UK rescue services

[Annette london]

Saw this in the paper today
Could not believe it
Had to grit my teeth!

The rescuers should have fined him
Can you imagine what would have happened to this guy in France, Italy or any other country

The rescuers in the UK are all volunteers and should be given more respect than this
The Meteo paper has a longer report than this if anyone cares to read it

 

[SYates]

Unbelievable! They really should find a reason to fine him!

 

[Bradypus]

I can understand the frustration of the rescue teams and I agree that the individual concerned appears to have been grossly irresponsible and self-centred. But it is a widely held principle in the UK that individuals are not charged for rescue services even when they have behaved quite moronically. In no small part because those who provide rescue services - and in the UK they are mainly volunteers both in mountain rescue and in the lifeboat service - do not wish to discourage those in genuine distress from calling for help because they are afraid of being billed for large sums.

 

[Former member 42123]

Saw this in the paper today
Could not believe it
Had to grit my teeth!

The rescuers should have fined him
Can you imagine what would have happened to this guy in France, Italy or any other country

The rescuers in the UK are all volunteers and should be given more respect than this
The Meteo paper has a longer report than this if anyone cares to read it View attachment 68671View attachment 68672

Saw this in the paper today
Could not believe it
Had to grit my teeth!

The rescuers should have fined him
Can you imagine what would have happened to this guy in France, Italy or any other country

The rescuers in the UK are all volunteers and should be given more respect than this
The Meteo paper has a longer report than this if anyone cares to read it View attachment 68671View attachment 68672

One of the reports said the initial call was ""BECAUSE HIS LEGS HURT HAVING WALKED SO FAR "".The rescue team had a 16K round trip through rain,wind and snow and he slept as they fought their way back down the mountain.So sad.

 

[Annette london]

I can understand the frustration of the rescue teams and I agree that the individual concerned appears to have been grossly irresponsible and self-centred. But it is a widely held principle in the UK that individuals are not charged for rescue services even when they have behaved quite moronically. In no small part because those who provide rescue services - and in the UK they are mainly volunteers both in mountain rescue and in the lifeboat service - do not wish to discourage those in genuine distress from calling for help because they are afraid of being billed for large sums.

I agree
But only up to a point, and when an idiot like this behaves in such a stupid way then there should be a fine ...and sore legs should not be a reason for calling rescuers out
He had the wherewithal to call them out so why not call 999 back when he had reached safety

He must surely have known about the work of the rescuers if he was walking in the Cairngorms....as these are serious mountains!

Anyone in genuine distress would not hesitate to call out the rescue services anyway...if they were actually IN distress.....what else could they do on top of a mountain or had broken their bones somewhere,

I still think he should be fined a sum of money....it just might focus his mind ....and anyone else with a "sore leg"

PS in case anyone is interested....BBC/ITV/ch4 ...not sure which, recently did a series of fantastic programmes re the work of the volunteer rescuers as they went about rescues in the UK and Ireland

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

12 to 3! It is a wonder that there were no injuries at the end.

 

[Turga]

12 to 3! It is a wonder that there were no injuries at the end.

...or even 16 to 3 for that matter....

 

[henrythedog]

Saw this in the paper today
Could not believe it
Had to grit my teeth!

The rescuers should have fined him
Can you imagine what would have happened to this guy in France, Italy or any other country

The rescuers in the UK are all volunteers and should be given more respect than this
The Meteo paper has a longer report than this if anyone cares to read it View attachment 68671View attachment 68672

I was in a mountain rescue team for ten years.

There is great resistance in the MRT community to any form of compulsory payment or insurance. The climbing tradition in the UK is really pretty anarchic.

In some cases the family of those we helped became long term doners, in other cases we never even got a ‘thank you’.

It’s fair to say that team members join because they want to and understand that some callouts are like the one reported.

The only frustrations I recall (and this is nearly ten years ago so may have been resolved) were being turned down on a lottery funding application because our client base was not sufficiently ’diverse’ and not being exempt from paying VAT on purchases as the other emergency services (and I think the RNLI) are.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

...or even 16 to 3 for that matter....

Oops. I remembered the 12 from the hours.

