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You definitely see images of Jesus hanging on the cross as the central image in Protestant churches behind/above the altar in Europe.
You phrased it in such a gentle and kind way, it's heart warming. I'm serious. As I see it, the problem with these definitions is that they just don't fit the Camino phenomenon/experience. People are dead keen on identifying themselves as pilgrims and their endeavour as a pilgrimage but the common definitions just don't fit when you "don't have a religious bone in your body". In all these definitions, the main elements are the destination and the respect. Respect paid to the saint, or other person or event that is remembered, not the respect of the environment during travel or of the companions, i.e. desired and acceptable behaviour. Because respect in that sense ought to be a given and not restricted to pilgrimages. I sometimes feel that caminantes would be a good term as a loan word in English to replace pilgrims. OTOH, we have already peregrinos and pilgs.May we respectfully ask you to look and read your own writings from the Cambridge University Dictionary "Keeper of the English Language". We feel that if you read that carefully you would not have penned this post. Sincerely Ian
At least in the most popular parts of the Grand Canyon other than the rim areas, there's no competition for a bed at the point of arrival. I see that things have gotten worse there, too. Many years ago, we walked down to the river, slept in our tents on the grounds of the Phantom Ranch and spent another night somewhere higher on the way up. I'd actually call part of this experience spiritual ... and a walk through the past; if ever there was such a thing, that's it! Anyway, we had to go with a guide who had a permit, otherwise we would not have gotten a space to sleep at short notice, and nowadays you have to take part in a lottery if you want a bed, see website: Lottery entries will be required between the 1st and 25th of the 15th month prior to the desired stay month. You read that right: more than one year before your stay.these people should find somewhere else to vacation. Like he said the Grand Canyon.
I try not to be judgmental, more so since my Camino of 2017. But yes, 4,000 Euros IMO is offensive no matter if that pilgrim was able and willing to afford it for 10 days. I did my Camino SJPdP/SDC (30 days) with less than 900 Euros (excluding air fare) at tremendous sacrifice coming from Belize. I trust that he learnt something about modesty and humility on his journey. But as several have posted: to each his own, who are we to judge?I read the website and as I said in my post my reaction to it was based on someone who referred to themselves as a pilgrim and on pilgrimage in the podcast that I listened to. I never said they referred to themselves as catering to pilgrims. It is the mere fact that you could charge 4,000 Euros for this "tour" that is on the camino is what I have objected to. If you read my responses to everyone else, I wouldn't blame you if you didn't, you may see more clearly what I am talking about.
Simply Brilliant I couldn’t have said it better, so many truths. You my friend are a true pilgrim.These definitions are from the Cambridge Dictionary. When I went to get my Certificate to teach English as a Second Language, Cambridge University and their dictionary was referred to as the "keeper of the English Language"
PILGRIM - a person who travels to a holy place as a religious act.
a person who makes a journey, often a long and difficult one, to a special place for religious reasons
PILGRIMAGE - a trip, often a long one, made to a holy place for religious reasons
a special journey made by a pilgrim
a visit to a place that is considered special, where you go to show your respect
I would like to address an issue that has bothered me from my very first Camino. But before I begin I would like to say I have made friends through this site. I respect what all of us are trying to accomplish here. I have gained useful information and have felt very good when I as well as when I see others give back to the Camino but imparting and soothing fears and misgivings of new Pilgrims and giving information that is needed by all. We always learn from each walk we take. I know that this forum strives to respect everyone and is tolerant to each persons ideas and as people say we all walk our own Camino. I have done 4 Caminos and have traveled over 4,000 kilometers. I have had great pain, great joy, great tranquility, met the greatest people on earth and had experiences that range from the mundane to the ridiculous to the profound.
I cannot tell you how much the Camino means to me and how much I respect its sacred space. I am writing this on the CF Forum as this path to Santiago has given me great happiness and now causes me great concern.
I have absolutely no problem with people who because of personal or physical concerns or have time constraints, ship backpacks, or take some bus rides, or walk shorter distances. I have no problem with people who have been lucky enough to find a way to take their love of the Camino and make it their home by opening Albergue or pensions, restaurants, or have Camino related businesses or podcasts. What Brendon Burke does or the Pilgrim House or Dan Mullins songs. ( I don't even know if he earns money from his music but I hope he does and I hope everyone who takes that Camino plunge is successful. I know no one is going to get rich materially but I am sure the spiritual rewards are tremendous.
But I think it is possible for all of us to express concerns without having to incur the wrath of others because a controversial topic that is heartfelt and but may not be perceived as tolerant by some. It is time for a learning experience for all of this when this happens. I know some may say this is your issue not the Camino, that you need to be more open and less judgmental. Well we are all walking around all day carrying judgements and issues no matter how hard we try not too. It is the human experience. So yes this is my issue. That is because of the following:
The Camino is a sacred place to me and to many others. I have met people who were making profound changes or decisions in their lives. I have met a man who had terminal cancer and was trying to make sense of the time left and how to spend it. I met a woman who lost her husband and 3 small children in a car accident and had attempted suicide more than once. Her friend took her on the Camino hoping she would find something to help to allow her to go on.
The Camino IS a sacred place and to call yourself Pilgrim and to say you are on Pilgrimage have meaning and responsibility. There may be new aspects to draw on that encompass the meanings but the basics should never change.
A friend who I wrote to about this, who is on our forum feels the same frustration that I do, but advised me to say nothing. But I can't help myself. I speak out to voice a concern but also I am always hoping to hear an argument that may change my mind and bring me some peace.
