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C clearly

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Time of past OR future Camino
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Has anyone else noticed that we've had some very harsh reactions and expressions of anger, on several threads this week - about graffiti, snoring, touching snorers, thoughtless trespassers, praying for hell, blasting and punching offenders! Those are all words in the top three trending threads as I write.

It gets contagious - I feel it rising in myself! Maybe we can ease off a bit.

:mad: [ducking and running] :eek:

Moderators - Feel free to delete this if it is inappropriate!
 
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Try not to get worried
Try not to turn on to
Problems that upset you
oh Don't you know
Everything's alright
Yes everything's fine
And we want you to sleep well tonight
Let the world turn without you tonight
If we try
We'll get by
So forget all about us tonight
 
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Try not to get worried
Try not to turn on to
Problems that upset you
oh Don't you know
Everything's alright
Yes everything's fine
And we want you to sleep well tonight
Let the world turn without you tonight
If we try
We'll get by
So forget all about us tonight

Close your eyes, close your eyes, and forget all about us tonight.
Buen camino everyone.
 
Well that's not what I expected. I had recommended to someone that if they checked out this site - even though they were not intending to walk the Camino, alongside the practical questions about boots and other equipment, they would find threads that were reflective, compassionate and often heart-warming. I obviously picked the wrong week to point this member of the Anglican clergy in our direction. Perhaps the antidote is to start more threads such as that by @Robo about introverts on the Camino which elicited so much considered discussion - the forum at its best.
 
The focus is on reducing the risk of failure through being well prepared. 2nd ed.
Has anyone else noticed that we've had some very harsh reactions and expressions of anger, on several threads this week - about graffiti, snoring, touching snorers, thoughtless trespassers, praying for hell, blasting and punching offenders! Those are all words in the top three trending threads as I write.

It gets contagious - I feel it rising in myself! Maybe we can ease off a bit.

:mad: [ducking and running] :eek:

Moderators - Feel free to delete this if it is inappropriate!

I think some things are meant in humor, which can be difficult for everyone to get when just reading on the screen. There are many new members that enter the forum and they come from the entire range of humans. Yesterday I engaged with one of them on a private message and quickly learned they were not interested in a discussion, but only interested in attacking people. It was very strange and it only took one message to learn that I was engaging with a vastly different participant of those interested in the Camino.

C, we do need to see clearly at these times. The Camino calls to all and some of us are pretty crusty fellows. Our job is to not respond to the contagion, but to remain a source of peace in the world. I know that is difficult because the response can come so quickly to the lips.

The advice is to breathe, see who is saying what, recognize if they are new, if so ignore when needed, and respond to the issue rather than the emotion.

Always enjoy reading your posts. Walking now in Northern Virginia is delightful; cool breeze, sun shining, and birds singing. What a joy to be outside.
 
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Has anyone else noticed that we've had some very harsh reactions and expressions of anger, on several threads this week - about graffiti, snoring, touching snorers, thoughtless trespassers, praying for hell, blasting and punching offenders! Those are all words in the top three trending threads as I write.

Yes, I have noticed as well. It has been uncharacteristically angry in here. Either that, or some of us have become uncharacteristically sensitive to the expressions of anger. Keeping things in perspective, this forum has not deteriorated into the name calling and personal attacks that you so often find elsewhere, so kudos to the moderators.
 
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;) This reminds me of an article a friend sent me, she was thinking of doing the Camino, and came across the article while searching the internet for info. It was titled "Ten Reasons NOT to do the Camino de Santiago". I laughed as I read it. It touched on snoring people, the hot weather, uneven, narrow and rocky trails, lack of bathroom facilities, and monotonous scenery.

If you are the type of person that would write an article like that after walking the Camino, then the Camino is NOT for you, AND the Camino is not for everyone. I have some friends that would LOVE the Camino, and I have some friends that would hate the Camino. I personally love walking the Camino, and the good things out weigh the bad things, and it is not even close for me. I do see C clearly's point, we need more happiness and thankfulness in the world:)
 
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I quite enjoyed the snoring, graffiti and trespassing beefs. Especially that the snoring one went off on a tangent about parrots, and then came back on track again.

But just as overcrowding causes deterioration of social behaviour in everyday life, so possibly may the Camino be becoming so overcrowded that it is becoming ruined, and the forum going to hell with it?
 
But just as overcrowding causes deterioration of social behaviour in everyday life, so possibly may the Camino be becoming so overcrowded that it is becoming ruined, and the forum going to hell with it?
Gee, only if we let it. I wouldn't give the forum up (or the Camino) as a lost cause yet!
 
The 2024 Camino guides will be coming out little by little. Here is a collection of the ones that are out so far.
(...) so possibly may the Camino be becoming so overcrowded that it is becoming ruined, and the forum going to hell with it?

I walk the Camino francés in the Summer, when it is supposedly sooooo overcrowded. No. It isn't so and it isn't ruined. Different maybe to what may have been your experience but still a blessing to walk it.
 
Tis the time of the year when we old grumps finally wake up after the "silly season" of impossible questions that wonderful folks like Mark Lee spend their preci0us time answering to deaf pilgrims. It's summer and the Camino bears are coming out of hibernation. We can ignore the silly questions and talk about the seriousness of our quest on the Camino.
 
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I walk the Camino francés in the Summer, when it is supposedly sooooo overcrowded. No. It isn't so and it isn't ruined. Different maybe to what may have been your experience but still a blessing to walk it.


This is so true.
I've also walked the CF 3 times in the summer and it has always been fabulous, with long evenings relaxing outside.
Aside from the final stretch into SDC, and a bit of a bottleneck after Roncesvalles, it has been a quiet Camino. On some days when walking in between book stages, I've maybe met only a few pilgrims (mostly cyclists) the whole of the day and ended up in almost empty albergues.
 
hi all, this week has been a bit odd on the forum - I thought it was me!

