage, but that's pathetic. We can and should do better than this.
Your balance and calm about this is admirable, @LTfit.

 

[Saint Mike II]

Please excuse my outrage, but that's pathetic. We can and should do better than this.
Your balance and calm about this is admirable, @LTfit.

Hola @VNwalking you are totally correct - Not only "can we do better"; "we must do better".

Although not to the extent I saw at one of the best "donativo" albergues, one of the hospitaleros was actually telling all the pilgrims what the minimum "going rate" was & he even turned away pilgrims who were not prepared to pay that amount (10 Euros). I had stayed at this place in 2015 and asked what I should donate the answer was E1 to E100 it was up to me. Whilst I was happy to pay the E10 and about 85% of other pilgrims also paid up but a few did not, as I understand it this group of hospitaleros have not been invited back. Sorry I will not confirm or deny where, so don't even think about asking.

 

[Pingüigrino]

Hola @VNwalking you are totally correct - Not only "can we do better"; "we must do better".

Although not to the extent I saw at one of the best "donativo" albergues, one of the hospitaleros was actually telling all the pilgrims what the minimum "going rate" was & he even turned away pilgrims who were not prepared to pay that amount (10 Euros). I had stayed at this place in 2015 and asked what I should donate the answer was E1 to E100 it was up to me. Whilst I was happy to pay the E10 and about 85% of other pilgrims also paid up but a few did not, as I understand it this group of hospitaleros have not been invited back. Sorry I will not confirm or deny where, so don't even think about asking.

I dont know where this albergue is, how the hospitalero was, and what organization they are members, but HOSVOL, the organization I am member, have two mandatory compliance rules. If the owners of the albergue (parish, municipal, Amigo´s fundations.etc) disagree it, we simply dont serve there.
Those rules are: 1º The albergue is open for EVERY people who say they are pilgrims. 2º Donation means donation. There are not minimun donativo. We accept from nothing to millions of euros, thank you. (We left one of the albergues with better infrastructure and services of the Frances for that reason. The owners, a Camino´s Amigos Asociation, asked for a "donation" of X euros)
Usually experienced hospitaleros, if they can, situates the donation box in a discrete place where the pilgrim dont be observed. In other places the hospitaleros have not the key of the box, the donations inside are managed by the owners of the albergue, whon run with the expenses.
That said, sometimes some hospitaleros may fall into temptation and ask for a minimun,especially if the finances are going badly, and the frustation of thinking that the pilgrims are not real pilgrims but "low cost tourists"
That behavior is seriously rejected by our organization, and may be cause for expulsion of the offender, in case of recidivism, or even the first infraction.
Buen Camino to you all , honest people.

 

[KJFSophie]

I have a very good friend who bought an alburgue and runs it alone. She charges only 8E to stay and could ask much more as her place is immaculately clean and has all of the ammenities. She offers dinner in the evening as donitivo, because she states she was not trained as a chef and cooks home meals from the heart ( I think she is a wonderful cook! )...her dinners are abundant with several courses and wine, homemade desserts, etc... and there are people who pay nothing! The supplies and groceries are not free for her, she must buy them. She spends hours cooking for 15-20 pilgrims by herself. She tells people when they arrive that the dinner is donitivo and asks for a headcount to know how many will attend. She states on average, there is 30E left in the donation box when 20 people have eaten. It costs her more to buy the food to make the meal. She barely makes ends meet paying for the alburgue and is crushed that she will now have to affix a price to the meal or discontinue it altogether. Her understanding of 'donativo' was for one to pay what they feel the meal was worth to them. She understands that some have very little and cannot offer much, but to pay nothing and eat like a king? If it was not offered, one would need to go out and pay to eat or buy food elsewhere, no? This poor woman struggled with this for the three years she has owned the place and is deeply saddened at the outcome of offering 'donativo'...she thought better of people and was disappointed. It's quite disheartening to see people taking advantage of a good heart.

 

[LTfit]

Hola @VNwalking you are totally correct - Not only "can we do better"; "we must do better".

Although not to the extent I saw at one of the best "donativo" albergues, one of the hospitaleros was actually telling all the pilgrims what the minimum "going rate" was & he even turned away pilgrims who were not prepared to pay that amount (10 Euros). I had stayed at this place in 2015 and asked what I should donate the answer was E1 to E100 it was up to me. Whilst I was happy to pay the E10 and about 85% of other pilgrims also paid up but a few did not, as I understand it this group of hospitaleros have not been invited back. Sorry I will not confirm or deny where, so don't even think about asking.

Good to hear that the group of hospitaleros were not invited back! The first "rule" one learns in hospitalero training is that the amount of donations is none of your business. The only reason I know about the average amount donated at several albergues is that I asked the amigos from the local Camino association.

 

[VNwalking]

It's quite disheartening to see people taking advantage of a good heart.

My experience from living this way is that it is necessary in today's consumerist culture to educate what donativo means. People tend to devalue what is not expensive - which is crazy. At the same time, there is no sense of paying it forward; people tend to think of it as a momentary transaction without future consequence.

So, naively thinking people will offer out of kindness is bound to fail when this transaction culture is where everyone is coming from. But if your friend (and albergues in general) were to post a nice sign saying something like "You are eating what others have given and your donation will feed tomorrow's pilgrims," this might make a dent in the general blindness about this topic.

And while I do understand the need not to coerce people to give and that how much one gives is no-one's business, I absolutely do not get the idea that the donativo box shouold be 'discretely placed.' Why not put it by the desk for all to see. With the sign....
Otherwise how in the world will people learn??

yes I should have corrected. Donativo does not mean free

Sorry, Mike if my post made it seem like I was directly replying to yours.
I wasn't, actually - it was more a response to what seems like an eternal need to let people know that donativo does not mean free.

 

[walkingstu]

Its too complex a question!! The fact that money is being questioned defeats the point of a donativo!! If you open up anything on a donativo basis you know what youre in for!! The owners decision!! But i think its a personal thing just like a vote ☺
Sometimes only the rich can afford compassion!

There isn't enough compassion in the world. And your right it is a "personal thing". My father raised 10 children. When my children came along I went to him for advice. This is what he told me.

" As a parent we have two things to teach our children, and we must have the job done by the time they are 7 or 8. We must teach them right from wrong, and we must teach them the ability to put themselves into someone else's shoes, to empathize.
When your done teaching them those two lessons, then you get out of their way."

Empathy is a personal thing.

Sometimes - but a quote I read a few days ago also resonates with me:

"If you really need help, go to the poor, because they will truly understand your need for help"

I have found that true, and I am NOT saying that the rich will never will help you, just that the poor understand better where you are at the moment ...

Buen Camino de la Vida, SY

 

[Trude]

Logrono, 2012(?) in the paroquial Santiago El Real, Good Friday. The place was thronged with members of the confraternity changing into their robes and hoods, practising their drumming, staring at the walls and preparing themselves for the nights efforts and passions.
Meanwhile there is a bunch of Peregrinos: a Tinker; a Belgian with a broken-heart; a Swiss couple, quiet, shy (ever so in love); Bob, from Maine; two girls from somewhere in the Balkans that may or may not have existed at that particular time; and a "burned-out" banker, on sabbatical, well-dressed and wild-eyed.

