Warning for crossing of Pyrenees

[domigee]

sorry the link is in Spanish but I'm sure you clever people can get translation on google

http://www.lavozdegalicia.es/notici...umbres-pineraicas/00031452617365064487322.htm

Basically, from 1st November until 31st March, the Napoleon route is closed because deemed too dangerous.

 

[Americanperegrino]

I believe by special permission this route can be used. If I remember correctly, you need to demonstrate technical ability and have the correct gear. Too many folks dying otherwise.

 

[Gianni3333]

Just out of curiosity does anyone know the snow levels in the Pyrenees?


Gianni

 

[Americanperegrino]

1430m

 

[Dan the Man]

It looks like the closure is an "order"from Spain.
I have translated the article and posted it in 2 parts in the attachment below

 

[grayland]

I believe by special permission this route can be used. If I remember correctly, you need to demonstrate technical ability and have the correct gear. Too many folks dying otherwise.[/QUOTE

I walked over two weeks ago. I am pretty certain that you are wrong on your post. There are no exceptions according to the Pilgrim Office in SJPdP
The signage blocking the Napoleon Rout is very specific.
I would have walked the Napoleon route if it were possible. I ha The heavy rain on the Valcarlos route made it a challenge as well.

 

[zzotte]

Well done, no need to endanger the rescuers, is unfortunately that because of a few inresponsibles the rest pays, not that I'm planning to climb the Pyrenees in the winter mind you but I hope that the special permits works so the experienced can enjoy it.

Zzotte

 

[t2andreo]

BOTTOM LINE:

Before 31 March, plan on taking the Valcarlos Route.

It appears to me, from Dan's translation that:

• Too many people have died, or have had to be rescued over the years, and the issue is becoming more critical, as rescue is getting more expensive to local governments.
• This issue is no longer permissive, or optional.
• It is now an order from the Spanish government, I do not know if provincial or federal level (does it really matter)?
• All pilgrims and other hikers crossing the Pyrenees during this time period are directed (ordered) to take the Valcarlos Route.
• Only documented, experienced winter hikers, with appropriate winter hiking gear, will be allowed, under special permission to walk the Napoleon Pass.

Did I miss anything of importance? Dan, thanks for the translation.

I hope this helps.

 

[C clearly]

I believe by special permission this route can be used. If I remember correctly, you need to demonstrate technical ability and have the correct gear. Too many folks dying otherwise.

Here is an earlier thread from when the closure was announced.

The posted articles give discussion of the reasons for the closure, which include the facts that many pilgrims are unprepared and some have died. However, I have not seen any elaboration on conditions whereby a special permit might be issued. The articles say that no one is to use that route unless express permission has been granted by the Navarra Emergency Agency. I doubt that the special permits are meant for miscellaneous individual pilgrims (however experienced) who come along. I am just making an educated guess here, but that is probably a clause in the regulation that allows, for example, for a mountaineering association to plan a group expedition and apply for a permit well in advance. In other words, the regulation is flexible enough to allow for exceptions under special circumstances.

 

[Dan the Man]

BOTTOM LINE:

Before 31 March, plan on taking the Valcarlos Route.

It appears to me, from Dan's translation that:

• Too many people have died, or have had to be rescued over the years, and the issue is becoming more critical, as rescue is getting more expensive to local governments.
• This issue is no longer permissive, or optional.
• It is now an order from the Spanish government, I do not know if provincial or federal level (does it really mater)?
• All pilgrims and other hikers crossing the Pyrenees during this time period are directed (ordered) to take he Valcarlos Route.
• Only documented, experienced winter hikers, with appropriate winter hiking gear will be allowed, under special permission to walk the Napoleon Pass.

Did I miss anything of importance? Dan, thanks for the translation.

I hope this helps.

I think you got it all

 

[t2andreo]

Thanks!

 

[grayland]

Two weeks ago when I walked past the "option" point or junction between the two routes... There were large signs advising that the route was closed... No options. I could also see some smaller signs further along the Napoleon route. It looked like it was taken very serious. There was a Guardia car close by but I don't think it was monitoring the pilgrims.
Surprising (to me) there were about 18 in the SJPdP
Muni. Some others in hotels.
Many more than I expected in mid-January. Most, if not all, except me were first time walkers.

 

[Kanga]

It concerns me that many first time pilgrims are setting off so early. Perhaps it is the mild weather. Or maybe indicative of an increase in the numbers overall.

