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Pyrethrin or Permethrin?

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crisnelson

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hello fellow peregino/as,

I did Leon to Santiago in 2012 and I will be doing Pamplona to Burgos next month. B/f my last trip, I sprayed my clothes and equipment with _either_ pyrethrin OR permethrin [SP?] to avoid bedbugs, and it worked great. I slept in a lightly-infested albergue one night, and I was unaffected. My problem is that I can't recall which of these two substances I used! Can someone give me some guidance (and give me the correct spelling)?

Buen Camino a todo/as!
Cris Nelson
Boston MA
 
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hello fellow peregino/as,

I did Leon to Santiago in 2012 and I will be doing Pamplona to Burgos next month. B/f my last trip, I sprayed my clothes and equipment with _either_ pyrethrin OR permethrin [SP?] to avoid bedbugs, and it worked great. I slept in a lightly-infested albergue one night, and I was unaffected. My problem is that I can't recall which of these two substances I used! Can someone give me some guidance (and give me the correct spelling)?

Buen Camino a todo/as!
Cris Nelson
Boston MA
HI,

Permethrin is a medication and chemical widely used as an insecticide, acaricide, and insect repellent.
 
Pyrethrum is a natural insecticide derived from chrysanthemum flowers. Permethrin is the synthetic insecticide based on pyrethrum, but not identical to it. Here's a link that explains both.
 
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Wander on over to your lovely REI store at Landmark Center - they carry the big yellow 24oz pump spray bottles of Permethrin. :)
 
A selection of Camino Jewellery
Not available in Canada, Anemone, what did you use instead of the permethrine?
Available at Canadian tire. Also amazon.ca and your local pest control company will carry it. They are not supposed to sell it to you to spray on clothes but still will. But it comes in largish quantities, much more than you'll need to spray your sleeping bag, backpack amd contour sheet.
 
A quick follow-up to explain further, as many use this product.

There is no risk of absorption into the skin once the product initially dries and binds to the clothing fabric.

If used/applied correctly, permethrin has been shown to remain fixed to the clothing for approximately 50 washings and then becomes ineffective due to natural break down of the chemicals.

The risk exists in the initial application. Once the petroleum distillates evaporate (and the garment is dry) then the permethrin is fixed to the clothes. That chemical smell you smell when you treat your clothing is the petroleum solvents (like the stuff used in dry cleaning). The risk is from absorption through your skin / eyes / inhalation, or ingestion.

As an aside, there is one way to screw up the permethrin Individual Dynamic Absorption (IDA). One of the concepts is that the permethrin will bind to the back of the clothing fabric. Although it binds well to many fabrics, it will not bind to all clothing types correctly, which can cause problems.

As such there would be a risk if someone applied it incorrectly and/or the clothing item did not manage the chemical well. In these cases, the petroleum solvent would evaporate and the permethrin may not be totally fixed to the clothing item because of the fabric absorption qualities of the item. As such, you then put on your clothing and absorb the un-bonded permethrin. For this reason, it’s advised not to be used on next to skin items.

HTHs
 
A selection of Camino Jewellery
Not available in Canada, Anemone, what did you use instead of the permethrine?
I live in Calgary and I used a "crawling insect destroyer" called Blaze Pro, containing both Pyrethrin and Permethrin, available at my local Home Depot. I took my sleeping bag and my backpack outside and thoroughly sprayed the outsides of both then hung them to dry before bringing them in. By the next day, the smell was gone. I used the sleeping bag on the camino frances last fall, but I was very careful and as far as I know I never came across a bed bug, nor did I bring any home with me.
 
Not available in Canada, Anemone, what did you use instead of the permethrine?

I am not sure this is correct. Permethrin is used the world over in agriculture, prevention of mosquito-born disease's, for treatment of scabies (nothing else is as effective) it is the stuff clothing manufactures use (Insect Sheild) to make bug repellent clothing. Farmers use it on crops and to protect their farm animals. I purchased my own from a farm supply store, and made my own solution for spraying clothes and camping gear, for protection from ticks. It is approved by USA government and used in spraying soldiers uniforms (same for the UK military)

Janice
 
hello fellow peregino/as,

I did Leon to Santiago in 2012 and I will be doing Pamplona to Burgos next month. B/f my last trip, I sprayed my clothes and equipment with _either_ pyrethrin OR permethrin [SP?] to avoid bedbugs, and it worked great. I slept in a lightly-infested albergue one night, and I was unaffected. My problem is that I can't recall which of these two substances I used! Can someone give me some guidance (and give me the correct spelling)?

