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When is a pilgrim not a pilgrim

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Jopoke

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Time of past OR future Camino
Camino Frances September 2015
Lisbon to Santigo May 2016
Porto coastal route to Santiago Oct 2016
We started the VdlP a couple of weeks ago and this is the first camino I've done and found so many pilgrims take a taxi half way through the day. I know it is really hot but is this right? I understand you may need to take a taxi because of illnesses ect but it seems these decisions are taken before the walk starts. We have had intentions of staying at certain places and then found that albergues are closed only to walk another 10kms but we have met several pilgrims who know they are ordering taxis to get to their destination.
In my opinion picking up their compostella with pride is hypocritical. Better to take time and walk in different stages than take taxis. What do you think?
 
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My thoughts are that only the individual knows their own true circumstances, abilities, reasons, etc.. Since it has no affect on me or my experience, I really don't mind if they drove to SDC. Who knows, perhaps the holy spirit was navigating from the passenger seat
 
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I probably wouldn't grab a taxi but you never know what might come up during the day. If one of my friends hadn't given me an anti-inflammatory for leg pain I might have done just that.

However, whether it was always the plan for someone to take a taxi doesn't not really take anything away from my own experience.
 
The only requirement for the Compostela is to walk the last 100km into Santiago getting two stamps per day. The VdlP is 1000km long (approximately). So up until those last 100km (ie the majority of the Via) no-one taking a taxi is “cheating” as you call it, in any way. I know from my own experience that on the Via there can be long stages with little in between and many people simply do not have the stamina or physical ability to walk every stage. Be thankful you can.
 
Oh, and as an extra thought, the money paid to those taxis are bringing much needed revenue to the area. That in turn feeds into the local economy and encourages the building of more infrastructure to support pilgrims. All good.
 
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I'm sure that it's not only the VDLP where taxis are used for whatever reasons. I feel that we shouldn't judge other peoples actions on their journey, it is for them to decide if what they are doing is right. I just concentrate on my journey and hope that I am doing it right.
 
I'm sure it's not an issue on the VdelaP, but once you get near to Santiago, it surely is. I walked in July from Lugo with a true Lion of the Camino along the very crowded last km. from Arzua. We found we had to take rooms that were off the camino, or back a few km. from where we'd ended the day. The only way to not drop from exhaustion was to get a cab back and forth. We did it.
The Final Judgement hasn't happened yet, but we have not yet been stripped of our Pilgrim Credentials.
 
I met Pilgrims who for medical reasons too a taxi on the early stages of their Camino. I met Pilgrims who were told not to take certain trails by police do to heavy rainfall turning the trail into a shallow running creek. I have no problem with those folks saying hey, I am going to take a taxi or train and then wait out the rain far enough ahead to meet my Compostela distance requirement.

For me being a "real" pilgrim was about why I was called to the Camino, about attending several Masses along the way and making the trip at least partly religious experience, about staying at some of the lodging run by religious organizations, about talking and sharing stories with fellow pilgrims, about carrying a St. James medallion and contemplating the Saint, about Confession and Mass in Santiago, hugging the statue of St. James behind the alter and praying for St James blessing in the crypt.

If I remember correctly one can get a Compostela and be a "recognized pilgrim" if you sail in a small sailboat a certain distance. I could be wrong in that, but it is more about what you learn and experience on your journey to Santiago than on your method of travel.
 
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You can waste a lot of time and emotional energy wondering about that stuff @Jopoke
Not worth even going there mate. Better not to judge, because often we are wrong.
We all walk the Camino in our own way, and we have no idea what is going on in the minds and bodies of those around us.
I've had to jump short sections in a taxi before. (Never in the last 100 kms)
As I ran out of time.
Because a doctor told me not to walk for a day.
Because my wife could walk no further that day due to the pain of Plantaar Faciitis.

I related a story here of meeting 2 ladies carrying small day packs, who were meeting their husbands later who had gone ahead in the 'support car'.
One of the husbands was blind, and walked as much as he could each day, before his Brother drove him ahead to wait for their wives.
The man's wife had led him over the Pyrenees.

Just better not to worry yourself about what others are doing

But CYCLISTS! Well, don't get me going on those Lycra clad, whooping 'peletons' of Italian pseudo Pilgrims, who should be on the roads not the 'foot' paths..........
Just kidding.........
 
I resorted to taking the train for a couple of days when I had such bad blisters I could not walk! Believe me, it takes all the fun out of it! So boring and rather depressing actually. It wasn't on the VdlP but on the via Francigena. There were two us walking and we had booked accommodation ahead and flights back so there was no question of my staying behind....
So yes, I feel sorry for those people who for some reason have to take transport. Enjoy the fact that YOU can walk I certainly did once my feet were healed.
 
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The focus is on reducing the risk of failure through being well prepared. 2nd ed.

