What to do about a proud tagger (a person who scrawls graffiti)

[Deleted member 73526]

I'm one of the moderators of a camino-related, online, group. A member of the group has uploaded a video of his camino. It requires moderator approval before it is published for everyone in the group to view.
When I watched the video, I discovered that this person and his friends wrote their names and a short message in black marker pen on a stone shell. I recognize this shell - While it's not a historic monument, it makes an otherwise unlovely spot somewhat special. I took a photograph of it a couple of years ago before it had any graffiti on it. I'm horrified that a person within my "circle" thinks that it's appropriate to deface things along the way. He appears to be proud of this vandalism, since it appears at the start and end of the video.
How do you think I should handle this? I could disallow his post and let him know why. I could approve the video and let other members of the group react. I could remove him from the group...
Any thoughts?

 

[Vacajoe]

If you post it, you are tacitly endorsing the behavior - your group has a moderator for a reason, no? I would inform the author that vandalism is not supported by your forum and offer to post the video once that portion is removed from their submission.

 

[MichaelB10398]

I agree with Vacajoe; good solution. There are few things I hate worse than walking the Camino and seeing graffiti - do those individuals really think that others enjoy seeing their scribblings rather than just the natural beauty of nature or clean signs?

 

[Glenshiro]

If you post it, you are tacitly endorsing the behavior

I agree with Vacajoe.
This person has betrayed the hospitality of his hosts, the people of Spain, by defacing their property. Not only would I decline to host his video, I would remove him from the group and publicise your reason for doing so. Such behaviour needs calling out.

 

[Deleted member 73526]

Thanks for your advice. I am leaning toward deleting the video with a private explanation. I don't feel like expelling the member from the group or calling this out in public, but I'll see how the other moderators feel.

(I like the suggestion that we could ask him to delete the image from the video - but I would rather have him erase the graffiti from the stone).

 

[Deleted member 67185]

I'm one of the moderators of a camino-related, online, group. A member of the group has uploaded a video of his camino. It requires moderator approval before it is published for everyone in the group to view.
When I watched the video, I discovered that this person and his friends wrote their names and a short message in black marker pen on a stone shell. I recognize this shell - While it's not a historic monument, it makes an otherwise unlovely spot bit special. I took a photograph of it a couple of years ago before it had any graffiti on it. I'm horrified that a person within my "circle" thinks that it's appropriate to deface things along the way. He appears to be proud of this vandalism, since it appears at the start and end of the video.
How do you think I should handle this? I could disallow his post and let him know why. I could approve the video and let other members of the group react. I could remove him from the group...
Any thoughts?

It seems that your group member is attempting to do another round of graffiti-vandalism; the first was defacing something on the Camino, the second by defacing and -- in effect -- vandalizing and contaminating your forum/group. S/he is attempting to leave his/her bad behavior as a selfishly inspired "look at me" mark on the forum.

I carefully read and re-read your post to see if there was something I was missing which is creating the dilemma as to you allowing the video to be posted or not. You have the appropriate -- to me -- answer: I would absolutely refuse to post the video. I would also -- without posting the name of the group member -- post a message as a moderator which acknowledged that the video was received and why it was not allowed to be posted. Write about how upsetting it is to view this type of vandalism. Then allow other members react. I would NOT allow the vandal to post, especially if s/he tries to rationalize or defend their behavior.

If your forum/group has a Terms of Use and/or rules of conduct about posting things which are potentially harmful or demonstrates poor conduct, and I would use a broad interpretation on what this means, I would temporarily revoke posting privileges for quite a while (4 to 6 months).

You have the opportunity to help reinforce what is normal and expected and socially accepted behavior for those of us who walk Camino; this becomes even more important if the vandal was a foreign visitor to the country(s) in question.

I can understand that you might have discomfiture with the notion of censoring, but that is what having a moderated group is all about --- having a place where individuals with common interests can gather and share within the bounds of expected and acceptable behavior. Vandalism is neither expected or acceptable behavior.

 

[Deleted member 67185]

Thanks for your advice. I am leaning toward deleting the video with a private explanation. I don't feel like expelling the member from the group or calling this out in public, but I'll see how the other moderators feel.

(I like the suggestion that we could ask him to delete the image from the video - but I would rather have him erase the graffiti from the stone).

So the video has already been posted and likely viewed, but you are going to silently delete it with a private explanation? I find that a very anemic course of action, and a terrible waste of a teaching moment for not only the vandal, but for the rest of your group as well.

What is ironic to me is that, based on your response above, more focus on the vandal's actions is occurring on this Forum, than will be occurring on the Group you are helping to Moderate.

 

[Deleted member 73526]

So the video has already been posted and likely viewed, but you are going to silently delete it with a private explanation? I find that a very anemic course of action, and a terrible waste of a teaching moment for not only the vandal, but for the rest of your group as well.

The video has not been publicly posted. It is awaiting moderator approval.

What is ironic to me is that, based on your response above, more focus on the vandal's actions is occurring on this Forum, than will be occurring on the Group you are helping to Moderate.

I've started a discussion with the other moderators, so the issue will get attention and we will decide what to do. I'm reluctant to name and shame the person who did this stupid thing. The other moderators might feel differently or they might come up with a better way to raise the issue. I'm grateful for the input from people here, so I don't regret sharing this dilemma with you all.

 

[Kiwi-family]

While I do not condone vandalism and would agree with the first poster’s suggestion to allow the video after the graffiti had been removed, I would not be so harsh in my treatment of the individual. I wouldn’t be banning him/her, but allowing the opportunity for some remorse and change of behaviour. Of course you may find he/she chooses to leave the group, but then again, maybe he/she just never thought about it being undesirable behaviour.

 

[Former member 49149]

I'm one of the moderators of a camino-related, online, group. A member of the group has uploaded a video of his camino. It requires moderator approval before it is published for everyone in the group to view.
When I watched the video, I discovered that this person and his friends wrote their names and a short message in black marker pen on a stone shell. I recognize this shell - While it's not a historic monument, it makes an otherwise unlovely spot somewhat special. I took a photograph of it a couple of years ago before it had any graffiti on it. I'm horrified that a person within my "circle" thinks that it's appropriate to deface things along the way. He appears to be proud of this vandalism, since it appears at the start and end of the video.
How do you think I should handle this? I could disallow his post and let him know why. I could approve the video and let other members of the group react. I could remove him from the group...
Any thoughts?

