Should they make an alternate route after Portomarin

[isawtman]

There are already several alternative routes on the Camino Frances,
but perhaps the place they could use one the most doesn't have one.
I think the people of Galicia should consider creating an alternative route
after Portomarin. Perhaps having the alternative go through Monterroso.
The reason the variant has to be after Portomarin is that bridges over
the River Mino are few and far between.

 

[dougfitz]

I think the people of Galicia should consider creating an alternative route
after Portomarin.

Do you know of any possible routes that might have a solid historical foundation to justify bringing them back into existence as a set of modern complementary routes? Others might have a view on this, but I recall some sections of the CF that appeared to have been rerouted, more so within towns than in the countryside, to suit the commercial interests of one or another group or person. That wasn't particularly popular then, but what you appear to be proposing appears to be on a different scale to a couple of albergue or bar owners doing a little creative repainting.

I see somewhat similar issues along parts of the CP route. On that, there might be mixed purposes in doing some of this. There is one place where the route now passes a particular albergue, but it has to be said it was probably also the only reasonable way of getting pilgrims off a section of the N-550.

Creating a complementary section of a route happens in several places along the CP, with the plethora of routes north of Porto that appear to have grown in popularity over the years. I recently walked the Variente Espiritual, fairly clearly the work of the local councils as a 'tourist' attraction rather than being based on any historical justification as an older pilgrimage route. It's not that its devoid of sites of historical significance, but rather that this is not a route likely to have been walked by pilgrims in earlier times.

My final observation is that 'the people of Galicia' might be a difficult thing to pin down when it comes to coordinated action on something like this. Do you mean the Xunta, some group of councils, or individual businesses or other groups? I personally think it is more likely that the growth of numbers will see local entrepreneurs respond by providing more accommodation along the existing routes. This has been happening, and will continue to happen. I first walked in 2010, when about 270 thousand pilgrims walked. It was a massive increase over the previous year, and required extensive additional support at the time. When I walked again in 2016, the numbers had grown back to that level, and businesses and governments had responded. There were more places to eat, stay, etc.

Perhaps I am too conservative on this. I don't see creating another route as necessarily the best solution. But, if some group of local councils get motivated to work together, as they appear to have done to create the Variente Espiritual, something might happen to complement the growth needed along the more traditional parts of the CF route.

Edit: as a postscript, I also find proposals that are inherently along the lines 'someone (else) should do something about this' where the someone else is also some amorphous entity, inherently unattractive. In my view, it goes into the same bucket of ideas as deploying portaloos along the Meseta.

 

[isawtman]

Well, I've helped build over 10 miles of National Scenic Trail here in Wisconsin,
So, I have answered the bell. I don't personally live in Spain, so it's just a
suggestion and totally up to the people of Galicia. I believe in the power of
suggestions and some of my suggestions have become reality.

And I'm not too worried about the historical aspect of it. I expect that with
the millions of people that have hiked the Camino over the years, that at
some point in history some pilgrim veered down to Montorosso
just to visit their aunty. That's good enough for me.

I'm just trying to make the Camino more enjoyable to more people. Perhaps
there could be a rule that school groups have to stay on the main Camino.

 

[C clearly]

the place they could use one the most doesn't have one.

I am curious what your reason is - i.e. why does this section need a new route?

 

[Kathor1]

And I'm not too worried about the historical aspect of it.

I’m sure that your ideas have great value, especially given your experience with building over 10 miles of National Scenic Trail in Wisconsin. It made me giggle a bit, though. The Camino de Santiago, nowadays commonly known as Camino Francés, is something quite unique and that has to do with its historic/historical significance. Goes back to the Middle Ages. Has to do with what is still left from that time.

The majority of Camino walkers see it as a narrow trail marked by yellow arrows and by the well-known “mojones” waymarkers in Galicia. It is actually defined as a broader corridor that is under legal protection. Google Delimitación del Camino Francés or similar for maps and historical justification and medieval sources for it.

I am aware that the cultural-historical significance of the Camino de Santiago is lost on many Camino walkers. Of course you can walk any way you want to Santiago. Nothing and nobody stops you. You can even think that some pilgrims at some point in time walked where you are putting your trail shoes. You don’t need yellow arrow and shells expressed visually in whatever artistic form or material for this. I am living proof that it can be done and so are others . So I am not sure what you are getting at.

I guess this is a variation of a known theme: There are too many people on the Camino Francés from Sarría onwards for my taste and when I decide to walk and they are the wrong kind?

 

[Pilgrim9]

There are already several alternative routes on the Camino Frances,
but perhaps the place they could use one the most doesn't have one.
I think the people of Galicia should consider creating an alternative route
after Portomarin. Perhaps having the alternative go through Monterroso.
The reason the variant has to be after Portomarin is that bridges over
the River Mino are few and far between.

It is an interesting idea and IMO worth pursuing a bit further, at least as a thought exercise.

Those who would aspire to earn a compostela after walking a new route would be wise to note that this webpage:

The Credencial: Pilgrim’s Reception Office

The official Credencial of the Pilgrim’s Office

oficinadelperegrino.com

states: "The last 100 km must be done by any of the routes recognized as official by the S. A. M. I. Cathedral of Santiago."

I understand that the Camino de Invierno:

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/forums/camino-de-invierno-from-ponferrada.79/

passes to the south of Monterosso. That might or might not be relevant.

 

[Bob Howard]

Perhaps I am too conservative on this. I don't see creating another route as necessarily the best solution. But, if some group of local councils get motivated to work together, as they appear to have done to create the Variente Espiritual, something might happen to complement the growth needed along the more traditional parts of the CF route.

As usual, dougfiz presents a logical and articulate response. I am reminded of New Coke--a solution in search of a problem.

