Villafranca Manifesto: Camino Future?

Olivares · Dec 22, 2014

Regarding the Manifesto—first thing I love about it is the fact that it aims to preserve Elias Valina’s legacy. This man should be canonized if you ask me.
THE CREDENTIAL
1. Wholeheartedly agree with the concept of ONE OFFICIAL CREDENTIAL. Much like a country passport, there should ONE issuing organization (i.e. the Fraternity).
2. A prospective pilgrim must fill out a form to obtain this credential. This form will have a list of rights & responsibilities. Once the Pilgrim signs it and sends it, it is the only way to obtain this one official credential. A processing fee is involved to cover mailing costs.
3. Pilgrims with the Official credential get priority at albergues. Simple as that.
THE COMPOSTELA
1. Minimum Required distance: LEON TO SANTIAGO. Otherwise, ALL Compostelas are “watered down” by the fact that they all look the same whether you start in SJPDP, Le Puy, Lourdes, or Sarria.
CAMINO TRAIL PRESERVATION
1. Try to find an open church along the Camino; not easy quite often. If the Fraternity wants to preserve the concept of pilgrimage, this has got to improve.
2. Identify a list of places along the Camino with frequent noted violations; garbage, graffiti, vandalized markers, etc… Focus on physical enforcement on those areas by either creating local departments for protection of the Camino by local volunteers, local police, parishioners, etc.
TOURISM AND THE PILGRIMAGE
The Camino de Santiago was designated UNESCO Patrimony of Humanity in 1987. This distinction was granted because of the Camino's HISTORICAL significance and unifying role in cultural exchanges between European cultures since the Middle Ages (and global in recent times). So, since it is a Patrimony of Humanity, I see absolutely nothing wrong if a TOURIST wants to walk the Camino. I actually think that many TOURISTS honor the Camino in many ways better than many of those who get on their high horses and make snide comments to passing walkers, critize, or set out to set others “straight” by calling themselves “True Pilgrims”. If the Fraternity want to build respect for traditional Pilgrimage values start by encouraging local churches to have them open more often, longer hours, places to go in and meditate, if the locals municipalities treat the Camino like just another nature trail, why should visitors treat it any differently?

HOSPITALITY
1. Agree wholeheartedly with limiting the use of “Albergue” designation to those non-for profit. Many private albergues are as, or more, expensive than a hostal. Misleading.
It is noted that once in Galicia, the amount of cars going up and down the trail handing out flyers with addresses and prices for albergues was disturbing and at times, flat out unsafe. Worse place: Palas dei Rei.

KinkyOne · Dec 22, 2014

@Olivares

Just a curiosity - why exactly Leon to SdC?

K1

dougfitz · Dec 22, 2014

I also went to the Cathedral web site and found the rules. The difficulty is that these rules rely on the both the organisation issuing the credential and the Pilgrims Office making an assessment about the intent of a person when they present themselves. We are strangers to the people who have to make these judgements when they issue a credential, and they are not mind readers. Unless there is a return to the practice of only being able to obtain a credential from one's (Catholic) parish priest, who might have a better understanding of whether one has a Christian motivation for the undertaking, there is no way this can be tested.

It is the same with the Compostela - the two tests are Christian motivation and minimum distance. Having a stamped credential is easy, and I suspect that I have seen walkers who have used vehicles to assist in obtaining these. I don't suggest that they did it for the whole of their pilgrimage, but it is difficult to understand how those that hadn't left an albergue when I was leaving were able to reach the next bar/cafe before me without passing me on the trail. So what? They will know whether they were truthful when they were asked if they had travelled the last 100 km on foot, or whether they had misrepresented their achievement. It won't cheapen my Compostela or any other certificate.

As to the distance required, I think there is too much anti-Galician sentiment in the Manifesto, and too much focus on the Camino Frances. As others have said, I would not like to exclude the Camino Ingles or the Spanish section of the Camino Portuguese. The distance should be challenging, but still able to be done by families with children or older children travelling as a group (church and school groups, scouts, etc). I think that the current requirement of 100 km meets all of these criteria.

While less important for me, where I have to travel for two or three days to reach any start point, being able to do it in about a week may be a practical issue. Taking a week away from work gives one eight or nine days to both travel and walk. I suspect that makes it a practical proposition for people from across most of Europe.

My view on albergues is that while there might be some tweaking, I wouldn't want major changes. I can think of several places where I stayed that would clearly not meet some of the more demanding criteria mentioned here. And most represented what I think of as the true spirit of the Camino - places like:

San Bol, which was opened for the night because the local community were concerned that the inclement weather would trap pilgrims on the meseta
Granon - a donativo where some conversations needed to be translated twice to include everyone
Epinosa, where the wonderful former Spanish paratrooper shares his home and prepares the most delightful meal
San Xulian where the hospitaleros play the music of their opera singer daughter.

Losing these places as albergues and re-badging them would be a great shame, and I hope is not the intent.

SYates · Dec 22, 2014

And don't forget Manjarin! SY

tyrrek · Dec 22, 2014

It's all very difficult. We can thank God that there is more than one Camino, and that the levels of vulgarity are still low compared with, say, downtown Benidorm on a Saturday night.

There will always be a bit of a conflict where rules are drawn up. Where does legitimacy come from? Can the rules be enforced? If so, by whom? Where there are responsibilities there are often rights, so we have to be careful what we wish for.

On the 100km issue specifically, I wonder if there are more constructive ways of trying to relieve the Sarria-Santiago mayhem. Sure, the lure of a Compostela must attract a lot of people. However maybe it's also that ending in Santiago is the only way someone with limited time can give their Camino a sense of coherence. Just compare walking the five days from Sarria to Santiago with walking the five days from Logrono to Burgos. The former is a completed pilgrimage (receiving a Compostela tells you so), while the latter seems to be no more than a random walk - you arrive in Burgos, wave goodbye to your Camino family and go home. Some would say that's how things should be to retain the centrality of the apostle to the Camino, and I would certainly have some sympathy with that view. However, by offering other clearly defined and coherent stages (possibly based on the regions/provinces the route passes through), it may make an apparently random walk into something a bit more coherent and attractive in itself. Local tourist information authorities would have the opportunity to make the most of whatever gems happened to be located in their patch (including making sure that the churches etc are open), which would benefit all passing pilgrims. Pilgrims who just walked the Camino in Navarra for example, might get some kind of certificate or badge etc at a pilgrim service in Viana. Obviously I'm thinking on my feet a bit here, but I sense that there must still be a way in which excessive numbers on the approach to Santiago can be reconciled with the under-appreciated treasures elsewhere on the route. Working together with local authorities and giving them something to work with could benefit everyone.

colinPeter · Dec 22, 2014

I would like a "heads up" if they ever decide to "ditch" the Compostela.
I would never walk the Camino again.

No, I would rent a shop near the Cathedral and market my own Compostela.
Let's see around 270,000 pilgrims in 2015 @ say 5 Euro each, mmm... around 1.3 m
2016 let's ay 300,000 @ 6 Euros (inflation) now that's 1.8 m.........

I would never walk again because I would be carried in a Sedan Chair between Paradores.

whariwharangi · Dec 22, 2014

domigee said:
I.e If there is a washing machine available, it's great, it's a luxury! But if we can't afford it, well, how about just not using it?

Try it. People used to get by on one bath per year whether they needed it or not.

I'm sure we'd then have reason to stop complaining of the snorers in Albergues. The people at the compostela issuing office would be reluctant to serve someone in clothes that haven't been washed in 40 days ... on the plus side the botafumeiro might be revived for use on a daily basis. If everyone in the great unwashed did that the camino would probably be closed as a health risk.

However, things have changed ... life spans are longer for instance and I would suggest in the context of the interconnectedness of life the universe and everything that clean dry clothes are a part of the reason for that statistic.

obinjatoo · Dec 23, 2014

whariwharangi said:
Two problems with this:

Why would anyone worship Santiago? He is not now and never was a deity. He was just this guy, a fisherman, who got called to witness Christ's time on earth.

and, no one really knows if it is Santiago's bones that lie in the Cathedral.

That is a great question! I'm not being smart either. For me, Santiago or James represents the lengths I am willing to go to follow in Christ's footsteps. It's metaphor and symbolic. James was carrying The Message. Nobody really knows whose bones those are. I'm not sure I care. Faith is not as concrete as all that. I think that's the point.

Anemone del Camino · Dec 23, 2014

All this talk about the Manifesto reminded me of something posted on the door of Eunate - I took a picture of it in 2006, I hope it is still there:

Estas piedra fueron puestas para el silencio,
este espacio es para la reflexion,
este espacio est para la oracion.
No solo abras los ojos como un turista,
o todos los sentidos como un peregrino,
abre el Corazon come hombre o mujer que busca.
Entra con cuidado y respeto,
entre estas piedras estan recogidos muchos siglos,
muchos silencios,
muchas oraciones.

Losely translated in English:

These stones were laid for silence,
this space is for reflexion,
this space is for prayer.
Don’t only open your eyes like a tourist,
or all your sense like a pilgrim,
open your heart like a man or a woman who is searching.
Come in with care and respect,
in between these stones are many centuries,
many silences,
many prayers.

Initially I thought it said it all. Then, as I was translating it got me thinking: is a pilgrim not someone who is searching? Another can of worms perhaps, but also a lovely idea to meditate on.

Anemone del Camino · Dec 23, 2014

Forgot to add, in a tongue and cheek king of way, I just got back home from watching the movie "Wild" - think we could drum up a lot of visibility for it, create a fans website, its own blog et al, all to divert people to it clearing the Camino a bit ;0)

TerryB · Dec 23, 2014

dougfitz said:
As to the distance required, I think there is too much anti-Galician sentiment in the Manifesto, and too much focus on the Camino Frances. As others have said, I would not like to exclude the Camino Ingles or the Spanish section of the Camino Portuguese. The distance should be challenging, but still able to be done by families with children or older children travelling as a group (church and school groups, scouts, etc). I think that the current requirement of 100 km meets all of these criteria.

Exactly so!

