Have I gotten the wrong idea?

[Dov of the Galilee]

Greetings from Israel. I have been doing my homework so to speak and I've watched a number of long documentaries on YouTube showing some people's perspective of their journey. Something that has caught my eye but was never addressed in any of the videos so far is the fact that men and women are laying together in communal beds or shelves where you lay down a sleeping bag and have someone to the left and right to you within marital closeness I might add. In the dorms I'm familiar with here in the Holy Land the sexes are separated stringently is this not the case on the El Comino?

 

[Tincatinker]

Hi Dov, welcome to the Forum. The vast, vast majority of Albergue accommodation is what our american friends would call co-ed. Unisex sleeping accommodation, segregated sanitary facilities. Men and women laid together in communal beds? No. In some Albergues there may not be much space between beds but these are single beds. There is a strong tradition of communality in Europe where you will find both sexes (some might say all seven) bunked in the same room, but not in the same bunk.

 

[grayland]

Welcome to the forum, Dov.

The albergues are indeed mixed gender.
The normal bunk arrangement in a lower and top bunk with 2 to 3 feet spacing between the bunks.
It is not quite the closeness you describe. There are a few albergues that separate the rooms.
The bathrooms are also usually mixed gender.
One can elect to simply not stay in an albergue that is objectionable.
It has been this way pretty much forever.

 

[nidarosa]

Actually there are quite a few places where two and two bunkbeds are pushed together, effectively creating a double bed both up and down. If I am in a bottom double I hang a sarong or towel between the beds for a bit of privacy, and up top I usually put my drybag with the next day's clothes between our pillows so I don't have to stare into a stranger's face in the morning. In the places that do this there are still bunks that are not double - doubles are far from the norm. As just about everyone is inside their own silk liner or sleeping bag the closeness has never really bothered me but then I am European and used to mixed sex or co-ed situations.

 

[mspath]

Try not to take a bunk set side by side with another unless you truly know your bunk-mate; if you are sleeping next to a total stranger do at least introduce yourself!

Generally it works out as all sleep in their allotted spaces like peas in a pod. Nevertheless a few unhappy times I have had to find another bunk in the middle of the night due to a consistently overactive neighboring pilgrim who forgot where he was as he zealously thrashed into 'my' space. Since I am in my mid 70s and whilst sleeping in late autumn/winter resemble "the wicked witch of the west" I assume that if he had awakened he would have been dutifully shocked!

 

[Tincatinker]

I posted this in a thread www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/the-daily-routine.18372 a couple of years ago and I'm still smugly pleased with myself. It, and the thread have some relevance here.

"In years of sleeping in Patrol Tents, Bothies, Chata, Refuges and huts scattered across Europe, and lately in the blessed Albergues of the Camino I have observed that one does not observe ones fellow sleepers. This may be a European trait rather than a global one. But it is simply not done to "see" someone in a state of déshabillé. Whether your bunk-mate is portly and in Y-fronts or shapely and in a thong, pyjama clad or neatly nightied, is of no relevance because you will not see it; as they will offer the courtesy of not seeing you. Living in close intimacy with strangers can be disturbing to some, many, with a little self-discipline, will not even notice."

 

[CaminoDebrita]

Greetings from Israel. I have been dining my homework so to speak and I've watched a number of long documentaries on YouTube showing some people's perspective of their journey. Something that has caught my eye but was never addressed in any of the videos so far is the fact that men and women are laying together in communal beds or shelves where you lay down a sleeping bag and have someone to the left and right to you within marital closeness I might add. In the dorms I'm familiar with here in the Holy Land the sexes are seaprated stringently is this not the case on the El Comino?

I would also like to welcome you to the forum!

It seems that your question and concern has very thoroughly been answered, but I will just add that most of us have absolutely no interest--while on Camino--in anything you might be implying. Some, of course, might be "looking for love"---but as the song continues, it could be "in all the wrong places."

Try to "see" with ungendered eyes, if you will.

And as someone else suggested, there are plenty of hotels and private albergues that can accommodate you if you feel unnerved sharing space with women.

Buen Camino, and looking forward to supporting you as you plan for Camino 2020!

 

[naplesdon]

Can't remember where but there have actually been a few albergues that I have stayed where there were male and female sleeping spaces.

 

[JohnMcM]

Greetings from Israel. I have been dining my homework so to speak and I've watched a number of long documentaries on YouTube showing some people's perspective of their journey. Something that has caught my eye but was never addressed in any of the videos so far is the fact that men and women are laying together in communal beds or shelves where you lay down a sleeping bag and have someone to the left and right to you within marital closeness I might add. In the dorms I'm familiar with here in the Holy Land the sexes are seaprated stringently is this not the case on the El Comino?

Hello Dov and welcome to your forum.

I have read 'with interest' the comments by others. 'With Interest' because before I set out on my first Camino, this was something I thought would be part and parcel of the experience. Perhaps that was because I am of much the same ilk as Tincantinker (see his post above at 4:21pm).

In light of your post, I will rethink through my past behaviour in albergues and ask myself "could I have been more considerate?".

Thanks for the thought.

Buen (comfortable-sleeping-distance) Camino

 

[Dov of the Galilee]

Thank you for all of the replies one & all. I guess the difference is that here in Israel the establishments are run by nuns or monks and they certainly would not be up for co-ed lodging, it's still strange because the youth hostels throughout Europe are not co-ed or not when I used them at least.

 

[november_moon]

I think the communal sleeping can be an adjustment to people who have never done it before, but its really not bad. Like others said, people give you privacy by just not seeing you when you are changing, sleeping, or whatever. And most people are discrete. Its the same as when people are camping and backpacking - sleeping in close quarters and sharing facilities. I never stayed in a bunk where 2 bunks were pushed together with no space in between, but I did stay in places where the bunks were only a couple feet apart or were lined up end-to-end along a wall.

