Why has "No Money" topic pilgrim created such controversy?

[Priscillian]

As most of you know I love to stir things up, and "Matron" has been quite absent for a while. But - and I admit this is from a writer/researcher´s point of view though I PROMISE you I would not use any of your responses without your very expressed permission - I am fascinated that a seemingly innocent post concerning a future pilgrim who says he wishes to walk the pilgrim "with no money" (despite claiming being able to pay his way) would have created such a massive response in a short a time!
I am contemplating right now writing a "in between" book about a man who gave up what most of us would consider the "normal" life to create a garden in stone, and who lived in a concrete hut by the sea, wearing nothing but a loincloth year round just 9 kilometers from The Little Fox House, at the "Museo" do Aleman in Camelle (Google Manfred Gnädinger).
I don´t want to take away from "Jim"´s post, so please comment there if that is more approapriate, but my question is this:
What is a "True Pilgrim...! :lol:
No, seriously...
What is it about this post that has got so many knickers in a twist!!!!!!!

 

[oursonpolaire]

My initial feeling, and this is why I did not post until later in the thread, was that we had a case of a self-centred drama queen who was happy to take advantage of the generosity of the Spanish people along the way. After reflection and reading his blog and a series of posts, I concluded that this was not the case, but that he may have got things wrong (as I laid out in my post, which folks can look at if they are really interested).

Many of us are so grateful for the hospitality that we experienced along the way, and are aware of the economic situation which is affecting so many Spanish, that his post might have touched a sensitive nerve. One of the lessons/gifts of the Camino is how to accept and receive-- as a Canadian this is something which I found a challenge-- and perhaps we want to see this happen with less fanfare than Jim originally posted. Perhaps, as others have suggested, it would be useful to see what he would write on his return.

Or at least that's my viewpoint. I didn't answer your question "What is a true pilgrim," but I don't think that there is an answer. Feel free to use my contribution, for what it's worth

 

[AJ]

I didn't answer your question "What is a true pilgrim," but I don't think that there is an answer.

I agree that there is no answer without first answering the question: "What is the purpose of pilgrimage?" I expect there are lots of answers to this second (or should it be first) question!

 

[Deleted member 3000]

qwerty

 

[Rebekah Scott]

Maybe some of us are fed-up with self-absorbed drama queens. They take advantage of others´kindness and dress-up their ego-trips as charity or science or haplessness.
There seem to be quite a few of these around lately. They wear on you after a while.

 

[MichaelB10398]

A "true" pilgrim is a bit of a misnomer. What is meant by being "true". A pilgrim, in the context of the Camino, is one who visits a shrine or holy place. If one left their house, walked a part of the Camino, and visited a holy place, you are there as a true pilgrim.

However, I suspect that one is attempting to define what makes a pilgrim better, more proper, acceptable, etc. This is a matter of degrees and personal objectives. Some feel the need to walk every step of the Way while others sense no compunction to avoid a bus, taxi, etc. They are comfortable jumping ahead, going back, leaving the path for a new path or to seek out another holy place only to return later.

The fellow who admits he has a problem with asking for help and is going on Camino with no money in order to learn to ask for help while having plenty of money is just, imho, a little off in his thinking. For those of us who love the Camino and feel that the Camino is larger than we are individually, sense a betrayal of sorts with this individual's objectives. When so many serve selflessly, this man is seen as abusing that service. He could just as easily have chosen to bring his money, ask for assistance, and then paid it back sevenfold each time service was given.

In brief, his planned actions appear so self-centered that he offends many of us. There was no concern for others, no forgetting of self, no submission to that which is greater than us all.

If he goes will he be a real pilgrim? If he visits a holy place, he will be; but, he will have missed so much of what the Camino offers. On the other hand, he may arrive on Camino, realize that his initial objectives are not worthwhile and then choose to become part of the Camino rather than continue to try to make the Camino meet his personal desires.

 

[TerryB]

Thank you Ping, I fully agree with your definition and the reason for so much 'disquiet'!
I dug out my translation of the official "Compostela" document:-

"The Chapter of this Holy Apostolic Metropolitan Cathedral of St. James, custodian of the seal of St. James' Altar, to all the faithful and pilgrims who come from everywhere in the world as an act of devotion, under vow or promise to the Apostle's Tomb, our Patron and Protector of Spain, witnesses in the sight of all who read this document, that ............................has visited devoutly this Sacred Church in a religious sense. Witness whereof I hand this document over to him, authenticated by the seal of this Sacred Church."

Not sure why an atheist would want one of these :shock:

Sorry Priscillian but I disagree with your comment on another thread (unless I have mis-read it):-

Re: I'm agnostic, should i be going?
New postby Priscillian on 27 Oct 2012, 00:02

Never thought I would quote it but:
Lovely Gypsy man to Tom (Martin Sheen) in The Way:
"Religion has nothing to do with it"

Funny thing that.....

If it was not for "Religion" there would not be a Camino!

I would still encourage everyone, especially 'agnostics' to walk the Way. Just keep your hearts and minds open - you may be 'surprised by joy'.

Blessings on all 'Peregrinos'
Tio Tel

 

[tyrrek]

Anyone walking the Camino with a scallop shell on their back (literally or metaphorically) and no unkind intentions is a pilgrim in my book. We can argue whether or not some are misguided in their approach. Buen Camino!

 

[Priscillian]

Terry B writes "If it was not for "Religion" there would not be a Camino!"

De acuerdo, Terry; certainly not with a capital C. But it must also be said that the "Way" had existed for hundreds, perhaps thousands of years before the myth of St James was concocted.
(Off topic though so can we please get back to it...)

 

[Tincatinker]

"Jim"' the source OP the posts on this and the other thread, has not posted or responded for a while. Perhaps he is deep in thought.

To respond to Tracey's question, why such ire. Perhaps because to most of us what he is proposing is just wrong; wrong in that it is contrary to normal and socially acceptable behaviour. In any social group, and the Camino is a social group, there are certain practices and behaviours that are accepted and understood by its members and departure from those norms can be sufficiently aberrant to attract expulsive behaviour from the group. In other words "Jim's" behaviour strikes many of us as so removed from the spirit and sense of the the Camino that we seek to repel it (him).

Whether the Camino is a religious, spiritual or cultural journey, or just a well facilitated hike through an enjoyable landscape, will depend on the true heart of the pilgrim (hiker). The Camino as a laboratory for a social science experiment, hmm.

To me Reb has hit a pertinent nail, this is a stunt - not a pilgrimage. Tyrrek suggest that anyone who walks the walk is a pilgrim and I am reminded that a pilgrim is one who undertakes a journey, usually to a destination of religious significance, but always in search of something. "Jim" seems to be in search of a free lunch. Perhaps he will discover the true value of a free lunch.

 

[TerryB]

Hi Tracey,
Maybe I need to explain a little more!
I was in fact thinking of a 'camino' before the 'Camino'. Even if folk of old were journeying to an ancient pagan shrine or in search of Tir-nan-Og out beyond Finis-Terra, they would be Pilgrims on Pilgrimage for religious reasons. One could in fact be thinking of pilgrims to Canterbury and Walsingham here in the U.K. but it would also apply to the 'pilgrims' visiting Stonehenge, Avebury and other religious sites of old. As far as I am aware in my reading, folk in those days were hardly what we would call 'tourists' or even 'long distance hikers'. They were serious about seeking a 'blessing' by visiting a shrine, some of them afraid of purgatory and hell fire! Some perhaps of the 'Old Religion' seeking supernatural powers in order to become dominant in their local society.
The idea of Pilgrimage is an ancient one and may be embedded deep in our subconscious. So when a fairly new member on the Forum comes in with a comment like:-

I have been asked, “You mean you are going to prey on other pilgrims who most likely don’t have a lot of food or money to spare anyway.” The answer is yes! . . . . .

then we react - often in negative ways- because we feel that this is the very antithesis of what a 'pilgrimage' should be.

Does this make sense? Or is it just that I (and others) react negatively to perceived scroungers?