On my first Camino I met wonderful people. People who were walking with purpose (even though many like myself had no idea what that purpose was. We just knew we had to be there). They struggled with the full spectrum of pain from the physical to the spiritual. There were days even then almost 10 years ago that it was a little hard to find an albergue. But then we reached Sarria. My experience there is something I have never forgotten or gotten over. I usually leave early because I love walking in the early morning dawn. I arrived in Sarria early at my albergue (it was a private one) and was struck by seeing at least 20 backpacks neatly stacked against a wall. All brand new. About 20 minutes later Pilgrims started coming in. We were located on the west side of town and this albergue might have been the last in town at the time. Someone told me all the other places were already full. A little while after that I saw a few people coming in who were hobbled with blisters and other assorted ailments without a place to stay. I called two friends who both had injuries and offered my bed but they said they were staying at a hotel off the camino and would taxi there and back. About 7PM the people started coming in who had reservations and had their backpacks against that wall. Many were very loud and very drunk. I had never encountered this before. Obviously the rest of the way into Santiago I encountered these people and it made me question what is the meaning and definition of a Peregrino.
I recently walked the Norte and for a couple of nights met a few older women who stayed in the same albergues that I did. I was walking with another American and a Swede at the time. We all talked the first morning at breakfast and I mentioned to them how much I respected them walking the Norte as the hills are really intense. Very steep and very long. One laughed and said the hills are not bad at all. It turns out that we found out after a few days that they took taxis up every single big hill on the Camino. I told my friends that night as a half/joke, what have Pilgrims become. The word is losing its meaning. My young Swedish friend said they are NOT pilgrims they are Tourgrims and they are all over the place. We then had a very good discussion about what it really means to be a pilgrim and what pilgrimage is.
A few weeks ago I heard a podcast with a "Pilgrim" that had walked 10 days on the Camino. He was on a luxury tour of the Camino. He talked about what the Camino did for him and I do not doubt his words or his sincerity. He wrote an article entitled "A day in the life of an Authentic Journeys Pilgrim:
"Fast forward to present day and you’ll find contemporary pilgrims from all walks of life and from every corner of the world traveling along this same storied path however, while some walk in the traditional way carrying their worldly possessions in their backpacks, bunk down in community albergues and dine from the pilgrim’s menu; there are others who opt for a more luxurious and convenient pace that includes deluxe accommodations and gourmet dining, plus the convenience of having luggage transported from place to place. And at the end of the day, the promise of a little pampering from your personal massage therapist beckons." This ten day journey costs 3,950 Euros. I was completely and utterly offended by this. I am not begrudging this trip for those who want or can afford it.
The only thing I will shout from the mountaintops is that THEY ARE NOT PILGRIMS/THIS IS NOT A PILGRIMAGE!
Must everything today be completely and utterly monetized and taken over by wealth and comfort? Can nothing be left to the simplicity of what the meaning of Pilgrim,/Pilgrimage is? Yes I know Kings and noblemen walked. Yes I know people were paid to walk for them to have their sins absolved. Yes I know the hundreds of other arguments about tolerance and inclusion. No although my personal opinion is these people should find somewhere else to vacation. Like he said the Grand Canyon. Yes you can't deny people the ability to make a living. You cannot exclude anyone from walking no matter what form their walk takes. Please I am not an idiot, I know! But as my friend so eloquently wrote to me and I say again there is a responsibility and a spirit of a TRUE Pilgrim. (yes I said it, True Pilgrim) It is sacred and most be continued in all its forms that include compassion, love and yes sacrifice. You know what, without sacrifice and knowing the true nature of sacrifice can you have the compassion and love for other Pilgrims when you are walking.
These companies are not giving you a pilgrim experience. Larger and larger numbers of people walking are tourists and looking for a cheap vacation.
TOURGRIMS
Please all I ask is that we look at this before the Camino becomes a spiritual Rodeo Drive.
I love the Camino and I love all Pilgrims.
Hope you all understand what I am trying to say. I probably could have said it in a lot less space but I have such a big damn mouth!
Buen Camino (I am too lazy to reread everything for typos).
I wouldn't worry about that at all if I were you. Just walk
Could not agree more. I think there is a danger we can overthink these things.I wouldn't worry about that at all if I were you. Just walk
Perhaps one of the things we learn as a Pilgrim is to live and let live. We all have different ways of doing things.These definitions are from the Cambridge Dictionary. When I went to get my Certificate to teach English as a Second Language, Cambridge University and their dictionary was referred to as the "keeper of the English Language"
PILGRIM - a person who travels to a holy place as a religious act.
a person who makes a journey, often a long and difficult one, to a special place for religious reasons
PILGRIMAGE - a trip, often a long one, made to a holy place for religious reasons
a special journey made by a pilgrim
a visit to a place that is considered special, where you go to show your respect
I would like to address an issue that has bothered me from my very first Camino. But before I begin I would like to say I have made friends through this site. I respect what all of us are trying to accomplish here. I have gained useful information and have felt very good when I as well as when I see others give back to the Camino but imparting and soothing fears and misgivings of new Pilgrims and giving information that is needed by all. We always learn from each walk we take. I know that this forum strives to respect everyone and is tolerant to each persons ideas and as people say we all walk our own Camino. I have done 4 Caminos and have traveled over 4,000 kilometers. I have had great pain, great joy, great tranquility, met the greatest people on earth and had experiences that range from the mundane to the ridiculous to the profound.
I cannot tell you how much the Camino means to me and how much I respect its sacred space. I am writing this on the CF Forum as this path to Santiago has given me great happiness and now causes me great concern.
I have absolutely no problem with people who because of personal or physical concerns or have time constraints, ship backpacks, or take some bus rides, or walk shorter distances. I have no problem with people who have been lucky enough to find a way to take their love of the Camino and make it their home by opening Albergue or pensions, restaurants, or have Camino related businesses or podcasts. What Brendon Burke does or the Pilgrim House or Dan Mullins songs. ( I don't even know if he earns money from his music but I hope he does and I hope everyone who takes that Camino plunge is successful. I know no one is going to get rich materially but I am sure the spiritual rewards are tremendous.