Buen Camino a todo/as!
Cris Nelson
Boston MA
Chris, I used Permetherin last year all around me people got bed bugs and I was free. I sprayed my backpack sleeping bag and also my boots and shoes I would use at night.
 
Holoholo automatically captures your footpaths, places, photos, and journals.
As an aside, there is one way to screw up the permethrin Individual Dynamic Absorption (IDA). One of the concepts is that the permethrin will bind to the back of the clothing fabric. Although it binds well to many fabrics, it will not bind to all clothing types correctly, which can cause problems.

As such there would be a risk if someone applied it incorrectly and/or the clothing item did not manage the chemical well. In these cases, the petroleum solvent would evaporate and the permethrin may not be totally fixed to the clothing item because of the fabric absorption qualities of the item. As such, you then put on your clothing and absorb the un-bonded permethrin. For this reason, it’s advised not to be used on next to skin items.
I am not sure about this explanation. The issue that I have heard about is that the IDA kit is not used properly, the application is uneven or inconsistent, and does not provide the anticipated level of protection. My understanding is that permethrin is not permanently bonded in any case, and will be removed from the clothing by repeated laundry cycles.
The reason it is safe to use is that, as a compound, the absorption through the skin is so slight - that has nothing to do with whether it is on clothing or otherwise.

Most sprays and other applications in the civilian world do not have the relatively high percentage of aromatic petroleum solvent of the IDA kit. I did a quick check of a couple of Sawyers MSDS, and the IDA kit is nearly 50% aromatic petroleum solvent and 40% permetrin. This compares to 0.5% permethrin and 1.0% xylene for the spray pack products.
 
A quick follow-up to explain further, as many use this product.

There is no risk of absorption into the skin once the product initially dries and binds to the clothing fabric.

If used/applied correctly, permethrin has been shown to remain fixed to the clothing for approximately 50 washings and then becomes ineffective due to natural break down of the chemicals.

The risk exists in the initial application. Once the petroleum distillates evaporate (and the garment is dry) then the permethrin is fixed to the clothes. That chemical smell you smell when you treat your clothing is the petroleum solvents (like the stuff used in dry cleaning). The risk is from absorption through your skin / eyes / inhalation, or ingestion.

As an aside, there is one way to screw up the permethrin Individual Dynamic Absorption (IDA). One of the concepts is that the permethrin will bind to the back of the clothing fabric. Although it binds well to many fabrics, it will not bind to all clothing types correctly, which can cause problems.

As such there would be a risk if someone applied it incorrectly and/or the clothing item did not manage the chemical well. In these cases, the petroleum solvent would evaporate and the permethrin may not be totally fixed to the clothing item because of the fabric absorption qualities of the item. As such, you then put on your clothing and absorb the un-bonded permethrin. For this reason, it’s advised not to be used on next to skin items.

HTHs

Hi,

You seem to be describing a home-made spray to apply to clothing? The commercial product Sawyer Permethrin Clothing Insect Repellent Spray, does not to my understanding contain any petroleum products, or toxic chemicals such as Piperonyl Butoxide(PBO) , which may be present in agricultural permethrin sprays. These agricultural products, when used for livestock use petroleum to help it adhere to livestock skin/fur. These would stain clothing. If you want to make your own spray, and do not want to buy a commercial product such as Sawyer which cost 3 times what you could make it for yourself, then use a product such as this one:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001MA7KPU/?tag=casaivar02-20

It claims to be EPA registered, as I'm sure that Sawyer is also. I am not knocking Sawyer - they are a good company, and make excellent products. I use permethrin a lot, as I hike and camp quite a bit in deer tick infested area's. There is lots of tutorials and info on the internet for making this solution, you just have to be selective and get good info. I imagine with the Zika virus epidemic we will be seeing a lot more of permethrin, and I believe it is safe from research I have done. The research I saw claims that permethrin is NOT absorbed into skin as you suggest, it is not applied to skin because contact inactivates the insecticidal properties of permethrin. Honestly people should be more concerned with Teflon (PFOA) which have contaminated water supplies all over the world!

