Why are people and some pilgrims so rude in the cathedral?

[caminowilts]

On the Camino everyone takes care of everyone. Yet every time I have been to the cathedral (3 Caminos), people are so rude. The savings of seats by pilgrims for others is one very clear example. I see pilgrims hobbling into the catherdral and yet for some pilgrims all acts of generosity disappear - instead personal entitlement seems to kick in. Am I being harsh?

 

[naplesdon]

It is cringe worthy and a complete embarrassment to me. What I have come to hate the worse is the last second rush to fill the center of the side aisle as if that is a place to sit and ushers have to shoo the people out causing a big commotion as the mass begins.

 

[Dorpie]

Haha, it seems to be annoyance week on the forum.

Not being a religious person perhaps I have no right to complain and shouldn't have been there, but attending pilgrim mass with obviously bandaged feet and conspiculously limping no-one seemed to even contemplate offering me a seat, let alone actually doing so. I also so saw a good number of frail and elderly people left standing for the long service while people who seemed (my judgement, I can't know these things for sure) distinctly unaffected by passage of time or walking of kilometres relaxed in their seats.

It was just my one experience (I didn't even bother trying last year) but it left a bad taste. I don't know what the arrangement is now but I do feel if they're going to call it a Pilgrim Mass then people who have actually walked/ridden should get priority of entry, a trust system I hope would suffice.

 

[Saint Mike II]

Hola @caminowilts & @Dorpie were you able to determine if the "culprits" were your (once) fellow pilgrims or bus tourists or locals?
Unfortunately there is a perception (imho) that the pilgrims & their mass are a necessary evil that has to be suffered by the Cathedral administration (and the bus tourists) even though it has a history of, perhaps, a thousand years (again my opinion). So its unlikely that pilgrims (genuine ones - not the 100km ones) will be afforded such a priority.
As I see it and I have been to Santiago 3 times the reason for the "crush" in the wings (the South & North sides of the Cathedral) is that if the butofomero is going to swing then this is the best view point.
Except on feast days I get the impression that you rarely see a local at the pilgrims mass. Without being able to speak either reasonable Spanish nor Galacian I cannot get this confirm or explained!

 

[Dorpie]

Hola @Saint Mike II

My suspicion, perhaps built on prejudice rather than any certainty, was that a large proportion of the congregation hadn't walked. This was largely based on all the stuff they had and the clothes they wore but I suppose it's possible a number of them had had things sent ahead.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

The Parador crowd also is there and acting that way. The Cathedral security people do what they can, and make a lot of announcements about photos, flash, recording, and quiet. They don't work. It is just another annoyance to get over. The botafumeiro is worth it.

 

[elleley]

Interesting to read this, as during my three pilgrimages, about the only significant rudeness was in the Catedral in Santiago during the mass. I don't understand why pilgrims are not given priority seating!! It's pretty clear who are the pilgrims in the crowd. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

why pilgrims are not given priority seating

We ARE special, aren't we?

 

[caminowilts]

The people I expect to show more respect are the ones dressed like they’ve walked a fair distance.

 

[MagnusPompey]

It is why you walk and think, along the way. The Buddha’s enlightenment was "that all suffering is man made". Do not allow the rights or wrongs of your fellows to impinge on your social activities. The botafumeire is to cleanse the smell of your suffering, enjoy it.

 

[wayfarer]

All pilgrims, whether they have walked 1000km or 100km are genuine pilgrims IMO, its what is in your heart is what makes you a genuine pilgrim.

 

[t2andreo]

Remember that not all attendees at a Mass are pilgrims, even though it might be a Pilgrim's Mass. Most of the attendees at any Pilgrim's Mass are tourists, there for the day, and for the spectacle of the Botafumeiro after the formal conclusion of the Mass, not necessarily the celebration of the Holy Mass.

In fact, the use of the Botafumeiro was moved to after the Mass, instead of before the Mass, as the presiding priest would lose control of the congregation as soon as the organ started to play. This detracted from the celebration of the Mass, so needs must, and some years ago, the Archbishop moved this tourist attraction to AFTER the Mass. The Botafumeiro ceremony starts ONLY after the priest gives the final blessing and announces... 'the Mass is ended....go in peace..."

We have a saying out on Camino... "Tourists demand...pilgrims are grateful..." That said, I suspect that some of the bad behavior COULD be from pilgrims. I cannot absolve them of all culpability. But, in my many attendances at Mass in the Cathedral, I lay most all the "blame" on the hordes of tourists who EXPECT to see the Botafumeiro and are miffed when their expectations are not met..loop back to first sentence of this paragraph...

To clarify as to when the Botafumeiro is used, the Church uses the Botafumeiro at its expense only for Catholic Holy Days, and several special saint feast days, or some key Catholic days, like Christmas and Easter, etc.

At all other times, it is flown by subscription or payment. A group or individual must pay the fee (make the requisite donation) to cover the costs attendant in using the Botafumeiro and preparing it for the next use. I recall that in 2017, the customary amount was about €400.

Note, the fellows handling the Botafumeiro and pulling the ropes have to be paid each time. They are not religious workers. They are lay persons from the community.

FYI, staff at the Pilgrim Office coordinate and schedule the non-Church covered aspects of this ceremony. Despite this, the schedule is never made public. Even those of us who work there have no idea about the schedule. The sole clue is when one or more of the staff quietly excuse themselves from processing pilgrims at about 12:15 each day. These fellows are in the crew who pull the ropes. When they leave, the rest of us know why. But this is very hit and miss.

Recently, I have started to see large groups, 50 or so, of people who apparently are from cruise liners. The cruise liners dock at Vigo, which has a deep water port capable of handling large ocean-going vessels. From there, coaches / buses convey hordes of these tourists to Santiago.

Two weeks ago, while I was at Santiago for six days following my annual Camino, I observed dozens of these groups, led by guides carrying "lollipop" signs (round signs looking like mutant table tennis paddles). Each sign had a the logo of the cruise line (like MSC, or similar) AND a number designating the group ID.

Each of the tourist members of that group wore a round, adhesive label on their chest with the same logo and group ID number. This alone suggested that each ship sends multiple groups (identified by group numbers) at a time.

We need to face up to the fact that this is a phenomenon that will not go away. The city of Santiago de Compostela, and the entire cult of Santiago is attractive to many people for many reasons. Our reason happens to be the Camino.

But, for others, including firms and cruise lines seeking to make profit from providing tourists an additional 'experience," Santiago de Compostela is sort of like a 'middle ages theme park.' Untouched by war damage and a center of pilgrimage for more than 1,200 years, it has everything that would attract tourists.

Unlike most of the rest of Europe, the primary "old town" is undisturbed by urban renewal. It's 800-year old (+) buildings and streets appear more or less as they always have. The old, arcaded streets maintain their charm with none of the overt commercialism that the rest of Europe is replete with. The 'new town" is conveniently organized to be distant and separate. There are few very old cities or large towns in the rest of Europe that can claim this status...and many of them are in Spain or Portugal.