 

[dougfitz]

It looks like the closure is an "order"from Spain.
I have translated the article and posted it in 2 parts in the attachment below

There appears to be a good English rendition of the press release here on the American Pilgrims on the Camino website. Most of it is preamble, the important bits are in the last paragraph. http://www.americanpilgrims.com/cam...ute_overview_files/Napoleon_route_closure.pdf

 

[karen 2016]

It concerns me that many first time pilgrims are setting off so early. Perhaps it is the mild weather. Or maybe indicative of an increase in the numbers overall.

Kanga, You are correct about many first time pilgrims, myself included, are most likely starting
off so early in the season. I 1st thought that early April would have less pilgrims walking and that the weather
would be cooler. I live in Western USA and we have had no rain or snow for several years so one forgets that
it is not the same in other parts of the World. And weather can change!!!!!
This is a very good lesson for me to start the Camino with. Be ready to change your route and plans, be flexible.
And Kanga, thank you for all your good thoughts
and information you give us in the Forum.

 

[Mike Trebert]

Soooo disappointing! I'll be leaving SJPDP just 5 days before the March 31st deadline. Was looking forward to the scenic Napoleon route through the hills. But if it's dangerous, it's dangerous.

 

[david malta]

And this is a new danger:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tures-appear-abominable-snowman-Pyrenees.html

Looks like he's heading towards the Route Napoleon

 

[domigee]

And this is a new danger:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tures-appear-abominable-snowman-Pyrenees.html

Looks like he's heading towards the Route Napoleon

 

[mspath]

The so-called snowman was spotted near Formigal so it might be heading SW to Canfranc and the camino Aragones. Get those snowballs ready!

 

[navarro]

Just out of curiosity does anyone know the snow levels in the Pyrenees?


Gianni[/QUOT

1430m

700-900 m on Sunday Morning

 

[domigee]

700-900 m on Sunday Morning

It figures, I flew over the Pyrenees last week and it looked like the Alps, all white!

 

[Thornley]

If anyone thinks Valcarlos is less a walk than over the top then they are in for a rude of wakening.
Staying on the road after Valcarlos will be very tiring if this is a one day walk to RON.
If you enter the forrest floor and there has been rain or its raining then you will wish for the route over the top very quickly.

Roncesvalles should be the starting point before the 1/4.
* My t/shirt , sold in Santiago [by the spanish] in that lovely dark blue that has faded considerably still has Roncesvalles as the starting point not StJPP.

 

[Deleted member 34316]

I am afraid that in the text of the article there is no mention of a special permission for the "experienced winter hikers". Who would be in charge of judging what is a "sufficient" experience and what is not? Also, please don't forget that walking the Napoleon Route you are actually crossing the border between France and Spain, and if this pass is officialy closed between November and April, the Border Police can simply start shooting at you without warning (just kidding )

 

[t2andreo]

Fine by me. You "pays yer money and takes your chances... "

Also, no one is going to shoot at you intentionally. Heck, no European nation is presently defending territorial integrity from any invasion using any effective method, let alone shooting at pilgrims walking on a closed route. The only way you are going to get shot at is if you are in the wrong place during a legal hunting season. I have never heard of a pilgrim being shot.

I would recommend that, if you do try to ignore the admonition that the route is officially closed for safety reasons due to bad weather, that you carry NOK information. This will enable whoever finds you, if you fail to make it safely, to can notify your next of kin.

I originally commented on the sense of what the translation said. Word parsing, spin and "lawyering" are among the very small group of skills not usually found or appreciated along the Camino. It does not help to wordsmith or debate the salient point. I will NOT debate the matter. I was trying to make the matter plain.

You are correct that there is no official process for applying for permission to cross during the closed period. But that is not really the point. The pass is closed until 31 March, unless the authorities decide otherwise. The St. Jean Pied de pert Pilgrim Office at 39 Rue de Citadelle will have this information when you check in.

I hope this helps.

 

[Tincatinker]

I have never heard of a pilgrim being shot.

Our good friend @tyrrek might have a different view on that eventuality, but thats not pertinent to this debate. Context is everything. @t2andreo is absolutely correct, and I use the word in its absolute meaning, There is no process for applying for permission to cross the Route Napoleon when it is 'closed'. There is a process in place by which the Emergency Agency of Navarre may declare the route 'open'. Presumably they will do that if the prevailing weather conditions at the time suggest that it is and will be safe for Pilgrims to avail themselves of the route.

There is no provision by which 'hiking clubs', 'mountaineering societies', or collectives of aspiring suicides can apply for a permit to attempt the Napoleon. Why would there be? La Route Napoleon, a branch and by no means the prescribed route, of the Camino de Santiago is closed between the dates 1 November 2015 and 31 March 2016 unless an authority, in this case the EAN declares otherwise.

