The Camino - a holiday?

[Kanga]

I did not want to hijack @Rebekah Scott's thread on the future of Camino Hospitality, so hence this one.

In that thread, @Mark Lee said, among other things:

I kinda like being able to get a hot shower, clean (actual) bed/bunk, hot meal and cold beer everyday while walking the Camino. I have no desire to suffer. Live austerely. Been there, done that and bought the t-shirt. Not looking to do it on holiday. Yup folks. Walking the Camino is a holiday. You sure as hell ain't working. If you ain't working you are either retired or on holiday.

I know that the word "holiday" originates from Holy Day, but today that we divide activity into "work" or "holidays" purely on the basis of financial reward, simply underscores our basic consumerism. It is the philosophy of the market.

The camino is (or used to be) about another and different paradigm.

I think the market philosophy is way too simplistic, in any case. Why should activity be defined as "work" only if it is paid in coin? I doubt there is a single parent in the world who would agree with that. I enjoy some activities, for which I am paid, as much as some for which I am not paid. And vice versa. For me there is little relationship between the two.

Some societies and languages do not have a word that equates to "work". They simply have words that describe an activity.

I can assure you, that when I am on camino, I work very hard. My exhausted body tells me that every night.

It all seems terribly limiting to value everything in terms of money.

 

[SYates]

I agree and also want to add that the division between work/holidays is, historically, a rather new one. And even newer are our exactly defined work hours/days.
And to add another example: Hospitaleros Voluntarios are not paid for the work they do during their stay in an albergue but anybody that has done this will know that it is hard work - which they do during their holidays/vacations. Those bath rooms get not clean by themselves!

Buen Camino, SY

 

[Waka]

The point " if you're not working you're on holiday or retired" is very misleading, I've been retired for 11 years and since then have worked (unpaid) harder than I did when I worked.
I guess when you on the journey you can call it what you like, pilgrimage, holiday, hike, walk, bus ride with a few steps etc. it doesn't really matter as long as we all enjoy.

 

[wayfarer]

I can assure you, that when I am on camino, I work very hard. My exhausted body tells me that every night.

Thank you @Kanga , next time I am going for a hike I can now tell my wife I am working.

 

[Deleted member 36903]

@Mark Lee's distinction unsettled me because of the dichotomy it posed and because I usually agree with him, so Kanga's initiative to start this thread based on that post is very much appreciated, and SYates's points about history, as well as the experience of hospitaleros are well made.
Like Waka, I am retired in terms of not having a job with remuneration, but working as hard as ever (without pay) sometimes to rigid external deadlines as well as the non-negotiable seasonal demands for sowing and growing produce, but generally recognising that I have the luxury of setting my own timetable. Where I live is scenically beautiful with wildlife all around me. There is no need to do more than put on boots and stride out to enjoy walking here. So, in many ways, it must seem like a permanent holiday to those who live in cities and have to commute to work every day, as I did for decades in London. Whilst not doubting that for some people walking the Camino is a holiday, in the sense that it is time away from the routine of paid employment, rigid schedules and non-negotiable responsibilities, I prefer to think of it as offering a break. Here 'break' is used not to mean a rest, but rather a fracture - the deliberate breaking-off/away from normal ways of living, a physical, emotional and, if appropriate, spiritual separation from routines; one that does not make its goal the seeking out of pleasure, but rather embraces a deeper interior motivation, to let go, let things happen and learn to (un)learn again, to reflect, to meditate while moving purposefully in a foreign land among strangers. Going on 'holiday' is easy, you plan, you book and pay, and make a claim if the deal does not live up to the stated promise of the contract, walking the Camino involves accepting that well-made plans might have to be abandoned, expectations put aside and flexibility and openness embraced.
I have every sympathy with the newbies on this forum soliciting information and who might seem to be over-planning or overthinking to those who have made the journey more than once, I remember the fear that my stated intention of walking from SJPDP to SDC was vainglorious, but also that the powerful need to walk that pilgrimage route overcame those anxieties. To this day that experience resonates in and enriches my daily life. Of course this might also be claimed of some 'holidays' but not in my experience.

 

[Kanga]

I always find it uplifting to see the excited, happy faces of new pilgrims setting off from SJPDP. Bless them.

But I do find it sad that consumer choices are now a permanent part of the Camino Francés - there was such freedom experienced by not having those choices - no bag carrying, no booking, limited accommodation, and very limited alternate transport links.

 

[Playful Dread]

Ryanair still refuse to accept my barter of homegrown vegetables, herbs and spices in exchange for one of their flights to Portugal and I don't think that will change anytime soon, no matter how persistent I can be in trying to convince them of the amount of work and toil I've put into growing them. They seem to live under the notion that "money talks"! As much as I disagree with that, if I'm ever to get anywhere other than this godforsaken country then I'm either swimming off this island or I'm going to have to find the ways and means to "getz me sum of dat der money!" and do some 'talking' in a language that seems foreign to my natural instincts.