I walked with my husband and it would have been kind of a hassle to have had segregated sleeping rooms, especially since we shared stuff like the first aid kit, soap, and so on. I imagine it would be the same with any other mixed-gender group walking together. I also met some great friends on the Camino (both male and female) because we happened to be staying in adjacent beds.

 

[grayland]

Thank you for all of the replies one & all. I guess the difference is that here in Israel the establishments are run by nuns or monks and they certainly would not be up for co-ed lodging, it's still strange because the youth hostels throughout Europe are not co-ed or not when I used them at least.

Actually, many of the albergues on the camino that are run by sisters are the same mixed gender in the sleeping areas.

 

[november_moon]

in Israel the establishments are run by nuns or monks and they certainly would not be up for co-ed lodging

This kind of thing always makes me wonder what exactly the monks and nuns think people are going to do in the co-ed lodging On the Camino, you've got a bunch of tired people, with sore feet, sore knees, blisters, varying degrees of personal hygiene, everybody wearing dowdy hiking clothes, sleeping in rooms with dozens of other people. This isn't exactly a sexy situation.

Although I have heard of "hookups" on the Camino, I never saw any evidence of it in the alburgues.

 

[Introibo]

Custody of the eyes.

 

[Albertagirl]

There can be challenges with co-ed lodging, particularly for those who are used to sleeping alone, but the biggest challenge on the camino is the snoring, which is mentioned in many threads, as it prevents people from sleeping. I have always been more comfortable sleeping in a room with other women, but I did not expect that on the camino. I was disconcerted by communal living twice: in an albergue where the bathing facilities were separate, I stepped out of a shower completely unclothed just as the door of the shower room opened to the voice of the albergue manager (male) showing around a female arrival. Stepping quickly back into the shower, I fell and hit my head and various other body parts. Modesty can be dangerous to ones health. In the large albergue at Najera, bunks are pushed up against one another, and the gentleman whose bunk was adjacent to mine was clearly used to sleeping with a degree of closeness that was not comfortable for me. He was in no way rude, just that when he was asleep he had no sense of being next to another person who preferred not to share her bunk. I have seen a young couple crawl out of a common bunk in the morning, but they weren't bothering me, so I just looked away. If the alternative is going on camino half as often, as I am having to save up for private accommodation, or not making the contacts that one makes during communal living, I choose to learn to live with it and hope that others are content to learn to live with me.

 

[Kathor1]

it's still strange because the youth hostels throughout Europe are not co-ed or not when I used them at least.

Alpine huts have been mixed gender dormitories as long as I can remember (and that's a long time), maybe they were the model rather than youth hostels.

 

[Dov of the Galilee]

It's certainly been an education and a tad of a disappointment too. What has been eye opening in this is how many make a "pilgrimage" and they are not Catholic or Christian and they are seemingly more into the hike which is fine but the very idea of the pilgrimage is a religious quest. Ten years back when I was a student in Jerusalem part of the week I used religious hostels to find shelter which at that point was $10 a night. In these instances the men & women had separate sleeping quarters but that didn't quash the problems. There were men showing porn on their laptops, a few times there were fights and police involved and the drinking and puking was an issue. These 'pilgrims' were in actuality backpackers and during those couple of years this type of behavior saw all the better hostels close their doors to the dorms. Some of the different sects have guest houses and they are quite clean and quiet and affordable which is not a Jerusalem common theme but they require documents from a priest from back home etc. That's what I envisioned for such an old route but it seems to be not the case.

 

[Bradypus]

I think that you have indeed gotten the wrong idea. Yes - most of the albergues along the Caminos have mixed-sex dormitories and men and women do sleep close together. However, I have very rarely encountered the drunkenness, puking, fighting and displays of porn which you have encountered in other places. Your posts seem to be suggesting that mixed-sex accommodation and such anti-social or degenerate behaviour are somehow linked or even inevitable. My experience of the Spanish caminos has very much been the reverse and I find consideration, modest behaviour and mutual respect to be by far more common amongst my fellow pilgrims. That is true in almost all encounters I have witnessed between pilgrims of either sex. Of course there are some people who act inappropriately but this is very far from being the norm.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Can't remember where but there have actually been a few albergues that I have stayed where there were male and female sleeping spaces.

Carbajalas is one of them, the nuns is Carrion de Los Condes as well. Can't remember any others.

A technique not too feel so close to the person in the bunk right next to you is to sleep with your head where the other person' sur feet are, but don't complain if you get kicked in the face

 

[CaminoDebrita]

It's certainly been an education and a tad of a disappointment too. What has been eye opening in this is how many make a "pilgrimage" and they are not Catholic or Christian and they are seemingly more into the hike which is fine but the very idea of the pilgrimage is a religious quest. Ten years back when I was a student in Jerusalem part of the week I used religious hostels to find shelter which at that point was $10 a night. In these instances the men & women had separate sleeping quarters but that didn't quash the problems. There were men showing porn on their laptops, a few times there were fights and police involved and the drinking and puking was an issue. These 'pilgrims' were in actuality backpackers and during those couple of years this type of behavior saw all the better hostels close their doors to the dorms. Some of the different sects have guest houses and they are quite clean and quiet and affordable which is not a Jerusalem common theme but they require documents from a priest from back home etc. That's what I envisioned for such an old route but it seems to be not the case.

Don't consider yourself really educated until you walk the Camino. Don't be disappointed until you are disappointed--while walking the Camino. Spain is not Jerusalem.

I have never seen porn, fighting, or "puking" while walking Camino Frances--the first time, from SJPP to SdC, all 780 kilometers. The second, I've just gotten home from.