And, in this context, the pilgrims, in their rucksacks and sometimes strange apparel are one of the prime attractions. We do not have to like this. But, we DO have to suck it up and just find a way to cope. We are, as pilgrims, exhibits in this zoo.

Personally, I know the streets and alleys well enough to navigate around the bulk of the tourism center surrounding the Cathedral. I know the schedules of Masses and opening hours of the places I visit, as well as alternative routes to get to and from most any point, WITHOUT passing through Plaza Obradoiro, in front of the Cathedral.

This is also a wise security measure as we approach the Feast of Santiago on 25 July. With the Plaza Obradoiro so packed with pilgrims and tourists at all times, I simply avoid the crowd gathering, taking quiet alternative routes to and from the Pilgrim Office. It is simply more tranquil and safer on many levels.

Just as an observation, the next Holy Year is 2021. Building to and coming off that seminal religious observation (when Santiago's feast day falls on a Sunday) the crowds will increase and then slowly settle into a new high, as more and more people see the wonders of the city we all love.

Hope this helps.

 

[ranthr]

The Parador crowd also is there and acting that way. The Cathedral security people do what they can, and make a lot of announcements about photos, flash, recording, and quiet. They don't work. It is just another annoyance to get over. The botafumeiro is worth it.

Well, I am not sure that it is only the parador crowd. Quite a lot of peregrinos, Spanish, Americans, Germans, Norwegians, +++++ do not respect announcements about photos, videos etc, I have seen it during all ceremonies I have taken part in. Most pilgrimsforums often have members loading up their pictures and videos from the Botafumeiro!

 

[Irish Bernie]

I have been in Santiago many times post walk but have never attended the cathedral circus that was once a mass,I feel sorry for those who are believers and see the mass as something very important,but the whole thing has become commercial and undignified.I do not have a solution to this problem other than perhaps chose another church to give thanks for yer walk,besides I don't actually believe St Jimmy's bones are even there,just my opinion

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I am a Christian, but not a Catholic and have been to the cathedral 3 times, hoping to see the beautiful swinging incense. Only my last time did I have the joy of seeing it at the end of a very long and somewhat tortuous experience, for me anyway, as I never understand a word and although I arrived fairly early, there were no seats left so I stood the whole time and it was pretty miserable. I never thought to judge those who were seated to wonder if they were or were not a pilgrim, but I did look at them with "envy"...a big no no in the Bible!

 

[William Marques]

It's pretty clear who are the pilgrims in the crowd.

I am not sure that you would have recognised my wife and I as pilgrims, on all of our journeys to Santiago and Rome we have deposited all our stuff at whatever hotel we were staying at in town, washed and scrubbed up as best we could and put on the cleanest clothes we had before we went to the Cathedral for Mass.

 

[Anniesantiago]

The people I expect to show more respect are the ones dressed like they’ve walked a fair distance.

Don't assume.
Not everybody attends immediately after arriving in Santiago.
Many (including me) shower and clean up first.

 

[Dorpie]

@t2andreo

Thanks so much for your insights, they are always worth reading.

Rob.

 

[caminowilts]

Don't assume.
Not everybody attends immediately after arriving in Santiago.
Many (including me) shower and clean up first.

Sorry I was not clear - look dressed as pilgrims as opposed to tourists visiting Santiago.

 

[caminowilts]

Having read the various posts - it makes me think that the cathedral should put flyers up in different languages asking people to give seats up for the elderly and infirm, not to ‘reserve seats’ respect other people during prayer... and state that the security staff could eject people

 

[SabsP]

When I see the desperation and silent resignation of the Cathedral workers and Security staff I feel for them.
Though I must say that I also observed some sparks of pure goodness during the Pilgrim's Mass.

 

[gloria lowe]

Hola @caminowilts & @Dorpie were you able to determine if the "culprits" were your (once) fellow pilgrims or bus tourists or locals?
Unfortunately there is a perception (imho) that the pilgrims & their mass are a necessary evil that has to be suffered by the Cathedral administration (and the bus tourists) even though it has a history of, perhaps, a thousand years (again my opinion). So its unlikely that pilgrims (genuine ones - not the 100km ones) will be afforded such a priority.
As I see it and I have been to Santiago 3 times the reason for the "crush" in the wings (the South & North sides of the Cathedral) is that if the butofomero is going to swing then this is the best view point.
Except on feast days I get the impression that you rarely see a local at the pilgrims mass. Without being able to speak either reasonable Spanish nor Galacian I cannot get this confirm or explained!

St Mike, who are you to decide who is a genuine Pilgrim? No matter how or why they are there they may be a Pilgrim. Each does it their Way and I think this whoke thread is making me sick.

 

[caminowilts]

Who are you to dec

St Mike, who are you to decide who is a genuine Pilgrim? No matter how or why they are there they may be a Pilgrim. Each does it their Way and I think this whoke thread is making me sick.

I think saying the thread is a making you sick is perhaps OTT. I merely started the threa saying why can’t people show the same respect in the cathedral that they show on the Camino.

 

[t2andreo]

I am a Christian, but not a Catholic and have been to the cathedral 3 times, hoping to see the beautiful swinging incense. Only my last time did I have the joy of seeing it at the end of a very long and somewhat tortuous experience, for me anyway, as I never understand a word and although I arrived fairly early, there were no seats left so I stood the whole time and it was pretty miserable. I never thought to judge those who were seated to wonder if they were or were not a pilgrim, but I did look at them with "envy"...a big no no in the Bible!

If you are ever there when I am in town, find me. I will make an effort to find out if and when the Botafumeiro will be used. But, this only works if I am there, working as a volunteer. I cannot do anything remotely.

 

[t2andreo]

@t2andreo

Thanks so much for your insights, they are always worth reading.

Rob.

Thank you, I always appreciate the feedback, positive or not.

 

[Deleted member 73892]

Hola @caminowilts & @Dorpie were you able to determine if the "culprits" were your (once) fellow pilgrims or bus tourists or locals?
Unfortunately there is a perception (imho) that the pilgrims & their mass are a necessary evil that has to be suffered by the Cathedral administration (and the bus tourists) even though it has a history of, perhaps, a thousand years (again my opinion). So its unlikely that pilgrims (genuine ones - not the 100km ones) will be afforded such a priority.
As I see it and I have been to Santiago 3 times the reason for the "crush" in the wings (the South & North sides of the Cathedral) is that if the butofomero is going to swing then this is the best view point.
Except on feast days I get the impression that you rarely see a local at the pilgrims mass. Without being able to speak either reasonable Spanish nor Galacian I cannot get this confirm or explained!

'Genuine Pilgrims' - I don't understand this - who is a 'genuine' pilgrim or otherwise. I walked 110 km Inglés last year, and had the most special experience I could have wished for any of my Caminos. And I, like others, see every Camino I undertake as simply a continuation, one thread woven into our life's experiences. I've also met people along the ways who are simply sport-walking, but end up touched by the Camino and experiences. 100 km or less or more, why judge who is 'genuine'? Yes, the Cathedral is more often than not over flowing with, whether for mass or the spectacle or the experience or whatever. Its a joy and blessing to be there, regardless, and as the great man says, do not judge others, show kindness to widows and orphans - show loving kindness to all, and accept that no one is perfect and we suffer hardships as lessons.

