This is a very Negative Post. A Vent.

[Anniesantiago]

VENT WARNING. If you don't want to hear it, pass on this post.
I'm in a bad mood and probably will delete this when I get over it.
But for now, I need to say it.

I think the straw that broke the camel's back has fallen.
It may seem like such a small thing, but . . .

Please.

If you don't understand how to work Spanish washing machines, DON'T TOUCH THEM!

They are MUCH different from our machines in the USA.
It is not uncommon for a cycle to be longer than 1 hour, unlike our 20 minute cycles.
Forcing the door open mid-cycle CAN BREAK THE MACHINE, resulting in expensive repairs or replacement.

I have heard complaints from SEVERAL owners about pilgrims breaking the machine.
Even with signs up in English, people ignore them.
WTF!???
One albergue (Santa Celia) closed their kitchen for at least one season because the washer had been forced open and broken twice. Who cares? The pilgrims coming in from Jaca who have no place to cook their food or wash their clothes!

I have just had the experience of a group leader and lodging OWNER asking that the pilgrims do not try to operate their machine. The owner had stayed an extra hour and a half waiting for a rude pilgrim who sat at the bar and drank instead knowing she was waiting to put his wash in.

She finally had to go make dinner for her own family. The group leader was given instructions on how to operate the BRAND NEW MACHINE and asked the pilgrims to please not touch the machine, but ask for help.

THEY AGREED.

The group leader starts the machine, goes to make a sandwich and comes back to find the washer door forced open. Luckily he got it to work again.

This is a place where we have developed a very good relationship with the owners. It would be a shame if that were ruined by spoiled, irresponsible tourists.

Rude, demanding, ignorant, and self-absorbed people are on the rise on the Camino, in my opinion.

I've heard several albergue owners comment that the money just isn't worth putting up with the foolishness.

Ours is a budget trip. I state in the handouts "This is a budget trip, not a five-star vacation." "We are not a company, we are pilgrims helping pilgrims." But I've discovered that many do not bother to read the material I send out. That assumption is based on the constant questions I get about material I covered in the hand outs.

For the amount of time I put in planning, making reservations, and emailing group members, I end up making less than minimum wage. You couldn't stay 5 nights in an American hotel for what people pay for 3 weeks paid lodging with us (and many other groups). And as many nice people as I've had on my trips, it seems there's always one who threatens to ruin it for everyone. I'm just about worn out.

• I have had a woman throw a tantrum and slam her suitcase all over antique furniture because she was tired.
• I've had a woman leave Orisson at 9 am and not get into Roncesvalles until 9:45 pm, never thinking about the rest of the group worrying sick if she'd fallen off a cliff. Everyone else arrived by 2 pm. This went on until I threatened to boot her off the trip and cancel her lodging reservations.
• I've had a man hang his dripping muddy wet raincoat on priceless antiques in a casa rural.
• One guy came in drunk late at night and started a blazing fire in the fireplace, then went to bed leaving it burning. The hostess and her help had to come down and put out the fire, leading to no more firewood being left for pilgrims.
• I watched an American man and his daughter START a fight and punch another pilgrim because the daughter lied about what was happening. If there had not been a mattress on the floor, the 2d man would have been dead, his head hit so hard on the floor.
• I've had a woman who insisted she spoke Spanish be extremely rude to taxi drivers and hotel workers, embarrassing me and making me want to crawl into a hole.
• I've had a woman scream in my face because she was unhappy about taxi service.
• I've had a woman call me in a panic and insist I hurry and get to a village because she couldn't find her lodging. I caught a taxi and found her drinking Sangria in the square with her friends - she stayed there until after 9 pm.
• I've had people insist on carrying 50 pounds too much, buy nick-nacks in nearly every village, increasing their weight, and refuse to pay pack transport, instead asking their fellow pilgrims to carry their excess weight, making other group members very uncomfortable to say no.
• After MANY warnings in the written material I send out, I've had several people get angry because I've told my group leaders NOT to carry their heavy packs up stairs. I can't risk my group leader getting hurt and people just refuse to pack light.
• I've had people complain the rooms were too small, too big, too hot, too cold, blah blah blah. The compared the pilgrim rooms at San Martin Pinario to jail cells. Really???
• I've had people LEAVE their room at SMP to go to a different hotel, and refuse to check out and leave the key for other pilgrims who needed the rooms. In other words, since they had "paid for" the room, even though they weren't using it, they wouldn't give up the key.