In the midst of it all we cooked our supper from the benefits of last nights donativos. Some-one slipped out before the town got too hairy and brought back some wine. The Hospitalera, Elisabet, "found" some fresh bread amongst the tables laid for the confraternity. We sat to supper and went out into the town. " No curfew tonight, no point", Elisabet told us.

Most of us slept some, eventually, even though the parades seemed to keep going all night and the building was busy as people came and went. The town seemed to shut down at dawn and then, suddenly, there was an elderly couple toasting bread and making coffee and fetching fruit out of bags, and jamon, and jam. And as we were leaving i heard the "banker" say "this country is amazing, i'm gonna walk all the way to Santiago and all its gonna cost me is my flights". There was, near the stairs down to the exit door, the little discrete box marked "Donativo" but it could be easily ignored.

Elisabet smiled as he left.

Unfortunately many people believe Donativo is free especially the younger ones with limited budgets, I always give what the private Albergues are charging in the town. I believe donativo should be changed to 5 euro minimum. If someone genuinely has no money
That is different but a banker .......please

 

[Former member 49149]

I dont know where this albergue is, how the hospitalero was, and what organization they are members, but HOSVOL, the organization I am member, have two mandatory compliance rules. If the owners of the albergue disagree it, we simply dont serve there.
Those rules are: 1º The albergue is open for EVERY people who say they are pilgrims. 2º Donation means donation. There are not minimun donativo. We accept from nothing to millions of euros, thank you. ( We left one of the albergues with better infrastructure and services of the Frances for that reason. The owners asked for a "donation" of X euros)
Usually experienced hospitaleros, if they can, situates the donation box in a discrete place where the pilgrim dont be observed. In other places the hospitaleros have not the key of the box, the donations inside are managed by the owners of the albergue, whon run with the expenses.
That said, sometimes some hospitaleros may fall into temptation and ask for a minimun,especially if the finances are going badly, and the frustation of thinking that the pilgrims are not real pilgrims but "low cost tourists"
That behavior is seriously rejected by our organization, and may be cause for expulsion of the offender, in case of recidivism, or even the first infraction.
Buen Camino to you all , honest people.

In my own case, yes, the ‘owners’ look after the donativo box. I have never been told what was in the box. The hospitalera/os are given money to go buy the food and supplies, and then we get on with it. No checking, just receipts for supplies. The original question: how much is enough? - we are no longer in the age of pilgrims walking under pain of mortal sin or whatever: pilgrims today choose to walk. If a pilgrim can afford to get there, to any point on the camino, said pilgrim ought to have what it takes to pay her or his way. Enough times it has been said already: albergues do not run on fresh air. There may be constraints we innocents know nothing of, as for example: if by charging, there would be costs due as it would now be classed as a business - then better to leave it as donativo. That being said, donativo means it is up to you. Put yourself in the shoes of the individual or organisation running the albergue, then pay what you think is fair, or generous. Don’t tell me though that donativo is free. It means: it is up to you. Now my rant is over. Have I brought coals on my head? I do not mind about that. The camino is not about a cheap holiday. If it becomes that, let it go. That would be so awful. My rant is not over. i have seen downright users. I have seen people who pretend they do not have money to pay. That isn’t my problem as hospitalera. The same welcome is offered in terms of services: shower, bed, washing machine, meals, listening ear if wanted... so, calm down, kirkie: how much is enough? That is up to you, pilgrim. That is up to me, pilgrim.

 

[LTfit]

I just read through an old thread from 2014 https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/donativo-a-dead-idea.25161/ on this subject. Maybe we should revisit it as there are some valid points made. It was also interesting to read my own contribution to the thread. My opinion has not changed since 2014 although I now do understand better when an albergue decides to charge in order to survive.

"I have been following this thread with great interest as it is a topic that I hold close to my heart. I feel quite strong about maintaining the traditional, donativo albergues as the parrochial albergues in Viana, Grañón and Tosantos amongst others. Maybe that is why I have volunteered my time on two occasions and hope to do so again in the future. My fellow hospitalero Tom (#24) put it quite well. It is not my concern- or even business - how much is given. I actually do not even want to know because I find it irrelevant. I do my 'job' because I chose to do it and this has nothing to do with money. So How do we keep the donativo idea alive? Help by volunteering. Give back what you can and educate others. I don't have the answer but am not ready to give up on this tradition- not yet. But then again I do not invite pilgrims into my home as Reb nor depend on the income to stay open.

I have had this discussion on many occasions, also with fellow hospitaleros and most recently this past February on the Vía de la Plata. I had a few long talks with Antonio Mateo Puente of the albergue in Zafra who started the albergue as a donativo but just couldn't cover his fixed costs. He now asks 12 euros including breakfast which is the standard fee for private albergues along the Vía de la Plata. He was apologetic about this, almost embarrassed. I also talked with the young priest that runs the parrochial albergue in Monesterio. I mentioned to him my surprise that he was charging 10 euros and he shared with me the struggles that they were having covering costs, especially since the opening of a new municipal albergue and the fact that the ayuntamiento does not allow them to put up signs although the municipal can. They also do not receive money from the church. Renovations were made possible through parish donations. He did confess to me that although they charge, they will allow pilgrims without resources to stay with them when asked.

Thanks for keeping the subject alive."

 

[VNwalking]

There isn't enough compassion in the world. And your right it is a "personal thing". My father raised 10 children. When my children came along I went to him for advice. This is what he told me.

" As a parent we have two things to teach our children, and we must have the job done by the time they are 7 or 8. We must teach them right from wrong, and we must teach them the ability to put themselves into someone else's shoes, to empathize.
When your done teaching them those two lessons, then you get out of their way."

Empathy is a personal thing.

Beautiful...thank you @walkingstu

I believe donativo should be changed to 5 euro minimum.

But then it's no longer donativo, right, Trude? I get your drift, but I think it far better to educate the freeloaders - especially the types like the banker. That kind of entitlement is hard to fathom.

 

[notion900]

Personally I find donativo a bit awkward and guilt inducing. I would rather there were fixed price basic albergues, run by volunteers, if people want to volunteer. I also think a person trying to make their living off donativo is just too hard, and unfair on them. I believe in the minimum wage. I have done a massive amount of volunteering in my life (not on the caminos though), and it can be the cause of burnout and resentment in the end. Fair pay seems better to me.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

"fair play?" No one is deceiving anyone, or acting in bad faith. Donativo is a big challenge to people immersed in our Consumer economy. Their world is based on transactions -- I give you this, you give me that in exchange. The donativo throws a wrench into that, makes the consumer stop and consider what is being offered to him: food, rest, cleanliness, a welcome. What is that worth? He gets to put his own price-tag on it, and that brings on all kinds of baggage: guilt, anger, peevishness at not being told clearly what price is expected! The albergue is not cooperating!
What makes it most bizarre is that one of the options is taking it all for free. Something for nothing! How foolish! How crazy! How un-Capitalist! How... Christ-like!
People without any money can sleep in a clean bed. They respond, usually, with gratitude. People with plenty of money support the place with the usual amount, or maybe a little extra bonus for the goodwill. Others will view it as a nice discount night, and leave as little as they can justify to themselves. (they tell themselves the albergue has a subsidy or foundation support). Then there are the few who have plenty and leave nothing, and sneer at the fools giving away something for nothing. They are on the Way for a reason. Maybe this is the issue they are here to face -- they don't own their money. Their money owns them, and it's turning them sour.