I like vacajoe's idea.

 

[RJM]

I would almost want the video posted and perhaps an explanation from the vandal as to why he and his cohorts think their behavior was acceptable, appropriate and I guess just plain "why" did you do it? Do they find it fun? Attractive? Funny? Some kind of twisted expression of art?
and why would an adult (I am assuming) find it so?

 

[Deleted member 67185]

The video has not been publicly posted. It is awaiting moderator approval.


I've started a discussion with the other moderators, so the issue will get attention and we will decide what to do. I'm reluctant to name and shame the person who did this stupid thing. The other moderators might feel differently or they might come up with a better way to raise the issue. I'm grateful for the input from people here, so I don't regret sharing this dilemma with you all.

I made it a point to state that the name should NOT be used. However, the BEHAVIOR of the individual should definitely face public shaming.

 

[David]

The person is obviously not an adult, even if he is housed in an adult body. One answer is to just shoot him in the head - problem solved, but that is terribly messy and generally tends to be frowned upon.

I would not allow the video to be shown, not at all - I might tell the person that unless he removes the graffiti completely I would pass the video on to the police .... as you can see, I loathe mindless graffitti!! .

On a less extreme response - Have you actually contacted him? told him how you feel? told him how others would feel? If so, what was his response? As, from there you will most likely have a more clear understanding.

What is clear is that the video should be returned to him and his actions monitored closely in the future.

Let us know.

 

[JohnMcM]

I'm one of the moderators of a camino-related, online, group. A member of the group has uploaded a video of his camino. It requires moderator approval before it is published for everyone in the group to view.
When I watched the video, I discovered that this person and his friends wrote their names and a short message in black marker pen on a stone shell. I recognize this shell - While it's not a historic monument, it makes an otherwise unlovely spot somewhat special. I took a photograph of it a couple of years ago before it had any graffiti on it. I'm horrified that a person within my "circle" thinks that it's appropriate to deface things along the way. He appears to be proud of this vandalism, since it appears at the start and end of the video.
How do you think I should handle this? I could disallow his post and let him know why. I could approve the video and let other members of the group react. I could remove him from the group...
Any thoughts?

Well,
You could tie him to a tree, flog him and pour salt water into his wounds. Then as he starts to recover from said flaying, place sharp needles into his eyes, then, when he recovers from that you could scrape the skin from the soles of his feet and make him walk over red hot coals.

On the other hand, you could ask him to think about the impact of his actions upon his hosts, those that will follow him and how he will feel about himself in the future. Then, invite him (and his friends?) to return, clean up his/their momentos of their visit, apologise to their hosts and then educate those that will follow in their footsteps.

Buen (finding-forgiveness) Camino

 

[Rebekah Scott]

pilgrims occasionally use the doorway of my bodega and the space outside my back gate for a toilet. I get to clean up their s---. What these "filmmakers" did is pretty much the same thing. I hope you tell him that. The people who live on the camino do not find pilgrim leavings charming or cute. The jerks who made the film are long gone, but their scrawls are still here, and they're still ugly.
And now they want us to admire their film.

 

[RJM]

Well,
You could tie him to a tree, flog him and pour salt water into his wounds. Then as he starts to recover from said flaying, place sharp needles into his eyes, then, when he recovers from that you could scrape the skin from the soles of his feet and make him walk over red hot coals.

On the other hand, you could ask him to think about the impact of his actions upon his hosts, those that will follow him and how he will feel about himself in the future. Then, invite him (and his friends?) to return, clean up his/their momentos of their visit, apologise to their hosts and then educate those that will follow in their footsteps.

Buen (finding-forgiveness) Camino

I was thinking something along the lines of option number 3.
Prosecution, and say a fine of about 200-500 euros.
Forgiveness and a life lesson through apology and repairing what was damaged is great when practical, but the old hit them in the pocketbook usually has more impact. Gotta make it hurt, and nothing hurts quite as much as forking over money.

 

[Mugatu]

I'm one of the moderators of a camino-related, online, group. A member of the group has uploaded a video of his camino. It requires moderator approval before it is published for everyone in the group to view.
When I watched the video, I discovered that this person and his friends wrote their names and a short message in black marker pen on a stone shell. I recognize this shell - While it's not a historic monument, it makes an otherwise unlovely spot somewhat special. I took a photograph of it a couple of years ago before it had any graffiti on it. I'm horrified that a person within my "circle" thinks that it's appropriate to deface things along the way. He appears to be proud of this vandalism, since it appears at the start and end of the video.
How do you think I should handle this? I could disallow his post and let him know why. I could approve the video and let other members of the group react. I could remove him from the group...
Any thoughts?

Stuff like this really agrivates me, I’m a firm believer “in leave no trace” and even more so on “the freedom to experience your hike/journey in the manner you see fit; as long as your actions don’t infringe on another individuals same respective freedoms”

Wooosaaaah... I need to go to my happy place

Option one: allow them to post it, so that there can be some dialogue on the subject in the hopes insight may be shed on their part based on others perspectives and how it affects them; I’d preface this with... you may get flamed upon

Option two: shut the door on their request, and have no potential for a constructive outcome

 

[RJM]

Stuff like this really agrivates me, I’m a firm believer “in leave no trace” and even more so on “the freedom to experience your hike/journey in the manner you see fit; as long as your actions don’t infringe on another individuals same respective freedoms”

Wooosaaaah... I need to go to my happy place

Option one: allow them to post it, so that there can be some dialogue on the subject in the hopes insight may be shed on their part based on others perspectives and how it affects them; I’d preface this with... you may get flamed upon

Option two: shut the door on their request, and have no potential for a constructive outcome

I like option one.
Like I commented earlier, I want to know why one chooses to damage someone else's, or public property with graffiti.
Even though I know (I hope) no forum members have done damage along the Camino in this fashion, it is still a subject that cannot be over discussed. Seeing the graffiti damage (and the trash/garbage) along the Camino track increase in just a few years is quite sad and disturbing. Whenever I see it I curse the guilty party and apologize to Spain for a fellow Camino walker's (not pilgrim) disrespectful actions.
Is there anyone reading this thread that has done graffiti on the Camino? If so, why?