Blessings
Terry

 

[KiwiNomad06]

I think most of us have helped someone along the way who for some reason was short of cash or who needed something else. Some people, like Rebekah, have helped in a major way when someone has suffered unexpected illness or even death of a companion. I think most recognise that some of the younger walkers are doing the Camino on a very tight budget, and have perhaps offered them food etc.

I know there are a few deeply religious people who walk the Camino without money, and who rely on Divine Providence. There might be times when such Providence doesn't present them with a human benefactor, and so they seek outdoor shelter where it presents itself, or go without food for the day, without complaint. As a lapsed Catholic I can understand and respect that some people decide on this kind of pilgrimage experience.

I didn't actually comment on Jim's thread. But I wonder if he might actually 'ruin' his Camino experience with this 'experiment'. Others will probably quickly decide that his need for their help is not 'genuine' and he might end up walking 'alone'.
Margaret


PS I won't answer the "What is a True Pilgrim" part of your question. I think it is a question that is quite separate from discussing Jim's approach- and 'true pilgrim' debates have caused more than enough ill-will on other threads in this forum already.

 

[rickster]

I think this forum would be better served to stick with discussions on packing, transportation, allergies, blister treatment, and ways that can truly transfer opinionated, knowledge and experience
that the recipient can decide to use or not. Just because we successfully made a long walk or several long walks doesn't make us a professional psychologist or someone worthy of defining who a pilgrim truly is or who is morally right or wrong. Frankly, I don't really care whether you call me a true pilgrim even though I've walked from SJPdP to Santiago with a pack on my back and for spiritual reasons. In fact the pilgrims from 500 years ago would probably call everyone on the forum a tourist.
It's the process, the experience, the relationships, the feelings of accomplishments by our own standards, not the definitions or the judgements. That is my humble opinion.

 

[tyrrek]

I think this forum would be better served to stick with discussions on packing, transportation, allergies, blister treatment, and ways that can truly transfer opinionated, knowledge and experience
that the recipient can decide to use or not. Just because we successfully made a long walk or several long walks doesn't make us a professional psychologist or someone worthy of defining who a pilgrim truly is or who is morally right or wrong. Frankly, I don't really care whether you call me a true pilgrim even though I've walked from SJPdP to Santiago with a pack on my back and for spiritual reasons. In fact the pilgrims from 500 years ago would probably call everyone on the forum a tourist.
It's the process, the experience, the relationships, the feelings of accomplishments by our own standards, not the definitions or the judgements. That is my humble opinion.

I can see where you're coming from. I do think we should have space on the forum to go beyond socks and boots etc, though.

If anything these threads show the diversity of opinion that various aspects of the Camino provoke. What's your reaction when you see a busload of walkers (I won't use the term pilgrim or tourist to be neutral) arriving on the route? Is it horror, smugness, welcome...etc?

I can't think of any reason why anyone should be denied equal access to the Camino unless they're engaging in criminal activity, so let's just live with the diversity of opinion and purpose. It's a community like any other and we don't all have to agree all the time.

What does get my goat is all this talk of 'pilgrims 500 years ago would have...'. I bet these people weren't obsessing with 'pilgrims 200 years ago would have...'. They just got themselves to Santiago one way or the other.

Buen Camino!

 

[robertt]

I'd say poverty is for the poor. Exceptions are possible, of course. I walked with a Mexican initiate to a new (bona fide) order of monks whose specialty is non-Thomistic philosophy (or whatever). He was going from Le Puy to Santiago under a vow, without money, had to stay in his cassock except to wash etc. As with a number of intensely religious people I met on the Way, I couldn't say if either the religion or the intensity was helping. It's just how those particular humans were: religious and intense! I'm a little odd myself, but in a different direction.

I still think one quick way to get humble is to work a job in retail where you have to face hundreds of members of the public in a day: a job that puts you on the receiving end, and where the money comes hard. No nobility or exclusivity, just need. Nobody thinks you're special or cares about what you think. You observe the public, and you get to see...yourself!

 

[markss]

I like this all encompassing forum. It is divided into topics such that if one's interests are about factual matters like equipment, logistics, practical advice, etc, these are well represented and catagorized. If that is all a reader cares about that is all the reader needs to follow. What a great source of information!

Likewise there is the opportunity for expressing and reacting to matters of personal opinion. A degree in psychology is not required to form or express an opinion. Reading the views of others, whether we agree with them or not, often helps expand our own capacity for empathy and understanding. It can broaden our own way of thinking and living. What a great service this forum provides in that regard!

Back to the initial "No Money" post: Essentially someone posted on this forum saying, in not this exact phrase "this is my plan, what do you think of it?" The responses were in answer to that invitation for comment.

With this follow up thread, why is the issue being obscured by solicicting comments on what constitutes a "true Pilgrim"? That wasn't the issue. It seems to me that the reactions and logic behind the opinions of people who had their "knickers in a twist" could not have been more clear.

And that's my opinion!

 

[jastrace]

Priscillian,

I think my annoyance levels peaked when I realised I had just spent 20 minutes or so watching some dude splash around in his resort pool in Thailand and tell me all about his path to humility. It was so ridiculous it was both annoying and rolling-on-the-ground hilarious at the same time.

I was grateful for the tips on how to use the cross trainer though.

Cheers mate,

Jason.

 

[Telluridewalker]

I think it generated interest because the essence of the OP's question was, "Do you think it is OK for me to lie if I feel my intentions are good?" It's a classic moral dilemma.

 

[Kitsambler]

Why was there such a vehement response? Let me count the ways.
- Judgementalism
- Self righteousness
- The urge to apply one's own frame of reference to others
- The tendency to perceive a different point of view in the worst possible light
- Low tolerance for ambiguity

These traits of the responders on the original thread are similar to the apparent motivations on the "I'm leaving the Camino tomorrow" thread.

Really, people. Once upon a time, not so very long ago, there was an ethos of hospitality and mutual respect in this forum. If the responses on these two threads are any indication of the spiritual impact of the Camino experience, potential pilgrims would be well advised to steer clear altogether.

Let's try to do a better job of receiving each other as the spiritual brothers and sisters that we in fact are.

 

[grayland]

The replies are getting a bit overheated. A reminder to keep it civil and to refrain from personal attacks.

 

[Freetime]

Re: Re: Why has "No Money" topic pilgrim created such controvers

The replies are getting a bit overheated. A reminder to keep it civil and to refrain from personal attacks

Still... From a soul that has yet to walk this has been a fun read.

I am not discouraged by the read either. I figure everyone has their own reasons for wanting to walk. I'm not to judge their reason but to stay focused on my own.

Tony.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

It´s just another thing that makes ya think.

I believe this particular hoo-haw boils down to an ongoing conflict in western culture: some people see individuals as small parts of greater historical institutions or belief systems. Others see the Individual as paramount, with institutions and belief systems as options and choices, none of them any more legit than another.

Happily, the camino has room for just about all of them, long as their feet hold out.

 

[William Marques]

,if they get out of hand our dear Moderators ( blue meanies) can always step in with their CAPITAL LETTERS :roll:
Ian

Strange you say that as one of my jobs is to edit thread headings which are in capitals. By the way the NO money thread was one which had to be edited.

 

[Priscillian]

Wow. The response to my question has been astonishing. I wonder whether any of these replies will affect Jim´s decision to walk, with or without money???

 

[newfydog]

So, it didn't actually create much controversy. We all think it is a bad idea!

 

[Priscillian]

[PS: The "Twoo Pilgrim" bit was a joke. Read Jack Hitt's Off the Road for more on this...!
And members from last year will remember what I wrote concerning my opinions on "What is this Forum For?" a topic which got so hot it was temporarily closed down!!!
(I DID say I like to stir things up...)b][/b]

 

[dougfitz]

So, it didn't actually create much controversy. We all think it is a bad idea!

I think that in responding to the OP's question, a wide range of views were offered. I think the moderators were very generous in their interpretation of the third Forum Rule, ie

3) Do not criticise the way others make their pilgrimage and do not tell them how to behave or what to do.