 

[SYates]

Millions of likes Reb! BC SY

 

[notion900]

"fair play?"

I said fair PAY

 

[VNwalking]

Personally I find donativo a bit awkward and guilt inducing.

Could this not just be a lack of familiarity with it? Our culture does not generally work that way and we don't know 'the rules.' But the thing is you can't do generosity wrong. Reflect on what you can afford and just give what you can - with kind wishes for the people who have supported your stay, and those pilgrims who will come after you.
Money is just a substitute for energy and there is much more joy in letting it flow than in accumulating it.

Edit...Seeing Reb's post. Yes, it was "Fair pay," but what she said was wonderful.

 

[notion900]

It's not that, I have been to plenty of donativo albergues. It's that I usually know what I want to give (ie what I would pay in a similar facility). But I also know that other people will be stingy, which will threaten the albergue, so maybe I should give more, and the volunteers are so nice... but then again the money doesn't go to them. And ultimately I think people should be paid for their efforts, it's better to create a proper job in a country that doesn't have enough of them, than constantly depend on goodwill.

 

[VNwalking]

t's not that, I have been to plenty of donativo albergues.

I was meaning unfamiliarity with the giving itself - how much is enough, etc. - the kind of thoughts you describe in your post so well. Sorry, I could have been clearer.

I think people should be paid for their efforts, it's better to create a proper job in a country that doesn't have enough of them, then constantly depend on goodwill.

@notion900 we agree entirely on the goodness of dogs, but I respectfully part company with you here.
Giving of oneself without expecting anything in return is a powerful engine of genuine love. And that is what the Camino is ultimately about.

 

[Former member 49149]

I offered to be a hospitalera not to be paid for my efforts, but to give something back. No question of payment. The volunteer system, in the Camino world, knows nothing of fair pay! That at least is out of time... ask the people who organise all the volunteers... payment is not a part of the deal.

 

[notion900]

There could still be volunteer run albergues, just at a fixed price which covers their costs.

 

[Albertagirl]

When I started my first camino in the fall of 2015 I did not understand at all the concept of donativo. All I knew, from the posts on this forum, was that I should, and would, give the same as in the private albergues. And that the donativos were very special places. Granon taught me what a donativo albergue is. At dinner, I was educated by three pilgrims who definitely needed to be there and could not afford to pay the rate at private places. One young woman told me that she was from Australia and had just finished her degree. The Australian dollar had gone down in value relative to the euro since she bought her air ticket, and the temporary job that she took to pay her camino expenses had not brought in what she needed. But she had gone anyway and was using the donativos to stretch her modest savings so she could finish the walk. Another woman said she had walked a very long day that day with severely blistered feet, because she could not afford to stay anywhere else. A young man said that he had been invalided out of the American military after serving in Afghanistan, and was surviving on a small pension. Nonetheless, he had decided in spite of limited funds to go on pilgrimage, and was using the donativos to stretch his resources. In the face of the faith and determination of these pilgrims, who was I to judge their decision to walk the camino or to determine what they should be paying? Later, on my camino, I sometimes found myself regretting my decision to always pay at donativos what I would at private albergues and wanted to stretch my funds by spending a night at a five euro municipal albergue and buying a better meal, instead of another donativo with basic facilities and very simple food. Fortunately, I knew that I needed what the donativos (and parochial) albergues had to offer and I never missed one when available. I am a little uncomfortable with the emphasis on this forum of paying one's share in donativos. Are there prospective pilgrims reading the forum who might feel that they should not go on camino with limited finances? I am inclined to think that I need them more than they need me.

 

[VNwalking]

There could still be volunteer run albergues, just at a fixed price which covers their costs.

Then they are not volunteers. Why insert money into something that is a heartfelt flow of kindness?

 

[Felipe]

I frankly think that unless there is somebody (a parish, an association, a city council) that pay the gaping difference between donativos and costs, the donativo albergues are (sadly) a thing of the romantic past of the Camino.
I walked the Piedmont way, and many places listed in guides as "donativo" (including a monastery) have currently a tariff. No amount of personal sacrifices, exhortations or not so subtle tricks (I remember an albergue where you must deposit your "donativo" in a box placed in the hospitalero desk, under his watchful eyes) will cover the difference. Enthusiasm is good and praiseworthy, but economic realities tend to bite very hard.

 

[J Willhaus]

The gift of serving is really the best gift I have ever received. That being said, it is still true that the infrastructure of the facility must be maintained and food must be purchased and the utilities must be paid. We pray that our guests will be able to help us keep the doors open and the lights on for the next group of pilgrims.

At our hospitalero training we were taught not to discuss donations with pilgrims. This is a timely thread as Phil and I will be serving at Granon over Christmas and New Year's.
This week in Santiago, where Phil is currently attending school to learn Spanish, he said he had a similar discussion with someone about the economics of the donativo model. I for one, hope it does not go away.

 

[peregrina2000]

As Lee suggested, I went back to that old thread, because I was sure I would have written something. And my thoughts were pretty much the same as @notion900’s sentiments, so I surely get where she is coming from. Here’s what I wrote several years ago:

As someone who has been born and bred in a hard driving capitalist economy, I have always found the "donativo" albergues to be frustrating. I would hope that what I pay is enough to keep the albergue in business and making a decent profit. But I can't figure out what that amount is, and I rely on the owners to make that calculation. But if they are donativo, they don't do that for me, so I am left to have to guess what that might be. And, as a good capitalist, I don't like paying for someone else who can perfectly well pay his/her own way but is just too cheap to do it.

I have walked with many who don't give (or who give very little) in donativo albergues --some of them are freeloaders, but if they are told how much to give, they will give it.

I very much like having the freedom to give to my favorite charities, but I very much don't like having to try to figure out how much I should give when I sleep in a bed on the Camino.

I have to admit that I am still a bit conflicted, but thanks to interaction with people like Reb,VN,and LT, I have realized that my frustration is more about my own inability to let go of the rules that I live with on a daily basis — quid pro quo, pay your own way. When I put a big amount in the donativo box at Fuenterroble this year (despite having had a terrifying night there), I understood that giving in thanks for what you have received, irrespective of whether others do the same (even those freeloaders who can afford it), and knowing that no one but you will ever know that you were generous, provides gifts to me that are so much more meaningful than paying my own way or than being recognized as a charitable donor on a list at the end of the year. (That, btw, is why I had so many issues with the American flag that used to fly in the Fuenterroble courtyard in recognition of the APOC gift, but that is another story.... The hospitalera this year told me that the flag had been destroyed in a big storm one night and no one has thought to replace it. But I digress...).

In a world where every little hiccup we utter gets posted on social media, having this one private transaction between yourself and your spirit (maybe some would say conscience) is challenging yet so rewarding in the end.

