Upset stomachs!

Margaret Butterworth · Jun 16, 2014

There are many discussions about bed bugs, but upset stomachs are an equally prevalent problem, and very debilitating. Mine occurred at Carrion de Los Condes in May, after eating at (name deleted) Restaurant. Next morning (leaving the lovely Sta Clara Convent) I was told by an English pilgrim that exactly the same thing had happened to him last year at the same restaurant, and he also heard others throwing up during the night!) This post is to alert others about this restaurant, which attracts a lot of pilgrims in Carrion.
Also, I found the best treatment was black tea with lemon for the whole of the next day (and chew on the lemon as well). Another man I met with the same food poisoning issue told me that he went to see a doctor, and was given free medical treatment, plus a translation service on the phone, all provided gratis by the Spanish Government for medical problems encountered on the Camino. Worth knowing about.

dougfitz · Jun 16, 2014

Unless you provided a stool sample to the Spanish health authorities and had it checked, you shouldn't be blaming a specific establishment in this way. It is impossible as a lay person to identify the source of an upset stomach. It could have been any place you ate or drank at in the previous 24 to 48 hours, not just where you ate the previous night. While it is possible for some bacteria to act as quickly as a couple of hours, it is not that common, and I would be tempted to suggest that it could have been any of the places you ate at in the previous two days.

Also, if you haven't advised the appropriate Spanish health authorities or the establishment itself about your concerns, do you think it is appropriate now, some weeks later, to even raise the issue on this forum. Surely the establishment should have been given the opportunity to address any issues rather than make this completely unsubstantiated claim that clearly is intended to dissuade pilgrims from using this restaurant?

Regards,

Monk Moses · Jun 16, 2014

Thanks for the info Margaret!

domigee · Jun 16, 2014

I really sympathise with your stomack upset, it is very debilitating when doing a Camino....i know!
BUT I agree with you Dougfitz....
You cannot tell where it came from... I had that on my 1st Camino, 3 of us were taken ill, but we hadn't eaten in the same places and the ones I ate with weren't ill....we put it down to the water, but where, and when? Or did we just pass it on to each other? I was taken ill a full day after the others, people react differently.
All I am trying to say is... You cannot pinpoint it to one place, it would be unfair, and to them, and to the peeps who follow.

tominrm · Jun 16, 2014

For me, the culprit was un-chlorinated water from fountains. It was not bad but after drinking water from a roadside fountain, my stomach started grumbling after a couple of hours. A few days later different fountain caused the same discomfort. So I always try to get my water from a faucet.

simply B · Jun 16, 2014

All -

A bit wordy comment below. And, before anyone asks "Are you a doctor" The answer is "No - - but I taught Medical Microbiology to medical students, if that counts."

There are too many different viruses and bacteria responsible for GI upset to link a particular place to a particular problem. One can have their suspicions but, without the testing that dougfitz notes, and a whole lot of follow-up investigation, it is entirely impossible to make a statement as to what the culprit "bug" was and how one came across it.

dougfitz is also correct that 24-48 hours is generally the window for emergence of symptoms but there are some cases where an extra 12-24 hours might be expected.

I had posted back in mid-April to relate a general concern about the incidence of such problems in generally the same region as where you experienced problems.

My walking companion and I had no problems, eating whatever and wherever. I had informed him from the outset at SJPP that constant hand-washing is the first step of prevention.

Really, handwashing. Those little bottles of alcohol gel are not quite as effective - just so you know.

After that, the next best advice is to avoid foods that you might expect have been sitting around awhile. For instance, reheated French fries are less likely to harbor a problem than serially refrigerated and warmed, rice.

After that, there's no other advice I am qualified to give. (Except, don't relate the place you ate your last meal before becoming ill to the illness itself.)

B

bystander · Jun 16, 2014

I'm with dougfitz on this - in my opinion it is impossible and very wrong to try to pin the blame on any one establishment within the last 48 hours of having D&V as being the one that gave you the upset.

Having travelled extensively over many decades my experience of tourists who have experienced digestive problems seemed to be largely down to their country of origin and in those countries the practice of over protective hygiene controls (mainly in the kitchen) which has thereby created, for them, a lack of an auto-immune system.