I too aspire to live a more simplistic way of life where life itself is not considered "work" & "play" Where there is no separation between the two and "work" and "play" are one and the same. A labour of love maybe! ONE Love!

 

[Deleted member 36903]

Well, Playful Dread, while Ryanair might have (theoretically, I assume, otherwise you have passed up an excellent photo opportunity and lucrative tabloid headline-maker) refused to exchange produce for an air ticket, but here in 'this godforsaken country' in Galloway at least, which is like Galicia in so many ways, trades are commonplace, and when living in money-centred London the LETS scheme there was healthy and well supported. I don't see the comments on this thread as trivialising the need that we have to work for money to be able to do things or live the way we aspire to, but Kanga is right about the essential but unpaid labour of rearing our children, and many on this forum are the care-givers for elderly relatives, and some have looked after loved ones through their last days of illness and considered it a privilege to have been able to do so. Good health is priceless, my sister-in-law is disabled with arthritis although younger than me, nevertheless she enjoyed being able to follow my journey on the CF by tracking down webcams along the way and using Google maps, to an extent, we were able to share the experience. Many here on this forum know only too well the damage caused by poverty in terms of self-esteem and diminished life-chances, and that if sustained over time it can kill body and spirit, but many also have experienced and passed forward the kindness of strangers who prioritised hospitality over remuneration. Long may it continue.

 

[VNwalking]

There's outer work, and inner work
Outer work (mostly, but not always) is about getting this stuff we call money to pay for someone else to grow out food, sew our clothes, build out house, and take care of us when we get sick. And then there are all the other many things we do to take care of ourselves and each other, and to live. It's all a lot of doing, whether we're paid or not.
Inner work on the other hand, thrives in stillness, silence, and not doing. No matter what the body's doing.

The Camino for me is mostly it's time for retreat and rejuvenation, for that inner work. I don't do it for fun, or to see sights--though both of these things definitely happen. But mostly I do it to open, to understand, to see clearly, to challenge myself so that I go over the edge of what is comfortable and learn from that. To touch what is essential and real, and to learn to let go of what isn't. To purify the heart of whatever gets in the way of kindness, clarity, and natural peace. To train in patience, kindness, contentment, and gratitude--no matter what might be happening.

Some people walk the Camino primarily to eat, drink, and have a nice walk. That's a holiday.
Some people walk the Camino to have a nice walk AND do their inner work. I'd have a very hard time calling that a holiday.
And some people walk the Camino mostly to do their inner work, and having a nice walk is nice if it happens. That's definitely not a holiday.
All three are good, but the intention differs.
And money has less to do with it than attitude.

 

[Deleted member 36903]

Yes, you have expressed it perfectly. Thank you VNwalking.

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

There's outer work, and inner work
Outer work (mostly, but not always) is about getting this stuff we call money to pay for someone else to grow out food, sew our clothes, build out house, and take care of us when we get sick. And then there are all the other many things we do to take care of ourselves and each other, and to live. It's all a lot of doing, whether we're paid or not.
Inner work on the other hand, thrives in stillness, silence, and not doing. No matter what the body's doing.

The Camino for me is mostly it's time for retreat and rejuvenation, for that inner work. I don't do it for fun, or to see sights--though both of these things definitely happen. But mostly I do it to open, to understand, to see clearly, to challenge myself so that I go over the edge of what is comfortable and learn from that. To touch what is essential and real, and to learn to let go of what isn't. To purify the heart of whatever gets in the way of kindness, clarity, and natural peace. To train in patience, kindness, contentment, and gratitude--no matter what might be happening.

Some people walk the Camino primarily to eat, drink, and have a nice walk. That's a holiday.
Some people walk the Camino to have a nice walk AND do their inner work. I'd have a very hard time calling that a holiday.
And some people walk the Camino mostly to do their inner work, and having a nice walk is nice if it happens. That's definitely not a holiday.
Money has less to do with it than attitude.

For me the Camino is also not a holiday or as I some times say , its not a walk in the park.
You expressed it perfectly.
Wish you well,Peter.

 

[Annette london]

I did not want to hijack @Rebekah Scott's thread on the future of Camino Hospitality, so hence this one.

In that thread, @Mark Lee said, among other things:

I kinda like being able to get a hot shower, clean (actual) bed/bunk, hot meal and cold beer everyday while walking the Camino. I have no desire to suffer. Live austerely. Been there, done that and bought the t-shirt. Not looking to do it on holiday. Yup folks. Walking the Camino is a holiday. You sure as hell ain't working. If you ain't working you are either retired or on holiday.