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

genuine ones - not the 100km ones)

Ok , every person who have walked what ever distance is a Pilgrim in my opinion .
Your remark is in my opinion not in place here , sorry .

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

genuine ones - not the 100km ones)

Have an other one , a friend of me walked the Ingliss a few weeks ago and in your words she is not a true Pilgrim. Wrong again .

 

[Camino Chrissy]

If you are ever there when I am in town, find me. I will make certain you are there when the Botafumeiro flies... One has some connections...

Tom, I appreciate that offer. I especially want you to know, once again, how I think of you as a walking encyclopedia, with knowledge on so many Camino related subjects...and the above post you wrote is a prime example. I learned much more about this special city from the details you shared today. Thanks, and yes, it does help!

 

[natefaith]

For those of you who are still to walk in to Santiago in the future, remember that there's another Pilgrim Mass at 7:30pm every evening. At times the botafumeiro swings during this mass as well. It's still a good idea to get there early, but I don't believe it's as crowded as the noon mass.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

Masses happen in the cathedral and surrounding churches and monasteries all through the day, and people who want to worship have their choice of places to go. The tourists who crowd into the cathedral and behave like Disneyland tourists are not there to worship God, they are there for the Botafumeiro Show.
The cathedral authorities have no right to complain about their rude behavior. They're the hucksters who keep the extravaganza going, and market it endlessly everywhere.
To paraphrase Jesus, "my temple should be a house of prayer, but you have made it a flaming circus act."

 

[t2andreo]

To amplify everything above, and following a PM from a Camino colleague, I thought to provide some additional information regarding use of the Botafumeiro.

This said, I echo Rebekah's sentiment's expressed above. It HAS become a circus. The Cathedral could stop it if they really wanted to, but one rather suspects that too many people, earning too much money off the tourist and pilgrim trade locally, are too invested in having this ceremony continue. Hence, it likely will continue.

IMHO, simply giving every security person a bucket of water with instructions to immerse any photographic device used during the Mass would do it. I know a college professor who did that using prop cellphones on the first day of classes each fall and a planted "student." It is HIGHLY effective. Simply announce what will happen if you use a smartphone, then demonstrate the process in front of the high altar. When we say turn it off we mean OFF...or else...

The very first time after that that security moves to confiscate a smartphone or camera used on a dare, the rest of the congregation will get the message...FAST! After all, everyone can see the entire ceremony, including music for free on You Tube hundreds of times over. Taking personal video is simply selfish at this point.

Anyway, I digress... Here is the official list (from the Cathedral website) of the dates that it is guaranteed that the Botafumeiro will be used (at Church expense):

The Epiphany of the Lord: January 6
Easter Sunday
The Ascension of the Lord
The Apparition of the Apostle-Clavijo: May 23
Pentecost (20 May in 2018)
The Martyrdom of Santiago: July 25
The Assumption of Mary: August 15
All Saints: November 1
Christ the King
The Immaculate Conception: December 8
Christmas is on the 25th of December
Transfer of the Remains of the Apostle: December 30

In the late spring and summer months, many groups will pay to have the Botafumeiro used, as I mentioned in my post. This could be a tour group, travel agency, civic organization, a large group of pilgrims, a government organization... just about anyone with the necessary funds.

From June through the end of August, it is a relatively safe bet that the Botafumeiro will be used, especially if a large group is present. For example in May and June, the Spanish military holds all kinds of ceremonies, involving Mass at the Cathedral, usually in concert with the noon Mass. The Botafumeiro will be used.

If you pay attention to what is going on around Santiago, read the local paper "La Voz de Galicia," observe posted signs or posters for fiestas or other celebrations, you can derive hints at whether or not the Botafumeiro will be used. But, this can usually only be done "day of..."

I hope this helps.

 

[jmcarp]

...
But, for others, including firms and cruise lines seeking to make profit from providing tourists an additional 'experience," Santiago de Compostela is sort of like a 'middle ages theme park.' Untouched by war damage and a center of pilgrimage for more than 1,200 years, it has everything that would attract tourists.

Unlike most of the rest of Europe, the primary "old town" is undisturbed by urban renewal. It's 800-year old (+) buildings and streets appear more or less as they always have. The old, arcaded streets maintain their charm with none of the overt commercialism that the rest of Europe is replete with. The 'new town" is conveniently organized to be distance and separate. There are few very old cities or large towns in the rest of Europe that can claim this status...and many of them are in Spain or Portugal.

And, in this context, the pilgrims, in their rucksacks and sometimes strange apparel are one of the prime attractions. We do not have to like this. But, we DO have to suck it up and just find a way to cope. We are, as pilgrims, exhibits in this zoo.
...

This is true, Tom. I have friends that have gone on the standard cruises and tourist tours in which the tour description included phrases like "See the real pilgrims in Santiago" or "Walk along the Camino de Santiago" (for a couple of blocks). However, I can't say I felt like a zoo animal because no one ever tossed me a handful of peanuts .

 

[Anamiri]

We walked in to Santiago around midday, it was soo hot. It was a weird moment, I felt emotionally exposed. Hearing the pipes brought tears, for no explicable reason, and we sat on the stones in front of the cathedral to savour the moment, and compose ourselves. Its kind of odd; for weeks you've been walking towards Santiago and then all of a sudden you are there and it is over. A bit discombobulating.
Then we became aware that a large organised group of tourists were pointing their cameras right at us, and clicking away. I was shocked.
We were the tourist spectacle- the tour leader pointing us out as 'genuine pilgrims',
Between us we were grubby, sweaty, a bit unkempt, and with the odd bandage and plaster. Fair to say I've looked better.
That intrusion, forced us to hasten away from them.

Cleaned up, and tidy, in the evening we attended the 7.30 mass. The cathedral was packed. People ignoring the directions to not use their phones or cameras. People sitting on the seats with enough space for another person or two if they moved closer together. Some people talking through the service. An injured pilgrim sat on the floor by us. With a lot of people it is obvious that they are pilgrims, in a lot of cases the tan lines give it away. And the hobbling, plasters and hiking sandals.
It seemed that many of the congregation were Spanish, maybe locals, maybe pilgrims.

Maybe people forget that it is a church service, I'm sure they wouldn't behave like that in their own church.

 

[Suzanne S.]

When I arrived at Santiago in June 2015, I went to the noon Mass. I am not Catholic but I was so grateful for my pilgrimage, I wanted to show my respect. I sat down in an area I thought was reserved for pilgrims. Alas, I was asked to move by church staff. So I did.

I do not speak Spanish well, so I didn't understand much of the mass, but several times I was moved to tears.

And then, at the end, much to my surprise, they prepared to swing the botafumiero. It was indescribable.