Envisioning and actually experiencing are different. I don't understand why you are becoming disillusioned before you experience the Camino firsthand.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

Dov, the Camino de Santiago does have its share of plain old good-time backpackers, but the pilgrim spirit still does rule in most albergues, most of the time. Most pilgrims have grown beyond the party-animal stage, and by the time they arrive at an albergue they are worn out. The albergue doors close at 10 p.m., and by then just about everyone is already fast asleep! This keeps the puking and fights to a minimum, and keeps the albergues open and operating as one would hope.
I have volunteered at monastic hostels where the genders were separated, and the few arguments that broke out were over washing-lines and access to electrical outlets!
I don't think you will find anything on the camino to object to, frankly. Just about every pilgrim I know is a mensch.

 

[Tincatinker]

Dov, I make pilgrimage and I am not christian. My gods are far older. No-one has, yet, denied me the privileges of pilgrimage even when I make my beliefs clear. Porn, fights, drinking and puking I have not encountered (well ok puking; ok and a fight over snoring: but definitely no porn). The Albergues of the Caminos are well managed (mostly) to provide shelter for pilgrims on the roads to Santiago. And a document is required: the Credencial which records, sello (the stamp provided by your Albergue, churches, town halls and bars) after sello that you have walked to Santiago.

I sincerely suggest that you stop researching the Caminos de Santiago on Utube and start your research, again, on this forum. A slightly more reliable source.

 

[lovingkindness]

...Ten years back...

Shalom, Dov.
...ten years on you may be surprised. People change.

Last summer I met an interesting fellow along the Zittauer Jacobsweg, (Czech Rep). One day years before he had a powerful urge to walk to Santiago d C. then another to hike from Brittany all the way home. Setting off an atheist he found faith along the way. When I met him he was about to be ordained as a priest... There are those, also who set off with faith but somehow lose it or discard it along the Way. I've met one or two of those as well.

Cheers
Lovingkindness

 

[koilife]

It's certainly been an education and a tad of a disappointment too. What has been eye opening in this is how many make a "pilgrimage" and they are not Catholic or Christian and they are seemingly more into the hike which is fine but the very idea of the pilgrimage is a religious quest. Ten years back when I was a student in Jerusalem part of the week I used religious hostels to find shelter which at that point was $10 a night. In these instances the men & women had separate sleeping quarters but that didn't quash the problems. There were men showing porn on their laptops, a few times there were fights and police involved and the drinking and puking was an issue. These 'pilgrims' were in actuality backpackers and during those couple of years this type of behavior saw all the better hostels close their doors to the dorms. Some of the different sects have guest houses and they are quite clean and quiet and affordable which is not a Jerusalem common theme but they require documents from a priest from back home etc. That's what I envisioned for such an old route but it seems to be not the case.

I am a faithful and conservative Catholic, and I took my oldest son at age 15, and am returning this summer with my middle son, now age 15. I had no problems from the first camino that make me hesitate for this second one. Only twice did I see intoxication of any significant degree (which was a teachable moment with my son), but never to the state of puking or belligerence. Only once was there a case where a woman changing in a nearly empty albergue was at all questionable (and I was gratified to see my son turn away discretely rather than stare), and there was no nudity involved. Frankly, 35 days walking the Camino was more tame than a high-school after-prom party or most PG-13 movies.

 

[Mark Lee]

You do see the occasional couple lying together on the albergue bunks, but nobody is knocking boots or anything. If a couple is interested in getting closer, it is easy enough to get a room in a pensiones or something.
Overall, pilgrims on the Camino are very well behaved, especially considering the abundance of good wine and beer on the Way.

 

[simply B]

Dov, I echo the sentiments above. My experiences of the Camino to date have all been positive in this respect. The Way is almost strangely (though delightfully) chaste; a small (but long!) island in a world awash in the "7 Deadlies". Put your mind at ease and go.

B

 

[newgabe]

Thanks Dov for bringing this up so honestly as sleeping in dorms close to others is something I'm not looking forward to either. Not because of any gender/sex issues just because I have never liked/slept well close to others.. not even when I was married! So 'marital closeness' doesn't imply arousal to me, but sleep destroyed by noises (oh the hell of snoring!) disturbing movement and stale air. I know I'm a total softie and princess about this so I will likely mix private accommodation, valium, earplugs and prayers to 'get over it' into that part of my upcoming Camino.
After a few weeks 'solo' I'll become a 'touragrino' as I'm joining a preplanned group from Ponferrada to Santiago. By then I imagine my prayers will be to let go of walking just as far/stopping where I care to in a day, and going along with the 'set stages' of a pre-booked tour.
I hope you have a wonderful time, Dov, when you make it. and thanks all who have replied.

 

[rometimed]

Frankly I don't care what sex you are as long as you don't snore too loud.

If you do snore I hope you do it in chorus with the others.

 

[Mark Lee]

Dov, I echo the sentiments above. My experiences of the Camino to date have all been positive in this respect. The Way is almost strangely (though delightfully) chaste; a small (but long!) island in a world awash in the "7 Deadlies". Put your mind at ease and go.

B

Yup, on all three of my Caminos at some point I've said to myself....."oh, to be in my twenties again". Ha ha.

 

[Felipe]

I am from a country where men and women dorms and bathrooms spaces are always clearly apart (hey, even in pilgrimages, groups walk separately).
So, to us it is an interesting experiences to travel en Europe, where the concepts are different (neither worse nor better, just different).
The Camino albergues have been covered by previous posts.
Compartments in overnight trains in France are mixed, too. Nobody cares (although I have noticed lately that women travelling alone can also book compartments for women only).
Spain is a modern country, and there are many Camino agencies and service providers. I think that, with a little of research, you can manage to get accommodations suitable to your personal preferences.
Buen camino!