TerryB · Dec 23, 2014

Olivares said:
THE CREDENTIAL
1. Wholeheartedly agree with the concept of ONE OFFICIAL CREDENTIAL. Much like a country passport, there should ONE issuing organization (i.e. the Fraternity).

Which "Fraternity"? We are paid up members of the CSJ in the U.K. But does that count for anything?

Olivares said:
THE COMPOSTELA
1. Minimum Required distance: LEON TO SANTIAGO. Otherwise, ALL Compostelas are “watered down” by the fact that they all look the same whether you start in SJPDP, Le Puy, Lourdes, or Sarria.

So those who are "only" able to walk from Sarria ARE not worthy of a Compostela????

Olivares said:
CAMINO TRAIL PRESERVATION
1. Try to find an open church along the Camino; not easy quite often. If the Fraternity wants to preserve the concept of pilgrimage, this has got to improve.
2. Identify a list of places along the Camino with frequent noted violations; garbage, graffiti, vandalized markers, etc… Focus on physical enforcement on those areas by either creating local departments for protection of the Camino by local volunteers, local police, parishioners, etc.

THIS is where we can all make a difference - it is about attitudes!

Olivares · Dec 23, 2014

TerryB said:
Which "Fraternity"? We are paid up members of the CSJ in the U.K. But does that count for anything?

The Manifesto was published by a Fraternity and membership described as a consortium of Camino organizations, Camino benefactors, and Camino scholars. Hence, I wrote "fraternity" to go along with the concept of merged representation, not a specific group per se.

TerryB said:
So those who are "only" able to walk from Sarria ARE not worthy of a Compostela????

Correct (although the word "worthy" is probably not the right word to use; if it was about "worth" everybody who step in the Cathedral in Santiago would get one...). Clearly not a new concept as it would be along with those who walk Logrono-Burgos or SJPDP-Leon and don't get one, or those who walk from Arzua or Palas dei Rei. Not a new concept at all...

TerryB · Dec 23, 2014

Olivares said:
The Manifesto was published by a Fraternity and membership described as a consortium of Camino organizations, Camino benefactors, and Camino scholars. Hence, I wrote "fraternity" to go along with the concept of merged representation, not a specific group per se.

Correct (although the word "worthy" is probably not the right word to use; if it was about "worth" everybody who step in the Cathedral in Santiago would get one...). Clearly not a new concept as it would be along with those who walk Logrono-Burgos or SJPDP-Leon and don't get one, or those who walk from Arzua or Palas dei Rei. Not a new concept at all...

This is where I leave this thread. When judgmental attitudes come in - I go

Tia Valeria · Dec 23, 2014

Once again I am deemed, by some it seems, not 'worthy' of my Compostela. As I walk the Inglés next year I will pray for a less judgemental attitude from those who somehow feel that they are more 'worthy', or their achievement 'demeaned' by my shorter, but to me meaningful, Camino. I will also weep for those who may now feel that they are not 'good enough' to walk at all as 100kms is all that they can realistically manage.
As my final contribution to this thread and at this time of 'goodwill to all' I leave you with this suggestion. Go and read about the workers in the vineyard, Matthew 20 v. 1-16, who knew the terms when they signed up, and ponder on how it is reflected on this thread and the Camino, and may the Oficina de Peregrinos continue to implement its current rules to the benefit of all.

Julio Gone Camino · Dec 23, 2014

Hmmm ..... many points of view on offer here, and - like others have said - some seem agreeable, and some not.

But in the interests of keeping the discussion in a practical place, I'll resist the temptaion to discuss specific issues from specific contributors other than to say it is IMHO up to the individual to decide what their journey means to them, and having decided it is also up to the individual to conduct themselves in a manner appropriate to the circumstances and with due respect for the country, culture and creed of those they meet and whose lives they cross paths with.

Proper respect, and common human decency, you might say.

I personally think the best way to mitigate some of the pressures on the Camino Frances and the last 100k is not to radically change the circumstances on the Frances, but to actively promote and boost knowledge of some of the other Camino routes. As a relative newcomer to all things Camino-y, I was surprised, at first, to discover just how many different routes there actually are into Santaigo - far more that the 2 or 3 I had some prior knowledge of.

Better understanding of these various routes would allow potential users (however they wish to classify themselves - pilgrim, walker, tourist, or whatever) to better select the journey that suits them. Those wanting a quieter Camino could then choose a quiet route, whilst those wanting (or prepared to deal with) a more commercialised experience could also "buy" from a position of understanding as well.

As in so many things, education would seem to be the key, and I feel the "manifesto" will be a stronger document if it seeks to eductate not enforce, and inform rather than forbid.

whariwharangi · Dec 23, 2014

obinjatoo@yahoo.com said:
That is a great question! I'm not being smart either. For me, Santiago or James represents the lengths I am willing to go to follow in Christ's footsteps. It's metaphor and symbolic. James was carrying The Message. Nobody really knows whose bones those are. I'm not sure I care. Faith is not as concrete as all that. I think that's the point.

Its interesting to note that the pilgrimage to Santiago was conceived as an alternative to making a pilgrimage to Jerusalem during a time that it wasn't safe to go there (some things never change). So there is a precedent for diverting traffic.

LesBrass · Dec 23, 2014

I have followed this thread and watched it unfold and wondered where it would go. I've resisted comment as I just felt a bit of a novice and I also had a feeling I could see the way some comments could go.

When I walked in the autumn I found the busiest stage from St Jean to Burgos. I found the last few days to be some of the quietest even though there were many people walking. I met so many people from around the world and the only one pilgrim that ruffled my feathers was a chap that told me anyone that walks shorter distances or uses Jacotrans wasn't a real pilgrim. My feelings are that I am not the person to judge... I have no idea what sacrifices folks have made to make their journey... or what difficulties they face. I was just grateful to arrive safety. I can honestly say I have never given a thought to anyone else's compostella... I am really surprised to learn that some folks do... why? Aren't our journeys always personal?

I totally understand why friends of the camino wish to protect the beauty and history of the camino but I also wonder if the camino is simply an evolving force... it has evolved since the earliest times. We are being a little short sighted if we only think in terms of the last 2000 years. I also wonder what folks said in medieval times when thousands upon thousands upon thousands walked... and the towns we now love and cherish grew to support that traffic?

I read the manifesto and thread to the family over diner, mainly because I am fascinated by all the comments and opinion and my 16 year old said... “ mmm, and there you have it, a first world problem”... not the most helpful of replies but I can’t help wondering if he has a point on some of the issues raised by the manifesto.

I think I am very fortunate to have been able to walk... fortunate to have been able to fund my equipment and fund my trip and fortunate to have been able to take 6 weeks off to walk... I loved the experience and I hope I only left my footprints behind. I value the all the work and effort made by friends of the camino and I hope to retrace my steps in the coming years... but I dont expect the camino to remain unchanged and I can only imagine that more and more people will follow this route as word spreads about the beauty and joy and adventure.

If the manifest can help protect the physical part of the camino - excellent. I personally feel the talk about who should have a compostella should be left for another discussion at another time as I feel the two issues are poles apart. I also feel that talk of restricting services and creating new names and classifications a little confuisng. I welcome the new infrastructure that is growing along the camino... I am sure medieval pilgrims were given options for food and accommodation and creating a diversity will surely ease the burdens felt by the existing accommodation. Maybe I'm missing something but it does feel that the manifesto is trying to cover too many topics... and perhaps for that reason some important messages are being lost.

Just my thoughts... from an inexperienced observer.

domigee · Dec 24, 2014

whariwharangi said:
Try it. People used to get by on one bath per year whether they needed it or not.

I'm sure we'd then have reason to stop complaining of the snorers in Albergues. The people at the compostela issuing office would be reluctant to serve someone in clothes that haven't been washed in 40 days ... on the plus side the botafumeiro might be revived for use on a daily basis. If everyone in the great unwashed did that the camino would probably be closed as a health risk.

However, things have changed ... life spans are longer for instance and I would suggest in the context of the interconnectedness of life the universe and everything that clean dry clothes are a part of the reason for that statistic.

Oh gosh I didn't mean 'don't wash your clothes'! Sorry if I wasn't clear. I just meant : do without a washing machine, you know, as by hand?
Drying is a problem, I know. But I'm just saying.... It's a pilgrimage, not a five-star holiday.

domigee · Dec 24, 2014

LesBrass... You've said it all much better than I could say myself. Thank you.

Icacos · Dec 24, 2014

domigee said:
Oh gosh I didn't mean 'don't wash your clothes'! Sorry if I wasn't clear. I just meant : do without a washing machine, you know, as by hand?
Drying is a problem, I know. But I'm just saying.... It's a pilgrimage, not a five-star holiday.

I knew what you meant! Besides, my guess is that @whariwharangi was speaking tongue in cheek ..... or half-tongue in cheek?

domigee · Dec 24, 2014

Thank you for that ! Sometimes I think I should just shut up ?

Icacos · Dec 24, 2014

domigee said:
Thank you for that ! Sometimes I think I should just shut up ?

Why?

Anemone del Camino · Dec 24, 2014

domigee said:
Oh gosh I didn't mean 'don't wash your clothes'! Sorry if I wasn't clear. I just meant : do without a washing machine, you know, as by hand?
Drying is a problem, I know. But I'm just saying.... It's a pilgrimage, not a five-star holiday.

Centrifugadoras are a bargain and sooooo efficient. If I ran an Albergue, I would rather pay for one of those out of pocket rather that to hear people complain, righly so or not, about drying clothes. These little things are inexpensive and ooooohhhh so helpful!

Rebekah Scott · Dec 24, 2014

I wish I had a centrifugadora, but they are def. hard to find (at least in this piece of Spanish camino) and not at all cheap... and pilgrims unfamiliar with them often very quickly use them to death.

Anemone del Camino · Dec 24, 2014

Rebekah Scott said:
I wish I had a centrifugadora, but they are def. hard to find (at least in this piece of Spanish camino) and not at all cheap... and pilgrims unfamiliar with them often very quickly use them to death.