This is the first forum I participate on. People have responded with kindness, compassion and love. Its been a heart-thawing experience to slowly open up to strangers, and makes me glad to be here.
 
Tis the time of the year when we old grumps finally wake up after the "silly season" of impossible questions that wonderful folks like Mark Lee spend their preci0us time answering to deaf pilgrims. It's summer and the Camino bears are coming out of hibernation. We can ignore the silly questions and talk about the seriousness of our quest on the Camino.
upload_2017-5-16_19-22-45.webp"The inspection is purely for weight limitation on the Camino. I'll eat...er...store any over limit food packages you may have."
 
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Has anyone else noticed that we've had some very harsh reactions and expressions of anger, on several threads this week - about graffiti, snoring, touching snorers, thoughtless trespassers, praying for hell, blasting and punching offenders! Those are all words in the top three trending threads as I write.

It gets contagious - I feel it rising in myself! Maybe we can ease off a bit.

:mad: [ducking and running] :eek:

Moderators - Feel free to delete this if it is inappropriate!
Totally agree with your post here...definitely time to ease off and, maybe, think a little longer before we actually press the 'enter button' before we post.
 
I quite enjoyed the snoring, graffiti and trespassing beefs. Especially that the snoring one went off on a tangent about parrots, and then came back on track again.

But just as overcrowding causes deterioration of social behaviour in everyday life, so possibly may the Camino be becoming so overcrowded that it is becoming ruined, and the forum going to hell with it?
My opinion is there are only a certain amount of people that will fly to Spain to walk anywhere from a 100 to 500 miles.
Supply ( Albergues, hotels, bars, etc ) will spring up to meet demand.
It always does. We are all capitalists at heart.
In a few years the main culprits for the increase in walkers will be ourselves.
 
...and ship it to Santiago for storage. You pick it up once in Santiago. Service offered by Casa Ivar (we use DHL for transportation).
C--I thought of starting a similar thread earlier, but it was about 5:30 AM, then I went to the high school and taught 140 teenagers...

It has crossed my mind lately that things have gotten a bit touchy in here. I did love the snoring thread, mostly because if the fun turns--one person randomly thinking the OP was a selfish guy who chose snoring to mess with others, another posting about a small green parrot, our veteran member who went on with the various odd animal sounds. Seriously, it was fun reading, and especially as I saw all the animal noises as a way to defuse the "hot topic" at hand. I rather appreciated the mods letting it run this way and that.

Other threads have been mean, though. We have a few members who snap fast, and there is the random insult here and there. It is not that I miss the insult; I just choose to keep walking. I have recently tried to gently steer a person back onto the path with a nudge or a question, but I am looking for information more--which Camino will be next for me? When things get a bit gossipy or touchy, I start looking at maps or reading the interesting old blogs that Laurie and Reb did, or the guidebooks, descriptions, or technical gear questions. There are great re-runs in here.
 
You know, @CaminoDebrita, I enjoy bizarre and black humour, and a good dose of sarcasm. I am not exactly full of sweetness and light in my posts (as @Anemone del Camino has teased me above), and I get impatient when people are overly sensitive and leave the forum in a huff. However, this week just seemed harsh, with several threads going at once.

Today I got out for a 15 km walk and it is so nice to be tired this evening!
 
The focus is on reducing the risk of failure through being well prepared. 2nd ed.
Clare, I have noticed that the forum gets more like Facebook every day. More "stir 'em up so we can argue" and a lack of verbal filters. This post may be inappropriate. Just my opinion.
i think when things get crowded that kind of thing happens, i am on the camino norte' everything peaceful and happy. last nite a 16 bed albergue with 1 other quiet person. awwwh very nice. the birds are chirping i have the easiest day ahead 20k
perfect weather,a little dampy, i am losing weight eating tons,talking to great folks,have a new/used working smarty phone finally and very happy.
see you in santiago. then finestere ,muxial and portugal.
 
I quite enjoyed the snoring, graffiti and trespassing beefs. Especially that the snoring one went off on a tangent about parrots, and then came back on track again.

But just as overcrowding causes deterioration of social behaviour in everyday life, so possibly may the Camino be becoming so overcrowded that it is becoming ruined, and the forum going to hell with it?
yep, i think your right.
Im not sure how to get the info out but if they go to the norte route it is very nice and almost no pilgrims so far.
Like feast or famine. maybe i should be quiet.
 
As a moderator I am concerned about the lack of tolerance lately. Politeness, comradeship and tolerance were things that used to make moderating this forum so easy. I and the other mods find ourselves with much more work now than we used to have.

I hope it is just a temporary phenomenon.

Thanks to C clearly for the OP. William maybe it is time for Ivar and the moderators to engage in an open discussion with members about all of this. For example it would be very useful to know how the system of "warning points" introduced some time ago is going? Has it been used at all? As a Forum are we in danger of becoming like Facebook where people can post subjects not even tenuously linked to the Camino and others react? Do we need a restatement of not just the rules but a code of conduct? I'd also find it helpful to know what guidelines moderators have for closing threads - when they are closed because of the conduct of one or two individuals no one else can contribute whereas wouldn't it be better to warn or ban the offending individuals? In saying that maybe the size of the forum is such that moderators are so busy dealing with spam etc that simply isn't possible these days.
An open discussion of all of this may help.
 
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Hear Hear Johnnie Walker, fully agree with you in this instance with regard to all the points you have raised above. Sometimes, it IS very difficult to negotiate one's way around the forum. On my Australian Pilgrims on the Camino Facebook Group, I have been regularly advising my members, for some time now, to please check the group Guidelines before posting certain things - most members Do The Right Thing, but those who don't are advised that, should the keep on with a certain thread, their post WILL be deleted and that they WILL be removed from the group.
 