 

[AJ]

Can't remember where but there have actually been a few albergues that I have stayed where there were male and female sleeping spaces.

There used to be separate male and female dorms in Santillana del Mar (2009), but that may have changed.

 

[MTtoCamino]

It's certainly been an education and a tad of a disappointment too. What has been eye opening in this is how many make a "pilgrimage" and they are not Catholic or Christian and they are seemingly more into the hike which is fine but the very idea of the pilgrimage is a religious quest. Ten years back when I was a student in Jerusalem part of the week I used religious hostels to find shelter which at that point was $10 a night. In these instances the men & women had separate sleeping quarters but that didn't quash the problems. There were men showing porn on their laptops, a few times there were fights and police involved and the drinking and puking was an issue. These 'pilgrims' were in actuality backpackers and during those couple of years this type of behavior saw all the better hostels close their doors to the dorms. Some of the different sects have guest houses and they are quite clean and quiet and affordable which is not a Jerusalem common theme but they require documents from a priest from back home etc. That's what I envisioned for such an old route but it seems to be not the case.

I must say I never witnesses behavior as you described, I hope I never do as I would get put in jail. Respect of others is what made my Camino so wonderful.

 

[grayland]

Carbajalas is one of them, the nuns is Carrion de Los Condes as well. Can't remember any others.

A technique not too feel so close to the person in the bunk right next to you is to sleep with your head where the other person' sur feet are, but don't complain if you get kicked in the face

The Santa Maria Albergue in Carrion de Los Condes run by the Augustine Sisters and is not separated in the dorms,,, they are mixed...but the bathrooms are separate. I have served as a hospitalero there.
I don't know about the other albergue in Carrion that is run by another order of Sisters.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

In 15 weeks on the Camino I encountered puking once, by a man well into his fifties, and one incident of drunken stupper after that. I have never witnessed any signs of promiscuity or inappropriate sexual behaviour. And certainly no porn. Yes backpackers are wa

The Santa Maria Albergue in Carrion de Los Condes run by the Augustine Sisters is not separated in the dorms they are mixed...but the bathrooms are separate. I have served as a hospitalero there.
I don't know about the other albergue in Carrion that is run by another order of Sisters.

I guess they just decided to separate us that day then because it was boys here, girls there. In Santillana El Solar de Hidalgos is also boys here, girls there.

 

[simply B]

@Mark Lee -

Yep, I often wished to be in my twenties on Camino - fewer aches and pains!

That's what you meant, right?

B

 

[Rajy62]

Can't remember where but there have actually been a few albergues that I have stayed where there were male and female sleeping spaces.

Yes I also came across some alberques run by the nuns, asking for proof if you were married. otherwise separate domes.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Yes I also came across some alberques run by the nuns, asking for proof if you were married. otherwise separate domes.

I am having visions of a swingers couples' dorm!

 

[Texas Walker]

Greetings from Israel. I have been dining my homework so to speak and I've watched a number of long documentaries on YouTube showing some people's perspective of their journey. Something that has caught my eye but was never addressed in any of the videos so far is the fact that men and women are laying together in communal beds or shelves where you lay down a sleeping bag and have someone to the left and right to you within marital closeness I might add. In the dorms I'm familiar with here in the Holy Land the sexes are seaprated stringently is this not the case on the El Comino?

Hello, Dov! In addition to the many reassuring replies above, I tender something a little bit different, but I hope also reassuring. My spouse and I slept in our next-day walking clothes. (Except for sox and shoes of course.) There were plenty of folks who subjected us to the vision of them wandering about in tee shirt and panties, or the male equivalent. But nobody made a big deal about it, and it wasn't like they were putting on a display or anything. The only thing annoying along the lines of what you may have been thinking was one couple, who were given up and down bunks, in an "albergue turistico" in, um, our second to last night on the road. They thought that siesta time should be a bit of an away "for us" time...well, the guy did. The gal didn't. And they had this conversation while I was trying to sleep. Jiminy cricket, already, people, I walked from 0630 to 1400 or so today with a pack and I want to sleep already. Which of course, it being rude, I didn't say. But I must have thought loudly, or they got the impression from my pointed rustle-y turning over. (Yes this was in a big huge common dorm and normal sensible persons would have called it public space!) At any rate, everyone survived the night with no embarrassment. But--and this is key--this was not a dorm that was marked as a "pilgrim albergue" it was marked as a tourist albergue. One annoying moment out of what? 4 1/2 weeks? Not bad.
And for our final night on the road we opted to find a pension above a bar. Peace, quiet, no hassles. And when two persons are traveling together, a lot of the pensiones are close to the same cost as the albergues. Depending on the albergue of course.
If God is calling you to walk--or bike--the trail, you should go. All will work out. And you will never be the same again.

 

[Mark Lee]

@Mark Lee -

Yep, I often wished to be in my twenties on Camino - fewer aches and pains!

That's what you meant, right?

B

ha ha....ummm, yeah...something like that

 

[trecile]

There were men showing porn on their laptops

I can't imagine that there are very many people bringing laptops on the Camino

 

[november_moon]

It's certainly been an education and a tad of a disappointment too. What has been eye opening in this is how many make a "pilgrimage" and they are not Catholic or Christian and they are seemingly more into the hike which is fine but the very idea of the pilgrimage is a religious quest.

This is indeed unfortunate. On the one hand, you say that it is fine that those of us who aren't Christians are walking the Camino, but on the other hand, you are disappointed that we will be there. You are clearly prejuding people - even putting our pilgrimage in quotes as though it's not real because it doesn't fit your definition of a pilgrimage. The Camino has things to teach us all.