I don't want to make generalisations about this but in my experience of travelling abroad for over 60 years it has, more often than not, seemed that it is North Americans who are more likely to suffer from stomach problems than those from other countries.

whariwharangi · Jun 17, 2014

Flies landing on food seems to me a more likely vector than drinking water.

Margaret Butterworth · Jun 17, 2014

I realize that I was a little hasty in blaming that particular restaurant without any definitive proof. However my post was based on the following circumstantial evidence:
1) the unprecedented severity of the violent attack during the night
2) the fact that other pilgrims experienced the same thing a year previously.
There is obviously something going on in that part of the Camino, as simply B's earlier post in April attests. Most people would not wish to stop and report it to the authorities because they are anxious to get on with their walk. I hope this discussion prompts people to take care.

homa_bird · Jun 17, 2014

Margaret Butterworth said:
There are many discussions about bed bugs, but upset stomachs are an equally prevalent problem, and very debilitating. Mine occurred at Carrion de Los Condes in May, after eating at Deleted Restaurant. Next morning (leaving the lovely Sta Clara Convent) I was told by an English pilgrim that exactly the same thing had happened to him last year at the same restaurant, and he also heard others throwing up during the night!) This post is to alert others about this restaurant, which attracts a lot of pilgrims in Carrion.
Also, I found the best treatment was black tea with lemon for the whole of the next day (and chew on the lemon as well). Another man I met with the same food poisoning issue told me that he went to see a doctor, and was given free medical treatment, plus a translation service on the phone, all provided gratis by the Spanish Government for medical problems encountered on the Camino. Worth knowing about.

Yes, I appreciate what Mr. Fitz says, but I am another pilgrim who ate dinner at (name deleted) and was vomiting violently two hours later (last September), and all through the night. I have no intention of dissuading people from going there specifically, but what is in my heart is to help prevent people (if possible) from going through the violent illness I went through. Carrion has been identified as a place where lots of folks have taken ill. To me, not talking about it is another sort of disservice.

homa_bird · Jun 17, 2014

bystander said:
I'm with dougfitz on this - in my opinion it is impossible and very wrong to try to pin the blame on any one establishment within the last 48 hours of having D&V as being the one that gave you the upset.

Having travelled extensively over many decades my experience of tourists who have experienced digestive problems seemed to be largely down to their country of origin and in those countries the practice of over protective hygiene controls (mainly in the kitchen) which has thereby created, for them, a lack of an auto-immune system.

I don't want to make generalisations about this but in my experience of travelling abroad for over 60 years it has, more often than not, seemed that it is North Americans who are more likely to suffer from stomach problems than those from other countries.

Ummmm, This is a bit of profiling? North Americans are a vast population (about 530,000,000) we are all over the map with our hygiene, as diverse as any group of folks half a billion strong. I personally live a very microbe rich life, (you don't want to see my kitchen, and as we speak there is garden dirt embedded under my nails!) I have traveled three times in gritty back country parts of India and Sri Lanka (never once getting sick), and my daily job stateside requires close contact and lots of diaper changing, nose wiping and grabbing objects out of the mouths of young, disabled children who are extraordinarily active petri dishes. I'd put my stomach and my auto-immune system up against any non-north american's any day.

Obviously, when ANY human arrives in a new biome, surrounded by specifically different viral and bacterial strains, they will experience new bugs unfamiliar to their immune system. It works both ways. I used to work in birth support here in the Pacific NW for immigrant women; many had pregnancies riddled with colds, flu etc. they weren't suffering back home, say, in Ghana. To say it is the hyper clean north americans who are the ones with weaker systems is...not quite right.

That said, there is something making more than a few folks sick in Carrion de los Condes. My iron clad stomach was turning itself inside out.

homa_bird · Jun 18, 2014

dougfitz said:
While it is possible for some bacteria to act as quickly as a couple of hours, it is not that common, and I would be tempted to suggest that it could have been any of the places you ate at in the previous two days.

Regards,

Actually the most common varieties of food poisoning occur in two hours. 2-6 hours is standard, what you can expect.