Despite all the wonderful experiences I've had on the Camino (and there HAVE been more positive experiences than negative) in past years, I'm feeling "done."

It's hard to smile and stay positive in the face of increasing rudeness and self-centeredness.

Where is the Camino Spirit?
Oh, it's there, but you have to peel back layers to see it much anymore, in my experience.

I do know myself.

I have learned I don't do well with "difficult people" - aka people who are SUPPOSED to be adults but act like spoiled children. They wear me down and I'm just past the age of wanting to deal with their crap.

So I should retire, I'm thinking.

I'll be glad when the Camino is no longer a fad and pilgrims instead of tourists return to walk.
But then, it's said you can never go back..
Shame, that...

Sorry for venting, but I needed to get it out.

I feel like starting a campaign or writing a book about all the BAD THINGS that happen on the Camino just to get the traffic down.

:::crawling into a hole:::
*****
I also need to add that I have met and led WONDERFUL people on the Camino.
Many more of those than the negative type.
Most of the people in my groups have been polite, fun-loving, respectful, spiritual, and kind PILGRIMS who I have thoroughly enjoyed. It just seems there's always that one or two in each group that tries to ruin it.

I'm grateful for the conversation this has opened up.
I will leave the post up.

Today is a better day!
Thanks all.

 

[jstorybook]

People are rude all over the world--you be the difference you want to see in the world.

 

[Stuart Lennon]

Hey Annie - some bad stuff there. Sometimes worth getting it out.

I suspect the Camino spirit is still out there. Take a deep breath.

Ultreia

 

[Deleted member 36903]

Sorry that you had these experiences Anniesantiago but no problem about letting you vent. What you have to do in organising the trips would be beyond my coping reserves, so give yourself a pat on the back for caring when others are rude, selfish or demonstrate an overblown sense of entitlement. You must have enormous patience together with the perseverance to remember all the good things that happen on the Way. I think the long term answer is that the word should be circulated that the Camino is first and foremost a pilgrimage and those who arrive expecting a vacation are simply making the wrong choice. On the other hand, I would put my name down to read the first copy of your book listing all the bad things that happen - perhaps it will be made into a movie and that would really get the traffic down! Don't despair it was a an interesting and useful post.

 

[simply B]

I feel like starting a campaign or writing a book about all the BAD THINGS that happen on the Camino just to get the traffic down.

Not much of a joiner so I'm unable to help with a campaign.

I will offer my services, gratis, as a collaborator or editor for your book however!

BTW, I'm glad you let that all out. Not only do you feel better (I would think!) but it is fair enough to post the "downsides" out there as a call to respect hospitality.

B

 

[peregrina2000]

Annie, whether your mood changes or not, I hope you won't delete this post. I am almost 100% certain that forum members are not the people that you describe in these posts, at least I hope so. But what you write goes a long way towards explaining why on some occasions we "good behaving" pilgrims arrive to find surly, uncooperative, or slightly rude people working. People who work on the Camino put up with a lot. We should certainly cut them a lot of slack. Buen Camino, Laurie

 

[MTtoCamino]

That for me was an education, for if I had to launder clothes in a machine I always had to ask for assistance, or I paid for the service to have my stuff cleaned. Your rant turns out to be a good thing. Communication from the owners to the forum would be very helpful!

 

[SabsP]

Just a big hug Annie. Please do not delete your honest post.

Hope it gets better for you.

Ultreia.

 

[Michael Caleigh]

Wonderful post and I noticed this when we joined the Camino Frances from another Camino (which shall not be named to keep it the way it is). I was surprised by the attitude of some pilgrims/tourists and made a huge change to the previous days/weeks on a rather extremely romantic and spiritual journey.....Keep up the good spirit as the good pilgrims are still out there and we will continue to walk the way....

Ultreia....big hugs...