Hike Your Own Hike, Walk Your Own Camino. Don't worry about other people's motivations for being there.

 

[Icacos]

Try not to take a bunk set side by side with another unless you truly know your bunk-mate; if you are sleeping next to a total stranger do at least introduce yourself!

Margaret, I wish I had your aplomb, but I don't. The one time I found myself side by side with a strange man, in an albergue that was completo, I was so uncomfortable I did not even acknowledge his existence and, I'm happy to say, he afforded me the same 'courtesy.' Actually, I was generally uncomfortable sharing close quarters at the best of times, and luxuriated in the more-than-occasional private room with en suite.

 

[Catahoula19]

We had to try to sleep in a second floor room in Ponferrada while the couple downstairs were engaged in loud sauce-making in the wee hours of the morning. At one point it was all I could do not to bang on the floor and yell "finish it already!" but I didn't.

 

[Bradypus]

I can't imagine that there are very many people bringing laptops on the Camino

Used to be very common at one time. I was always surprised that people would (a) lug around the extra weight and (b) risk damaging such very expensive gear with all the hazards en route. They have been replaced these days with tablets and smartphones doing much the same jobs and a lot more but with far less weight and bulk.

On the porn issue: the only place I ever came across it in Spain was in a bar in Ponferrada very early one morning some years ago. The only place open near the railway station. A large TV displaying some very unorthodox uses of vegetables. Certainly unhygenic in an eating establishment. Very quickly turned off when a female customer entered. I have never encountered anything of the sort in an albergue.

 

[smj6]

...I hang a sarong or towel between the beds for a bit of privacy, and up top I usually put my drybag with the next day's clothes between our pillows so I don't have to stare into a stranger's face in the morning...

Thanks for this suggestion, @nidarosa, very practical & very useful.
Suzanne

 

[fraluchi]

This kind of thing always makes me wonder what exactly the monks and nuns think people are going to do in the co-ed lodging [...]

Count sheep, maybe?

 

[Mark Lee]

Margaret, I wish I had your aplomb, but I don't. The one time I found myself side by side with a strange man, in an albergue that was completo, I was so uncomfortable I did not even acknowledge his existence and, I'm happy to say, he afforded me the same 'courtesy.' Actually, I was generally uncomfortable sharing close quarters at the best of times, and luxuriated in the more-than-occasional private room with en suite.

I think I only experienced that situation once on the CF and I don't even remember where and when. Fortunately the beds were pretty wide and myself and the peregrina hardly even noticed each other, and honestly once I lay my head down in the albergues after lights out I'm asleep within a few minutes.

 

[SeaHorse]

It's certainly been an education and a tad of a disappointment too. What has been eye opening in this is how many make a "pilgrimage" and they are not Catholic or Christian and they are seemingly more into the hike which is fine but the very idea of the pilgrimage is a religious quest.

As per Codex Callixtina pagans, jews, and vagabonds are also allowed on the Camino. And they can't have any notes from a priest back home. Because this is an old route, maybe the oldest there is? Follow the Milky Way to the End of land are old and easy instructions.

 

[jennie]

It's certainly been an education and a tad of a disappointment too. What has been eye opening in this is how many make a "pilgrimage" and they are not Catholic or Christian and they are seemingly more into the hike which is fine but the very idea of the pilgrimage is a religious quest. Ten years back when I was a student in Jerusalem part of the week I used religious hostels to find shelter which at that point was $10 a night. In these instances the men & women had separate sleeping quarters but that didn't quash the problems. There were men showing porn on their laptops, a few times there were fights and police involved and the drinking and puking was an issue. These 'pilgrims' were in actuality backpackers and during those couple of years this type of behavior saw all the better hostels close their doors to the dorms. Some of the different sects have guest houses and they are quite clean and quiet and affordable which is not a Jerusalem common theme but they require documents from a priest from back home etc. That's what I envisioned for such an old route but it seems to be not the case.

sorry that you are a tad disappointed,its a pity that in your home country you experienced porn,drinking and puking,however i dont think you will see much of that behaviour on the camino,, most pilgrims or hikers are polite,kind and helpful,its easy for anyone to claim they are catholic or christian ! but to behave like one is an other matter ?i hope you get to experiance this ,

 

[Dov of the Galilee]

There's been some question of what it is I'm speaking about and here is one instance- go to 17:48 to see:

Some have suggested not to get a feel for the Camino from places like YouTube but honestly I can't see why not. This fellow in the video above carried camera equipment the entire way and made a documentary from it, very insightful and there's others who have done the same.

As I started out with my first question here these videos showed but did not explain things I saw and that was quite helpful.

 

[Stephen Nicholls]

within marital closeness

Hi Dov!
There are some mixed dormitories i.e. men and women in the same ROOM. As for marital closeness, I am pleased to report that my personal experience of marital closeness is MUCH closer than you will ever find in an albergue .

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I have never found that pilgrims were particularly adolescent or prurient. Men and women seem to get along as they have for five million years. Cultures that find gender mixing off-putting may want to seek a different experience from the Camino pilgrimage!

 

[Anemone del Camino]

There's been some question of what it is I'm speaking about and here is one instance- go to 17:48 to see:

Some have suggested not to get a feel for the Camino from places like YouTube but honestly I can't see why not. This fellow in the video above carried camera equipment the entire way and made a documentary from it, very insightful and there's others who have done the same.

As I started out with my first question here these videos showed but did not explain things I saw and that was quite helpful.

You Will notice that when he shows the first albergue he jokingly calls it "albergue la sardina" Which hi ts at The fact that these are unusually close quartiers. You typically get 2-3 feet In between beds although sometimes 2 bunks ate put together and then you get 2-3 feet and another 2 bunks, etc. In smaller albergues bunks Will typically be placed along tne wall with The center of The room left empty.

