winter camino - heavy bag - HELP!

[sotirod]

Hi! I'm new here, and have been digging through the forums pretty much non-stop for the past few days.

I'm walking the camino in February/March of next year. I'm aiming at that magic number of 10% of my body weight...except that that only gives me 12 pounds to play with. And I'm just not sure how to do that when packing for a winter walk.

Just for cold weather gear alone, I'm thinking that I need:

2 pairs of merino wool long underwear (tops and bottoms - one for walking, one for sleeping): 550 grams
a lightweight down jacket (I get cold easily): 300 grams
wool cap and gloves: 150 grams
sleeping bag rated to -5: 900 grams (it was the lightest one I could find in my price range)
lightweight breathable waterproof jacket and rain trousers (very light, not sure how they'll do in heavy winds): 500 grams
fleece sweater: 250 grams

So that alone adds up to 5.8 pounds! Add in my bag (33l, 2.5 pounds) and my boots (haven't bought them yet, but they seem to average about 2 pounds), and I'm already over 10 pounds. That's not including my clothes (the wool undershirts will be my shirts, but I'll still need pants, socks, underwear), toileteries (i know, small and sparse is best), any other gear, water and food.

And now - of course, because I already have way too much weight - I'm thinking that maybe I should get an altus raincoat as well. While my light rain jacket will hold up in regular rain, I'm just picturing myself in a freezing cold, windy downpour. Maybe the heavier altus would be best in a winter rainstorm. While I'm pretty tough overall, I get cold easily. I know that staying warm (or at least warmish) will be key to me doing this.

Any recommendations for the absolute essentials for a cold-weather trek? Can anyone share any tips that might help me keep my total weight - including what I'm wearing - at under 15 pounds?

Thanks!

 

[methodist.pilgrim.98]

I hesitate to talk about winter gear because though I have walked in December I have not got into the colder months of January/February. I walked early March in 2012 and it was not too bad.

The secret to staying warm is layers so I would advise a proper, rainproof coat such as a Berghaus. I would then wear a fleece over a shirt and warmers. A poncho would add another layer.

That might reduce the number of tops you are acrrying.

Remeber that most of us do not count the weight of the clothes we have on our body while we are walking; it is what is in the rucksack that needs to be kept to the 10% of weight.

In November most of my clothing was on my body and not in my rucksack.

As someone with heart condition and diabetic I understand about the cold. If you cannot get the weight you are carrying down to what you can bear then you might have ot consider walking at another time.

 

[Peronel]

I think the downside of traveling in winter is that your pack is of neccessity heavier. Even in April, I was sometimes struggling to get laundry dry (not all albergues have inside drying space, and thing don't dry in cold damp rooms) so you may need an extra shirt and pair of socks because of that. Also plan a way to keep wet clothes seperate from dry in your pack - I didn't, which was sometimes a problem.

 

[andy.d]

I think winter walking means a heavier pack. You may also want to think about more spare clothing to replace anything that has got wet (and which won't keep you warm).

Buen Camino

Andy

 

[sotirod]

Thanks so much for the quick replies! Walking at a later date isn't an option. It's either February of next year, or it's some hazy future date that may or may not ever happen. So February it is!

methodist.pilgrim.98 - so would you recommend an altus in addition to the rain jacket/trousers, then? I haven't bought the rain jacket yet. I may end up choosing a heavier, more rugged one. I figure that I'll probably be wearing about 5 pounds of gear (boots, clothes, jackets), and if I can keep my bag at 10 pounds, it'll make a total of 15 pounds. That sounds reasonable.

Peronel - I usually pack everything in gallon-sized ziplocs, so that should separate the wet from the dry. Do you think that two sets of clothes (long johns, long-sleeved shirts, pants) and three sets of socks (liners and wool socks) will be enough? I figure that - since I'm using merino wool - I won't be so stinky that I'll need to wash it every day.

Andy - how much spare clothing? Would you recommend 3 merino wool shirts rather than 2?

Thanks!

 

[mspath]

sotirod,

Welcome to the Forum!

Any season can be a wonderful time to walk, but in winter you MUST be prepared for varied weather. Nights can be extremely cold with freezing rain or snow. Learn to read the sky for possible storms and take every precaution.