But I think it is possible for all of us to express concerns without having to incur the wrath of others because a controversial topic that is heartfelt and but may not be perceived as tolerant by some. It is time for a learning experience for all of this when this happens. I know some may say this is your issue not the Camino, that you need to be more open and less judgmental. Well we are all walking around all day carrying judgements and issues no matter how hard we try not too. It is the human experience. So yes this is my issue. That is because of the following:
The Camino is a sacred place to me and to many others. I have met people who were making profound changes or decisions in their lives. I have met a man who had terminal cancer and was trying to make sense of the time left and how to spend it. I met a woman who lost her husband and 3 small children in a car accident and had attempted suicide more than once. Her friend took her on the Camino hoping she would find something to help to allow her to go on.
The Camino IS a sacred place and to call yourself Pilgrim and to say you are on Pilgrimage have meaning and responsibility. There may be new aspects to draw on that encompass the meanings but the basics should never change.
A friend who I wrote to about this, who is on our forum feels the same frustration that I do, but advised me to say nothing. But I can't help myself. I speak out to voice a concern but also I am always hoping to hear an argument that may change my mind and bring me some peace.
On my first Camino I met wonderful people. People who were walking with purpose (even though many like myself had no idea what that purpose was. We just knew we had to be there). They struggled with the full spectrum of pain from the physical to the spiritual. There were days even then almost 10 years ago that it was a little hard to find an albergue. But then we reached Sarria. My experience there is something I have never forgotten or gotten over. I usually leave early because I love walking in the early morning dawn. I arrived in Sarria early at my albergue (it was a private one) and was struck by seeing at least 20 backpacks neatly stacked against a wall. All brand new. About 20 minutes later Pilgrims started coming in. We were located on the west side of town and this albergue might have been the last in town at the time. Someone told me all the other places were already full. A little while after that I saw a few people coming in who were hobbled with blisters and other assorted ailments without a place to stay. I called two friends who both had injuries and offered my bed but they said they were staying at a hotel off the camino and would taxi there and back. About 7PM the people started coming in who had reservations and had their backpacks against that wall. Many were very loud and very drunk. I had never encountered this before. Obviously the rest of the way into Santiago I encountered these people and it made me question what is the meaning and definition of a Peregrino.
I recently walked the Norte and for a couple of nights met a few older women who stayed in the same albergues that I did. I was walking with another American and a Swede at the time. We all talked the first morning at breakfast and I mentioned to them how much I respected them walking the Norte as the hills are really intense. Very steep and very long. One laughed and said the hills are not bad at all. It turns out that we found out after a few days that they took taxis up every single big hill on the Camino. I told my friends that night as a half/joke, what have Pilgrims become. The word is losing its meaning. My young Swedish friend said they are NOT pilgrims they are Tourgrims and they are all over the place. We then had a very good discussion about what it really means to be a pilgrim and what pilgrimage is.
A few weeks ago I heard a podcast with a "Pilgrim" that had walked 10 days on the Camino. He was on a luxury tour of the Camino. He talked about what the Camino did for him and I do not doubt his words or his sincerity. He wrote an article entitled "A day in the life of an Authentic Journeys Pilgrim:
"Fast forward to present day and you’ll find contemporary pilgrims from all walks of life and from every corner of the world traveling along this same storied path however, while some walk in the traditional way carrying their worldly possessions in their backpacks, bunk down in community albergues and dine from the pilgrim’s menu; there are others who opt for a more luxurious and convenient pace that includes deluxe accommodations and gourmet dining, plus the convenience of having luggage transported from place to place. And at the end of the day, the promise of a little pampering from your personal massage therapist beckons." This ten day journey costs 3,950 Euros. I was completely and utterly offended by this. I am not begrudging this trip for those who want or can afford it.
The only thing I will shout from the mountaintops is that THEY ARE NOT PILGRIMS/THIS IS NOT A PILGRIMAGE!
Must everything today be completely and utterly monetized and taken over by wealth and comfort? Can nothing be left to the simplicity of what the meaning of Pilgrim,/Pilgrimage is? Yes I know Kings and noblemen walked. Yes I know people were paid to walk for them to have their sins absolved. Yes I know the hundreds of other arguments about tolerance and inclusion. No although my personal opinion is these people should find somewhere else to vacation. Like he said the Grand Canyon. Yes you can't deny people the ability to make a living. You cannot exclude anyone from walking no matter what form their walk takes. Please I am not an idiot, I know! But as my friend so eloquently wrote to me and I say again there is a responsibility and a spirit of a TRUE Pilgrim. (yes I said it, True Pilgrim) It is sacred and most be continued in all its forms that include compassion, love and yes sacrifice. You know what, without sacrifice and knowing the true nature of sacrifice can you have the compassion and love for other Pilgrims when you are walking.
These companies are not giving you a pilgrim experience. Larger and larger numbers of people walking are tourists and looking for a cheap vacation.
TOURGRIMS
Please all I ask is that we look at this before the Camino becomes a spiritual Rodeo Drive.
I love the Camino and I love all Pilgrims.
Hope you all understand what I am trying to say. I probably could have said it in a lot less space but I have such a big damn mouth!
Buen Camino (I am too lazy to reread everything for typos).
What exactly is the problem?
Is anything the “tourgrims” are doing taking anything away from you or others? If there is littering, or damaging trees or mistreatment of others I could understand your agitation. Maybe it is a perceived attitude or claiming a status that they don’t “qualify” for? Is that worth burdening yourself with judgement of others?