 

[CaminoDebrita]

Can you just take off the gender spectacles?

I'm sure that you are going to be fine. If you don't want to sleep near a woman for fear of feeling embarrassed, titillated, or unclean, just get a far-off bunk and avert your eyes. If it's all too much for you, get a private hotel.

 

[Tincatinker]

Perhaps it is time that www.Gronze.com got their act together and started publishing the linear space between bunks as well as the total number. Come on guys we need to know!!

 

[Dov of the Galilee]

I have never found that pilgrims were particularly adolescent or prurient. Men and women seem to get along as they have for five million years. Cultures that find gender mixing off-putting may want to seek a different experience from the Camino pilgrimage!

That's an interesting reply considering the pilgrimage is Christian in nature and such arrangements are not standard in Christian living.

 

[Dov of the Galilee]

Can you just take off the gender spectacles?

I'm sure that you are going to be fine. If you don't want to sleep near a woman for fear of feeling embarrassed, titillated, or unclean, just get a far-off bunk and avert your eyes. If it's all too much for you, get a private hotel.

And for those who wish to remain segregated we should pay how many times more per day to keep honorable?

 

[Felipe]

Anyway, in intl' overnight flights, we sleep closer to other persons than in albergue bunks. I have never heard of complaints about that.
The only albergue that I remember as having an "uncomfortable bunk closeness" is Najera's municipal.
Private albergues usually are more spacey than municipal or parochial ones.
I agree that Camino is a very conventionally moral and respectful environment.
I suppose that, as the Camino becomes more cosmopolite, albergues will appear that cater to different cultures and sensibilities. For now, some "do as locals do" or spending some time making personal (and more expensive), arrangements is unavoidably.

 

[koilife]

There's been some question of what it is I'm speaking about and here is one instance- go to 17:48 to see:


Some have suggested not to get a feel for the Camino from places like YouTube but honestly I can't see why not. This fellow in the video above carried camera equipment the entire way and made a documentary from it, very insightful and there's others who have done the same.

As I started out with my first question here these videos showed but did not explain things I saw and that was quite helpful.

The albergue at that point in the film is not the norm. Only once in a total of 41 nights did I have a bed that was directly attached to another bed on one side, and I stayed in a good mix of parochial, municipal, association, and private albergues. The example in the film with multiple beds in a row with just a few inches between them is an exception. That it happens to be the only one he showed is unfortunate and misleading.

 

[koilife]

And for those who wish to remain segregated we should pay how many times more per day to keep honorable?

If by segregated you mean separate rooms with men only, in most cases your choice will need to be a hotel/hostel/casa rural/pension where you can have a private room, or one shared with another male walking companion. That will likely run you in the 25-40 euro/night range for the room.

If by segregated you mean beds that aren't side by side, you'll have few issues, and you can simply ask the hospitalero if you can look over the facilities first.

 

[Kathor1]

That's an interesting reply considering the pilgrimage is Christian in nature and such arrangements are not standard in Christian living.

The infrastructure that people on their way to Santiago use, such as roads and accommodation, is overwhelmingly secular.

The people who are on a Christian pilgrimage to Santiago share this space with people who are on a spiritual pilgrimage, or a secular pilgrimage, or no pilgrimage at all, or a pilgrimage related to a different faith than Christian. At least that's currently my understanding.

 

[koilife]

What price is honor?

I find the blatant sexism expressed in your covert implications to be offensive. Believe me, sir, we aren't all just objects of your desire and waiting--siren-like--to steer you off of your Christian course. Time to meander back to the "What is the coolest gift?" thread and give this one a rest.

I'll leave Dov to speak for himself, but I don't see this as a case of blatant sexism.

I see it as a case where there is a deep cultural difference, one that he has probably been steeped in all his life, and he's trying to figure out how to bridge the gaps without compromising his upbringing. This is likely a far deeper issue than whether fried chicken is a finger food or must be eaten with fork and knife, and I would expect him to have commensurately deeper concerns over it. To simply disregard his cultural context and shift his perspective without any real struggle would mean he had no deep roots in the first place, and that, in my opinion, would be the greater tragedy.

I suspect there will be great spiritual benefit for Dov in making the pilgrimage, but it clearly will come at a personal cost. What I see here is a man genuinely trying to get through a personal/spiritual cost-benefit analysis.

 

[Dov of the Galilee]

What price is honor?

I find the blatant sexism expressed in your covert implications to be offensive. Believe me, sir, we aren't all just objects of your desire and waiting--siren-like--to steer you off of your Christian course. Time to meander back to the "What is the coolest gift?" thread and give this one a rest.

Sexism? Where did I demonstrate that? Because being separated between the sexes is preferable? I did not demean women at all that wasn't what I stated directly or indirectly so please do either read more carefully or discharge in another direction. Those of us who have religious practices that require such observance take them seriously, I am not trying to change the world but I want to make sure that what I partake in meets my way of life. When my wife and I stay with the Benedictines they do not allow for couples to bunk together nor do some other sects I've known through Europe and the Middle East so it is with this understanding that I approach this arena with some experience. There are those of us who are not so casual in our interaction with the opposite sex and this is what I am trying to avoid by my polite questions.

 

[Dov of the Galilee]

I'll leave Dov to speak for himself, but I don't see this as a case of blatant sexism.

I see it as a case where there is a deep cultural difference, one that he has probably been steeped in all his life, and he's trying to figure out how to bridge the gaps without compromising his upbringing. This is likely a far deeper issue than whether fried chicken is a finger food or must be eaten with fork and knife, and I would expect him to have commensurately deeper concerns over it. To simply disregard his cultural context and shift his perspective without any real struggle would mean he had no deep roots in the first place, and that, in my opinion, would be the greater tragedy.