I know that the word "holiday" originates from Holy Day, but today that we divide activity into "work" or "holidays" purely on the basis of financial reward, simply underscores our basic consumerism. It is the philosophy of the market.

The camino is (or used to be) about another and different paradigm.

I think the market philosophy is way too simplistic, in any case. Why should activity be defined as "work" only if it is paid in coin? I doubt there is a single parent in the world who would agree with that. I enjoy some activities, for which I am paid, as much as some for which I am not paid. And vice versa. For me there is little relationship between the two.

Some societies and languages do not have a word that equates to "work". They simply have words that describe an activity.

I can assure you, that when I am on camino, I work very hard. My exhausted body tells me that every night.

It all seems terribly limiting to value everything in terms of money.

I'm sorry folks,but this post has distinctly unsettled me.
And the moderators can boot me off if they want to for saying so!

I honestly don't think it's right that someone else's opinion and post should be quoted like this and then discussed and dissected in such a manner.

Whilst there are some very self satisfied replies re inner and outer self cleansing whilst on the Camino,does it really matter if some of us enjoy the Camino simply as a holiday or a long walk as long as we respect the Camino and all that this entails.

Walking for us is certainly not a punishment and and why should we want to suffer?

Neither do I need the Camino to find my inner self....I can and do that on any long walk or indeed in my own garden.
But of course I fully respect those who utilise the Camino for this purpose.

I am not a pilgrim but the love that I have for the Camino still amazes me and indeed surprises me and .even now, as we prepare to set off again in June, I can taste it,smell it and dream of it ....and my excitement is as real as the many newbies that set off from SJPDP ......and yes....it will be a holiday for us in every sense of the word!!

Also remember folks that some who start off the Camino as walkers...
end it as pilgrims!! .......might even include the holidaymakers!!

 

[Mark Lee]

I'm sorry folks,but this post has distinctly unsettled me.
And the moderators can boot me off if they want to for saying so!

I honestly don't think it's right that someone else's opinion and post should be quoted like this and then discussed and dissected in such a manner.

Whilst there are some very self satisfied replies re inner and outer self cleansing whilst on the Camino,does it really matter if some of us enjoy the Camino simply as a holiday or a long walk as long as we respect the Camino and all that this entails.

Walking for us is certainly not a punishment and and why should we want to suffer?

Neither do I need the Camino to find my inner self....I can and do that on any long walk or indeed in my own garden.
But of course I fully respect those who utilise the Camino for this purpose.

I am not a pilgrim but the love that I have for the Camino still amazes me and indeed surprises me and .even now, as we prepare to set off again in June, I can taste it,smell it and dream of it ....and my excitement is as real as the many newbies that set off from SJPDP ......and yes....it will be a holiday for us in every sense of the word!!

Also remember folks that some who start off the Camino as walkers...
end it as pilgrims!! .......might even include the holidaymakers!!

Thanks for that, and it doesn't really bother me that my quote became a thread without me even knowing it. It's kinda nice that something I said on a one dimensional internet forum had enough of an effect on someone else that they made it a topic. Guess I got them to thinking. They sure nuff is defensive bout it.
That being said, I think they protest too much.
Also, I certainly never meant to imply that if one is retired one does not work. I do realize a lot of retirees work their asses off doing volunteer and charity stuff. I have friends who do just that, and it really has nothing to do with he topic and I do realize that people take time off from work to volunteer, do charity, etc. The Camino can be physically strenuous, and that is in a way a form of working your body, but it's not a job.
and I'm not talking about hospitaleros...they work, and I have no idea how that got ingrained in the topic.
Again, if you take off from your job and go and walk the Camino, or the AT, or the PCT, or do say, do a marathon, you are engaging in a physically strenuous hobby/pastime during your vacation/holiday.

 

[fenix]

I'm sorry folks,but this post has distinctly unsettled me.
And the moderators can boot me off if they want to for saying so!

I honestly don't think it's right that someone else's opinion and post should be quoted like this and then discussed and dissected in such a manner.

Whilst there are some very self satisfied replies re inner and outer self cleansing whilst on the Camino,does it really matter if some of us enjoy the Camino simply as a holiday or a long walk as long as we respect the Camino and all that this entails.....

I agree with you regarding the inappropriateness of this thread. In internet forums in general, it is considered poor form or rude to call someone out by name in the title or opening post of a new thread.

I understand the value of not hijacking Rebecca's thread, and the replies have been interesting and well-written, but the same could have been accomplished with a general topic heading about camino as holiday, rather than a call-out.

This thread was initiated by a moderator, though, so perhaps this is an accepted norm around here. I hope Mark at least got the courtesy of a heads-up.