Hospitalero was just coming back with one and said it was 100 Euros or so. I used it and only had to press a button, but I understand that things don't last long in the Camino. So perhaps opt to have one but operate it yourself. Casa de la Abuela does laundry rather than having people likely to break machines. But these little things sure do the job!

whariwharangi · Dec 24, 2014

domigee said:
Oh gosh I didn't mean 'don't wash your clothes'! Sorry if I wasn't clear. I just meant : do without a washing machine, you know, as by hand?
Drying is a problem, I know. But I'm just saying.... It's a pilgrimage, not a five-star holiday.

I just got a mind picture of the illogical extreme and had to write it. Sorry if that has caused angst.

dougfitz · Dec 24, 2014

Icacos said:
I knew what you meant! Besides, my guess is that @whariwharangi was speaking tongue in cheek ..... or half-tongue in cheek?

Some of us just cannot resist temptation! That said, it would appear to be an older pattern to leave one's laundry to the last moment, and do it at Lavacolla. Are there any laundry fonts still there to use? I know I saw several this year on the CI, but they were a little too early on the trail, and my clothes wouldn't have been at the right stage of 'ripeness' to properly benefit from a dip in fresh, clean Galician water

dougfitz · Dec 24, 2014

Getting back onto the topic after that bit of frivolity, in relation to potential pilgrims understanding what is 'proper behaviour' before being issued a credential, I wonder how much more can be done by local, regional or national amigos associations. For example, it worries me that there are a range of commercial offerings in several Australian capital cities of courses to prepare potential pilgrims. Some associated with educational institutions might be operating on a cost recovery basis, but for others the costs indicate that they are profit making ventures in their own right, and often appear to also be promotional opportunities for tour companies, authors of camino related guides, etc, etc.

Without having attended any of these, I do not know how much emphasis they place helping the participants understand the reciprocal obligations that arise from the privilege of having access to the albergue network through the issue of the credential.

At the same time, I know that there are active groups around Australia where experienced pilgrims offer their advice and support for free, or with a nominal fee to cover venue costs. At our local (Canberra) friends meetings, one particularly dedicated pilgrim (thank you @Alan Pearce) travels several hours to be with us to share his extensive experience both as a pilgrim and hospitalero.

I have already mailed out the Manifesto to the Canberra Friends mailing list, and will follow up with a short article on the topic of the credential and its obligations and privileges for our next newsletter, but essentially that is preaching to the choir. It is likely to be a topic for discussion at one of our meetings next year as well, but again, this reaches the already converted. I am wondering whether there are other practical things that could be done here, and would appreciate suggestions, either as part of this thread or by PM.

Deleted member 3000 · Dec 24, 2014

http://www.amazon.es/dp/B000VTBYHI/

A bit expensive if the albergue needs a new one each year from overuse.

jpflavin1 · Dec 24, 2014

falcon269 said:
http://www.amazon.es/dp/B000VTBYHI/

A bit expensive if the albergue needs a new one each year from overuse.

I agree and wonder if it would even hold up for a year. The use would be far from normal.

That said, I do appreciate the use of one. I will have to increase my donations with the cost factor in mind.

Ultreia,
Joe

camino07 · Dec 25, 2014

I saw two in use in places on the Norte.I think one was in Markina and maybe Pobena but my memory fails me :-/
We thought they were excellent!

jeffnd · Dec 26, 2014

This will be my last post about laundry, I swear.

I didn't mean to come off as some demanding jerk who insists on having my clothes laundered, pressed, folded and returned to me on a silver platter. Nor do I insist on having the latest and greatest washers and dryers available for me to use free of charge. I am more than happy to do my own washing, by hand. If machines are available, I'll gladly use them. But don't gouge me on the cost! That's all I'm asking!

In a different thread several months ago, I said it would be a good idea to have a laundry mangle for an albergue. If you don't know what that is, it's one of these:

https://www.lehmans.com/p-2399-lehmans-best-hand-wringer.aspx

These things work great for getting the moisture out of clothes, so much better than just trying to hand wring them dry. And the dryer clothes are when you hang them up, the quicker they will dry. And they last forever.

KinkyOne · Dec 26, 2014

jeffnd said:
This will be my last post about laundry, I swear.

I didn't mean to come off as some demanding jerk who insists on having my clothes laundered, pressed, folded and returned to me on a silver platter. Nor do I insist on having the latest and greatest washers and dryers available for me to use free of charge. I am more than happy to do my own washing, by hand. If machines are available, I'll gladly use them. But don't gouge me on the cost! That's all I'm asking!

In a different thread several months ago, I said it would be a good idea to have a laundry mangle for an albergue. If you don't know what that is, it's one of these:

https://www.lehmans.com/p-2399-lehmans-best-hand-wringer.aspx

These things work great for getting the moisture out of clothes, so much better than just trying to hand wring them dry. And the dryer clothes are when you hang them up, the quicker they will dry. And they last forever.

I've seen and tried one of those (much older though) in Albergue Casa Austria in Los Arcos back in 2011. Very usefull!

dougfitz · Dec 26, 2014

jeffnd said:
This will be my last post about laundry, I swear.

I didn't mean to come off as some demanding jerk who insists on having my clothes laundered, pressed, folded and returned to me on a silver platter. Nor do I insist on having the latest and greatest washers and dryers available for me to use free of charge. I am more than happy to do my own washing, by hand. If machines are available, I'll gladly use them. But don't gouge me on the cost! That's all I'm asking!

In a different thread several months ago, I said it would be a good idea to have a laundry mangle for an albergue. If you don't know what that is, it's one of these:

https://www.lehmans.com/p-2399-lehmans-best-hand-wringer.aspx

These things work great for getting the moisture out of clothes, so much better than just trying to hand wring them dry. And the dryer clothes are when you hang them up, the quicker they will dry. And they last forever.

One of these was a fixture in my home until my early teens, mounted on a concrete trough in the laundry. It was always a good idea to find something to do well away from the house if you wanted to avoid being the handle turner.

I recall everything went through two rinses, and went through the wringer after each rinse before being hung out to dry. It was far from my favourite job.

Anemone del Camino · Dec 26, 2014

In a different thread several months ago, I said it would be a good idea to have a laundry mangle for an albergue. If you don't know what that is, it's one of these:

https://www.lehmans.com/p-2399-lehmans-best-hand-wringer.aspx

Fantastic low tech, and less expensive alternative to the centrifugadora!

dougfitz · Dec 26, 2014

dougfitz said:
One of these was a fixture in my home until my early teens, mounted on a concrete trough in the laundry. It was always a good idea to find something to do well away from the house if you wanted to avoid being the handle turner.

I recall everything went through two rinses, and went through the wringer after each rinse before being hung out to dry. It was far from my favourite job.

Having now contributed to deepening the rabbit hole down which this thread has been meandering from the sublime to the mundane, I feel safe pointing out it was started with a nobler objective than discussing laundry arrangements☺

Anemone del Camino · Dec 27, 2014

I feel safe pointing out it was started with a nobler objective than discussing laundry arrangements☺[/QUOTE]

You are right Doug, let's see if this brings us back to more noble ideas...

But to tell you the truth, I think this brainstorming of mine may be a bad idea, and yet .... there might be something in it what can be worked with, and that does related to the initial thread.

I don't know how many have seen the movie Wild, about a woman walking the Pacific Crest Trail, and if they have if they notice what I consider as being the blattant REI product placement.

It got me wondering if these companies we give so much money to buying backpacks, boots, poles, you name it, be it REI, MEC, Quechua, Deuter, etc. couldn't contribute to the trail and grafiti clean up. Perhaps they could also help with the upkeep of donativo albergues. Same goes for JacoTrans and the like, but I hear that for that to work ALL albergues must be on board, or else they win. But that is a whole other story.

I know they would want something in return, some visibility, and that this may irked many, including me, but perhaps it could be done in a nice way, in a way that doesn't reek of consumerism. Perhaps they would be OK with visibility being in the form of some of their products being used in the albergues - with lables still on and a little sign on the albergues billboard about their contribution, rather than massive signs along the Camino.

This being said, I would not want it to be a way for Pilgrims to get out of paying their fair share for something that is supposed to be so meaningful, be it in cash or work. I am just thinking about it in terms of giving all those people who do so much for us a bit of a breather.

Houlet · Dec 27, 2014

I can see it now, Camino Frances sponsored by a major manufacturer of washing machines or soap powder.

T-Shirts sold with their corporate logo, and they then register the yellow arrow as trademark.

LesBrass · Dec 27, 2014

Houlet said:
I can see it now, Camino Frances sponsored by a major manufacturer of washing machines or soap powder.

T-Shirts sold with their corporate logo, and they then register the yellow arrow as trademark.

I have a certificate from both Bath and Lincoln cathedral saying that I paid for 1 minutes upkeep... and in Leon cathedral there is a credit card machine for anyone that wants to make a plastic donation... I dont wish to be antagonistic but I'm not sure I see a big difference in the fund raising ideas... they are ultimately just different ways of raising money? Any money that can be raised to protect the beauty and the history has to be good doesnt it... As long as it's done in an appropriate way?

I may be wrong but I'm guessing that the bottom line is it takes money to maintain these wonderful routes? And I'm no historian but didn't medieval pigrims bring money and donations and didn't the rich and powerful pay for/sponsor churches and infrastructure along the route... and I'm guessing that in their day this gave them kudos/power/ticket to heaven?

Tia Valeria · Dec 27, 2014

That is individuals, not corporations, and hopefully many already contribute as they walk. However maybe a certificate of donation, as well as a sello, from some of the historic buildings and churches would encourage those who don't donate. Not sure about plastic donations as we personally run on cash and don't put our card into anything except ATMs, but it would work for others.

Not sure if we are still off topic, or if it is heading back to it...

Julio Gone Camino · Dec 29, 2014

LesBrass said:
If the manifest can help protect the physical part of the camino - excellent. I personally feel the talk about who should have a compostella should be left for another discussion at another time as I feel the two issues are poles apart. I also feel that talk of restricting services and creating new names and classifications a little confuisng. I welcome the new infrastructure that is growing along the camino... I am sure medieval pilgrims were given options for food and accommodation and creating a diversity will surely ease the burdens felt by the existing accommodation. Maybe I'm missing something but it does feel that the manifesto is trying to cover too many topics... and perhaps for that reason some important messages are being lost.