I suspect there will be great spiritual benefit for Dov in making the pilgrimage, but it clearly will come at a personal cost. What I see here is a man genuinely trying to get through a personal/spiritual cost-benefit analysis.

Humbly you are correct

 

[James R B]

Sexism? Where did I demonstrate that? Because being separated between the sexes is preferable? I did not demean women at all that wasn't what I stated directly or indirectly so please do either read more carefully or discharge in another direction. Those of us who have religious practices that require such observance take them seriously, I am not trying to change the world but I want to make sure that what I partake in meets my way of life. When my wife and I stay with the Benedictines they do not allow for couples to bunk together nor do some other sects I've known through Europe and the Middle East so it is with this understanding that I approach this arena with some experience. There are those of us who are not so casual in our interaction with the opposite sex and this is what I am trying to avoid by my polite questions.

Welcome to the 21st century.

 

[CaminoDebrita]

Sexism? Where did I demonstrate that? Because being separated between the sexes is preferable? I did not demean women at all that wasn't what I stated directly or indirectly so please do either read more carefully or discharge in another direction. Those of us who have religious practices that require such observance take them seriously, I am not trying to change the world but I want to make sure that what I partake in meets my way of life. When my wife and I stay with the Benedictines they do not allow for couples to bunk together nor do some other sects I've known through Europe and the Middle East so it is with this understanding that I approach this arena with some experience. There are those of us who are not so casual in our interaction with the opposite sex and this is what I am trying to avoid by my polite questions.

Out of respect for your concerns, I have deleted my commentary, but will add that I think that this thread has answered your concerns and questions. The women in Spain--and the many women visiting Spain--are not going away, and you are going to have to find some sort of work-around. Perhaps your wife can accompany you and your shared quarters--in a private albergue--will be more suitable.

Private albergues are typically just a bit more expensive--from 8 to 12 euros, I have found--but with fewer pilgrims, they may afford you a more private (chaste) environment.

Best of luck. I regret that you deemed my replies "discharging" but it is wearing to be constantly reminded that women (for some men, apparently) are such a threat to "honor."

It is surprising to get into one's middle years--and still be grappling with this concern, but apparently, it is really an issue for you. Good luck.

 

[Dov of the Galilee]

Out of respect for your concerns, I have deleted my commentary, but will add that I think that this thread has answered your concerns and questions. The women in Spain--and the many women visiting Spain--are not going away, and you are going to have to find some sort of work-around. Perhaps your wife can accompany you and your shared quarters--in a private albergue--will be more suitable.

Private albergues are typically just a bit more expensive--from 8 to 12 euros, I have found--but with fewer pilgrims, they may afford you a more private (chaste) environment.

Best of luck. I regret that you deemed my replies "discharging" but it is wearing to be constantly reminded that women (for some men, apparently) are such a threat to "honor."

It is surprising to get into one's middle years--and still be grappling with this concern, but apparently, it is really an issue for you. Good luck.

It has nothing to do with "grappling" of my desires or anyone's for that matter. I am a retired Federal law enforcement officer from your country and if anyone is more likely to be lecherous it is men to women than the other way around- statistically speaking. Aside from what I have retired from I am also ordained and
I have taken vows that would prohibit me from these things, I honor these vows as one should. It's interesting when snide remarks are made that this is the 21st century etc because that implies that I and people like myself are old fashioned, behind the times or worse and such people in person can take it to the physical level when they can't dominate intellectually, I have no desire for that and I'm sure most don't either.

 

[simply B]

Dov -

I understand your situation. While unfortunate that the issue can be polarizing between people of good faith and intent, it seems to be drifting in that direction.

You note that you are retired and that 2017 is your likely Camino year. It is entirely possible that some of your concerns might be alleviated by walking in early Spring or Fall.

Feel free to PM me on the topic if you wish.

B

 

[CaminoDebrita]

It has nothing to do with "grappling" of my desires or anyone's for that matter. I am a retired Federal law enforcement officer from your country and if anyone is more likely to be lecherous it is men to women than the other way around- statistically speaking. Aside from what I have retired from I am also ordained and
I have taken vows that would prohibit me from these things, I honor these vows as one should. It's interesting when snide remarks are made that this is the 21st century etc because that implies that I and people like myself are old fashioned, behind the times or worse and such people in person can take it to the physical level when they can't dominate intellectually, I have no desire for that and I'm sure most don't either.

Buen Camino, Dov.

 

[oursonpolaire]

That's an interesting reply considering the pilgrimage is Christian in nature and such arrangements are not standard in Christian living.

I have found that northern European Lutherans (the practising ones, not those who are simply card-carrying members of state churches) are rather oblivious to these matters, but this perhaps is part of the long discussion over culture and religious practice (and not only Lutherans--I once found myself in a mixed bunkroom of Antiochian Orthodox students, all behaving with great propriety, and I still dine out on the tale of finding myself in a dormitory of a dozen fetching Opus Dei students from Salamanca).

Certainly, many of those I have met on the Camino had no particular religion but sometimes found themselves acquiring spiritual and/or religious motivations along the trail. The Camino is an interesting place where there are many surprises (and in 8 Caminos I have yet to see drunkeness or inappropriate behaviour in albergues); I have seen it bring out the best in people, much to their surprise. And for many wannabee hikers, they find themselves astonished with their first opportunity for serious spiritual reflexion.