On the second point, I wouldn't agree that all the responses were that it was a bad idea. I know I expressed my reservations, but there were many others who supported the OP if not in the detail, but at least in suggesting ways that he might more meaningfully undertake his quest.

He is, of course, perfectly entitled to walk the Camino, with any range of motivations including his self-avowed purpose of having fun, and to seek the support of others in doing this even where that means begging.

And of course we are equally entitled ignore such requests for assistance.

My own view is that the heart of the controversy was identified in the moral dilemma, which someone else has already identified, of whether it is okay to do a bad thing to achieve a good end. In this case, I am not certain that the end is in any way sufficiently 'good' to justify the means.

Regards,

 

[Priscillian]

Having generated more than 5,000 visits in a remarkably short time, Jim´s "no money" post has been temporarily locked for people to "calm down". My only (and last) comment on this is:
Why all the fuss? There are some really negative comments which make me wonder whether we actually DO learn anything on the Camino? Jim may starve, he may give up, he may become disillusioned as to the generosity of others... He certainly will learn whether or not his plan was a good idea or not. I´ve already said it, but giving others the chance to give to you is a gift you give to them. Whether they accept that gift is a matter for them to decide.
Matron Over and Out...

 

[markss]

Why the harsh criticism?

Like so many other people along the Camino I like to believe that I am of generous spirit and willing to help someone in need. While fortunate in life, I am not of unlimited financial means. Accordingly, choices need to be made in my charitable giving. Quite simply, when I give to one cause that means I have less that I am willing or able to give to another.

I take people at their word. If someone asks for assistance it is assumed that it is out of some sort of need. (And not some "pay it forward" business either. Let me decide whether or not I want to participate in that.) From that I determine to whom I can provide and what I can do. I would rather a thief steal money out of my backpack in the middle of the night than someone take advantage of any generosity under false pretenses. Not that I’d be keen on the act by the thief, but I would find some solace in thinking that it stemmed from a desperate need. But being conned out of money or an act of charity under false pretenses? No, not on!

The act of giving itself brings satisfaction. That is elementary in the understanding of human nature. Determining such does not require anyone engaging in any sort of experiment.

This has been described as yet another Camino stunt. Riding a unicycle along the Camino is a stunt. Rollerblading the Camino is a stunt. They don’t involve victims. This “experiment” does. As giver (albeit by proxy) I am victim. That’s the crux of the outrage and criticism.

Then came the back peddling: “I will tell people in advance that I really don’t need the help, I just want to use you as part of some personal experiment” or “like Robin Hood I’ll take from the “haves” (you) and give to the “have nots”(my designated charities). Look at my lifelong history of giving". How noble. So what if it is irrelevant to the Camino and the matter here at hand.

"And by the way, I have recovered from … blah, blah, blah" (not relevant. I think, or at least hope, the judgment here is on the plan, not on the person or his past).

Now we are to believe that there is a logical explanation that would transform opinion. We are just incapable of understanding it if explained to us in advance. Bull crap!

I am trying to keep in the spirit and guidelines of the forum. When someone presents a scheme like this, essentially saying “this is my plan, what do you think?” don’t they invite both any kudos or criticisms of that plan? That begs some kind of judgement. It requires delineation of what we percieve to be right or not right, despite that it may even be contrary to the reaction initially expected by the OP. Perhaps the passion of response is evidence that the whole idea strikes a chord with so many who have been on both the giving and receiving end of much kindness and charity, financial or otherwise, along the Camino.

Whatever Jim’s approach I suspect that many of the thoughts presented here will swirl around his mind as he walks the Camino. Hate the plan but nevertheless wish him all the best! Not with the plan, with the Camino. As harsh and judgmental as it may appear here, when he meets us along the way he is likely to find that we aren’t all that hard. Likewise those who share his company might enjoy many of the great life stories that he has to share!

Buen Camino Jim!

 

[duncan pm]

If I may - it has taught me something, again, about myself - my own exasperation and irritatability and the urgent need to keep my mouth in check. Again, apologies.

 

[William Marques]

Perhaps if anything the affair may have removed the rose tinted spectacles that some members, often those yet to walk, have of the Camino. Too many people get offended if any criticism is expressed but the way has problems, the journey will not be easy, you will encounter both good and bad behaviour.

If this forum was just a happy-clappy place it would be less and some of our more prickly members help us to keep our feet on the ground.

 

[lizlane]

Hey ya'll!! I'm really poor! I live on a $1000.00 a month which is earned through enduring the verbal abuse of adolescent girls who have been sexually and physically abused and otherwise neglected and who are further victimized by the State!!! I gave up television to save money to go, which has resulted in absolutely no progress!!

Picture this as forum topic:

Can anyone please pay for me to make my pilgrimage?? I'm worthy. I promise!

If every forum member donated $4.84 to me, worthy soul, I'm sure I could get there!

I'm just kidding but only about the someone else paying my way (unless someone really did want to pay my way...LOL) The poverty thing is real for me. Some days my daily bread is just that...BREAD! I am not poor by world standards but too much for my liking!!! I personally understand the controversy.

People don't like exploitation. Period. That's why you have never seen me use this forum as a means to beg for the help which I do desperately need. This forum is for people who love the Camino because they've been, want to go, are called to go. It is not a place for us to publicly condone a bad idea! It's a bad idea to go to a foreign country, especially one in crisis and have no money. Common sense dictates that and the forum exists to help people develop it because we all want others to have a good journey and deep down no one wants blood on their hands.

Would I give to someone who said they had a need if I was fortunate enough to be walking the Camino? Absolutely yes, because of my faith. Jesus sent the apostles out with similar instructions for evangelization. "Take no money, no extra cloak." Specific instruction for specific circumstances with a specific end in mind. I think most here have the good sense to realize that we are not apostles and that the road to Santiago is not the path to martydom! Though hopefully, we do enough daily dying to self that we don't waste our time and money missing that this is the real point of any spiritual journey.

As far as "The Way" goes, the gypsy tells Tom to go to Finisterre, not for religion but for closure! Tom, like many people think Santiago and the mass are the destination. Real pilgrims arrive when they realize that the journey doesn't end in a cathedral! That it must continue. Walking to Muxia was symbolic of seeing the journey through to the end. That is why he tells Tom this is not about religion. It's about letting go of the grief and the ashes of what once was. And why the movie shows Tom continuing to travel, no longer doing it for Daniel but seeing the world for himself and continuing the earthly pilgrimage despite our losses. :arrow:

 

[Priscillian]

Quote: "If this forum was just a happy-clappy place it would be less and some of our more prickly members help us to keep our feet on the ground." End Quote

Oh I DO hope that I am one of those....... :wink:

 

[fraluchi]

[...]To me Reb has hit a pertinent nail, this is a stunt - not a pilgrimage.

I fully agree.
As far as the "true pilgrim" question is concerned: how can anyone know how deeply "true" any simple and reserved pilgrim can be? (vs. "supposed" to be)

 

[lynnejohn]

Examine YOUR OWN life.

Examine YOUR OWN path.

Find ways in which you can help others. Make others' lives better.

Improve the world where you live.

lynne

 

[Debinq]

Sure Lynne - that's good advice and a sound principle to base your actions on .... I would add however 'do it quietly' not in a look-at-me-everyone-aren't-I -just bloody-mahvellous manner

happy trails

Peter

 

[ouroboros]

I just finished the Camino and was witness to two types of pilgrim's without money:
the first was a woman who used a con line to elicit pity from other pilgrims, who gave her money,
beer, and cigarettes. She borrowed my lotion in the bathroom, and then left a bit of a mess in the bathroom which I cleaned up. I didn't mind, I just figured she was a bit unconscious about her life. I gave her no money, but did offer when she gave her pitch. I later heard that she had used this pitch on others and they were getting wise. She was from the United States, so I'd ask how she was able to fly to Spain to be a mooch on the Camino? On the other hand, she did some cleaning work in a an albergue in order to be allowed to stay there without payment. But she would not admit that to other pilgrims, perhaps out of embarrassment. I would say this is a hard call: I decided it was her Camino, and it was a totally legitimate way to go, given her particular mind set and circumstances, but I didn't particularly want to become a member of her Camino family, so I did not.
The other was a young man, also an American as far as I could tell, who had no money and who kept to himself, it seemed. He asked for food and offered to work in exchange. Whether he was traveling as a true mendicant, I don't know. Neither was it my business to know. This was his Camino. He was honest and up front about his poverty, and he was responded to accordingly by his hosts.
I also met many well-heeled pilgrims who openly admitted to walking for sport, cultural reasons, or just-to-get-the-damn-Compostela-so-their-devout-grandmother-would-get-off-their-back! Whether or not they are dishonest about pilgrim status is not my concern. I do think the Camino has its way with everyone, not matter what their original motive for taking up this walk. The Camino has a way of working transformation in every pilgrim's life.