Janice

 
I have little understanding of the application in the civilian sector, as we (military) dip our uniforms, vice spray. However, it is my understanding that it is bonded when dried to the material. This is one of the reasons it is effective for so long. The concern was, is that all materials/fabrics are not equal and absorb and retain differently. Again, one of the reasons we do not apply to next of skin articles. During one of our pre-deployment briefings we were told that one of the only ways (other then time/washing's) to break the chemical process down, was through dry-cleaning (i.e. another chemical bath).

As for absorption; it is my understanding that less than 1% of the permethrin will enter through the skin, when applied and bonded to the material correctly; which is easily acceptable. Other than that, I do not know the ratios.

Perhaps someone with a better understanding can provide some insight.
 
A selection of Camino Jewellery
If you want to use permethrin on camino, forget your clothes - I dont think this is necessary to do, IMO - just spray backpack and outside of sleeping bag. Look for tell-tale signs of bed bug infestation around bunk bed, and if you see signs, dont sleep there. I sprayed everything on my 1st camino, and this may be overkill, but I was dipping clothes and spraying gear anyway, because that is what I use. If you can get permethrin from Sawyer, just use that. Otherwise buy a commercial product, but be sure the only active ingredient is permethrin. These are usually 10% solutions, which you would then dilute down to 0.5% solution and use as a dip or spray. If just using on sleeping bag and backpack, spray it on, if on clothes dip it, wring out, and line dry or lay flat. Read all instructions - it is toxic to cats when wet, and toxic to fish and aquatic life. Dispose of according to instructions, but if you use dip method, make a big batch of solution and save in gallon jug for next dip.

Janice
 
I gave my sleeping bag, the liner and my backpacks/panniers a really good spraying (with the Permethrin); then left them to air dry for about 24-48 hours. Also I was extra careful when staying at any "donativo" albergues. The results - no bed bugs.
Note of caution - when you get home either leave your sleeping bag and liner in a large black garbage bag in the hot sun for a few days or into the freezer again for a day or two this ensure the little blighters are not permitted to go in living or breeding. Good luck.:)
 
I gave my sleeping bag, the liner and my backpacks/panniers a really good spraying (with the Permethrin); then left them to air dry for about 24-48 hours. Also I was extra careful when staying at any "donativo" albergues. The results - no bed bugs.
Note of caution - when you get home either leave your sleeping bag and liner in a large black garbage bag in the hot sun for a few days or into the freezer again for a day or two this ensure the little blighters are not permitted to go in living or breeding. Good luck.:)
@Saint Mike II , only a couple of days in the freezer? I thought I had heard it was 3 weeks.
 
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The following excerpt is from the Science News Magazine, in regards to bed bugs:

“Items suspected of infestation should be bagged before placement in the freezer to prevent bedbugs from exiting the items and perishing elsewhere inside the freezer. Bagging an item before placing it in a freezer will also protect it against changes in condensation or damage caused by moisture. Infested items should be placed in the freezer at-17.8° C (0° F) for a minimum of 3.5 [days], though time may be decreased to 48 [hours] if temperatures average below-20° C.”
 
Here is an earth friendly option to permethrin (chemicals you plan to sleep with):

A homemade Bedbug Spray Recipe using Essential Oils

Ingredients:
· Choose from Citronella, Clove, Lemongrass, Rosemary, Tea Tree, Cajeput, Eucalyptus, Cinnamon, Cedar, Catnip, Lavender and Mint
· Natural Witch Hazel
· Distilled or boiled Water

Instructions:
· Fill an 8-ounce spray bottle half full with distilled or boiled water
· Add witch hazel to fill almost to the top
· Add 30-50 drops of essential oils to desired scent. The more oils you use, the stronger the spray will be.

A common mix is Rosemary, Clove, Cajeput, Lavender, Cinnamon and Eucalyptus. Play around with the oils to find a scent you like. Then treat your sleeping bag and backpack with the spray.

Buen (bug-free) Camino
 
Here is an earth friendly option to permethrin (chemicals you plan to sleep with):

A homemade Bedbug Spray Recipe using Essential Oils

Ingredients:
· Choose from Citronella, Clove, Lemongrass, Rosemary, Tea Tree, Cajeput, Eucalyptus, Cinnamon, Cedar, Catnip, Lavender and Mint
· Natural Witch Hazel
· Distilled or boiled Water

Instructions:
· Fill an 8-ounce spray bottle half full with distilled or boiled water
· Add witch hazel to fill almost to the top
· Add 30-50 drops of essential oils to desired scent. The more oils you use, the stronger the spray will be.