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Rather than deleting the sections where the tagging takes place how about saying that the video will only be posted if something is edited into the video after those spots saying that what was done was stupid and apologized for.

 

[Rhun Leeding]

The sheer volume of graffiti on the camino was one of the few things that really grated with me on my first Camino Frances. In truth, I remember very little from the Ingles.

I remember that a girl called Noemie (a spelling that stuck in my mind for all the wrong reasons) was writing her name in all sorts of spots. The little heart shape over the i was not something to love.

Personally, I'd ditch the video and use your moderator role to bounce that individual from the group. Maybe post the why a few hours before they are removed, so the individual can understand why.

 

[sunwanderer]

... the opportunity for some remorse and change of behaviour...

And if there is no remorse or change of behavior?

... saying that what was done was stupid and apologized for ...

Saying it was stupid and apologizing are just words - I've seen many times where immature youngsters then go and brag to their friends about how they had apologized, and how the apology pulled one over on you. And then they just go and commit the same acts again.

I guess I've spent too much time with misbehaving youngsters to believe that telling them they did a bad thing will suddenly change their behavior. The way I see it, it's not a lack of intelligence or training or experience. People think: just put up a sign and tell everyone, in multiple languages, and everyone will change. Instead, I believe it's a problem with attitude: entitlement and privilege. For the most part, these people have been brought up in middle class environments, and they already know the difference between right and wrong.

When someone is coming from a position of entitlement and privilege, your feelings, the environment, or s---ing in someone's back yard doesn't matter.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Saying it was stupid and apologizing are just words - I've seen many times where immature youngsters then go and brag to their friends about how they had apologized, and how the apology pulled one over on you. And then they just go and commit the same acts again.

Maybe they will after the public apology but then they would be likely to do it with most other options here that don't involve legal authorities. Meanwhile others viewing the video may see that it is not something that should be done.

I don't know the tagger or the thoughts of the site's members or moderators. It is just a suggestion for the ones that have to make a decision to consider.

 

[Deleted member 73526]

Conclusion - After speaking with the other moderators, I deleted the video. It was not and will not be publicly shared with the group. I sent a message to the member to explain why his post was rejected. Depending on his response, we may kick him from the group. His current status means that his posts are all reviewed by moderators. I will find a way to raise the topic of graffiti / vandalism in the group - perhaps by mentioning this video or perhaps with some other content.

Your comments were very helpful. Thank you.

 

[daesdaemar]

Respectfully, while not recommending the individual be necessarily banned from your group, I would recommend his video not be posted even if the graffiti portion is eliminated.
I do not believe that it is unreasonable to really make the point that his actions were destructive.

Having said that, I would not have any personal concerns were he banned from your group.

 

[DonnaS18]

Conclusion - After speaking with the other moderators, I deleted the video. It was not and will not be publicly shared with the group. I sent a message to the member to explain why his post was rejected. Depending on his response, we may kick him from the group. His current status means that his posts are all reviewed by moderators. I will find a way to raise the topic of graffiti / vandalism in the group - perhaps by mentioning this video or perhaps with some other content.

Your comments were very helpful. Thank you.

Thank you for not glorifying this unsociable behaviour. I agree that nearly everyone who graffitis knows its wrong, advising them again does not educate them but reinforces the negative behaviour by drawing others attention to it. This was their aim in the first place - notice me I left my mark/ my rubbish/ or my sh.t in your neighbourhood- and not only don’t I care about you, but I will video and brag about it.
Well done moderators - correct decision in my view.

 

[josephmcclain]

It seems that your group member is attempting to do another round of graffiti-vandalism; the first was defacing something on the Camino, the second by defacing and -- in effect -- vandalizing and contaminating your forum/group. S/he is attempting to leave his/her bad behavior as a selfishly inspired "look at me" mark on the forum.

I carefully read and re-read your post to see if there was something I was missing which is creating the dilemma as to you allowing the video to be posted or not. You have the appropriate -- to me -- answer: I would absolutely refuse to post the video. I would also -- without posting the name of the group member -- post a message as a moderator which acknowledged that the video was received and why it was not allowed to be posted. Write about how upsetting it is to view this type of vandalism. Then allow other members react. I would NOT allow the vandal to post, especially if s/he tries to rationalize or defend their behavior.

If your forum/group has a Terms of Use and/or rules of conduct about posting things which are potentially harmful or demonstrates poor conduct, and I would use a broad interpretation on what this means, I would temporarily revoke posting privileges for quite a while (4 to 6 months).

You have the opportunity to help reinforce what is normal and expected and socially accepted behavior for those of us who walk Camino; this becomes even more important if the vandal was a foreign visitor to the country(s) in question.

I can understand that you might have discomfiture with the notion of censoring, but that is what having a moderated group is all about --- having a place where individuals with common interests can gather and share within the bounds of expected and acceptable behavior. Vandalism is neither expected or acceptable behavior.

AGREE!

 

[sunwanderer]

I would accept and post a video with an apology, as long as it contained nothing else: nothing about the camino, not even a shot of the graffiti, just the person and his apology.

 

[Caminolou]

I guess its wrong but somehow I liked reading the text messages written all over the place. Some where inspiring on hard days. I understand it shouldnt be like that. Still on my walk this year I will take pictures of them whenever they strike me. I dont know why, at times they made me feel less alone. Like one of the small gifts that pop up in many ways along the camino.

 

[RJM]

I guess its wrong but somehow I liked reading the text messages written all over the place. Some where inspiring on hard days. I understand it shouldnt be like that. Still on my walk this year I will take pictures of them whenever they strike me. I dont know why, at times they made me feel less alone. Like one of the small gifts that pop up in many ways along the camino.

You were inspired by illegal graffiti? Childishly scrawled out words on km markers and trash bins? Really?

 

[Caminolou]

You were inspired by illegal graffiti? Childishly scrawled out words on km markers and trash bins? Really?

I dont know, I saw this text quoting “a ship in harbour is safest but this is not what ships are build for” I liked that. Half way down the way I noticed a tekst saying “Santiago is still a long way, like in the beginning” didnt like that or the stop signs where they add dont stop walking. I needed that at times. Maybe because Im not a native speaker. Maybe because Im interested in whats going on in peoples minds. I wouldnt call it inspiration. More in a tv commercial kind of way, some are funny, some just an utter disgrace. Many of them where kind of lovely. Maybe they should set up some blank signs for people to reflect their emotions on with a big sign above it saying scrible your shit here. Im off again in april and no I will not take a marker or a spray can. I also liked the rock formations being build all over the place. Made me wonder whom and why. Does that make any sense?