Johnnie - No doubt Ivar and the other moderators will have read your post and we will see if we can do better.

I remember the first Camino forum I joined has some rules followed by the statement "This is not the Military, and this list of rules is NOT a "break one and be removed from the list," sort of thing at all!". For many years this has worked and we bump along together occasionally like the grumpy bear we all say something we regret later and a "sorry" is usually enough. It seems that one or two people join from time to time with a more aggressive attitude to fellow posters and often they do not stay long.

What I try and do is be sure that people do not attack other posters or post threads outside our rules or Spanish/EU law. I am not a great user of the warning points system though other moderators are, which some members will be aware of. The posting of non Camino related topics is more difficult, if it is completely not related I see no point in them but so many topics are related loosely that this is often a grey area.

William
 
...and ship it to Santiago for storage. You pick it up once in Santiago. Service offered by Casa Ivar (we use DHL for transportation).
Johnnie - No doubt Ivar and the other moderators will have read your post and we will see if we can do better.

William

William, all forum members should record our thanks for the many hours moderators voluntarily spend keeping the forum in good order. My plea was for us to have a discussion about how we can all do better! Perhaps simply raising this from time to time as the OP has is enough? As for grumpiness, I'm guilty of being too sharp myself from time to time - but I think the point at issue is that we should all avoid confrontational and critical posts. Jam is always better than vinegar when posting!
 
Our No. 1 priority is to keep this forum a safe place for members to post without being attacked or insulted. 98% of moderator decisions are made by consensus but sometimes we have to make speedy individual decisions. Most of the questions above can be answered by reading the rules and as far as a general discussion on how we should apply them would only lead to a hundred different opinions and that would not be helpful at all. Easy yardstick before posting: read the rules and count to ten before replying. :)
 
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Whilst I agree Wayfarer it seems to me that the point of C clearly's original post is more about the tone or our posts rather than the content. Although posts are within the rules often the tone of the language does not reflect the spirit of politeness, comradeship and tolerance to which William referred. How do we promote that? I suppose by having discussions like these. :)
 
I agree with you Johnnie but my reply was more towards your earlier post than the OP. As to the OP's post I find that troublesome, rude or inconsiderate posts seem to come in waves, we as mods can go for several days and sometimes weeks without incident and suddenly we are inundated with reports, the vast majority being legitimate and on different subjects. I don't know why this happens but when we are in a peaceful spell I sometimes feel that this is the calm before the storm, but that's just me being cynical...:)
All we can do is monitor and keep things as pleasant as we can without over moderating.
 
Not me @Jersey, I have always felt that socialism, sharing and trying to live more simply so that others might simply live are far better creeds and more in tune with the sprit of what happens on/is the camino.
" we are all capitalists at heart "
Was kinda meant tongue in cheek. My point was that the supply will rise to meet the demand.
As in most cases the solution or answer usually lies in the middle.
As Yogi Berra once said
" no one goes there anymore - it's too crowded lol
 
The 2024 Camino guides will be coming out little by little. Here is a collection of the ones that are out so far.
All we can do is monitor and keep things as pleasant as we can without over moderating.
I think you strike a very good balance.
Whilst I agree Wayfarer it seems to me that the point of C clearly's original post is more about the tone or our posts rather than the content. Although posts are within the rules often the tone of the language does not reflect the spirit of politeness, comradeship and tolerance to which William referred. How do we promote that? I suppose by having discussions like these. :)
Exactly. I didn't think there were any blatant infractions that needed to be reported. Rather, people were using the forum to vent excessive anger at people mainly off the forum!
 
I am very, very sorry that I was being aggressive on the snoring post the other day. It is just not me to behave that way. I know it is not an exuse, but I was in a very bad state after recieving some horrible news that day.
So please, would you stop writing about me now?:)
 
I am very, very sorry that I was being aggressive on the snoring post the other day. It is just not me to behave that way. I know it is not an exuse, but I was in a very bad state after recieving some horrible news that day.
So please, would you stop writing about me now?:)
Ladybug, fear not, C Clearly's post was not pointing at you but was refering to a series of posts from a number of people. Although you did make an entrance in the Forum with a bang! ;)

Many old timers get frustrated with the same old questions being asked over and over again by people who seem to have done little or no research at all before asking for help. I can think of one in particular in the last couple of weeks I was getting quite annoyed with. Even with private messages pointing her in the right direction to find the info she was looking for the penny never seemed to drop.

But the truth is that the Search function does not work very well, and that's if you can find it on the very busy home page. Mind you, if one can fisgure out how to post, they could find out how to use the Search function.

An FAQ mandatory read before being able to access the reat of the Forum might be able to aleviate the old timers' frustration. As in you must click here and say you have read the document before accessing the rest. Because not answering the question is also not going to help the Forum.

And perhaps a "click here" if you have already bought a guidebook to give you access to the Forum: if you have not bothered, then no access :eek: either.

Would be in this FAQ:
1. How do I get to SJPP or Roncesvalles
2. How do I get a credencial
3. 100km walking with 1 or 2 stamps a day
4. How do I get out of Porto
5. A summer and a winter packing list
6. Using a SIM card


And then a list of questions not to ask ;):
1. What will the weather be like on April 31st 2019?
2. How busy will it be on April 31st 2020?
3. What SIM card should I buy?
4. Will I need a sleeping bag?
5. Will I need to book a bed ahead?
6. What is the best albergue in this town?
7. Can I do illegal things when I know they are illegal?