A common mix is Rosemary, Clove, Cajeput, Lavender, Cinnamon and Eucalyptus. Play around with the oils to find a scent you like. Then treat your sleeping bag and backpack with the spray.

Buen (bug-free) Camino
Is there any evidence that this recipe works as either a repellent or an insecticide? Is it possible that there were no bed-bugs to repel or kill, and your camino would have been bed-bug free without this?
 
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This is an older article (2007) on Permethrin, but it was an interesting read: http://endocrinedisruption.org/pesticides/permethrin/citizens-guide

I’m not a fan of using any chemicals, based off my years of being exposed to far too many such products. I realise that many studies say otherwise, but to me scientific studies tend to go in the direction of who’s paying for them and their interest; one only needs to look at the pharmaceutical companies in this regard.

In the military we were doused in all sorts of (so-called safe) products and still are; in this regard, perhaps we are over exposed compared to the average civilian trekker.

In my latter years of service, many of my friends and I started showing signs of the impact of exposure to our bodies, although the government would never recognise these health concerns. Agent Orange and Purple, depleted uranium from munitions in Bosnia, to Gulf War Syndrome, etc (not implying these are on the same level as Permethrin).
… As an example, my White Blood Cell (WBC) Count, is currently in the 2.0 +/- range and dips down into the 1.0 range several times a year (No cancer detected). In essence my immune system is shot. The normal range is 4.0 +.

So you can see why I’m a tad leery of using any man made chemical products, regardless of studies from, government or other agencies.

On the Camino and/or elsewhere, I adopt a bedbug routine as others have suggested. Upon arrival, I immediately check key hiding spots, and if I see any signs, I simply move on.

Each of us, need to weigh the pros and cons and use what is a best practice approach for our own needs.

Regardless, be safe and always enjoy the little moments and adventures in life.

Cheers,
Dave
 
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Is there any evidence that this recipe works as either a repellent or an insecticide? Is it possible that there were no bed-bugs to repel or kill, and your camino would have been bed-bug free without this?
Anything is possible Doug. It's possible I just set the right intention and God was on my side. However, I've used these natural and commercially available concoctions for years now, in many a bug invested local, always with good results. I judge by results--and don't sleep with chemicals. Now I make my own blend (my wife and daughter are heavily into essential oils, which is all the natural mixes were that I was purchasing in the past). Same results, though with less trials thus far.

Cheers.
 
I realise that many studies say otherwise, but to me scientific studies tend to go in the direction of who’s paying for them and their interest; one only needs to look at the pharmaceutical companies in this regard.
Follow the money.
 
Ideal sleeping bag liner whether we want to add a thermal plus to our bag, or if we want to use it alone to sleep in shelters or hostels. Thanks to its mummy shape, it adapts perfectly to our body.

€46,-
I ... don't sleep with chemicals.
Well, I would take the view that you do sleep with chemicals, and you are prepared to sleep with chemicals that have not undergone the same level of testing for their effectiveness and safety as other products that have proven to be more effective, such as pyrethrum and permethrin.
 
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Well, I would take the view that you do sleep with chemicals, and you are prepared to sleep with chemicals that have not undergone the same level of testing for their effectiveness and safety as other products that have proven to be more effective, such as pyrethrim and permethrin.
I suppose it's a matter of perspective. But, I don't think oil squeezed out of a lavender plant to be a chemical. That's like saying extra virgin olive oil is a chemical.
 
The 2024 Camino guides will be coming out little by little. Here is a collection of the ones that are out so far.
As a precaution, permethrin should not be applied on Next to skin items. We use it in the military prior to deployments, but only on outerwear and not T-shirts, underwear or Hats.
I guess it depends on the concentration, as both permethrin and pyrethrin are used for head lice treatment.
 
I guess it depends on the concentration, as both permethrin and pyrethrin are used for head lice treatment.