I went back to two additional masses over the next couple of days. It was crowded, it was loud, lots of folks took pictures, but I was blessed to see the botafumiero swing all three times. That's what I remember best. I am still moved...

 

[Anamiri]

You are lucky, I have not yet seen it swing. Hopefully next time.
I loved the service anyway, despite not understanding much of it. The singing was also amazing. Such voices.

 

[Suzanne S.]

@Anamiri , I know. I'm very grateful...

 

[Albertagirl]

I have ended a pilgrimage in Santiago three times. The last time, in November of 2017, I attended mass in the Cathedral three times: not on the day of my arrival, when I was exhausted. I do not like incense and I do not like public circuses, so after the first time on my first pilgrimage, I have been careful to avoid the Botafumeiro. My most prayerful Santiago mass so far was a Sunday mass in St Benet's Church, a parish church filled with local people, for whom it is their usual place of worship. They had service books, which made it much easier for me to follow the service, and places to sit. It is a few minutes' walk from the Cathedral. You might try it sometime.

 

[Saint Mike II]

Wow! I am just a bloke who has completed the journey a couple of times and based my opinion on what I saw during the last 100 km. Yes I am aware of those PILGRIMS who can only manage this distance and to them I offer total respect (and even assistance if it appears necessary).
Its those who arrive in Sarria, dress up in designer "pilgrim gear" (and YES I have seen them do it) and then set off - almost running, not caring who they run into, cut-off or push out of the way. The best example I saw (YES, with my own eyes) were to two women who got out of a car on the east side of the bridge at Portomarin, checked their make-up and THEN splashed water on their faces (imitation sweat?!) picked up their backpacks and proceeded to struggle across the bridge and up the steps to the church. So for those of you who doubt - please tell me, are these genuine pilgrims?

 

[Antonius Vaessen]

For me the word "pilgrim" has a religious connotation, so a non-religious person (like me) can never qualify to be a "genuine pilgrim". I don't like it very much when people judge other people based on their own set of values and motives to walk on caminotrails.
I cannot understand why you want to visit a "tourist attraction" which the pilgrims mass and the swinging of the Butafumiero has become and then complain about the behaviour of the masses. I suspect that for many Camino walkers the swinging of the Butafumiero is a main reason to attend to this mass,( as many people tell that they were disappointed when the Butafumiero did not swing) In this way they, like me on my first arrival in Santiago,, are part of the problem.
I can well understand that for people who walk the Camino this development is a big nuisance but I presume that for them the swinging of the Butafumiero is not the essence of the mass. Like others have said, for them it might be more satisfying to attend Mass in another church, where one's thoughts and prayers are not so much disturbed.

 

[Antonius Vaessen]

In my earlier post, in the last paragraph I forget the words " who walk the Camino for religious reasons"

 

[Purky]

So for those of you who doubt - please tell me, are these genuine pilgrims?

I think that labeling people on the basis of behavior is a sure way to misjudge them. What people do isn't what they are. Behavior doesn't necessarily reflect a person's character or core, let alone their intentions. Especially if it is only one event with that person you've witnessed.
Apart from that, even all of us on this forum, who think about these matters more than the average person, aren't able to sufficiently define a 'true pilgrim' to everyone's liking. I guess the same goes for an 'unsure pilgrim'.

 

[Kathor1]

Do away with the tiraboleiros - men in fancy ancient looking costumes that are in fact a 20th century innovation. Install a mechanism as it is used for ringing church bells all over Europe. Let the Botafumeiro swing a few times per day outside mass times. IOW: separate the Botafumeiro Show from the mass.

 

[Deleted member 73892]

Do away with the tiraboleiros - men in fancy ancient looking costumes that are in fact a 20th century innovation. Install a mechanism as it is used for ringing church bells all over Europe. Let the botafumeiro swing every day for a few hours outside mass times.

I've always been informed that it costs 700€ for the botafumeiro, and that private patrons pay for each one to order. There was a group of local hoteliers who payed regularly, but I read somewhere last year that they have stopped doing this. Santiago is a tourist location beloved of the nation. Where I live is also a major tourist city, and the tourists are pampoured to with displays of local and traditional dress and music, etc. The city relies on the tourists - we even pay a 'tourist tax' here - to cover the city's cost of keeping the tourists happy. The city is on the St. Jacob's Weg, and there is an association that supports this, but tourism is the major focus of the politicians. A bit of pomp and ceremony is to be expected and helps to impress the identity of a city and culture - something residents and non-tourists have to put up with, or enjoy.

 

[William Marques]

A general reminder (not related to the latest posts) not to make personal remarks/attacks, by all means state your case forcefully but try not to personalise arguments or one of the moderators will lock this thread.

 

[Kathor1]

A bit of pomp and ceremony is to be expected and helps to impress the identity of a city and culture - something residents and non-tourists have to put up with, or enjoy.

I understand this point. One aspect that strikes me is that contemporary pilgrims think that the mass labelled as pilgrims mass is a thousand year old tradition exclusively for foot pilgrims who have a record of more than 100 walked kilometers. And, truth be told, that the Botafumeiro ought to swing for them on the day when they are in Santiago ... I empathise with this but it's a misconception.

The 12th century "Pilgrims Guide" doesn't mention a big censer, despite a detailed description of the cathedral. The costumes of the Botafumeiro operators were introduced during the 20th century "to give greater solemnity to the process". On older photos you see them wearing black suits and they don't look that smart. In the 19th century and during the first decades of the 20th century, the Botafumeiro was used only on a very few occasions per year, none of them specifically aimed at pilgrims, let alone foot pilgrims. During recent Jacobean Holy Years, however, it was apparently in operation every day at the noon mass. And until very recently, devout pilgrims arrived by all sorts of means and rarely on foot.

None of this excuses bad behaviour as described in the OP but the fact is that everyone wants to have a good view and a good place, and the open or more covert moves to secure such a place are something you don't see to quite the same extent in other "world famous" cathedrals that can't put on a "Botafumeiro show" against payment of a hefty sum of money.

 

[t2andreo]

I've always been informed that it costs 700€ for the botafumeiro, and that private patrons pay for each one to order. There was a group of local hoteliers who payed regularly, but I read somewhere last year that they have stopped doing this. Santiago is a tourist location beloved of the nation. Where I live is also a major tourist city, and the tourists are pampoured to with displays of local and traditional dress and music, etc. The city relies on the tourists - we even pay a 'tourist tax' here - to cover the city's cost of keeping the tourists happy. The city is on the St. Jacob's Weg, and there is an association that supports this, but tourism is the major focus of the politicians. A bit of pomp and ceremony is to be expected and helps to impress the identity of a city and culture - something residents and non-tourists have to put up with, or enjoy.

You are correct as regards the Botafumeiro, EXCEPT for the cost. As of last year (2017), I was reliably informed at the office that handled the scheduling for the ceremony, that the cost is more like €400.