 

[fransw]

Personally I find donativo a bit awkward and guilt inducing. I would rather there were fixed price basic albergues, run by volunteers, if people want to volunteer. I also think a person trying to make their living off donativo is just too hard, and unfair on them. I believe in the minimum wage. I have done a massive amount of volunteering in my life (not on the caminos though), and it can be the cause of burnout and resentment in the end. Fair pay seems better to me.

Couldn't agree more!

 

[good_old_shoes]

Difficult topic.

The donativo albergues and the fantastic hospitaleros are, in my opinion, one of the reasons why, despite commercialisation, there‘s still some of the spirit of the pilgrimage left. Everyone is welcome to walk. The wealthy, the poor, the old, the young… if you need to do it, you most likely can, somehow. That‘s one reason why I love the Camino, it's open to (almost) everyone. Since it is a pilgrimage, a spiritual journey by nature, of course there‘s a huge number of people who are searching for something, trying to solve a problem, changing important things in their life, and so on. Which means that, of course, there will be some who can give only little or nothing, because those are usually not exactly situations where you‘re financially well off.

Poverty is often heavily stigmatized. For that reason, many people hide it well. The person who looks like a banker to you might have lost his job recently and might be in heavy debt, struggling to get by, just keeping up the facade. To live like that can be a heavy burden. If you're in that position, even to know that there are places where everybody is welcome, simply as a human being, regardless of how much is in your bank account or how much you're able to put in the donativo box, it makes you feel valued as a person, a worthy part of society. That‘s priceless.

It seems to me that the more common attitude nowadays is leaning towards If you can‘t afford to spend x amount of money per day, stay at home. But honestly, you never know the situation of a person, why maybe they need to walk right now. It‘s scary to travel with little money and a maybe not so tightly woven safety net, so I assume most people who decide to do it anyway have a very good reason to do so.

Therefore, a huge thank you to everyone who helps keeping the Camino alive and open to everyone by paying it forward for those who can't, and of course to those volunteering as hospitaleros. Maybe there's a way to educate pilgrims in a better way about the nature of donativos, so that this important part of the Camino won't be lost in the future.

 

[LTfit]

This is a timely thread as Phil and I will be serving at Granon over Christmas and New Year's.

Now that is a gift! Have a wonderful time in Grañón. I'll be volunteering in Ponferrada the first two weeks of January

 

[Bumpa]

Then they are not volunteers. Why insert money into something that is a heartfelt flow of kindness?

The basic fact here, that we can move around with different opinions, is that there must be some insertion of money into the system. The money does not go to the volunteers directly but to the establishment. Therefore we are not affecting the "flow of kindness" from people who are giving time and effort from their heart. General upkeep of the building, heat, heating of water, even before we consider the cost of buying food if a meal is offered, will be a prevalent cost. That money must come from somewhere. Surely the flow of kindness from the volunteers, which we should all be manifestly grateful for, will not likely be affected by money placed in a box. However the people required to foot the bill for the prevalent costs will be affected and we should all be mindful that these establishments will not be there if the costs of running them become prohibitive. Free space to some must be considered within the confines of keeping the place open to provide that service.

I do not understand how some can receive gracious service, be able to afford it, but not feel that they need to contribute.

 

[Alan Pearce]

When I walked my first camino in 2008 I was puzzled by how much I should give at a donativo albergue. I asked Marc the lovely French hospitalero at the donativo albergue in Barcianos del Real Camino what amount was suitable. When acting as a hospitalero since, and asked that same question, I have always quoted his reply "If you are poor you will give us what you can afford. If you are rich, you will give us lots and lots of money!"

 

[mlhhome]

The Camino continues to teach. I am a better pilgrim/citizen because the lessons I learned while walking the Camino.
In 2012, I walked several segments with an international ecliptic family that include a 35 year old German Franciscan priest (who rediscerning his vocation) and who had very little money. He could only stay at donativo alburgues and scrimped for every meal. He gave what he could afford and we donated generously because of him and for next pilgrim in a similar circumstance. We didn’t do for recognition, but for joy of being to help (indirectly) a member of our family.

It Is a joy to help someone else

 

[Saint Mike II]

As Lee suggested, I went back to that old thread, because I was sure I would have written something. And my thoughts were pretty much the same as @notion900’s sentiments, so I surely get where she is coming from. Here’s what I wrote several years ago:

As someone who has been born and bred in a hard driving capitalist economy, I have always found the "donativo" albergues to be frustrating. I would hope that what I pay is enough to keep the albergue in business and making a decent profit. But I can't figure out what that amount is, and I rely on the owners to make that calculation. But if they are donativo, they don't do that for me, so I am left to have to guess what that might be. And, as a good capitalist, I don't like paying for someone else who can perfectly well pay his/her own way but is just too cheap to do it.

I have walked with many who don't give (or who give very little) in donativo albergues --some of them are freeloaders, but if they are told how much to give, they will give it.

I very much like having the freedom to give to my favorite charities, but I very much don't like having to try to figure out how much I should give when I sleep in a bed on the Camino.

I have to admit that I am still a bit conflicted, but thanks to interaction with people like Reb,VN,and LT, I have realized that my frustration is more about my own inability to let go of the rules that I live with on a daily basis — quid pro quo, pay your own way. When I put a big amount in the donativo box at Fuenterroble this year (despite having had a terrifying night there), I understood that giving in thanks for what you have received, irrespective of whether others do the same (even those freeloaders who can afford it), and knowing that no one but you will ever know that you were generous, provides gifts to me that are so much more meaningful than paying my own way or than being recognized as a charitable donor on a list at the end of the year. (That, btw, is why I had so many issues with the American flag that used to fly in the Fuenterroble courtyard in recognition of the APOC gift, but that is another story.... The hospitalera this year told me that the flag had been destroyed in a big storm one night and no one has thought to replace it. But I digress...).

In a world where every little hiccup we utter gets posted on social media, having this one private transaction between yourself and your spirit (maybe some would say conscience) is challenging yet so rewarding in the end.

Dear Laurie - I too had to go back to original post to see what (if anything) I had said. My literary elequence is not match for yours so thank you for expressing it so clearly and "spot on". Cheers (and to paraphrase SY - big hugs!)

 

[VNwalking]

In a world where every little hiccup we utter gets posted on social media, having this one private transaction between yourself and your spirit (maybe some would say conscience) is challenging yet so rewarding in the end.

Laurie, thank you for this lovely post -this is just the tail-end of it. You have exactly described my process around this whole topic - over decades. It is the deepening exploration of hanging on and letting go that is so rewarding.

The Camino continues to teach. I am a better pilgrim/citizen because the lessons I learned while walking the Camino.

It Is a joy to help someone else

This is sweetness of heart - the opposite of what Reb was talking about when she said 'sour:'

Then there are the few who have plenty and leave nothing, and sneer at the fools giving away something for nothing. They are on the Way for a reason. Maybe this is the issue they are here to face -- they don't own their money. Their money owns them, and it's turning them sour.

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

There could still be volunteer run albergues, just at a fixed price which covers their costs.

For me it's simple, Voluntering is something you want to do.
A paid job is something you need to do .

Wish you all well , Peter .