The product and application is different. Permethrin cream is only 5% with additives (1-part Permethrin to 3-parts additives), and studies suggest that only 2% is actually effectively applied to the scalp, absorbed, then rinsed away. In clinical trials, approximately 75% of patients treated with Permethrin cream, 5%, continued to manifest pruritus (severe itching of the skin) at 2 weeks and had cessation by 4 weeks.

Clothing Dips with Permethrin, which is what I’ve been discussing, are around the 36.8 percentile mark, or greater. Big difference in concentration levels, and no additives to reduce associated skin contact and adverse reactions as in the cream.

If you have head lice, then I would probably use this product; that doesn’t mean its safe – just effective.

To use an extreme example; chemotherapy is used to treat cancer – is it safe – not at all – just relatively effective.

Everyone makes their own decision, for the products they wish to use. The concern is, not everyone applies a product in a safe manner, or for the right reasons.

So with that, my end of this discussion is closed.

Cheers,

Addition:

I’ve just reviewed a document from the EPA site, which may be of further interest.

United States Prevention, Pesticides EPA 738-F-09-001 Environmental Protection and Toxic Substances August 2009 Agency - Permethrin Facts:

“EPA estimates that the permethrin exposure a patient is expected to receive from a typical single application of a 1% and 5% permethrin pharmaceutical cream, respectively, is 450 to 2300 times greater than the combined exposure from the dietary and other non-occupational sources of permethrin.”

Yet it's still considered at an acceptable safe level. Hmmm...

Some additional information:

EPA Sites states “Permethrin repellent products used for factory-treatment of clothing or as spray-ons for clothing are not to be applied to certain clothing such as underwear. For this reason, the label instructs consumers to wash permethrin-treated clothing separately from non-treated clothing”

EPA, also states the use and safety of Permethrin is currently under review and a report scheduled for release in 2017. The EPA has also stated the following – “Permethrin is Likely to Cause Cancer according to the EPA”

EU: Permethrin (CAS No. 52645-53-1) is not authorised for use in plant protection products in the EU where its agricultural use has been banned under Directive 91/414/EEC since 2003.

In Ontario (Canada): The ban on certain pesticides “Permethrin”. The provincial Ministry of Environment studied pesticide concentrations in ten urban streams before and after their ban came into effect (2008 vs. 2009) and compared the findings. The study’s author states:.. In fact, in some streams pesticide concentrations were up to 97% lower.”

Article on Pyrethroids (2009): Not as safe as you think

Permethrin is a synthetic pyrethrin (C21H20Cl2O3). In other words, it is a man-made poison that is a copy of two poisons found in plants.

While pyrethroids may be amongst the least toxic of insecticides, they are an excitatory nerve poison, acting upon the sodium ion channels in nerve cell membranes: by sending a train of impulses rather than a single one, they overload the pathways, blocking the passage of sodium ions across cell membranes; similar in action to organophosphates (which include the now banned DDT); inhibits ATPase, which affects the release of acetylcholine, monoamine oxidase-A and acetylcholine; inhibits GABAa receptors, resulting in convulsions and excitability (and more 'minor' problems such as sleep disorders);

known to be carcinogenic;
liver damage
thyroid function
cause chromosomal abnormalities in mice and hamsters;
are highly toxic to insects, fish, and birds;

mimic estrogen, leading to estrogen dominant health problems in females and feminizing effects in males, including lowered sperm counts and abnormal breast development;

sub lethal doses have produced a wide array of abnormal behaviors, including aggression, and disruption in learning and learned behaviors
 
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Ideal sleeping bag liner whether we want to add a thermal plus to our bag, or if we want to use it alone to sleep in shelters or hostels. Thanks to its mummy shape, it adapts perfectly to our body.

€46,-
So with that, my end of this discussion is closed.
Many of the things @DavidsRetired points to are perfectly correct, but I think it is important to understand that they are true in the context of occupational use of permethrin as a pesticide. This is a quite different circumstance to using treated equipment or clothing. In another thread, I noted that to achieve the LD50 of the Sawyers spray you needed to consume five kg of it. I said then:
It seems to me that regular exposure to permethrin and other insecticides in an agricultural setting is likely to be quite different to the sorts of exposure to consumer permethrin based products on the camino. I am not suggesting that one should ignore taking precautions when applying this product. Follow the directions, take care disposing of any waste and clean up properly. But the evidence that I have seen does not suggest to me that one should stop using it as part of other arrangements to prevent bed-bug bites.

and elsewhere in that thread, I also noted:
Treating outerwear is generally not a problem, but I would ask why if your concern is bedbugs. Unless you plan to wear your outerwear while sleeping, treatment won't protect you from them.