 

[Deleted member 56069]

Interesting thoughts here. Now that I am only a week away from starting our Portuguese Camino from Porto, I am getting the inevitable 'have a great holiday' from friends. I feel like I need to clarify, but I don't that a Camino, while you are away from home, is not exactly the same thing as a holiday. Yes, you are away from your daily routine, but it is not the same experience as a resort style holiday even remotely.

The thing is, unless the people you are telling about your coming Camino have been on a Camino, people really don't see your Camino in a different light from a resort style holiday.

Also when they ask what how my 'holiday' was when I get home and I describe days walking in snow, rain, mud and dealing with blisters and other ailments, they look at me like I have lost my mind!
They simply can't understand why anyone would do this on purpose.

Some times while on the Camino, sitting in a nice court yard on a sunny afternoon after a days walk, with either a glass of wine in my hand or a beer, I joke to my wife that 'I almost feel like I am on a holiday!'

 

[Deleted member 61803]

I wasted a lot of my prep time watching you tube videos of the camino in order to spot places I would like to see en route. It became apparent that there are people using the route as a walking holiday, at least in video world. I gave up watching when one group described the route as a "big beer fest".

 

[domigee]

Well I for one think it was a good thing Kanga opened this new thread because what was said in a good-humoured manner (as always ) made us think...I nearly replied but didn't want to hijack the thread either.
It is not criticising you at all, @Mark Lee. In fact, you could take it as a compliment!
I just stopped and reflected. 'No, it definitely is not a holiday for me.' I am not going to bore you trying to explain what I regard as a holiday, I am simply stating that the Camino is not! In fact, I frequently think I do need a 'holiday' after walking on any pilgrimage
I am used to this sort of comment anyway, my husband often refers to my
5 + months pilgrimage to Jerusalem as my 'jolly' Only my walking mate and I know that it sure was not!

So yet again, we beg to differ, for some it is a holiday, for others anything but and ...I am one of them.

 

[VNwalking]

Whilst there are some very self satisfied replies re inner and outer self cleansing whilst on the Camino,does it really matter if some of us enjoy the Camino simply as a holiday or a long walk as long as we respect the Camino and all that this entails.

Hello, Annette...not at all. When I wrote what I said about what constitutes a holiday versus something else, I did not say anything at all about the relative value of just walking versus something else. Others may infer that, but it wasn't either meant or said. I just edited my post to make that clear and I'm sorry if anything I said caused discomfort.

 

[alaskadiver]

I agree with Annette. I think this thread, as it was started, is inappropriate and judgmental towards a member who had no clue he was being quoted and judged. Who else is going to have their words quoted and turned into a thread for strangers to dissect? Who cares what you or anyone else considers their Camino to be? It does not affect me or my experience in the least and it shouldn't affect yours. If it does, then you might need to reflect on why that is.

For the record. I'm going on vacation in May. I'm walking/hiking the Camino Primitivo. I'm not looking to find anything other than beautiful scenery and a historical connection to my ancestors. It might be physically demanding in parts but it is still a vacation away from my stressful occupation.

 

[Deleted member 36903]

@Mark Lee has almost 3000 posts and over 6ooo likes, so I assume he knows he is a respected contributor to this forum. It always good to have someone cause you to question assumptions and make you think again, and he has. Like many veteran members, @Mark Lee has always tempered warm-hearted comments with gentle provocation. On a wet, dreich day here in Scotland, it's always good to have somebody rattle my cage and get the blood flowing round the system.

 

[HeidiL]

I think of Camino time not as "time off", like holidays, but "time apart" - for me, walking the camino is a different life than the one I usually lead - work, obligations, hobbies, volunteer stuff - there is always something I SHOULD be doing.

On the Camino, whether it's for a weekend or for weeks and weeks, time is different, life is different. The only important things are putting one foot in front of the other, and what's for lunch?

Mental hygiene, that's what the Camino is - for me.

 

[good_old_shoes]

I don't think this thread was meant as personal criticism, but as a general question that came up because of the given statement in the other thread. It is an important question to be asked, so I'd find it sad if this would be closed, as long as the issue is discussed in a polite manner.


Personally, I think it is perfectly fine to walk the Camino as a holiday, as long as one respects the fact that for many others it's something else entirely.

Maybe I just get it wrong because English is not my first language... but for me, on holiday most people want to relax or have fun. Experiencing different cultures and countries can be an additional feature. Sometimes, people will go on a vacation to grow as a person, but let's be honest, much more often that's not the primary motivation, at all.


A pilgrimage has different goals than a holiday. It's a "walking meditation", it's "a metaphor for life", it's "praying with your feet", maybe it's even "Gods dream how people should be when they're with each other", to quote just a few often mentioned opinions (and I'm saying this as someone who's not religious). Some do it to worship a god or a saint, others to think about stuff, to solve problems, to change their life, to ask a god for a miracle, to express their gratitude for something, ect ect ect...