So @Ladybug , how can we help you with your upcoming and firat Camino? :rolleyes:
 
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So please, would you stop writing about me now?
I certainly wasn't writing particularly about you. (In fact, I thought you made a good point, although maybe a bit stronger than you intended. :D And we all do that occasionally.)

This discussion is about all of us, at times, how to have a good mixed community, and about the difficulties of moderating an internet forum.

I hope you will continue to participate.
 
Anemone and c clearly, thank you for forgiving me!
I will start next monday from SJPP, but I am getting nervous for the 17 km walk from Orrison to Roncesvalles,
so I think I will be donating the bed, and walk to Valcarlos instead:)
I will not be asking so many questions on the forum anymore, because I will be on my way.
But this forum contains a LOT of good information. Thanks:)
 
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Anemone and c clearly, thank you for forgiving me!
I will start next monday from SJPP, but I am getting nervous for the 17 km walk from Orrison to Roncesvalles,
so I think I will be donating the bed, and walk to Valcarlos instead:)
I will not be asking so many questions on the forum anymore, because I will be on my way.
But this forum contains a LOT of good information. Thanks:)
Being nervous is normal. I think that until my last Camino (number 7) , I was always nervous even if I rationally knew there was no reason to be. How weird is that?

Take it one step at a time, look at your guide book planning for the next day after a good, but short :p) shower and doing laundry, and it will all be ok. Book ahead of it makes you feel better (I do, as I a, a slow walker who walks with tiny steps like a Geisha), be kind to your feet. It will all be ok.
 
Anemone, you get the award for the best post in this thread, even though you left off some other Mr. Obvious type questions like:
How far can I walk in a day?
What is the average time to walk a km?
I could go on and on but don't want ot bore anyone.
 
I'd like to say that in addition to finding tons of helpful advice here (both practical information as well as "you can do it" pep talks), I find the tone here to be wonderfully and refreshingly supportive and kind. I gave up Facebook entirely for Lent this year and I only glance at it 10% of what I used to. I enjoy this forum immensely and I'd like to say "thank you" to the many people here who've helped this somewhat nervous newbie about to embark on his 1st ever Camino. :)
 
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Has anyone else noticed that we've had some very harsh reactions and expressions of anger, on several threads this week
Maybe we can ease off a bit.

I agree - we can as a group can be more positive about the frustrations and aggravations of Camino and of the people asking questions Camino.
The most frustrating day on Camino is still - a day spent on Camino! And most of us love nothing more than to talk about it!

Whilst I agree Wayfarer it seems to me that the point of C clearly's original post is more about the tone or our posts rather than the content. Although posts are within the rules often the tone of the language does not reflect the spirit of politeness, comradeship and tolerance to which William referred. How do we promote that? I suppose by having discussions like these. :)

I love this point - just by C clearly raising the issue, we can all, as a group, notice our tone and work to improve our tone.

I am very, very sorry that I was being aggressive on the snoring post the other day. It is just not me to behave that way. I know it is not an exuse, but I was in a very bad state after recieving some horrible news that day.
So please, would you stop writing about me now?:)

Thanks Ladybug, but you are not that powerful! ;) One person does not make a tone, C was clear about the fact that it was a group issue not an individual issue.


I'd like to say that in addition to finding tons of helpful advice here (both practical information as well as "you can do it" pep talks), I find the tone here to be wonderfully and refreshingly supportive and kind. I gave up Facebook entirely for Lent this year and I only glance at it 10% of what I used to. I enjoy this forum immensely and I'd like to say "thank you" to the many people here who've helped this somewhat nervous newbie about to embark on his 1st ever Camino. :)

It's nice to know not everyone noticed our deteriorating tone!

It gets contagious - I feel it rising in myself! Maybe we can ease off a bit.

I find this in myself quite a bit, not the anger but that I can mindlessly go along with the flow, I really appreciate C bringing this topic up as I will use this in my other interactions as well.
Am I reacting with my emotions or am I jumping on someone else's emotional wagon just to participate.
 
Ideal sleeping bag liner whether we want to add a thermal plus to our bag, or if we want to use it alone to sleep in shelters or hostels. Thanks to its mummy shape, it adapts perfectly to our body.

€46,-
Anemone and c clearly, thank you for forgiving me!
I will start next monday from SJPP, but I am getting nervous for the 17 km walk from Orrison to Roncesvalles,
so I think I will be donating the bed, and walk to Valcarlos instead:)
I will not be asking so many questions on the forum anymore, because I will be on my way.
But this forum contains a LOT of good information. Thanks:)

@Ladybug, you will really enjoy the gentle walk to Valcarlos, but pick up the map at the pilgrim office before you leave SJPDP. Valcarlos, it is a friendly village and the albergue is excellent. Buen Camino!
 
I agree - we can as a group can be more positive about the frustrations and aggravations of Camino and of the people asking questions Camino.

When you start getting jaded answering the same questions just remember when you first came to the forum and asked some questions that were probably asked and answered many times. Don't sweat the search function, just ask away.

Yes! If you find yourself having an emotional allergy to the constant stream of newbies asking the same questions as others have asked, please don't respond if you're feeling irritated. You can let those questions go by and choose to let others respond, and this way we can still create a positive culture of helpfulness. The newbies certainly won't know how to navigate the forum as well as we do, and that's OK - they'll learn after continued use.
 
When I first joined the forum 10 years ago, there didn't seem to be many people on it who had never been walking, never been away from home/out of state, never travelled without their spouse, never been backpacking. There seemed to be quite a mixed bag of Europeans then, who had done hiking before and were interested in the pilgrimage as a bigger, wider, more rounded experience.