 

[Gracy101]

Thanks for your advice. I am leaning toward deleting the video with a private explanation. I don't feel like expelling the member from the group or calling this out in public, but I'll see how the other moderators feel.

(I like the suggestion that we could ask him to delete the image from the video - but I would rather have him erase the graffiti from the stone).

Yes, I think asking him to delete is the right thing to do.

 

[Caminolou]

Me to. They shouldnt do it I agree.

 

[David]

I dont know, I saw this text quoting “a ship in harbour is safest but this is not what ships are build for” I liked that. "

Attributed to Grace Hopper - 1981 - and possibly first appeared in the Yale year book - to me it has echos of John Donne (Elizabethan poet, died 1631) - Confined Love - which rails against old men with young wives kept under 'lock and key' - but as John was an outrageous rake it was most likely written to entice a beautiful young wife!!
In full - is it not marvellous?? Early feminist or wanton rake??

CONFINED LOVE.
by John Donne

Some man unworthy to be possessor
Of old or new love, himself being false or weak,
Thought his pain and shame would be lesser,
If on womankind he might his anger wreak ;
And thence a law did grow,
One might but one man know ;
But are other creatures so?

Are sun, moon, or stars by law forbidden
To smile where they list, or lend away their light?
Are birds divorced or are they chidden
If they leave their mate, or lie abroad a night?
Beasts do no jointures lose
Though they new lovers choose ;
But we are made worse than those.

Who e'er rigg'd fair ships to lie in harbours,
And not to seek lands, or not to deal with all?
Or built fair houses, set trees, and arbours,
Only to lock up, or else to let them fall?
Good is not good, unless
A thousand it possess,
But doth waste with greediness.

He was a rake - I think it was a courtship poem!!

 

[Finisterre]

I'm glad there is an undercurrent of tolerance on this thread. I too dislike the mindless marking of territory, but the signatures under the top bunk quietly gladden my heart.

 

[Caminolou]

He was a rake - I think it was a courtship poem!!

Just got to know why it appealed so much to me Thanks!

 

[Former member 81810]

By far and away the biggest disappointment of my Camino was the desecration of the distance markers, especially the 100km one on Frances. Nothing should be allowed to be published that might appear to support such anti-social behaviour.

 

[Klogwog]

I made it a point to state that the name should NOT be used. However, the BEHAVIOR of the individual should definitely face public shaming.

I agree entirely shame him set an example ,so others will know

 

[sunwanderer]

Maybe because I'm interested in what's going on in peoples minds ... Made me wonder whom and why.

That's understandable from the point of a traveler. But think of it from the point of view of those who pass by there daily, or those who own property defaced by thoughts or thoughtlessness. If a couple dozen people came by your house everyday and wrote something on you door, window, sidewalk, fence - after a few weeks (months?) of cleaning them up you wouldn't be so interested anymore.

When I'm walking through a forest, or a city for that matter, I feel like (selfishly) the sights I'm seeing are mine and are providing me with my own experience. The graffiti seems intrusive, taking away that experience and shoving something else in my face. I can ignore graffiti when it's not too blatant or voluminous. But a few times it just sickened me.

The Camino is not supposed to be a place where someone can share what's on their mind to everyone else, whether they want to hear it or not. Youngsters feel like every time they have a thought or feeling, everybody else wants to know about it: the Camino has become a Twitter / Facebook public media.

Graffiti isn't something new, you can go to Rome and see plenty of examples 2,000 years old. But that doesn't make it OK.

 

[Caminolou]

I agree sunwander, it shouldnt be done. I wouldnt for sure.

 

[Rex]

Too many youngsters (and a few oldsters) seem to think the entire world is their canvas... mostly a first world problem, but one to be discouraged, appropriately, as it is a selfish expression of ego vs selfless enjoyment of the moment and passing by without leaving "your mark". My feelings about this are influenced by several years of janitorial work to help pay for college... which included cleaning up graffiti and other "statements of personal artistic and cultural expression". Not posting the video and telling the person why they were wrong to deface property are a good start. From my experience, a little public shaming will be necessary before they actually begin to understand that their freedom of expression is destructive and a taking of something that belongs to the whole public...
Peace and Buen Camino

 

[lt56ny]

Thanks for your advice. I am leaning toward deleting the video with a private explanation. I don't feel like expelling the member from the group or calling this out in public, but I'll see how the other moderators feel.

(I like the suggestion that we could ask him to delete the image from the video - but I would rather have him erase the graffiti from the stone).

I think you should not post the video. At first I thought that just having them delete those parts would ok but upon further review I would rather the video not be posted. Yes I know there is graffiti all through the Camino and I personally hate it. I also know that this forum bends over backwards towards tolerance but some lines must be drawn and to me this is one of them.

 

[Former member 72918]

You were inspired by illegal graffiti? Childishly scrawled out words on km markers and trash bins? Really?

Mother of God why are you scolding him, what a reaction!!!!

 

[Former member 72918]

Some of the responses here are unreal. 'Name and shame', 'use the author as an example' etc....
I reckon moderator, say it directly 2 him/her and judging by his/her reaction take it from there.... he/she may be genuinely completely oblivious 2the offence graffiti causes, and do you know why? Because we are all different. I'm guessing if they could see these posts they would be absolutely mortified and upset.
What I find most disheartening here are some of the condemning responses to this post.

 

[Caminolou]

Mother of God why are you scolding him, what a reaction!!!!

No offense taken, thats the internet. People react out of their own mindset at that very moment. I do the same sometimes. There is no physical interaction, he was upset about graffiti and couldnt relate to what I was trying to say. Hence my further explanation. This works best normally. I was a combat soldier, I can handle things personally

 

[Caminolou]

Some of the responses here are unreal. 'Name and shame', 'use the author as an example' etc....
I reckon moderator, say it directly 2 him/her and judging by his/her reaction take it from there.... he/she may be genuinely completely oblivious 2the offence graffiti causes, and do you know why? Because we are all different. I'm guessing if they could see these posts they would be absolutely mortified and upset.
What I find most disheartening here are some of the condemning responses to this post.

A bit medieval he?!