Saying the Camino is nothing more than a holiday (a holiday being something that can be bought and booked by everyone with enough money) somehow robs it of its essence - being a pilgrimage. You can buy and book a flight and your hotels, but you can't buy and book the pilgrimage. Even the tour companies with their bus tours and bought Compostelas can't change that. Being a pilgrim is a state of mind, and you can't buy that. That's one of the things that makes it something entirely different from a normal vacation.


A pilgrimage is a very personal thing, maybe that's why some of us react quite stongly when we're told it's just a holiday.
It's fine if it's a holiday for you, but don't assume it is the same for everyone else.


For me, it's certainly not.

 

[Suzanne Edminster]

I rarely contribute, and have only walked the Frances once, but I find this a very interesting thread. It has clearly touched a raw nerve in our-- I mean this site's-- collective unconscious. My private definition of pilgrimage is "Walking with a metaphor." It is contemplative and spiritual. I suppose that in our culture there is a tendency to have to defend anything not "justified" by earning money. And the taking of time is always enviable, as it is the most scarce commodity in our Western culture. So the taking of both Time and Money for a pilgrimage could seem an indulgence that needs justification, by many. And I venture that, perhaps, there are more and more people walking The Way without a metaphor, without a meaning, for a novel vacation-- perhaps many, many more than five, ten or twenty years ago. More and more people seem to be abandoning the contemplation part of it. That's a little sad for me. I'm not in favor of self-righteousness or religiosity or being grandiose about it. It just seems such a unique opportunity. There are millions of holidays but only a few pilgrimages that are hallowed by time, tradition, and the possibility of blessing.

 

[peregrina2000]

First, I want to jump in to say that I think the criticism about taking Mark's comment and moving it over to start another thread is unjustified. The mods frequently move posts to separate two different lines of discussion and I think that's all Kanga was doing here. The comment opened up a different (though clearly related) topic, but I agree that it's worthy of its own space. I don't think his comment is subject to any more or less dissection if it is a comment on a string or if it's the first post in a string. And I certainly don't think there's anything disrespectful or insidious about it.

But as to the specific topic, I appreciate the chance to do a little self-reflection in a context slightly different from the well-worn "true" vs "fake" pilgrim debate. I find myself straddling the two camps -- is this a holiday? Or maybe, as Kanga and others like Virananni have said, it's the dualism of the holiday - non-holiday boxes that is the problem.

When I head to the camino, which I do every year, I leave nearly all of my "real world" commitments behind; I put on my clean clothes and wash my dirty clothes with no thought for fashion or appearance; I follow no one's wishes but my own; I pick and choose my company, leaving behind the bloviators and trying to make contact with kindred spirits; I take a detour to walk through a beautiful gorge or to see a hidden romanesque or visigothic church; I occasionally splurge and stay in a special (and maybe pricey) place. It is self-indulgent and privileged, and there is absolutely no other way I would rather spend my time, so what is that if not a holiday?

But I wrestle with my demons as I walk; I grieve my departed loved ones; I rejoice in the circle of life and light candles for new family members who have taken the place of the generation ahead of me; I breathe in limitless gratitude for the fact that I have been given a little snippet of time on this planet and that I have the means to spend this time and money; I worry; I resolve; I try to find clarity; I focus on now and on me and my limitations and my many flaws. Though that is certainly not inconsistent with the notion of "holiday", it is not the way I typically spend a two week getaway with a rental house full of kids and grandkids. Could I accomplish all those same things at home, or on a vacation in a cabin, or even while sitting in my office? Sure, so maybe the label isn't really too important for me. But I like the chance to think about it!

 

[MichaelC]

This discussion reminds me of the debates we used to have as backpackers on the differences between 'tourists' and 'travelers.' We, of course, were travelers, and the distinction between us and those others, those tourists in their coach tours and fancy hotels, seemed obvious ... but the more we discussed the differences, the less obvious the distinctions became.

Whether the Camino is a holiday (or vacation, which is the term we'd use more) or not seems to be mostly a matter of perspective.

I won't be sitting on the beach drinking mai tais. I won't be going to Vegas or Disney or taking a coach tour where everything is planned out for me. From this perspective, the Camino is not in any way shape or form a holiday. Shoots, from this perspective I don't think I've ever even taken a holiday.

But: this summer my boss will be taking a month off on a solo motorcycle ride from Perth to Sydney, and the Big Boss will be joining her friends on a multi-week backpacking trek in Montana. For some, facing challenges, taking time to self-reflect, or going on personal journeys are a perfectly normal part of any vacation.