 

[jimkaszynski]

From your problem child Jim, this will be my final post until I finish the walk.

Wow, over 7,600 people have read the other thread with more than 130 comments before it was locked (which I agree with him doing.)

I know the purpose of the forum is to help others who are looking for advice on how to make their journey complete regardless of their reason for taking this walk and whether it be spiritual, for exercise, or just for the fun of it.

It seems like everyone who takes the walk for one reason and ends with an unexpected life-changing result. Many of the comments towards me have been highly critical and some downright abusive. However, I didn't respond with any detrimental words toward their statements. I always agree that everyone has the right to say and feel as they wish, even if their sentiments are against my beliefs. With my original story and all the comments, it became very difficult to understand “where I am coming from.” Although I explained everything before, I also became confused. So, I will clarify my position once again.

First, I am not wealthy: I live on $870 a month in a one-room apartment here in Thailand. I have spent the past 50 years doing volunteer work, and I continue to do so today. I have discovered that the reward of helping others far exceeds any paychecks I have ever received.

Why am I doing this walk with “NO MONEY”? I have several reasons to do it without money and just as important are the results to be seen after the walk. I can only discuss the reasons I have now and for the second part, you will have to wait until I complete the walk.

I am a very spiritual person who believes in God; However, I am not religious. I know some people have a problem with that; nevertheless, that is for another story.

Not knowing what the Camino will bring me, I seek more on this journey. I might just have a new spiritual experience. I have already had one before! That's what intrigues me!

I will be camping out during the whole trip, and my only need will be food. I WILL NOT be asking anyone for money. If someone chooses to share some of their food with me, I will accept it.

Some of you may be asking, “Why?” I have an extreme fear of asking anyone who I know, or don’t know, “Will you help me?” I am trying to overcome this problem.

Next, think of all the money that I will not be spending on food, hotels or hostels (I don’t drink so no bar bill would be included either.) I will be donating all my expected spending money to my friend who has started an orphanage in Kenya (which is one of the most difficult countries in the world to take on this challenge.)
In Thailand, it is easy to do the projects like an orphanage because they welcome you with open arms. Kenya is a different story as most everyone says, “I will help you but what’s in it for me?”

I have started another group with people, who have been following me for years, who have agreed to donate an amount of money toward my walk with 100% going to help these beautiful kids who have no chance at life without the help from others. We will feed and house them, buy clothing, plus most importantly make sure they get an education. We only have seven children currently, but my walk just may change one child’s life, which will make it all worthwhile.

So, I hope this clears up several of the “Why?” questions. See you on the other side. Jim

 

[Tia Valeria]

I have held back, but here goes.
1 Strictly speaking Jim is not walking with NO money, but will be taking advantage of other folks' money (which maybe they can ill afford) and generosity.
2 There are other ways of asking for help, different types of help which could be of use to Jim with his own particular needs.
3 Had Jim posted here about his own need to overcome fear of asking for help, and also said he was undertaking the pilgrimage to seek funds for Kenya by sponsorship, he would probably have received more support and no criticism. Others have walked and raised money. He could even have shared that with folk along the Way.
Sadly now I suspect it is to late to change the perceptions folk have of the project but I think that number 1 is the reason it has sparked so much controversy, and any good generated has been lost in the furor.
Go well Jim and in peace

 

[CaminoJohn]

I don't know where all this "free" camping Jim keeps talking about is on the camino. Spain is not a third world country with people setting up tents wherever they feel like. I have walked the camino twice with a tent and camped along the way. Alburgues charge you to camp on their lawns i(f they allow you to do so at all) Camping at churches are discouraged as there is almost always a pay campground near by and/or they expect a donativo. Farmers don't want pilgrims shitting up their fields and vineyards...So where is this "free" camping? Seems like Jim will be taking advantage of many more people than he thinks. Also, he has never addressed a point raised in earlier posts on this thread or the other about the problem of walking the camino and encountering, and presumably begging from, the same pilgrims day after day. Everyone, both forward and back on the trail will be on to him and will , with all probability, shun him. His seems oblivious to all these issues.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Why was there such a vehement response? Let me count the ways.
- Judgementalism
- Self righteousness
- The urge to apply one's own frame of reference to others
- The tendency to perceive a different point of view in the worst possible light
- Low tolerance for ambiguity

Kitsambler, you hit the nail RIGHT on the head, in my book.

I mean, really... who CARES if the guy walks without money!
He'll either make it or he won't.
It's called Natural Selection and Free Will.

He asked for opinions.
He certainly got them!
But it didn't need to degenerate into name-calling.

People need to pay more attention to their OWN broken selves, imo.
I think someone once said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone?"

 

[renegadepilgrim]

First, I am not wealthy: I live on $870 a month in a one-room apartment here in Thailand. I have spent the past 50 years doing volunteer work, and I continue to do so today. I have discovered that the reward of helping others far exceeds any paychecks I have ever received.

I will be camping out during the whole trip, and my only need will be food. I WILL NOT be asking anyone for money. If someone chooses to share some of their food with me, I will accept it.

First off, I have spent time in Thailand. You can live like a KING on $870/month. Especially in Chiang Rai. Sorry, the poverty thing isn't going to fly with me...

And to reiterate what everyone else has said, you can't really "camp" on the Camino...

That being said, to respond to Tracy's original question: There is no such thing as a true pilgrim because no one can truly know another persons motivations and who knows why everyone got their knickers in a twist...probably the same reason everyone on Couchsurfing did when a guy said he was doing the Camino on a Segway... (which BTW, I met the fellow in Santiago in October and he was a delight! Segway and all! )

 

[dougfitz]

That being said, to respond to Tracy's original question: There is no such thing as a true pilgrim because no one can truly know another persons motivations

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean here. I take the view that it is impossible to tell what motivates people directly, but that conversations and observed behaviours give a good, but not necessarily complete, indication to these things.

In that sense, I think people do make judgements on whether or not someone is a 'true pilgrim', but risk being wrong.

Semantically, just having left home is enough to qualify as a pilgrim in the word's original meaning. Today, and particularly in this forum, there is an expectation that the 'true pilgrim' walks with at least a spiritual, if not a religious purpose. That cannot be tested directly by anyone else, just the person walking.

What we do know is that Jim has declared his purpose, to walk as a mendicant pilgrim. But he is not doing so for religious purposes (he claims not to be religious). Other than 'having fun' which he claims in one of his many websites to be his goal, we are left with his self-improvement program. I have already expressed an opinion on that, and the moral dilemma that it creates.

What is emerging for me is not what Jim plans to do, ie undertake a pilgrimage to SDC, but how he plans to do it. I have no difficulty supporting the what, but to me the how is unconvincing.

That doesn't mean the general approach that he takes isn't annoying to me. It is, and his latest effort on this thread reinforces that. But I must admit to being almost eager to see what he has to say next. He is like one those annoying shock-jocks. One listens to them not because one might be even remotely interested in agreeing with them, but to see what amazingly outrageous thing they will say next.

Regards,

 

[AJ]

He is like one those annoying shock-jocks. One listens to them not because one might be even remotely interested in agreeing with them, but to see what amazingly outrageous thing they will say next.

It all boils down to attention: giving, receiving or exchanging. Jim knows how to satisfy his attention needs.