 

[LTfit]

"As someone who has been born and bred in a hard driving capitalist economy, I have always found the "donativo" albergues to be frustrating. I would hope that what I pay is enough to keep the albergue in business and making a decent profit. But I can't figure out what that amount is, and I rely on the owners to make that calculation. But if they are donativo, they don't do that for me, so I am left to have to guess what that might be. And, as a good capitalist, I don't like paying for someone else who can perfectly well pay his/her own way but is just too cheap to do it."

I have to admit that I am still a bit conflicted, but thanks to interaction with people like Reb,VN,and LT, I have realized that my frustration is more about my own inability to let go of the rules that I live with on a daily basis — quid pro quo, pay your own way.

There are several important points that Laurie has brought up in her post. @VNwalking touched on one. I would like refer to another and commend Laurie on her honesty.

In several responses throughout the thread I read "awkward", "frustrating" and "annoying" when referring to the donativo concept. I believe Laurie hit the nail on the head when she says "it's more about my inability to let go of the rules that I live with on a daily basis..."

The donativo concept is messy, it's almost inconceivable in the context of our normal daily lives. Most of us are dictated (or let ourselves be dictated) by what Laurie calls "a hard driven capitalist economy". Now we are presented with a dilemma - you and only you decide how much to leave. Accept that awkwardness. Investigate the frustration that may arise. That too is the Camino

 

[VNwalking]

This thread - it is a gold mine of wisdom. Thank you, everyone.
Lee...........just YES. Wonderful post.

Now we are presented with a dilemma - you and only you decide how much to leave. Accept that awkwardness. Investigate the frustration that may arise. That too is the Camino

Totally. And...

Our culture does not generally work that way and we don't know 'the rules.' But the thing is you can't do generosity wrong.

 

[Robo]

I thought I had the Donativo concept all worked out on my head.
Now I'm really conflicted
Guess I just have to try it..............

Though part of me says, I can afford to stay in private places, I should leave the Donativo beds for those who need them.

But then on the other hand, my contribution will help to subsidise others...........
Maybe I should just drop in a donation as I pass?

Part of me is thinking this is all too hard.
Just give me a 'guide' can't you

Here's a thought, that might work in our consumer society.
In my businesses, part of our income always goes to charity.
And we give gratitude certificates to our customers. It's 'micro' giving.
Even if we run a free seminar, we give a charity donation on behalf of each of our guests, as a thank you for giving up their time. It might be water for 10 people in a drought stricken region, or 5 meals for Orphans in India. It mounts up!

Every transaction in time or money also has a small charity component.

Could this work for a Donativo Albergue? No idea what the amounts should be, but it will give you the concept.

How We use Your Donations/Contribution

0. We are so pleased to be able to help you undertake your Pilgrimage and totally understand that this Donativo Albergue is helping you to do that. You are MOST Welcome.

5. We appreciate your contribution that will help pay for your meals. and we are most grateful.

10. Your contribution has covered all your accommodation and meals. Thank you so much.

15. Your contribution has not only covered your bed and meals, but you have fed a Pilgrim who will stay here tomorrow. We thank you on their behalf.

20. Your contribution has not only covered your bed and meals, but you have fed TWO Pilgrims who will stay here tomorrow. We thank you on their behalf.

25. Your contribution has not only covered your bed and meals, but you have fed THREE Pilgrims who will stay here tomorrow. We thank you on their behalf.

etc etc

Many of those who can afford it, I suspect will willingly give more, as they can see what support it will provide.
It doesn't have to be specific, but it makes the point quite clearly that you are helping the next Pilgrim with a bed, a meal or whatever.

And regrading where the box is kept. I wouldn't 'hide' it, but not make it too obvious either. No one should be able to see what Pilgrims are putting into it.

Just a thought..........

 

[notion900]

you can't do generosity wrong

Oh you can...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...sm-funds-exploitative-orphanage-schemes-says/

 

[notion900]

For me it's simple, Voluntering is something you want to do. A paid job is something you need to do .

For the older generation maybe. Younger people are now forced to volunteer to build their CV's. I've done months of it.

 

[LTfit]

I thought I had the Donativo concept all worked out on my head.
Now I'm really conflicted
Guess I just have to try it..............

Though part of me says, I can afford to stay in private places, I should leave the Donativo beds for those who need them.

But then on the other hand, my contribution will help to subsidise others...........
Maybe I should just drop in a donation as I pass?

Part of me is thinking this is all too hard.
Just give me a 'guide' can't you

Here's a thought, that might work in our consumer society.
In my businesses, part of our income always goes to charity.
And we give gratitude certificates to our customers. It's 'micro' giving.
Even if we run a free seminar, we give a charity donation on behalf of each of our guests, as a thank you for giving up their time. It might be water for 10 people in a drought stricken region, or 5 meals for Orphans in India. It mounts up!

Every transaction in time or money also has a small charity component.

Could this work for a Donativo Albergue? No idea what the amounts should be, but it will give you the concept.

How We use Your Donations/Contribution

0. We are so pleased to be able to help you undertake your Pilgrimage and totally understand that this Donativo Albergue is helping you to do that. You are MOST Welcome.

5. We appreciate your contribution that will help pay for your meals. and we are most grateful.

10. Your contribution has covered all your accommodation and meals. Thank you so much.

15. Your contribution has not only covered your bed and meals, but you have fed a Pilgrim who will stay here tomorrow. We thank you on their behalf.

20. Your contribution has not only covered your bed and meals, but you have fed TWO Pilgrims who will stay here tomorrow. We thank you on their behalf.

25. Your contribution has not only covered your bed and meals, but you have fed THREE Pilgrims who will stay here tomorrow. We thank you on their behalf.

etc etc

Many of those who can afford it, I suspect will willingly give more, as they can see what support it will provide.
It doesn't have to be specific, but it makes the point quite clearly that you are helping the next Pilgrim with a bed, a meal or whatever.

And regrading where the box is kept. I wouldn't 'hide' it, but not make it too obvious either. No one should be able to see what Pilgrims are putting into it.

Just a thought..........

Thank you @Robo for taking the time to think this through and to investigate how you can contribute to donativo albergues. You may always donate, even if you choose to stay somewhere else! In addition there are many worthly projects along the Camino, just look at Reb's Peaceable Projects: www.peaceableprojects.org
And although it is wonderful that part of your business income is donated to charity, I differ with regards to your How We use Your Donations/Contribution fee model. It does take the guess work, the awkwardness, out of the equation but you are putting a price tag on the services provided. I understand your rationale, but believe that we should leave it up to the individual. Sometimes people leave 50 euros, just because they want to and those that leave a few cents will always be around, sign or no sign.

 

[Robo]

Fair enough. I thinks it’s sad though that Donativo Albergues may go under because people don’t appreciate how it all works. Which seems to be the theme of some of these posts.

I only mentioned what we do in our business as an example of how micro ‘paying it forward’ could be applied and keep everyone happy. My attempt was obviously a bit clumsy....

 

[VNwalking]

Oh you can...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...sm-funds-exploitative-orphanage-schemes-says/

Of course. Point taken. But we are talking about offering to an albergue, not some bad orphanage schemes. 'Whataboutery' merely takes the discussion off course.

For the older generation maybe. Younger people are now forced to volunteer to build their CV's. I've done months of it.

I am sorry for you.
But that does not change the dynamic on the camino in albergues, where the people who serve really do want to be there - and not just old farts.