Until 2016, the local hotel association DID fund the weekly Botafumeiro use at the 19:30 Friday evening Pilgrim Mass. The purpose was to draw crowds who would then go dine in the local restaurants and sleep in the local hotels. However, by 2016 - 2017, the volume of tourists was so great that the association decided they did not have to spend money for the promotion to attract tourists. This was even reported in the local newspaper at the time. On many summer weekends, all hotel rooms are booked and restaurants have more reservations and folks waiting than they can accommodate.

As we draw closer to the next Holy Year in 2021, the impact of tourists on Santiago de Compostela will become more profound. Pilgrims will need to find coping mechanisms, including booking early.

Hope this helps.

 

[Deleted member 73892]

You are correct as regards the Botafumeiro, EXCEPT for the cost. As of last year (2017), I was reliably informed at the office that handled the scheduling for the ceremony, that the cost is more like €400.

Until 2016, the local hotel association DID fund the weekly Botafumeiro use at the 19:30 Friday evening Pilgrim Mass. The purpose was to draw crowds who would then go dine in the local restaurants and sleep in the local hotels. However, by 2016 - 2017, the volume of tourists was so great that the association decided they did not have to spend money for the promotion to attract tourists. This was even reported in the local newspaper at the time. On many summer weekends, all hotel rooms are booked and restaurants have more reservations and folks waiting than they can accommodate.

As we draw closer to the next Holy Year in 2021, the impact of tourists on Santiago de Compostela will become more profound. Pilgrims will need to find coping mechanisms, including booking early.

Hope this helps.

THANK you. Keith

 

[t2andreo]

De nada. Happy to help.

 

[Richard A Stead]

I have been in Santiago many times post walk but have never attended the cathedral circus that was once a mass,I feel sorry for those who are believers and see the mass as something very important,but the whole thing has become commercial and undignified.I do not have a solution to this problem other than perhaps chose another church to give thanks for yer walk,besides I don't actually believe St Jimmy's bones are even there,just my opinion

The clue is in the name Pilgrims Mass not tourist mass or cruise ship etc. The time has come to issue tickets in the office to be given with the Compostela. Only when the actual pilgrims have entered should the rest of the public be admitted. Surely not to hard to arrange.

 

[Irish Bernie]

The clue is in the name Pilgrims Mass not tourist mass or cruise ship etc. The time has come to issue tickets in the office to be given with the Compostela. Only when the actual pilgrims have entered should the rest of the public be admitted. Surely not to hard to arrange.

Would that include package tour 'pilgrims' ?

 

[Maple Leaf Walker]

I don't understand how one can walk so far and yet still cling to beliefs such as "true" pilgrims or that one is owed anything in a church.

 

[Richard A Stead]

Would that include package tour 'pilgrims' ?

All pilgrims who receive a Compostela. Attending the mass was very important for my daughter and I but it was very difficult to actually get in let alone find a seat. I may be wrong but I think for many who attend the mass is not a spiritual experience but just another tourist attraction.i wonder if there was no Botafumerio how many tourists would attend rather than just wander around the cathedral at another time of the day.

 

[Irish Bernie]

All pilgrims who receive a Compostela. Attending the mass was very important for my daughter and I but it was very difficult to actually get in let alone find a seat. I may be wrong but I think for many who attend the mass is not a spiritual experience but just another tourist attraction.i wonder if there was no Botafumerio how many tourists would attend rather than just wander around the cathedral at another time of the day.

At least the Botafumerio would disguise the perfume of the Camino touristos

 

[Dancing Rain]

Walking my Caminos has gradually and gently taught me a profound sense of accepting what is being presented to me at any moment.

My experiences at the Cathedral have had a deep sense of the sacred, with the crowds, noise, phone cameras and crush a part of it all. I have found myself delighting in this great mass of humanity somehow joined together in a moment of time.

For me it has been a process of being in what it is, rather than looking for something else

 

[Deleted member 3000]

The clue is in the name Pilgrims Mass not tourist mass or cruise ship etc. The time has come to issue tickets in the office to be given with the Compostela. Only when the actual pilgrims have entered should the rest of the public be admitted. Surely not to hard to arrange.

I think the name refers to recognizing pilgrims, not who can attend.

 

[Jeff Crawley]

The Parador crowd also is there and acting that way. The Cathedral security people do what they can, and make a lot of announcements about photos, flash, recording, and quiet. They don't work. It is just another annoyance to get over. The botafumeiro is worth it.

After about 3500 Camino kilometres over 15 years I stayed in the Parador in 2016 as a self-indulgent treat - sorry if that causes you umbrage.

 

[Anniesantiago]

I have had just as many moments of disillusion on the Camino as the next person, but in the end, it is what it is - or rather, what it has become.

The bottom line:
If you don't like the way the Spanish people run their business or the way the Church runs the Mass, walk in your own country.

All this complaining won't change a thing... except maybe to discourage others from walking.

Oh WAIT!
Maybe that's a GOOD thing.
Complain on...

 

[Jay Campbell]

On the Camino everyone takes care of everyone. Yet every time I have been to the cathedral (3 Caminos), people are so rude. The savings of seats by pilgrims for others is one very clear example. I see pilgrims hobbling into the catherdral and yet for some pilgrims all acts of generosity disappear - instead personal entitlement seems to kick in. Am I being harsh?

We

On the Camino everyone takes care of everyone. Yet every time I have been to the cathedral (3 Caminos), people are so rude. The savings of seats by pilgrims for others is one very clear example. I see pilgrims hobbling into the catherdral and yet for some pilgrims all acts of generosity disappear - instead personal entitlement seems to kick in. Am I being harsh?

Welcome back to the “real “ world...

 

[lt56ny]

All pilgrims, whether they have walked 1000km or 100km are genuine pilgrims IMO, its what is in your heart is what makes you a genuine pilgrim.

I totally agree that is what is in your heart and not the distance. I have met a handful of pilgrims on the Le Puy, Frances, and Portugues who walked long distances that I would wonder for a moment why they are here? I know we have all encountered a few people like that. I have walked the CF twice and will never walk it again. I personally like solitude when I walk and i know that is getting tougher to find. Which is sad as I met some amazing people from around the world. Some i stay in touch with. But the biggest turn off is Sarria on. I have encountered countless load, rude, drunk and selfish people on the way and especially in Albergues that are there for a cheap vacation. Or to get their Compostela because it looks good on their CV or university application. I am not judging them I am just saying that is why some of those people are on the Camino. They are Pilgrims in name only. It is wonderful to be inclusive and understanding and boy do we need a lot more of that love and generosity of Camino Spirit today. But it becomes dangerous to me to make blanket statements about this (as anything). When you do, I believe you weaken the spirit and love that binds Pilgrims.
You are right distance is meaningless and all hearts that are filled with the Pilgrim spirit are Pilgrims. That goes for ANYONE on earth but not all “Pilgrims” have a Pilgrim heart. Hope that makes sense. )once again writing this on my phone and never check for typos. Jaja I end up deleting posts that way!)