Anyway, if there really was justice:

 

[Dromengro]

He had the wherewithal to call them out so why not call 999 back when he had reached safety

Probably couldn't as I I'd be surprised if there is a phone signal at Ben Alder Bothy, as I'm sure the rescuers would have tried to contact him.
However he should have called them back before moving position and told them his plans but might not have realised there would be no signal at the bothy.
Probably no excuse really for calling them in the first place though in my opinion, but difficult to comment without the full story.
Sadly 999 is abused all the time by people who think it is a free taxi service, but I hope that the mountain rescue services in the U.K will always be free and run by volunteers, I've been on quite a few myself.
Hopefully he will make a large donation and have learnt a lesson.

If he'd seen the bothy ghost I bet his legs would quickly recover.

 

[Bradypus]

The only frustrations I recall (and this is nearly ten years ago so may have been resolved) were being turned down on a lottery funding application because our client base was not sufficiently ’diverse’ and not being exempt from paying VAT on purchases as the other emergency services (and I think the RNLI) are.

What a strange situation! Barking mad

As someone who has narrowly avoided becoming a customer of mountain rescue teams on more than one occasion many thanks to you for your service and thanks to the many others who continue to be so generous with their time and energy and skills despite stories like this one.

 

[Tincatinker]

because our client base was not sufficiently ’diverse’

Ah. If only "idiot" was an ethnic identity

I served time on Dartmoor and in Snowdonia. Most call-outs were to the sandal-wearers; the "I don't need a raincoat" brigade, and the map-less and clue-less. Some other calls were really tragic, and some provided the magic - reuniting loved ones despite bad luck in shite weather.

 

[Dave C.]

I didn't read the whole story, but they made the person walk out on his own correct? Immediately, so they did not have to return.

 

[Turga]

Oops. I remembered the 12 from the hours.

I knew that ....

 

[Tincatinker]

I posted this in an earlier thread, nothing changes.

"We used to classify casualties as "lucky" and "un-lucky". The un-lucky were those who, despite having the right equipment, skills and knowledge to venture safely in challenging environments had had the mis-fortune to experience an accident and needed help. The lucky were those who ill-equipped, ignorant of hazards or ignoring advice placed themselves in situations from which they had to be rescued. They were "lucky" because there were people willing to risk their own lives and comfort to mitigate their stupidity."

 

[Annette london]

Oops. I remembered the 12 from the hours.

Anyway, if there really was justice:

Trust you Rick to find something like this ....did make me laugh!!

 

[Mary Doll]

For anybody who’s interested in the work of the mountain rescue teams here’s a link to a book written by a former member of Cairngorm mountain rescue team. Makes you appreciate even more what these guys do.

Robot Check

 

[Moorwalker]

Ah. If only "idiot" was an ethnic identity

I served time on Dartmoor and in Snowdonia. Most call-outs were to the sandal-wearers; the "I don't need a raincoat" brigade, and the map-less and clue-less. Some other calls were really tragic, and some provided the magic - reuniting loved ones despite bad luck in shite weather.

We have walked people off the Moor on several occasions when we've encountered them in the middle of nowhere with no map, no compass, no waterproofs to deal with the mist that has suddenly appeared in the manner of Dartmoor, and no clue. I still laugh at the occasion I was letterboxing on my own on one of Dartmoor's lovely misty moisty days. 3 times I encountered the same group, each time looking at their map with complete puzzlement at which point I would show them where they were, show them how to take a bearing to get to where they wanted to be, and waved them off. An hour or so later I would meet them again, in a different wrong place. In the end I suggested gently that they might like to go home and learn how to read a map before coming back.

I do sometimes walk in sandals, but I grew up walking barefoot and my feet are accustomed to it. It has advantages on the Moor sometimes because I can just squelch through soggy places or walk through streams without pausing. But I know what I'm doing and what I am capable of, I have decent waterproofs available, and basic survival kit.

 

[chinacat]

I was in a mountain rescue team for ten years.

Thank you .... wherever in our mountains you volunteered!

Our Mountain Rescue teams are wonderful.
They should never be taken for granted.

@Moorwalker

I loved your story!
I’ve never used GPS; a map and compass feel more reliable, somehow. Anyway, I had so much fun learning the skills to use them, when I was a child, along with all the ‘extras’ ... the clues to be gleaned from really looking at the land, trees, etc around you.
Dartmoor is beautiful, but the mist can appear in minutes and then it becomes a very different place for the unprepared.
You’re blessed to have spent so long on the Moor to feel at home on it!

 

[Sue127]

Oops. I remembered the 12 from the hours.