Hallelujah my fellow pilgrim! I couldn't agree with you more. Anyone who embraces the real meaning of pilgrim or claims to be a "real" pilgrim, would never have written such a disparaging post about those of us who opt to make pilgrimage in this fashion. I truly feel sorry for this person and others who have claimed that such travelers like me haven't found their way. Well, this article is about me and I am hurt by such prejudice shared with other pilgrims. Who is anyone to judge anyone else's pilgrimage, their calling, their motivation, their means of travel. Personally I embrace all pilgrims, welcome them into my heart.I don't think I've read a single description of "the true pilgrim" posted on these forums, with the general sense that "in the past the pilgrimage was pure and now it is becoming debased" that would have applied to Chaucer's pilgrims and what is probably the greatest account of a medieval pilgrimage written in the English language (the language we use on these forums). While I may occasionally speak in a jocular fashion about "tourigrinos", that is just joking around. When speaking seriously, I would say that one becomes a pilgrim, not by one's mode of transit, not by what one chooses to carry, not even by one's choice of destination (are those who have walked from SJPP to Santiago still pilgrims if they come back and walk from Le Puy to SJPP with no intention of continuing to Santiago again?), but simply by declaring themselves pilgrims. If you think of yourself as a pilgrim and relate to people and your surroundings as one, however you travel and whatever your destination, that's all it takes to make you one in my books.
YMMV, of course.
Hallelujah my fellow pilgrim! I couldn't agree with you more. Anyone who embraces the real meaning of pilgrim or claims to be a "real" pilgrim, would never have written such a disparaging post about those of us who opt to make pilgrimage in this fashion. I truly feel sorry for this person and others who have claimed that such travelers like me haven't found their way. Well, this article is about me and I am hurt by such prejudice shared with other pilgrims. Who is anyone to judge anyone else's pilgrimage, their calling, their motivation, their means of travel. Personally I embrace all pilgrims, welcome them into my heart.
I understand your point and while you're entitled to your opinion just as the person who wrote the OP, I expressed how this post made me feel. If you're referring to my definition of a true pilgrim, isn't it all-encompassing? Doesn't it include everyone? Is it prejudiced?Let me gently ask: isn't your post, however well intentioned, guilty of the same judgement of the OP as you so rightly choose to reject?
Who said we don't have the same reverence for the Camino? Who said we lost anything?First off: I understand your concerns, born out of love and passion for the camino. As someone who has been set straight by this ancient path, I get that you can feel offended by those who do not treat it with at least some semblance of respect and maybe even reverence. But when all is said and done, the only thing I feel is: "Their loss. But there is still time."
I will find other roads to wander, where I can sense the grace I have uncovered for the first time on my walk to Santiago. For that discovery I will be forever grateful to the Way. And as to how the Way is twisting and turning at this point in time, Rebekah Scott, a prophet if ever there was one, has already foretold it: the Camino will survive us.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and frustrations @lt56ny
I think many of us at times may have shared some of your frustrations. I certainly did on my first Camino.
Now I don't let it bother me. Why? Because I realised that I cannot see into the hearts of those 'Tourigrinos' or know their backgrounds or circumstances. Sure there are the loud tour groups, but I found myself being too quick to judge them.
On that first Camino I set out to prove myself wrong about them.........
I stopped to talk to two middle aged ladies who were carrying tiny day packs. Their husbands were waiting for them at the next village with the 'support car'.
One of the husbands was blind and had dreamed of walking the Camino for so long, they went as a Group. His wife led him by the hand over the Pyrenees! The other husband drove the support car to pick up the blind man when he could go no further each day, and they would wait for their wives down the path somewhere.
That group were truer Pilgrims than me..........
Or the Bus Group, laughing and joking along the path. And there up ahead was their bus at the cafe! With their Cheerleader, an 85 old Nun who could not walk far but had organised the trip for them. I made a point of stopping to talk to some of them along the way. Delightful and devout people.........
Am I true Pilgrim? Who knows. I try to be. The Camino for me is a spiritual and sacred journey that I thank God each day for being able to undertake. I visit almost every church I pass and stop at every road side cross.
But......
I stay in private accommodations (I snore a lot)
I have massages (I carry injuries from training for my first Camino)
I visit a physio whenever I can (same reason)
A couple of times I might have to take a taxi ride, as walking a long distance on roads aggravates my injuries so much that it can end my Camino.
And I have been know to send my bag ahead because my Achilles Tendonitis got so bad I could barely walk that day...........
But in my heart I'm a pilgrim. And I think God shares that view as I have felt him urging me on at the times I felt like giving up........... I have shared one of those stories here.
Don't be too harsh on those Tourigrinos............ Maybe I'm one
Thank you!! I could hug you too!@lt56ny having read your post I went to look at the website of the tour company which seems to have led to your starting this thread. As far as I can tell from reading the site, at no point does the company itself describe its tours as pilgrimages, or its customers as pilgrims. It uses the words "tour", and "trip". It also provides some historical information about the Camino, and the background of the couple who own the company, which they seem to have started after many years of walking the Camino themselves. The word pilgrimage is used by individuals who have been on the company's tours - and reading the entire article to which your first post links (which is not actually the one you quote from), it is clear that the person writing it felt deeply about the experience and to them it was a pilgrimage, whatever the cost or accommodation. The "Day in the Life" article which you quote is by a different person who took the company's tour, and despite the language used in your quote (which seems to have so upset you), this person also seems to have been deeply affected by their journey.
I understand that what you find offensive is the cost and the apparent commercialisation of the Camino by such companies. But to make such a sweeping statement as "They are not pilgrims" - perhaps when you have time to re-read those people's descriptions of their experience and have calmed down a little, you might see that sometimes pilgrims do choose to go on expensive tours, and that despite the cost and type of accommodation, to them it is still a pilgrimage.
Thank you so much for sharing your point of view.Yes, I have read all the posts on this thread. You are clearly thinking deeply about this issue. My reply was specifically to your statement - in upper case, "shouted" as you say from the mountaintops - that the people who go on these tours are "not pilgrims". You are of course entitled to your opinion (although you didn't say "in my opinion they are not pilgrims") - in my opinion, none of us are in a position to judge the motivations, reasons or beliefs of others simply on the basis of what they pay for a tour.
