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In my opinion, the three biggest reasons are that SJPdP gets the most “press,” that most people start there, and that the facilities are the to support that. And each of these reasons tends to increase the others in a circular fashion.I think that there are a number of reasons for the place that SJPP has gained in contemporary Camino walking. In no particular order:
There are probably more reasons of this sort. I would not look too far into the past when searching for plausible explanations.
- [nice list skipped]
Yes, thank you. I have actually read it, many years ago, though I struggled with the Latin and ended up reading a translation in parallel. I was just being a little (I thought) humorous. Maybe I should have used some smileys? I was simply playing on the idea of the Camino starting from home. Parthenay is where, as I am sure you know, the writer lived. The whole codex is a significant work, of course, of which the route description is quite a small part. Paizay le Sec is where I used to live, and could well have been used as a stop by pilgrims, it's old enough and in a suitable place, but despite the Mayor being convinced of this, the only proof he has is that it's where I started on my first Camino. Saint Savin, 5 km from my current home, has definite Camino links. An eastern variant of the Tours route, to be precise. There is a guide available to download from the Confraternity of Saint James, which I do know something about, as I actually collated rather a lot of information from various pilgrim associations in order to write it. Probably best to cycle it as there isn't much infrastructure.I don't understand. Maybe we are talking about different paths?
I was referring to the path(s) or way(s) as they are described in Book V of the Codex Calixtinus, commonly known nowadays as the Pilgrim's Guide, and the blueprint for today's Camino Francés. That's what Elias Valiñas and the Camino pioneers from the Paris association and the Estella association and other early walkers in the 1960s-1980s used as their guiding line. In this 12th century document, various towns in France are mentioned, also Geneva, and these are mostly places with important relics of various saints and should be visited for this reason, but there is no detailed description for travelling to or through these places.
The detailed description of a way to Santiago with a long list of towns, villages and a few 'hospitals' (albergues) covers only what we know today as the Camino Francés, with its two initial "arms", known today as Camino Aragonés and Camino Navarro, although the latter name is rarely used and not widely known. In the medieval document, this detailed description starts with the names of villages/towns in the northern foothills/parts of the western end of the Pyrenees, i.e. in the wider SJPP and Somport areas.
BTW, there are easily accessible copies of the original text in Latin and of various translations into French, Spanish and English on the web. It's best to read the Latin version because of the sometimes liberal translation of geographical names. One English translation for example uses "Camino de Santiago" which is of course an expression that did not exist in this sense in the Middle Ages! But all this has already been mentioned earlier in the thread ...
Certainly people's personal Caminos can start in these spots. But this post isn't asking about people's personal Caminos but rather the shared route: the Camino Frances (as distinguished from the Camino Portugues, the Via de la Plata, the Camino Primitivo, and all the other Camino routes). I'm not sure why you suggest the Camino Frances might start in Canterbury.I'll put my oar in here and say not all that much detail, as far as the route goes. Anyway, it starts in Antigny in the Vienne. Must do, that's where I live. Or possibly Paizay le sec, where I used to live. Or Canterbury, because why not? Or Parthenay.
Because, although it's a more recent pilgrimage there is absolutely no reason why it couldn't, and I was trying to make the point that this discussion hasn't got a point....That's where the community of walkers has decided it starts so that's the way it is. Plus there was rather a good book written using the Thomas à Beckett pilgrimage as its framework. So, having gone even further off topic I will leave you all withCertainly people's personal Caminos can start in these spots. But this post isn't asking about people's personal Caminos but rather the shared route: the Camino Frances (as distinguished from the Camino Portugues, the Via de la Plata, the Camino Primitivo, and all the other Camino routes). I'm not sure why you suggest the Camino Frances might start in Canterbury.
Thank you, @David Tallan, I think that we have a thread about this topic elsewhere. It is the epic The Camino does NOT start in SJPdP - discuss thread, started by @Tincatinker in September 2019, 439 posts so far, and still open for discussion - yeahCertainly people's personal Caminos can start in these spots.
And four lines later it reads:That hem hath holpen whan that they were seeke."