Though, back to Kanga's post, I guess that the concept of vacation/holiday/time-off is still tied to the idea of being at-work or not.

 

[Binya]

Diverse posts- as to be expected given the diversity of people who walk these ancient pathways. It is curious to note how words can be interpreted in many different ways; it is also interesting how the passing of time can significantly alter the meaning of a word.

As already stated, Holidays was once Holy Days: the latter, meaning time dedicated to the spirit realm; connection and communion with the divine/god source. It was considered to be a sacred time for reflection, prayer, song and liturgy.

Prayer is the same principle as carrying an intention. As we go about our lives we all seem to create meaning, and therefore purpose, by what we do, think, say, feel.
The Camino does not require us to be labelled "religious" or anything for that matter.
I would venture to say, however, that our spirit - the essence of who we are- is stirred and transformed by the experience of walking these age old Camino trails.

I love how you worded this, Suzanne E,
It just seems such a unique opportunity. There are millions of holidays but only a few pilgrimages that are hallowed by time, tradition, and the possibility of blessing.

The Camino offers us the opportunity to slow down, let go and yes...reflect.
The pilgrim with a simple backpack is a powerful metaphor.

And having written all that I conclude that, like life, there is no "right" way. But to show respect seems an important tenet to uphold: for self, for others, for the earth.
I have always appreciated the adage, The Camino brings you what you need...

 

[Lurch]

I would imagine that 1000 years ago the pilgrimage was broken down the same way. While most were devout and viewed their journey as a arduous one, there were those who were rich enough to make the journey one of ease. The cathedrals along the way were built to demonstrate the devotion, and importance, of the bishops and many, if not all, probably gawked at their beauty, as tourists do today.


Plus back then, in Mark Lee's defense, the Camino was a 2-way street, with pilgrims returning hume the same way they left. I am sure there were a lot of questions being asked about the alburgues ahead on the road yet to come. Most travelers wanted then, as now, to stay in the best acommodations they could. Maybe it was just a dry spot in a manger but that was much better than sleeping in the rain.

 

[trecile]

Whilst there are some very self satisfied replies re inner and outer self cleansing whilst on the Camino,does it really matter if some of us enjoy the Camino simply as a holiday or a long walk as long as we respect the Camino and all that this entails.

Walking for us is certainly not a punishment and and why should we want to suffer?

Neither do I need the Camino to find my inner self....I can and do that on any long walk or indeed in my own garden.
But of course I fully respect those who utilise the Camino for this purpose.

I am not a pilgrim but the love that I have for the Camino still amazes me and indeed surprises me and .even now, as we prepare to set off again in June, I can taste it,smell it and dream of it ....and my excitement is as real as the many newbies that set off from SJPDP ......and yes....it will be a holiday for us in every sense of the word!!

I think of Camino time not as "time off", like holidays, but "time apart" - for me, walking the camino is a different life than the one I usually lead - work, obligations, hobbies, volunteer stuff - there is always something I SHOULD be doing.

On the Camino, whether it's for a weekend or for weeks and weeks, time is different, life is different. The only important things are putting one foot in front of the other, and what's for lunch?

Mental hygiene, that's what the Camino is - for me.

When I head to the camino, which I do every year, I leave nearly all of my "real world" commitments behind; I put on my clean clothes and wash my dirty clothes with no thought for fashion or appearance; I follow no one's wishes but my own; I pick and choose my company, leaving behind the bloviators and trying to make contact with kindred spirits; I take a detour to walk through a beautiful gorge or to see a hidden romanesque or visigothic church; I occasionally splurge and stay in a special (and maybe pricey) place. It is self-indulgent and privileged, and there is absolutely no other way I would rather spend my time, so what is that if not a holiday?

The sentiments in these quotes describe why I love walking the Camino.
I'm not doing it for any religious or spiritual reason (unless you consider the joy I find walking spiritual), and wanted only a distance certificate at the end, not a Compostela.
But last year, before I started out on my first Camino, after reading some comments on this forum about the nature of a true pilgrimage I became a bit hesitant about going, fearing that I would be judged as not worthy to be on the same path as those walking in a "righteous" manner. I am happy to report that I really didn't meet anyone who acted or spoke that way.
Walking the Camino is self-indulgent, and those of us with the time and means to do it are privileged. And I think that we all do it for our own selfish reasons.

 

[Deleted member 67185]

"Vacation" or "holiday" are derived terms which are part of a compensation package during employment. These are terms for spending a resource that one has earned, much the same way that one spends the dollars or pounds one earns in their paychecks. There are other terms for taking time off of work, however. Unpaid leave; medical leave; sabbaticals; these are all time away from formal employment. So, there are many ways to have time available to walk the Camino besides just taking a holiday or being on retirement.