Check any state or govt website: most common reaction time to food borne toxins: 2 hours. Here is Indiana, which is taken from a pretty standard info template re food poisoning. Also cnn health library...

http://www.in.gov/isdh/21379.htm
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/library/food-poisoning/DS00981.html

dougfitz · Jun 18, 2014

@homa_bird, I appreciate that many people might have taken ill in this town. My response would be to look at the eating places that those who took ill had in common over the previous one, two or three days, not the previous couple of hours. Given the nature of pilgrimage, many pilgrims will have eaten at similar places in the towns and villages they have passed through along the way to reach Carrion de los Condes.

Warning others to be careful about their hygiene are always appropriate, but I still think reflecting blame on a particular restaurant on such thin 'evidence' is completely unwarranted.

Regards,

simply B · Jun 18, 2014

Actually the most common varieties of food poisoning occur in two hours. 2-6 hours is standard, what you can expect.

Check any state or govt website: most common reaction time to food borne toxins: 2 hours. Here is Indiana, which is taken from a pretty standard info template re food poisoning. Also cnn health library...

Well, I certainly am not one to dispute sources of such expertise. However, a bit of amplification might help here as these sites are generalizing greatly - - as would be expected when faced with reducing a complex issue:

a. "Food borne toxins" would have a very rapid symptomatic onset. That is because they are toxins - - already elaborated bio-molecules. Unlike viruses and/or bacteria, the response they exhibit is governed by the speed of their absorption and pursuant attack on target organs. So, yes - I agree that it can happen that fast but...

b. ...not being present to diagnose symptoms (and let's not go there!) it is hard to say what organism/toxin was the likely culprit. "Food poisoning" is far from homogeneous in symptomology.

The ONLY way to tell FOR SURE is with laboratory testing of..umm, "stuff".

As far as "standard" timing for onset - true for toxins, not so much for bacteria/viruses - it all depends on dosage, dosage and dosage. It seems from my past experience that shigellosis and salmonellosis range from 1-3 days in onset. The more recent variants of noro virus are breaking some of the old rules for "rapid attack" as well as transmission ease.

Finally, once the target organism/toxin has been identified THEN one has to do a cross-check of foods eaten by sufferers, when and where and establish the common link.

THEN you be sure of the truthfulness of the accusation.

BTW, I am VERY sympathetic to everyone's discomfort. I have had virtually every common foodborne illness, at least once, over the years.

Still, the suffering endured does not provide moral latitude to level accusations. I can appreciate the desire but the chances of being wrong and the consequences thereof are too high.

B

efdoucette · Jun 18, 2014

All "science" aside, when you get violently ill from something you ate, you know the source.

simply B · Jun 18, 2014

All "science" aside, when you get violently ill from something you ate, you know the source.

Dang - I wish you had been in one of my epidemiology task forces! (It would have simplified everything.)

As it was, my experience showed that, in about half the outbreaks, the "suspect" held in mind by each member of the group taken ill was different. (admittedly, one of them was usually right!)

However, I feel that a "clinical" view is definitely not helpful to this thread as it is not pro-active and we will have readers bypassing the Meseta for fear of illness - - or potential starvation by avoiding the problem!

I'll come back in a bit after cooking dinner for my lovely wife with some helpful (I hope) precautions.

B

simply B · Jun 18, 2014

Maybe this will be helpful, maybe not.

Okay, some tips on avoiding food-borne illness. I am thinking mid-Prairies North America as much as the Meseta. I am not claiming the following is foolproof, it just improves your odds....and life is all about probabilities.

Rather than finger-wag about “Don’t” let’s examine the “Do” list.

DO!

1. ALWAYS. Do proper handwashing. Drying them can be problematic but you have a kerchief or some tissues, no?

2. MINIMIZE EXPECTATIONS. I am not apologizing for shoddy food preparation, this an endeavor (however feeble) to protect you from it. Here is the restaurant/bar owners view: The financials of running my shop are all about reducing waste because, aside from alcohol sales, that is pretty much where MY margin comes from. (Translation: Keep portions under control and minimize the amount of food investment going to the landfill.) In Spain especially, the alcohol margin does not appear to be as great as is seen in other places.

3. BEFORE DECIDING WHERE TO EAT. Ask a few different locals the best place to get a meal. Then make sure that you see locals eating there before sitting down for more than a beer or vino.

4. WHEN CONFRONTED BY A MENU. As in you are not confident but there is nothing else open…

- stay as “local” as you can as far as food choice. For example, maybe seafood is not an excellent choice. Personally, I do not order salmon, snapper, sole or oysters in “flyover North America” just for example – that is beef, swine or chicken country.