And I am not going to suggest this is my last word on the subject:), but it is enough for me for now. I will leave the field for the scaremongers and conspiracy theorists.
 
Our favourite clothes are getting a permethrin treatment this year :(. Our feeling is that we will not be buying them as we would expect to wear the shirts and trousers next to the skin. Thankfully we have bought last year's version in the sale so are not in need at present. The shop said that 'Insectguard' will be added to a greater range of their clothing, including a new range of socks. If you don't like the idea of permethrin in your clothes do check all details before ordering especially on-line. Other makers may be doing the same - at least Rohan have a clear statement as to what is in each garment and also you can search by 'collections' one of which is 'Anti Insect clothing'
 
I’m new to this forum, and just browsing around. I should probably not alienate myself so soon, but I just can’t resist a comment on this subject. I spent over 30-years in the pharmaceutical / biotech industry and recently retired. No offence, but we love and depend on people who gather all the clinical reports and MSDS sheets, then spread the good gospel. Here’s an insider tip: we pay good money for those reports. To be fair, most of them are correct; they just leave some of the facts out. Tip 2, live natural, live long.
 
The 2024 Camino guides will be coming out little by little. Here is a collection of the ones that are out so far.
There are lots of comments in this thread that are misleading and NOT factual as it pertains to treating clothes with permethrin (Sawyer spray), DYI spray for clothing or buying clothes factory impregnated with Insect Shield. Factory treated clothing and Sawyer spray use a concentration of 0.5%, and cannot be compared to agricultural, pharmaceutical and insect control (i.e mosquito control). These are regulated differently, and used in concentration higher than 0.5%.
Sawyer spray, and Insect Sheild are EPA registered - this means that these companies have spent millions of dollars to present research about efficacy and safety to the EPA.
Pyrethrin and Permethrin are not the same product's, they are both derived from pyrethroid family of synthetic insecticides. Permethrin is, as far as I know, the only product used for treating clothes, as it has better safety record.
Especially when talking about disease prevention and mosquito born disease's such as Malaria, Dengue fever etc, permethrin treated nets save lives! Permethrin treated clothes offer very good protection against Lyme disease - believe me, you do not want to contract Lyme disease!
The USA military, UK military, German army, Canadian military (needs documentation for Canada) use permethrin spray for soldiers uniform.
The Center for Disease Control (CDC), EPA, National Institute for Occupational Health and Safety, The American Academy of Family Physicians, The Public Health Agency of Canada and The World Health Organization (WHO) all recommend permethrin treated clothing.
Not correct that EU has bans on permethrin treated apparel, according to Insect Shield website many countries including EU have registered for this product.

http://www.insectshield.com/ourTechnology/FAQs.aspx

More info from Insect Sheild company

http://www.insectshield.com/AboutUs/CompanyBackground.aspx

Interestingly, Canada does not permit registration of companies such as Insect Sheild, but they do recommend permethrin treated clothing for travelers abroad where malaria may be encountered.

http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/ccdr-rmtc/09vol35/35s1/page3-eng.php

As far as I know permethrin is the first-line treatment for Scabies, I would be interested to know from Canadians, what exactly is used to treat scabies, if not permethrin, it is probably less safer insecticide from 1960 - 1970's?

Another Canadian web site discussing why permethrin is not available in this country

http://www.noticks.ca/

A lot of discussion about permethrin, and NONE really address whether permethrin is effective against bed bugs! Which lead's to another question. What exactly do host's on El Camnio use, when bed bugs are present? Is it pyrethrin? One suggestion I saw on this forum was to place the 4 legs of a bunk bed under a plastic lid with insecticide. Another thought for protection.

Can bed bugs kill you, or transmit disease ? - No! They can wreak your walk if you encounter them, or cause lots of stress in the pre-walk planning. I honestly thought I might not do camino after reading stuff about bed bugs, but felt perfectly comfortable and safe using permethrin. I had already started using permethrin anyway for hiking, camping and protection especially from deer ticks and Lyme disease. I take safety, environmental impact seriously , and will continue to use permethrin on my 2nd camino.