 

[OZAJ]

Are there reasons for a pilgrimage route being where it is?
What are these reasons?
Are these reasons important?
If they are important, then does changing the route diminish the pilgrimage in some way?
Of course, if this is not a pilgrimage, it doesn't matter.
What do you want?
How do you benefit from the pilgrimage, if it is not a pilgrimage?

 

[Kathor1]

Let us not muddy the waters so early in the thread.

The Camino de Santiago aka Camino Francés is a pilgrimage route of massive cultural as well as historic and historical importance and value - a tremendous asset, especially to Galicia, both to her government and to her people, and nowadays also to her education system and the curriculum at secondary school level.

It is just there - or rather it has been found again because there were enough physical and documentary traces of it left. It does not care what we do on it and how we walk it and what our intentions are. It just is.

 

[Roland49]

As far as I read about, if routes were altered, they try to dig deep for historical possibilities of middle age pilgrims walking that part of the way.
Many historical documents refer to towns and hamlets that were renamed or given up.
Commercial Interests may be considered, but it is a historical (christian) pilgrimage, that you have to keep in mind.

 

[isawtman]

I am curious what your reason is - i.e. why does this section need a new route?

Isn't it obvious. Lot's of people have been complaining that section is too crowded.
Providing a less traveled and more peaceful route will appeal to a lot of people

 

[isawtman]

I guess the question should be, if there is a less traveled and more peaceful route through
Galicia, would you take it? If you are hiking the Camino Frances a second time
would you like to take a slightly different route? I believe that any town that is somewhat
close to the main camino has a history of pilgrims hiking through their town. In fact, it has
been fairly recently that the camino as we know is has been defined.

 

[Bradypus]

Isn't it obvious. Lot's of people have been complaining that section is too crowded.
Providing a less traveled and more peaceful route will appeal to a lot of people

There is already the option of branching off the Frances on to the Invierno at Ponferrada. Or perhaps those who prefer a less travelled route should simply disregard the Compostela rules and make their way to Santiago by whatever route they like. Is it worth sticking with a path you find unpleasant just for that piece of paper? I use the waymarked Caminos for convenience - I do not feel obliged to stick to them and I no longer ask for a Compostela on arrival in Santiago.

 

[Ianinam]

It has been a pilgrimage route since 1000+ years ...
And who is supposed to be the 'they' that should make an alternate route?

 

[isawtman]

There is already the option of branching off the Frances on to the Invierno at Ponferrada. Or perhaps those who prefer a less travelled route should simply disregard the Compostela rules and make their way to Santiago by whatever route they like. Is it worth sticking with a path you find unpleasant just for that piece of paper? I use the waymarked Caminos for convenience - I do not feel obliged to stick to them and I no longer ask for a Compostela on arrival in Santiago.

yeah, I already know about the Inveirno. It's 3 days longer than the Frances.
I'm talking about an option that is maybe a half day longer than the Frances, at most.
So, since you have veered off the main camino, what routes do you like?

 

[VNwalking]

Providing a less traveled and more peaceful route will appeal to a lot of people

There are already a number of these, all official routes. Examples are the Caminos Invierno, Primativo, Ingles, Sanabres - all of which can be started 100kms from Santiago.
There is no need to rwinvent a wheel that's been around for a very long time.

 

[isawtman]

It has been a pilgrimage route since 1000+ years ...
And who is supposed to be the 'they' that should make an alternate route?

The "they" is whoever is in charge of the Camino in Galicia.
Again, I believe in the power of suggestions.
Back in 2010 I hiked both the Kekekabic Trail and Border Route Trail
parts of the North Country National Scenic Trail. On the Kek, I encountered
several people who were on the Kek hiking a loop, because there are
a few loop trails that use the Kek as part of their system. I didn't see anybody
like that on the Border Route Trail, because they didn't have a loop associated
with their Trail. So, I contacted the Border Route Trail Association and
suggested they build a loop connection so people would use the BRT
more often. They mulled it over and figured where was the best spot
for the loop. They proposed to the Forest Service the Moss Lake Trail
which goes between the South Lake Trail and the Cariboo Rock Trail,
two trails that connect to the Border Route. It was approved and the
BRTA built the 2.9 mile Moss Lake Trail that created a 14 mile stunning
loop in the Boundary Waters Wilderness. I did the map for the loop
because I am talented that way. Here it is:

http://tmanshikes.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/rosecliffs10_24_17lodgesindd.pdf

It was the least I could do for them.

The power of suggestions is great.

 

[dougfitz]

I guess the question should be, if there is a less traveled and more peaceful route through
Galicia, would you take it?

I am always open to exploring options. However, this sounds like the start of a promotional campaign. My view would be that any broadly equivalent alternative will fill up until both routes are carrying about the same amount of pilgrims, and both will face the same issues of crowding at certain times of the year and relative abundance at others.

If you are hiking the Camino Frances a second time
would you like to take a slightly different route?

I would, if it were the Camino Frances. But I would think twice about walking if I felt that the route lacked historical context. Walking a trail that, by the nature of its heritage listing, has been proven to have hosted pilgrims over the centuries will always be more significant than walking something without that provenance.

I believe that any town that is somewhat
close to the main camino has a history of pilgrims hiking through their town.

I know that there are aspects of our lives where believing something is enough to make it true. I don't think this is one of them.

In fact, it has
been fairly recently that the camino as we know is has been defined.

I suspect those that know the extensive efforts put into researching the route, both to bring it back to life, so to speak, and all that has been done since, will object to this. It has been defined by history, and we now make the best of walking on those parts that remain available to walkers.

The "they" is whoever is in charge of the Camino in Galicia.