 

[jastrace]

One listens to them not because one might be even remotely interested in agreeing with them, but to see what amazingly outrageous thing they will say next.

I admit to having often felt the same way.

As I write I find it difficult to find the precise words I am looking for, but here goes: I sincerely hope this is a matter of just a series of poorly expressed explanation (after explanation) from Jim to an audience with an active 'BS' radar and excellent attention to detail. I hope that what has been taken literally by many members of the forum is not what he has intended. I am also happy to accept the naivety of this statement.

I hope for Jim that there is a currently misunderstood and wonderful reason that has escaped explanation and that he and the people he meets genuinely and positively benefit from from Jim's adventure.

Jim, you have both annoyed me and challenged my thinking. Thanks. Everyone else: I appreciate the different views and opinions everyone has put forward. This has been very interesting. Thanks to you all.

Life would be easier but boring if everyone thought like me!

Cheers,

Jason.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Doughfitz wrote: "What is emerging for me is not what Jim plans to do, ie undertake a pilgrimage to SDC, but how he plans to do it. I have no difficulty supporting the what, but to me the how is unconvincing."


I'm not sure qualifications for pilgrimage include the agreement, support, or permission from anyone else, on where you're going or what you're doing, or how you're doing it? To my knowledge there is no set of guidelines or permission slips an adult must sign first?

With all of us "experts" on pilgrimage, and such a range of views of what is and is not proper, it's amazing anyone attempts pilgrimage at all, huh?

Personally, I think there's room in this world for everyone to get what they want, including Jim!

I say, Buen Camino, Jim!
Best of luck to you.
I hope your pilgrimage offers the opportunity for many others to show kindness.
We are all so rich to be able to afford to go at all!
It's good when we can share - makes the heart feel full.

I'll be interested to hear how you did.
I'm sure you will have some stories to tell.
I suspect you'll have a great time.

 

[Grease]

Being what I would personally refer to as an “outsider”, having not done the “Camino” …Yet!
I hopefully won’t be banned for stirring the religious soup here by bring a little Buddhism to the party in referencing the original post that has garnered so much discussion…

One word, Karma!

Like so many whose posts I have read, I had not been aware of the Camino prior to seeing “the Way”. It is rare that I see something on a screen that moves me to say, “Oh Man, that is going on the bucket list!”. Does the fact that I’m even referring to doing the Camino as a “Bucket list” item make me any less of a pilgrim? Does the fact that I am not a very religious person make me any less of a pilgrim? Truth be told, I thought it would be a great personal experience being able to hike that kind of distance and not have to drag a kitchen and tent along. I’m also not beyond going, ”Hey you know what, tonight a hotel would be pretty nice”, and I’m personally attracted to the somewhat structured path of the Camino.

Still, a major part of me wants to do this for the purpose of hopefully some self discovery, spiritual, mind and body. I like to think that I live by, “If I can help, offer”, “If I need help, accept” so I don’t know myself… Pilgrim/Tourist? Tourist/Pilgrim? From what I can gather there is in fact a rather large difference between a truly “Pure Pilgrimage” and what I am reading to be stated as “pilgrims” in referring to the Camino, to which (and JMHO), would make a pure pilgrimage as one of strictly religious inspiration/act of devotion. I understand that folks will do the Camino the “spiritualism” aspect without drawing any particular religious aspect, maybe some inner discovery, the whole “Zen” thing, or maybe just a “feel good” experience. So it seems to me that pretty much as long as you are a good person you could qualify as a pilgrim in reference to the Camino… Just not a “pure” pilgrim in the religious context of the word… I dunno, JMHO and hope I’m not out of line on this?

Oh I can’t wait!!! I just hope I don’t burn out on my personal sound track between now and September…
George Harrison’s, “If you don’t know where you’re going, any road can take you here…”

Regards,
Mike G

 

[markss]

Being what I would personally refer to as an “outsider”, having not done the “Camino” …Yet!

Grease,

Sounds like your Camino has already begun. You are an outsider no more! Bet you will love it, but a word of caution: It can become both an addiction and an obsession.

Buen Camino!

 

[dougfitz]

I'm not sure qualifications for pilgrimage include the agreement, support, or permission from anyone else, on where you're going or what you're doing, or how you're doing it? To my knowledge there is no set of guidelines or permission slips an adult must sign first?

Annie,
when I first read your response, I was inclined to agree that there are no 'permission slips', and that wasn't really my point anyhow. Rather I was addressing how one might disagree with how Jim plans to conduct himself while still supporting what he is doing. Perhaps this is too fine a point, but it is similar to the defence of free speech. We can defend someone's right to free speech without having to agree with the arguments the individual might make using that freedom.

Then I reflected on all the 'permission slips' that one does in fact travel with. Many are provided almost automatically, but that still doesn't alter the fact that they are by their nature a permit that I have to obtain from someone in a position of authority to even start, or which will make my journey easier. My list might vary slightly from others, but in no particular order, some of mine are:

• passport - permission from my government to travel outside Australia
• visa - permission from another government to stay in their country
• family approval - the cost of travelling to Europe is a major impost on the family finances, and I would not consider doing this if my spouse didn't agree
• leave approval - my employer has to agree to give me a longer period of leave than is otherwise usual to undertake a major pilgrimage
• one's pilgrim passport/credencial - a document that permits me to use albergues

So while I agree with you that a pilgrimage may not of itself require any agreement, I think we plan and undertake our pilgrimages within a broader framework of approvals and permissions that qualify us for this undertaking.

 

[William Marques]

One thing I would think anyone who has seen "The Way" realises is that everyone has their own reasons for walking or cycling the Camino. The film deals with a set of people with completely different characters and motivations sometime they get along sometimes they do not.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Hi Doug,

Frankly, your examples made no contextual sense to me and really had nothing to do with my comment about not requiring anyone's permission to walk as a person chooses. :roll:

Here are my thoughts:

[*]visa - permission from another government to stay in their country. It is a LEGAL requirement to have a visa in order to get into the country. To not have a visa would make his trip IMPOSSIBLE, so he MUST listen.

[*]family approval - A person may be deeply invested in their immediate family (spouse) and so have a lot to lose if the spouse disagrees. On the other hand, people in my family told me I was crazy to go to Spain alone and I went anyway. I could have happily lived without their opinions and survived quite nicely without their approval. This is in the "free choice" column where each person must decide for themselves what is to be gained (freedom, adventure, finding oneself) and what is to be lost (a spouse.)

[*]leave approval - my employer has to agree to give me a longer period of leave than is otherwise usual to undertake a major pilgrimage - Again, a person is deeply invested in their job and income. Leaving the job might cause undue stress and financial disaster... or it might not. What is to be gained? (freedom, adventure, finding oneself) and What is to be lost (perhaps a crappy job?). If you love your job, PERMISSION to leave, such as in vacation time, is one thing. However, whether or not the boss and my co-workers agree with my decision to walk or reasons for walking makes no difference to me whatsoever.

[*]one's pilgrim passport/credencial - a document that permits me to use albergues[/list] The albergues require me to carry this in order to sleep in their beds. Again, this is a REQUIREMENT. Whether or not they like me or agree with where and how I walk makes no difference.

People who like to be in control of OTHER people's lives often have strong opinions about what other people "should" or "should not" do. People who ask for opinions get them, often not the ones they were looking for. The receivers of advice have free agency to listen... or not.

I find myself having to let go of that often when it comes to the boot/shoe issue -
At some point I have to just say, "You know what? Let them wear boots and learn. It is, after all, THEIR Camino!" Then my inner self-righteous monologue is saying, "When their feet blister up and they can't walk another step, when their cold, wet boots hurt their feet, they'll wish they'd worn trail shoes or walkers! Humphf!"

Walking from Lourdes this year, I actually had a change of heart - there are places on the Aragones where boots might not be a bad idea!

Then, there's the part about learning something.
Some kids listen when you tell them the stove is hot - those are the followers.
Some kids have to touch the stove to prove it to themselves - those are the leaders.
I prefer to be a leader, personally.