Many others have given some insightful and thoughtful comments. I would add that, from the earliest pilgrims, is there any doubt that some would periodically catch a ride on an animal, or a cart or wagon for some portion of Camino if such were offered?
 
What other people do is their business. What I do is my business. And there's no shortage of places where I fall short. If I mind other people's business that's a lot of wasted energy. Besides, I can't control what others do (or anything else, for that matter).

So what do I think? I think Jesus has some really good advice for all of us:
" And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"
[Mods, feel free to edit the source if you think this is too religious, but please leave the quote. ]
 
davebugg said:
...I would add that, from the earliest pilgrims, is there any doubt that some would periodically catch a ride on an animal, or a cart or wagon for some portion of Camino if such were offered?
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Not to mention the rich that paid others to walk it for them.
 
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It's a matter between the individual and God ... sometimes God whispers, and sometimes there has to be the proverbial "handwriting on the wall" ... sometimes, people are so deaf and blind that they are unaware that God is indeed speaking thru them (He often speaks thru other people/events) ... Your heart/soul has to be open ... and one can never judge when another person's heart/soul is open ... not by external activities, and certainly not at a moments notice ...

A year ago, I would have declared that a pilgrim isn't a pilgrim when he/she is more interested in comfort/convenience ... is more interested in saving time than with living the experience (note: if your mind or heart is elsewhere, then your mind or heart isn't in the here-and-now) ... A year ago I would have said that a non pilgrim has no sense of "spiritual space" ... (call me old fashioned, but I need "quiet time") ... Now, I'm really not too sure about all those "requirements" I've conjured up ...
 
jozero said:
Since it has no affect on me or my experience, I really don't mind if they drove to SDC.
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Have you ever thought about the one dollar and the hundred dollar bill in the United States? They are the exact same size. Made from the exact same paper. Made with the exact same ink. And they both cost the same to make. With the exception of the artwork, they are identical.

Yet, we as a society assign greater value to the one hundred dollar bill. Why? We believe in the system. We believe in what they represent.

Just like the diploma on your doctor's wall. You want to trust its real.

I want my Compostella to have value and represent something. I want people to trust it. Not wonder if I taxied my way across Spain before I lied to the church to obtain it.
 
Dominique, you are of completely different sort of pilgrims/walkers that are depicted in the OP I think!

The main dilemma as I see it here is getting the Compostela. Well, only the first time I obtained it (and that was with lots of talking into from my "group", and the second time was "pro vicario") but otherwise for me is the way that matters. As already mentioned thousand times before. We are all pilgrims in a way. Be it in real life or on the Camino.

Exactly because of that - Buen Camino and Ultreia! Enjoy it
 
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I count as a true pilgrimage my first visit to Santiago - by sleeper train! For me the attitude of spiritual awareness is what makes a true pilgrimage - for those of all faiths and of none. What I disliked when I finally walked the VdlP (without benefit of wheels motorised or otherwise thanks to good health and time to do it) were the people who NEVER walked (unless you count from the bus station to the albergue) and yet occupied all the bunks... And who just seemed to be sightseeing on the cheap... By the way even medieval pilgrims used their modern forms of transport if they could afford it.
 
RobertS26 said:
I want my Compostella to have value and represent something. I want people to trust it. Not wonder if I taxied my way across Spain before I lied to the church to obtain it.
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Your camino needs a paper to have value? As you walked, and you know you walked and you know you didn't lie, why look to a piece of paper for validation? As you say, it's arbitrary. But what happens along the way is experience, and that's what matters.
Other people lying can't ever take your camino away.
My compostelas are in a box someplace and they don't really matter. but what's in the heart does.
I don't know, Robert, maybe you've framed yours and have them on a wall. There's nothing wrong with that, at all, but this isn't like a diploma. Surely the stories you have to share when people ask will make it clear you walked, every step.
 
Jopoke said:
is this right?
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In trying to answer your question, I am wondering what is the wrong part. You have walked several routes, so you would have encountered these questions before. Is it just the interruption of the continuous walking that bothers you? Or is it the "planning" to take a taxi when you know there will be a very difficult stage? Is it right to get a ride to the airport on starting a pilgrimage? OK to get a train from Madrid to Seville? How about starting in Seville - is that wrong, or should you walk from Malaga, or Manchester?

RobertS26 said:
I want my Compostella to have value and represent something. I want people to trust it. Not wonder if I taxied my way across Spain before I lied to the church to obtain it.
Click to expand...
I agree that it is wrong to lie to the authorities to get a Compostela. However, I don't think the people the OP is talking about have got within 100 km of Santiago, so that isn't the situation.
 
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Same question different answer. Working as a hospitalero I have been asked for shelter by Freegans and vagabonds living on the generosity of others. Money is evil or not needed. I didn't allow them a bed.
I was running an albergue for pilgrims with credentials. It was my judgement. What would yours have been?
 