I think a Camino bus tour group. After all, they were all riding. They had a tour operator and guide who was organizing things, even ways for them to amuse themselves en route, if I recall correctly.And four lines later it reads:
At nyght was come into that hostelryeWel nyne and twenty in a compaignye
Would that be the late medieval version of a Camino family or of a Camino bus tour group?
Mediaeval equivalent of a bike pilgrims Camino family.I think a Camino bus tour group. After all, they were all riding. They had a tour operator and guide who was organizing things, even ways for them to amuse themselves en route, if I recall correctly.
I would totally agree with you except that I seem to recall that the "leader" wasn't just one of the pilgrims who happened to meet up, but rather "our host" who was professionally employed in the tourism and hospitality industry, and so more like a tour operator.Mediaeval equivalent of a bike pilgrims Camino family.
Those ad hoc companies formed at certain crossroads where pilgrims from multiple towns an villages would congregate, for geographical and infrastructural necessaries -- bridges in particular.
That the most experienced pilgrim in a Camino family should emerge as a guide and leader and helper is quite natural -- even in similar circumstance into this 21st Century.
Decided to check in my copy of the Riverside Chaucer -- really should re-read it.I would totally agree with you except that I seem to recall that the "leader" wasn't just one of the pilgrims who happened to meet up, but rather "our host" who was professionally employed in the tourism and hospitality industry, and so more like a tour operator.
If I am misremembering, I withdraw this exception.
It does NOT but it is a popular starting point.Okay, so my title is intentionally a little provocative but the question is a serious one.
Why does the Camino Frances begin in SJPP?
The walking trail that was created, waymarked and promoted as the "pilgrimage road to Santiago" in the latter half of the 20th century and that is commonly known as the Camino Francés has its starting point in SJPP nowadays. Very obviously, it does not mean that everybody and their dog have to start there for it to be a meaningful experience!It does NOT but it is a popular starting point.
A very long time, I fear. The new road up the Vallee D'Aspe seems to have cut through a lot of the engineering work of the railway line so it would mean rebuilding bridges, embankments etc etc at astronomic cost.As to the Oloron to Canfranc train line, there is an ongoing project and plan to reopen it -- that's years in the future
That's actually not quite true -- they were rare, but some local roads in the environs of some minor pilgrimage destinations came into existence because of those pilgrimages.Obviously, routes specially intended for pilgrims never existed in the Middle Ages, at least not in France.
No such guarantees on half of my 1994 ; a good portion of my 2005 ; and significantly more than half of my 2019 - 2021 - 2022-23.From 1970 onwards, the St. James itineraries inspired by the 12th century manuscript (dubbed "Pilgrim's Guide") and mapped out on the basis of itineraries suggested by historians were implemented in the form of footpaths. The routes they follow, a guarantee of convenience and security, are a compromise between history and present-day reality. It is a question of avoiding tarmac roads, cars and private property, of taking into account availability of accommodation and the esthetic interest of places along the way.
This is actually a good point: a guarantee of convenience and security. Isn't it a bit of an illusion when we think of walking the Camino Francés as walking into the big unknown, where the universe unfolds as it should, where we don't know where we put our head tonight? We are walking in a populated cultural landscape, with lists of albergues, satellite-guided maps, instant online access to spot-on information and either the physical capabilities to walk on a few more kilometres or the security of a credit card or a handful of euros that will guarantee a bus trip or a taxi trip to our bed for the night.
I'm very much inclined to agree with this as far as the Frances is concerned. Not so much twenty years ago on the Norte with a donkey. Populated certainly, culture and beauty, plenty of tiny tiendas but no lists, very little waymarking, no useable map and you try taking a donkey on a bus! That said, it still wasn't the third world, and not many people refused a corner of a field or garden and a bucket of water. The donkey and I duly arrived, though she didn't get a Compostela.https://www.chemins-compostelle.com/ has some quite good information for those who are interested in knowing what is established old myth or modern myth and what reflects reality. A few more quotes:
This is actually a good point: a guarantee of convenience and security. Isn't it a bit of an illusion when we think of walking the Camino Francés as walking into the big unknown, where the universe unfolds as it should, where we don't know where we put our head tonight? We are walking in a populated cultural landscape, with lists of albergues, satellite-guided maps, instant online access to spot-on information and either the physical capabilities to walk on a few more kilometres or the security of a credit card or a handful of euros that will guarantee a bus trip or a taxi trip to our bed for the night.