Taking a vacation or holiday does not define how I utilize my vacation, or what that time is for. Nor more so than my paycheck defines how I must use the dollars I have earned. A vacation can be spent digging wells for a clean water supply in an African village, or lying on a Mediterranean beach somewhere, doing nothing more than sipping umbrella drinks and soaking up the sun. One may use a sabbatical for serious research, or for personal reflection while sipping umbrella drinks on a Mediterranean beach while soaking up the sun.

The problem, I think, some may have with Mark's comment is how each of us perceives what is meant by the terms "vacation" or "holiday" and how it appears to some folks to demean, in some manner, what is hoped to have been achieved by walking the Way.

 

[Kanga]

Thanks for that, and it doesn't really bother me that my quote became a thread without me even knowing it.

I quoted your thread @Mark Lee because, unless you have disabled it, you automatically receive an alert so would know.

 

[Mark Lee]

I quoted your thread @Mark Lee because, unless you have disabled it, you automatically receive an alert so would know.

Yeah, I probably disabled those alerts some time ago. I never check those account settings.

 

[VNwalking]

It's very interesting to see where this thread has gone overnight.
So thank you to @Kanga starting the thread, and @Mark Lee for saying what you did to start off a thoughtful and interesting discussion--and for taking it all in your stride. It can be easy to take ourselves way too seriously...and one thing I really appreciate about you, Mark, is your sense of humor--I don't always agree with you, but I often chuckle at the way you say what you say. I was one of those who was surprised at the reaction to your quote being used, as it seemed completely innocent and uncritical. And sure enough, you came back with that lightness. Thank you!
And to everyone for thought-provoking contributions.

 

[Glenn Rowe]

It's kinda nice that something I said on a one dimensional internet forum had enough of an effect on someone else that they made it a topic. Guess I got them to thinking. They sure nuff is defensive bout it.
That being said, I think they protest too much.

Don't be shy, Mark! Tell us what you really think!

We recently talked about the concept of "my Camino" as well. I'm of the opinion that, since the individual motivations/intentions/experiences/outcomes are both very personal and extremely diverse, the true number of Caminos is equal to the number of individuals who have walked all or part of it.

 

[Kanga]

I seem to be getting a kick from Cyclone Debbie. Definitely an Altus day.

I enjoy the way philosophy messes with the mind. Lovely themes to ponder on, as the rain pours down.

If I earn money, but I am not employed, and I continue to earn money while I am on Camino (I wish) - is the Camino then work or a holiday? Does work have to involve effort? If yes, does it have to be physical effort? If mental effort - what distinguishes it from plain "thinking"?

Should we think of work in terms of social utility, not market forces? If so, is "internal work" as @Viranani uses the term, of value? What if it makes me a better person, and therefore a greater contributor to community wellbeing?

Gulp. Time to take a pill!

 

[Kanga]

Maybe I should close this thread. It seems very far away from "helping pilgrims since 2004". Or boots.

 

[VNwalking]

Maybe I should close this thread. It seems very far away from "helping pilgrims since 2004". Or boots.

Please Don't, Kanga! It's much more interesting than boots--and goes to the core of what it is that we're all doing out there. So far, we are (mostly) cordial, and I for one am getting a lot out of everything people are saying.

If I earn money, but I am not employed, and I continue to earn money while I am on Camino (I wish) - is the Camino then work or a holiday? Does work have to involve effort? If yes, does it have to be physical effort? If mental effort - what distinguishes it from plain "thinking"?

I think it all boils down to motivation and attitude, rather than venue and remuneration. And as I use the term, inner work can involve thinking and reflection--but not aimless woolgathering or wandering mind. It aims always towards understanding and letting go. (I know, all very Buddhist--but I imagine that's pretty universal in other traditions, please correct me I'm wrong, everyone.)

Should we think of work in terms of social utility, not market forces? If so, is "internal work" as @Viranani uses the term, of value? What if it makes me a better person, and therefore a greater contributor to community wellbeing?

Yes. Yes! And even more so.
Stay dry over there, Kanga!

 

[Robo]

Just a good healthy debate Kanga

And so far all the toys are still in the Cot

 

[Robo]

Walking the Camino is self-indulgent, and those of us with the time and means to do it are privileged. And I think that we all do it for our own selfish reasons.

That was my greatest emotional challenge on my first Camino! Taking so much time out. Unplugging from responsibilities. Knowing others were 'picking up the slack' whilst I was away.

But the encouragement from those back home kept me going, and I think I came out the end a better person for it.

Now I just have to take my 'better half' with me to avoid those feels of selfishness! I think carrying half her gear helps..... And doing all her washing...... and packing...... and footcare..... Definitely not feeling selfish any more!