 

[Former member 72918]

A bit medieval he?!

A bit?! understatement!

 

[CAJohn]

I view graffiti as an expression of contempt for the community that one is in and one’s dissatisfaction with their place in that community. Most pilgrims go to much effort to go on a Camino. If they despise their environment so much, it really isn’t all that hard to find transportation out.

Along the same lines...I can’t stand those horrid “locks of love” that so many like to attach to iconic places. How about a simple kiss. Or even a selfie of a simple kiss.

Leave no trace.

 

[Deleted member 67185]

No offense taken, thats the internet. People react out of their own mindset at that very moment. I do the same sometimes. There is no physical interaction, he was upset about graffiti and couldnt relate to what I was trying to say. Hence my further explanation. This works best normally. I was a combat soldier, I can handle things personally

Your reaction was fine, Caminolou.

Do you know what I find disheartening? It is not what you and many of us have posted as a condemnation of the graffiti.

I find it disheartening that bad behavior is tolerated by some to a point where there is little boundary between right and wrong.

I find it disheartening when what should easily be a common and agreed upon understanding of bad and destructive behavior is missing in action.

What I find disheartening is that those who condemn bad and destructive behavior in a meaningful manner are themselves condemned. That what is a normal response to that bad and destructive behavior is defined as being negative because it is somehow bad for anyone who is doing bad things to feel shame over their bad behavior.

What I find disheartening is that even though it has clearly been stated that no names should be mentioned when soundly condemning the bad behavior, that some keep bringing that up as the smelliest of red herrings.

As I said, you are fine with your response; it was those posting a negative response to you -- calling you to task -- who are in the wrong here.

 

[Former member 72918]

Your reaction was fine, Caminolou.

Do you know what I find disheartening? It is not what you and many of us have posted as a condemnation of the graffiti.

I find it disheartening that bad behavior is tolerated by some to a point where there is little boundary between right and wrong.

I find it disheartening when what should easily be a common and agreed upon understanding of bad and destructive behavior is missing in action.

What I find disheartening is that those who condemn bad and destructive behavior in a meaningful manner are themselves condemned. That what is a normal response to that bad and destructive behavior is defined as being negative because it is somehow bad for anyone who is doing bad things to feel shame over their bad behavior.

What I find disheartening is that even though it has clearly been stated that no names should be mentioned when soundly condemning the bad behavior, that some keep bringing that up as the smelliest of red herrings.

As I said, you are fine with your response; it was those posting a negative response to you -- calling you to task -- who are in the wrong here.

If you feel I'm in the wrong fair enough. I think this issue could have been resolved with a direct msg to the author. I personally thought some of the reactions were way ott and harsh. Again, just my opinion which clearly is not welcome.

 

[David]

There is a current post-modernist delusional belief that ~"everything is ok" and, as Traa says "we are all different" but from this eventually comes that we should look at the problems of perpetrators, of any crime, look at them as also somehow victims - but this is utter nonsense.

Of course we are all different, each human is unique, but there is right and wrong, absolutely clear right and wrong and this modern experiment with 'liberal democracy' over the last forty years has proven this to be the case just by the phenomenal increase in all crimes, fear, no go areas in our towns, and civil unrest that this new "me" society has led to.

Being a citizen isn't just benefit, it is more importantly responsibility, and there are clear lines between supporting society by being responsible and being that which helps to undermine it, and eventually take it into chaos.

Only a person with sub-normal mental abilities does not know the rules of society and I, for one, believe in zero tolerance - if you do not live in the uk you may not know, but London is a bloodbath at the moment with teenage gang members slaughtering both opposing gang members and innocents. This may seem to be an extreme example but it has come about because of this post modern nonsense and lack of clear policing and justice - so, for me? - enough of pandering to the perpetrators - it is time to support decent citizens and all of our societies - and that includes understanding that vandalism is vandalism and has utterly nothing to do with us all being 'different' - don't you think??

Because if we ignore small crimes we will then, as we do right now, have to deal with big crimes - how else could it be?

I know that this is outside the normal frame of live and let live, and i do not think of graffiti as serious, only as a symptom of a malaise. and - it is only one more personal opinion after all.

 

[Deleted member 67185]

If you feel I'm in the wrong fair enough. I think this issue could have been resolved with a direct msg to the author. I personally thought some of the reactions were way ott and harsh. Again, just my opinion which clearly is not welcome.

My comments are only focused on the content that is posted, not on the individual making the post. I do not know you as a person, so the only thing I can comment on is what is posted . . . not just by you, but others who have shared similar sentiments. While we obviously disagree on this issue, we may very well agree on many other issues and have a lot in common. Or not. This just underscores how important it is to limit disagreements to that which is said, and not to those who are posting.

The free marketplace of ideas is tricky; when one publicly expresses an opinion there will always be a risk of others disagreeing with that opinion. That back and forth dialogue is healthy, though. It allows participants and readers to absorb what is said and then decide what position they agree with. One puts forth an idea or opinion in that marketplace, and then the public decides what they wish to buy or reject.

The tricky part is how the dialogue is conducted. Logical and rational persuasion within appropriate rhetorical boundaries is healthy. It is when one side of the debate can no longer make a rational argument, but instead resorts to non sequiturs, name calling, labeling, and ad hominems where the discussion degenerates into a diseased, gangrenous infection which is then useless and best cut off.

The above is why I enjoy this Forum, and why it is one of very few social media sites which I participate in. The Moderators do a terrific job of amputating gangrenous postings without hacking off large potions of healthy tissue.

Yes, I disagree with your opinion on this issue. And again, you disagree with me. But what we apparently share as enthusiasts about Camino is the larger binding factor we have in common.

 

[Jbirk]

If you post it, you are tacitly endorsing the behavior - your group has a moderator for a reason, no? I would inform the author that vandalism is not supported by your forum and offer to post the video once that portion is removed from their submission.

I also agree with Vacajoe even though he is a fireman.

 

[Caminolou]

Jeez guys, I’m a not a native speaker. Reading your stories feels like Im in English class again. As a former soldier I dont normally speak like Im reading a book to my kids. I liked this forum but you guys. Fng lighten up brothers. Traa was talking about the stuff off shaming people up to a point of almost stoning them. Relax. I have killed people for less dont worry traa, if scribbeling some shit on a wall is considered a major crime by some Im at your side. We can take em down in an eyewink. old brothers, really nice, but dont behave as a pack of wolves. Im not impressed. Im even starting to doubt if I should post on this forum again. Thanks to the moral police.