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

You provide a wonderful service, making the Camino accessible to many who would otherwise not be able to experience it. I can see how (more than) a few bad apples can ruin things, and I'm really sorry for all the badly behaving walkers out there. Not only NOT appreciating but generally being self-entitled jerks. I know you will bounce back soon (luckily for those who need your help)...but don't delete this ...people need to know
And I never got why someone would think it was ok to interrupt wash to add their dirty stuff to a half clean load with less than a full cycle left. Beyond rude it's just dumb

 

[BShea]

Great post as a reminder of how we should behave. I have seen all of the situations you have so succinctly described. My final straw as a group travel leader was when my high school students refused to go sightseeing because it would mean they had to leave the Paris apartment I had rented. They didn't want to lose their WiFi connection!

I know how hard you must have worked to pull everything together to make this a memorable trip and I am sure you must feel unappreciated when these kinds of things happen. But... I am sure there are participants that do recognize what you have organized for them and will thank you in the end. My two cents... go to a café, relax and try to laugh at these comical, ridiculous people. (We always listed the order of people we would "vote off the island".)

My thoughts are with you...

 

[Mark Lee]

To any prospective pilgrims reading this thread, please remember, this is experiences of the OP and by no means represent the Camino as a whole. I've walked it multiple times, and in the process of doing so have made contact and/or observed hundreds of fellow pilgrims. I can honestly say I never witnessed behavior like she describes. Sure, a couple of minor arguments here and there, an occasional drunk pilgrim, but nothing like what she describes. I've had nothing but positive experiences on it.
Don't let this thread effect your pilgrimage plans, and I recommend walking it on your own and not in a planned/paid group or tour.

 

[ess1113]

I've only walked the Camino one time.

While I encountered the usual mix of humanity, I can honestly say that just being on the Camino and enjoying everything that goes along with it by far offset any negative behaviors I saw.
I am planning the Portuguese Route in April 2017 and hope to meet the same mix of people.
Buen Camino Always

 

[Anniesantiago]

 

[PAUL1179]

There is a price to pay for opening the camino to a wider audience and turning it into a Disneyland of sorts.

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

A friend has remarked that each driver should be issued a paint ball gun with five pellets. Drivers would shoot any car that does something monumentally wrong. When police see a car with five or more paint marks they pull over the driver and take away their license. Maybe something like that could be adapted for walkers on the Camino.

 

[Anniesantiago]

A friend has remarked that each driver should be issued a paint ball gun with five pellets. Drivers would shoot any car that does something monumentally wrong. When police see a car with five or more paint marks they pull over the driver and take away their license. Maybe something like that could be adapted for walkers on the Camino.

You always make me laugh!
STOP IT!
I'm trying to be angry!

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

Don't be sorry Annie, and don't crawl in a hole because you vent those bad experiences.
Wish you well and more wonderful Caminos in the years to come, Peter.

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

Paintball pellets in a choice of colors, coming soon to my Camino etsy shop
Now your group member will wonder why you are smiling when they do something bat poop crazy

 

[MTtoCamino]

Annie

I think anytime you mix in business with something you love you will witness ugly more. From my cheap seat you organize for others what many of them could do for themselves. You are dealing with higher % of people that lack respect.
Ever thought of a questionnaire of possible clients?

 

[Anniesantiago]

Annie

I think anytime you mix in business with something you love you will witness ugly more. From my cheap seat you organize for others what many of them could do for themselves. You are dealing with higher % of people that lack respect.
Ever thought of a questionnaire of possible clients?

Not sure what you mean?
We HAVE thought of not accepting people who our problem clients have suggested ::cackle::: though not sure how fair that would be.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

A friend has remarked that each driver should be issued a paint ball gun with five pellets. Drivers would shoot any car that does something monumentally wrong. When police see a car with five or more paint marks they pull over the driver and take away their license. Maybe something like that could be adapted for walkers on the Camino.

You always make me laugh!
STOP IT!
I'm trying to be angry!

It was Annie that got me laughing so hard.

I'm sorry that you had to vent but I can understand. I'm pretty sure that I didn't do anything that stupid but I wonder how bad I may have been on occassions. I could ask Peg but I'm not wondering that much.

 

[BonitaHolland]

VENT WARNING. If you don't want to hear it, pass on this post.
I'm in a bad mood and probably will delete this when I get over it.
But for now, I need to say it.

I think the straw that broke the camel's back has fallen.
It may seem like such a small thing, but . . .

Please.

If you don't understand how to work Spanish washing machines, DON'T TOUCH THEM!