Your later posts refer to disrespect. Going on a costly tour is not in itself disrespectful, any more than travelling cheaply and staying in albergues makes someone respectful (as we know, there are plenty of rude and disrespectful people in that category, and many of them also describe themselves as pilgrims!). I would never personally use the term "tourigrino", as I consider it a snide and superior term (dare I say disrespectful!) that lumps a whole lot of very different people into one category without knowing anything about them as individuals. Whether running a tour company is inherently disrespectful I couldn't say - I don't use tour companies myself and never have, but they have existed for a long time and will continue to exist where people are willing to pay, all over the world. Like some others who have responded above, I have met some very respectful, amazing people on the Camino who happened to be using a tour company for whatever reason. And have also encountered those who operate tours, including some members of this forum, who are deeply respectful and most definitely pilgrims themselves. And I've met some disrespectful, unpleasant people who are not in tour groups.
Respect (or disrespect) has very little to do with wealth or power. It has everything to do with giving people the benefit of the doubt, listening, and having compassion for those who choose to do things differently, whether that's using a tour company or starting one up (often as a way to keep spending time on the Camino while making a living). Misuse of wealth and power is real, and you're right about "a sense of rage that needs to be changed into action and engagement", but little tour companies like Duperier's are not the big bad guys.
I understand your point and while you're entitled to your opinion just as the person who wrote the OP, I expressed how this post made me feel. If you're referring to my definition of a true pilgrim, isn't it all-encompassing? Doesn't it include everyone? Is it prejudiced?
Well, how do you interpret this statement made in the OP?
"The only thing I will shout from the mountaintops is that THEY ARE NOT PILGRIMS/THIS IS NOT A PILGRIMAGE!"
This is not disparaging? Or prejudiced? I interpret this as a direct insult to all those who do NOT make pilgrimage as the OP does.
EOC
When I think of the ancient Pilgrims hardships my comparison is the modern day migrant/refugees from Latin America, Africa, etc to a promised land of North America, Europe. Albeit a journey of economical stability opposed to spiritual.In ancient times the pilgrimage was used as a form of punishment for minor crimes. During those times tens of thousands of pilgrims were sent off and more than half of them would die. They were killed by all sorts of things, robbers, wolfs, drowning and exhaustion. Being forced on a pilgrimage was almost a death sentence. Those high ranking clergy and nobles that sent out these pilgrims knew that they were unlikely to return. What they were really doing was handing over their punishment to god. If a pilgrim dies on his journey then god did not like him. Every pilgrim with his meager possessions relied on their good relationship with god in order to survive.
Now, a true pilgrim does not have to face wolves or robbers but still has to face the physical challenge, aches, pains and setbacks. A true pilgrim relies on his strength, intelligence and the blessing of god. A true pilgrim walks with an uncluttered mind, yellow arrows ahead and god 10’ behind him. A true pilgrim may not even know it but deep down –
“A true pilgrim puts themselves before the judgement of god.”
@MazzyI've been so excited about my trip but your post actually made me feel very sad. I am walking the Camino Frances in May and I don't think of myself as a pilgrim on a religious pilgrimage. I'm going on a grand adventure to Spain! All by myself with my backpack, and it's by far the biggest thing I've ever done in my life. I'm not able to complete the full camino but I'm still walking a long way, due to time constraints with work pressure, possibly starting from Burgos to Santiago. Probably not your intention but it feels as though you think the camino belongs only to you and religious pilgrims. I've seen a few Facebook posts lately saying similar things - taking the mickey out of people who are doing things like coming back drunk to albergues or singing as they walk. Labeling people "Tourgrinos" does seem judgmental to me. One man berated a woman who was so excited to share that she had booked a tour for the CF. He said something like "God will be your guide on the Camino. If you book a tour it's like saying you don't trust him." I can only imagine how that might have made her feel. Btw - my own journey is a purely spiritual one for my own reasons. I don't believe in god and I won't be wearing sackcloth and ashes either. Hopefully that doesn't show a "lack of respect." Just my 10c worth.
MI watched this a few years ago and have read some earlier accounts of walking the Camino that go back to the 1970's. Having walked myself in 2014, the contrast of what I experienced as compared to the descriptions of 20, 30 and 40 years previous is stark. Folks that I encountered described a much less commercialized Camino even just five or ten years before
In 1995 I was laid off from a job with a package that included six months pay and health insurance. It would have been the perfect time to take this pilgrimage had I known about it. I was younger, stronger and the walk may have had a more profound and positive influence on how I was to pursue the rest of my working life.
I'll always wonder what I missed on that simpler path
i agree and I couldn’t care less what someone does. A person who spends 4,000 Euros for 10 nights is no more a pilgrim or on a pilgrimage than a person can only prepare and eats a bologna on whir bread with mayonnaise every day is a chef or a lover of food.Perhaps one of the things we learn as a Pilgrim is to live and let live. We all have different ways of doing things.
These definitions are from the Cambridge Dictionary. When I went to get my Certificate to teach English as a Second Language, Cambridge University and their dictionary was referred to as the "keeper of the English Language"
The Camino IS a sacred place and to call yourself Pilgrim and to say you are on Pilgrimage have meaning and responsibility. There may be new aspects to draw on that encompass the meanings but the basics should never change.
Many were very loud and very drunk. I had never encountered this before. Obviously the rest of the way into Santiago I encountered these people
My young Swedish friend said they are NOT pilgrims they are Tourgrims and they are all over the place. We then had a very good discussion about what it really means to be a pilgrim and what pilgrimage is.
This ten day journey costs 3,950 Euros. I was completely and utterly offended by this.
The only thing I will shout from the mountaintops is that THEY ARE NOT PILGRIMS/THIS IS NOT A PILGRIMAGE!
Must everything today be completely and utterly monetized and taken over by wealth and comfort?
Can nothing be left to the simplicity of what the meaning of Pilgrim,/Pilgrimage is?