Good Night and don't let the bed bugs bite!

Janice
 
[QUOTE="... these companies have spent millions of dollars to present research about efficacy and safety to the EPA. Janice[/QUOTE]

It seems I’ve jumped into a hornet’s nest, as I see the ever diligent have gathered their data. Perhaps, I’ll limit myself to browsing and gathering info for my own Camino; the safer road less traveled. Before I wander off, I’ll mention that I had a poster on my office wall for years, which read; Focus on the gullible - They're Smarter and More Intelligent! But Janice you are right in your one comment quoted above; they do spend millions of dollars; perhaps not the way you think though! A final quote from my old PR dept.: “Trust me, Wilbur. People are very gullible. They'll believe anything they see in print.”
 
Yes @Wayne Fenton, do your own research and weigh risk/benefit. Not suggesting otherwise, nor implying that permethrin is risk-free. But then nothing in life is risk-free, that is the nature of the world in which we live. And, I would suggest, there is no such thing as a "natural life". Unless maybe, you grow your own organic food, using water that is not contaminated, build your own shelter, with materials that you not contain harmful chemicals (natural or synthetic), raise your own sheep so you can produce organic yarn with which to make your own clothing, grow cotton crops and sew your own organic cotton clothing...................
EPA and other regulatory institutions are not the ultimate authority on any product's they regulate - but they are the government agencies they we use.
Nor do I believe that all corporations act in ethical ways. I live in the state of Delaware, home of the DuPont Co., which is right now undergoing multi-billion dollar lawsuits regarding their product Teflon (C8) Interesting that in the recent merger of DuPont and Dow, that the DuPont secction for their harmful products, will stay as a separate company - I believe, this is attempt to mitigate the law suits awaiting them.
Meanwhile, I will keep my rain gear, my Gortex jacket, my non-stick cookware, my multiple tents and shelters, back pack, my permethrin-treated clothes, and just cross my fingers!

Janice
 
The 2024 Camino guides will be coming out little by little. Here is a collection of the ones that are out so far.
Was watching Shark Tank last night. A company called Wondercide was pitching. They claim to have an all natural bedbug product, and claim to have all sorts of studies to prove their products work. Perhaps a brave soul on this forum will want to test the prodct for us and report back? Oh, and they only sell that prodct by the gallon: clearly they have not heard of the Camino yet and have not discovered us as a new market to tap into ;).
 
Pyrethrum is not a synthetic when it is naturally produced, as it is here in Australia, from tanacetum cinerariaefolium, chrysanthenum like flowers. It breaks down in heat, which is why it is not as useful as permethrin. It is just as safe as permethrin when used in the correct concentration and not mixed with other chemicals. The difficulty is that usually piperonyl butoxide is used as a synergist (sonething that adds to pyrethrum's effectiveness) and not many of us are keen on petroleum being sprayed around.

I read sonewhere that Tasmania (which they tell me is part of Australia) is the world's largest producer of naturally derived pyrethrum.
 
@Kanga, Pyrethrum is a natural product, but as far as I can see this is not used to treat clothing, nor does it appear to be as safe as permethrin The level of toxicity seems to be higher with pyrethrum, than it is with permathrin, and I can not find any reference to pyrethrum for use on clothing. So, maybe this product is used more as agricultural insecticide or insecticide control? The reason permethrin is used in clothing is that it does adhere to most? all? fabrics, does not require additives such as petroleum to be effective, and has low absorption rate into skin. Permethrin aslo will degrade over time with sun exposure, oxygen and washings, but not as quickly as pyrethrum.
I will continue to use either Sawyer, or if I am feeling cheap (because I have spent too much money on Camino gear!) I will buy EPA registered permethrin concentrate and make my own dip/spray.

Janice
 
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Pyrethrum is not used on clothing because it is quickly degradable and breaks down easily in heat, or even light. So not much use for clothes. It is considered the safest insecticide to use around food.

It is the main ingredient used in Clako, the bedbug spray sold in France.
 
I gave my sleeping bag, the liner and my backpacks/panniers a really good spraying (with the Permethrin); then left them to air dry for about 24-48 hours. Also I was extra careful when staying at any "donativo" albergues. The results - no bed bugs.
Note of caution - when you get home either leave your sleeping bag and liner in a large black garbage bag in the hot sun for a few days or into the freezer again for a day or two this ensure the little blighters are not permitted to go in living or breeding. Good luck.:)
Saint Mike, I too live in Australia and can't find a local product with Permethrin as the active ingredient. As bed bugs is a concern for this firt-timer on the Camino Frances, where did you obtain your product? Thanks for the advice. Garry.
 