They are MUCH different from our machines in the USA.
It is not uncommon for a cycle to be longer than 1 hour, unlike our 20 minute cycles.
Forcing the door open mid-cycle CAN BREAK THE MACHINE, resulting in expensive repairs or replacement.

I have heard complaints from SEVERAL owners about pilgrims breaking the machine.
Even with signs up in English, people ignore them.
WTF!???
One albergue (Santa Celia) closed their kitchen for at least one season because the washer had been forced open and broken twice. Who cares? The pilgrims coming in from Jaca who have no place to cook their food or wash their clothes!

I have just had the experience of a group leader and lodging OWNER asking that the pilgrims do not try to operate their machine. The owner had stayed an extra hour and a half waiting for a rude pilgrim who sat at the bar and drank instead knowing she was waiting to put his wash in.

She finally had to go make dinner for her own family. The group leader was given instructions on how to operate the BRAND NEW MACHINE and asked the pilgrims to please not touch the machine, but ask for help.

THEY AGREED.

The group leader starts the machine, goes to make a sandwich and comes back to find the washer door forced open and people stuffing more clothes in. Luckily he got it to work again.

This is a place where we have developed a very good relationship with the owners. It would be a shame if that were ruined by spoiled, irresponsible tourists.

Rude, demanding, ignorant, and self-absorbed people are on the rise on the Camino, in my opinion.
And I've heard several albergue owners comment that the money just isn't worth putting up with the foolishness.

Ours is a budget trip. For the amount of time I put in planning, making reservations, and emailing group members, I end up making less than minimum wage. You couldn't stay 5 nights in an American hotel for what people pay for 3 weeks paid lodging with us (and many other groups). And as many nice people as I've had on my trips, it seems there's always one who threatens to ruin it for everyone. I'm just about worn out.

• I have had a woman throw a tantrum and slam her suitcase all over antique furniture because she was tired.
• I've had a woman leave Orisson at 9 am and not get into Roncesvalles until 9:45 pm, never thinking about the rest of the group worrying sick if she'd fallen off a cliff. Everyone else arrived by 2 pm. This went on until I threatened to boot her off the trip and cancel her lodging reservations.
• I've had a man hang his dripping muddy wet raincoat on priceless antiques in a casa rural.
• One guy came in drunk late at night and started a blazing fire in the fireplace, then went to bed leaving it burning. The hostess and her help had to come down and put out the fire, leading to no more firewood being left for pilgrims.
• I watched an American man and his daughter START a fight and punch another pilgrim because the daughter lied about what was happening. If there had not been a mattress on the floor, the 2d man would have been dead, his head hit so hard on the floor.
• I've had a woman who insisted she spoke Spanish be extremely rude to taxi drivers and hotel workers, embarrassing me and making me want to crawl into a hole.
• I've had a woman scream in my face because she was unhappy about taxi service.
• I've had a woman call me in a panic and insist I hurry and get to a village because she couldn't find her lodging. I caught a taxi and found her drinking Sangria in the square with her friends - she stayed there until after 9 pm.
• I've had people insist on carrying 50 pounds too much, buy nick-nacks in nearly every village, increasing their weight, and refuse to pay pack transport, instead asking their fellow pilgrims to carry their excess weight, making other group members very uncomfortable to say no.
• After MANY warnings in the written material I send out, I've had several people get angry because I've told my group leaders NOT to carry their heavy packs up stairs. I can't risk my group leader getting hurt and people just refuse to pack light.
• I've had people complain the rooms were too small, too big, too hot, too cold, blah blah blah. The compared the pilgrim rooms at San Martin Pinario to jail cells. Really???
• I've had people LEAVE their room at SMP to go to a different hotel, and refuse to check out and leave the key for other pilgrims who needed the rooms. In other words, since they had "paid for" the room, even though they weren't using it, they wouldn't give up the key.

Despite all the wonderful experiences I've had on the Camino in past years, I'm feeling "done."
It's hard to smile and stay positive in the face of increasing rudeness and self-centeredness.

Where is the Camino Spirit?
Oh, it's there, but you have to peel back layers to see it much anymore, in my experience.

I obviously don't do well with "difficult people" - aka people who are SUPPOSED to be adults but act like spoiled children. They wear me down and I'm just past the age of wanting to deal with their crap.
So I should retire, I'm thinking.