Good points, all.

It does seem that the issues covered in the manifesto can be split into three: increased commercialism, protecting and improving the infrastucture, and the nature of the credencial.

As far as commercialism is concerned, well it stikes me that EVERYTHING is becoming more commercialised all the time. It is the way of the modern world, whether we like it or not. But then it was the way of the old world as well, and I can well imagine similar matters being raised 50 or 500 years ago.

Much as we may want to preserve the feeling of the Camino, we also have to accept that our view of what makes a "proper" Camino is based on the experiences of a few people from one particular point in time and with an early 21st century perspective. I guess the Camino has always found a way of evolving and growing.

The issue of the credencial seems similarly bound up in a particularly "now" perspective. As others have pointed out, this has also changed over time (I believe that, historically, wealthy nobles and people of standing have been known to pay for a peasant or servant to go in their stead, people would use pack animals to transfer luggage, and many of the then "mod cons" of the day were surely applied). Of course, that is an extreme example, but there has to be some flexibility for pilgrims to do a Camino that is, for them, a challenge, whatever their age, ability and circumstance allows them to do. So I don't believe it is up to some authority to stipulate what does and does not qualify as a pilgrimage, it is between individuals, their concience and their God to decide.

Improving the infrastucture, though, is something this manifesto can clearly influence. As I've mentioned before, I think education has a big part to play in managing peoples' expectations of the Camino, particularly in explaining what each Camino route might be like so individuals can choose better one that suits them. However, with the numbers that walk the route each year, issues will inevitably arise. From a practical perspective the CF is probably the busiest path in the world, and with that comes the impact of these issues on a scale not felt to the same extent anywhere elsewhere: issues of maitenance, accommodation, accessibility, waste management, etc. All such matters ought to be considered in the manifesto, and perhaps this requires multi-agency co-operation to make it work best.

As many posters to this thread have pointed out, there are now lots of people walking one or another Camino route who have booked using an agency of some sort. As long as that is done sensitively and that "tourists" are infomed as to what they might expect, there is surely no problem with that? There is a bubble at the moment, no doubt given impetus from the likes of the movie The Way, but this will probably die down soon - after all, in the grand scheme of things such instances are fleeting.

As I have seen as I've walked the CF, there is a huge variety of accommodation to be chosen from. So horses for courses, it would appear - tour groups, etc, can be booked into bookable accommodation, others can take their chance through the albergue system. The best way to overcome problems might be to embrace the fact there are different types of pilgrim, not to fight against it, and help direct each accordingly. The availability of information would appear to be the key here.

Whatever the manifesto decides to cover, I think this needs to be done with a view to how the route is developing, not in trying to anchor it in the past. Nature shows that a failure to evolve will usually be detrimental. The only way to "keep it as it is" is to effectively establish a theme park - a managed Camino experience - and I'm pretty sure we wouldn't want that as an outcome!

jmcarp · Dec 29, 2014

colinPeter said:
...I remember one day rounding a corner and finding a nice clearing with a table & bench seats provided for the weary pilgrim to enjoy some lunch.
Then noticed the "transit" type van parked nearby, the table set with cloth & napkins, plates of fruit, cheese & meats, bottles of wine and goblets, looked a bit like a feast from an old Roman movie.
No people other than the one woman stationed on guard duty.

I can relate to that with one brief anecdote: On our last night before reaching Santiago, we splurged and stayed in a small hotel in one of the outlying suburbs. There was a tourigrino group staying there as well. At dinner time, a group of tourigrinos invited us to share their table. They were all very nice people, and interested to hear our account of walking all the way from SJPP. However, we felt a bit out of place, dressed in the "better" of our two sets of Camino clothes while they were all nicely dressed -- women in dresses, men in sports coats or neatly pressed shirts and slacks, etc. The next morning, we went down to the dining room for our final Camino breakfast and found several tables set with tablecloths, nice dishes, flowers on the table, coffee cups waiting to be filled at each place. We pulled up a chair and set down, and were promptly greeted by the hostess, who told us, "No, no, no, these seats are for the tour. You must sit over there," as she pointed to a plain table in the corner. So the lesson I learned is that the tourigrinos are generally very nice people, enjoying the Camino in a way that suits them according to their temprament, physical abilities, and financial capabilities. While at the time I was somewhat miffed by the attitude of the hostess, I can see where one tour group represents much more income to the hotel than a few walking pilgrims and thus they receive the lion's share of attention.

Icacos · Dec 29, 2014

jmcarp said:
.............."No, no, no, these seats are for the tour. You must sit over there," as she pointed to a plain table in the corner.

You say you were a bit miffed by the attitude of the hostess? Me thinks your mistake might have been that you had "splurged and stayed in a small hotel" that night.

I had a similar experience in Boadilla. However, that morning I was still smarting from what was, to me, the very discomforting albergue dormitorio experience of shared bathroom / zero privacy / zero space / top bunk / sleeping eighteen inches away from opposite sex total stranger. When the host told me at desayuno that I had to sit at another table, my mind was still so full of the trials of the previous night that it never occurred to me to feel slighted. All things in perspective ......?

colinPeter · Dec 29, 2014

jmcarp said:
..... dressed in the "better" of our two sets of Camino clothes ....

Yes, it's funny how dressed up you can feel as you "step out" in your camino evening attire (dress crocs and all).

jmcarp said:
.... I can see where one tour group represents much more income to the hotel than a few walking pilgrims ....

Yes, this will be one of the problems faced by those trying to bring change via any form of manifesto, it might be hard to get a consensus between those with altruistic motives and those with vested interest.
But, we live in hope

fraluchi · Dec 30, 2014

Rebekah Scott said:
-- gathered to discuss the biggest problems facing the camino today, and to agree on some possible ways to preserve the pilgrimage path and experience while the path continues to be commodified and sold as a "tourism product." ---

Are the following questions clearly defined? 1) which are the "biggest problems" of the "Camino", 2) for whom are these supposed to be the "biggest problems" (various stakeholders) and 3) how can possible solutions be put into practice?
This "pilgrim year 2014" closes with approx. 240'000 arrivals (registrations) at the Pilgrims' Office in Santiago. Not every "Camino walker" is necessarily included in this figure, nor do all statistics lie. Some 162'000 "official pilgrims" declared to have completed the Camino Francés (69% of the total), and of these over 1/3rd started in Sarria. Less than 1/5th said to have started from either SJPP, Roncesvalles or Pamplona. Of the pilgrims who walked the Portugués (15% of the total), 1/3rd started from Tui. And on the Primitivo, 1/5th started from Lugo. Which means that the last 100 kms to Santiago are the most "traveled" by those who registered as "pilgrims" with a "credencial" and expected a "Compostela"
Unfortunately we don't have numbers of the (un?)famous tourigrinos who are probably a "pain in the neck" to both operators and pilgrims with "bona-fide" pilgrimage to Santiago intentions. It's sufficient to Google for "Camino de Santiago" and find all sorts of enticing proposals to "do" the Camino. In Sardinia (Italy) exists a "Cammino di Santu Jacu" which combines the religious with the walking, not necessarily to Santiago (yet!), all with arrows, documentation and accommodations, and which tries to boost the local revival in tourism. Very interesting but still an imitation which exploits the reputation of the "Camino de Santiago".
The label "Camino de Santiago" has become the chicken that lays the golden eggs.
Perhaps it's time to put a copyright to the trademark?

Rebekah Scott · Dec 30, 2014

Trademarks, theme parks, and corporate sponsorship is exactly what we DON'T want! Maybe it is "anchoring in the past" to try to separate the pilgrimage experience from the consumer experience, but walking a holy path to a holy place has traditionally meant overcoming the old identification of self through money and status, and enjoying the freedom of a simpler self among other simple, stripped-down people.
Shared bedrooms, damp socks and formica breakfast tables have a way of contributing to that. We strive to maintain a network of simple, affordable, people-oriented shelters for people who can deal with less-than the usual comforts. We are not interested in supplying laundry facilities to the masses (sorry); we want to keep the camino affordable, so even the poorest pilgrim can be assured all the "donativo" beds aren't packed out by middle-class holidaymakers grabbing "best value for money." IOHO, it's not supposed to be about that.

The first big push, for now, is getting the Camino Frances listed on the UNESCO "Heritage of Mankind in Danger" list, and getting the present Heritage of Mankind listing backed-up with some real legal footing. As it stands, regional planning authorities simply use the UNESCO declaration for a selling point, while promoting every kind of industrial demolish-and-develop plan that might bring more money to their district. We of the FICS are doing all kinds of media these days, stirring up the pot. And lo and behold, somehow last-minute money is being found in regional budgets to shore up the churches in Sarria, make the Way out of Leon more pilgrim-friendly, and kick Cacabelos into alignment with existing Camino zoning rules. (we can't take credit, but the timing is pleasing.)

Kanga · Dec 30, 2014

Taking up one of @Rebekah Scott 's points, I'd hate to lose the egalitarianism of the Camino. I just love that everyone is without the indicia of social status. There are so many people I've met on Camino with whom I've had really meaningful conversations - and I haven't a clue their occupation, their financial situation - even sometimes whether they are married or have children. It is soooo liberating. It means we really meet and talk to people as they are, without prejudice. Even if some people start with expensive gear, some with cast offs, by a week or so into the walk everyone's socks are muddy grey! And long may it be so.

The introduction of luxurious alternatives to albergues does threaten that wonderful egalitarianism.

Sleeping in private accommodation frees beds in parochial, municipal and donativo albergues for those who need them. The price to pay is a loss of innocence about people's circumstances. I'm Looking forward to taking a tent this year.

Texasguy · Dec 30, 2014

Rebekah Scott said:
I love slippery ground!
If someone's gotta say it, I will. The Compostela has become fetishized on one hand, and cheapened on the other. Instead of making a prayerful journey to pray at the tomb of a saint, the travelers make an exhausting, life-changing trek through all kinds of weather and scenery and characters. "More Camino, Less Compostela," they say. To the secular pilgrim, Santiago de Compostela is often a disappointment, an anticlimax. You stand in line, check the right box and get a nice certificate, and see a flying incense show. Nothing else like it in the world. And none of that distasteful old-fashioned religion business, not really. Then it's off to Finisterre for some closure.