 

[Gypsyqueen]

On the Camino everyone takes care of everyone. Yet every time I have been to the cathedral (3 Caminos), people are so rude. The savings of seats by pilgrims for others is one very clear example. I see pilgrims hobbling into the catherdral and yet for some pilgrims all acts of generosity disappear - instead personal entitlement seems to kick in. Am I being harsh?

Not sure my stance on this but as I’ve just hobbled into Arzúa - began in Irun- ( road nearly all the way ) I can appreciate your view. I’l see what happens on Monday as I hobble into Santiago.

 

[tpmchugh]

Hola @Saint Mike II

My suspicion, perhaps built on prejudice rather than any certainty, was that a large proportion of the congregation hadn't walked. This was largely based on all the stuff they had and the clothes they wore but I suppose it's possible a number of them had had things sent ahead.

On my first time in the cathedral, it was definitely tourists taking the seats and reserving seats for others and the behaviour of one man was, without going into details here, absolutely disgusting and filled me with horror

 

[TaraWalks]

My sister and I walked from SJPDP in 2016. We found great seats for mass but gave them up without hesitation when we saw the elderly locals standing. Regardless of how far I've walked, I would prefer to stand if it meant someone who really needed a seat could have one.

 

[Deleted member 67185]

I couldn't care less about seeing the Botafumeiro. I will not attend the tourist Mass knowing that I may very well become frustrated and irritated at all the touristy, rhubarby detritus that has been described. I do not want to affect others around me at the Mass with my unspoken attitude giving off negative vibes.

Instead, I will find a small chapel, somewhere, to pray and to give God thanks and to attend a Mass. I am not Catholic, but Mass in Santiago would provide a sense of spiritual and religious completion.

Then, I can visit the Cathedral and see the Relics and the Altar, and hug St James.

 

[Marie Helene Maguire]

All pilgrims, whether they have walked 1000km or 100km are genuine pilgrims IMO, its what is in your heart is what makes you a genuine pilgrim.

Truly spoken

 

[t2andreo]

I couldn't care less about seeing the Botafumeiro. I will not attend the tourist Mass knowing that I may very well become frustrated and irritated at all the touristy, rhubarby detritus that has been described. I do not want to affect others around me at the Mass with my unspoken attitude giving off negative vibes.

Instead, I will find a small chapel, somewhere, to pray and to give God thanks and to attend a Mass. I am not Catholic, but Mass in Santiago would provide a sense of spiritual and religious completion.

Then, I can visit the Cathedral and see the Relics and the Altar, and hug St James.

Catholic Mass in English is celebrated at 10:00 Monday - Friday in the Chapel of our Lady of Corticela. As you proceed to exit the Cathedral via the North Portico, it is the last chapel on the right, on the main floor, BEFORE you go up the stairs towards the exit. On Saturday's this Mass is at 09:00. On Sunday, there is no English Mass...that I am aware of.

You enter the Catherdral (WITHOUT your Rucksack) via the South Portico and Transept just off Plaza das Praterias, the one with the water fountain at the base of the stairs...adjacent to the Museo de Peregrinacion. Once inside, make your way around the main altar and head towards the exit on the North side, keeping to your right.

The Chapel of our Lady of Corticela is on your right behind bars that resemble an old prison cell. There is a statue of the Blessed Mother holding a silver heart pierced by sen daggers representing the seven sorrows of Mary.

Hope this helps.

 

[domigee]

After about 3500 Camino kilometres over 15 years I stayed in the Parador in 2016 as a self-indulgent treat - sorry if that causes you umbrage.

Yeah, I'm jealous, I never have.... Next time

 

[domigee]

I couldn't care less about seeing the Botafumeiro. I will not attend the tourist Mass knowing that I may very well become frustrated and irritated at all the touristy, rhubarby detritus that has been described. I do not want to affect others around me at the Mass with my unspoken attitude giving off negative vibes.

But.... It really isn't that bad! Same as you hear walking from StJean without stopping in Orisson is a no no, same with the Pilgrim's Mass! Yes, it's crowded. Yes, the people filming the botufumeiro are really, really annoying.... But it's part of life! You've arrived, you're part of a Mass.... To me it's all good.

And as a by the by, I regularly go to Mass in Spain in a non touristy place.... People arrive late, people talk, have pushchairs cluttering up the aisle and uncontrolable babies.... Phones that go off.... You name it... (Quite different to what I have experienced in Paris or now the UK.) They don't even all kneel at the right times lol
But they are there

 

[Deleted member 67185]

Catholic Mass in English is celebrated at 10:00 Monday - Friday in the Chapel of our Lady of Corticela. As you proceed to exit the Cathedral via the North Portico, it is the last chapel on the right, on the main floor, BEFORE you go up the stairs towards the exit. On Saturday's this Mass is at 09:00. On Sunday, there is no English Mass...that I am aware of.

You enter the Catherdral (WITHOUT your Rucksack) via the South Portico and Transept just off Plaza das Praterias, the one with the water fountain at the base of the stairs...adjacent to the Museo de Peregrinacion. Once inside, make your way around the main altar and head toward s the exit on the North side, keeping to your right.

The Chapel of our Lady of Corticela is on your right behind bars that resemble an old prison cell. There is a statue of the Blessed Mother holding a silver heart pierced by sen daggers representing the seven sorrows of Mary.

Hope this helps.

Thank you, t2andreo. This is going in my notepad app on the iPhone.

 

[t2andreo]

De nada. Happy to help.

 

[Deleted member 67185]

But.... It really isn't that bad! Same as you hear walking from StJean without stopping in Orisson is a no no, same with the Pilgrim's Mass! Yes, it's crowded. Yes, the people filming the botufumeiro are really, really annoying.... But it's part of life! You've arrived, you're part of a Mass.... To me it's all good.

And as a by the by, I regularly go to Mass in Spain in a non touristy place.... People arrive late, people talk, have pushchairs cluttering up the aisle and uncontrolable babies.... Phones that go off.... You name it... (Quite different to what I have experienced in Paris or now the UK.) They don't even all kneel at the right times lol
But they are there

You're right, it is part of life and it isn't exactly a surprise to know how things can be during the service.

What is a bit ironic is that St James is the author of the Book of James in the Bible -- which has been called the practical handbook for Christians -- and he addressed this very thing in Chapter 1 versus 3 - 4:

3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

So for Christ followers, dealing with improprieties and rudeness and other stuff during a time of worship and reflection would be a bit of the trying of faith in that sucking it up and not taking it out on others builds our patience towards others. Sort of like walking the Camino toughens up one's feet.

 

[domigee]

You're right, it is part of life and it isn't exactly a surprise to know how things can be during the service.

What is a bit ironic is that St James is the author of the Book of James in the Bible -- which has been called the practical handbook for Christians -- and he addressed this very thing in Chapter 1 versus 3 - 4:

3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

So for Christ followers, dealing with improprieties and rudeness and other stuff during a time of worship and reflection would be a bit of the trying of faith in that sucking it up and not taking it out on others builds our patience towards others. Sort of like walking the Camino toughens up one's feet.