Really!! I wonder how many times some of the more venerable members have to repeat that there is no-one in charge of the Camino, in Galicia, or anywhere else. To suggest this suggests a very shallow understanding of the nature of the Camino itself and the people who make it work from the individual albergue and other business owners through religious associations, local and regional government and the cathedral authorites in Santiago. This endeavour is not some centrally managed activity, but a collective effort with many individuals and organisations working within their own remits undertaking smaller or larger parts that amazingly come together to make it work for all of us.

 

[Ianinam]

Nobody is in charge of 'the Camino' in Galicia, and nobody is in charge of all the other Camino's through Europe. They arose spontaneously 12 centuries ago by pilgrims on their way to the shrine of apostel Saint James. Nothing more, but certainly nothing less.
You cannot compare a pilgrimspath to a hike or trail. It is something totally different!

 

[isawtman]

Really!! I wonder how many times some of the more venerable members have to repeat that there is no-one in charge of the Camino, in Galicia, or anywhere else.

There's really no one in charge of the Camino in Galicia? How did the 100 km rule come into existance? When I hiked the camino there was a work crew of people with weedwackers/brushcutters working on the hedgerows of the camino. Who is paying them? At some point everything about the camino has been decided by some group or entity. So, whoever they are, they should consider this. I think it would be great for the Camino

 

[dougfitz]

There's really no one in charge of the Camino in Galicia? How did the 100 km rule come into existance? When I hiked the camino there was a work crew of people with weedwackers/brushcutters working on the hedgerows of the camino. Who is paying them? At some point everything about the camino has been decided by some group or entity. So, whoever they are, they should consider this. I think it would be great for the Camino

You really don't get it, do you! The cathedral sets rules for receiving the Compostela. They also provide or authorize a form of credencial that allows those who wish to provide their bona fides as pilgrims to do so, which can be important at some albergues, but isn't always. Local councils and the xunta and other regional governments look after their urban and rural infrastructure as much for their own rate and tax payer as for any pilgrims that also pass through, various associations look after albergues, and might coordinate some of their efforts through peak bodies, but that is not direction. These are not efforts directed by some central authority. It just doesn't happen that way.

 

[Kathor1]

When I hiked the camino there was a work crew of people with weedwackers/brushcutters working on the hedgerows of the camino. Who is paying them? At some point everything about the camino has been decided by some group or entity. So, whoever they are, they should consider this

I guess you did not ask them? Then we would know ... Do you read Spanish? This is from the website of the regional government of Galicia about how the Camino is kept tidy:

El objetivo de la campaña es mantener el Camino limpio, con la colaboración de los principales agentes que intervienen en él: peregrinos, albergues, hospitaleros, asociaciones, empresas privadas y administraciones públicas.​

​

La acción cuenta con la participación de más de 400 voluntarios repartidos en 48 albergues de 8 provincias, coordinados por 14 asociaciones.​

 

[Corned Beef]

Fantastic thread and a great thought experiment (qv)

Think of other historical and cultural items that suffer from traffic such as St Marks Square in Venice or the Pyramids. If only we could build alternatives to alleviate the crowds (and save €50 in Venice).

 

[isawtman]

​

La acción cuenta con la participación de más de 400 voluntarios repartidos en 48 albergues de 8 provincias, coordinados por 14 asociaciones.​

Cleaning the Camino is different than maintaining it

 

[isawtman]

You really don't get it, do you! The cathedral sets rules for receiving the Compostela. They also provide or authorize a form of credencial that allows those who wish to provide their bona fides as pilgrims to do so, which can be important at some albergues, but isn't always. Local councils and the xunta and other regional governments look after their urban and rural infrastructure as much for their own rate and tax payer as for any pilgrims that also pass through, various associations look after albergues, and might coordinate some of their efforts through peak bodies, but that is not direction. These are not efforts directed by some central authority. It just doesn't happen that way.

So, you willfully list a bunch of entities that are in charge of the Camino. Thank You!!!!

 

[t2andreo]

It is an interesting idea and IMO worth pursuing a bit further, at least as a thought exercise.

Those who would aspire to earn a compostela after walking a new route would be wise to note that this webpage:

The Credencial: Pilgrim’s Reception Office

The official Credencial of the Pilgrim’s Office

oficinadelperegrino.com

states: "The last 100 km must be done by any of the routes recognized as official by the S. A. M. I. Cathedral of Santiago."

I understand that the Camino de Invierno:

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/forums/camino-de-invierno-from-ponferrada.79/

passes to the south of Monterosso. That might or might not be relevant.

One can always stop on the Camino Frances at Sarria, and travel to Monforte de Lemos on the Camino de Invierno. IIRC, the distance from Monforte de Lemos to Santiago, along the Camino de Invierno is 134 km or thereabouts.

Essentially, you trade one more walking day for an almost total lack of crowds. Were I walking the Camino Frances during the peak season, I would seriously consider this detour.

In fact, I just checked Rome2Rio.com. There are multiple trains, and buses, everyday, from Sarria to Monforte de Lemos.

The trip takes 31 - 40 minutes. Buses are cheapest. Trains are more comfortable and, at least to me, convenient.

In comparison, there are fewer support services along the Invierno - largely because there are so few pilgrims along most of the route.

Hope this helps,

Tom

 

[Kathor1]

Cleaning the Camino is different than maintaining it

Creating and maintaining infrastructure is done by those entities who own it or who own the land it is on. This may be centralised in Galicia, I can't be bothered to find out. I once wrote to a number of entities in Navarra with a suggestion to improve the trail down from the Alto del Pardon, for example creating a sections of the trail that had a zig-zag form. I got a friendly reply where "they" agreed and said that they are aware of the fact that the trail is accident prone but changing it would be expensive as it would entail expropriation of land. BTW, I did not do this for myself, I had no trouble walking down and I did it faster than most.