I'll be glad when the Camino is no longer a fad and pilgrims instead of tourists return to walk.
But then, it's said you can never go back..
Shame, that...

Sorry for venting, but I needed to get it out.

I feel like starting a campaign or writing a book about all the BAD THINGS that happen on the Camino just to get the traffic down.

:::crawling into a hole:::

Do you feel in need counselling or therapy it might help...

 

[MTtoCamino]

Not sure what you mean?
We HAVE thought of not accepting people who our problem clients have suggested ::cackle::: though not sure how fair that would be.

Yes the equality factor... I am making an assumption when you put a group together you could make a statement prior to leaving that do to cultural & social reasons your business has the responsibility to ask the client(s) to fill out a questionnaire. I have little doubt an attorney who specializes in contract liability would have to look it over & refine. Just think of Trump as a client Just saying...

 

[Anniesantiago]

Do you feel in need counselling or therapy it might help...

Are you a Camino therapist?

 

[NicP]

Hey Annie, I feel sad for you, reading this post. It sounds as if, as people above have mentioned, that by both mixing business with something you love, and by making the Camino accessible to people who might not otherwise get there, you're encountering more than your fair share of muppets. It's just my speculation, but perhaps this is what happens when people who want an organised group activity instead of choosing to being open to a more unique and individually driven experience end up on the Camino? As people have said elsewhere in the forum, the Camino you get is the one you need, not necessarily the one you want - however, it sounds like what you describe is at least in part driven by people feeling entitled to "get what they paid for", or perhaps feeling entitled to behave however they want to, since they've paid for the privilege? I'm just guessing, based on my own preconceived ideas and experiences of tour groups of various types...

Somebody above suggested a pre-camino questionnaire - great idea! There is probably some kind of brief, freely available and validated psychometric that measures empathy verses antisocial personality traits out there... that might give you at least a clue as to who your potential clients are (or might be) before you agree to take them on? From what you're described above, it sounds like selfishness and a lack of empathy are the main issues you encounter in badly behaved group members? A questionnaire would at least allow you to screen people a little. It wouldn't weed out all the muppets, but it might be a start.

You could also consider getting your clients to read something brief about the "spirit of the Camino" (what ever that is, its probably NOT exemplified by what you describe in your post above), as well as listing the issues you've encountered above and explaining why they don't fit with what you and your business are trying to deliver to clients. That might allow the muppets an opportunity to self-identify, and go elsewhere. Having made that stuff explicit, you might then be able to say that if people demonstrate that they're just not getting it, then you have the right to ask them to leave, at your discretion (and without the right to claim a refund)?

I don't know - all that sounds pretty overbearing, now I read it, and not really in keeping with the idea that I have about what the Camino is.... but I guess my idea of what the Camino is doesn't really include group tours.

Perhaps what you need to to walk a solo Camino again and take some time out from the business, re-evaluate and decide what next?

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

Are you a Camino therapist?

I remember seeing a psychotherapist's sign in SJPdP on the way out of town and wondering if I was being sent a message.
We are often told that if we find work in something we truly love then we really are never 'working' and I've found this to be true...
If we could screen for insufferable jerks there would be less pain in the world, and I'd have missed out on a lot of stuff. I think the OP warns people, but like I said in the thread on the fire at finisterre--self entitlement rarely reads/listens, and is becoming more common that I'd like to see in the world. In my experience even walkers walking solo can be afflicted, while some in groups are the model of gratitude and humble behavior.
I think what the OP writes about exists, I think self entitled jerks may ruin opportunities for those who follow, and rather than therapy she may just need a paintball gun.

 

[MichaelB10398]

The trials of working with the public are unending and constant.

My friends laugh at me often because I almost always wear Hawaiian shirts regardless of where I go in the world or the event. However, for me it aids me in keeping an open mind, to not take myself or anyone else too seriously, and to enjoy each moment - it helps keep me balanced in other words.

It takes a special sort of person to work with the public; it is not for everyone. Too often those who work with the public turn very caustic and/or cynical. It is a challenge to maintain a healthy disposition or perspective.

Thankfully, my interactions with the public at large are not demanded by anything other than my desire to serve others. This also helps me maintain a positive attitude.