Meanwhile Pyrenean Bear Hunters, Yetis and Orujo smugglers romp the mountains with impunity. But they are (probably) not trying to get to Santiago.

 

[t2andreo]

Thank you, kind sir...

 

[navarro]

I believe by special permission this route can be used. If I remember correctly, you need to demonstrate technical ability and have the correct gear. Too many folks dying otherwise.

There must not be special permission or exceptions. There is an alternanive and safier route. Firemen, police and other people risk their lives to save people that dont follow rules. It cost a lot of money and rarely people pay for a rescue.

 

[Thornley]

It concerns me that many first time pilgrims are setting off so early. Perhaps it is the mild weather. Or maybe indicative of an increase in the numbers overall.

There must not be special permission or exceptions. There is an alternanive and safier route. Firemen, police and other people risk their lives to save people that dont follow rules. It cost a lot of money and rarely people pay for a rescue.

I can guarantee you that the insurance cover in Oz would be nil if the pass was closed.
Same as running with the bulls.
They love it when you take an unsafe option .
Buyer beware lads.

 

[C clearly]

There is no provision by which 'hiking clubs', 'mountaineering societies'... can apply for a permit to attempt the Napoleon. Why would there be?

I was the person who clouded the discussion by introducing this idea. As I understand it, the regulation said that no one was permitted to go that route "without express permission of the Navarra Emergency Agency", which suggests that permission might sometime be given. I was trying to counter the suggestion that one could get a permit if one arrived properly prepared. I suggested (foolishly perhaps ) a hypothetical case that was clearly different from individual pilgrims getting permits and might explain why that exception was written into the law.

I completely agree that for our purposes, the route is simply closed during that period and any other period that the Emergency Agency declares.

 

[Sue Blue Mountains]

If anyone thinks Valcarlos is less a walk than over the top then they are in for a rude of wakening.
Staying on the road after Valcarlos will be very tiring if this is a one day walk to RON.
If you enter the forrest floor and there has been rain or its raining then you will wish for the route over the top very quickly.

Roncesvalles should be the starting point before the 1/4.
* My t/shirt , sold in Santiago [by the spanish] in that lovely dark blue that has faded considerably still has Roncesvalles as the starting point not StJPP.

As I'll be walking prior to end of March I guess I'll be walking the Valcarlos route. Interested to know what you meant by your comment about the forrest and the rain.

 

[SophiaVila]

On the Valcarlos route:
Is it just road-walking and no views at all?
How many km is this route (to Roncesvalles)?
I am considering starting in Roncesvalles instead of SJPdP as I am going before 31. march. Is this what you would recommend?
Thanks xx

 

[mspath]

On the Valcarlos route:
Is it just road-walking and no views at all?
How many km is this route (to Roncesvalles)?
I am considering starting in Roncesvalles instead of SJPdP as I am going before 31. march. Is this what you would recommend?
Thanks xx

In no sense is the Valcarlos route only road walking or without views! For a good idea of what it is do read this earlier Forum thread -- https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...svalles-–-in-praise-of-the-lower-route.16075/

This is the oldest route passing through the mountains and now the only route which is open until April 1.

Happy planning and Buen camino!

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

On the Valcarlos route:
Is it just road-walking and no views at all?
How many km is this route (to Roncesvalles)?
I am considering starting in Roncesvalles instead of SJPdP as I am going before 31. march. Is this what you would recommend?
Thanks xx

Hi Sophia, my wife walked the Valcarlos route in 2013 and she loved it.
Wish you well and a Buen Camino, Peter.

 

[Thornley]

As I'll be walking prior to end of March I guess I'll be walking the Valcarlos route. Interested to know what you meant by your comment about the forrest and the rain.

Hi Sue ,
We walked from Wentworth Falls a few years ago along the valley floor.
Some sections are similar on the Valcarlos route.
If i was walking in March i would stay a few extra hours in STJPP [not leave early or even after lunch] and stop at Valcarlos .
Its a peaceful picturesque walk to Valcarlos via Arneguy and Ondarolle regardless of the weather.
It will be misty and if so beautiful , its around 12km and will take 3hours.
There are great CR's available and a nice albergue with a nice cafe on the road leaving town , just around the bend at end of village.

If its raining heavily or has been previously its better to use the road from there to RON
Last year we stayed on the road for about 10km until the last turn off into the forrest [ you will see a water fountain ] and then its a 2km rocky/steep path into Ron. We selected this way Sue because the temp was going to be high 30c by 11am and we wanted to finish in Burguette early.
We had previously walked the valley floor which is beautiful but it can be longish/hard if there has been heavy rain. The road is also surrounded by lovely scenery.
We were also comfortable as this was a **sunday** and the traffic was nil except for the tourist bus and taxis transferring packs and or pilgrims from STJPP to RON.and we had one pack [ HRH's] taken by Jacotrans which made her walk a fraction easier as the road does climb .