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Saint Mike, I too live in Australia and can't find a local product with Permethrin as the active ingredient. As bed bugs is a concern for this firt-timer on the Camino Frances, where did you obtain your product? Thanks for the advice. Garry.
I will have to ask Jenny where she bought it! Will get back to you. Cheers!
 
Janice, in fact I do maintain my own garden, and any of those dirty dozen vegetables and fruits, which we are unable to grow, we buy organic. Perhaps by crossing your fingers on one hand, while dousing your belongings with the other, eases your mind, but it’s not a very viable approach in my books.
As I’ve taken the time to scour through this forum, I’m shocked to see so many, who seem terrified of bed bugs, and willing to go to any lengths. Some spray their sleeping bag liners??? They spray all their cloths??? This is shocking to me. Backpacks, I can understand, but it seems the fear is so great, that people feel the need to go to the extreme. I’m beginning to wonder, if the few on this forum don’t feed the masses in this regard, and do so with little to no real knowledge themselves. I find that to be a rather carless approach and worrisome to say the least. And the argument that the militaries around the world use it safely, so why shouldn’t we, is absurd. Their needs are far different and not from a point of personnel safety, but operational commitments. Do you ever question the use of harsh/poisonous chemicals, used in insecticides? The poison is there for a reason – it kills! Yet if we dilute it, slap a label on, we now consider it safe for the public. Do you honestly believe that money is not the driving factor in this and that your best interest is considered?
Can you use these products in a limited fashion – certainly. Should you use them on an extended basis – you’d undoubtedly want a good reason to do so. The impact of extended use is real. Weigh your odds carefully, would be my recommendation.
The current study on these products is being driven by the health industry, and with good cause. From the other side of the argument, is what else can we use – meaning, we are still making money, so why stop. Current drafts of the study are suggesting that these products be banned from public use. From an industry perspective, it’s a cost value focus (how much do we wish to spend to keep the gravy train going), or move on to the next product and sell current held stock to the 3rd world to capitalize on our gain. Perhaps the driving forces within this forum, should look at why people are so scared of bed bugs and how best to address any fears to a more practical level.
As to my value in this forum, I think we are at odds and come from different places. Too many self-made experts, voicing opinions formed without adequate knowledge and understanding. I spent my life around such people. I’ll stick to my office quote: Focus on the gullible - They're Smarter and More Intelligent!
I think walking the Camino with fresh eyes and without input from this forum may be just what’s needed. And with that, I’ll bid you all adieu.

DavidsRetired – Canada, where is that exactly? Lol (for peace of mind, you are more right then wrong on this topic. I’m also sorry to read about your WBC. Send me a message, and I’ll provide some info which may help you with your VA. Semper fidelis!)
 
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3rd Edition. More content, training & pack guides avoid common mistakes, bed bugs etc
Pharmboy, how great that you are so much more knowledgeable than: The Center for Disease Control (CDC), EPA, National Institute for Occupational Health and Safety, The American Academy of Family Physicians, The Public Health Agency of Canada and The World Health Organization (WHO) who all recommend permethrin treated clothing. Not to mention countless other countries around the world who use permethrin treated clothing to ward off disease. Have you ever had Lyme disease? I have! Did you ever see a woman die with terminal scabies and secondary sepsis? I have. Do you know where malaria, dengue fever etc is rampant, lives are saved due to permethrin treated netting, and other mosquito controlled methods? Granted bed bugs may, or may not, be a serious problem on the Camino, but I will be spraying my back pack, and sleeping bag. My walking clothes - they are all treated anyway to guard against Lyme disease.
Janice
 
I don’t wish to seem cold, but don’t presume to have a corner on hardships. I’ve had an extensive life, but not about to compare challenges or tragedies with you. Furthermore, I never said I was more intelligent, just more knowledgeable in this regard, as an insider. Lastly, and rather sadly, you’ve missed the entire point! Which demonstrates once again, that intellect is not wisdom. I’ll not be returning to this forum. You can clap now!
 
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