There is now a definite takeover by more needy and idealistic people from outside Europe who are looking for more support and hand holding, help with making the simplest decisions, someone to look up bus and train timetables for them, someone to tell them will it be hot, what to 'do' about bed bugs, which are the 'best albergues' and the 'top picks' of places 'not to miss' and a whole lot of emotional crutch stuff. They all want to do the French way and start at SJPP 'like in the film'. They want to be told that everything will be fine, of course they will always find a bed, it's perfectly safe and the camino provides. Not that it can be unbearable at times, you will hate other pilgrims sometimes so much that you do and say bad things, and that there can be thieves and flashers.

I am helpful to the newbies out of a sense of public spirit, but really I am on the forum for selfish reasons - to read about alternative routes and cool adventures by the likes of @timr and @shawn corrigan and get ideas for my next walks.

Sorry if this sounds uncharitable, but I do honestly wish there was some kind of interactive resource you had to do before joining, which covered the basics. And I wish there wasn't quite such a la la land atmosphere on here, where one or two negative statements gets a thread closed down by the moderators. Being positive is good. So is being truthful.
 
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When I first joined the forum 10 years ago, there didn't seem to be many people on it who had never been walking, never been away from home/out of state, never travelled without their spouse, never been backpacking. There seemed to be quite a mixed bag of Europeans then, who had done hiking before and were interested in the pilgrimage as a bigger, wider, more rounded experience.

There is now a definite takeover by more needy and idealistic people from outside Europe who are looking for more support and hand holding, help with making the simplest decisions, someone to look up bus and train timetables for them, someone to tell them will it be hot, what to 'do' about bed bugs, which are the 'best albergues' and the 'top picks' of places 'not to miss' and a whole lot of emotional crutch stuff. They all want to do the French way and start at SJPP 'like in the film'. They want to be told that everything will be fine, of course they will always find a bed, it's perfectly safe and the camino provides. Not that it can be unbearable at times, you will hate other pilgrims sometimes so much that you do and say bad things, and that there can be thieves and flashers.

I am helpful to the newbies out of a sense of public spirit, but really I am on the forum for selfish reasons - to read about alternative routes and cool adventures by the likes of @timr and @shawn corrigan and get ideas for my next walks.

Sorry if this sounds uncharitable, but I do honestly wish there was some kind of interactive resource you had to do before joining, which covered the basics. And I wish there wasn't quite such a la la land atmosphere on here, where one or two negative statements gets a thread closed down by the moderators. Being positive is good. So is being truthful.
As a newbie I have no problem with anything you said.
Seeing & answering the same silly questions for ten years would drive me up the wall too.
Speaking strictly for Americans I think the main problem is not too many travel to Spain. Many travel to Italy. We have a few that go to Ireland and well, the rest can usually be found traveling to Mexico, Hawaii & the Caribbean. Oh and also a decent amount that travel to Asia.
Also remember the US is pretty much the same size as Europe.
We spend a lot of time traveling within the country.
 
I think you strike a very good balance.

Exactly. I didn't think there were any blatant infractions that needed to be reported. Rather, people were using the forum to vent excessive anger at people mainly off the forum!

“Late to the party”, as my kids would say, this thread resonated strongly with me. I am embarrassed that I have succumbed to irritation on the Forum in my last few posts. It is no one’s fault but my own, I thought I was immune to the “crazy” of the world but was completely wrong.

It is time for me step back and attend to other things in the “real world” so I am taking an extended “digital sabbatical”.

In a peace offering upon departure, I offer a Sufi poem attributed to Hazrat Inayat Khan discovered today by serendipity and very close (IMHO) to the Camino experience:

"I asked for strength

and God gave me difficulties to make me strong.

I asked for wisdom

and God gave me problems to solve.

I asked for prosperity

and God gave me a brain and brawn to work.

I asked for courage

and God gave me dangers to overcome.

I asked for love

and God gave me troubled people to help.

I asked for favors

and God gave me opportunities…

I received nothing I wanted,

I received everything I needed."

B
 
Join the Camino cleanup. Logroño to Burgos May 2025 & Astorga to OCebreiro in June
When I first joined the forum 10 years ago, there didn't seem to be many people on it who had never been walking, never been away from home/out of state, never travelled without their spouse, never been backpacking. There seemed to be quite a mixed bag of Europeans then, who had done hiking before and were interested in the pilgrimage as a bigger, wider, more rounded experience.

There is now a definite takeover by more needy and idealistic people from outside Europe who are looking for more support and hand holding, help with making the simplest decisions, someone to look up bus and train timetables for them, someone to tell them will it be hot, what to 'do' about bed bugs, which are the 'best albergues' and the 'top picks' of places 'not to miss' and a whole lot of emotional crutch stuff. They all want to do the French way and start at SJPP 'like in the film'. They want to be told that everything will be fine, of course they will always find a bed, it's perfectly safe and the camino provides. Not that it can be unbearable at times, you will hate other pilgrims sometimes so much that you do and say bad things, and that there can be thieves and flashers.

I am helpful to the newbies out of a sense of public spirit, but really I am on the forum for selfish reasons - to read about alternative routes and cool adventures by the likes of @timr and @shawn corrigan and get ideas for my next walks.