But as my friend so eloquently wrote to me and I say again there is a responsibility and a spirit of a TRUE Pilgrim. (yes I said it, True Pilgrim)
You know what, without sacrifice and knowing the true nature of sacrifice can you have the compassion and love for other Pilgrims when you are walking.
It is the journey not the destination.
but not belonging to a defined religion
I do think there is no meaning where one starts or finishes. I could care less.
You actually articulated what all other true pilgrims think!
Many people think that they need to suffer to be a "true pilgrim"
Although I do not consider myself a pilgrim
more than half of them would die
Well, maybe...but I'm not a "true pilgrim".Of course you are !!!
It's hardly an exercise in masochism.
You truly are my twinMy feet would not have agreed with that thought as they were yelling at me on the downhill grind into Zubiri ;-)
but not belonging to a defined religion - and all actors have to comply with a set of rules
I had to look up my post to see the context. It was an attempt to characterise this contemporary space - ie the whole long trails - that is claimed to be holy and sacred by some of those that define themselves as "spiritual but not religious" and have no intention or inclination to (re)enter the Christian faith. I personally simply don't grasp this idea. Someone can be on a holy journey of one kind or another but the road is secular. To me, holy paths are close to a sanctuary that are usually connected to rituals of the religion in question.Sorry, but this is a Catholic and Christian Pilgrimage -- the most unusual one of them all, from having a tradition since the Middle Ages of being completely open to non-Catholics and non-Christians, but the nature of it remains.
These definitions are from the Cambridge Dictionary. When I went to get my Certificate to teach English as a Second Language, Cambridge University and their dictionary was referred to as the "keeper of the English Language"
PILGRIM - a person who travels to a holy place as a religious act.
a person who makes a journey, often a long and difficult one, to a special place for religious reasons
PILGRIMAGE - a trip, often a long one, made to a holy place for religious reasons
a special journey made by a pilgrim
a visit to a place that is considered special, where you go to show your respect
I would like to address an issue that has bothered me from my very first Camino. But before I begin I would like to say I have made friends through this site. I respect what all of us are trying to accomplish here. I have gained useful information and have felt very good when I as well as when I see others give back to the Camino but imparting and soothing fears and misgivings of new Pilgrims and giving information that is needed by all. We always learn from each walk we take. I know that this forum strives to respect everyone and is tolerant to each persons ideas and as people say we all walk our own Camino. I have done 4 Caminos and have traveled over 4,000 kilometers. I have had great pain, great joy, great tranquility, met the greatest people on earth and had experiences that range from the mundane to the ridiculous to the profound.
I cannot tell you how much the Camino means to me and how much I respect its sacred space. I am writing this on the CF Forum as this path to Santiago has given me great happiness and now causes me great concern.
I have absolutely no problem with people who because of personal or physical concerns or have time constraints, ship backpacks, or take some bus rides, or walk shorter distances. I have no problem with people who have been lucky enough to find a way to take their love of the Camino and make it their home by opening Albergue or pensions, restaurants, or have Camino related businesses or podcasts. What Brendon Burke does or the Pilgrim House or Dan Mullins songs. ( I don't even know if he earns money from his music but I hope he does and I hope everyone who takes that Camino plunge is successful. I know no one is going to get rich materially but I am sure the spiritual rewards are tremendous.
But I think it is possible for all of us to express concerns without having to incur the wrath of others because a controversial topic that is heartfelt and but may not be perceived as tolerant by some. It is time for a learning experience for all of this when this happens. I know some may say this is your issue not the Camino, that you need to be more open and less judgmental. Well we are all walking around all day carrying judgements and issues no matter how hard we try not too. It is the human experience. So yes this is my issue. That is because of the following:
The Camino is a sacred place to me and to many others. I have met people who were making profound changes or decisions in their lives. I have met a man who had terminal cancer and was trying to make sense of the time left and how to spend it. I met a woman who lost her husband and 3 small children in a car accident and had attempted suicide more than once. Her friend took her on the Camino hoping she would find something to help to allow her to go on.
The Camino IS a sacred place and to call yourself Pilgrim and to say you are on Pilgrimage have meaning and responsibility. There may be new aspects to draw on that encompass the meanings but the basics should never change.
A friend who I wrote to about this, who is on our forum feels the same frustration that I do, but advised me to say nothing. But I can't help myself. I speak out to voice a concern but also I am always hoping to hear an argument that may change my mind and bring me some peace.
On my first Camino I met wonderful people. People who were walking with purpose (even though many like myself had no idea what that purpose was. We just knew we had to be there). They struggled with the full spectrum of pain from the physical to the spiritual. There were days even then almost 10 years ago that it was a little hard to find an albergue. But then we reached Sarria. My experience there is something I have never forgotten or gotten over. I usually leave early because I love walking in the early morning dawn. I arrived in Sarria early at my albergue (it was a private one) and was struck by seeing at least 20 backpacks neatly stacked against a wall. All brand new. About 20 minutes later Pilgrims started coming in. We were located on the west side of town and this albergue might have been the last in town at the time. Someone told me all the other places were already full. A little while after that I saw a few people coming in who were hobbled with blisters and other assorted ailments without a place to stay. I called two friends who both had injuries and offered my bed but they said they were staying at a hotel off the camino and would taxi there and back. About 7PM the people started coming in who had reservations and had their backpacks against that wall. Many were very loud and very drunk. I had never encountered this before. Obviously the rest of the way into Santiago I encountered these people and it made me question what is the meaning and definition of a Peregrino.
I recently walked the Norte and for a couple of nights met a few older women who stayed in the same albergues that I did. I was walking with another American and a Swede at the time. We all talked the first morning at breakfast and I mentioned to them how much I respected them walking the Norte as the hills are really intense. Very steep and very long. One laughed and said the hills are not bad at all. It turns out that we found out after a few days that they took taxis up every single big hill on the Camino. I told my friends that night as a half/joke, what have Pilgrims become. The word is losing its meaning. My young Swedish friend said they are NOT pilgrims they are Tourgrims and they are all over the place. We then had a very good discussion about what it really means to be a pilgrim and what pilgrimage is.