In fact maybe a hair shirt and walking barefoot would just be easier

 

[jo webber]

I used to work for money, then I retired. Now I have some money and no paid work.
This "retirement" is an odd transition after 45 yrs of work. When I read the phrase in the other post "going from the doing phase to the being phase" .... Wow.

Walking the Camino, for me, will be leaving behind the doing and moving into the being.
Children are also in the being phase, no work, no bills, no demands pulling and pushing. Yes school, but summer vacation. Summer vacation, between the times of "doing" is not a bad thing.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I think the whole work vs. holiday dichotomy is a false one in the first place, concerning the Camino.

Sure, some people can and do treat it as basically just a walking holiday -- but approached seriously, a pilgrimage is by no means a mere holiday, which doesn't mean that this makes it "work".

Ultimately, the problem with saying the Camino is just a holiday is to just fall into the all-too-common trap of trying to define the Camino according to one's own opinions of it, as if these personal views had some sort of "universal" truth to them ...

And :

A pilgrimage has different goals than a holiday.

Exactly -- unless your purpose on the Camino is just to go on a holiday

Saying the Camino is nothing more than a holiday (a holiday being something that can be bought and booked by everyone with enough money) somehow robs it of its essence - being a pilgrimage.

More importantly, I think it's incredibly disrespectful and dismissive of the thousands upon thousands of pilgrims seeking something on the Camino.

 

[David]

I think there is an error here where folk see this post and thread as a criticism of Mark Lee - you would only have to read just a few of Mark's posts to see that he is obviously a great guy and has a clear thinking mind that doesn't just follow what one is 'supposed' to believe, kind and an independent thinker - seems to me that Kanga has plucked out the 'work-holiday' thought (without criticism!) - and I think it makes a great discussion post!

Mark is right, surely, in one respect ... there are very few truly poor people on Camino .. those from other countries seem to buy all their kit brand new, pay for expensive aeroplane journeys, health insurance, hotels pre and post Camino .. they come with smart phones, disposable cash to enable them to buy whatever they need or want whilst on Camino ... unless they were born wealthy they will have jobs that give them a good income and going on Camino is a planned break from that - so in that sense, of course it is a holiday ... but behind that concept is intention - and intention is of prime importance here .. if one is religious or 'spiritual' or at a crossroads in life or suffering pain or grief or anguish one can be drawn to Camino - we all know this - so although externally it may look the same, the process being the same, to those it is not a holiday, not at all.
I have known pilgrims who have given up their jobs to go on Camino, it was so important to them ... so, for Mark it is a holiday, and probably a well deserved one (but I find that he is still 'called' to Camino ), but to many others it isn't ... perhaps we are missing a word here as it is not merely 'absence from work therefore a holiday' .. so - sabbatical?

One definition of sabattical is "In recent times, "sabbatical" has come to mean any extended absence in the career of an individual in order to achieve something. In the modern sense, one takes sabbatical typically to fulfill some goal"

and I would prefer to think of all pilgrims who are drawn to the discomfort and hardship of Camino in the hope of processing internal thoughts and their life in general as not being on 'holiday' but taking a sabbatical for personal and, hopefully, deep reasons.

 

[Kanga]

Thank you @David - I think that rather nicely draws thing together.

 

[Antonius Vaessen]

Thanks for that, and it doesn't really bother me that my quote became a thread without me even knowing it. It's kinda nice that something I said on a one dimensional internet forum had enough of an effect on someone else that they made it a topic. Guess I got them to thinking. They sure nuff is defensive bout it.
That being said, I think they protest too much.
Also, I certainly never meant to imply that if one is retired one does not work. I do realize a lot of retirees work their asses off doing volunteer and charity stuff. I have friends who do just that, and it really has nothing to do with he topic and I do realize that people take time off from work to volunteer, do charity, etc. The Camino can be physically strenuous, and that is in a way a form of working your body, but it's not a job.
and I'm not talking about hospitaleros...they work, and I have no idea how that got ingrained in the topic.
Again, if you take off from your job and go and walk the Camino, or the AT, or the PCT, or do say, do a marathon, you are engaging in a physically strenuous hobby/pastime during your vacation/holiday.

I think you are right . A holiday for me is any longer lasting activitity which you undertake totally based on your own choice, no pressure from society or others. Wheather you spend it on strenuous activities, (inner or outer) pilgrimage and so on is of no importance in this. Walking treks in Nepal or Camino was hard on the body, still I never would qualify it as work.

 

[Kanga]

I've deleted some posts and closing the thread as it has descended into a serious of personal attacks and counter attacks.

I apologise to members. I should never have started the thread in the first place.

 

[wayfarer]

@Kanga, starting the thread was not the problem, it was a good thread IMO if people just respected each others opinions and didn't get personal.