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Sorry I'm not judging and I really do think that if you want to get a taxi for whate very reason it's up to you. I sometimes come across wrong. I just wanted your opinion on pilgrims using bus, train, taxi from town to town then say they've done the camino. I know it's up to them, I just wanted to know what other people thought on the matter.
 
I agree that it is a matter of individual choice how everybody makes their camino. However, taking a taxi can put a walker at a disadvantage if it means the latter arrives to find the albergue full up. This has only happened to me once: last year on the Mozárabe between Villaharta and Alcaracejos. I walked the 37km in one go, but two groups taxied to the halfway point, of course got to Alcaracejos long before me, and filled up its (6 bed) albergue, so I had to stay in a hotel. It didn't matter to me, but it might have done to somebody on a tighter budget.
 
I am not out to judge anybody, I speak only for myself. For me an essential part of the Camino was the walking, not just getting from one place to another. The rhythm of walking, the challenges of walking and being out in the nature for long days by myself. Taking taxies, buses or whatever, I would have felt that I was cheating – not cheating others, but cheating myself. But then I was spared for illness, blisters and other bad conditions that might have forced me to think differently.
 
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The question what defines a pilgrim never will get a definitive answer. For me it implies that one walks a Camino with a spiritual or religious reasons. That's why I don't consider myself a pilgrim.
When I walked the VdlP I took a taxi two times. Once I had Planned it beforehand. I wanted to build up my Camino gradually. I thought that 34 kilometers on the third day ( first 16 over an asphalt road) would be too much. (I wasn't the only one who made this choice in Castilblanco) The other time the albergue was full, so I took a taxi to Caceres.
In this albergue I saw what really is an abuse of taxis. People send their backpacks ahead and a fast runner who at arrival put the backpacks of his companions at beds to reserve them. As there was no hospitalero he got away with it. This could have given many discussions if his companions would have arrived before the albergue was complete.
 
Jopoke said:
I just wanted your opinion on pilgrims using bus, train, taxi from town to town then say they've done the camino. I know it's up to them, I just wanted to know what other people thought on the matter.
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Your question comes up regularly on this forum. The core of the question is not "who is a pilgrim", I think. Rather, it's something like "Is there an ethics catalogue for camino users which everyone must adhere to?" The answer is: No, there isn't, and in particular there is no overarching authority that could impose sanctions on those who do not follow such ethics rules if they existed. There is just some kind of diffuse "public opinion" of those interested in contemporary camino pilgrimage/walking.

This distinguishes contemporary camino users from medieval pilgrims who feared such sanctions from judicial or clerical or heavenly authorities, and it distinguishes Compostelas from educational diplomas and banknotes - we don't just trust them, we have laws and institutions who enforce that trust.
 
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It's fair that we all hold our own thoughts about this so I can certainly understand your point. My thoughts are that at the end of my days when I am judged, I don't believe yours or anyone else's efforts or lack of efforts will factor in to my judgement other than my belief that my efforts to be compassionate towards all others regardless of their deeds or misdeeds will be, especially if they are different than my own. I guess time will tell
p.s. I'm willing to wager that anyone who actually knows you has no doubt that you earned your Compostela with integrity... and isn't that all that really matters?
 
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There are thousands of different minds walking the Camino. They all have different outlooks.

I was standing in the queue to get my Compestella today and got chatting with a fellow 'pilgrim'. She couldn't believe that I walked everyday and that I carried my own pack. She walked about an hour or two a day and her group were picked up by minibus and shipped off to the next town. This had been going on for the last ten days. I didn't want to say anything negative and if she has the patience to wait 2 and a half hours for her Compestella then so be it. I made sure I got the Compestella with distance written on it. So many different minds walking on the Camino.

One thing I remember from Rabanal is that the monk there said if we have dignity and we follow truth then we don't need to hide our faces - we walk with face and head held high. I feel I can hold my head high and I walked with faith. The Camino is a giant and I learnt so much from following The Way. I feel somewhat sorry for those who haven't had a profound experience of the Camino (regardless of how far they've walked).
 
davebugg said:
... from the earliest pilgrims, is there any doubt that some would periodically catch a ride on an animal, or a cart or wagon for some portion of Camino if such were offered
Click to expand...

Last year, twice was I offered (unasked) a ride during heavy rain, once (during heavy rain and strong wind I out out my thumb (and what happened a few momnts after starting was just wonderful, for me and most of my fellow New Zealanders) and on about three other occassions I thumbed for the last 2 or 3 km into the next village. One of the latter turned out to be a 25 km jaunt to a marvellous village I would most probably have bypassed if walking.