- Order ‘a la carte’ – just because you are a pilgrim does not mean that you must be stuck with the “bulk food” menu. Even so, assuming success on this point, the next few points still apply.

- Avoid “recyclable” starches. Rice is a good example. It is cheap and easily cooked once and re-heated for….how long? Pasta is a bit better but it is not a lock to be problem-free. The softer from 'al dente', the bigger the risk.

- Avoid “recyclable” sauces. Vinegar and oil are just fine. Anything requiring cream, milk and/or eggs can be dodgy. (Choose Salade mixta as opposed to Salade Rusa)

- I loathe “fried” or “well done” but… they are one’s safer bets when in doubt. Chicken, pork or beef for sure – fried seafood is not necessarily okay because refrigeration problems may allow a small amount of bacteria to produce a lot of toxins.

- Not fond of bocadillos either but – trust your instincts – it may be the best move as long as you stick with cured meats such as jamon or salcichon. (Ignore the tortilla and tuna versions, BTW.)

- Soups/stews are generally a good bet but if they come to your table anything less than hot then that is a warning sign. Safest ones are the sopa de ajo, lentejes or caldo Gallego - all the major veggie soups.

5. FOOD IS HERE – NOW WHAT?

- Trust your animal instincts – you do have them. If there is a little alarm going off in your head for any/all of the foods presented then leave them. Negotiating not paying the bill, in part or full, is up to you. Travel is not a safe endeavor. Never really has been until the last few decades and that condition is turning. One takes chances or one stays home.

6. ABOUT WATER. 'No potable' means “don’t drink”. So, do not.

B

Tia Valeria · Jun 18, 2014

We use bottled water not the fuentes. The locals will be used to any 'bugs' it contains - we will not be.
On holiday with a friend a few years ago she commented that it was the first time she had not had a stomach upset when away. Probably because I was filtering all the water - even for our teeth. However our Katadyn filter is too heavy to carry on the Camino.
Edit:- Having just searched for Katadyn I have seen the current prices - glad ours was a gift some years ago. The 'pocket' version is even more expensive than our 'combi' filter.

grayland · Jun 18, 2014

There has been another thread on Carrion...except it was alleging that the water caused problems. The fact that multiple people get sick after arriving in place actually points to a source a day or so before Carrion.

Data Point:
Last year we served as hospitalarios in Carrion. We drank water from taps. I ate in the restaurant name several times as it is across the street from the albergue (Santa Maria).
We ate in various places. We did not get sick. We were not advised to eat in any particular restaurant.

We did not hear of any pilgrim suffering from stomach problems....except for one who arrived feeling sick and got ill enough to have to stay a couple of days to recover. He actually did not eat anything in Carrion except packaged crackers and bottled water.
In addition, there have been several people from Seattle who have served as hospitalaros in Carrion. I have not heard any discussion about this subject in Carrion while there.
It seems unlikely that it would not be known in the town by those who live there and work with pilgrims and volunteer hospitalarios.

Pruden · Jun 18, 2014

I used to be a tourist guy and a chauffeur for tourists from many different countries here in Spain, many of them were front the USA ,and the North American people very frequently have stomachs problems mostly with the waters, we say they are sterilize and uncontaminated and because of that they get I'll very often.
For us Spanish it happens many times when we go to Mexico, we just say is Montezuma's coursing against the spaniards.
Some times is a particular restaurants or fountains, do not drink water from not well known fountains.
Better drink bottled water or from the chlorinated waters.
Buen Camino.

Catzilla62 · Jun 18, 2014

For some reason there seems to be a "bug" or virus going around right now. I have run into several previous walking mates and the person I walked with yesterday that have all been violently sick with the heeves and diahrrea. This has happened at odd intervals but non the less within several days apart. I had the upset stomach this morn but also had a wonderful rest day and seemed to "get over it" with much rest. Could it be food, water, flies? Who knows, it could just be a virus. Good health to all.