Anyway, if there really was justice:

Haha, that made my afternoon (the film, not the stupidity of the Walker!)

 

[mmmmartin]

There's not a mountain rescue volunteer in the entire UK who would agree this bloke should be fined. I could go on, but basically, that's not how it's done here.

 

[Moorwalker]

I’ve never used GPS; a map and compass feel more reliable, somehow. Anyway, I had so much fun learning the skills to use them, when I was a child, along with all the ‘extras’ ... the clues to be gleaned from really looking at the land, trees, etc around you.
Dartmoor is beautiful, but the mist can appear in minutes and then it becomes a very different place for the unprepared.
You’re blessed to have spent so long on the Moor to feel at home on it!

My Dad used to take me up there from very young. The barefoot stage was when the family moved to New Zealand for several years and kids there often walk barefoot or just in flipflops for pretty much any activity. You end up with very wide but strong feet and skin like leather. Then we came back when I was about 15 and I've been walking there ever since.

I like old fashioned maps. I have the Ordnance Survey app on my phone and it's brilliant for making things easy, but I also always have a proper map and compass. I like navigating at sea by the old methods too, there is something very pleasing about acquiring and practising the skill of using a sextant.

 

[mmmmartin]

I like old fashioned maps.

Yeah, the whole point of having a mobile phone is the sheer number of maps you can have on it. Then you can print them out. Which is even better.

 

[chinacat]

My Dad used to take me up there from very young. The barefoot stage was when the family moved to New Zealand for several years and kids there often walk barefoot or just in flipflops for pretty much any activity. You end up with very wide but strong feet and skin like leather. Then we came back when I was about 15 and I've been walking there ever since.

I like old fashioned maps. I have the Ordnance Survey app on my phone and it's brilliant for making things easy, but I also always have a proper map and compass. I like navigating at sea by the old methods too, there is something very pleasing about acquiring and practising the skill of using a sextant.

Ah .., I’ve never used a sextant!
I’ve sailed dinghies and canoed (kayaks), but always within sight of the shore.

My Dad took me scrambling from very young and, later, climbing.
When I couldn‘t get enough of it, within the time he had ‘available’, he used to send me off to N.Wales. I was on Crib Goch, in the ice and snow, when I was 12. His family were Cornish, so I‘d go there too and occasionally relatives took me onto Dartmoor.

We were city dwellers but that didn’t stop me walking barefoot, once past my mid-teens. It’s nothing to be proud of, but I used to put cigarettes out with my bare feet. On wet, grassy slopes, bare feet are more secure ... on wet rocks, too. But I draw the line at ice!

 

[Mycroft]

Saw this in the paper today
Could not believe it
Had to grit my teeth!

The rescuers should have fined him
Can you imagine what would have happened to this guy in France, Italy or any other country

The rescuers in the UK are all volunteers and should be given more respect than this
The Meteo paper has a longer report than this if anyone cares to read it View attachment 68671View attachment 68672

I agree they should be fined.
I live in a very rural state in the US and we have calls for rescue all the time--folks who are lost in mountains, have fallen off cliffs, etc, but this is the first time I've heard of calling because of sore legs. Appalling!

 

[chinacat]

I agree they should be fined.
I live in a very rural state in the US and we have calls for rescue all the time--folks who are lost in mountains, have fallen off cliffs, etc, but this is the first time I've heard of calling because of sore legs. Appalling!

see post # 21 above

 

[Moorwalker]

I agree they should be fined.
I live in a very rural state in the US and we have calls for rescue all the time--folks who are lost in mountains, have fallen off cliffs, etc, but this is the first time I've heard of calling because of sore legs. Appalling!

I disagree. It's a very common feeling amongst people who do activities where there is some risk that you help where you can without expecting payment. There is a huge pool of skill and knowledge amongst the people who walk or dive or cave or swim, and you could not provide that in a paid for service. It wouldn't occur to me nor to most of my friends not to help if they could. For some people training to be a member of a rescue group becomes a hobby in itself.

I used to be a member of the local cave rescue group, not as an underground person (my skills and experience were not good enough for that) but as surface coordinator and admin. I promise you that I never once expected any kind of payment even when we were called out and spent the night at work.

Things like helicopter rescues come through the Royal Navy or the Coastguard who regard rescues as being another part of their training which keeps their skills honed. Those services are provided via our national emergency services budgets from Government. Nobody would expect to get a bill if the Police came out to deal with a crime of the Fire Service attended a fire, the same applies to rescues.