I have no recriminations on any account.

kia kaha (take care,be strong, get going)
 
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Some thoughts
- if people want to obtain a compostela, just follow the rules of the organisation providing them.
- people follow their own rules about their camino.
- it's usual practice on Shikoku (Japan) to use bus inbetween
- contemplation on route: what does your way of looking at others tell about you?
- buen camino;-)
 
A pilgrim is not a pilgrim when they take trains or taxis to the next albergue 35 km away so they can swim in the ocean that afternoon and deprive those who spent the day walking a bed. If you feet are sore or have blisters go to a hotel and recover, don't deprive an someone who has walked all day a place to sleep. Raining and don't want to walk again, check into a hotel. The Camino appears to be morphing into a place where people can take a cheap vacation in Spain with no consideration of the intent of the journey. For those of you who took taxi, buses, hitchhiked or CHEATED by other means, shame on you. When you look at your Compestella do so with the knowledge you really didn't have what it takes to do, what you know in your heart, to earn it.

Jim Michie
 
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Sorry Jim, a true pilgrim does not pass judgement on the actions of others, without any knowledge of their personal circumstances, their health or reasons for taking alternative means of transport. Last year, I suffered dreadfully with blisters and was told by the doctor at Gernika hospital to give up my Camino after just 5 days. I was saved my the most amazing podiatrist in Bilbao who got me walking again after 2 hrs of treatment on my feet. Did I CHEAT by taking the bus from Gernika to Bilbao, a distance of maybe 25kms to save my Camino - out of a total walk of over 900kms?

Peter
 

OH Jim, I do feel a sadness coming over me reading your words. They do come across as very harsh.
" Cheating " is too heavy to use, as is shaming someone.
You do not know what lives in the heart of the pilgrim that had to take a taxi or a bus.
I had the honour of walking with recovering cancer patients who could not do differently than using a taxi.And no it was not written on their face that they had cancer. So what would your reaction have been?


Note to future pilgrims : don't let the few negative comments here put you off walking a Camino.Most fellow pilgrims are more openminded and generous. Even more : stay true to yourself, listen to your body and heart and do no harm to your fellow pilgrims.
 
Is it ok to provide the name of the podiatrist inBilbao? We are at theBilbao airport now, about to depart after a relatively short walk on Del Norte, cut even shorter by the extensive pavement on the route and the aggravation of my plantar facsiutus. But we will be back...
 
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Jopoke, I am glad to see you coming back in to the conversation. Your question invited a wide variety of reactions/responses. I still haven’t got an answer. We are in the 21st century, each one walking the various Camino routes for different reasons. I think it is in the heart, the desire to step lightly, to be receptive, that we can identify a pilgrim search. On my first Camino we walked with a motley group, sometimes together, sometimes not, all from different countries and for different reasons. I think being open to the gift of each day, each moment, was a common factor in shaping us as pilgrim people. My being pilgrim is really personal and is part of my attempt at walking the Camino of life. Sometimes, I fall flat on my face. Other times, I am silenced by the magic moments of meeting... jopoke, thank you for the question.
 
Oh, and I used to be a purist, but on both VdlP and del Norte I have several times had to take public transportation over stretches of pavement. Nothing else hinders me. I know that it is necessary to do this if I want to keep going, and not hold back my partner. Such is life.
 

Hi Debi.... He is 'Alvaro', a young guy who speaks good English, below are the details and the link..... A truly amazing human being who didn't want to charge me for his and his father's time, until I really insisted. He said 'Officially, I tell you your Camino is over... However, I will repair your feet so you can complete the Camino". And he did. He's walked a Camino and totally got just how much it meant to me to be able to continue. Great that you're going back to complete it.... it's fabulous!

CLÍNICA PODOLÓGICA ERCILLA
Calle de Ercilla, 12 - 1º C, Bilbao, Spain
http://www.clinicapodologicaercilla.com/es/

Pete
 
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Hi Williamlitig, for some odd reason or another, I can't seem to quote your posting ... so I cut and pasted it down below:

"Same question different answer. Working as a hospitalero I have been asked for shelter by Freegans and vagabonds living on the generosity of others. Money is evil or not needed. I didn't allow them a bed.
I was running an albergue for pilgrims with credentials. It was my judgement. What would yours have been?"

I'm a firm believer in the freedom of choice ... both with the service provider and consumer/customer/client ... as long as it wasn't raining, snowing, flooding , late at night or any other pre-apocalyptic scenario, I guess it was acceptable to not allow them a bed (am assuming they had no medical issues? pregnancy or about to give birth on a cold winter night?) ... freedom of choice is important especially with donativos rather than full fledged business establishments ...

it's not as if you're a bakeshop in Oregon ...

am puzzled why they didn't have credentials with them, it's hard enough to get around in the outside world without the usual "norms" of identification ... I would ask you what you meant by "Money is evil or not needed" but it might just take too much time and be considered "off topic" (PM me if you have the time)
 
The first Camino we walked, I let go of all of the anger I had been rehashing for decades over things that happened to me as a child that had lasting negative effects on how I live my life. I realized at some point, after a couple of hundred miles of adjusting to carrying a pack, tending to blisters, and reflecting (and rehashing and rehashing and rehashing), that I was stuck with what was on my back, but I was strong enough to carry it; I could stop being angry about it and stop letting it control my behavior. Learning to carry my stuff was life changing (and I'm NOT saying everyone should carry their stuff ).