The Camino de Santiago is not a single physical entity as others have explained already and repeatedly. It is a patchwork of many roads and trails, some publicly owned at the national, or the regional, or the local or the municipal administrative level and some of it on private land even. And it is not just the roads and footpaths that have made it so succesful and popular in Spain. It is the whole infrastructure - accommodation, restaurants, shops, transport.

 

[lt56ny]

I guess the question should be, if there is a less traveled and more peaceful route through
Galicia, would you take it? If you are hiking the Camino Frances a second time
would you like to take a slightly different route? I believe that any town that is somewhat
close to the main camino has a history of pilgrims hiking through their town. In fact, it has
been fairly recently that the camino as we know is has been defined.

I think the question of taking a different route home to Santiago can only be answered by the individual pilgrim. Right now there are lots of different alternatives. There is the Ingles, Primitivo, Sanabria, Norte and Portugues. A short bus ride from Sarria or somewhere near that can put you on an alternative route to avoid the "parade". It is just your choice, IMO anyway.

 

[trecile]

Isn't it obvious. Lot's of people have been complaining that section is too crowded.
Providing a less traveled and more peaceful route will appeal to a lot of people

Who is to build and maintain pilgrim albergues and the other infrastructure that pilgrims need on this new alternative?

 

[C clearly]

Isn't it obvious. Lot's of people have been complaining that section is too crowded.

Oh, sorry. It wasn't obvious in your post that you were thinking of the entire route after Portomarin to Santiago. I thought you were talking about one stage after Portomarín, due to a problem with the path.

There's really no one in charge of the Camino in Galicia? How did the 100 km rule come into existance?

The cathedral in Santiago decides the rules for Compostelas, including what routes qualify. However, they have no part in the signage, path construction, baggage transport, albergues, private rooms, or other facilities that people will expect before they flock to new routes.

, you willfully list a bunch of entities that are in charge of the Camino.

Yes, there are many local entities with responsibilities for many of the pieces that make up the Camino. That is why decisions are so hard - they involve many responsible parties, each with different interests and priorities.

By the way, I don't think anyone on this thread is arguing against having a new route. Rather, we are trying to explain how "the Camino" works, and doesn't work, and how it is more complicated than they might initially assume.

 

[Corned Beef]

I have to admire the 'can-do' attitudes of our North American pilgrims. There isn't an issue that can't be sorted with a will and I do not doubt they could achieve it given some co-operation with the authorities.

The New World Method: Build it and they will come.

The Old World method: Check with the Church; check with the local, national and international authorities. Set up a committee. Check for "long lost" documents in university libraries that would authenticate a route. Write a book with a catchy name such as the Templar Way. Get a TV company to send some celebs along the route so they can explain what this newly discovered route means to them. Wait 1000 years.

 

[trecile]

I have to admire the 'can-do' attitudes of our North American pilgrims. There isn't an issue that can't be sorted with a will and I do not doubt they could achieve it given some co-operation with the authorities.

The New World Method: Build it and they will come.

If only it were that easy. There's plenty of bureaucracy and red tape in the US. There's a group in Los Angeles who isn't waiting for the powers that be to paint crosswalks at some critical intersections and has been doing it themselves. Unfortunately, when the authorities discover these citizen created crosswalks they paint over them.

https://www.npr.org/2022/03/31/1089865057/a-secretive-la-group-has-a-new-mission-paint-untouched-crosswalks

 

[Pathfinder075]

The "they" is whoever is in charge of the Camino in Galicia.
Again, I believe in the power of suggestions.
Back in 2010 I hiked both the Kekekabic Trail and Border Route Trail
parts of the North Country National Scenic Trail. On the Kek, I encountered
several people who were on the Kek hiking a loop, because there are
a few loop trails that use the Kek as part of their system. I didn't see anybody
like that on the Border Route Trail, because they didn't have a loop associated
with their Trail. So, I contacted the Border Route Trail Association and
suggested they build a loop connection so people would use the BRT
more often. They mulled it over and figured where was the best spot
for the loop. They proposed to the Forest Service the Moss Lake Trail
which goes between the South Lake Trail and the Cariboo Rock Trail,
two trails that connect to the Border Route. It was approved and the
BRTA built the 2.9 mile Moss Lake Trail that created a 14 mile stunning
loop in the Boundary Waters Wilderness. I did the map for the loop
because I am talented that way. Here it is:

http://tmanshikes.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/rosecliffs10_24_17lodgesindd.pdf

It was the least I could do for them.

The power of suggestions is great.

One thing I have wondered about is why the Camino no longer goes past the Vilar de Donas church, or did it ever go past it or was it part of a different route.

If you streetview the church and look right you will find a seating area with a water fountain (which worked when I was there in 2016). Also a rusted Camino totem and I almost wondered if the building directly behind was at one point a convent type albergue. My parents thought they had rerouted it through Palas de Rey, so the shops and bars could relieve the pilgrims of a few euros. If so it almost seems more like tourism is more important than providing an authentic pilgrimage.

Was this part of an original Camino route, or has it always been a detour. It seems strange to be a detour given the people who are buried here are the original guardians of the Camino routes.

 

[dougfitz]

One thing I have wondered about is why the Camino no longer goes past the Vilar de Donas church, or did it ever go past it or was it part of a different route.

Good question. I walked the CF in 2010 and again in 2016. The route that I took both times followed the road from Airexe to A Brea, some 2 km south of Vilar de Donas. The current CF route alignment hasn't changed from that, so any change wasn't recent.