Not all albergues will be open, but the welcome at those albergues which are is often most sincere. Most will usually be heated and/or have blankets. Generally the hospitaleros know who is open on the next stage.

Twice during winter caminos I have sat out true blizzards; in Villafranca Montes de Oca, February 25, 26, 2006 and Foncebadón, March 5,6, 2009. You can see the snow and read my blog accounts at >> http://mermore.blogspot.fr/2011/04/aavmo.html and http://mermore.blogspot.fr/2011/04/aafon.html. Luckily during both storms open albergues offered welcoming shelter.

For all my caminos in late autumn or winter

I wear--
muffler, woolly hat, gloves
thin waterproof jacket
runner's tights
short sleeve technical undershirt
long sleeve technical over-shirt
gaiters for snow
hiking boots with inner soles
underwear
hiking socks
money-belt with passport and credit card
walking stick

I carry--
30 liter backpack with waterproof cover
sleeping bag and liner
poncho
polar jacket/fleece
second pair runner's tights
second short sleeve technical tee shirt
second long sleeve technical tee shirt
long sleeve thermal undershirt
2 sets underwear
second pair hiking socks
pair night socks
sandals for relaxing
basic toiletries and medicines, small sizes
towel, small and thin (a seersucker dish towel!)
diary, pen
headlight,
1 liter water bottle,
food bag with -
..tea bags,
..some instant soup packs
..firm cheese
..chocolate
..waterproof matches
..plastic utensils and cup
water heating coil
Nokia N82 cellphone and charger,
...has good 5mp camera
...doubles as a computer for writing blog

total weight 6.5 kilos!!

Remember BE PREPARED!

Happy planning,

Margaret Meredith

 

[methodist.pilgrim.98]

The upside is that in February/March albergues are more likely to have heat on than in the "milder" April.

I actually had few problems getting stuff dry in those months because the radiators were on whereas when I walked in April they weren't.

I have also had to pull on damp clothes from the previous day to keep one set dry. Chaffing was an issue, but not seriously.

Having looked again at your post I notice that you intend to carry a 33litre rucksack. I have one and used it no problems in May/June but it was not big enough for the November.December. March trip.

Don't panic and don't give up but maybe rethink what is essential.

If you start training now - and build up slowly - you can also increase your body strength.

Remember that you will not need to carry large amounts of food for many of the Camino sections as there are plenty of places to eat. High energy ration bars are available at a lot of supermarkets/shops and are lightweight but full of carbs.

Ditto the amount of water you have to carry. You should fill up with hot drinks whenever you can at the bars to help keep you warm.

Edit: I wear a Berghaus raincoat. It has no name but is 100% polyester shell bonded to Gore-tex membrane. Rugged? You bet. Heavy but worth it.

I did not walk with an altus poncho in November - it was an 8€ cheapo - but I would certainly consider having an altus over the raincoat. a decent shop should allow you to try both coat and poncho on for weight. The altus I saw in Sarria was reasonably light - its prime purpose was to keep the rain off.

 

[mspath]

Here is some further info for planning your future winter camino.

Sillydoll who is a Forum member has compiled encyclopedic information on Winter Walking at >> http://amawalker.blogspot.com/ Another good account of winter walking by a Forum member is the current 2013 blog http://agoodwalkunspoiled.blogspot.com/.

When you are walking be sure to ask the locals and watch TV reports and weather forecasts regarding the state of the path. In bad weather many steep descents on the camino would be treacherous and following smaller parallel roads might be necessary. For example the stretch from Najera to Santo Domingo de la Calzada or across the Montes de Oca from Villafranca. Read the invaluable information provided most recently on blizzard conditions this March in this Forum topic >> el-camino-frances/topic16961.html.

One never knows in advance what the weather will actually be; you might be lucky and enjoy an early spring!

Margaret Meredith

 

[Mysticl]

The way I look at it, the 10% rule is applied only to your pack ... your skin out weight will be more depending on what you are wearing ... so that means your coat will likely be worn ... one pair of socks, pants, long underwear, hiking boots, etc ... which considerably decreases the weight in your pack ... altho not on your feet ...