 

[Caminolou]

I also agree with Vacajoe even though he is a fireman.

Now thats funny. Finaly some less biblical text as a mod told me.

 

[Former member 72918]

My comments are only focused on the content that is posted, not on the individual making the post. I do not know you as a person, so the only thing I can comment on is what is posted . . . not just by you, but others who have shared similar sentiments. While we obviously disagree on this issue, we may very well agree on many other issues and have a lot in common. Or not. This just underscores how important it is to limit disagreements to that which is said, and not to those who are posting.

The free marketplace of ideas is tricky; when one publicly expresses an opinion there will always be a risk of others disagreeing with that opinion. That back and forth dialogue is healthy, though. It allows participants and readers to absorb what is said and then decide what position they agree with. One puts forth an idea or opinion in that marketplace, and then the public decides what they wish to buy or reject.

The tricky part is how the dialogue is conducted. Logical and rational persuasion within appropriate rhetorical boundaries is healthy. It is when one side of the debate can no longer make a rational argument, but instead resorts to non sequiturs, name calling, labeling, and ad hominems where the discussion degenerates into a diseased, gangrenous infection which is then useless and best cut off.

The above is why I enjoy this Forum, and why it is one of very few social media sites which I participate in. The Moderators do a terrific job of amputating gangrenous postings without hacking off large potions of healthy tissue.

Yes, I disagree with your opinion on this issue. And again, you disagree with me. But what we apparently share as enthusiasts about Camino is the larger binding factor we have in common.

I must say I do love the way you articulate your point there! I think I perhaps reacted and sent my msg a little quickly. You clearly think before you post and therefore get your point of view across in a much better manner than I very poorly attempted to.
By the way I hate graffiti of any nature and was by no means defending the author! I have learned to think before I type..... thank you

 

[Caminolou]

Your reaction was fine, Caminolou.

I guess its not anymore now. I am suffering from ptsd, it means I have a short fuse and a long memory. Working on it.

 

[Caminolou]

I must say I do love the way you articulate your point there! I think I perhapsYou clearly think before you post and therefore get your point of view across in a much better manner than I very poorly attempted to.
By the way I hate graffiti of any nature and was by no means defending the author! I have learned to think before I type..... thank you

You must be a native speaker. I have to read these text 3 times before I get the clue.

 

[Caminolou]

While we obviously disagree on this issue, we may very well agree on many other issues and have a lot in common. Or not.

The tricky part is how the dialogue is conducted.

Yes, I disagree with your opinion on this issue. And again, you disagree with me.

what we apparently share as enthusiasts about Camino is the larger binding factor we have in common.

In the army thats translated to:

F you

I will F you

F you again

Lets be friends.

You see less words are clearer. Correct me if Im wrong.

 

[Deleted member 67185]

In the army thats translated to:

F you

I will F you

F you again

Lets be friends.

You see less words are clearer. Correct me if Im wrong.

As a combat veteran out of Vietnam, I understand where you are coming from . But, no, that's not really what I was saying.

 

[Caminolou]

As a combat veteran out of Vietnam, I understand where you are coming from .

Finaly Sir, I try to do the same. At ease.

 

[Juanajoanna]

What about burning clothes? Or discarding old boots by the side of the road. Or leaving notes along the way? All these things irritate me as someone else has to clean the area periodically or the trail would become impassable.

 

[DebraS.]

I wouldn't support the idea of positing it WITH the graffiti included but it would be entertaining to see what the viewers would say if it did get posted. evil laugh I am sure the viewers would tear him up after viewing it and that might be a learning lesson.

 

[KYBirdman]

I came upon a man defacing a waypost while walking this past October. We had a conversation with me telling him how disappointing that he would think defacing was good to do. He thought it an expression of himself. I thought of the massive ego he had to have to believe he had the right to write on someone else’s property and think it would be appreciated. He saw nothing wrong with his actions which was soooo irritating.

I liken his action to having a guest write on the walls in my home because “he could”. I cannot understand his thoughts.

I support the suggestion to not post the video.

 

[Caminolou]

What about burning clothes? Or discarding old boots by the side of the road. Or leaving notes along the way? All these things irritate me as someone else has to clean the area periodically or the trail would become impassable.

Last time I carried a plastic bag and picked up trash on the trail to throw it in the next available bin. Little effort, big help. Nobody likes it. Stayed away from the dumps and the wipes. Terrible. There are things we can do, just talking about it doesnt solve the problem.

 

[Mugatu]

What about burning clothes? Or discarding old boots by the side of the road. Or leaving notes along the way? All these things irritate me as someone else has to clean the area periodically or the trail would become impassable.

If we were to look at things as black and white, and it seems after reading most of these post some individuals do, you also need to add building cairns to your list.

I think people on here really should ask themselves then, what is an acceptable form of cartharsis, because that’s what some of those notes are, whether it be a note of remembrance at Cruz de Ferro, an obituary along the way, a memento left at certain points (I just watched a vlog of a gentleman who lost his brother walking the Frances, leaving keys behind).

If you take leave no trace to its literal meaning, I would venture to guess at least 60% of peregrinos are guilty of violations. For myself, building cairns is a big no, but I won’t harp on you on the Camino, but will definitely say something if we’re out in the wilderness. The point is, these behaviors lie in a grey area; moreover, have been adopted and almost encouraged on the Camino.

Graffiti is one thing that I appreciate in certain contexts but not in others; likely done by locals.

HYOH

 

[Bob P]

I'm one of the moderators of a camino-related, online, group. A member of the group has uploaded a video of his camino. It requires moderator approval before it is published for everyone in the group to view.
When I watched the video, I discovered that this person and his friends wrote their names and a short message in black marker pen on a stone shell. I recognize this shell - While it's not a historic monument, it makes an otherwise unlovely spot somewhat special. I took a photograph of it a couple of years ago before it had any graffiti on it. I'm horrified that a person within my "circle" thinks that it's appropriate to deface things along the way. He appears to be proud of this vandalism, since it appears at the start and end of the video.
How do you think I should handle this? I could disallow his post and let him know why. I could approve the video and let other members of the group react. I could remove him from the group...
Any thoughts?