There has often been debates about the definition or meaning of what a true pilgrim is and is not. Annie, you see the difference and it is glaring. Tourists can be very enjoyable and I am grateful that the Camino welcomes all, but I am one that says prayers often for pilgrims and for those who serve them. I am a weak, selfish individual, which I freely admit. Oh, let me be surrounded by pilgrims...enough and yet, help me to learn to still enjoy those with hard, demanding, impatient, unkind hearts who are at least trying to find the Camino Spirit that has called them to come.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Somebody above suggested a pre-camino questionnaire - great idea! There is probably some kind of brief, freely available and validated psychometric that measures empathy verses antisocial personality traits out there... that might give you at least a clue as to who your potential clients are (or might be) before you agree to take them on?

I don't know if this is a good idea or not but if you do do something like this you could say that it is to get a compatible group. Just don't say it is to get a group compatible with the camino ways.

 

[NicP]

I don't know if this is a good idea or not but if you do do something like this you could say that it is to get a compatible group. Just don't say it is to get a group compatible with the camino ways.

Agreed!

 

[Anniesantiago]

Perhaps what you need to to walk a solo Camino again and take some time out from the business, re-evaluate and decide what next?

Hi Nic. Actually, we do tell them about the Camino Spirit and we do say we can boot them for bad behavior.
I actually threatened the late-arrival person with booting - it helped a little.
Maybe I'm just having a bad day
MOST people in my groups are lovely.
Just seems there's "one of those" in each group who fits one of the above mentioned descriptions.
At any rate, thanks to everyone for listening.
Dang, it felt good to get it off my chest.

I am taking a break.
I took one year before last, then really didn't enjoy this year's Camino.
It may just be time to let it go.
Though I would like to do one more on my own, alone, at my own pace, with nobody to care for but myself. Oh, yes, and take my watercolors!
::sigh::
That sounds sooooo nice.
But I think I'll wait a few years and see if it gets quiet again.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

IMHO, the Camino de Santiago is not designed for organized tourist groups. It's a pilgrimage, a long, spiritual walk with lots of simplicity and introspection. Trying to fit a gang of deluxe tourists into those confines is going to be pretty impossible. You've brought the Mickey Mouse Club to an ancient holy site. No wonder you're frustrated.

 

[Anniesantiago]

IMHO, the Camino de Santiago is not designed for organized tourist groups. It's a pilgrimage, a long, spiritual walk with lots of simplicity and introspection. Trying to fit a gang of deluxe tourists into those confines is going to be pretty impossible. You've brought the Mickey Mouse Club to an ancient holy site. No wonder you're frustrated.

Yeah... you may be right. . . it CAN be like the Mickey Mouse Club, depending on the people in the group. I have had WONDERFUL groups of PILGRIMS, as well, and probably more of those than the others. Unfortunately, it is "the others" who leave the bad taste in one's mouth.

And I'm editing this post because you are SO right, but what can be done about it?
It is now a tourist destination, and some of that is the fault of people like me.
I long for a simpler Camino with fewer people who are grateful for what they get.

It was interesting serving at San Anton, Rebecca, because THOSE were the types of pilgrims we met. I would give them the spiel, " We have no hot water, (they'd nod), no heat (they'd nod), and no internet (they'd run out the gate!)" The ones who stayed longed for a quiet, simple rest. They were the ones meant for San Anton, and all appreciated its beauty and simplicity. It was a sweet sweet experience.

I think I need to go on pilgrimage to do penance for all these sinful feelings about others.
Or maybe I'll just go eat a bowl of ice cream and buy a paint gun.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

I almost always wear Hawaiian shirts regardless of where I go in the world

Then why should this forum be the exception?

 

[Deleted member 36903]

Mark Lee makes an important point about walking alone - which I did - which makes you personally responsible for all the decisions you make and the attitudes you manifest. In such a situation it is simply not rational to act like a child and make others the target of your frustrations or exhaustion. Having chosen to walk the Camino you just get on with it unless circumstances such as injury or illness intervene to bring the Camino to a temporary halt. Also walking alone emphasises a person's sense of vulnerability, but in the very best way, because it alerts you to your reliance on the kindness of strangers should you find yourself in difficulties.