Seeing the world through a cynical lens of consumerist quid-pro-quo is a choice, @notion900.
But IMO it's a pretty limited vision of the world. And the camino at its best doesn't work that way. One of the things that most bothers people about how the Camino has changed over the years is how increasing commercialization creates an atmosphere of greed rather than kindness.
A little discomfort around how much to give is an excercise in the latter, which is only beneficial.

 

[J Willhaus]

There are many organizations which offer charitable and non-profit services around the world and many rely on donations and volunteers. Some are well-managed while others struggle to persist. I only know that I can do my own small part by giving of my time and money to those that hold meaning for me and many albergues on the Camino are meaningful to me. As one person, I will continue to do my part in support. It seems similar to the tipping concept we have here in the US. Some people are generous while others are not depending on the circumstances.

 

[notion900]

Seeing the world through a cynical lens of consumerist quid-pro-quo is a choice, @notion900.

Thanks for the commentary on the defects of my character, but you don't know me. Like I said, I prefer to help create sustainable jobs for local people who really need them, rather than indulge the helping impulses of people of greater means, who helicopter in from abroad with great intentions. This is the theory of change being adopted by the great majority of reputable international development agencies nowadays.

 

[VNwalking]

Thanks for the commentary on the defects of my character

That is your inference, but not what I said. Obviously we do not speak the same language.

I prefer to help create sustainable jobs for local people who really need them, rather than indulge the helping impulses of people of greater means, who helicopter in from abroad with great intentions.

Which is great - and I'm not being the least sarcastic.
But you are projecting your own ideas onto to people who volunteer to be hospitaleras - and there's dissonance becasue the Camino is a totally different universe from international NGOs. None of the hospis I know are "indulging their helping impulses" by "helicoptering in from abroad with great intentions."
They simply want to give back and give forward, often as a conscious spiritual practice.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Just a thought..........

And a good thought too. It led me to think that this more commercial idea is worth considering. Donotivo albergues could create a small sticker, pin, button or patch to be placed by the donation box with a sign saying to take one for a donation of some amont. Perhaps as a cheaper test of this is to have some small gold star stickers there. For 15 euros take one and place it next to your sello.

 

[peregrina2000]

I am sorry to see that this thread is getting contentious. Maybe notion and VN should continue in a PM. For those of us who struggle with the donativo concept, there has been a lot of food for thought here, and I hope we can get continue to share opinions. I think the discussion/disagreement about the philanthropy model is extremely interesting, and though it may not be directly on point, I do think that it leads to different perspectives on the role of donativos. I have to do a bit more thinking about this, because I am somewhat familiar with some of the changes in the philanthropy NGO world in terms of grantmaking. I never thought of donativos in this context, but will now do so!

 

[VNwalking]

I never thought of donativos in this context, but will now do so!

Thank you Laurie, for the settled post, and for the encouragement to think out of the box.
One thing that is clearer to me through this whole discussion is that donativos (and the voluntary support of them) can be perceived through different and mutually exclusive lenses - the spiritual and the economic. Hence the disconnect between notion900 and I, and perhaps a lot of the general confusion, too.
Because the spiritual and the economic are different 'languages' and different value systems.

Obviously albergues need to have enough income to survive in the world of money. That goes without saying. But for donativos how that happens and the energy behind them are often deeply spiritual - which is why they feel so special, and why trying to reduce that to a monetary quid pro quo seems so distasteful to some of us.

Generosity, kindness, and inclusiveness are what these albergues are about and you can't put a price on what is priceless. And at the same time...how to keep on keeping on? This is the conundrum.

 

[notion900]

the Camino is a totally different universe from international NGOs

The camino is a big input of money, environmental pressure (water, litter), and cultural imperialism to the economically deprived areas it traverses. It shares a lot of economic, and some spiritual, features with tourism, and one of the main aims of NGOs is to make tourism more sustainable and inclusive for local people. Creating jobs and capacity in depopulated and deprived areas, and preventing the big boys taking over and cashing in when an opportunity presents, is the essence of international development. It makes me a bit disappointed that many people on this forum seem to see the caminos in some kind of esoteric bubble, not as part of real life. Next time you pass a ruined or locked-up building on the camino, ask yourself where are those people? In an apartment in Madrid, most likely, because they couldn't afford to stay in their home.

 

[Albertagirl]

I would add one element to the different lenses through which one can view money: that is the emotional. Money equals our work, and therefore our lives. The less that we have, or the less that we have compared to our perceived needs, the more that this element bites. What can we buy with our money? What does security cost? Of course, there is no such thing, but it moves away from us like a mirage. Money can make us feel good. Yesterday, I made a posting on this forum that soon afterward made me feel terrible. Deleting is not always adequate. But, however I felt, I was committed to serving as a Salvation Army bell ringer for three hours, to get money for the needs of the poor in my city. I worked really hard to connect with the people who passed; many made donations or chatted with me. When I got home, I felt a little better, although I was in a lot of pain for staying on my feet that long with a back problem. This morning, I was given the chance to pay for a meal and buy some groceries for a poor young couple that I know, and to listen to them relate their lives and their challenges. By the time that I was done, there was more money on my credit card and I was feeling even better about myself. In a way, paying generously at a donativo auberge does the same for me. I have had the opportunity to give. Cheap at the price.

 

[Robo]

Maybe part of the issue here, is that as the various Caminos become more popular, particularly the CF, there are much larger numbers of Pilgrims who just don't realise what Donative implies.

If much larger volumes of people are now utilising Donativos, perhaps thinking that they are 'subsidised' in some way to provide free or very cheap accommodation, maybe therein lies the threat of the long term viability of the model? They will just go broke..........

 

[Robo]

I am sorry to see that this thread is getting contentious. Maybe notion and VN should continue in a PM. For those of us who struggle with the donativo concept, there has been a lot of food for thought here, and I hope we can get continue to share opinions. I think the discussion/disagreement about the philanthropy model is extremely interesting, and though it may not be directly on point, I do think that it leads to different perspectives on the role of donativos. I have to do a bit more thinking about this, because I am somewhat familiar with some of the changes in the philanthropy NGO world in terms of grantmaking. I never thought of donativos in this context, but will now do so!

Maybe a little contentious. But what I'm reading into this thread is a level of confusion.
It's certainly leaving me very uncertain and less likely to stay in a Donativo.

Basically because I would feel like a fraud staying there.
They are not supposed to be for people who can afford to stay elsewhere.
Or are they? Heck I have no idea really............
But it would certainly feel wrong to me if I am normally staying in private rooms at CRs.
Like I'm a freeloader. Wanting to drop in to see how the other half live.
But is it OK if I leave a generous donation?

I don't know? Now it's really starting to feel like hypocrisy for me to stay there.

It's a real Catch 22 isn't it?

If those who can afford to pay extra, don't stay there, then there is no subsidy for those who can't afford to pay at all, or who can only afford a little.

And all the while we debate this, a large number of people stay there probably thinking that it's all subsidised somehow anyway.

 

[SYates]

Educating people about what donativo is and isn't was why I started this thread @Robo

Let's not forget, for everyone that posts here on the forum, there are literally hundreds that read the forum and never write ;-)

And yes, many I spoke with in real life seriously believed that the albergues, donativo or not, are receiving some sort of support from the EU, the Church etc.