Totally unacceptable. How about sending the video clip AND contact infomation to the authorities? As well as telling them NO and deleteing them. There need to be some consequences for stupidity.

 

[San Pedro]

Graffiti is pure mindless vandalism, nothing less. The old saying " You can't fix stupid" rings true here. Why someone has to disrespect the nation of Spain and something as beautiful in all ways as the Camino is beyond me and undoubtedly 99% of all others!

Having worked in the stone business for 35+ years there was nothing worse than seeing where someone had decided to deface a building you had finished and walked away from feeling proud of the job you had done. It is hard to find a granite km marker in Galicia that has not been defaced, I can guarantee that the person that made that marker felt proud of the job he had done and now some mindless idiot has ruined it.

With natural stone it is not just a case of cleaning it, the stone absorbs the paint or marker and often sandblasting is the only fix, however that removes part of the stone and changes something that could been made several hundred years ago for ever. The only way to reduce graffiti is to remove it immediately after it is done otherwise someone else will feel the need to add to it, unfortunately someone has to do this on a daily basis.

Hidden trail cameras and stiff jail sentences may be the only deterrent, some tourists in Thailand were caught last year and were facing up to 10 years!

 

[Caminolou]

Graffiti is one thing that I appreciate in certain contexts but not in others; likely done by locals.View attachment 51665

HYOH

 

[Caminolou]

Hidden trail cameras and stiff jail sentences may be the only deterrent, some tourists in Thailand were caught last year and were facing up to 10 years!

View attachment 51678

F me.... are you serious? Maximum sentence down here is 12 years, you need to kill for that. Hope your kids will be very obedient...

 

[Just 2K]

You were inspired by illegal graffiti? Childishly scrawled out words on km markers and trash bins? Really?

Yes, that happens.
I was in a particularly steep climb on a hot day and struggling to keep my family motivated to keep moving lest we spend the rest of the day baking in the heat, when we passed an informative marker that had been long since destroyed and the text of whatever it was explaining had been ripped out.
I was saddened by the destruction of the marker.
Someone had written in black Sharpie on the mount for the missing poster a quote from Churchill, "If you're going through hell, keep going."
It was very appropriate for that moment in life, spurred us on, and has stuck with me and my family ever since.

 

[Finisterre]

Graffiti may show a lack of respect for the community but we need to remember the context. We are monkeys. Evolved somewhat but still close. 98% common DNA.

A troupe will be controlled by a small clique. There will be outliers that orbit the territory, want in, but not at any price. They feel they should not be expected to kowtow to the clique. And to be honest I'm not comfortable with the authoritarian response to minor defiance The name and shame policy is pure patriarchy. And it is about maintaining the status quo. Asserting the established powers.

I'm not sure that the job of a religious forum is to assert authority over nonconformists.

 

[Mugatu]

Graffiti may show a lack of respect for the community but we need to remember the context. We are monkeys. Evolved somewhat but still close. 98% common DNA.

A troupe will be controlled by a small clique. There will be outliers that orbit the territory, want in, but not at any price. They feel they should not be expected to kowtow to the clique. And to be honest I'm not comfortable with the authoritarian response to minor defiance The name and shame policy is pure patriarchy. And it is about maintaining the status quo. Asserting the established powers.

I'm not sure that the job of a religious forum is to assert authority over nonconformists.

You said it before I could.

Let me preface this first by saying, I'm no longer a practicing Catholic.

Some of the undertones of these post are contrary to what the Camino is supposed to inspire and evoke within us, seems many have failed to bring it back with them into their daily lives. Its interesting how hypercritical, and borderline sanctimonious this thread is becoming...

Ill leave it with this, interpret it as you will.

Ferris Bueller, " It's understanding that makes it possible for people like us to tolerate a person like yourself."

 

[Finisterre]

I'm glad of your support. I thought I might be jumped on... Thanks.

I think a lot of people just react, I don't think many of them when asked to analyse their annoyance would find it easy to source their motivations. I think we automatically follow our social programming, and want to keep in with the group. And the group definitely doesn't do graffiti.

I still don't much like graffitI, I like flowers and landscapes, curves and stuff.

 

[David]

Graffiti may show a lack of respect for the community but we need to remember the context. We are monkeys. Evolved somewhat but still close. 98% common DNA.

A troupe will be controlled by a small clique. There will be outliers that orbit the territory, want in, but not at any price. They feel they should not be expected to kowtow to the clique. And to be honest I'm not comfortable with the authoritarian response to minor defiance The name and shame policy is pure patriarchy. And it is about maintaining the status quo. Asserting the established powers.

I'm not sure that the job of a religious forum is to assert authority over nonconformists.

EErrrmmmm .... we aren't descended from monkeys, our line is apes. 98% shared with chimpanzees true, but 92% with mice and even 60% with bananas!
It works like this - there is only one life, created (or spontaneously appeared if you prefer) and it has become diverse but it is all still related, closely related, as the building blocks are all the same, but our modern tree is via apes, not monkeys.
Ape societies as well as monkey societies are ruled by a single alpha male, not a clique.

and - the job of a religious forum is indeed to promulgate its beliefs and therefore does assert authority over non-conformists - but the Camino forum isn't a religious forum, it is an open forum - an open space for discussion, from all points of view - no cliques.

 

[Former member 72918]

I wouldn't support the idea of positing it WITH the graffiti included but it would be entertaining to see what the viewers would say if it did get posted. evil laugh I am sure the viewers would tear him up after viewing it and that might be a learning lesson.

Horrible!

 

[Finisterre]

Monkey, ape, whatever, my point was about our natural social dynamics generally supporting a patriarchial dominance of outsiders and the less powerful. I am pleased to hear this forum is not here to condemn the nonconformists, the irreligious and/or hopefully the socially inept. The clique I meant was a metaphor for the interests of the ruling classes.

And indeed it's a good place to have a chat.

 

[PEI_Heather]

Graffiti is pure mindless vandalism, nothing less. The old saying " You can't fix stupid" rings true here. Why someone has to disrespect the nation of Spain and something as beautiful in all ways as the Camino is beyond me and undoubtedly 99% of all others!

Having worked in the stone business for 35+ years there was nothing worse than seeing where someone had decided to deface a building you had finished and walked away from feeling proud of the job you had done. It is hard to find a granite km marker in Galicia that has not been defaced, I can guarantee that the person that made that marker felt proud of the job he had done and now some mindless idiot has ruined it.