Rebekah Scott · Jun 18, 2014

I am sorry the OP suffered such an awful stomach.
I live a day out of Carrion de los Condes. I am a volunteer hospitalero and have served stints at pilgrim locations all over Spain. No matter where I roam, there are outbreaks of bad stomachs, headaches, hives, diarrhea, aches and pains... you name it.
I am sure some of it was due to bad food and poor restaurant hygiene. I am sure some of it was from drinking water (clean out those water bladders, people!). But more than any other thing I am sure of is, any time large groups of people share small spaces, they are sharing germs and viruses. One pilgrim catches a bug on the plane over, he passes it on to the guy in the next bunk, who shares a canteen with four other people whose immune systems are already taxed by exhaustion and injuries ... common sense says the pilgrim lifestyle is an ideal environment for spreading illness. (at least once a year, pilgrims kindly share some kind of lurgy with US.)

I will see one of the junta restaurant inspectors next week. I will ask him about this, and let you know what he says.

bystander · Jun 18, 2014

I feel slightly guilty about being pejorative in identifying North Americans as being more likely to suffer from gut trouble than others. But my observation was based on tourists in parts of the world other than the usual tourist "hot spots" which is not where I have been in the past.
I think that nowadays, when so many people can afford to travel abroad ,who heretofore couldn't afford to, that old observation of mine probably applies to many more from Europe.
Many years ago I spent many months in Chile where the only water that was used in the houses in which I stayed was mineral water (Chachantun if you're interested) - food was cooked in it, we made our hot drinks with, salads were washed in it and even ice cubes were made with (that is one to watch out for) etc etc .
But the result was I never ever had an upset stomach.
So if you want to play really safe, other than sticking to mineral water, my advise is be a carnivore of well-cooked meat.
Next level down of risk be an omnivore.
Want to really dice with the prospect of spending life on the loo - be a vegetarian!

For Lord's sake don't take me seriously - 'cos I don't.

Maya2 · Jun 19, 2014

I'm one of those infamous North Americans, but I have what's referred to as a "cast iron stomach" meaning I rarely get sick. Not even in so-called third world countries. I do wash my hands frequently and I take probiotics. You know when people visit North America, they can get sick too. Different bacteria.

homa_bird · Jun 19, 2014

Rebekah Scott said:
I am sorry the OP suffered such an awful stomach.
I live a day out of Carrion de los Condes. I am a volunteer hospitalero and have served stints at pilgrim locations all over Spain. No matter where I roam, there are outbreaks of bad stomachs, headaches, hives, diarrhea, aches and pains... you name it.
I am sure some of it was due to bad food and poor restaurant hygiene. I am sure some of it was from drinking water (clean out those water bladders, people!). But more than any other thing I am sure of is, any time large groups of people share small spaces, they are sharing germs and viruses. One pilgrim catches a bug on the plane over, he passes it on to the guy in the next bunk, who shares a canteen with four other people whose immune systems are already taxed by exhaustion and injuries ... common sense says the pilgrim lifestyle is an ideal environment for spreading illness. (at least once a year, pilgrims kindly share some kind of lurgy with US.)

I will see one of the junta restaurant inspectors next week. I will ask him about this, and let you know what he says.

Thank you so much Rebekah! I think this is all those of us who experienced illness in that region are asking for; a discreet inquiry. Who in their right mind/heart would want to harm or damage a business trying to make ends meet, support a family etc.? Certainly not me, or anyone else on this forum, I feel certain. And I agree that the peregrino world is a lovely breeding ground for love, spirituality, respect, and last but not least: bacteria and viruses!

PS: Perhaps the sources for restaurants could be checked as well: Many I know (me included) who came up sick had fish: I took a peek inside the local fish market and, uhm, yes: could have been. The sea is a loooong way away from the Meseta

Tia Valeria · Jun 19, 2014

Terry had an upset stomach last year - we had both had the same meal with fish (I was fine). Turns out he is allergic to shellfish. He now realises that it wasn't bad pulpa in Santiago in 2009, it was just that it doesn't agree with him. A friend dare not eat paella or any fish sauce in case it has mussels in it. So for some people it could be allergy not a bug. Still very unpleasant.

Margaret Butterworth · Jun 20, 2014

homa_bird said:
Thank you so much Rebekah! I think this is all those of us who experienced illness in that region are asking for; a discreet inquiry. Who in their right mind/heart would want to harm or damage a business trying to make ends meet, support a family etc.? Certainly not me, or anyone else on this forum, I feel certain. And I agree that the peregrino world is a lovely breeding ground for love, spirituality, respect, and last but not least: bacteria and viruses!