Buen Camino from Santiago, SY

 

[SYates]

... and less likely to stay in a Donativo.

Basically because I would feel like a fraud staying there.
They are not supposed to be for people who can afford to stay elsewhere.
Or are they? Heck I have no idea really............
...

And both
It is really easy - Donativo albergues are for EVERYONE and don't care if you have money or no money.

Everybody is equally welcome and everybody receives the same welcome.

The sign in the donation box of Granon reads:

"Leave what you can and take what you need"

And that is the essence of it in the end:

Take - A smile, a welcome, a hot shower, a meal, a prayer.
Leave - A smile, a hug, and, yes, some of your money if you can afford it.

It isn't rocket salad as a dear friend of mine would say.

And both, pilgrims and hospitaleros alike, always, always receive more than they give - another mystery of the Camino that is hard and easy to understand at the same time ;-)

Buen Camino de la Vida, SY

 

[Robo]

And both
It is really easy - Donativo albergues are for EVERYONE and don't care if you have money or no money.

Everybody is equally welcome and everybody receives the same welcome.

The sign in the donation box of Granon reads:

"Leave what you can and take what you need"

And that is the essence of it in the end:

Take - A smile, a welcome, a hot shower, a meal, a prayer.
Leave - A smile, a hug, and, yes, some of your money if you can afford it.

It isn't rocket salad as a dear friend of mine would say.

And both, pilgrims and hospitaleros alike, always, always receive more than they give - another mystery of the Camino that is hard and easy to understand at the same time ;-)

Buen Camino de la Vida, SY

Thanks for the balanced perspective as always @SYates .

 

[Former member 49149]

I don't know? Now it's really starting to feel like hypocrisy for me to stay there.
Hmm. Not the intention of the OP to 'make' anyone feel like a hypocrite, I should think. To the best of my knowledge, the parochial albergue I am associated with has a source of funding that is additional to the donations left by pilgrims. I am deducing that today's donativo albergues are there to offer a space for all pilgrims. If you can pay, pay. If you can't, then you can't, but that does not mean you cannot stay. You do not have to pass by a donativo - in fact, you might miss the best gift of the camino for you if you do that!- because you have money in your bank account. Robo, it's really that simple.

 

[Marc S.]

This thread is great and gives me a lot of food for thought. Lots of talk about money though. It struck me that the word 'trust' has not been mentioned in any post. For me the whole donativo concept has always been primarily about trust. Trusting that people will give what they can afford, and trusting that people feel a responsibility to help keeping a facility running, trusting that it makes people reflect on conventional economic rules. My ideal society would be primarily based on mutual trust, and I've always liked to think that a donativo albergue is a little experiment in how this could work. Or not, I'm not naive. Still, I like to trust in trust, untill the opposite is proven.

 

[SYates]

Thank you ever so much @Marc S. for mentioning "trust", a value many of us have indeed re-discovered on the Camino. BC SY

 

[Samarkand]

We might live this life with the money we have in the bank, but we leave this life with the love and help we are giving.

 

[Finisterre]

(That, btw, is why I had so many issues with the American flag that used to fly in the Fuenterroble courtyard in recognition of the APOC gift, but that is another story.... The hospitalera this year told me that the flag had been destroyed in a big storm one night and no one has thought to replace it. But I digress...).

Shhh don't mention the flag.

 

[alexwalker]

The sign in the donation box of Granon reads:

"Leave what you can and take what you need"

If I remember correctly, it is a chest of artifacts left by overpacked pilgrims (hair dryers etc.) in that albergue that has that sign, not the donativo box? A lovely place, BTW. True Camino spirit.

CU, amiga.

 

[VNwalking]

Now it's really starting to feel like hypocrisy for me to stay there.
It's a real Catch 22 isn't it?

Not to be concerned, Rob. All are welcome and no-one is unworthy to partake, even if they are rich as Croesus. That's the point. It's just that if you can, give forward so the folks after you can also eat and have a roof over their heads.

For me the whole donativo concept has always been primarily about trust.

We were talking around this Marc, but you went straight there. Thank you.

A lovely place, BTW. True Camino spirit.

It is all heart. Lucky pilgrims to be at Grañón over the hollidays with, @J Willhaus . Or ponferrada in January with @LTfit!

 

[Rebekah Scott]

As St. Francis said, "It is in giving that we receive."

 

[Deleted member 73526]

Basically because I would feel like a fraud staying there.

I sense that you're overthinking. The donativo albergues that I have stayed at are for all pilgrims. You're a pilgrim who belongs there as much as the next pilgrim. You will be welcomed and your donation will be gratefully received.

 

[james mcev]

This is a really interesting, and educational tread.

It is great to see people from different societies/cultures/viewpoints contributing.

I do think Donotivo’s are a struggle for most people, as has already been stated, because we are so used to being asked for a price for an item/service (before we receive it), deciding if it is worth it/can we afford it, and either agreeing, or walking away.

However, there is an advantage to this system, as a consumer, in that you are not asked to pay upfront, for an unknown service, in fact in most cases, you receive the service/food etc, before you pay!

So, it is up to the payee, to decide what the service was worth, and there, lies the issue.

We don’t know what things are worth, because we are so conditioned to being asked for money up front, so influenced by advertising, so used to being told what to do/buy/consume/value.

I live in a rural part of a Celtic country. Bartering is still a way to do unofficial business. If a neighbour helps me out, I may (most likely), be unable to pay them for their assistance, but I may be able to pay them in eggs, honey, returning the favour etc.

The way I think about it, is that it’s like Karma, but with a little twist. Instead of, you get back what you give (or seven fold what you give, in some beliefs), you give for what you get (or seven fold if you can afford it), and it will be paid on.

OK, maybe not to you, (no instant gratification with this system!), but you will get it back again (even if you just feel better for helping another unknown pilgrim).

At the end of the day, the Donotivo system is all about honesty. Since time immemorial there have been honest and dishonest people.

If the system cannot continue due to lack of donations, that is an indication of where the human race is going, conditioned by advertising, big business, government etc (me society, my life, my camino, ….........…….in my opinion!!)

 

[J Willhaus]

Robo,
I know from past posts that you had some reservations about staying in albergues, and I want to say that sometimes the worst night's sleep were at the best places I ever stayed. Not all donativos are like this, but the legendary Granon and Viana are among the places where you will sleep on thin gym mats on the floor. It is the ambiance provided by pilgrims and hospitaleros and the town folk that make these albergue s special.

Other donativos may have regular bunks and dorms. Only the pilgrim can decide what the experience has been worth at the end of the stay. I've seen people take one look at the accommodations and turn right around and leave and that is perfectly OK. It is the experience of community, preparing a meal together, singing together despite language differences, interacting with town folk, attending the community church services, eating together, washing dishes together, and then participating in a spiritual sharing time before trying to sleep on the floor with many snoring pilgrims that make this memorable. Some might find it dreadful, but for me as a pilgrim it felt like what the pilgrimage was really supposed to be about. Community and sharing. Enough suffering to make it seem like a pilgrimage, but the joy of life which kept me moving forward despite a sprained ankle and plantar fasciitis. I seem to need both in my life, suffering and joy, as a pilgrim and a hospitalero.
Only you can decide what it is worth.
Janet

 

[peregrina2000]

This is a really interesting, and educational tread.