Play it by ear where in STJPP and if in a group will be very enjoyable.
Buen Camino and safe travels,

 

[Thomas Fitzgerald]

This is the notification the Pilgrims office gave me on February 10 which calls for 12000 euro fine for going over the Napoleon route. They could not be more clear or explicit that it is forbidden .

 

[Thornley]

This is the notification the Pilgrims office gave me on February 10 which calls for 12000 euro fine for going over the Napoleon route. They could not be more clear or explicit that it is forbidden .View attachment 24060View attachment 24061

Should end all discussion on same from now on.

 

[Americanperegrino]

Does anyone have info on what " except for special permit" is. Where can we get the requirements are for the Special Permit.

 

[7wood]

The sign says the route is closed from 1 Nov.to 31 March. What is it that people can't understand.

 

[Americanperegrino]

The notice says "Except for special permit" what is it you don't understand. Was my question not specific enough. Clearly, there is a Special Permit available from Navarre Emergency Agency, I'm asking if anyone knows where this info can be found. Maybe you're unaware that many routes, dangerous routes, are closed EXCEPT for Special Permits issues by the local authority. Everest, Yosemite Half Dome (winter), John Muir Trail, K2, etc.

 

[Mark Lee]

The sign says the route is closed from 1 Nov.to 31 March. What is it that people can't understand.

Seems like they don't understand that if their foolhardy posteriors get stuck whilst unnecessarily walking over the Pyrenees during terrible weather, there will be people who have to risk their own lives (not to mention the monetary expense) to save said foolhardy posteriors. A rather egocentric way of thinking.
The Napoleon is closed during that time period. Take the ValCarlos. There. Problem solved.

 

[Americanperegrino]

I'm not trying to get into a big argument, but. You do understand that some folks actually like to hike technical routes? I named a few up top. Some folks enjoy the challenge of mountaineering. Clearly you don't, so, I wouldn't suggest you look any further into the Permit Process for the Napoleon Route in winter cause it isn't for you. We all need to know our limitations. But, to refer to others who do seek to mountaineer as "foolhardy" and "egocentric" is way out of line and has no room on this forum.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

The Napoleon is hardly a technical route, if that is what you like my guess is that you will be disappointed. But you can still get in trouble over it in winter even if it is not technical.

 

[Mark Lee]

"Foolhardy" and "egocentric" were terms not directed towards any specific member of this forum, or any specific person anywhere. So difficult to imagine anybody would be offended by it.
To those for whom the shoes fits out there, anywhere, they know who they are and I am unapologetic as I have been present when those who didn't know their limitations were recovered in a less than desirable way.

 

[Deleted member 34316]

The permits are issued for the locals who have their fincas (land) in this area.
I hope it helps.

 

[Americanperegrino]

The Naploleon Route might not be Technical using YDS/NCSS, however, the Navarre Rescue may require Ice/snow traversing standards or UIAA qualification standards and/or apply them to the Permit Process. I'm just trying to find out IF anyone has this info.
Thanks Arthur!!

 

[Thornley]

The Naploleon Route might not be Technical using YDS/NCSS, however, the Navarre Rescue may require Ice/snow traversing standards or UIAA qualification standards and/or apply them to the Permit Process. I'm just trying to find out IF anyone has this info.
Thanks Arthur!!

Seeing YOU are walking in May of this year Arthur whats your problem?
Seeing you COULD have started there in Oct in 2012 then don't worry mate.

We normally don't worry too much about STJPP because we start somewhere further back on the GR65 and normally cross @ Samport and that my friend is a challenge . The other challenge Arthur is when in Leon , head North to Oviedo and that my friend is an even bigger challenge.

 

[Americanperegrino]

I'm not Arthur. I was thanking Arthur for his information that actually was responsive to my question. Look up a couple of posts you'll see what I mean. Yes, I'm walking in May this year. However, maybe I'll walk in December this year as well.

 

[Thornley]

I'm not Arthur. I was thanking Arthur for his information that actually was responsive to my question. Look up a couple of posts you'll see what I mean. Yes, I'm walking in May this year. However, maybe I'll walk in December this year as well.

Apologies for the Arthur bit.
Glad you accepted my advice re Samport
Hope you accept the advice of the locals in STJPP re December and the path over the top.
Spoke to a hotel owner 2 days into the way.
Martin Sheen stayed at his place 99% of the filming of his movie.
Just this year we walked into the empty bar @ RON and woe and behold there was his photo which indicated he stayed there..........which HE did not.
I find the same with St JPP Peregrino its not the original way and is not the be all end all of the camino. If in December walk the forest way from Bayonne to Pamplona.......beautiful and no trains into the mountain.
Good luck and apologies.