When I was 17, I ran away from home to the US Virgin Islands.
People said I was crazy to go there.
People said I'd be raped, pillaged, murdered, drowned, drugged, (fill in the blank).
People said I was too young and naive.
People were WRONG!

I was young, but immortal.
I had very little cash.
I ended up working as a go-go dancer in a bar in Old San Juan at night and selling conch shells to the tourists by day.
I did fine.
I met and married my children's father there and had a great time!
I still have many friends and contacts in the islands.

Same here. It's HIS Camino.
If he walks without money, it won't affect my world one iota.
And he'll probably have a great time!
So why be so invested in his decision?
My goodness, life is so short, why not keep your OWN ducks in a line?
That's what I'm working on more and more these days.

 

[CaminoJohn]

This morning, on an American radio news program, I heard a story which seems to explain why most of us on this thread and the other, feel offended/confused/annoyed by Jim's planned "experiment".

From the story: "We are obligated to give back to others, the form of behavior that they have first given to us," he says. "Essentially thou shall not take without giving in return."

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2012/11 ... n-binds-us


I think that all of us who were offended/confused/annoyed, have been saying what this article states, but it is nice to see some academia to back it up!

 

[Anniesantiago]

I seem to recall the following from my Sunday School Lessons:

Mat 5:30
Give to the one who asks of you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Luke 6:30
Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours, do not demand it back

Look, I don't want to get into argument with anyone.
Everyone must choose for themselves how to deal out charity.

Do as you will.
As for me, if someone asks for food, I'll feed them.
If I feel they're taking advantage of me, I'll deal with it.

I've had a Camino Miracle that perhaps changed my paradigm...
I was healed by a hungry, homeless man who I shared my food with.
It was a sweet experience.

I also have had a beloved cousin die on the streets, hungry and dirty.
He was mentally ill.
So.. I have no problem sharing my food with someone who is hungry when I have so much.

I do not give money to everyone who asks.
But if I met this guy on the Camino, I'd probably share a meal.
And I don't think anyone has the RIGHT to tell him how to walk his danged Camino!

This forum is beginning to feel way off base to me.
The kind words, the charity, the love, the support ... is all dissipating.
Maybe Christmas is bringing out the Grinch in folks. lol

I've said what I have to say on this thread.
I think it's time for me to let it alone.
Could we please just get on with answering people's questions about walking the Camino?

 

[Deleted member 3000]

This forum is beginning to feel way off base to me.
The kind words, the charity, the love, the support ... is all dissipating.

Because we disagree with you on this person's motives we lack charity, love, and support? Somehow that seems harsh to me.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Well, sorry you feel that way.

I'm going back to my studio to make Nativity Sets and plan my next Camino.
Merry Christmas, Falcon.

 

[lizlane]

:shock:

Umm, Jim can you let us know exactly when you plan to go on your "no money" camino, so the rest of us can plan ours around yours? I'm just kidding!

I would be so happy to meet you along the way begging because it would mean I would be there too! However, you may want to consider saving some money to fall back on because you don't want to start this noble venture to fail as a coward when you are hungry and cold. If God is calling you to this, you don't need our blessing! Nor will He let you fail.

With that said, PRIDE DOES GO BEFORE A FALL. If this is your doing versus His, be sensible and have a plan B! Lest you learn humility the hard way...I'm just saying...Because as one friend of Bill W.'s to another, I think your setting yourself up for the drunk to end all drunks!

You can deny it. You can say no, never, not me, i've checked my motives and their spiritually sounds but the reality is when you're cold and hungry and the taverns are full and inviting, you will venture in to see if some generous sott will buy you a meal or share some food. And they likely will under the condition you join them for a drink...

But for the Grace of God, there go I...But then again, I'm making the choice to pray and fast now...I just have one more thing to say as a professional substance abuse counselor, my professional opinion:
Hungry
Angry
Lonely
Tired

 

[lizlane]

Okay, I lied. I have this more to say.

We are not punished FOR our sins but BY our sins. And if "SIN" is too controversial, substitute "CHOICE" This is the price of free will!

 

[ffp13]

Why has "No Money" topic pilgrim created such controversy?

Spain is experiencing record unemployment levels , 1 in 4 workers are unemployed.

It is in my opinion insensitive to travel to spain and then expect expect to be sustained by the charity of others, especially when many genuine cases need exist in communities along the Camino.

Spain needs cashed up pilgrims not leaches.

 

[daesdaemar]

IMHO it's very simple. Charity should go to the ones in need. It should not go to someone pretending to be in need. Every bit of food or money that goes to him, should have gone to someone who really needs it. He is, in effect, stealing that charity.

 

[CaminoGen]

Re: Re: Why has "No Money" topic pilgrim created such controvers

IMHO it's very simple. Charity should go to the ones in need. It should not go to someone pretending to be in need. Every bit of food or money that goes to him, should have gone to someone who really needs it. He is, in effect, stealing that charity.

Exactly

 

[koby]

i haven't followed this subject recently but felt from the beginning this "No Money" travel is the basis for a book, magazine articles, interviews on the subject of the generosity or lack of it on the Camino or elsewhere. What is the ulterior motive? I don't know but I'm sure "No Money" will refute this assumption.

I agree at this time of need in Spain it is not an honourable thing to do; go somewhere else -- somewhere where they are a lot of well off people -- people with less often give more. don't do it.

 

[thomryng]

IMHO it's very simple. Charity should go to the ones in need. It should not go to someone pretending to be in need. Every bit of food or money that goes to him, should have gone to someone who really needs it. He is, in effect, stealing that charity.

I suspect that this is the primary reason why so many folks were reflexively angry/annoyed by Jim's post.

Certainly that was my reaction, and I've not yet begun my Camino. I was struggling to put it into words and eventually gave up. You put it very succinctly.

 

[fortview]

Certainly that was my reaction, and I've not yet begun my Camino. I was struggling to put it into words and eventually gave up. You put it very succinctly.[/quote]

You are posting on this forum, I'd say your Camino has indeed begun :lol:
Buen camino !!

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Inspiration for seeing if other people will let you down?

A man's quest to overcome his fear of rejection by making at least one crazy request a day for 100 days was throttled last week when a Krispy Kreme employee accepted his order for five doughnuts linked together in the colors and shape of the Olympic symbol.

"It's only my third day and I have already failed," Jia Jiang wrote on his 100 Days of Rejection Therapy blog. "But I did so with such amazement and happiness."

When the 31-year-old approached the register to make his "specialized" doughnut order, Jackie Braun, a shift leader at an Austin, Texas, Krispy Kreme, asked him when he would need it.

"In the next 15 minutes," Jiang replied.

"I was honestly just hoping for a 'no' and to go home," Jiang told Yahoo News in an interview on Monday.

Instead, Braun spent several minutes using the back of some receipt paper to diagram the unusual order.

"Let me see what I can do," she said.

Fifteen minutes later, she emerged with a Krispy Kreme box with the glazed Olympic ring arrangement inside—and, astonishingly, did not charge Jiang for it.

"It wasn't exactly what he wanted," Braun told Yahoo News. "To my eyes, it wasn't perfect, so I didn't think I should charge him for it. It was the best I could do in the time allotted."

"Wow, Jackie, I'm a fan," Jiang told her, on behalf of everyone in America.

Braun, though, said she didn't do anything out of the ordinary.

"It was a simple thing," Braun, who's been with Krispy Kreme for five years, said. "The Olympic symbol was the only unusual part, because they're not on TV right now. But we do orders like that every day. We're here to make people happy."

It is stunning the aggravation by some to get attention, rejection at that!!!

 

[Anniesantiago]

Wow!
This made me smile!
What a wonderful tribute to human kindness, sense of humor, and spirit!

 

[Ptrskier]

It amazes me that people get so upset with Jim's idea. Most who criticize think they own the road of the camino . It's for everybody so lighten up !! Jim does not need your negative advice find something else to complain about ! You are all so negative !

 

[ffp13]

Why has "No Money" topic pilgrim created such controversy?