NicP's post has much in it to agree with initially, especially the attitude of getting what you paid for. But I have a problem with the notion of potential pilgrims being appraised of the "spirit of the Camino" and needing to bear that (whatever 'that' may be) in mind in advance of arriving at wherever will be their starting place. You see I think that a confusion arises between the Camino as geography and the Camino as experience. A pilgrim/walker might start out expecting a spiritual encounter because the geography has been is designated as having an integral spirit that people will encounter if they walk this route - this builds expectations of the what and how of the matter (or non-matter). I can only speak from personal experience, but it would have been impossible for me to have understood in advance of my arriving in SJPDP just what that experience would be and i am certain it could never be repeated, that was then and this is now. Isn't it sometimes a random coming together of circumstances - or 'grace' might be the appropriate word, if you share the Christian faith - just like the falling of the dice, because of the decisions made we meet people for a short while who can become lifetime friends, a bonding we might have missed if, for example, we had stopped at an albergue in Ledigos and not ploughed on through rain and wind to arrive in Sahagun wet, bedraggled and forlorn only to be welcomed into the cavernous albergue there by a peregrina offering a steaming cup of tea, and being advised which showers had the hottest water by a peregrino you had met and walked with for a few kilometres earlier. Serendipity, getting accustomed to - even embracing - not having control over external factors are all part of the "spirit of the Camino". How can you explain to anyone who has never walked the Way that it may be through an unexpected event in the most mundane of situations that this spirit (and by this I am not referring to anything supernatural but to a heightened consciousness and emotional openness) makes itself known.

 

[Phil W]

VENT WARNING. If you don't want to hear it, pass on this post.
I'm in a bad mood and probably will delete this when I get over it.
But for now, I need to say it.

I think the straw that broke the camel's back has fallen.
It may seem like such a small thing, but . . .

Please.

If you don't understand how to work Spanish washing machines, DON'T TOUCH THEM!

They are MUCH different from our machines in the USA.
It is not uncommon for a cycle to be longer than 1 hour, unlike our 20 minute cycles.
Forcing the door open mid-cycle CAN BREAK THE MACHINE, resulting in expensive repairs or replacement.

I have heard complaints from SEVERAL owners about pilgrims breaking the machine.
Even with signs up in English, people ignore them.
WTF!???
One albergue (Santa Celia) closed their kitchen for at least one season because the washer had been forced open and broken twice. Who cares? The pilgrims coming in from Jaca who have no place to cook their food or wash their clothes!

I have just had the experience of a group leader and lodging OWNER asking that the pilgrims do not try to operate their machine. The owner had stayed an extra hour and a half waiting for a rude pilgrim who sat at the bar and drank instead knowing she was waiting to put his wash in.

She finally had to go make dinner for her own family. The group leader was given instructions on how to operate the BRAND NEW MACHINE and asked the pilgrims to please not touch the machine, but ask for help.

THEY AGREED.

The group leader starts the machine, goes to make a sandwich and comes back to find the washer door forced open and people stuffing more clothes in. Luckily he got it to work again.

This is a place where we have developed a very good relationship with the owners. It would be a shame if that were ruined by spoiled, irresponsible tourists.

Rude, demanding, ignorant, and self-absorbed people are on the rise on the Camino, in my opinion.
And I've heard several albergue owners comment that the money just isn't worth putting up with the foolishness.

Ours is a budget trip. For the amount of time I put in planning, making reservations, and emailing group members, I end up making less than minimum wage. You couldn't stay 5 nights in an American hotel for what people pay for 3 weeks paid lodging with us (and many other groups). And as many nice people as I've had on my trips, it seems there's always one who threatens to ruin it for everyone. I'm just about worn out.