My skin out weight meaning everything in the pack and whatever I am wearing (or in my belt pouches which I include in my "on body weight") is about 12% but I have heard that anything up to 15% is acceptable but less is better ... my current estimated pack weight is just under 9 kg which is less than 10% for me including an allowance for 1.5 L of water and 500g for food and will likely be lower by the time I leave as I swap out current items for lighter weight options or swap them out altogether ... I am a big girl so i can theoretically carry more if you go by my body weight ... but that doesn't exactly make me happy ... I'm working on it.

Using the "skin out" 12-15% idea should give you more play ... and still be doable hopefully.

 

[newfydog]

Anyone hardy enough to do it in winter should be hardy enough to excede the 10%. On extended winter ski camping trips I haul 20%. I don't love the big pack, but I still enjoy the trip.

 

[sotirod]

mspath - thank you so much for the info and the packing list. Very valuable stuff...I appreciate the help. I'll definitely check out those links. And I'm impressed with your 6.5 pounds! You've given me something to aim for!

methodist.pilgrim.98 - I'm not quite ready to give up on my 33l pack. If I have to, I will, but I'm hoping that I can make it work. Otherwise, I'll have to buy a bigger bag, and I'd rather use what I already have. I'm definitely rethinking my rain jacket. The one I have works, but it's pretty light...I might have to level up. I will have the down coat beneath it for insulation, though. re: the altus poncho, I think I might just get it. If I need it, then I think I'll really, really appreciate it. If I don't need it...well, I can always send it home!

mysticl - thanks for the feedback. That makes sense. I was wondering if the 10% was for pack only, or for all weight. I think I'm going to do some number crunching and see if i can make 15 pounds work.

newfydog - true. I've schlepped around heavy bags in the past...and at least I won't have to carry a tent. I'd just like to keep the weight as minimal as reasonable, so that I can get more out of the experience.

 

[methodist.pilgrim.98]

You will probably be sweating while walking.

What will that do to the down coat? If it gets wet will it dry quickly?

Something to be considered.

If you can get everything you want to carry into your 33litre then briliant. Maybe the thing to do is say, this is what I am carrying, what can I live without if necessary?

 

[Peronel]

I think I probably woukd take an extra wool shirt, especially if I were willing to ditch it if it turned out to be unneccessary weight.

You can get coats which are effectively down jackets but are stuffed with a synthetic instead of down. They're not quite as warm and light, but they remain warm when wet and dry in moments. And they're machine washable. Might be worth looking in to?

As a trade-off, I'd consider going with a less warm sleeping bag. You're not outside in a tent and, if you are cold, you can wear that merino shirt and insulated coat inside it.

I found ziplock bags didn't last the full six weeks. sea to summit make stuffsacs which are superb.

Take all this with a pinch of salt - my camino was April/May.

 

[methodist.pilgrim.98]

I think Peronel and I are singing from the same hymn sheet.

Buying a great quality waterproof and windproof coat - which my Bergahus is - may well save you having to take an extra top. I now take a North Face scarf which is ultra light weight but keeps my chest very, very warm.

I will not pretend that there were moments in March 2012 when I was not cold, but it was not excessive and the walking did help!

Given the rucksack is on your back that will add heat retention.

A poncho will do the same.

I got my 65l rucksack down to 7kg just by saying, I can live without this, though I carried an extra 1kg in a shoulder bag and I then had to add a 1kg for the litre of water I carried.

It would be worth your while spending some time in a quality hiking/mountaineering shop and seeing what is available.

Good luck is based on good planning and you have nearly a year to look at and consider your options.

 

[Magnara]

My husband and I walked January and February. You have to be smart about what you take to make sure you are safe, but we worked it out. The big plus about it is that you have the track to yourself - we only met a handful of other pilgrims along the way. Another good thing is that you don't get so hot We worke the same clothes each day for days on end and the same other clothes in the evening for days on end, without needing to wash. We washed socks every day, and changed them at midday every day as well. We each carried a 35 l pack. This is our list plus a few hints. I hope it is useful to you.


We walked in the winter (starting December 27). Summer might require cooler clothes, eg no headband or gloves and short sleeves. But if you are walking in winter, be aware that it was a mild winter in Europe and we did not get temperatures much below freezing, in a more normal winter you might need more warmth (we sent on our thick thermals).

When you walk, you warm up, even in winter, so light clothing is good. I mostly walked just in a fine wool long sleeved t-shirt.

In general terms, choose everything small, lightweight wherever possible.