- The idea of the 4 Ways to Compostela, each one with its specific departure point (Paris/Tours, Le Puy, Vezelay, Arles), is a purely modern idea.
- The development of rambling (walking in nature for leisure, hiking leisurely) as a popular activity from the 1950's onwards inspired the idea of re-establishing the mediaeval tradition. In a world dominated by cars, the creation of footpaths enabled ramblers' itineraries to be made safe.
- From 1970 onwards, the St. James itineraries inspired by the 12th century manuscript (dubbed "Pilgrim's Guide") and mapped out on the basis of itineraries suggested by historians were implemented in the form of footpaths. The routes they follow, a guarantee of convenience and security, are a compromise between history and present-day reality. It is a question of avoiding tarmac roads, cars and private property, of taking into account availability of accommodation and the esthetic interest of places along the way.
I wholeheartedly agree.This is actually a good point: a guarantee of convenience and security. Isn't it a bit of an illusion when we think of walking the Camino Francés as walking into the big unknown, where the universe unfolds as it should, where we don't know where we put our head tonight? We are walking in a populated cultural landscape, with lists of albergues, satellite-guided maps, instant online access to spot-on information and either the physical capabilities to walk on a few more kilometres or the security of a credit card or a handful of euros that will guarantee a bus trip or a taxi trip to our bed for the night.
Hear hear!Dare I suggest that if you were to walk out of your front door with no preparation at all, other than a determination to get from point a to point b on foot, you would eventually get to point b?
And yet, large numbers still insist that they can't start walking unless they know where they will sleep that night.Isn't it a bit of an illusion when we think of walking the Camino Francés as walking into the big unknown, where the universe unfolds as it should, where we don't know where we put our head tonight? We are walking in a populated cultural landscape, with lists of albergues, satellite-guided maps, instant online access to spot-on information and either the physical capabilities to walk on a few more kilometres or the security of a credit card or a handful of euros that will guarantee a bus trip or a taxi trip to our bed for the night.
That would have been a substantial day. I can find a walking route between the two on OSM that looks like about 36 km, with just over 2000 m of climb and 1400 m of descent. Depending on how you interpret Naismith's rule, that would be the flat equivalent of well over 50 km.FWIW, Codex Calixtinus names Saint-Michel (a village close to Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port) as the starting point of its Pyrenean stage, not SJPP nor Saint-Jean-le-Vieux ; and to Viscarret rather than Roncesvalles.
Bear in mind that chapter II of book V of the Codex Calixtinus, nowadays known as "Pilgrim Guide", divides the distance of 800 km from the Pyrenees to the Apostle into 13 dietae itineris sancti Jacobi which gives us an average of 60 km daily. However, these "stages" are of uneven length.That would have been a substantial day. I can find a walking route between the two on OSM that looks like about 36 km, with just over 2000 m of climb and 1400 m of descent. Depending on how you interpret Naismith's rule, that would be the flat equivalent of well over 50 km.
I have heard it suggested that the writer assumed his audience would be travelling on horseback, he frequently mentions horses e.g. how they were conveyed by ferries, but 60 km a day on bad roads would still be a long stretch for a horse.Book V was not used as a pilgrim guidebook and it was not written with people "walking every step of the way" in mind.
They likely changed horses regularly -- though some well-trained travel horses could (and even more rarely can) do very long distances indeed.I have heard it suggested that the writer assumed his audience would be travelling on horseback, he frequently mentions horses e.g. how they were conveyed by ferries, but 60 km a day on bad roads would still be a long stretch for a horse.
I agree. Now we are focused on what to eat, where to sleep... but the Book V of Codex Calixtinus were more focused on where to pray, where to find relics, sanctuaries...Book V was not used as a pilgrim guidebook and it was not written with people "walking every step of the way" in mind.