A few weeks ago I heard a podcast with a "Pilgrim" that had walked 10 days on the Camino. He was on a luxury tour of the Camino. He talked about what the Camino did for him and I do not doubt his words or his sincerity. He wrote an article entitled "A day in the life of an Authentic Journeys Pilgrim:
"Fast forward to present day and you’ll find contemporary pilgrims from all walks of life and from every corner of the world traveling along this same storied path however, while some walk in the traditional way carrying their worldly possessions in their backpacks, bunk down in community albergues and dine from the pilgrim’s menu; there are others who opt for a more luxurious and convenient pace that includes deluxe accommodations and gourmet dining, plus the convenience of having luggage transported from place to place. And at the end of the day, the promise of a little pampering from your personal massage therapist beckons." This ten day journey costs 3,950 Euros. I was completely and utterly offended by this. I am not begrudging this trip for those who want or can afford it.
The only thing I will shout from the mountaintops is that THEY ARE NOT PILGRIMS/THIS IS NOT A PILGRIMAGE!
Must everything today be completely and utterly monetized and taken over by wealth and comfort? Can nothing be left to the simplicity of what the meaning of Pilgrim,/Pilgrimage is? Yes I know Kings and noblemen walked. Yes I know people were paid to walk for them to have their sins absolved. Yes I know the hundreds of other arguments about tolerance and inclusion. No although my personal opinion is these people should find somewhere else to vacation. Like he said the Grand Canyon. Yes you can't deny people the ability to make a living. You cannot exclude anyone from walking no matter what form their walk takes. Please I am not an idiot, I know! But as my friend so eloquently wrote to me and I say again there is a responsibility and a spirit of a TRUE Pilgrim. (yes I said it, True Pilgrim) It is sacred and most be continued in all its forms that include compassion, love and yes sacrifice. You know what, without sacrifice and knowing the true nature of sacrifice can you have the compassion and love for other Pilgrims when you are walking.
These companies are not giving you a pilgrim experience. Larger and larger numbers of people walking are tourists and looking for a cheap vacation.
TOURGRIMS
Please all I ask is that we look at this before the Camino becomes a spiritual Rodeo Drive.
I love the Camino and I love all Pilgrims.
Hope you all understand what I am trying to say. I probably could have said it in a lot less space but I have such a big damn mouth!
Buen Camino (I am too lazy to reread everything for typos).
A four line verse from a probably 12th century poem is often quoted as proof
I felt the same way about walking at the CAF. Just walked in Norte and it was wonderful quiet and there was a lot of solitude. I do love walking the Camino Frances I felt the same way about walking at the CAF. Just walked in Norte and it was wonderful quiet and there was a lot of solitude. I do love walking the Camino Frances and decided the best time to walk it will be in the winter. So my next Camino will either be a November December 1 or February March. I think it’s a great challenge for me and will be very interesting to be walking in the dead of winter especially if I go in February.Somehow, I agree with you. After walking the French Way in 2012, for the first time (3 times after that). There is no way i would walk that Camino Again. Currently is a tourist destination.
This year I walked the Camino de Invierno, and although the services are very slim, and it is a very lonely Camino. I LOVED IT!!!!
No drunks, no loud stereos, no people trying to get in after the albergue is closed..... Just some incredible times walking alone with the rain hitting your poncho, the issues with the mud, the need to plan for supplies when you have 35 km the next day.... All of these things is what makes the Camino unforgettable.
To each its own, but to call yourself a Peregrino when you are not really "DOING THE PILGRIMAGE", it is truly a misrepresentation.
To each its own, I could think of many tourist destinations to go on vacation.
Currently, I would not recommend the French Camino to anyone that really wants to experience El Camino de Santiago, i think with time, when people get tired of the trash, the lines, and the multiple "party people" the Camino Frances will regain "again" the incredible experience it used to be.
Buen Camino PEREGRINOS!!!
Texasguy
I agree with you I think everyone has a right to walk the Camino. But I also believe completely that people who were drunk, loud in the middle of the night, rude and selfish have no place anywhere when they have to share accommodations with others. Do what you like but at least have the decency and courtesy to be respectful of those around you.Do "real" pilgrims carry an ATM card to get cash from a stocked account somewhere, whenever they need it? How should Catholics who believe that St. James is buried in the cathedral in SdC feel about those of other religious faiths co-opting this Christian pilgrimage by claiming it as their own? Do real pilgrims fly and bus to their starting point or do they walk from their front door? Do they compare their expensive tech-wear on internet message boards? Do they refuse to speak Spanish while walking across Spain, only really interacting with people who speak their own (foreign) language?
Give up. Don't tell us what a pilgrim is or where the line is drawn. Even drunk, loud people who ride taxis up hills, annoying as they may be, have as much right to be walking the Camino as those who are fighting cancer.
As frustrating as it can be, it is not our job to decide who qualifies to call themselves what.
Jill
(who earlier posted a thread called "I Am Not A Pilgrim" that I think finally got shut down, too)
I also know what it is like to lose something to change that has been very dearly loved - as perhaps many on this forum experience sadness about the way the Camino used to be? I grew up beside the Abel Tasman National Park in NZ and spent many weekends for years exploring there but being there now that the rest of the world has beaten a path to it is painful so I don't go any more.
True anwhere, not just on the Camino.I agree with you I think everyone has a right to walk the Camino. But I also believe completely that people who were drunk, loud in the middle of the night, rude and selfish have no place anywhere when they have to share accommodations with others. Do what you like but at least have the decency and courtesy to be respectful of those around you.
Members will be minded that this is a topic that has led, often, to the closure of the thread.