PS: Perhaps the sources for restaurants could be checked as well: Many I know (me included) who came up sick had fish: I took a peek inside the local fish market and, uhm, yes: could have been. The sea is a loooong way away from the Meseta

Now you come to mention it, I had trout at THAT restaurant,
Margaret.

Kanga · Jun 20, 2014

Problems like this are not confined to the meseta. We have just had an outbreak of illness, with many hospital admissions and severe symptoms. It was salmonella. Eventually the outbreak was traced to a local hot bread shop that was selling fresh filled rolls. Lovely owners, a local family, trying very hard to please their customers, hygiene could not be faulted by the food inspectors that descended on them. But unfortunately for them the lovely free range eggs supplied from a small grower were contaminated with salmonella - so the home-made mayonnaise they were putting in the rolls was the culprit. The whole flock of chickens were destroyed by the authorities.
I still buy my bread from this shop - but they no longer sell filled rolls....

Catzilla62 · Jun 25, 2014

I had posted about a week ago of having stomach trouble and unfortunately still have it eight days later. Can't wait to go home in two days to get checked out. I have a horribly sore tummy, very high, not gastrointestinal, I have taken Imodium, given to me by the Farmacia, I have taken two days of Ciprol now and no real comfort yet. I have thrown up the past two evenings as well. Trying to "eat light" like the pharmacist suggested, but very hard. I just hope that it isn't a parasite I picked up along "the way". I will post when I get results.

bystander · Jun 25, 2014

An anecdote:
In the middle to late 1960's I was on holiday at the Club Mediterranée on Corfu which was then not, as now, a particularly well-visited tourist destination (think to get there involved trains and ferries not 'planes).
Adjacent to the Club Med site was a camping site from which, one evening, came two American backpacking-Europe-experiencing gap year girls.
They had the dreaded Gypy/Delhi/Montezumas in extremis and no medical insurances "Could" they begged "anybody help?".
It just so happened that my step-father, a G.P. (doctor) had equipped me for such a personal eruption (which hadn't happened).
I willingly handed out the parentally prescribed dosage for this eventuality (Lomotil neomycin and Neutrodonna-sed).
To say they trotted off happily would not be an amusing or appropriate set of words.
However two days later they reappeared begging me for an antidote!
Olive oil and fried foods restored their metabolism.
Lovely girls they were too.......
Oh, memories............

Catzilla62 · Jun 25, 2014

bystander said:
An anecdote:
In the middle to late 1960's I was on holiday at the Club Mediterranée on Corfu which was then not, as now, a particularly well-visited tourist destination (think to get there involved trains and ferries not 'planes).
Adjacent to the Club Med site was a camping site from which, one evening, came two American backpacking-Europe-experiencing gap year girls.
They had the dreaded Gypy/Delhi/Montezumas in extremis and no medical insurances "Could" they begged "anybody help?".
It just so happened that my step-father, a G.P. (doctor) had equipped me for such a personal eruption (which hadn't happened).
I willingly handed out the parentally prescribed dosage for this eventuality (Lomotil neomycin and Neutrodonna-sed).
To say they trotted off happily would not be an amusing or appropriate set of words.
However two days later they reappeared begging me for an antidote!
Olive oil and fried foods restored their metabolism.
Lovely girls they were too.......
Oh, memories............

Catzilla62 · Jun 25, 2014

Thanks for the suggestion bystander, but like I said, it isn't gastrointestinal. It is most definitely stomach related as it is almost as high as my diaphragm.

Rebekah Scott · Jun 25, 2014

talked today to the inspector. This is the first inquiry received about "that" restaurant, which got an entirely new kitchen installed over the winter and is working with spanking new pots, pans, and fittings...

dougfitz · Jun 26, 2014

Catzilla62 said:
Thanks for the suggestion bystander, but like I said, it isn't gastrointestinal. It is most definitely stomach related as it is almost as high as my diaphragm.

This is confusing. I always thought the GI tract included the stomach, or more broadly, anything from the mouth to the anus associated with consuming, digesting, and extracting nutrients from food, and expelling the resultant waste.