That was my understanding as well, having read it. They clearly were using horses for at least some of the stages.I have heard it suggested that the writer assumed his audience would be travelling on horseback, he frequently mentions horses e.g. how they were conveyed by ferries, but 60 km a day on bad roads would still be a long stretch for a horse.
As already mentioned, the so called "Pilgrim Guide" was not widely known at the time it was written and neither was it widely known in the next few centuries
I am now imagining that the retinue would have been run like a military operation:If it was indeed meant for aristocracy and high-level clergy to entice them to come to Santiago, then I don't think that they raced along at neck-breaking speed on their horses because for all I know they travelled with a large retinue and goods and supplies of all sorts etc etc.
Yes.I am now imagining that the retinue would have been run like a military operation:
The only significant details missing in your spot on suppositions are the large canopy tents and the furniture carried along in case of no suitably spacious accommodations locally.I am now imagining that the retinue would have been run like a military operation:
a. a scouting party of perhaps one or two trusted lieutenants sent a couple of days ahead seeking out the best route and accommodation, with riders or runners going back and forth with details of the route discovered
b. an advance party run by a major domo sent forward to the chosen accommodation to prepare rooms and obtain food, wine, beer, and other supplies for the main party
c. the main body of the group arriving to find all the comforts of home set up, food prepared etc
d. and perhaps a rear party that packs everything up, auctions off any surplus to the locals, and prepares to move forward as the next advance party.
I can imagine the composition of the main body including skilled musicians and other entertainers, depending on the wealth and status of the pilgrim.
And consider how we can achieve all of this today with a smartphone and a little trust in the local accommodation and culinary establishments.
Been looking at the already mentioned Chemins de Compostelle book a bit more.As already mentioned, the so called "Pilgrim Guide" was not widely known at the time it was written and neither was it widely known in the next few centuries, then it became completely forgotten for hundreds of years and it was only about eighty years ago when it was translated from Latin into a modern language for the first time, namely into French, that it became more widely known to scholars and interested amateurs.
Hard to know if any pilgrims didn't consult copies of it in libraries for that purpose. That only one full copy exists doesn't mean that others didn't -- indeed some incomplete ones do survive.In 2023, thanks to more extensive and more accurate research, we know that it never served as a guide for pilgrims!
??? It's just some information.Apologies to everyone else for even answering. I usually let this kind of petty stuff roll off my back and don't bother to react.
I trust @Kathar1na. I have yet to find her posts contain anything less than validated content.Hard to know if any pilgrims didn't consult copies of it in libraries for that purpose. That only one full copy exists doesn't mean that others didn't -- indeed some incomplete ones do survive.
But people did carry copied itineraries as guides, the most popular one seeming to have been a 12th Century collection of pilgrims songs with an appendix giving an itinerary of the route from Paris to Santiago (via Bayonne > Vitoria > Burgos) -- though carrying this volume obviously became more common as copying became more industrialised, especially after the invention of printing. By the late 16th and the 17th Centuries it was commonly carried in printed form as a booklet by less wealthy pilgrims, Parisian ones anyway.
The author of that 1890 preface does state that, whilst travel guide books had become very popular by the 17th Century (tourism as such being an invention of the 16th), no guide books as such for the Way of Saint James existed in the early 18th Century period of the Camino memoir it was published for, and he notes that the itinerary given in that memoir is far more detailed than any other itinerary, mediaeval or modern, that he had been able to consult.
But people did carry itineraries as guides, much like most pre-smartphone pilgrims in the late 20th Century would carry photocopied itineraries to help along the way, devise plans for the day's hiking target and look for where to sleep.
??? It's just some information.
Thank you, @Kirkie. I do make mistakes and I have no problems with it being pointed out to me. I am more than happy to go back to a comment, edit it and correct it.I trust @Kathar1na. I have yet to find her posts contain anything less than validated content.
As indeed we have. The information about earlier pilgrimages and guides has been entertaining and illuminating and we thank everyone who has contributed but it is time to close the thread.But we've moved far away from SJPP now
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