The cathedral in its generosity and wisdom sells boxloads of credentials to just about anyplace, and hands out compostelas like candy ... everyone knows about some kind of lie or cheat, someone who got a Compostela under false pretenses. The words printed on them mean little or nothing to (I daresay) many people who move heaven and earth to get one. Finishing the pilgrimage once was a major, once-in-a-lifetime achievement -- and few of the people who made it bothered with paperwork, as most of them were illiterates, from illiterate places. Most made due with scallop-shaped lead badges, or actual scallop shells they wore on their clothes for the rest of their lives and had buried with them when they died.
Now the Compostela is issued to hundreds of thousands of people as a souvenir, beloved by some, and left behind by others by the hundreds in hostels and airport lounges. The Compostela belongs to the cathedral, and only the cathedral can decided who gets one, and why.

Maybe it's time to design a secular compostela, or a "spiritual but not Catholic" one. And make them as pretty and desirable as the present one. Make it so non-Christians don't have to tell a lie to get their souvenir. Eliminate the bed-race by taking away the 100-kilometer rule, and put the traveler's mileage and/or starting point on his certificate, if that is what is so important to him. Charge a fee for it, so you can afford to pay people to do the extra work required. Perhaps lighten up on the whole focus on the Compostela. The point is not the paper, after all.

I dug into this at length on the blog: www.moratinoslife.blogspot.com. I welcome your opinions.[/QUOTE

Well said!!!

I was listening at dinner last night. Some Peregrinos were talking about missing the St. Francis Compostela given this year only.

For some folks is a raise to get this piece of paper. They forget that it is in the journey, and in nature that is the joy of the Camino. As a Cathilic man, I believe that Santiago's bones are there, otherwise this could be just another guided tour to see a big Church. I love the fact that many, MANY Saints have done this pilgrimage. It is when you get to Santiago, and you kneel at the tumb, when you realized that all of this pilgrimage have a meaning.
If you don't believe in this, then why even go to the Church. Go get a Compostela and grab a beer on the way out of town.

Sorry, just my thoughts...

Buen Camino,

Texas guy

domigee · Dec 30, 2014

Rebekah Scott said:
we want to keep the camino affordable, so even the poorest pilgrim can be assured all the "donativo" beds aren't packed out by middle-class holidaymakers grabbing "best value for money." IOHO, it's not supposed to be about that.

So very important! Pilgrims who come from other countries (ie not those mainly represented on this forum? ) must find Spain very expensive. Not necessarily because they are 'poor' as such, just because they are 'poor' once they come to Europe. I for one didn't realise this fully until recently. It shook me.

Rebekah Scott · Dec 30, 2014

some of them are not just poor. Some of them are hungry.
That shakes me.

fraluchi · Dec 31, 2014

falcon269 said:
The Manifesto is from service providers, not the Forum, and they seem to be saying that they now are providing something that they did not sign up for. The Camino has become a tourist destination, and it is not their intention to provide cheap hospitality for tourists. I hear them, and respect their position.

I second this thought. In medieval times, mass pilgrimage resulted from an upsurge in penitential piety. More recently, the pilgrimage to Santiago was discovered and thus promoted by Coelho, Kerkeling, Martin Sheen and "confraternities" around the world. Camino Forums (in their various languages) mainly contain subjects which have nothing to do with "divine mysteries".

StuartM · Jan 1, 2015

dougfitz said:
For example, it is one thing to have pilgrims sign an agreement to respect the values of the camino, but it appears meaningless when there is no practical way of enforcing that agreement.

I don't know if it is just the lack of detail as to what values they are signing up for but one thing I'd really like every pilgrim who is given a Credencial is a set of practical "rules" to sign up to. Philosophical values are great but I think it would be far more useful to realise that many (most?) are not experienced walkers or outdoors people and may not really have much clue about life outside or even that much respect for the environment. I'm talking simple stuff like if you can pack food a few miles along a trail then you can pack the wrappers a few miles more. The piles of old boots, tshirts, etc., are not monuments to be added to, they are just heaps of rubbish. The right way and wrong way to answer nature's call on the trail. That kind of stuff (obviously these are simply my bugbears and not necessarily what I'm suggesting as the final product). The biggest impact on the experience of walking is other walkers and ignorance is a big factor in that. I came across a lot of people that believed because they were walking a pilgrimage everything would magically sort itself out. Yes, it is a pilgrimage and that should be recognised but as a secular walker and someone who spends a great deal of time outdoors I think it also needs to be recognised as any other long distance route subject to all the same problems.

colinPeter · Jan 2, 2015

StuartM said:
.... The biggest impact on the experience of walking is other walkers and ignorance is a big factor in that. ....

I think a bigger factor is a basic lack of "civility".

Whether that can be adjusted in adult walkers via education is debateable. I think unless a person has a "Damascus Road" experience (in a religious or non religious way), that which is shaped by a lifetime of personality development, will probably never change.

Sorry to be so glum.

But if you want to get really dispirited, just google "civility research" or "civility decline".

Happy New Year

Deleted member 3000 · Jan 2, 2015

colinPeter said:
I think a bigger factor is a basic lack of "civility".

Once again, the cynic in me says that civility is usually about "do it my way."

colinPeter · Jan 2, 2015

falcon269 said:
Once again, the cynic in me says that civility is usually about "do it my way."

Maybe, unless moral law exists and underpins civility.

sillydoll · Jan 2, 2015

Rebekah Scott said:
Important things happened this weekend at Villafranca de Bierzo, where the Fraternidad Internacional del Camino de Santiago met for its first big forum. About 100 people who live and/or work on the Camino -- some of them the original arrow-painters -- gathered to discuss the biggest problems facing the camino today, and to agree on some possible ways to preserve the pilgrimage path and experience while the path continues to be commodified and sold as a "tourism product."
Here is the outcome, a rough draft for sure, ideas and plans we will follow up in coming months. It is hitting the fan pretty hard here in Spain, and we are distributing it widely via pilgrim forums, websites, etc. to get as much comment as possible. Please have a read (it is attached here, in English and original Spanish.
Have at it!

Thank you for sharing this important document Reb.
I will be posting my comments, thoughts and opinions on each of the 4 topics on my blog - starting with the first one on the Credential and the Compostela. Just two things about the those documents - when it was reintroduced by the AMIGOS in 1987, the Credential was not a product of the church or the Cathedral and had nothing to do with the Compostela. It was described in their charter as an identification and as a 'memento' for the pilgrim. The only official modern credencial issued by Santiago (1950's) was for tourists and tourist-pilgrims doing the Camino routes by road.
The church issues indulgences to all Catholics who visit the tomb of St James (you don't have to walk there) but the Compostela, which has had an on-off tradition, was introduced much later (14th century) then stopped being issued for few centuries, was revived in the 18th century and then stopped again at the end of the 19th century. You can read more here.
http://amawalker.blogspot.com/2015/01/the-manifesto-of-villafranca-de-bierzo.html

StuartM · Jan 2, 2015

colinPeter said:
I think a bigger factor is a basic lack of "civility".

Whether that can be adjusted in adult walkers via education is debateable. I think unless a person has a "Damascus Road" experience (in a religious or non religious way), that which is shaped by a lifetime of personality development, will probably never change.

Sorry to be so glum.

But if you want to get really dispirited, just google "civility research" or "civility decline".

Happy New Year

I'm an adult, I can deal with uncivil. It's sad but it doesn't really bother me.

I'm a walker, not a pilgrim so maybe I am viewing it differently. For me it comes down to two areas that I think a lot of people lack: respecting the environment and taking basic safety steps. These can be addressed through education, it's done all the time in popular walking areas elsewhere and they work. In Scotland, for example, it is not unusual to get given leaflets in hostels or tourist info offices that explain (literally) how to s**t in the woods, in other places trail codes are made clear to visitors. So many of the problems along the trail stem not from being uncivil but simple, basic ignorance. I suspect probably most walkers on the Frances are not outdoors people, I know many I encountered it was the first time they'd spent any real time in the outdoors. Some basic advice would go a long way.

As a non-religious, secular person I cringed at reading some of the first few paragraphs about pilgrim values as it sounds like philosophical acrobatics. I'm more concerned about treading in a pile of used bog roll than I am about whether or not someone shares his last apple with me. The one thing that would be so easy to do and would benefit the Frances in particular is providing people with basic education on outdoor behaviour and safety. Even reading some of the advice on here sometimes is woeful, from "the Camino will provide for you" stuff to burning used (and wet???) toilet roll in the middle of Europe's tinderbox. I talked to so many people walking without even a basic first aid kit (and not just a collection of various sized Elastoplasts and aspirin). Or the rubbish bins as you get closer to Santiago... honestly, if it is full and you pile it on top, what is going to happen??!?!?! Aaaaarghh!!!! Common sense to most here but maybe not to many people who have never walked anywhere in their lives apart from cities where there is someone to pick rubbish up behind them.

It's easy to complain but really you can't blame people for not knowing what they don't know. Simple education campaigns work well in popular outdoor areas throughout Europe, both for keeping the trail in good shape and for keeping walkers safe. The Camino is crying out for it. Unless it's lost in the general terms of the document I think they've missed an opportunity here.

christy wharton · Jan 2, 2015

Tincatinker said:
It is interesting how much of this thread has focussed on the Compostella and the "entitlements". The 1ook and the 1000k pilgrim can, perhaps, look with outrage, horror or contempt on those who taxi or tour-bus their way to certification. The path to redemption is, perhaps, a little more challenging requiring both confession and absolution and attendance at mass. As I seek little of this for me it is the act of pilgrimage, the offering of my time, my pain and my joy that is "camino". My arrival, at Santiago / Fisterra / Muxia concludes my pilgrimage. Sometimes the sight of 10 bags of detritus stacked in the back of a van mark my service. I don't need a document, I don't need a prize and I don't need a certificate to tell me how far I have come. That is a journey that is not measurable in kilometres or miles.