Tia Valeria · Jun 26, 2014

I have already posted that we use bottles water and also about the possibility of an allergy, which may be previously unknown. Terry's bad relationship with pulpa being an example.

The other possibility is that some of these folk have been taking ibuprofen or similar because of injuries and have irritated their stomachs, leading to illness or greater susceptibility to bugs caught off other pilgrims. Taking certain medicines can leave the patient more open to stomach infections from any source. An infected fuente, lack of handwashing etc.........

If you do have to take painkillers it should be in strict accordance with the instructions (eg do not drink any alcohol) and for a minimal time, they are not a good idea in large doses or for long periods. The side effects of any medication are also worth reading. Many say that stomach upsets are likely in x% of people etc......

Trusting that those who are ill are recovered and that others are able to avoid being ill

bystander · Jun 26, 2014

dougfitz said:
This is confusing. I always thought the GI tract included the stomach, or more broadly, anything from the mouth to the anus associated with consuming, digesting, and extracting nutrients from food, and expelling the resultant waste.

Etymology[edit]
Coined based on Ancient Greek γαστήρ (gastḗr, “stomach”).
Prefix[edit]
gastro-

Of or relating to the stomach.

Al the optimist · Jun 26, 2014

Tia Valeria said:
Terry had an upset stomach last year - we had both had the same meal with fish (I was fine). Turns out he is allergic to shellfish. He now realises that it wasn't bad pulpa in Santiago in 2009, it was just that it doesn't agree with him. A friend dare not eat paella or any fish sauce in case it has mussels in it. So for some people it could be allergy not a bug. Still very unpleasant.

Alergic to Pulpo! Aaaaahhhh! No! No! No! Terry now redefines what is a true pilgrim - someone who walks to Galicia knowing he can't eat the seafood!

grayland · Jun 26, 2014

Rebekah Scott said:
talked today to the inspector. This is the first inquiry received about "that" restaurant, which got an entirely new kitchen installed over the winter and is working with spanking new pots, pans, and fittings...

The name of the restaurant has been deleted in the previous posts.
Reb's post indicates that the restaurant is unlikely to be the problem.
Hopefully, I did not miss any references to the name.

christer1 · Jun 27, 2014

Money always talks. No website not even this one wants to name and shame....sad really

Tia Valeria · Jun 27, 2014

christer1 said:
Money always talks. No website not even this one wants to name and shame....sad really

That IMO seems a very unfair comment. No-one should 'name and shame' without absolute proof, otherwise it is slander or libel, it is not a question of money talking but of certainty versus supposition before apportioning blame. The naming and shaming without such proof is what makes me sad, whether it is stomach upsets or where bed bugs are supposed to have been picked up......... .

christer1 · Jun 27, 2014

Censorship is never good imho. Proof is subjective but an opinion should be allowed to be expressed and shared with all. Anything else just holds us back and promotes distrust. We need to take responsibility for our consciousness and our actions. I almost laughed out loud when someone suggested the OP should interrupt the camino and submit and wait for a stool sample in order to express an opinion. A very sad state of affairs and of society.....

TerryB · Jun 27, 2014

christer1 said:
Censorship is never good imho. Proof is subjective but an opinion should be allowed to be expressed and shared with all. Anything else just holds us back and promotes distrust. We need to take responsibility for our consciousness and our actions. I almost laughed out loud when someone suggested the OP should interrupt the camino and submit and wait for a stool sample in order to express an opinion. A very sad state of affairs and of society.....

"Censorship" as such is not good. However "proof" is NOT subjective, it depends on evidence. If that evidence is not forthcoming, then naming and shaming could be regarded as libel. Even a technically incorrect statement can be "False Light" under American Civil Law.
A Forum such as this does have to be very careful in what it publishes.
Opinions should IMHO be expressed as a question not a statement of fact. That way we are invited to make our own judgement on the basis of evidence presented.