It amazes me that people get so upset with Jim's idea. Most who criticize think they own the road of the camino . It's for everybody so lighten up !! Jim does not need your negative advice find something else to complain about ! You are all so negative !

Thanks, I have found something else to complain about.

A "Forum" is somewhere where opposing views can be raised! and discussed

Why are you so negative about others having opposing views?

I am sure the moderators would intervene should an opposing view become a personal attack or offensive.

I will agree with you on one point, there are many on this forum that are quick to challenge anyone whose Camino does not conform to their own views.

This forum is not just a travel forum, where most members don't care too much about different opinions, the Camino for many is a passion even an obsession.

 

[JohnnieWalker]

Re: Why has

I will agree with you on one point, there are many on this forum that are quick to challenge anyone whose Camino does not conform to their own views.

That's why the forum has rules...it might be good to remind ourselves of Rule Number 3:

3) Do not criticise the way others make their pilgrimage and do not tell them how to behave or what to do.

Amen

 

[Jubilado]

I was hospitalero and a walker arrived and said 'I am a pilgrim and I have no money'. I said "welcome". His story emerged, that he had been aircrew with a certain airline and he saw in Africa the intense poverty and realised that he had to act personally, and decided to withdraw from consumerism and pointless living. He felt he could no longer take part in a rotten system which produced those results. He sold all he had, gave much of it away and spent 6months of the year working for food and a roof in a EU homeless shelter. And then he walked. He asked at doors for food. I asked if this was easy to do and he said at first it was terrible, but after much pain, he passed through that and now took a rejection with the same love as an offer. I believed him and I am one who can be a cynic, often.

I realised we could speak frankly and said directly "So you expect others to pay the costs of your pilgrimage?". His clear answer took me aback. "Yes" he said.

He gave so much that he felt that some food was not too much to ask for. He also told me that in his homeless hostel he put difficult questions to his catholic colleagues about living in a rotten system. He made them uneasy. He said he was tolerated because he was very good at his work. More than once he was told by his bishop not to worry about all these questions of 'right living' and to forget these matters.

A young German arrived and we had a feast and talk talk talk. It was wonderful. As he left next day I asked for an email address, as he impressed me deeply. He had no address, no email, no phone. This description of an evening doesnt say more than a few things - it was the man who impressed.

The person here who has money and chooses to beg on the way is making unnecessary difficulties for himself. I want to be objective and NOT be critical when I say that playing at poverty is not wise for all concerned. If the person want to give poverty a real try without a safety net than I'd say give it a go. He could begin by giving away his total weekly income during his walk, and have nothing in reserve, just to remove that knowledge that he'll be OK. Poverty is a very cruel, or worse, indifferent situation. He could arrange to finally arrive in SDC and have no access to his money for a couple of months and take his chances as the destitute do every day.Its fine to be on a camino with a refugio each night, among a community of pilgrims. But to give poverty a real try, he needs to be like the huge majority of the poor, for whom it is not a social experiment.

These above are two contradictory views of walking without money. Which suggests to me that nothing is fixed, and certainly not why people walk. I hope this person does his walk as he wishes.

This person here has taken a lot of stick but as he publicised his walk without money, I think that's OK. It IS a forum where ideas are publicly discussed. I neednt agree with the criticism, but he invited comment and it was offered by various conributors. If anyone told him how he should do a pilgrimage, of course he will ignore that advice and do as he pleases, as I would and you too, I hope. People should be free to walk as they wish, and if they invite comment in a forum thats fine too.

Isn't it?

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Keeping the controversy alive!

http://newstrib.com/main.asp?SectionID= ... leID=25374

 

[CaminoJohn]

Keeping the controversy alive!

http://newstrib.com/main.asp?SectionID= ... leID=25374

LMAO! Thanks Falcon! This is soo incredibly silly! Rebekah Scott totally got this right when she referred to this as a "stunt" camino! Ha, Ha!

 

[Deleted member 3000]

According to his Facebook post, Jim's debit card has come out...

Not for food, though.?!

 

[Deleted member 3000]

They are calling Jim the Mayor of the Camino, according to his post.

Since Mayor is not an hereditary title like King or Prince, anything is possible...

Has anyone in the Forum on the Camino met him -- He was in Burgos on about June 22.

 

[CaminoGen]

Re: Why has "No Money" topic pilgrim created such controversy?

So glad I'm not on the Camino at the moment...

 

[Daxzentzu]

Why has "No Money" topic pilgrim created such controversy?

No money, no problem.

It's not for me to preach about anybody's camino. If a person chooses to take an ascetic path then go for it.

Dax

 

[Kanga]

Why has "No Money" topic pilgrim created such controversy?

No money, no problem.

It's not for me to preach about anybody's camino. If a person chooses to take an ascetic path then go for it.

Dax

But that's the point, he does have money. He is not giving it away, nor is he taking the "ascetic" path. He was planning to ask other people to provide for him while he keeps his own money safely at home.

 

[Daxzentzu]

Why has "No Money" topic pilgrim created such controversy?

Exactly, he is choosing his own way.

 

[Priscillian]

I see this is back up. Does anyone know whether NMP ever carried through? Whether or not, it certainly has given us something to talk about. So many visits!!!

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Prissy: read the above. According to his Facebook post, he has been out almost a month, attended an AA meeting,'gave up on his tent, broke out the debit card, and has been named Mayor of the Camino!!

I am ahead of him and have asked dozens of English-speaking pilgrims who should have passed him, if they have met him. None has, so I am hoping a Forum member may have!

It would be interesting to have something besides self-reporting, which has a tendency to be self-serving.

 

[tony1951]

So a man who has resources has decided to voluntarily beg his way along the path.

That's a petty low thing to do. I wonder if he is aware of how hard the people of Spain have been hit by the awful financial state the country is in. Does he know that 25% of the population are out of work and pretty desperate? Does he know that close to 50% of the young are out of work?

I think that a man who can afford to support himself voluntarily making himself a beggar there is one of the very worst things I have ever heard of.

 

[Deleted member 22638]

Why has "No Money" topic pilgrim created such controversy?

Who knows what he does with his money?

 

[Kanga]

Why has "No Money" topic pilgrim created such controversy?

I don't know what he does with his money but if ever there was a time to spend up big while in Spain, this is it. So c'mon all you pilgrims who can afford it, leave the albergue beds for those who need them, buy extra socks, use the local restaurants; girls get your hair styled and your nails painted along the way. And feel righteous about using baggage carriers!
Today's news reported 52% unemployed youth and 27% unemployment overall. Unimaginably bad.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

According to his sister-in-law, the owner of Ferrementeiro in Portomarin makes nearly 100,000€ a year net profit for staying open less than six months. At least one part of the economy is thriving!

 

[SabsP]

...

 

[Deleted member 3000]

He posted yesterday, July 1, on his group page, asserting that all his food has come from others. ??? Third party verification? If the debit card is out for albergues, the spare change is not far away when he gets hungry, which he says he does.

 

[SabsP]

...

 

[Priscillian]

I have a true gentleman staying here at (the place which must not be named) today; a pilgrim in the truest spirit. His name is Jim Zaszynski.
If I am still member of this Forum by the end of the day, I will tell you a little about him.
Off now to change beds, clean, cook and then work in the Pilgrim Garden (with Jim).
TS

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Think you can separate the wheat from the chaff? His Facebook posts were pretty unbelievable; I could not tell if it was simple exaggeration or actual prevarication. I look forward to your interview report!

 

[Priscillian]

No "interview", Falc. I don´t invade another's privacy. I am speaking, however, as a professional therapist and all-time pilgrim collector.
Jim´s a good guy. A bit näive perhaps, but a good man with a good heart who did what he set out to do and changed a lot of people's negative thinking in the process. Some things he was unable to do. Most, he did.
Maybe that's all I really have to say.
Maybe it's time we all got back to minding our own business.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I've been hesitating about whether to contribute to this thread or not, but if I'm to be howsoever politely honest, I'm /fill-in-the-blank/ by some of the comments that I've seen here.