I felt extremely guilty when we were called away for ten days for a medical emergency of a relative living in Salamanca because it meant we were going to have take the train from Leon to Sarria in order to make up the time we missed and make it to Santiago (to catch our plane home). I called it the "train of shame" because I knew "everyone" else was walking and struggling while we were whizzing by in comfort on the train. It was an awful feeling and we wished we could be outside on the trail, making our way inch by inch.

FAST FORWARD to Camino number two. I did not really think I was going to have any life changing revelations during our second walk. I learned so much during the first: kindness, forgiveness, compassion, friendship, trust, faith . . . gratitude. However, a miraculous thing happened on the second Camino (in addition to fresh summer veggies that were not available during the first ), I let go of guilt. I forgave myself for all of my flaws and imperfections and the mistakes I made in the past. Of course, I ruminated over these flaws and mistakes endlessly along the way until I had exhausted every possible pathway in my brain; until I pulled myself into the present moment and let go of the things I felt guilty about, but could not change. I learned many other things as well on that second Camino (Roll on rollercoaster is my new mantra) and I now have an urban rooftop vegetable garden.

Why am I writing this? The last thing anyone needs to add to the burden on their back as they are making their way through life and along the Camino whether it is on foot or in a taxi, is GUILT and shame because of their mode of travel. IMHO the Camino is a place of kindness and forgiveness and compassion and love, not shame.

I know the OP is not shaming people or judging them - he just wanted to know our thoughts. Mine are (especially after the second walk) that the Camino is an internal journey and no one really knows the burdens others are carrying inside or how they are navigating and managing their own path.

FYI During the second Camino, we took a taxi for five miles during a thunder and lightening storm and I did not feel guilty about it. I felt really smart.
 
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I am on the Camino Frances now and there have been some days that if a taxi had pulled up next to me I would have jumped in. I learned so much in the first few days that I had wrong that it was very hard to make it (pack to heavy, physically was not as fit as I thought, blisters, etc.) I have a huge respect for anyone who even attempts this now. Three more days to Leon for me.
 
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You will all be GLAD to know that I am now preparing to join the land of the living. I got so ungodly ill here in Spain but I was considering getting a medical evacuation. Fortunately, I do have insurance.

Tomorrow I will be walking from Estella to Montjardin. I will be going very, very slowly. I will be carrying a lot of water. It’s hot out here now. Every day pilgrims comes marching into town really sweaty and tired looking

The flu that I had a really played havoc with my lungs, and I am asthmatic. Last night, I sat in the couch area of the hotel because I was afraid to be alone!


I ready to dial 112 and go to the hospital. Anyway, to the point: First time I walked Camino, Saint John to Santiago. No transport. Carried my pack. Second time, only the two week trip. I did get on a few buses because I wanted to walk into Santiago. And yes, I did it the “correct “ (ha ha!) way.

This time I apparently have to take really good care of myself. If I decide to walk a little or a lot, that’s what I’ll do. Mind is willing, but the body is having some issues.

This isn’t the military. Take care of yourself out there. Sometimes it just made. Be humble: it could happen to anyone.
 
I like the way I was asked a the desk for my Compostela;
" ...and did you manage to walk all the way ", said the British lady...
In this way both answers would have suffised. I was thinking of the time when my knee was playing up and I had been playing up and maybe had to get a bus the last 15 Ks to the city but didn´t..
That I had followed my urge to do it the way I tought proper, and had managed..
I felt good, and grateful.
But luck could have been played otherwise, I could have been forced to make other arrangements....
 
I tried hitchhiking once on the Camino de Madrid my feet hurt so. After 12 days of not seeing one other person and walking, eating and stumbling around alone, I thought why the heck not.
No one picked me up so I kept on walking, but I was praying for a bus or taxi!
 
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Jay, they said they don't use money. This isn't my first rodeo and I have shared albergues with travelers of this sort before I didn't question the choice another hospitalero made, I slept with one eye open and all valuables secured,(just a feeling). I'm now older and I can't understand it, I have hitchhiked in 44 States and 16 countries without asking for anything but a ride and always sharing what I had. Everyday is a new experience. My conscience was clear with the decision I made and why, I meant then no wrong but they were travelers not pilgrims. P.S The weather was fine.
 
CaminoDebrita said:
This isn’t the military. Take care of yourself out there. Sometimes it just made. Be humble: it could happen to anyone.
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Glad indeed to hear that you have rejoined the Camino Deb and good to hear you are taking it slow and taking care of yourself.