Minimise weight doing things like clip nails before leaving and buy clippers en route and then throw them away

There are plenty of grocery shops and pharmacies to buy common items eg vaselina, compeed, tissues, nurofen (ibuprofen)

You don’t absolutely need a guidebook, but John Brierley’s was an invaluable and interesting companion along the way. I highly recommend it.

You will need to personally carry some of the “Theirs” items if you are walking alone. We were able to share them. Water weighs 1 kg per litre.

We sent on and gave away some things after we had been walking a few days. You don’t need much. Life is so simple and a light pack makes for a happy walker.

I washed every night, usually just socks and sometimes tops.

For long periods I wore one set of clothes for day and one for evening. This minimises washing.

When you pack, put the heavy things at the bottom (eg sleeping bag) so your hips carry the weight.

I carried:
Hers

Aarn Featherlite 35 litre Freedom backpack
Sleeping bag

Silk long johns and top (for pyjamas and occasional extra warmth), 1 set (NZNature Co brand, bought mail order)
Ultra fine merino wool (Hedrena brand):
- single weight slacks, 2 pairs
- undies, 2 pairs
Ultra fine merino wool (Kathmandu brand):
- Long sleeved t-shirts, 2
Bridgedale wool hiking socks, 4 pairs
Anklet stocking sox, 2 pairs
Elastic knee support, 1 (two would have been good)
1 bra
1 small polyester pretty scarf, when I wanted to look nicer some evenings (we stayed a a few nice hotels along the way)
1 pair earrings, worn all the time
Reading glasses and lightweight case
Sunglasses (not used)
Headlamp
Polar Fleece headband
Sleeveless Polar Fleece shell
Goretex 2 layer jacket
Goretex waterproof caving gloves
Akubra hat
Waterproof breathable overpants
Short gaiters
2 Trekking poles
Shoe horn
Randonnee Proof leather hiking boots
Running shoes (only used in the evening, to give my feet a rest)

In small containers:
- Moisturiser
- Face cleanser
- All purpose detergent
Small toothbrush
Small microfibre towel
Tissues
Cotton buds
1 tiny, thin washcloth
2 nappy (diaper) pins
Sponge bag (drawstring plastic bag to hold bathroom items)
Deodorant

Nurofen
Antihistamine
Vaseline
Saline nose spray
Citravescent
lip salve
tweezers
emery board

notebook and ballpoint pen

Small digital camera

In an inside pocket of my jacket
- emergency money
- one credit card
- info on bank accounts
- credit card cancellation info
- list of credit cards carried
- travel insurance info
- flight info



He carried:
His
Aarn 35 litre Featherlite Freedom backpack and 2 balance packs
Sleeping bag
Travel pillow

Chargers for Ipod, MP3 player, camera, 3G phone
Device to download photos from camera to Ipod
Adaptor plug
Swiss army knife
Sports watch with alarm, stopwatch, compass
Randonee Proof Leather hiking boots
Running shoes and bag
Running socks
Goretex 2 layer jacket

Specific post-operative pain control and doctor’s explanatory letter
Sleeping pills
Acid stomach medicine
Eye drops

Polar Fleece headband
Goretex waterproof caving gloves
Document carrier with:
- passports
- credencials
- credit cards
- money
- list of flights and accommodation
- pen
Headlight
Glasses and lens cloth
Sunglasses and case
Medium size microfibre towel
Silk handkerchief
Small toothbrush
Razor and replaceable blades

Hi tech clothes:
- 2 pr undies
- 4 pr Coolmax socks
- 2 pr Coolmax sock liners
- 1 pr trousers
- 1 pr shorts
- 2 shirts
Polypropylene undershirt and long johns
Polar fleece sleeveless shell

Waterproof breathable overpants
Short gaiters
Akubra hat
1 Trekking pole

We split this: (he carried 3kg more weight, mostly water, so used balance packs in front)
Theirs
Collapsible 2.5 litre water bottle
Hotel sewing kit
Twisted elastic travel clothesline
Half a tube of child size toothpaste
Bandaids and Compeeds
Antibiotic cream
Anti-diarrhoea medicine
Anti-cramping medicine
Foam mat
Gel heel inserts in case of heel spurs

Food for the day , usually including chocolate, bread, cheese, wine
2 forks, knives, spoons

John Brierley guide book

 

[sotirod]

What a helpful forum this is. Thank you so much to everyone who's taken the time to answer. It's much appreciated! And now the balancing act begins...weight and cost, weight and cost.

methodist.pilgrim.98 - what you said about the down coat makes a lot of sense. I'm trying to keep costs down, which is why I was leaning towards the cheaper down, but maybe a synthetic is the best way to go, after all. You've definitely convinced me to buy a heavier rain/wind jacket...thanks for that!