1) HIS Camino, HIS Way --- NOT yours nor anyone else's

2) I've personally ended up more than once walking with zero cash for multiple varying reasons, and it's horrid, but you don't stop being a pilgrim simply because your pocket is empty -- you carry on, one step, then the next, then the next, all the way to the end --- and YES the Camino provides

3) He's not begging for money -- THIS is ultra important, and deserving of nothing but respect ; the ONE difference between someone respectful without money and a tramp or beggar is that begging for cash is OUT of the question

4) Frankly, jealousy. Why should *he* get to do this Camino for free, but I've paid through the nose for it ?

5) Fear. People are projecting their own fear of destitution onto this pilgrim. It's quite silly, and likely most don't even realise what they're doing.

6) Spirituality. Whilst I certainly agree that in general a pilgrim should take whatever money he or she has, and stay in Paradors if affordable, go for it, because one of the goals of the Camino is to be with yourself as you are, rather than with someone else entirely with some entirely different finances --- I still know from experience that there is a peculiar spirituality of utter destitution on the Camino, whereby its physical needs can be transcended and transformed into joy. -- We all of us have experienced this to some degree in the physical pain of the Camino, that we don't actively seek, though it comes anyway ; and financial destitution is no more than another source of pain from the Camino, when you are subjected to it -- poverty is like the blazing sun on the Meseta, the drudgery of the hike through the concrete suburbs into Burgos, like a never-ending blister, the constant ache of the body from the walking, and the sweat dripping into your eye. It is just another form of direct suffering, and no different in nature to any of them --- but do any of you blame another pilgrim for his blister, blame another pilgrim for her sweat-drenched face, blame another pilgrim for tiring in the sun, blame another pilgrim for making a grunt of pain ?

7) Sus Eia ; e Ultreia.

 

[Tincatinker]

Hmm, the trouble with irritating ticks is unless you treat them with a really large pinch of salt they'll keep on sucking. I really hope Jim enjoyed his trip.

 

[ffp13]

Why has "No Money" topic pilgrim created such controversy?

If I am still member of this Forum by the end of the day, I will tell you a little about him.
TS

It appears that No Money Pilgrim is staying at the Little Fox House, for no money, but he is working for his keep ( just as many volunteer hospitalro do) I have in previous posts been critical of the no money concept, but I concede that working for your keep is not taking charity,

Tracy ( Priscillian ) has been removed from the forum before she could post this pic of Jim working his butt off in the Little Fox House (donativo post Camino retreat) church garden.

Tracy says Goodbye!




Aussie Frank

 

[KinkyOne]

Maybe that's off topic, but what was the reason Tracy was removed from the forum?
Thanks!

 

[mikevasey]

She kept posting about her end of camino donativo retreat AND asking for help from forum members to be unpaid hospitelaros when she couldnt be there.

No doubt someone will post there was a lot more to it, but if you look at each post on its individual merit then it was a request for help that bought it about.

 

[ffp13]

Why has "No Money" topic pilgrim created such controversy?

Almost all volunteer hospitalro are 'unpaid' ( monetarily)

back on topic jim chose to work for his keep at Tracy's keeping true to his wish to complete his Camino without money.

I assume that many hospitalaros are also doing their own Camino without any money?

I think it is a shame if the forum is discouraging genuine requests for volunteer hospitalro , I don't believe this is their intent. Because I have seen call for un paid volunteers either as hospitalaros or in other capacities eg pilgrims office on this forum.

Personally I would like to see a special section where Alburgue be it private or institutional can post requests / vacancies for volunteers, after 5 caminos I'm looking for a new Camino experience but I have found it difficult to find the contact and or future Unfilled positions.

Frank

 

[Deleted member 3000]

keeping true to his wish to complete his Camino without money.

But he did not!! Read his Facebook posts.

 

[JabbaPapa]

But he did not!!

What on EARTH has this man done, that you seem to be taking this so personally ?

 

[SabsP]

Re: Why has "No Money" topic pilgrim created such controversy?

I for one am the first to admit I got carried away with my set idea about Jim. Was too quick in my negativity.
Good luck with everyone involved in the little fox house!!!!!!!! Mucha suerte
Sent from my GT-I8160 using Camino de Santiago Forum mobile app

 

[dougfitz]

What on EARTH has this man done, that you seem to be taking this so personally ?

If you haven't read http://www.caminodesantiago.me/board/el-camino-frances/topic15607.html and the comments on his original foray into this forum, it might be difficult to understand how controversial the proposal he was making became. Given that he has misrepresented the comments made in that thread on other web-sites, I won't be saying any more than I already have on this man.

Regards,

 

[jimkaszynski]

I did make it with almost no money! My original plan was to camp out. That did not work; I was not even close to being able to carry all the extra supply’s I needed to continue. In the end that was a gift because I would have missed all the Pilgrims that I meet, which were more than, 1,000 from 27 different countries. I did have to dip into my debit card and use it to pay for the alberges which left me almost nothing for food. I did not have to beg for food.

Now it's time to give back and that I will. I will share my experience, strength and hope with anyone who may be considering this journey. I recorded everyday everything I went through and other Pilgrims experiences. I will be posting stories and making a video about everything I saw and did.

MY CAMINO EXPEARENCE!


WOW… what an extraordinary experience in my life! The Camino de Santiago is known to produce miracles in your life, and that it did. So much to tell you!

After 56 days of walking and putting on over 500 miles on my shoes, I took my final step in Santiago, Spain. I did walk every inch of the way, carrying my overweight back pack every step.

I set out with several goals, to save a child’s life in Kenya and to prove that even today, people have the compassion to help another in need just as the pilgrims did thousands of years ago. I was right, although I walked with almost no money for food; the pilgrim’s and the people of Spain were more than generous to feed me, not even knowing what my mission was. Yes, there were many nights, I went to bed hungry, but I did not starve.


I meet over a thousand people from 27 countries all which had their own Camino experience. No one can do this wrong! You do not have to walk the whole Camino to get enlightened about new options that are available in life.

I took over 4,000 photos and video plus recorded every day what I and others were going through, all coming in the next year.


WHAT WAS MY LESSON?


OHH… so many, here are a few. One day as I was walking on an alternate route, I was sure I was on the wrong road, no people, cars or anything beautiful to look at. I ran out of water, and my shoulders were killing me because of my overweight backpack.

Suddenly, I was surrounded by butterflies; it forced me to; not only look at the butterflies but to see the beauty in the artistic design on their wings. It made me think; all this did not just happen; everything has its purpose. So I asked myself “WHY AM I HERE?” I got my answer!

Our creator put us all here to enjoy life and be happy, if I am not, I am doing something wrong! This does not mean that I will not experience pain; I had many days of that, but, what it does mean, I can be at peace through the good and bad. Having pain is not always my choice but being at peace is! By helping another in need, if only sharing my own life, does give me the peace I have been seeking.

So I have learned the difference between pleasure and joy. Pleasure is external, joy comes from within. Pain, whether psychical or mental is not bad, it can tell me something is right or wrong. However, suffering is always my choice, just as being at peace is. This journey has taught me this difference and most important, for me to know if my thoughts are coming from my head or my heart.

My lesson in a sentence is I am “WE”; which includes YOU and our God whoever it may be. When I changed the word, from “I” to “WE” it deflated my ego and then realized that there is nothing we cannot do, but so much I can’t.

During my walk, there were many times when I could not make it one more step, but when I started to use the “WE” word my backpack got lighter, and a new energy came over me. That brought me to the moment, and I chose (it was always my choice) to be at total peace. You were with me every step of the way. Although there were times, I had to look for you, but you were always there!

In the coming weeks I will be sharing some of the many stories that happened to me and others on the Camino. This was “NOT” a walk in the park! This by far has been the most difficult challenge I have had in my life; however, it has brought me rewards I never dreamt possible!

Today I am adjusting back to the real world (or did I just leave it?) at The Little Fox House near Muxia with a gifted Pilgrim who offers her home and knowledge for this adjustment. Tracy Saunders, the founder of The Little Fox House has helped me complete this circle to a "NEW" life.

Love Jim ....More coming soon.