And from observation, the true idiots will get lectured thoroughly by the rescue teams on the way back, which is probably far more effective than giving them a bill.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Fines aren't payment to the rescuers. The threat of fines may make some people a bit more cautious. Fine money could be spent on educational signs or maybe put into an insurance fund for injured rescuers or for the families of dead rescuers.

 

[Annette london]

Fines aren't payment to the rescuers. The threat of fines may make some people a bit more cautious. Fine money could be spent on educational signs or maybe put into an insurance fund for injured rescuers or for the families of dead rescuers.

I do so agree Rick,
Think about it.....
16 volunteers risking their lives in a storm for an idiot with sore legs
What if another real emergency had occurred in a nearby area ?

Re the police not fining people....well if silly people waste police time ...they are given a caution or even taken to court "for wasting police time"...and they are fined
too
And this incident was a serious waste of volunteers time
Even a good telling off to a twat like this would probably be like water off a ducks back

 

[mmmmartin]

Fines aren't payment to the rescuers. The threat of fines may make some people a bit more cautious. Fine money could be spent on educational signs or maybe put into an insurance fund for injured rescuers or for the families of dead rescuers.

No.
No.
No.
The threat of fines may make some people a bit more cautious of calling for help when they really need it. That'd be disastrous and lead to deaths.
And in the UK we don't need an insurance fund for injured rescuers: we have free healthcare and a socially security system.

 

[Moorwalker]

Fines aren't payment to the rescuers. The threat of fines may make some people a bit more cautious. Fine money could be spent on educational signs or maybe put into an insurance fund for injured rescuers or for the families of dead rescuers.

Where are you going to put the signs? Every 50 metres along the side of every road in wild country? Ditto around every piece of water or riverbank?

And who is going to administer the fines? The Police? Are you suggesting that someone who makes an honest mistake should be hauled off before a magistrate? The real idiots are actually quite uncommon, and what you suggest would deter people from calling from help when they should.

Please, listen to those of us who have been there and know it from the inside. There is no appetite amongst the rescuers to see anything of the kind. And as mmmmartin says, we have a proper socialised medical system here, we don't get billed for medical treatment.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

No.
No.
No.

I like what our state of New Hampshire does. They have an optional HikeSafe card that exempts you from fines except for blatant recklessness.

Buy Your Voluntary Hike Safe Card | New Hampshire Fish and Game Department

NH Fish and Game Department, guardian of the state's fish, wildlife, and marine resources.

www.wildlife.state.nh.us

 

[Tincatinker]

I helped carry a corpse down from Mickledore to Wasdale Head once. I wasn't part of the rescue team. I just happened to be there - wrong time, wrong place some might argue. It will never be my favourite memory of many times in those beautiful fells. The MR team did, I did, my companions did what we all would do under those circumstances: what we could and no more nor less. Typing this I can still see the face of the loved one, under the arc-lights, as she came to understand what it was we carried.

Fines. Penalties. Punishments. Never.

But if the stupid b*gger who led to the creation of this thread has not yet put a commensurate bung in the MR pot then I wish him blisters - and I wish him blisters in places he'll prefer not to imagine

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Where are you going to put the signs?

Trailheads. You don't need them at every one just where there is an increased danger.

I'm not going to argue the point further. If your rescuers are happy with the situation then fine. Put it up to a vote and give me a vote and you know what I'd do.

 

[Moorwalker]

I like what our state of New Hampshire does. They have an optional HikeSafe card that exempts you from fines except for blatant recklessness.

Buy Your Voluntary Hike Safe Card | New Hampshire Fish and Game Department

NH Fish and Game Department, guardian of the state's fish, wildlife, and marine resources.

www.wildlife.state.nh.us

That sounds appalling to me. Our whole world is becoming increasingly recorded and regimented and I will not register with my government or anyone else just because I want to go for a walk.

 

[mmmmartin]

The introduction of a fine system and the entry of companies that profited from selling insurance would ensure the exit of just about every volunteer in all the mountain rescue teams in the UK. As it would for the lifeboats, which are manned entirely by volunteers across the UK. Much of the fire and rescue service outside the cities is voluntary.
Because there's more to life than money.

 

[Moorwalker]

Trailheads. You don't need them at every one just where there is an increased danger.

I'm not going to argue the point further. If your rescuers are happy with the situation then fine. Put it up to a vote and give me a vote and you know what I'd do.