Something like that will have to re-read those chapters though... , I am not that learned (or rather, I have forgotten a lot)

 

[Deleted member 73892]

You're right, it is part of life and it isn't exactly a surprise to know how things can be during the service.

What is a bit ironic is that St James is the author of the Book of James in the Bible -- which has been called the practical handbook for Christians -- and he addressed this very thing in Chapter 1 versus 3 - 4:

3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

So for Christ followers, dealing with improprieties and rudeness and other stuff during a time of worship and reflection would be a bit of the trying of faith in that sucking it up and not taking it out on others builds our patience towards others. Sort of like walking the Camino toughens up one's feet.

It is a perfect 'handbook', one to be consulted regularly as a reminder to us all. Its practicle common sense, with a 'backbone' of christian, spiritual or non-faith/humanist , down-to-earth lets-make-life-and-this-world a better place for everyone doctrine. I read the Methodist 'Good News' version, written in plain english. Love it.

 

[Donna Sch]

Just go and take your chances. If the botafumeiro swings, great. But surely there is more to the service than just that. The Camino provides what you need, not what you want.

 

[SupaDupa]

On the Camino everyone takes care of everyone. Yet every time I have been to the cathedral (3 Caminos), people are so rude. The savings of seats by pilgrims for others is one very clear example. I see pilgrims hobbling into the catherdral and yet for some pilgrims all acts of generosity disappear - instead personal entitlement seems to kick in. Am I being harsh?

My mother and I left our seats for communion and wen we returned to our seats, new people were sitting in them. They eventually moved after I explained these were our seats and we’d Just had communion. They were not happy. Astonishing!

 

[Pauinetmc]

Hola @caminowilts & @Dorpie were you able to determine if the "culprits" were your (once) fellow pilgrims or bus tourists or locals?
Unfortunately there is a perception (imho) that the pilgrims & their mass are a necessary evil that has to be suffered by the Cathedral administration (and the bus tourists) even though it has a history of, perhaps, a thousand years (again my opinion). So its unlikely that pilgrims (genuine ones - not the 100km ones) will be afforded such a priority.
As I see it and I have been to Santiago 3 times the reason for the "crush" in the wings (the South & North sides of the Cathedral) is that if the butofomero is going to swing then this is the best view point.
Except on feast days I get the impression that you rarely see a local at the pilgrims mass. Without being able to speak either reasonable Spanish nor Galacian I cannot get this confirm or explained!

The "genuine ones"? Seriously?

 

[Icacos]

My mother and I left our seats for communion and wen we returned to our seats, new people were sitting in them. They eventually moved after I explained these were our seats and we’d Just had communion. They were not happy. Astonishing!

Feel I have to weigh in here. Perhaps these people were of a different religion. I believe there are some religions where it is acceptable to come and go at whatever time during a service. [I could be wrong; it's been known to happen.] Perhaps these people had no idea what 'communion' is, and genuinely thought your seats had been vacated. The cathedral is open to all, no matter one's religion. Just a thought.

 

[SabsP]

Feel I have to weigh in here. Perhaps these people were of a different religion. I believe there are some religions where it is acceptable to come and go at whatever time during a service. [I could be wrong; it's been known to happen.] Perhaps these people had no idea what 'communion' is, and genuinely thought your seats had been vacated. The cathedral is open to all, no matter one's religion. Just a thought.

Indeed just what I observed a month ago in the same cathedral. A couple standing next to me were happy when I explained them this and also when I told them the significance of the" Peace be with you" and the handshake. So not everything is done out of rudeness.

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

Di nada. Happy to help.

Hi Tom , we think it is De nada instead off Di nada .

Wish you well.

 

[t2andreo]

By jove! You ARE correct... Thank you for the correction.

 

[Kathor1]

Indeed just what I observed a month ago in the same cathedral. A couple standing next to me were happy when I explained them this and also when I told them the significance of the" Peace be with you" and the handshake. So not everything is done out of rudeness.

You mean you had to stop these people from rushing to the seats of those who went to the altar for communion? I dunno ... is it really too much to expect some rudimentary knowledge and to keep in the background when people choose to attend a Christian church service who had never done so once before in their lives?

 

[SabsP]

You mean you had to stop these people from rushing to the seats of those who went to the altar for communion? I dunno ... is it really too much to expect some rudimentary knowledge and to keep in the background when people choose to attend a Christian church service who had never done so once before in their lives?

Well in their defense they were not rushing to the seats. And with their further informative questions I found them genuinely interested.
But indeed like you said : if I would be in their situation I would do some more research but that is me...

 

[Kathor1]

Well in their defense they were not rushing to the seats. And with their further informative questions I found them genuinely interested.

Yes, that's what I meant: observing basic rules of behaviour and respect is different from not knowing what the various acts of the faithful and of the priest mean and wanting to learn about it.

 

[SabsP]

Yes, that's what I meant: observing basic rules of behaviour and respect is different from not knowing what the various acts of the faithful and of the priest mean and wanting to learn about it.

I guess some people are by nature less curious about culture/rituals etc...
Hey maybe I am the odd one out...in school I was that weird kid that did well in history...

 

[Deleted member 73892]

My Austrian girlfriend - on her first visit to England with me, could not believe how everyone politely qued in supermarkets, shops, at bus stops, cinema, etc etc. She really was impressed and told her friends and family about it when we got back to Austria. Many agreed with her, having also been to the UK. Others were in awe. My experience here in Austria is that queing is a weakness, unfortunately, although there are some (few), who do, and are surprised when I am polite about letting someone in front of me in a que or have my seat on a bus. On the local buses I rarely see (unfortunately), a younger person giving up their seat for an elderly, or otherwise needy, passenger.
My point is, that this 'problem' in the Cathedral is not just limited to there - its all around us, inherent and inciped. And ask yourselves - have you ever 'pushed-in' or ignored a needy train, plane or bus passenger? I'm not perfect, I just find this discussion has broader aspects to it, one we need to take with us and pass on in possitve ways in society as a whole, if possible. I, too, have been exasperated by being the first to sit and wait for an alberque to open its doors, only for late arrivals to push-in and grab the first available beds. So its not just the cathedral, and we pilgrims are not 'perfect' Patience, my freinds, patience, if t all possible

 

[Kathor1]

My point is, that this 'problem' in the Cathedral is not just limited to there - its all around us, inherent and inciped.

Yeah, I don't know why I feel so unforgiving about these seat grabbers during Communion ... I mean how long does it take to figure out that people get up, move forward, do something I can't see and don't know about, come back and sit down again ... and to feel mortified about your innocent mistake, apologize and retreat.

 

[Deleted member 73892]

I'm gonna throw this spanner into the works: Is booking a bed ahead of everyone else 'pushing-in'? Does anyone have the right to do that, really, to pressume to take the bed of pilgrims ahead of them - who may even have injuries or afflictions, be elderly or very young. and are in need of a bed? Is it not the same as pouncing on an available space to sit at the cathedral? Think about it, I'm curious and welcome your thoughts.