Sorry if this sounds uncharitable, but I do honestly wish there was some kind of interactive resource you had to do before joining, which covered the basics. And I wish there wasn't quite such a la la land atmosphere on here, where one or two negative statements gets a thread closed down by the moderators. Being positive is good. So is being truthful.

not900 - not sounding uncharitable at all to these ol' ears -
and thank you for pointing to - what i happen to view as one of the most thorny of roots - the cultural flavour differences of behaviour, conduct and expression and the resulting mis-understandings / presumptions / assumptions and regular mess that can stem from that.
I really appreciate your post and comment!

just because we all communicate in english (mostly) it does not mean we understand/speak it the same way.
my english comes with the euro-continental blend of an assortment of frank, slightly wicked humour, tongue-in-cheek, forthright, and non-fluff and low-on-sweetish.
Many years ago an american woman, living in italy, married to an italian - clued me in, after my laments about some 'issues' i have had in a job. She said that my way of being/talking is perceived as "confrontational" in a place like california.
I can still hear the sound of my jaw dropping onto the floor...
she then also stated that of course, precisely that way of being/talking is perceived in europe as having an adult conversation. No one would bat an eye . or find it unusual or offensive or 'confrontational'.
Needless to say, I had a steep learning curve ...
In my observation, and to quote a dutch lady married to an american man, living here, "kids, where i grew up in holland, were raised to be truthful. kids here are raised to be nice.".
well, i am many things, but i don't believe that 'nice' (in the hallmarky-disney sort of way in which all is always working out, no cloud ever on the sky, and if ... the sun shines surely again in the next installment of life.) is one of those things/attributes.

anyway - just something to keep in mind (myself included) when cruising this forum or any other public place.

(and may i add an example in point: Judgmental.
this li'l word here is swung like a hammer of doom over your head (heaven forbid anyone would call another person judgmental - it's the kiss of death or worse) whenever one would dare to state something plain and simple and mostly, obvious.
reg that word there are nuances that do not show in english (as far as my knowledge reaches) -
in the way we learned english decades ago - judgement was used in the sense of 'assessment'.
one makes a judgement call, right? using discrimination, discernment ... and then i judge the best next step for whatever scenario.
Yet what i've experienced here alot is this judgement equal condeming/condemnation.
which is not the same thing - and not ever intended.
And if it were, my english teachers have something to answer for :)
We all judge all the time - the moment we get up: is the weather warm or cold? based on that judgement (aka assessment) we choose our wardrobe (hopefully!)
does that make us a condemmer of the weather?)
I observe here that people do not share/tell what their experience is of a certain matter, for e.g at work, for fear being called judgemental -

all this said - in this discussion about points, etc ... lets please consider the while we speak the same language, our cultural conditioning might not be the same.
makes sense ? (speaking as an english 3rd language person)
 
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I wish there wasn't quite such a la la land atmosphere on here, where one or two negative statements gets a thread closed down by the moderators. Being positive is good. So is being truthful.
I wholeheartedly agree. I am not one for la la land! One or two negative statements shouldn't get a thread closed down, as long as those statements are expressed with fact and courtesy.
Yet what i've experienced here alot is this judgement equal condeming/condemnation. which is not the same thing - and not ever intended.
Again, I agree! We weigh the facts/evidence and our values/priorities, and make judgements all the time. As, I think, we should.
 
The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
I wholeheartedly agree. I am not one for la la land! One or two negative statements shouldn't get a thread closed down, as long as those statements are expressed with fact and courtesy.

Again, I agree! We weigh the facts/evidence and our values/priorities, and make judgements all the time. As, I think, we should.
Where is the love button for this one as well?
 
not900 - not sounding uncharitable at all to these ol' ears -
and thank you for pointing to - what i happen to view as one of the most thorny of roots - the cultural flavour differences of behaviour, conduct and expression and the resulting mis-understandings / presumptions / assumptions and regular mess that can stem from that.
I really appreciate your post and comment!

just because we all communicate in english (mostly) it does not mean we understand/speak it the same way.
my english comes with the euro-continental blend of an assortment of frank, slightly wicked humour, tongue-in-cheek, forthright, and non-fluff and low-on-sweetish.
@amorfati1 A very helpful analysis of what goes on when people communicate in shared second or third languages.

Many years ago, living in Rome, I took part in a weekly "group session", in English, (it is not really relevant what it was about) but only three of us out of 15 were native English speakers, and we three came from three different continents. Everyone had "good" English. But still a lot (like 75%) of the time each week was spent trying to establish what people were really saying. THAT was the most useful learning of the whole endeavour, making the subject matter almost irrelevant.

And of course it made me at least conscious of how people interpreted me when I tried to function in Italian, or KiSwahili.

Years later, for many years, I chaired a large monthly academic/business meeting, in English, in an African country. About 35 people, all fluent in English for functional purposes, again only one British-English native speaker, and three or four native speakers of other flavours of English. My memories of Rome helped me to deal with the frustrations which could have otherwise been endlessly annoying.

But here's the thing. I think one of the difficulties is that of all written communication, especially short statements. It is largely stripped of non-verbal communication. There is no font for irony. Emoticons are better than nothing, but they are not very subtle, and not everyone understands them the same way.

Compare the situation around a common table along the Camino, in a restaurant of albergue. Some people are tired and irritable, with burning or weeping feet. Some people bear a look of horror, or defeat, as the maestro (or maestra) of snoring they thought they had escaped from is seen to be in "their" albergue. Again! The vegans are weary of trying to explain that they are human like everyone else. ;):D:p Even the most committed of carnivores have had all the lomo de cerdo they need for a lifetime. Not everyone is in a good space.

What happens? Generally I think people do not get snarky(US), pernickety(UK) or persnickety(US). Partly this is due to bonhomie and goodwill. But I think in large part it is due to being able to see each other. There are, I think, still endless misunderstandings. But they are fun. When you see how people are behaving when they talk it makes a big difference. It is a truism to say that non-verbal communication is important, but that doesn't stop it's being true. We can help each other out. We can tease out the meaning. We don't get hung up on one word, which sounds strong or offensive. Look at someone talking on a phone, (not skyping) and you will see people still raising their eyebrows and waving their hands etc etc.