With natural stone it is not just a case of cleaning it, the stone absorbs the paint or marker and often sandblasting is the only fix, however that removes part of the stone and changes something that could been made several hundred years ago for ever. The only way to reduce graffiti is to remove it immediately after it is done otherwise someone else will feel the need to add to it, unfortunately someone has to do this on a daily basis.

Hidden trail cameras and stiff jail sentences may be the only deterrent, some tourists in Thailand were caught last year and were facing up to 10 years!

View attachment 51678

The tourists were caught on camera defacing a wall from the 13th century. They were charged with vandalizing an ancient artifact and faced a maximum of 10 years in prison and a fine equivalent to about $40,000 CAD. The young Canadian woman avoided more jail time, but must still pay a $4,000 CAD fine for her actions. The other, a young British man, was fined £4,700 BP. The two admitted they were both drunk at the time.

A little different than the Camino. I don't condone graffiti tags, but have seen some beautiful work in many places including on the Camino. I doubt that tourists or pilgrims would walk with multiple cans of spray paint needed to produce the wickedly good pieces. The tags by pilgrims would be done with easily carried Sharpie markers or such...

I know what you are saying about the defacing of stone. I'm just clarifying the note you made about the tourists in Thailand.

 

[Icacos]

Ferris Bueller, " It's understanding that makes it possible for people like us to tolerate a person like yourself."

I like this. Not because it may or may not reflect on anyone, or anything, on this thread. Just that it makes me giggle.

 

[Mazzy]

I'm one of the moderators of a camino-related, online, group. A member of the group has uploaded a video of his camino. It requires moderator approval before it is published for everyone in the group to view.
When I watched the video, I discovered that this person and his friends wrote their names and a short message in black marker pen on a stone shell. I recognize this shell - While it's not a historic monument, it makes an otherwise unlovely spot somewhat special. I took a photograph of it a couple of years ago before it had any graffiti on it. I'm horrified that a person within my "circle" thinks that it's appropriate to deface things along the way. He appears to be proud of this vandalism, since it appears at the start and end of the video.
How do you think I should handle this? I could disallow his post and let him know why. I could approve the video and let other members of the group react. I could remove him from the group...
Any thoughts?

I have yet to walk the camino but I've seen so much graffiti on YouTube videos and people's pics and while I hate it and would never ever do this personally I don't believe that hanging, drawing and quartering and casting out of this individual is the answer either. I hate seeing graffiti in private albergues too. However it seems there's a bit of a pack mentality with everyone braying for his blood. I would post the pic and let the comments work their magic. It might be enough for this person to think more carefully about their actions next time. It's not as if he's the first and he certainly won't be the last. I say put it up.

 

[CAJohn]

If you are on the Camino and see someone comiting vandalism, you can always take a picture or video of the crime and send it to the Spanish police using their AlertCOPS app. They have a specific section for reporting Vandalism. That gives me the impression that they are interesting in hearing about it. If they catch the perpetrator, they can cite the perpetrator.

I hardly think that the punishment would involve some major human rights violation. Probably a painful fine and possibly having to do some clean up or repair.

The Spanish can decide for themselves what they want to put up with and what the punishment should be for violating their laws.

 

[TaraWalks]

I like this. Not because it may or may not reflect on anyone, or anything, on this thread. Just that it makes me giggle.

And Ferris Bueller’s Day Off is still a pretty funny film that stands the test of time. My partner and I quote from it frequently and for a number of different situations

 

[Antonius Vaessen]

I agree with all negative comments about graffiti. But could all the thousands of yellow arrows on walls, stones, houses also be considered as graffiti. I don't know if all inhabitants of villages are happy about that.

 

[Icacos]

And Ferris Bueller’s Day Off is still a pretty funny film that stands the test of time. My partner and I quote from it frequently and for a number of different situations

I had to google Ferris Bueller and learned of him and the film for the first time. I missed a few things back in the 80’s when I was busy raising my kids - I admit, some of those things might have been less significant than others.

 

[DonnaS18]

Mother of God why are you scolding him, what a reaction!!!!

Traa perception is an interesting thing..
I have read and re read @Rum comments and can see no scolding there.
apart from your harsh words and reaction

 

[MichaelB10398]

Graffiti may show a lack of respect for the community but we need to remember the context. We are monkeys. Evolved somewhat but still close. 98% common DNA.

A troupe will be controlled by a small clique. There will be outliers that orbit the territory, want in, but not at any price. They feel they should not be expected to kowtow to the clique. And to be honest I'm not comfortable with the authoritarian response to minor defiance The name and shame policy is pure patriarchy. And it is about maintaining the status quo. Asserting the established powers.

I'm not sure that the job of a religious forum is to assert authority over nonconformists.

Oh, I thought common decency and respect for things that are not yours was okay to expect of others and others to sense an obligation for such.
The "patriarchy" comment is just laughable...seriously laughable.

 

[Finisterre]

You don't really understand the usage then. When people complain of the patriarchy it isn't about a bunch of men lording it over everyone else. It's a way to describe the frequently socially authoritarian setup of our communities.

For example here we have Ivarr, moderators, various classes of users and guests. And we don't like it when a guest steps out of line.

Or our glorious Queen, the aristocracy, various graduated classes of plebs. And try saying something anti monarchist to a pleb. They don't like it.

Or people as property. The driver behind church marriage was the writing of agreements about land between the parties of nobles. If the woman dies in childbirth what happens to the property she might take in as a dowry, etc? We needed a literate person, a cleric, to write it down.

The Patriarchy describes the way many conventional people like to run things.

 

[Finisterre]

Oh, I thought common decency and respect for things that are not yours was okay to expect of others and others to sense an obligation for such.
The "patriarchy" comment is just laughable...seriously laughable.

Common decency and respect for property etc is absolutely the way our elites like it. They would be daft not to, when the richest 26 people in the world own more than the poorest 3.8 Billion. If we all had access to all those resources what would be the point of being a big cheese?

You just need to step back a little. I'm not saying that the way things are currently run is automatically bad, but we should make ourselves aware of how a lot of our attitudes are complicit in the continued pauperisation of billions.

 

[ivar]

Closing this thread as the original poster has gotten the advice he was looking for.