We had a hell of a time when we chose to walk from Cartehenga on a variant of the Leveant, it was a hard decision but we chose to take a train over one part where the only other option was 75kms with no access to water or shelter. The local police told us that we would be irresponsible to attempt it. We still felt awful in that we had "skipped" a section. Much later, having walked 800kms we were faced with an even harder choice, to abandon our camino. But this time it was actually much easier to make, Scott couldn't stand, walk or lie down. My only concern was getting him cared for. An ambulance was called for and we were whisked to the nearest hospital, it soon became clear Scott had green fractures in his ribs from overtightening his pack to compensate for weight loss. We made the call, enough is enough, we are not training to join the SAS! When he was comfortable enough to travel we caught the train north and spent a month in France eating and drinking out way back to pre walk weight... We referred to this section of trip as our Corpulant Camino.

We've always tried to walk our caminos at a pace that suits us, and picked a length and time scale that suits our capabilities. We've also tried not to judge those that bus or skip sections, @JulieandPeter is right the Camino is very much an internal journey and you make it your own way. The only bit I object to is if you decided to "cheat" and hide that you are taking auto assist options. Not only is it not fair to pilgrims who slog it out on the way only to find someone has beaten them to an alburgue bed, it's unfair to the person who does it - in that they are cheating /lying to themselves.
 
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Ciao.
I still have to make the journey and not start with a particularly religious or adventure spirit ... it's simply an experience I want to do and live. Then if the trip is not the destination but the path you do ... who knows!
But if there were not all "comfort" to sleep, buy food and water, traced roads ... honestly ... who would make the journey of Santiago?
 
This past spring - also on the VdlP - I found myself needing to take a bus into Salamanca. Why is not important. On the bus I met a pilgrim on his third Camino. Other than our age, the only thing we had in common was our love of Spain and walking. He had lived half his life behind the Iron Curtain - I'm from the States.

Unsolicited he explained that he respects the rules and doesn't stay in albergues when he hadn't walked and of course would walk the last 100km into Santiago. Outside of that he took a bus when he needed or wanted and often stayed an extra few days to explore interesting cities (which there are many on the VdlP). And after a moment of reflection he offered - "It is my Camino and it is Freedom." I'll never forget the sparkle in his eyes as he said that.

Our path (VdlP) was the same but the origin of our respective journeys came from different places.

I try my best not to judge.
 
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Pilgrimage is a matter of conviction and commitment. There are pilgrimages all over the world, example Mecca and the Ganges, also Japan, and pilgrims travel there by various means. Some Pilgrimages are even older than the Camino de Santiago. The focus is on the destination not the means of travel. It's not about the "how" it's about the "why".

But the primary purpose of the Compostela seems to focus on the "how" rather than the "why". It's a record relying on an attestation that the applicant has actually walked at least from Sarria. All the Pilgrim Office can do is assume on the balance of probabilities this is correct. Very few pilgrims booked in the day I arrived but indeed there could be strong reasons to believe that at least 80% of those who emerged clutching a Compostela hadn't walked at all from Sarria. But who are we to judge the veracity of their claims or the reason for their walks?

De colores

Bogong
 
My wife and I are in our seventies, can't walk as far as some of the younger Pilgrims and we have planned taxis into our Caminos. Sometimes hostels aren't situated conveniently for us. However on C. Frances last year we always backtracked the next day to where we were collected the previous day so that we could truthfully say that we had walked the full 100 km. This year on C. Ingles and C. Fisterra we took taxis to avoid some of the route we didn't fancy doing. But we weren't asking for a Compostela.
 
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I'm trying to find the post with the word 'cheating' in it.
 
Why isn't it like a diploma?
 
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The cathedral in Fatima, (a far more important pilgrimsite than SdC historically/present), define everyone that visits within city borders a pilgrim.

A humble suggestion...?....never......a pilgrim is allways a pilgrim....catch 22.....every other definition is loaded with contradictions and subjective reasoning...
 
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Peter, I have a different view. You talk of a 'true pilgrim' shouldn't pass judgement. I think a true pilgrim has every right to pass jugement because by definition they are the real pilgrim. The opposite to true is false, and to follow your logic a false pilgrim. Sorry to learn about your circumstances but great to hear it all went well. Sure there are individual reasons why people take a taxi but there is a large group who do so for selfish reasons, reasons that are not bona fide, hence a false pilgrim. But hey, they are nevertheless pilgrims. A bit like false teeth.
 
It is both. No wind favors a ship without a 'destination' my friend. Good luck on your pending pilgrimage.
 
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It's hard to argue with your point of view but to me it's too simplistic. Sure, an individual knows himself better than anyone else (one hopes) but if taking transport for non bona fide reasons does impact on others as it did with me when I arrived after a 45 k walk to find the hostel full thanks to three people who took a cab and arriving before me (I had met them earlier and they were bored walking). There needs to be a moral compass and some ethical control otherwise the spirit of the Camino will be like the debris you find along the way.....polluted!
 