Many times I have seen people on this forum respond to a particular word, used in a slightly strange way. (I read one the other day, an old one, which went on for ages and ages of slanging, backwards and forwards). I don't think it often helps to intervene. Sometimes it does.

Can I sum up. I think it is easy (for me as much as anyone ) to jump to an erroneous conclusion of the intended communication when I am presented with only text on a page or screen. Could the person have been speaking tongue-in-cheek? What is said in pure fun on one side of the transaction can sound very sarcastic on the other.

So I will throw in my lot with the "take a breath" and "count to a 100" brigade. I was beginning to wonder if there was "something in the water" lately. :D:p [And yes I have tried to use extra expressions which not everyone will understand - to show that it is easy to confuse people.]
 
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3rd Edition. More content, training & pack guides avoid common mistakes, bed bugs etc
Judgemental versus personal attack.

From a moderator's point of view while I understand the point amorfati made about different nations interacting with each other in different ways there is a core foundation of this forum which is - getting along with one another. This does not mean I have to agree with what you say but in disagreeing I make my point and do not attack you.

Judgemental is on the borderline because one is saying my point of view is right and yours wrong. This may be true in some black and white instances but in matters such as mode of transport, religion, where you stay in my opinion there is no right or wrong answer. And the use of sarcastic passive-aggressive comments like "its their Camino" does not help.

That is why I think that threads like this are useful from time to time so that we can talk about how we get along and remember to be a little more tolerant than we might at first reaction.
 
There is now a definite takeover by more needy and idealistic people from outside Europe who are looking for more support and hand holding, help with making the simplest decisions, someone to look up bus and train timetables for them, someone to tell them will it be hot, what to 'do' about bed bugs, which are the 'best albergues' and the 'top picks' of places 'not to miss' and a whole lot of emotional crutch stuff. They all want to do the French way and start at SJPP 'like in the film'. They want to be told that everything will be fine, of course they will always find a bed, it's perfectly safe and the camino provides. Not that it can be unbearable at times, you will hate other pilgrims sometimes so much that you do and say bad things, and that there can be thieves and flashers.

I am quoting this section of a post from @notion900 because it obviously struck a chord of with others who signalled, either by 'liking' or by subsequent posts, that they agreed with the content. Might it be useful at this point, and especially in light of why @C clearly created the thread, to remember how Ivar set out his forum's 'mission statement' - Where past pilgrims share and future pilgrims learn. Note that 'pilgrims' is a word used twice, and Ivar has never seen fit to change the word to traveller, walker, trekker. Also there is no suggestion that newbies might have to pass a test on their skills in negotiating the website before posting questions - although there are some posts that I agree might usefully be included in an introduction to the forum. I have to disagree with you @notion900 about there being a 'takeover' of the forum it belongs to Ivar and any other claim to ownership would be spurious nor would I characterise anyone posting as 'needy'. Learning the accepted vocabulary can be a necessary part of learning how to become an active, respected member of a community, but as we all know from the struggles to retain languages such as Breton, Welsh, Galician, Catalan etc. etc. having a dominant group within a group set the terms for the appropriate vocabulary that will qualify the person for membership is, in my view to make people taking those first tentative steps to making a post feel unwelcome. There is a difference between being judgemental or elitist; the difference is important as the latter seeks to discriminate and in some cases exclude. I am often grumpy, I don't live in la-la land (whatever that is), I have often 'liked' posts I later regretted because I hadn't waited to see the wider context. What I have learned from you all on this forum is precious to me, but maintaining a welcome and remembering what Ivar set out to do has to be the bottom line. There is always Facebook and PMs to enable other kinds of conversation.
Finally, @amorfati1's post raises the question of interesting and sometime problematic cultural differences. Honesty is good, causing offence to another because of ill-considered expression of honesty is simply rude.
 
When I first joined the forum 10 years ago, there didn't seem to be many people on it who had never been walking, never been away from home/out of state, never travelled without their spouse, never been backpacking. There seemed to be quite a mixed bag of Europeans then, who had done hiking before and were interested in the pilgrimage as a bigger, wider, more rounded experience.

There is now a definite takeover by more needy and idealistic people from outside Europe who are looking for more support and hand holding, help with making the simplest decisions, someone to look up bus and train timetables for them, someone to tell them will it be hot, what to 'do' about bed bugs, which are the 'best albergues' and the 'top picks' of places 'not to miss' and a whole lot of emotional crutch stuff. They all want to do the French way and start at SJPP 'like in the film'. They want to be told that everything will be fine, of course they will always find a bed, it's perfectly safe and the camino provides. Not that it can be unbearable at times, you will hate other pilgrims sometimes so much that you do and say bad things, and that there can be thieves and flashers.

I am helpful to the newbies out of a sense of public spirit, but really I am on the forum for selfish reasons - to read about alternative routes and cool adventures by the likes of @timr and @shawn corrigan and get ideas for my next walks.

Sorry if this sounds uncharitable, but I do honestly wish there was some kind of interactive resource you had to do before joining, which covered the basics. And I wish there wasn't quite such a la la land atmosphere on here, where one or two negative statements gets a thread closed down by the moderators. Being positive is good. So is being truthful.

Well spoken notion900. No worries, you sound extremly sane to me.

Although I'm not on the forum to find alternative routes and cool adventures - I can find them out for myself.

You do speak me out of the heart.

The forum does indeed often come across as a la la land (no exmples stated, I don't want to hurt anyone) and yes, it often seems that that more non Europeans are for some reason in need to be reassured about just about eveything.

Way back in the day when I started treking, you packed your Rucksack and headed west and you learned your lessons as you went.

Now sometimes it feels it's all about handholding.