We don't have trails in the way that you imagine them. We have open country where people walk anywhere. i can stop my car alongside the road on Dartmoor or any other wild area, get out, and walk up the hill. No trail, no signs, no nothing. That's what most of the UK is like and it's why your suggestion of signs simply does not work.

 

[henrythedog]

Trailheads. You don't need them at every one just where there is an increased danger.

I'm not going to argue the point further. If your rescuers are happy with the situation then fine. Put it up to a vote and give me a vote and you know what I'd do.

We’re OK over here, thanks.

Some of the leading opponents of signage (And let’s not get started on bolts) in the mountains in the UK are the members of the mountain rescue teams and the British (and Scottish) mountaineering councils.

It may seem odd but evidently we (there will be exceptions) would prefer a few to come to grief each year than sanitise the already hard-pressed outdoor environment for everyone.

 

[mmmmartin]

This is an interesting point. The MRT members might argue that once you start putting up signs you have moved into the area where people are looked after, instead of needing to be able to cope with adversity. Then they start saying there was no sign hence there was no danger so they needn't have been prepared.
I suggest we leave well alone.
Back in the day before mobile phones I used to spent a week in the CIC hut on Ben Nevis every winter, ice climbing. I can't think for one moment a sign at the beginning of the track would have made the slightest difference to my chances of survival. Not would some daft insurance policy. A decent, motivated, well-trained volunteer mountain rescue team? That's a different matter.

 

[Annette london]

This is an interesting point. The MRT members might argue that once you start putting up signs you have moved into the area where people are looked after, instead of needing to be able to cope with adversity. Then they start saying there was no sign hence there was no danger so they needn't have been prepared.
I suggest we leave well alone.
Back in the day before mobile phones I used to spent a week in the CIC hut on Ben Nevis every winter, ice climbing. I can't think for one moment a sign at the beginning of the track would have made the slightest difference to my chances of survival. Not would some daft insurance policy. A decent, motivated, well-trained volunteer mountain rescue team? That's a different matter.

I think that Rick was just informing us of the New Hampshire system so I don't think your use of the word"daft" is helpful

Anyway this my last word on the subject and it might be time to give it a rest....before the MRT needs to rescue the thread that is.

 

[Blintintin]

Haha, that made my afternoon (the film, not the stupidity of the Walker!)

this short film was an honourable mention for the 2020 Academy Awards Short Film Animated category. Unfortunately it was not actually nominated, but deserves to be ...

 

[Tincatinker]

Now here is a happy ending: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-51473800

Apologies to those denied access to our renowned BBC.

 

[Bradypus]

Now here is a happy ending: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-51473800

Apologies to those denied access to our renowned BBC.

Given the OP it might be worth quoting the last few short paragraphs of the BBC article for those who cannot view it:
"Lochaber MRT, like other mountain rescue teams, rely on grants and public donations for funding.

Responding to calls on social media for people to take out insurance before heading into Scotland's hills, or for people to be charged for being rescued, the team said such measures would be unworkable.

"Where do you stop? Insurance for fishing, rugby, football all of which have more incidents and injuries than mountaineering?" said the team.

The team said efforts should be focused on increasing awareness of mountain safety and weather forecasts, adding that the rescued four men should be "cut a little bit of slack".

 

[mmmmartin]

Good point about rugby. A quite dangerous pastime. And for tying up police resources you can't get bigger than football matches.

 

[chinacat]

Now here is a happy ending: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-51473800

Apologies to those denied access to our renowned BBC.

That’s lovely!!

I’d read about that incident ... those guys had no idea what they were getting into!
”Tourist Path” is a rather optimistic way of describing any path up the Ben, especially in winter.
It seems they were rescued from a very dangerous situation and position.

Unlimited kudos to the Lochaber MR team for saving their lives!!
Brilliant work!!!

 

[notion900]

Sore legs boy will be punished: he'll have the mickey taken out of him for years, if not forever.
#britishjustice

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

I've mentioned earlier about New Hampshire's rescue program. The latest edition of the Appalachian Mountain Club's magazine has an article about them, their difficulty getting enough funding and collecting costs for rescues.

AMC Outdoors Blog | Appalachian Mountain Club (AMC)

AMC Outdoors provides high-quality coverage of outdoor recreation, education, and conservation throughout the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic.

www.outdoors.org