I'm not sure how a route through Vilar de Donas would work coming from Portomarin. Just looking at the OSM mapping on the web, there doesn't appear to be any existing road or track network that would make it a more direct route to Melide than the current alignment. Do you have any information on the routing that might have existed to include this on the CF route?

 

[Pathfinder075]

Good question. I walked the CF in 2010 and again in 2016. The route that I took both times followed the road from Airexe to A Brea, some 2 km south of Vilar de Donas. The current CF route alignment hasn't changed from that, so any change wasn't recent.

I'm not sure how a route through Vilar de Donas would work coming from Portomarin. Just looking at the OSM mapping on the web, there doesn't appear to be any existing road or track network that would make it a more direct route to Melide than the current alignment. Do you have any information on the routing that might have existed to include this on the CF route?

I don't I just wondered if at one point it went past the church and maybe bypassed Palas de Rey and went straight to Melide. I also don't think it would work as a detour for Portomarin.

Given the rusted state of the Camino Totem by the seating area, I would guess it was re-routed long ago, maybe 20-25 years back. I wondered how long it takes for stainless steel (assuming that was what was used) to start to rust. I know from my own experience it doesn't generally start rusting for quite a while. That particular pole looks like it has been neglected for quite a while, but it seems someone is maintaining the water fountain.

Another possibility, was it a sub-route on Primitivo at some point, but similarly I can find no info. if my Spanish was better I would have asked the caretaker, but neither mine nor my parents was good enough for that level of conversation.

If you are looking for an alternate from Portomarin, maybe a route that heads to Palas de Rey by a different route and stays South of the current route.

Toxibó to O Leboreiro

www.google.com

 

[Bob Howard]

We Norte Americanos tend to want to "improve" things. Decades of much more serious foreign policy matters around the world has pretty much shown that our meddling in another culture is almost always a disaster. Proposing a new route doesn't, of course, rise to and is unlikely to result in a disaster--rather it is a mild form of the kind of cultural arrogance that much of the rest of the world recognizes in us. Kind of like bull-fighting [and pursuant to Forum rules and moderation I am not starting a bull fighting discussion], but it is nevertheless a good example in this context. Most of us do not approve of it. But so what. It is part of Spanish culture, whether we approve or not. Maybe this is too harsh but I find the concept that we would presume to tell local and provincial Spanish jurisdictions where or how to route or re-route an historical pilgrimage preposterous on its face.

 

[C clearly]

We Norte Americanos tend to

I am neither agreeing or disagreeing with what you wrote. However, this is the start of a generalized discussion of national/cultural differences and attitudes that have very limited connection to the Camino. The issues that are relevant to this thread have been pointed out already. The bull-fighting example is not a very good one for this case, as I don't think the decisions (about routing the path) involve a fundamental clash of principles/morals. 'Nuf said.

I see nothing wrong with the OP putting forth an idea about the Camino route and some practicalities. Various people have pointed out some wrong assumptions, as well as the difficulties in implementation.

 

[Marc S.]

I believe in the power of
suggestions and some of my suggestions have become reality.

At some point everything about the camino has been decided by some group or entity. So, whoever they are, they should consider this

Stating that other people should consider this, is not a suggestion.
It comes across as a rather arrogant statement.

 

[dougfitz]

So, you willfully list a bunch of entities that are in charge of the Camino. Thank You!!!!

This misrepresents my post. My point is that none of these organizations are in charge of the Camino. If any conceptual structure explains the Camino today, it is that its properties are emergent - greater than the sum its parts, none of which could be removed without taking away more than its individual contribution. Amazingly for many, while it might have started with a single, motivated, individual, this has continued through collaboration, participation and collective coordination of the various parties.

 

[David Tallan]

I guess the question should be, if there is a less traveled and more peaceful route through
Galicia, would you take it? If you are hiking the Camino Frances a second time
would you like to take a slightly different route? I believe that any town that is somewhat
close to the main camino has a history of pilgrims hiking through their town. In fact, it has
been fairly recently that the camino as we know is has been defined.

I'm not so sure I can agree that it has been fairly recently that the camino as we know it has been defined. That may be true for a number of the modern Camino routes but for the Camino Frances (and the Camino Aragones which didn't used to be distinguished from the Camino Frances) it is pretty clearly not true. I've got a number of Camino guides dating from the 80s and earlier and all ground themselves pretty firmly in the 12th century definition of the Camino de Santiago as set forth in the Codex Calixtinus. I don't think a 12th century definition can be called "fairly recently".

As to whether people would take a less traveled and more peaceful route through Galicia, or a different route for a second Camino Frances, I think it would depend on what one is looking for on the Camino. I suspect the Camino Invierno is going to give us better answers to this question than any speculations on this forum.

 

[isawtman]

This misrepresents my post. My point is that none of these organizations are in charge of the Camino. If any conceptual structure explains the Camino today, it is that its properties are emergent - greater than the sum its parts, none of which could be removed without taking away more than its individual contribution. Amazingly for many, while it might have started with a single, motivated, individual, this has continued through collaboration, participation and collective coordination of the various parties.

The Camino is not the Rainbow Gathering. The Camino has people and groups making decisions about it. Yes, there may be many factions deciding stuff, but they are deciding it. Meanwhile, the Rainbow People and Gathering have intentionally no leader or nobody in charge of anything. That way when they make an encampment in the National Forest, nobody can be sued. Maybe, we could solve the Camino problem by going back and not having ANY official routes. Just let people hike to Santiago the way they see fit. It's already been reported that there is a Pilgrim's Totem in a location that is off the official Camino Frances. I suspect every little town west of Portomarin has had some Pilgrims visit their town at some point in history. Perhaps there was some sort of sickness in let's say Arzua, so people used the next town over.