My understanding of what this manifesto offers, so far, is a challenge to the commodification of the Camino, particularly of the Camino Frances. Half-an-hours surfing might lead many to conclude that the Camino is one of the cheapest and best linear parties on the planet (Koh Samui is old-hat and dangerous these days). Its a great, cheap, holiday and soon with FREE WIFI. People set out now from an arbitrary point in southern France perfectly dressed for the perfect camino, booked in to the "best" albergues and pre-booked into hostales and hotels whenever the available mattresses are reputed to be dodgy. Small family run places find themselves criticised for not providing "ketchup", gluten-free or steamed fish. Hospitaleros take the grief from those who feel they are entitled and for whom privileged is a concept to far. Farmers watch their Camino-side crops disappear and their by-ways, sheds and even spring-houses slowly fill with excrement and tissue paper. And a few harvest pilgrims for their pennies and devize ways to turn their harvest into pounds.

We contribute, without ill intent, to that commodification on this blessed forum. We squabble and promote the "best" boots, the "best" trousers / skirts, the "best" albergue and the "best" menu, the "best" routes and the "best" bits to skip. Now we have an opportunity to contribute to the "best" manifesto for change. A couple of years ago I made a light-hearted suggestion that it was time for the Pagans to re-claim the Camino, perhaps it is time for the Pilgrim to re-claim the Camino. Or one day we may all be Pilgrims in a strange land.

Very, very well said. I often feel like writing similar when the forum reduce to a Nike v Raebok debate. What welcoming and patient locals look after us there. It is to me a reflection the the "way" of life itself.

sillydoll · Jan 2, 2015

Thanks for sharing the Manifesto with us Reb.

Just a few comments on the first Section:
(1) According to Javier Martin (member of AMIGOS and this forum) the credencial as we know it was not a product of the cathedral and had nothing to do with the church or the Compostela, even though they print and distribute it.
The Credencial del Peregrino was adopted at the first international AMIGOS congress in Jaca in 1987 and was the idea of that congress and Don Elias Valina. Besides being a passport for pilgrims it WAS also meant to be a memento of a pilgrims walk on the Camino. “LA CREDENCIAL. COMO RECUERDO CUANDO LA PEREGRINACION FINALIZA" (THE CREDENTIAL- AS A REMINDER FOR WHEN THE PILGRIMAGE ENDS.)
In the 1950's a credential was issued to people who followed the road routes to Santiago. They had it stamped at a number of places along the road and were given a diploma when they arrived.
(2) The Compostela dates from the 14th century. After the decline in pilgrimages from the 15th century, the issue of a certificate stopped for a few centuries, was revived in the 18th century and then stopped again at the end of the 19th century.
Many people confuse it with an Indulgence (for the remission of sins and time spent in purgatory) which is given to Catholic pilgrims only who comply with the requirements of visiting the cathedral, reciting a prayer, such as the Creed or Lord's prayer, praying for His Holiness the Pope; attending mass and receiving the Sacraments of confession. Millions of Catholic pilgrims to the tomb of St James in Santiago still earn the indulgence, especially in holy years, but they don't have to walk there.
Perhaps the church should have stuck to handing out indulgences to all Catholic pilgrims and offering a certificate of welcome to all other pilgrims, tourists and tourist-pilgrims - as they now give to any pilgrim that visits Jerusalem.

I have posted my comments and opinions on my blog. http://amawalker.blogspot.com/2015/01/the-manifesto-of-villafranca-de-bierzo.html

Deleted member 3000 · Jan 2, 2015

StuartM said:
I'm more concerned about treading in a pile of used bog roll

Impossible to do if you are on the trail!

If you are off the trail, then you may be there for the same reason...

Rebekah Scott · Jan 2, 2015

Lest anyone get the impression: FICS, the group that produced the manifesto, is not at odds with the Amigos organization. Many of us are members of both groups, and feel no contradiction therein.

fraluchi · Jan 2, 2015

sillydoll said:
Thanks for sharing the Manifesto with us Reb.
I have posted my comments and opinions on my blog. http://amawalker.blogspot.com/2015/01/the-manifesto-of-villafranca-de-bierzo.html

Thanks Syl! as always, good research
After reading the "Manfesto" over and over again, I can't prevent myself from thinking that "the path to hell is paved on good intentions". Or that "a camel is a horse designed by committee".
I hate to think how a "fiscal de defensa del Patrimonio Jacobeo" could possibly coordinate the "Comunidades autonomas" (public administrations ) between Roncesvalles and Santiago for example, into considering the "spirituality" of the Camino in their planning.
I believe that "market forces", notwithstanding the well-intentioned efforts of many Camino spirit defenders, will steadily outpace the issues mentioned in the Manifesto.
Other Forum members have already expressed similar opinions in one way or another.
I'd love to see Rebekah's wish become reality and "try to separate the pilgrimage experience from the consumer experience". But Moratino's 2 "commercial" pilgrim facilities (don't tell me Bruno's isn't) on the one hand and Reb's heavenly Kingdom on the other, with a church which might publish days and hours of Mass (with alternatives in the next village and town) on their front doors, are a small example of the last 10 years' trend.

Anemone del Camino · Jan 2, 2015

fraluchi said:
I believe that "market forces", notwithstanding the well-intentioned efforts of many Camino spirit defenders, will steadily outpace the issues mentioned in the Manifesto.

It will happen one way or another - and is it happening with private algergues popping up everywhere, food trucks, tourist shops, etc. Might as well be proactive and invite organisations in a way to participate that will be cohesive with what the Camino has wanted to be so far. All it takes is one, and I'm afraid that the REI product placement will give others ideas, just like the movie The Way "inspired" so many to "come on over".

The way I see it, keep hoping it will not happen and wake up one day to a horrible surprise, or think about how to manage this incomming presence.

I was just listening to an interview on the CBC, following the two recent ship rescues (Greece and Italy), where they were comparing the results of an immigration policy that let's people in, gives them a chance to get a job and then regularise their presence, vs the efficacy, or lack there of, of the billions of dollars spent to keep people out and still failing (apparently 50K Central Americans made it to the US this year despite all the measures it takes).

StuartM · Jan 3, 2015

falcon269 said:
Impossible to do if you are on the trail!

If you are off the trail, then you may be there for the same reason...

I wouldnt say impossible, wind, animals, etc. S**t happens

I may be there for the same reason or I may be there to have some food or I maybe there to enjoy some sunshine for a few minutes or have a rest out the way of the foot traffic or whatever.

The difference is that I know the right way to deal with it so the impact on the environment is minimal.

sillydoll · Jan 3, 2015

Rebekah Scott said:
Lest anyone get the impression: FICS, the group that produced the manifesto, is not at odds with the Amigos organization. Many of us are members of both groups, and feel no contradiction therein.

I hope I didn't give the impression on my blog post that there was any friction? I said that many AMIGOS members are on FICS so the Camino is in good hands!

Rebekah Scott · Jan 3, 2015

Oh, you won't believe the email I am getting, Sil... seems a whole lot of people are picking apart the document, looking for things to be offended by, and not reading it as a whole. They don't get it.

But we will continue, and in the immortal words of John Lennon:
You may say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.

whariwharangi · Jan 3, 2015

Rebekah Scott said:
Trademarks, theme parks, and corporate sponsorship is exactly what we DON'T want! Maybe it is "anchoring in the past" to try to separate the pilgrimage experience from the consumer experience, but walking a holy path to a holy place has traditionally meant overcoming the old identification of self through money and status, and enjoying the freedom of a simpler self among other simple, stripped-down people.
Shared bedrooms, damp socks and formica breakfast tables have a way of contributing to that. We strive to maintain a network of simple, affordable, people-oriented shelters for people who can deal with less-than the usual comforts. We are not interested in supplying laundry facilities to the masses (sorry); we want to keep the camino affordable, so even the poorest pilgrim can be assured all the "donativo" beds aren't packed out by middle-class holidaymakers grabbing "best value for money." IOHO, it's not supposed to be about that.

The first big push, for now, is getting the Camino Frances listed on the UNESCO "Heritage of Mankind in Danger" list, and getting the present Heritage of Mankind listing backed-up with some real legal footing. As it stands, regional planning authorities simply use the UNESCO declaration for a selling point, while promoting every kind of industrial demolish-and-develop plan that might bring more money to their district. We of the FICS are doing all kinds of media these days, stirring up the pot. And lo and behold, somehow last-minute money is being found in regional budgets to shore up the churches in Sarria, make the Way out of Leon more pilgrim-friendly, and kick Cacabelos into alignment with existing Camino zoning rules. (we can't take credit, but the timing is pleasing.)

Here in canuckstan we have a company ... a co-0p really ... called Mountain Equipment Co-op that sells outdoor gear. MEC has a program of Community Contributions. Under the program, MEC rolls a lot of the 'profits' (its not intended to make a profit) into outdoor recreation programs including trail maintenance. The community contribution program is yet another incentive to buy your gear from the Co-op as we customers use the trails getting the funding. You don't see the advertisement on the trail; you only see the 'brag' on MEC advertisements such as its website.

So I would suggest corporate sponsorship is desirable however the sponsors need be selected with great care.

MEC Community Contributions
http://www.mec.ca/AST/ContentPrimary/Community/CommunityContributions.jsp

Julio Gone Camino · Jan 4, 2015

Kanga said:
I'd hate to lose the egalitarianism of the Camino. I just love that everyone is without the indicia of social status. There are so many people I've met on Camino with whom I've had really meaningful conversations - and I haven't a clue their occupation, their financial situation - even sometimes whether they are married or have children. It is soooo liberating. It means we really meet and talk to people as they are, without prejudice.

The introduction of luxurious alternatives to albergues does threaten that wonderful egalitarianism.

Sleeping in private accommodation frees beds in parochial, municipal and donativo albergues for those who need them. The price to pay is a loss of innocence about people's circumstances.

Hmmm .... I see something of a contradiction here.

On the one hand, you say you love the egalitarianism of the Camino - that it brings people together in an equal way, regardless of who they are, what they do, where they are from, etc, and that those matters are pretty much immaterial - which is fine. It is liberating, non-judgmental, and non-prejudicial - quite right.