@lt56ny 's post is heartfelt and passionate.
I'll posit a slightly different view; offered to me by Chico, a volunteer Hospitalero at Albergue parroquial San Nicolás de Flüe. "There are no tourists on the Caminos, just some pilgrims who have not yet found their Way".
My first Camino was 1989 and my second was 2016. And I really enjoyed my second Camino. Sure there were more pilgrims. A lot more! And there was also a lot more infrastructure. I appreciated the pilgrims that I met and the infrastructure that I benefited from. Not that I didn't enjoy the first. But change isn't always in a better or worse direction. Sometimes it is just in a different direction and, while we can be sad about things that are different in our route (or try different routes which may be more like what we remember) we can also appreciate what we see in the changed route.Very much what I feel about the Camino Frances. I walked it first in 1990. Then a second time in 2002. And most recently in 2016. Far too much of my time in that third journey was taken up with sadness and occasionally rage at what it has become since my first walk. Time to let it go and let others find what joy they can in it. I now look in other places for the things which I treasured on my first Camino.
I agree with you I think everyone has a right to walk the Camino. But I also believe completely that people who were drunk, loud in the middle of the night, rude and selfish have no place anywhere when they have to share accommodations with others. Do what you like but at least have the decency and courtesy to be respectful of those around you.
Very true, and many of our national parks in the US are becoming incredibly crazy busy, not just the camino. We took our kids to many of them in the late 80's-90's...Glacier, Yosemite, to name two of a dozen we visited. We've been going back in recent years. If you don't start your day really early, forget getting a parking spot unless you use park shuttles. The difference is incredible, and not in a good way!True anwhere, not just on the Camino.
The situation is the same in the busier Canadian national parks, in particular in Banff, which is the closest and easiest to reach national park from Calgary. Fortunately for me, this extreme busyness only exists within two days walk of the nearest roads. Once I have spent two days in camping spaces, they disappear and I can wild camp by myself. Depending on where I am, I may have the wilderness entirely to myself and the animals for a week or more: Paradise! But you really would not want to go there, of course.Very true, and many of our national parks in the US are becoming incredibly crazy busy, not just the camino. We took our kids to many of them in the late 80's-90's...Glacier, Yosemite, to name two of a dozen we visited. We've been going back in recent years. If you don't start your day really early, forget getting a parking spot unless you use park shuttles. The difference is incredible, and not in a good way!
Do "real" pilgrims carry an ATM card to get cash from a stocked account somewhere, whenever they need it? How should Catholics who believe that St. James is buried in the cathedral in SdC feel about those of other religious faiths co-opting this Christian pilgrimage by claiming it as their own? Do real pilgrims fly and bus to their starting point or do they walk from their front door? Do they compare their expensive tech-wear on internet message boards? Do they refuse to speak Spanish while walking across Spain, only really interacting with people who speak their own (foreign) language?
Nor did they have an online avatar that said: “We’re doomed. Doomed!” as we see today. Although ... perhaps a fitting motto for those who went on a long journey to seek eternal salvation in SdC.“In the old days”, people didn’t fly to Spain every year or every other year to walk another camino
Nor did they have an online avatar that said: “We’re doomed. Doomed!” as we see today. Although ... perhaps a fitting motto for those who went on a long journey to seek salvation in SdC.
Yeah, the ATM question might have been a bit out there. It just occurs to me, when people talk about what a "real" pilgrim is, that for many centuries, this trek was uncomfortable, insecure and even dangerous. My guess is that there had to be a lot of faith to take on such an arduous journey. No one nowadays is replicating that..
So JP, how are you doing with those handmade leather sandals, the water gourd, the hair lice and the chronic tooth infection? Hope the Templar Knights are watching out for you!
Admittedly, that "low key and modest volunteer-led" revival of the Camino was, itself, very different from the medieval pilgrimage it was attempting to revive. The size and growth of commercial infrastructure we are seeing now is probably more similar to the medieval pilgrimage, which had large numbers and a bustling, commercial infrastructure, than the low key route that you first walked. We can complain about the success, but it is just what the people who first painted the yellow arrows were after.So you recognise it!I am working my way through a list of grumpy middle-aged and elderly Scotsmen and choosing one to fit my current mood.....
Certainly the huge increase in numbers is not to my taste. I am intensely shy and private and solitude is an enormous pleasure and source of strength for me. Hard to find on the Camino Frances these days. But my unease is not simply to do with numbers. There has been a marked change in the "flavour" of the Camino. What was initially a low-key and modest volunteer-led project has become a large scale commercial enterprise. Contact with local people now is predominantly linked to business of one kind or another: bar owners, shopkeepers, hospitaleros and social interaction is mostly with other pilgrims. From being a largely theoretical idea that barely touched the lives of the places it passed through - little more than a few painted arrows and the occasional refugio - the Camino has become a large self-absorbed entity in its own right which dominates in all but the largest of towns. In the early years of the Camino revival the low public profile meant that there was a great deal of common ground between those who walked: essentially you had to be actively religious, a history buff or a keen long-distance walker to have even heard of the Camino much less decide to walk it. It was widely understood that the pilgrimage was essentially a Catholic exercise but one which others like myself were free to join. That distinctly religious flavour has largely been lost and replaced in the main with a focus on personal spiritual concerns and an eclectic 'pick & mix' feelgood mysticism. The Caminos are now extremely well-known internationally and regularly feature on newspaper travel "bucket lists" and are sold as package holidays by mainstream travel companies. Much of that sits very uneasily with my personal interpretation of "pilgrimage".
JabbaPapa: "As far as I'm concerned, a "real pilgrim" is any Pilgrim who has understood enough about his or her own Camino to be able to explain it, or at least start to explain it, to others."
I don't feel the need to explain my Camino to anyone. I am all ears if you want to tell me about yours, but it isn't required, in my opinion.
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