The mods do a difficult job,

They are sitting between exteme conservative and extreme liberal views and have to do the best they can. - They dont always get it right
 
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Join the Camino cleanup. Logroño to Burgos May 2025 & Astorga to OCebreiro in June
I am quoting this section of a post from @notion900 because it obviously struck a chord of with others who signalled, either by 'liking' or by subsequent posts, that they agreed with the content. Might it be useful at this point, and especially in light of why @C clearly created the thread, to remember how Ivar set out his forum's 'mission statement' - Where past pilgrims share and future pilgrims learn. Note that 'pilgrims' is a word used twice, and Ivar has never seen fit to change the word to traveller, walker, trekker. Also there is no suggestion that newbies might have to pass a test on their skills in negotiating the website before posting questions - although there are some posts that I agree might usefully be included in an introduction to the forum. I have to disagree with you @notion900 about there being a 'takeover' of the forum it belongs to Ivar and any other claim to ownership would be spurious nor would I characterise anyone posting as 'needy'. Learning the accepted vocabulary can be a necessary part of learning how to become an active, respected member of a community, but as we all know from the struggles to retain languages such as Breton, Welsh, Galician, Catalan etc. etc. having a dominant group within a group set the terms for the appropriate vocabulary that will qualify the person for membership is, in my view to make people taking those first tentative steps to making a post feel unwelcome. There is a difference between being judgemental or elitist; the difference is important as the latter seeks to discriminate and in some cases exclude. I am often grumpy, I don't live in la-la land (whatever that is), I have often 'liked' posts I later regretted because I hadn't waited to see the wider context. What I have learned from you all on this forum is precious to me, but maintaining a welcome and remembering what Ivar set out to do has to be the bottom line. There is always Facebook and PMs to enable other kinds of conversation.
Finally, @amorfati1's post raises the question of interesting and sometime problematic cultural differences. Honesty is good, causing offence to another because of ill-considered expression of honesty is simply rude.

So well said, SEB. Always good to go back to the mission and mission statement.

Here at Pilgrim House we see all sorts of pilgrims from all over the world. Some aren't familiar with the iPad and need a bit of extra assistance on it. Some need a map of Santiago and for us to show them where the new Pilgrim's Office is. Some need assistance calling a place in Spanish. People need different things at different times. Yet are super resourceful in other areas that I might not be.

@notion900 and @Shakespearshakes, I have to disagree with you on the non-European vs. European thing - I've seen all sorts of nationalities need all sorts of help (and reassurance) in different areas. I'd be very cautious broadly generalizing what non-Europeans are like vs. what Europeans are like. To paint in such wide brushstrokes is really not helpful, especially on such a diverse forum as this one.

I think when we start characterizing someone as "needy" or needing "handholding", we denigrate them. My version of "needing help" may be "needing handholding" to you - who's to say? As I said before, if you really don't feel like answering a question and getting involved in someone's search for answers, don't get involved - no problem.

I stumbled upon this post written by @Viranani from May 19, 2016 - almost exactly a year ago. She expresses herself well and it's worth another read:

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...xpectations-and-other-petty-annoyances.40743/

Buen Camino to all on the trail right now.
Faith
 
Going back to the original poster's comment about harshness and anger, I'd personally rather read a few well written rants about trespassing rather than people inanely fretting about whether they can bring coffee in from their home country.

Or how many toilet rolls they should bring with them!
 
A selection of Camino Jewellery
Of course we don't have to read what is of no interest to us - the thread title usually signals the subject matter accurately - but there is never a reason to call someone out for an 'inane' post. As for people travelling from outside Europe, well I have the greatest admiration for the effort involved in making such journeys. @Shakespearshakes and @notion900 you are both experienced travellers but others are not and for some of them it is a step into the void where every reassurance is sought (with many on this forum happy to offer it), often because it is not a journey that involves just the pilgrim her/himself, it might also necessitate making quite involved prior arrangements for others to take over caring responsibilities temporarily.

As @C clearly said at the end of the opening post on this thread, "Maybe we can ease off a bit."
 
non Europeans are for some reason in need to be reassured about just about eveything.
It isn't that strange, is it, given that the non-Europeans have much further to travel, and go to Europe less frequently, and are less familiar with how things work in the EU? We can't hop to Paris for a weekend, or to Spain on a budget airline. Those who are English speakers enjoy the community here on the forum, and sometimes do ask trivial questions. Maybe there is a bit of cultural difference there in the way we chat, but that could be considered a positive thing. As I've said before, I am no angel when it comes to my response, and I roll my eyes :rolleyes: at times. But I do try to reflect on my attitude and recognize that it is not always admirable.
 
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I get all that. But if I was going to New York or Chicago for the weekend, I wouldn't post on a respected travel forum 'Can someone please tell me how to get from the bus station to my hotel, and will there be bed bugs, and should I pack a third pair of underpants and some tea bags? Do the streets have the names clearly marked in case I get lost? Can I use my card in an ATM, and will I be mugged? Btw I am really scared :('. I would do some research and post a few more specific and sensible questions.
 
Get a spanish phone number with Airalo. eSim, so no physical SIM card. Easy to use app to add more funds if needed.
Give it up notion900 .

I agree with you 100%. But sometimes the willow is stronger than the oak.

It is indeed frustrating when someone asks how long they need to exit an Airport. Or how to recognize when they are in a village.

Questions, if we had them, we would never have dreamed to ask of strangers,

As @SEB mentioned we earned our stripes without help.

Take a deep breath and prepare for the next question.
 
Geeez...
Let's take a break from this subject.
A thread about rudeness, personal remarks and anger on the forum.... has become a textbook case of what the OP described.

It appears the the downhill slide is speeding up.
The thread is closed for now.

Thanks to those who chose to not participate in the angst.
 
Train for your next Camino on California's Santa Catalina Island March 16-19
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