On the other hand, you also seem to suggest that those who use the free beds in donativo albergues somehow get this "better" than those who don't - somehow more worthy - which seems an odd kind of equality, and that this getting-to-know-people is in someway more profound if done at the albergue and not out on the trail.

I'm happy to meet and talk with anyone I meet along the way, regardless of whether they choose to sleep in an albergue, a hotel, a parador or a hayrick. Their stories, motivations and aspirations are just all equally valid as far as I'm concerned.

Sorry if I've read your intensions wrong, but my point still stands - it's the person, not the percieved hardship, that matters.

Deleted member 3000 · Jan 4, 2015

You lower a lot more barriers when you sleep in albergues and eat/cook communal meals. I do not know if that makes it better, but it certainly makes it different. The service providers seem to be saying that they prefer to support the low-on-the-food-chain pilgrim, not the pilgrim with a suitcase and evening clothes. Since most of them volunteer, I do not fault them. The hoteliers are always there for the other pilgrims and their wallets.

Kanga · Jan 4, 2015

Goodness, how easy it is to be misinterpreted. @Julio Gone Camino I really don't understand what you mean. All I am saying is that if a person stays in private accommodation then it is natural to assume they have the money to do it. In the days when there was no alternative to refugios (as we called them) there was no way of knowing if people had money or not. The loss of innocence relates to our knowledge about people's circumstances, nothing else.

Anemone del Camino · Jan 4, 2015

Rebekah Scott said:
Maybe it is "anchoring in the past" to try to separate the pilgrimage experience from the consumer experience... We strive to maintain a network of simple, affordable, people-oriented shelters for people who can deal with less-than the usual comforts. We are not interested in supplying laundry facilities to the masses (sorry); we want to keep the camino affordable, so even the poorest pilgrim can be assured all the "donativo" beds aren't packed out by middle-class holidaymakers grabbing "best value for money." IOHO, it's not supposed to be about that.

Hello Rebekah,

For some reason I woke up this morning thinking about the Red de Albergues and wondered if it may have, "perversly", have been at the start of "consumerism" on the Camino. Please correct me if I am wrong, but one of its goals was to ensure a certain base of services to the pilgrims by asking members to meet certain criteria. We now see mailboxes in those albergues for example. And I am certainly guilty of having prefered those albergues to others to ensure more cleanliness, services, etc. on my 2nd and 3rd Caminos (while, yes, missing out of the charm and history of others, but again, enjoying seeing some of the creative Spanish entrepreneurialism and contribution to the local culture and economy through outstanding restoration of certain buildings for example).

I found online an article (not dated though) that reads:

"La Junta prepara una nueva norma para albergues turísticos de Camino Santiago.
El DG de Turismo de la Junta de Castilla y León ha asegurado hoy que la nueva normativa para albergues turísticos en el Camino de Santiago garantizará la calidad de estos establecimientos y evitará el intrusismo. Es un nuevo reglamento... La nueva normativa, elaborada en colaboración con las Asociaciones del Camino de Santiago en Castilla y León y la Red de Albergues, pretende "garantizar la calidad de estos establecimientos turísticos y evitar el intrusismo", ha señalado. Se trata de un paso más en el esfuerzo que está haciendo la Junta ...por poner en valor el Camino de Santiago y aprovechar este recurso "como la mejor tarjeta de presentación turística que tenemos a nivel internacional". For the full article: http://www.redalberguessantiago.com...-para-albergues-turisticos-de-camino-santiago

You can read that the regional tourism authorities, with The Red, are interested in guaranteeing the quality of "these touristict establishments" (speaking of albergues) to take full advantage of the resource the Camino is.

How does this fit in with what the Manifesto proposes?

I understand that at least of of the initial members of The Red has now pulled out, not liking what it has turned into, or at least said he planed on leaving back in 2012.

Thank you for your thoughts on this.

Julio Gone Camino · Jan 4, 2015

Kanga said:
All I am saying is that if a person stays in private accommodation then it is natural to assume they have the money to do it.

That may or may not be true - but it's something we shouldn't assume. I'm sure we have all met iPhone-and-tablet toting pilgrims toddling between albergues with their Osprey packs and modern, light weight gear. But that in itself doesn't necessarily tell the full story - not all albergue users have high-tech acoutrements; not all who use better accommodation are necessarily wealthy - or tourists, for that matter.

In other words, we shouldn't jump to conclusions.

One might also make assumptions about a pilgrim who can travel long distances on a regular basis to do a lengthy Camino every year or two. For example, that they have sufficient time and resources at their disposal to do so, when others do not.

But that might also be jumping to conclusions.

For those out on the Camino, it is not simply a case of those who use refugios are "proper pilgrims" and all the rest are tourists. One of the greatest things about meeting people on such a journey is that they all have a story to tell - if you let them. So best all round if we don't make assumptions.

Anemone del Camino · Jan 4, 2015

Julio Gone Camino said:
That may or may not be true - but it's something we shouldn't assume. I'm sure we have all met iPhone-and-tablet toting pilgrims toddling between albergues with their Osprey packs and modern, light weight gear. But that in itself doesn't necessarily tell the full story - not all albergue users have high-tech acoutrements; not all who use better accommodation are necessarily wealthy - or tourists, for that matter.

For those out on the Camino, it is not simply a case of those who use refugios are "proper pilgrims" and all the rest are tourists. One of the greatest things about meeting people on such a journey is that they all have a story to tell - if you let them. So best all round if we don't make assumptions.

That is not what Kanga is saying. She is saying that those with little to no means will not opt to stay in private albergues that charge more than the donativos and most munies and religious ones. No money: no entrace. She is not passing jugement, or saying you are only a true pilgrim is you stay in donativos or munies, just that with no money do not have the option of pensiones and private albergues.

I for one will prefer to pay 8 or 10 euros in private albergues to free up a bed in a donativo or muni for some who would not have the option to stay in a private albergue. I can afford it, I do my share.

Rebekah Scott · Jan 4, 2015

Wow. You guys put my feet to the fire!
It is not for any of us to judge between tourist and pilgrim. I tell my Spanish companions this constantly: I came to Spain and the camino originally in 1993 as a guest of the Tourist Office of Spain, so they could promote this new "adventure tourism destination" to well-heeled travelers in North America. (I am American. I was a travel journalist in USA. I since paid off their investment in ways they obviously did not anticipate.)
The Camino de Santiago is, first and foremost, a pilgrimage. A spiritual journey. Zillions of people who make the trip do not see it that way, and that is of no concern to me, because the pilgrimage is no better or worse for their journey -- I believe that "today's tourist is tomorrow's pilgrim."
The camino is, nevertheless, a powerful place with a long history -- an especially powerful testimony to we the people of younger, more secular cultures. In a world all the more ready to dismiss everything spiritual and supernatural, the camino offers a short break with a very physical challenge as well as a strangely historical and spiritual tradition we do not know offhand, but some of us recognize in a fundamental way. Some respond from the very depths of themselves. We are spiritual creatures, and this is a spiritual place. Others might just have a nice holiday here, but for some of us? The camino de Santiago speaks to our souls.
North America, both USA and Canada, were founded by people seeking sanctuary for their beliefs. It is no surprise their descendants respond to holy places, even if our countries have evolved in a secular direction. We are no less citizens of our countries , or our spiritual heritages.
All that said, we all are out here walking on the camino, if we are well-endowed enough.
I do not want to say one pilgrim is more worthy than another, based on his choice of accommodation or transport or gear or whatever. This journey is what each traveler decideds to make of it.
If you want to make this a physical challenge, well. You have your work cut out for you.
You want to wrestle with all you've left undone, well. Try to walk on your own for a while, and then let the trail throw up a counselor for you. They are there. St. James could be the patron of psychoanalylisis. Just keep an eye on your wallet!
If you want to find out what The Spirit is, you have come Home.
Just walk. Keep your ears open The trail will teach you!
HOWEVER: So many of us are born and raised in a consumer society, and we arrive on the camino with our whole world-view intact... and this is an entirely new world, a whole new way of being: Giving, without asking for something in return, and receiving without offering. It is a revelation, a revolution! Some people find it repulsive, or crude, or counter-intuitive. Some cotton on right away. And some, delighted! take advantage of the "free ride," the good intentions of others... they never apply the principals to their own behavior, and thus become parasites without even knowing they are doing anything questionable.
We who strive to live the Camino try to be compassionate to all pilgrims -- today's Consumer/tourist is tomorrow's pilgrim.
We all are evolving, as the Camino evolves.
(I am not sure how this applies to the Red de Albergues, or clothes dryers in all albergues, etc. But I am a big-picture person. Bear with me.)
I think what I am saying, in my incoherent way, is the Camino de Santiago is a place where the ancient "give and it will be given unto you" ethos meets head-on with the "Me-First, Best Value for Money, I have $ so you give me xyz" ideal. It does not always end happily for the inflexible Consumer. And that is NOT a bad thing.
Reb.

Kanga · Jan 4, 2015

Thank you @Anemone del Camino , you say it better than me.

Being painfully aware of the desperate plight of many and also having walked with, and been myself a consumer, @Rebekah Scott you are right. And it has nothing to do with whether we have money or are dirt poor; it's an attitude of entitlement, a lack of gratitude and appreciation. I just know that those of us used to getting stuff have to make extra effort.

Anemone del Camino · Jan 4, 2015

Rebekah Scott said:
Wow. You guys put my feet to the fire! ... It does not always end happily for the inflexible Consumer. And that is NOT a bad thing. Reb.

Thanks you @Rebekah Scott for this most thoughtful and thought provoking post.

1993 ... One day I would love to hear you speak about that things were like back then. It must seem like eons ago when you watch all of us pass by your home.

sillydoll · Jan 6, 2015

Peter Robins comments on the strange perception that grew from the establishment of refugios in 1987.

At the time a credencial was introduced to be presented at the refugio so that hospitaleros could tell between pilgrim and tourist.
'Only pilgrims should stay at the refugios.'
This has somehow morphed into the perception that 'pilgrims should only stay at refugios!'