 

[David Tallan]

There's really no one in charge of the Camino in Galicia? How did the 100 km rule come into existance? When I hiked the camino there was a work crew of people with weedwackers/brushcutters working on the hedgerows of the camino. Who is paying them? At some point everything about the camino has been decided by some group or entity. So, whoever they are, they should consider this. I think it would be great for the Camino

Actually, it's a whole bunch of different entities, often acting without coordination and sometimes at cross purposes.

The 100 km rule was put in place by the Cathedral in Santiago, which also operates the Pilgrim Office. They have nothing to do with the people you saw with weedwhackers/brushcutters. There is no "they" that encompasses both. The government of the autonomous region of Galicia operates a network of albergues (but by no means all albergues, since many are operated independently by the local churches or pilgrim associations or private individuals). They also put in place the mojones (stones that mark the distance to Santiago). But they are certainly not responsible for all of the yellow arrows, many of which are maintained by local volunteers. It is likely that the work crew you saw were from either a more local municipality or, just as likely, local volunteers.

People are not lying to you when they are saying there is no overarching central authority governing the Camino infrastructure.

 

[David Tallan]

Good question. I walked the CF in 2010 and again in 2016. The route that I took both times followed the road from Airexe to A Brea, some 2 km south of Vilar de Donas. The current CF route alignment hasn't changed from that, so any change wasn't recent.

I'm not sure how a route through Vilar de Donas would work coming from Portomarin. Just looking at the OSM mapping on the web, there doesn't appear to be any existing road or track network that would make it a more direct route to Melide than the current alignment. Do you have any information on the routing that might have existed to include this on the CF route?

For what it's worth, my IGN map of the Camino, circa 1989, seems to show the Camino going through Vilar de Donas, but it also might be just south. (I also just noticed that the thick green line that marks the Camino continues past Santiago, but not to Finisterre, instead to Padron.)

 

[lt56ny]

If only it were that easy. There's plenty of bureaucracy and red tape in the US. There's a group in Los Angeles who isn't waiting for the powers that be to paint crosswalks at some critical intersections and has been doing it themselves. Unfortunately, when the authorities discover these citizen created crosswalks they paint over them.

https://www.npr.org/2022/03/31/1089865057/a-secretive-la-group-has-a-new-mission-paint-untouched-crosswalks

The New World Method: Build it and they will come.

I do not know if you are a new world person but I doubt it.
trecile and I are from the same town. Try cutting a tree down in front of your house without the necessary permits wowwwww are you in for a headache and possible stroke.
It ain't easy brother!!!!

 

[David Tallan]

Stating that other people should consider this, is not a suggestion.
It comes across as a rather arrogant statement.

I disagree. Saying they should implement it takes it beyond a suggestion. Saying they should consider it doesn't presuppose what they should do as a result.

 

[Bradypus]

For what it's worth, my IGN map of the Camino, circa 1989, seems to show the Camino going through Vilar de Donas, but it also might be just south.

Pretty hard to tell on that scale. The 1985 Valiña guide has the Camino passing a little south of Vilar de Donas.

 

[David Tallan]

Pretty hard to tell on that scale. The 1985 Valiña guide has the Camino passing a little south of Vilar de Donas.

View attachment 146290

Very good point. I should have pulled that off the shelf first. My other pilgrim guide from the time (1990) also describes Vilar de Donas as 2.5 km off route to the right.

 

[isawtman]

I guess this is a question for Don Thomas who has already commented
on this thread. He has volunteered extensively at the Pilgrims Office
in Santiago. Let's say a pilgrim is hiking the Camino and the Camino
is totally jammed with people. Let's say that pilgrim looks at booking.com
and sees there is a bed available in the next town over, which is 7 km from
the Camino. So the pilgrim walks over there and skips a section of the
Official Camino. Is the Pilgrims Office going to accept that pilgrim's credential?

 

[Kathor1]

. It's already been reported that there is a Pilgrim's Totem in a location that is off the official Camino Frances. I suspect every little town west of Portomarin has had some Pilgrims visit there town at some point in history. Perhaps there was some sort of sickness in let's say Arzua, so people used the next town over.

There are dozens of old churches and villages to the right and left of the trail with the yellow arrows where pilgrims could walk tomorrow and where pilgrims may have walked at any point in time. You can walk any way you want to Santiago and regard it as a hike or a pilgrimage or whatever you want to call it. Nobody will stop you. So what is your point? You want to have more infrastructure than there is, worldwide PR, recognition so that walkers get a Compostela? You may have more success with your suggestions being heard by “them” when you try to understand what “their” criteria are for making such financial investments and other efforts. Good luck!

 

[Anamiri]

There are already several alternative routes on the Camino Frances,
but perhaps the place they could use one the most doesn't have one.
I think the people of Galicia should consider creating an alternative route
after Portomarin. Perhaps having the alternative go through Monterroso.
The reason the variant has to be after Portomarin is that bridges over
the River Mino are few and far between.

There are actually lots of alternative routes, but not a complete one to Santiago. But lots of varientes.
Ive often taken them by accident, then when its dawned on me that there arent many other pilgrims, I notice there arent km numbers on the markers. Actually took me a whole Camino to realise they only put the kms on the official ones, initially I just thought it was a random thing.
Sometimes this results in entirely missing a town or village I planned to stop at for breakfast, but largely it just makes for a quieter section.

 

[Pilgrim9]

One can always stop on the Camino Frances at Sarria, and travel to Monforte de Lemos on the Camino de Invierno. IIRC, the distance from Monforte de Lemos to Santiago, along the Camino de Invierno is 134 km or thereabouts.

Essentially, you trade one more walking day for an almost total lack of crowds. Were I walking the Camino Frances during the peak season, I would seriously consider this detour.