 

[Deleted member 34316]

No problem! I was just trying to bring some peace because the discussion was getting too hot!
I am from Narnia so I know all about snow
I walked many trails covered in the snow, and the one I particularly liked was called the French Pass, even if it was veeeeeery far away from France. The snow never melts there!

Buen Camino! Thank you for respecting the local laws!

 

[7wood]

I'm not trying to get into a big argument, but. You do understand that some folks actually like to hike technical routes? I named a few up top. Some folks enjoy the challenge of mountaineering. Clearly you don't, so, I wouldn't suggest you look any further into the Permit Process for the Napoleon Route in winter cause it isn't for you. We all need to know our limitations. But, to refer to others who do seek to mountaineer as "foolhardy" and "egocentric" is way out of line and has no room on this forum.

Ignore the sign just bring a spare €17,000 with you in case you have to be rescued

 

[Lynda t]

It's tough enough when the weather turns bad in Spring. Usually no climbing ropes needed for the technical though.

 

[Thornley]

It's tough enough when the weather turns bad in Spring. Usually no climbing ropes needed for the technical though.

On the second or third day [ we prefer third] from Le Puy [GR65] the climbing ropes are a godsend and if raining then they are a must.
Most will know what i mean and maybe someone will post a photo of steps and rail.

 

[Texas Walker]

Our good friend @tyrrek might have a different view on that eventuality, but thats not pertinent to this debate. Context is everything. @t2andreo is absolutely correct, and I use the word in its absolute meaning, There is no process for applying for permission to cross the Route Napoleon when it is 'closed'. There is a process in place by which the Emergency Agency of Navarre may declare the route 'open'. Presumably they will do that if the prevailing weather conditions at the time suggest that it is and will be safe for Pilgrims to avail themselves of the route.

There is no provision by which 'hiking clubs', 'mountaineering societies', or collectives of aspiring suicides can apply for a permit to attempt the Napoleon. Why would there be? La Route Napoleon, a branch and by no means the prescribed route, of the Camino de Santiago is closed between the dates 1 November 2015 and 31 March 2016 unless an authority, in this case the EAN declares otherwise.

Meanwhile Pyrenean Bear Hunters, Yetis and Orujo smugglers romp the mountains with impunity. But they are (probably) not trying to get to Santiago.

It's not such an unusual thing for a high mountain road or trail to be closed for the winter. The time we drove up to Montana--got there in JUNE!--the Going to the Sun Highway at Glacier National Park was scheduled to open the next day, but because of new snow the opening was delayed for several more days instead. It was announced on the evening news, but it wasn't regarded as such a surprise that the road had been closed for winter, just that there had been a delay in the opening. And if the people we visited weren't living in reasonable day trip distance, the local news wouldn't even have noticed.

 

[LindaS]

Just out of curiosity does anyone know the snow levels in the Pyrenees?


Gianni

I see you are from Santa Rosa. So am I and am walking the Camino Frances out of SJPP on June 10.

 

[SuperGirl]

I’m about to start Camino from St Jean tomorrow. It’s clear and sunny. Wish the Pyrenees way was open. It’s one of the best parts! It’s a shame they don’t open and close depending on the weather as it’s a super mild winter

 

[lindam]

Just out of curiosity does anyone know the snow levels in the Pyrenees?


Gianni

Do you meant the current depth of the snow in the Pyrenees? I can only imagine that it is still quite significant as Spain had an historic storm a couple of weeks which resulted in considerable snowfall in the mountains north of Barcelona.

 

[stratophile]

It’s a shame they don’t open and close depending on the weather as it’s a super mild winter

I've done a lot of mountain hiking, including winter treks. One thing you learn is how fast conditions can change in the mountains (even in summer, let alone winter). It might be super-mild but an unexpected storm can hit the upper mountains with virtually zero notice. If you aren't experienced in such conditions and equipped for them it can turn deadly shockingly fast. Erring on the side of caution in the mountains is always recommended. The risk factors can be very deceptive.

 

[RJM]

I’m about to start Camino from St Jean tomorrow. It’s clear and sunny. Wish the Pyrenees way was open. It’s one of the best parts! It’s a shame they don’t open and close depending on the weather as it’s a super mild winter

The Valcarlos route is nice. I do not know why it is not more popular.
As far as safety on the Napoleon route this time of year, without a doubt erring on the side of caution and closing it to pilgrims is the right thing to do.