Sadly, I believe the only rule is that it is too late for rules.
The only rules are the ones each albergue sets for itself.
The huge wave of movies and books has made the Camino fashionable, and until it's no longer fashionable (which may be never), it will be busy as heck.

What is a true pilgrim?
It's really not for us to judge, is it?
If YOU feel YOU are a real pilgrim, then go and do your pilgrimage the way you see fit.
And if you find no room in the inn, well, that's just part of a modern day pilgrimage - if you can't deal with that, you might consider a different route or a different destination.
 
Another Camino lesson easily (or not so) applied to life. We can never know the circumstances of anyone else's actions. So to judge based upon our own perception of what is going on is well.....judging based upon something we know nothing of.
 
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On a practical operational level it's very easy to define what is a REAL pilgrim. Its just that on this forum it interferes with the sensibilities of many so we keep it to 'only you can decide'. That's safe isn't it? In fact you need not go beyond the codex written way back in the 12 th century to get a feel of what the elements of a real modern pilgrim is. Ultimately it really boils down to how people behave en route. That is the issue for me. BTW it's only natural to judge. It would not be human to do otherwise and more importantly you would not be true to yourself if you thought otherwise. We all judge.....it's the criteria by which we do it that's important. Having said that I judge and have every right to do so. If one does not agree with me, then I'm happy to hear an alternative. That helps me grow as a person.
 
Giopomerol said:
... it's very easy to define what is a REAL pilgrim. ....
Click to expand...

Really? Please share the secret! After >18 years and >15 000 km on pilgrim paths I am still not sure that I know what a "real pilgrim" is ... Buen Camino, SY
 
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SYates said:
Really? Please share the secret! After >18 years and >15 000 km on pilgrim paths I am still not sure that I know what a "real pilgrim" is ... Buen Camino, SY
Click to expand...

I often think that the more you walk the more questions pop up...
Sometimes I think that the only certainty in life is that nothing is certain....
 
SYates said:
Really? Please share the secret! After >18 years and >15 000 km on pilgrim paths I am still not sure that I know what a "real pilgrim" is ... Buen Camino, SY
Click to expand...
Hint One: destination that has a specific meaning to you
hint Two: purpose
Hint three: a form of actualisation along the way I.e the process of getting there has had an impact
Hint four: your behavior along the way
Hint five: the word pilgrim is not a homogenous term. There are many forms of pilgrims ....from religious to spiritual to political (those walking to a place that has political meaning). These are real pilgrims.

BTW I am not sure what your intention is by ”do share your secret' but I assume it is a honorable statement. It is not a secret...look it up there are plenty of dictionaries out there that will enlighten anyone who wishes it. It doesn't matter how much you have walked what matters is how smart you walk,
 
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@Giopomerol

I am looking forward to your ?changed? insights after you have actually walked a Camino/walked your first pilgrimage. So far your forum profile states "Camino(s) past & future: None" I am sure things will become clearer to you after you have followed the foot steps of all those thousands and thousands of pilgrims that went before you. Buen Camino de la Vida, SY
 
SYates said:
After >18 years and >15 000 km on pilgrim paths I am still not sure that I know what a "real pilgrim" is.
Click to expand...
Perhaps it's easier to define what a "real pilgrimage" is. Over the last 30 years or so, it seems to me, the idea has risen that it encompasses the guarantee of a bed, and a really cheap bed to boot, at the end of one's day of walking, and without prior arrangements. It's a guarantee that is mainly expected on the caminos in Spain and Portugal, for obvious reasons, and most likely the reason that we don't see a significant amount of long distance foot pilgrims elsewhere, for example to the "real" big contemporary pilgrimage sites in Lourdes, Fatima, Medjugorje etc etc. I also have the impression that the typical camino pilgrims rarely participates in local pilgrimages although these seem to gain more popularity, at least as far as I know (in some parts of Europe outside Spain and Portugal). These are organized group events of fairly short duration but can be physically quite demanding.

That idea of a guaranteed cheap camino bed is currently being challenged, due to the increasing number of people on the caminos in Spain and Portugal and their changing habits.
 
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I have purposely left out the number of pilgrimages I have done for the simple reason I prefer to be judged by not what I have done but what I say. It's a bit like a professional hiding behind their qualifications. What matters to me are their competencies not their qualifications. I value that more. But that is my personal preference. Also, what would stop me from lying about how many Pilgrimages I write down and how many I intend to do when I may not have any intentions? Profiles as you and I sadly know can be very false in the world of cyber. Take them with a pinch of salt.
 
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I developed a definition for what I needed to do in order to be a Pilgrim. Among other bits and pieces, my definition incorporated traditional religious elements, as well as personal behavioral attitudes toward others as my pilgrimage went forward.