Peronel - I'm actually considering a lighter sleeping bag. The one that I have (have had for ages!) is rated to -5C and weighs 866 g. The one I'm looking at is rated to +2C and weighs 455. Coupled with a silk liner and a pair of wool long johns, that would probably do me just fine. Of course, it'll cost me more than using the one I already have. I've traveled in the past using ziplocs for up to six months, and yes, some of them do break - although I find they work well overall. But I might go with dry bags this year...they'll add a few grams, but I won't have to worry about them ripping.

Magnara - thanks for posting your packing list! It's very helpful! I'm actually trying to decide if I should bring any t-shirts at all. I wasn't planning on it, but everyone's packing list includes a couple, so I'm rethinking that now.

 

[methodist.pilgrim.98]

I only take two shirts. one on, the other washed/drying/spare.

I sleep in the shirt I am going to wear the next day. That way you do not need to carry extra clothing.

I hope to go in April so it will be 2 quick drying walking shirts (one on), 2 thermal tops (one on).

If the weather was warmer I wouldn't bother with the thermals.

It does have its drawbacks but it cuts down the weight.

(I am not expecting any peregrina to be snuggling up to me and wondering about the smell! As long as I am not too wiffy I can live with it.)

 

[JohnnieWalker]

I agree with MP about down clothing - in wet weather they are worse than useless. If they get wet, as they inevitably will all insulating quality is lost and they are very difficult to dry. My experience is that they are impossible to keep dry particularly under a waterproof outer shell because of consdensation.

 

[sotirod]

Thanks again for the advice. I know that I'm trying to figure out this packing thing far in advance, but lightweight gear isn't cheap...the budget requires that I pick up things slowly, as I see sales. Besides, it's hard not to get obsessed about such things when there's nothing else that you can do this far in advance. Staying fit and saving money are slow processes that have to be done over time - but I can make a packing list RIGHT NOW. Haha!

JohnnieWalker: the down jacket is no longer on my list. I actually found a very light synthetic insulated jacket (233 grams) for a comparable price, so I'm happy with that.

methodist.pilgrim.98 - I think the "wear one, carry one" with no extras is the only way that I'll be able to keep the weight down.

So here's what I'm thinking for clothes:

bottom: merino wool long johns, lightweight quick-dry trousers
top: merino wool long-sleeved shirt, lightweight technical mid-layer (probably polartek)

I'll wear one full set and carry one full set.

Depending on the weather, I'll have several layers that I can add, all of them fairly lightweight: insulated jacket, waterproof breathable jacket, waterproof breathable rain pants, altus poncho

(Yes, I'm planning on carrying a rainjacket and rainpants and an altus. And maybe even short gaiters, too. I'm tough...except when it comes to cold! I haven't fully decided on the altus, though...at 450 grams, it's pretty heavy.)

And also a buff, a wool cap, a wide-brimmed hat and a pair of waterproof gloves. Oh, and one technical t-shirt, in case it gets warm.

And of course, on my feet, 2 pairs of socks and a pair of hiking shoes/boots. Liner socks are the only things that I plan on bringing 3 of (one on, two in pack).

I think that with this clothing list, a super lightweight pack (I'm thinking either an Osprey Talon 33 or an OMM 32l) and a lighter sleeping bag (under 500 grams), I should be able to keep my FSO weight at about 15%, and my pack weight at under 7 kg.

 

[methodist.pilgrim.98]

equipment-questions/topic15074.html

Falcon gives some advice on the packa poncho which on another thread said he quite liked apart from its shortness.

He's over 6 foot so depending on your height it might be worth checking out.

As someone who is part pensioner I absolutely agree about buying when its in the sale, as long as you really need it.

 

[Peronel]

Sounds good.

I took the talon 33 and loved it. There's something about osprey packs - they just feel right.