In fact, I just checked Rome2Rio.com. There are multiple trains, and buses, everyday, from Sarria to Monforte de Lemos.

The trip takes 31 - 40 minutes. Buses are cheapest. Trains are more comfortable and, at least to me, convenient.

In comparison, there are fewer support services along the Invierno - largely because there are so few pilgrims along most of the route.

Hope this helps,

Tom

Thank you for this information, t2andreo. It will certainly be of help to many, including me. I have been pondering the Invierno for some time, just not sure I can walk sufficiently-long stages for that route.

 

[SabsP]

The Camino is not the Rainbow Gathering. The Camino has people and groups making decisions about it. Yes, there may be many factions deciding stuff, but they are deciding it. Meanwhile, the Rainbow People and Gathering have intentionally no leader or nobody in charge of anything. That way when they make an encampment in the National Forest, nobody can be sued. Maybe, we could solve the Camino problem by going back and not having ANY official routes. Just let people hike to Santiago the way they see fit. It's already been reported that there is a Pilgrim's Totem in a location that is off the official Camino Frances. I suspect every little town west of Portomarin has had some Pilgrims visit there town at some point in history. Perhaps there was some sort of sickness in let's say Arzua, so people used the next town over.

First of all there is no Camino problem. The Camino is and evolves.

Secondly : the Camino is not a hike but a pilgrimage.

Thirdly : the Camino is like Life . The good, the bad & the ugly.

 

[dougfitz]

Let's say a pilgrim is hiking the Camino and the Camino
is totally jammed with people. Let's say that pilgrim looks at booking.com
and sees there is a bed available in the next town over, which is 7 km from
the Camino. So the pilgrim walks over there and skips a section of the
Official Camino. Is the Pilgrims Office going to accept that pilgrim's credential?

This has been happening for years as far as I can tell. There have always been accommodation options off what might be the narrowly defined 'formal camino'. Sometimes owners will pick up pilgrims and drop them back to where they were collected the following day, others one might walk or use a taxi. This happens on other pilgrimage routes and in other countries. I have done it myself in both Spain and elsewhere. It doesn't have to be because there is no available accommodation either, although that might be one of the circumstances where it does happen. You would have to contemplate that pilgrims might make personal choices to use a place, others might recommend somewhere they stayed on previous pilgrimages, etc.

Do these places need to be organised as a formal route. Clearly not. I suggest that the current arrangements are at least adequate. Could it be improved? Most things can, but that doesn't mean that some gringo should step in and interfere.

 

[Richard Smith]

Suggestions sometimes do work, here is a story from Australia about a 14 year old boy who managed to get two councils to create a pedestrian crossing at a dangerous road.

Flynn knew this intersection was an accident waiting to happen, so he decided to fix it before it became a reality

A request to install a crossing to make a busy road safer seemed like a simple enough request to Flynn, but when his local council would not intervene, he took matters into his own hands.

www.abc.net.au

 

[dick bird]

the people of Galicia

I think this phrase is the key to the problem. The 'people of Galicia' are a very heterogeneous lot. First there is the Xunta, the elected government or council of the Autonomous region of Galicia who would be responsible for building albergues and marking the route and who would have to find the budget for same. Elected bodies are powerfully opposed to anything that requires a budget. Then there are the local conselhos or town councils, some of whom would be happy to have a new camino route passing through their town, assuming it did pass through their town because if it didn't they'd be lobbying for it to do so rather than passing through another town a couple of kilometres away. Other local councils will be dominated by farmers and land owners, bitterly opposed to troupes of foreigners marching across their fields. Then there are local historians with conflicting claims about whether a particular church or village was ever on a pilgrimage route. Some local people are simply opposed to caminos on ideological or personal grounds. You would need to enlist the support of local confederations to mark and maintain the route and finally you would have to convince the Roman Catholic Church that what you have is an authentic, traditional pilgrimage route (and let's not get started on UNESCO and the Spanish government in Madrid). Even the Camino Francés took years of cajoling, negotiating and sheer hard work just to establish what we now accept as a well-worn and universally recognised route, and new routes have proven extremely difficult to set up - witness Ender´s efforts on the Salvador and Olvidado. It´s a great idea on the face of it, but it´s never going to happen just because it´s a great idea: it's going to require years of commitment, research and often very hard work.

 

[markie6]

The route has altered many times over the years. Getting to the tomb was the aim, how we got there seems to be of less importance. Where we came from was also not a problem.

Are we laying the blame for the log jam on the 100k requirement ?

 

[Bradypus]

Are we laying the blame for the log jam on the 100k requirement ?

Probably. In the early days of the Camino revival in the 1980s before the 100km rule Sarria had no special significance. Although there was no minimum distance for a Compostela most people then chose to walk far longer distances than the current 100km minimum. @Kathar1na found some fascinating statistics from Roncesvalles from 1987 which showed that half of all Compostelas that year went to people who had passed through Roncesvalles. These days only a small fraction of pilgrims walk anything like that distance and most opt for something close to the minimum necessary to receive the Compostela.

 

[Roland49]

Do these places need to be organised as a formal route. Clearly not. I suggest that the current arrangements are at least adequate. Could it be improved? Most things can, but that doesn't mean that some gringo should step in and interfere.

You made my day!

 

[isawtman]

Now I am Gringo who is interfering when I am just making a suggestion to make the camino a better experience.

 

[Tincatinker]

make the camino a better experience.

There is nothing wrong with the Camino. There is nothing needs fixing.


Now the expectations and demands of some of the people walking the trails…. There’s something that could do with a bit of work.

 

[Pilgrim9]

Now I am Gringo who is interfering when I am just making a suggestion to make the camino a better experience.