If anyone would like to experience what it was like to walk the Camino 30 years ago they should try one of the less popular routes, with very few refugios and the local pension owners grateful for the passing pilgrim's custom.

sillydoll · Jan 6, 2015

http://amawalker.blogspot.com/2015/01/the-manifesto-villafranca-del-bierzo.html

I have posted my comments and opinions on Section 2 of the Villafranca Manifesto. I had to post a Declaration of love, concern and care for the Camino at the head of the post, just in case anyone got the idea that I am anti the Camino!

fraluchi · Jan 6, 2015

sillydoll said:
http://amawalker.blogspot.com/2015/01/the-manifesto-villafranca-del-bierzo.html I had to post a Declaration of love, concern and care for the Camino at the head of the post, just in case anyone got the idea that I am anti the Camino!

Dear Syl, I wouldn´t dare to suggest an anti-Camino idea.

Anemone del Camino · Jan 7, 2015

Morning shock: the Credencial now for sale in local walking equipment boutique!

I just visited the Cathedral's website and read that the Credencial should only be distributed by "From Confraternities of Santiago, from approved Associations in Spain and from approved Associations in other countries" and that "This Credencial is only intended for use by those pilgrims who will walk, go on horseback or cycle and who desire to make the pilgrimage with a Christian motivation or at least in the spirit of searching. It is intended to identify the pilgrim. Therefore the issuing organisation must be a parish, a confraternity, Association of the Amigos of the Camino to Santiago and the like", finally: "t is available by applying in person from the Pilgrims’ Office or from other organisations authorised to distribute the official Credencial, such as Churches, Amigos groups, albergues etc. In some countries other than Spain voluntary organisations such as Confraternities who support the pilgrimage to Santiago have been permitted to supply their own Credenciales".

I wonder how a boutique qualifies for this? But more importantly, my local Amigos Group charges 20$ a year to be a member, and with that you receive your Credencial. This service they offer (issuing the Credencial) via the 20$ membership is a way for it to finance its other activites. But if the local boutique sales it for 5$, with a donation of 1.5$ to the Cathedral, where will that leave the Amigos Group?

Deleted member 3000 · Jan 7, 2015

Anemone del Camino said:
the Credencial now for sale in local walking equipment boutique!

Which one?

Anemone del Camino · Jan 7, 2015

falcon269 said:
Which one?

Deleted member 3000 · Jan 7, 2015

What boutique?

Anemone del Camino · Jan 7, 2015

falcon269 said:
What boutique?

Sorry, I misunderstood your question. http://centrelatienda.com/

SYates · Jan 7, 2015

I like what it is written here: http://centrelatienda.com/credential-et-adhesion/

"Une Credencial de grande valeur car elle provient directement de la Cathédrale de Santiago." A Credencial of much value as it comes directly from Santiago Cathedral

What has happened to the above mentioned standards of distributing Credenciales??? SY

Deleted member 3000 · Jan 7, 2015

Lots of outlets -- albergues, the Forum, the Pilgrim Office in SJPdP, and churches along the route come to mind -- distribute the official credencial, some at a markup. Centre La Tienda does seem to be on the edge of profiteering! Those who object should buy elsewhere (as I would).

Anemone del Camino · Jan 7, 2015

SYates said:
I like what it is written here: http://centrelatienda.com/credential-et-adhesion/

"Une Credencial de grande valeur car elle provient directement de la Cathédrale de Santiago." A Credencial of much value as it comes directly from Santiago Cathedral

What has happened to the above mentioned standards of distributing Credenciales??? SY

I absolutely agree with you on both questions SYates - liking the fact that they do remind people about its symbolic value, but I question why the Cathedral would say one thing and then do another. I can understand albergues, since that is usually were people arrive first when heading out, but a store?

SYates · Jan 7, 2015

david townsend said:
Very well thought out.

No, sorry, it isn't, if you read up what the Compostela actually is, it couldn't be issued by any other Town/city/place anyway. Hint: Compostela / Santiago de Compostela. There is no reason why other towns and places couldn't issue there own type of certificate, as, for example, Finisterre does already. Buen Camino! SY

david townsend · Jan 7, 2015

I'm new around here. My opinion counts for very little, but I must say that this is the first thread that has come off as a bit unkind.

Deleted member 3000 · Jan 7, 2015

david townsend said:
this is the first thread that has come off as a bit unkind.

Scroll through the threads and look for the ones that are locked! You will find much more unkindness.

david townsend · Jan 7, 2015

falcon269 said:
Scroll through the threads and look for the ones that are locked! You will find much more unkindness.

It's awfully shallow of me I'm sure, but I'd like to continue thinking that the forum is filled with unselfish and kind people only. Not the judgmental types that are so common on the internet elsewhere.
I'll keep the faith. You all are well meaning.
<3

cher99840 · Jan 7, 2015

@david townsend . The forum IS filled with unselfish and kind people, however that word "only" could be a problem, as absolutes are just too rare. Also even unselfish and kind people occasionally get their knickers in a knot over a particularly sensitive (to them) subject. Fortunately the forum has an excellent monitoring system so these threads don't wander into the ungracious for very long. Welcome to the forum and happy planning for your camino

sillydoll · Jan 8, 2015

I have posted my comments and opinions on Section 3 of the Manifesto - Tourism and Pilgrimage

"Is marketing the Camino as a tourism project such a bad thing?

This is like the tail wagging the dog! I believe that marketing the Santiago de Compostela route to cultural and religious tourists came first, with walking pilgrims following afterwards. (Not the other way around) "

http://amawalker.blogspot.com/2015/01/manifesto-villafranca-del-bierzo-part-3.html

Tia Valeria · Jan 8, 2015

sillydoll said:
I have posted my comments and opinions on Section 3 of the Manifesto - Tourism and Pilgrimage

"Is marketing the Camino as a tourism project such a bad thing?

This is like the tail wagging the dog! I believe that marketing the Santiago de Compostela route to cultural and religious tourists came first, with walking pilgrims following afterwards. (Not the other way around) "

http://amawalker.blogspot.com/2015/01/manifesto-villafranca-del-bierzo-part-3.html

Thank you Sil for the blog post.

fraluchi · Jan 8, 2015

sillydoll said:
..."Is marketing the Camino as a tourism project such a bad thing?

Obviously not! The following is being promoted in Costa Rica right now, to take place during the last 10 days of May. Observe the rates and consider that airfares are NOT included. (approx. US$ 1'680 economy). Note that neither "credencial" nor "compostela" are mentioned.
Quote:
El CAMINO SANTIAGO de Compostela
21 al 31 de mayo Madrid, Burgos, Carrión de los Condes, Sahagún, León , Astorga, Foncebadón, Ponferrada, Triacastela, Samos, Sarria, Portomarín, Lugo, Santiago de Compostela.
Es una expedición al milenario Camino de Santiago de Compostela - con parada en Madrid para descansar. Entre las rutas de peregrinación más famosas del mundo. Referida por Coelho en El Peregrino. Inició con los primeros cristianos que iban a la tumba del Apóstol en Galicia. Una leyenda, tradición y acto de fe que atrae a miles de todo el mundo. Recorrido: tramos seleccionados del famoso Camino Francés (770 km, 31 etapas), iniciando en Burgos (etapa 13) hasta Santiago (etapa 31). Caminata: hay tramos sugeridos para cada día, con opciones de distancias para que usted elija. Podrá abordar el bus en puntos específicos. Mayo: primavera con campos florecidos.
Inversión $1699 en triple, $1739 en doble (+$369 en individual). Montos por persona. Incluye: guía, tour líder, hoteles, desayunos, cenas, tours, caminatas, traslados en grupo, bus de lujo, entradas, reservación de vuelos, reunión de orientación, guía escrita, CD con fotos de la expedición. No incluye: vuelos, bebidas, propinas, seguro, salida CR $29. Reserve Hoy Mismo 2280-1999 / 2280-1899
Unquote.

Julio Gone Camino · Jan 9, 2015

sillydoll said:
I have posted my comments and opinions on Section 3 of the Manifesto - Tourism and Pilgrimage

"Is marketing the Camino as a tourism project such a bad thing?

This is like the tail wagging the dog! I believe that marketing the Santiago de Compostela route to cultural and religious tourists came first, with walking pilgrims following afterwards. (Not the other way around) "

http://amawalker.blogspot.com/2015/01/manifesto-villafranca-del-bierzo-part-3.html

Excellent and informative blogpost!

Thanks for taking the time, as it must have taken some effort to research and write!

sillydoll · Jan 9, 2015

So much time and effort went into the FICS conference that the Manifesto deserves reading, processing and sharing opinions (even if they don't concur with others!)

Rebekah Scott · Jan 9, 2015

If everyone agreed, it wouldn't be a "forum!"

Julio Gone Camino · Jan 9, 2015

Rebekah Scott said:
If everyone agreed, it wouldn't be a "forum!"[

Agreed!

David · Thursday at 9:39 PM

Hi all .. quiet time of the year, up here in England hunkered down against the winter wolf ... so .. idle thought and based on the dinner guest question. If you could walk on Camino with someone...

Bradypus · Wednesday at 1:26 PM

A Pontevedra news website has an article about a proposal to allow reservations to be made for Xunta albergues. The idea was raised at a meeting of hospitaleros last year and is being supported by...

LizzieW · Tuesday at 1:26 AM

Just curious. Do you have a favorite sello on your credential? Where did you receive it? Did you buy a plastic sleeve to protect it?

JustJack · 2025-01-10T07:36:24+0100

Has anyone taken one-to-one Spanish lessons online with Spanish teacher prior to a camino? Did you find you got good value doing it over Zoom versus an in-person Spanish class? I’m wondering if 10...

caminoee · 2025-01-10T21:48:48+0100

Hi all, I am thinking about taking my baby (she will be about 4-5 months) on the camino this spring. I have walked quite a few caminos and I think the Frances or Portuguese would be a good...

Damien Reynolds · Jan 4, 2025

I used to not care. I just wanted to walk. Then I read "For Whom the Bell Tolls" while crossing the Pyrenees... I found that the historical/fictional perspective greatly enhanced the depth of my...

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