 

[SabsP]

Yeah, I don't know why I feel so unforgiving about these seat grabbers during Communion ... I mean how long does it take to figure out that people get up, move forward, do something I can't see and don't know about, come back and sit down again ...

Again I must say that after Communion some people went to another aisle because they saw that preparations for the Botufameiro were underway.
So they wanted to have a better view. Also a behaviour I don't understand but it is what it is.

 

[Older Guy]

I did my Camino for multiple reasons: religious, tourism, athletic challenge, contemplation as I was not with others I knew. This is an interesting topic.

For me the experience of Confession just prior to the start of the Mass followed by the Mass was one of the most moving religious experiences of my life. I really felt forgiven and I felt God's love. I was impressed with everything in knowing that I was one of millions who has seen this Pilgrims Mass that has changed little for a long long time. I saw what relatives of mine could have seen hundreds of years ago.

Yes, so many were there being the worst of Disneyland-like tourist interrupting and distracting from the Mass, but I get it. I can understand why people would get excited and want to capture some of the wonder of the service. I can understand why the "tourist industry" in and around Santiago needs to cater to the tourists, just like Disneyland caters to and creates tourist experiences.

I think that the Pilgrims Mass is a two-edged sword. Part of it is a sacred thing that should not be defiled, part of it is a centuries old tradition designed for tourists (some of whom are pilgrims and some of whom are there for the spectacle). I think that some tourists can attend it for religious purposes, but I would hope that tour operators would lecture and police their customers on that the Mass is also a deeply religious experience for some.

 

[Saint Mike II]

The "genuine ones"? Seriously?

YES

 

[Deleted member 67185]

I'm gonna throw this spanner into the works: Is booking a bed ahead of everyone else 'pushing-in'? Does anyone have the right to do that, really, to pressume to take the bed of pilgrims ahead of them - who may even have injuries or afflictions, be elderly or very young. and are in need of a bed? Is it not the same as pouncing on an available space to sit at the cathedral? Think about it, I'm curious and welcome your thoughts.

I know what you are trying to get at, Keith, but I don't see the analogy. Booking a bed via a reservation is an established, formal, and orderly protocol allowed by an individual lodging establishment or alburgue. There is no such established protocol at the Cathedral.

 

[Deleted member 73892]

I know what you are trying to get at, Keith, but I don't see the analogy. Booking a bed via a reservation is an established, formal, and orderly protocol allowed by an individual lodging establishment or alburgue. There is no such established protocol at the Cathedral.

I see what you mean - but are there established protocols also about giving up a seat or your place in a que for someone who needs it more than yourself? Would someone who's booked a bed on their Camino arrive to find someone who needs it more than themselves give it up for them? I'm getting at human nature here, not just written protocols, and how selfish we all are. Established protocols have their place. and purpose. No one's perfect, but we have a conscience and moral/spiritual/social obligations toward one another. If people could book their place on-line for the Mass and Botafumeiro, I have no doubt they would, and it would become more of a 'performance' than it is on the verge of becoming. With such 'bookings', people would be left outside and not allowed entry, like any theatre or show. Its hyperthetical, I know, but worth consideration. I believe the Caminos have become much more popular because people can sit at home, often on the other side of the world, and book way ahead, then fly/travel in and be assured of their comfort. How many would not take the adventure if these 'comfort' aspects were not assured, I wonder? I'm not criticising, the caminos have been opened-up to many thousands more people for all sorts of reasons.
We are talking 'unwritten' protocol regarding the Mass and the Cathedral - morals and conscience which rely upon human nature. We're all the same, the whole planet, although some cultures and societies are commited to these unwritten yet established protocols far more than our increasingly selfish behaviours. I still stand by my first 'spanner', and want to search deeper about this. Look forward to any replies. LLN Keith

 

[Deleted member 67185]

I see what you mean - but are there established protocols also about giving up a seat or your place in a que for someone who needs it more than yourself? Would someone who's booked a bed on their Camino arrive to find someone who needs it more than themselves give it up for them? I'm getting at human nature here, not just written protocols, and how selfish we all are. Established protocols have their place. and purpose. No one's perfect, but we have a conscience and moral/spiritual/social obligations toward one another. If people could book their place on-line for the Mass and Botafumeiro, I have no doubt they would, and it would become more of a 'performance' than it is on the verge of becoming. With such 'bookings', people would be left outside and not allowed entry, like any theatre or show. Its hyperthetical, I know, but worth consideration. I believe the Caminos have become much more popular because people can sit at home, often on the other side of the world, and book way ahead, then fly/travel in and be assured of their comfort. How many would not take the adventure if these 'comfort' aspects were not assured, I wonder? I'm not criticising, the caminos have been opened-up to many thousands more people for all sorts of reasons.
We are talking 'unwritten' protocol regarding the Mass and the Cathedral - morals and conscience which rely upon human nature. We're all the same, the whole planet, although some cultures and societies are commited to these unwritten yet established protocols far more than our increasingly selfish behaviours. I still stand by my first 'spanner', and want to search deeper about this. Look forward to any replies. LLN Keith

No, there are no established protocols for kindness and politeness. There is no such thing as an 'unwritten' protocol; by its very definition a protocol has to exist in order to be placed into formal practice. The fact that kindness and politeness are up to the individual to incorporate in his/her decision making means that an enforceable protocol does not exist. There is no coordinator or registrar or doorman which takes politeness requests and shuffles those who need the advantage of kindness to the front of the line. It is, as you have observed, up to the internal values of those around, in proximity of others in need.

What you are trying to describe are societal expectations.

But societal expectations, as a factor for influencing the politeness, kindness, and consideration of others, is only as strong as its lack of tolerance for a deviation of those behaviors. And we agree that we live in times which have increasingly grown less tolerant, not of those who deride and ignore good behaviors, but of those who expect and demand good behaviors.

That is not a system of based on protocols, but more akin to behavioral anarchy.

As such, you are trying to compare two separate yet diverse things:

The first; formal reservation systems for lodgings that are available for all to use, regardless of physical condition, and which, as a system, is not based on individual behavior and has no ability to determine 'need'.

The second; individuals who, of themselves, are able to immediately apply the morals of behavior and the politeness of common courtesies in order to assess the condition of fellow human beings and then act on that condition. Or not

While I still stand by my previous point regarding analogies, I strongly agree with your overall thesis.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

formal reservation systems

As on Seinfeld??

 

[Jeff Crawley]

Yeah, I'm jealous, I never have.... Next time

Between you and me the one in Leon was, I thought, much nicer. OK, TWO Paradors on one Camino - don't judge me, it was the last, ever time on the Camino.

Er, until next Monday

 

[domigee]

Between you and me the one in Leon was, I thought, much nicer. OK, TWO Paradors on one Camino - don't judge me, it was the last, ever time on the Camino.

Er, until next Monday

Oooh! I DO judge you! ;-)

Wow, that's really soon, have a lo-ve-ly time

 

[grayland]

What else can be said????? Everyone has had a good opportunity to vent.

Closed until the next thread on this subject is started....as it always does..