I like the concept of having additional routes to Santiago in that last 100 km.

New routes can come into being organically even though they might never become recognized by the Pilgrim's Office.

Perhaps the seed of your idea will germinate and stimulate someone to craft their own walking route from Portomarín, through Monterroso and onwards to Santiago, perhaps but not necessarily merging somewhere with the Invierno. And then walk the route, starting in Sarría. And then tell us about what s/he found along the way, and his/her experiences. I am sure many here would love to read about the trip.

That route-pioneering pilgrim might or might not respectfully and humbly submit to the Pilgrim's Office the normal application for a compostela, supported by objective evidence (minimum of two different sources of objective evidence per day), of having walked the entire route, and with some logical line of reasoning explaining the choice of route. Prudent route-pioneering pilgrims might also provide a map showing the route taken and the locations of the sources of the provided objective evidence.

After examining the application, the Pilgrim's Office either will, or will not, issue a compostela.

Over the years this might recur from time to time. Local businesses might spring up to serve the needs of pilgrims for food, lodgings, other services.

The Pilgrim's Office might eventually notice the recurring use of the new route. It might or might not then add the new route to their list of recognized routes worthy of compostelas.

This might take many years. That is OK.

Even if the new route is never officially recognized, the route-pioneering pilgrims will know in their hearts what they did and why they did it.

Accomplishment of good acts performed with good intentions are their own rewards and require no external validation.

 

[David Tallan]

There is nothing wrong with the Camino. There is nothing needs fixing.


Now the expectations and demands of some of the people walking the trails…. There’s something that could do with a bit of work.

That there is nothing wrong with the Camino or that needs fixing doesn't make it necessarily follow that it cannot be a better experience. That's why people build and supply and maintain the many donativos that we encounter along the way. I wouldn't say that their efforts are wasted.

 

[C clearly]

There is nothing wrong with the Camino. There is nothing needs fixing.

Now the expectations and demands of some of the people walking the trails…. There’s something that could do with a bit of work.

That there is nothing wrong with the Camino or that needs fixing doesn't make it necessarily follow that it cannot be a better experience. That's why people build and supply and maintain the many donativos that we encounter along the way. I wouldn't say that their efforts are wasted.

The strong defensive reaction to a suggestion for "improvement" seems like an unkind over-reaction to me. I think there are challenges and even flaws in the suggestion, but the idea should not be slammed down with such energy. Of course there are ways to improve our experiences, as @David Tallan points out.

 

[Bob Howard]

There is nothing wrong with the Camino. There is nothing needs fixing.


Now the expectations and demands of some of the people walking the trails…. There’s something that could do with a bit of work.

Good one.

 

[AlwynWellington]

perhaps the place they could use one the most doesn't have one.

I come to this about a week after the first post.

As I understand it, I am free to walk wherever I can find a safe way.

And where I can find my regular coffee breaks and food at the end of the day.

If that happens to be a way that has also been signed, well and good. But signage is not essential.

Lack of dedicated signage did not prevent me from walking almost 600 km through eastern England and France on my way towards Rome a few years ago. And finding coffee and a feed when needed.

So, @isawtman, be adventurous and create your own route from Portomarin and let the rest of us know how it worked out.

And kia kaha, kia māia, kia mana'wa'nui (take care, be strong, confident and patient).

 

[isawtman]

So, @isawtman, be adventurous and create your own route from Portomarin and let the rest of us know how it worked out.

And kia kaha, kia māia, kia mana'wa'nui (take care, be strong, confident and patient).

I'm probably not going to do the Camino Frances again for a while unless Greybeard wants to do it. I'm trying to get him to do it in 24 as a warm up to his potentially record breaking hike of the Appalachian Trail in 25. He already has the record for the oldest person to paddle the Mississippi River, which I helped him out with last year. In reality, you could hike off the Camino Frances for most of the day as long as you get your two stamps on the camino each day.

 

[dougfitz]

I'm probably not going to do the Camino Frances again for a while unless Greybeard wants to do it. I'm trying to get him to do it in 24 as a warm up to his potentially record breaking hike of the Appalachian Trail in 25

I take it that this is a reference to Dale Sanders. He must be a fascinating man. The first online article I found about his recent record breaking attempt stated that

His thirst for adventure was never quenched as it continued to grow into his 20s when he decided to enlist in the U.S. Navy in 1958. He spent the next 37 years as a Hospital Corpsman, a Hard Hat Deep Sea Diver and serving with the U.S. Marine Corps in Okinawa, Japan, where he was put in charge of the Third Marine Division sport diving program.

and

He didn't stop there as he went into his professional career in Parks and Recreation for nearly six decades until retiring in 2002 to be a full-time adventurer.

Both quotes from: https://www.inforum.com/news/minnes...-man-paddles-the-mississippi-river-once-again.

All I can say is I don't know how he does it!

 

[ginniek]

I'm definitely late to this thread--maybe because I didn't want to have any scary flashbacks. However, I did, having experienced many times what it was like to get a variety of individual residents and businesses, interest groups, elected and appointed officials and the technical experts all more or less onboard together.

For many years I was a transportation planner, both in Canada and the US. My last title, before I retired at the age of 73, was director of planning and transportation for a four-county region. But I was generally known as the Cat Herder in Chief, because it was my responsibility to get local citizens, city, town and county governments and the state and US departments of transportation all headed in somewhat the same direction for the sake of implementing NEEDED improvement projects, ranging from developing bike and pedestrian facilities, adding bus routes and replacing bridges to widening an interstate highway,

Nothing I've ever worked on would come near being as convoluted as this. Just determining who in Galicia should be consulted about what is mind-bending.