I have several times spoken with people preparing for the Camino, and I have found myself advising them to stop researching it, and to start walking it, and I wonder if that's not the best advice I can pass on to Dov. Many, if not all, fears and sources of uneasiness disappear under the pressure of trudging along for 6-8 hours a day and the comradeship of other pilgrims-- while increasing numbers on the Camino may stress this a bit, I stay optimistic. And for those who, like me, do not want company in sleeping rooms, there are alternatives available, from pensions to private rooms in albergues and the costs are more reasonable there than almost anywhere in Europe.

It will be fine, and it will all work out.

 

[trecile]

Ideally, I prefer a private room with private bath. Second choice would be a private room with shared bath. Third choice would be a dorm with women only. But I'm not in control of what lodgings are offered and how much they cost. It is what it is, and it's up to me to adapt.

 

[Tincatinker]

It is what it is, and it's up to me to adapt.

The best summary of Camino that I have seen in a while. Blessings upon you @trecile

 

[Dov of the Galilee]

Something tells me that if my concern was being vegan I wouldn't be told to adapt - give in on your convictions.

 

[LouiseEdin]

Margaret, I wish I had your aplomb, but I don't. The one time I found myself side by side with a strange man, in an albergue that was completo, I was so uncomfortable I did not even acknowledge his existence and, I'm happy to say, he afforded me the same 'courtesy.' Actually, I was generally uncomfortable sharing close quarters at the best of times, and luxuriated in the more-than-occasional private room with en suite.

Yes, if I found myself bed to bed with a man, it was never a woman, I would move my bunk by a few inches and put up a scarf as a barrier. Never had any problems but didn't want a strange man in my face

 

[trecile]

Something tells me that if my concern was being vegan I wouldn't be told to adapt - give in on your convictions.

Just as you can find private accommodation along the Camino, Vegans should be able to find vegan food. It just takes more effort and/or money.

 

[James R B]

Something tells me that if my concern was being vegan I wouldn't be told to adapt - give in on your convictions.

Do you plan on walking barefoot?

 

[Introibo]

Calmly. Dov's raised a concern that he has. Simple as that. People I've talked to have expressed surprise
that the albergues are mixed. All we need to do is assure them that it's not as big an issue as they may
be thinking.

 

[grayland]

Dov
The members here have replied with understanding of your concerns.
They have tried to relate the actual conditions encountered on the Camino.
I don't think anyone has suggested you change your convictions or concerns..just posted the actual experience of Albergue life.
Many people are not comfortable with it and elect to stay in private accommodation or rooms.
This is very easy to do.. But more expensive.

None of us can change how it is and how it has been.

 

[Dov of the Galilee]

Dov
The members here have replied with understanding of your concerns.
They have tried to relate the actual conditions encountered on the Camino.
I don't think anyone has suggested you change your convictions or concerns..just posted the actual experience of Albergue life.
Many people are not comfortable with it and elect to stay in private accommodation or rooms.
This is very easy to do.. But more expensive.

None of us can change how it is and how it has been.

Well I've seen some sincere answers which I appreciate and I've seen others which are mean spirited. Can you imagine a person like myself in the limited way I've expressed myself here among these kind souls? I've seen this type of behavior before the enlightened trying to bully the dark aged person thankfully they tend to keep their mouths closed face to face.

 

[James R B]

Well I've seen some sincere answers which I appreciate and I've seen others which are mean spirited. Can you imagine a person like myself in the limited way I've expressed myself here among these kind souls? I've seen this type of behavior before the enlightened trying to bully the dark aged person thankfully they tend to keep their mouths closed face to face.

The meek shall inherit the earth so you should be good to go.Good luck and buen Camino.

 

[november_moon]

And for those who wish to remain segregated we should pay how many times more per day to keep honorable?

It has nothing to do with having to pay more to remain honorable. It has to do with wanting to do something outside the norm of the Camino. The norm of the Camino is to sleep in shared, co-ed accommodations. For anyone who doesn't want to do that (for whatever reason - personal definition of honor, light sleeper who can't sleep through snoring, etc.) there are other options. These options do cost more money, for obvious reasons.

Something tells me that if my concern was being vegan I wouldn't be told to adapt - give in on your convictions.

No, not really. We'd tell them the same thing we are telling you - you want to do something that isn't the norm on the Camino, so you'll either have to adapt or be prepared to expend more effort and/or money to meet your need and/or wants. And I have walked with vegans who adapted - temporarily suspended their dietary restrictions so that they could at least eat some animal products to make it easier to find enough food to eat.

 

[SeaHorse]

Oh. I watched that video. The famous orgy scene at 17:48 rerun twice. Did I mis something?

 

[simply B]

Gentle, please.

The OP made a polite request and has since explained his reasons for concern. Unless I have missed something, he has been polite in his replies to posts that could be taken badly.

We may not understand his concerns but that does not make them less real.

What is really needed here is the support we have all given to each other while walking.

Kind of the 'Pilgrim Code', no?

B

 

[grayland]

Actually, the answer to the original question has been posted several times in this thread.
The OP has his answer. The people who own and operate albergues are not going to change anything.
The arrangements are what they are.

It may be important for Dov to know that there is no "they" that makes the rules for the operation of the albergues across Spain. There is no central authority to make or enforce rules or traditions.
Albergue operators make their own rules for the most part.

At any rate....there does not appear to be much more good, other than arguments and insults, to be gained in this thread.

Thanks for understanding the decision to close this thread.

 

[Albertagirl]

@SeaHorse:
I actually watched the video, looking carefully at around minute 17 for the "famous orgy scene." My personal observation, upon seeing the pilgrims happily laughing in the crowded dormitory of the albergue, was that the beds had thick mattresses and looked really comfortable, a far cry from mat to mat sleeping on the floor at Granon. It looked fine to me, although for various reasons I would prefer Granon.