Blessings on all Peregrinos
Tio Tel

Al the optimist · Jun 27, 2014

There are many on this forum, some of whom are on the ground, who take a lot of trouble to help others. I am sure that the original poster tried to do the same. However expressing a concern or opinion should surely always be done with a view to fairness, especially where it can affect others and their reputations. I think that efforts have been made above to offer alternative explanations of what may have been the cause of the original posters unfortunate experience. Some of these are from people knowledgeable on the subject. Also we have a well informed comment on the restaurant referred to by a well known, reputable and very respected forum member. These postings collectively have presented a fair and balanced platform for consideration.
Maybe enough has been said on this thread?

bystander · Jun 27, 2014

I think greyland (the moderator) has done the right thing by removing specific references by name to the restaurant in question.
As dougfitz, domigee, simply B and I observed at the beginning of this thread it is inaccurate, irresponsible and unfair to pin the blame of your tummy/gut problems on the last restaurant/bar at which you ate.
Checking with the British National Health Service website it can take between one and three days before the problems, i.e. such as diarrhoea, manifest themselves - indeed in some forms of food poisoning it can take up to 90 days.
Therefore the moderator was doing absolutely the right thing.
Expressing a subjective opinion as to the quality of cuisine provided by one or another restaurant/bar is one thing.
However, as Tia Valeria wrote, " No-one should 'name and shame' without absolute proof, otherwise it is slander or libel" to which I would add defamation and the possible ruination of one family's business.

Al the optimist · Jun 27, 2014

I agree bystander. But I was thinking that sufficient information has now been provided to enlighten us all on the subject of food poisoning, that the restaurant previously named has been vindicated.Anyone reading this thread in the future may well find it educational. So perhaps there is nothing more to be gained by anyone posting more to this thread.

Kanga · Jun 27, 2014

Something happens on forums. They fail because moderators don't moderate. Defamation on the internet is a growing and profitable area for those in my profession! Be grateful for your moderators folks.

dougfitz · Jun 27, 2014

christer1 said:
We need to take responsibility for our consciousness and our actions. I almost laughed out loud when someone suggested the OP should interrupt the camino and submit and wait for a stool sample in order to express an opinion. A very sad state of affairs and of society.....

@christer1, I think it is wonderful that you are prepared to speak out in defence of the OP not having her post edited. But what was expressed was not an opinion, but an accusation with effectively a call to boycott the establishment. My view is that this demands a higher standard of care than merely expressing an opinion. Your defence of the OP in that circumstance makes you look cavalier about any rights the restaurant owner has to be treated fairly and not have their business damaged by untested claims, even though they might be unaware of those comments being made. That is the balance that was upset by the OP, and I am glad to see the balance restored.

christer1 · Jun 28, 2014

This app has now crashed 3 times during a longer reply so will keep this short (I don't have proof of this so please feel free to censor as necessary).
The restaurant owners rights? Which rights are these? I am appalled that these rights (whatever they are) are held higher that the right to freedom of speech. ....
When one applies censorship one has inevitably applied bias.....

simply B · Jun 28, 2014

Christer1 -

Does not everyone have the right to not be falsely accused?

Even with the best tools available to the modern epidemiologist, the success of tracking to origin the source of a (potential) foodborne pathogen outbreak is generally less than 50% under the best conditions. And an analysis of an outbreak on the Camino is a challenge that most pros would be loath to assume. (I say "potential" because norovirus can be either foodborne, person-to-person or surface-to-person.)

I am all for free speech but summarily wiping out a family business without the facts in hand seems just a bit high-handed. (And from the standpoint of well settled law, it is extremely problematic. I'd kinda like to see this Forum around for a very long time.)

B

Margaret Butterworth · Jun 28, 2014

When travelling, I always look at sites like Tripadvisor to gauge the quality of accommodation. When planning for the Camino, I read lots of posts on this forum to try to do the same. This is particularly useful since Brierley's guide is simply a list, with no indication of quality, good, bad or indifferent (though he occasionally uses the word "popular"). If we are not allowed to name establishments that we wish to recommend or warn against, then an opportunity to pass knowledge onto others is lost. If only praise is allowed, then the information gained is very one-sided. Tripadvisor has very damming comments sometimes, but the owners/managers are given an opportunity to respond.

M.

grayland · Jun 28, 2014

We had hoped to keep this thread open with a thoughtful discussion of stomach problems on the Camino.
It has now taken a downward turn into a discussion of forum moderation....which is a violation of forum rules. Two posts on this thread have received warnings.
A reminder to voice your concerns about moderation to private messages..not open forum.

Rebekah Scott has reported that the inspector has no problem now, and has had no reports of problems earlier, with the business in question.
The deletion of the business name was done after her report above.

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