The key here is not how others walked their Camino, or what they did; it was about how true to my definition did I acquit myself. If I saw behavior that made me cringe -- and cringe-worthy events there were, to be sure -- my judging of such behavior would be along the lines of, "God, please help me be patient and kind and an example to others, and let me be sensitive to the way I act around other pilgrims." Well, a lot of the time I tried to uphold that standard, and other times I would quitely fume. Except, shamefully, once.

I live in farming country, where orchardists (apples, apricots, peaches, pears, and cherries) and vineyard farmers work hard to make a living. Their produce is their hard won livelihood. One early afternoon as Caleb and I were walking with many other pilgrims through vineyards, a couple of other walkers in front of us suddenly bolted 30 yards into the vineyard, cut off several bunches of grapes, then ran back onto the Camino laughing and giggling. Sad to say that I lost my temper, thinking of my farmer friends back home.

I walked up beside them and asked if they spoke English. When they said 'yes', I let them know that what they did was wrong, that stealing the grapes was taking money out of the pocket of the farmer, and that doing so was the same thing as stealing. There was no yelling, just too much adrenaline on my part, and not thinking at all of kindness or of using the situation as a calm teaching moment. Ouch.

Caleb took my arm and guided me away, and I must've increased my pace to twice that of what we had been doing just so that I could calm myself down a bit. It didn't take me long to regret my outburst. Later, since we were ahead of the couple, I decided to stop at a small village bar to have a late lunch and to wait for them to catch up so that I could apologize to them. After an hour, I still didn't see them, so we pressed on.

Out of all that happened during our journey, that was my most regrettable. And not being able to apologize and to somehow make things right just amplified my bad behavior to me. Definitely a hard lesson, and one I hope not to forget anytime in the future.

So, what is a pilgrim? I'm sure an agreed upon set of standards could be developed. Most importantly to me, however, is whether or not I am being true to how I believe a pilgrim should behave.
 
C clearly said:
Yes, there are many hints to what constitutes a pilgrim, but they all lead to matters of subjective interpretation, which is why there are debates about it. These are not practical operational criteria.
Click to expand...
Life is not a cookbook that you follow step by step. In this instance it's about having a working framework that's operational. I was asked my 'secret' as it was put and obliged an answer. Why is it that people find it necessary to feel answers to everything have to be concrete? When in fact it's sand?
 
C clearly said:
I am quite confused. Don't you mean the opposite? Your profile says "None" for caminos done. Is that true, or not?
Click to expand...
Ok for the record I have done five pilgrimages three of those are Camino Française as I only live within driving distance to SJPdP and minutes from the Spanish boarder. Hope that clarifies. Unless, there is a rule stating you must fill out your profile, then I opt out, for reasons I have stated. Hope this clarifies and sorry I was not clear in the post but I am not sure how more clear I can be.
 
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Peregrinus in the original, linguistic sense means "free non-Roman citizen that walks/travels over the fields" that definition has always been good enough for me. Anything more is between me ans God and with this I am out of this discussion. BC SY
 
SYates said:
Peregrinus in the original, linguistic sense means "free non-Roman citizen that walks/travels over the fields" that definition has always been good enough for me. Anything more is between me ans God and with this I am out of this discussion. BC SY
Click to expand...
You are a real pilgrim with a heart that respects the genuine meaning of pilgrimage. I wish everyone shared your attributes. I try too.
 
Camino Way markers in Bronze
The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
SYates said:
As are the 300 000 pilgrims that have arrived so far this year in Santiago. BC SY
Click to expand...
Looks like we are going to disagree on this point. 300,000 have arrived most but not all of whom are pilgrims. I have met a few who do not want to be known as pilgrims but the hypocracy is pushed aside when getting their Compostela. I wish your romantic view was real but the reality sadly gets in the way.
 
Giopomerol said:
Why is it that people find it necessary to feel answers to everything have to be concrete?
Click to expand...
I agree with this question, and I don't in fact expect everything to be concrete. I misunderstood your reference to "practical operational level" as meaning something more concrete, which I agree is not appropriate here. You have clarified that, so we are on the same page.

I respect the wish of those who like to say little or nothing on their profiles. Since you could have just left the "Past and planned caminos" blank, I assumed that what you entered was fact, not that it matters much.
 
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SYates said:
Really? Please share the secret! After >18 years and >15 000 km on pilgrim paths I am still not sure that I know what a "real pilgrim" is ... Buen Camino, SY
Click to expand...

I feel I am a real pilgrim I do not care how others judge me nor do I have any idea what a 'real pilgrim' is. I just know I am one
Whatever that is
 
What I liked best during the camino was not that questions like this finally got answered, but that the questions themselves slowly faded away. "Ultreïa e suseia" might be the same sort of peptalk as "if you meet the Buddha, kill him". Don't focus on silly titles, go further and higher.
 
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