It is great to see people from different societies/cultures/viewpoints contributing.

I do think Donotivo’s are a struggle for most people, as has already been stated, because we are so used to being asked for a price for an item/service (before we receive it), deciding if it is worth it/can we afford it, and either agreeing, or walking away.

However, there is an advantage to this system, as a consumer, in that you are not asked to pay upfront, for an unknown service, in fact in most cases, you receive the service/food etc, before you pay!

So, it is up to the payee, to decide what the service was worth, and there, lies the issue.

We don’t know what things are worth, because we are so conditioned to being asked for money up front, so influenced by advertising, so used to being told what to do/buy/consume/value.

I live in a rural part of a Celtic country. Bartering is still a way to do unofficial business. If a neighbour helps me out, I may (most likely), be unable to pay them for their assistance, but I may be able to pay them in eggs, honey, returning the favour etc.

The way I think about it, is that it’s like Karma, but with a little twist. Instead of, you get back what you give (or seven fold what you give, in some beliefs), you give for what you get (or seven fold if you can afford it), and it will be paid on.

OK, maybe not to you, (no instant gratification with this system!), but you will get it back again (even if you just feel better for helping another unknown pilgrim).

At the end of the day, the Donotivo system is all about honesty. Since time immemorial there have been honest and dishonest people.

If the system cannot continue due to lack of donations, that is an indication of where the human race is going, conditioned by advertising, big business, government etc (me society, my life, my camino, ….........…….in my opinion!!)

Thanks, James, your focus on honesty reminded me of an experience I had in Oviedo (one of the most beautiful cities in Spain and starting point of the Camino Primitivo). My son was going to be spending a year there at the university in their “international course for foreigners.” We needed 4 or 6 photos for different ID cards. We found a photo shop in a mall downtown, and when we came back to pick up the pictures, I had forgotten my wallet. Since my son needed to take the pictures to an orientation event about 30 minutes from then, I was kind of in a bind. The man gave me the pictures and told me to bring the money later. I was kind of shocked and said to him something along the lines of —but how do you know I will come back and pay you? His answer was — if you don’t, it’s a problem for you, not for me. I tried to use it as a teachable moment for my son, but it was lost on him. I brought it up many times, but no reaction. A few years ago my son, who is now a lawyer, told me he finally understood what that guy meant.

 

[james mcev]

@peregrina2000

What a nice story, especially as your son eventually "got it". Experience is a great teacher, It shows, that realistically, there is only one person that can fight with your conscience.

I had note left on my car about six months ago, someone had hit my car when pulling into a parking space, and left their phone number, an apology, and in invitation discuss and make reparation, (there was about 4 scratches on my paintwork and a small dent). I rang the number, The person was so nervous answering, and was so taken aback when I said, its fine, make a donation to charity for what you think it’s worth.

I don’t know if they did. But that is their business, not mine.

 

[JDI]

Just back from my first camino where I encountered the "donativo" and where my understanding of what it means went through three stages:

First, someone with deep pockets and an equal love of the camino threw their money into one as a joyful hobby -- where we were welcome to chip in with a few euros if we felt like it, but that would only be the "icing" on their "cake" which they could easily afford all on their own.

Second, someone whose pocket depth is unknown but with a deep love of the camino threw their money into one with the generous aim to help those pilgrims who can't afford 10 euros per night for 30 to 40 nights -- but with the expectation that those who can afford to pay the going rate will do so, leaving a small loss which the owners are prepared to cover themselves.

Third, someone with unknown pockets including an unknown ability to cover losses, took on this risk -- in the hope that the many pilgrims who can afford the going rate and a little bit more would donate it so as to cover all costs including a shortfall.

Here is my current thinking about donativos: that the owner has gone out on a limb for altruistic reasons to help those who are able to afford it least and who, as some thoughtful camino veterans have suggested, may also need it the most, and they tacitly ask the majority of pilgrims to help them help those who need help the most, which seems reasonable. Inevitably this will include subsidizing those who won't pay as well as those who can't pay. I would rather help the latter (and the owner who is out on the limb) than chastise the former. (Although I want to do both.)

As a rule of thumb in a donativo I will pay double the going rate -- once for myself and once for an unknown pilgrim who can't -- or won't -- pay it, so the owner can keep his donativo going for those who do need it.

10 euros for a bed in a clean, safe, welcoming environment seems pretty reasonable even when I double it to help out. That is cheaper than 30 euros for a pension and much cheaper than 50 euros for an hotel and much much cheaper than the 150 euros I paid at Holiday Inn in New York City.

Thanks, SYates, for bringing this up. I may not be the only new pilgrim who at first had to give a lot more thought to the principles behind a donativo than might be expected from the relatively small amount of money involved. Education helps.

 

[Robo]

Robo,
I know from past posts that you had some reservations about staying in albergues, and I want to say that sometimes the worst night's sleep were at the best places I ever stayed. Not all donativos are like this, but the legendary Granon and Viana are among the places where you will sleep on thin gym mats on the floor. It is the ambiance provided by pilgrims and hospitaleros and the town folk that make these albergue s special.

Hi Janet. You are right that I am not a great fan of Albergues, but I have little experience of them and wish to gain that next time.

No, my concern is not about the 'worth' of the lodgings.

My concern is purely that someone may have put everything on the line to provide this service, and because many Pilgrims don't understand how it works, they will basically not survive as a Donativo Albergue.

I get all the giving is better than receiving stuff, don't worry.

I just can't help that feel the whole thing survives on hope and a fair bit of luck and a lot of stress for the Albergue owner. Because as mentioned above, many people will regard Donativo as free or at least subsidised.

Hence my attempt at suggesting that indeed people pay what they like, but in addition it could be highlighted that e5 will buy another Pilgrim a meal, or e10 will buy the next Pilgrim a bed. In that way the owner is merely highlighting what a donation could provide for another person. But I get the objections to that. It's like a price list.

Alternatively..........perhaps a discrete sign that says something like.

This Albergue relies 100% on Pilgrim donations to operate.







.

 

[Albertagirl]

I am being amused by all the earnest attempts to calculate the value of a night in a donativo, and inspired by the spiritual and profound responses we are getting from those who serve in them. Yes, it may be worthwhile to consider whether you are taking the bed of someone who cannot afford to sleep anywhere else, if you are largely measuring your own worth in money. But when I read Robo's responses, and keeping in mind his many thoughtful contributions to this forum, I find myself thinking that it is not right that his sense of fairness should always deprive us of his presence at the donativo. You are worth much more to us than the money you might donate.

 

[SYates]

If I remember correctly, it is a chest of artifacts left by overpacked pilgrims (hair dryers etc.) in that albergue that has that sign, not the donativo box? A lovely place, BTW. True Camino spirit.

CU, amiga.

It is in both places, amigo. Buen Camino, SY

 

[LTfit]

It is in both places, amigo. Buen Camino, SY

And the donativo box is always open. We hospitaleras always leave a few bills in the box, just in case someone is in need.