• I have had a woman throw a tantrum and slam her suitcase all over antique furniture because she was tired.
• I've had a woman leave Orisson at 9 am and not get into Roncesvalles until 9:45 pm, never thinking about the rest of the group worrying sick if she'd fallen off a cliff. Everyone else arrived by 2 pm. This went on until I threatened to boot her off the trip and cancel her lodging reservations.
• I've had a man hang his dripping muddy wet raincoat on priceless antiques in a casa rural.
• One guy came in drunk late at night and started a blazing fire in the fireplace, then went to bed leaving it burning. The hostess and her help had to come down and put out the fire, leading to no more firewood being left for pilgrims.
• I watched an American man and his daughter START a fight and punch another pilgrim because the daughter lied about what was happening. If there had not been a mattress on the floor, the 2d man would have been dead, his head hit so hard on the floor.
• I've had a woman who insisted she spoke Spanish be extremely rude to taxi drivers and hotel workers, embarrassing me and making me want to crawl into a hole.
• I've had a woman scream in my face because she was unhappy about taxi service.
• I've had a woman call me in a panic and insist I hurry and get to a village because she couldn't find her lodging. I caught a taxi and found her drinking Sangria in the square with her friends - she stayed there until after 9 pm.
• I've had people insist on carrying 50 pounds too much, buy nick-nacks in nearly every village, increasing their weight, and refuse to pay pack transport, instead asking their fellow pilgrims to carry their excess weight, making other group members very uncomfortable to say no.
• After MANY warnings in the written material I send out, I've had several people get angry because I've told my group leaders NOT to carry their heavy packs up stairs. I can't risk my group leader getting hurt and people just refuse to pack light.
• I've had people complain the rooms were too small, too big, too hot, too cold, blah blah blah. The compared the pilgrim rooms at San Martin Pinario to jail cells. Really???
• I've had people LEAVE their room at SMP to go to a different hotel, and refuse to check out and leave the key for other pilgrims who needed the rooms. In other words, since they had "paid for" the room, even though they weren't using it, they wouldn't give up the key.

Despite all the wonderful experiences I've had on the Camino in past years, I'm feeling "done."
It's hard to smile and stay positive in the face of increasing rudeness and self-centeredness.

Where is the Camino Spirit?
Oh, it's there, but you have to peel back layers to see it much anymore, in my experience.

I obviously don't do well with "difficult people" - aka people who are SUPPOSED to be adults but act like spoiled children. They wear me down and I'm just past the age of wanting to deal with their crap.
So I should retire, I'm thinking.

I'll be glad when the Camino is no longer a fad and pilgrims instead of tourists return to walk.
But then, it's said you can never go back..
Shame, that...

Sorry for venting, but I needed to get it out.

I feel like starting a campaign or writing a book about all the BAD THINGS that happen on the Camino just to get the traffic down.

:::crawling into a hole:::

Annie,

You don't know me but I know you through your posts and blog. I want you to know that what you have written helped me as I walked this last summer. Janet (my wonderful wife) and I walked the Camino Frances for spiritual reasons. We took our time and I treasure the experience. Although I saw some people who are described above, we were able to avoid them in most cases. My memories are of the wonderful caring people we met along the way. You are a part of those wonderful memories though your writings. Whether you retire or not is a decision for you to make. I wanted you to know about the positive impact you have had in my first Camino.

You are important to many more people than you know.

Phil

 

[Tincatinker]

I think that a confusion arises between the Camino as geography and the Camino as experience

Beautifully put @SEB. I would choose to add to that: that there is a confusion between The Camino and camino, The Pilgrimage and pilgrimage. That which cannot be packaged and sold is packaged and sold in simulacrum to customers who do not know what or even why they are buying.

No criticism of Annie here. She has tried to open the camino to those who might not otherwise have been there. That the Disneylanders have seized her open hand is not her fault. That Volvo Executive Management Teams think donativo means free is not the fault of the Parochial Albergue de Santiago in Logrono. That tiny pueblos in the arse-end of the Meseta cannot afford to build flushing toilets with an infinite supply of super-soft is not their fault. But the confusion remains, and until we can convince enough people that The Camino is actually just a way to a little learning and not a Way to Glory it will be ever so.

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

I know I am in the minority with this belief, but I do not see tour groups as the cause of self-entitlement, nor even the prime example. Admitting to an infinitesimally small 'n' in my experience, behavior like the OP listed was seen more frequently displayed not by those walking in a group, but rather individual/self-group walkers (I suspect a moderating influence was exerted by the tour group leader over group members, but no controls were done). While the trend was those walking solo or in self-made small groups were the worst offenders, a smaller sub-group (those carrying their own packs) accounted for the greatest increase in those behaviors listed above (possibly as a result of a sense of special status as a 'true pilgrim' although this could not be clearly defined). The 'outliers' in high belief in this as a religious pilgrimage, rather than a hike, were found predominantly in the tour group category. It should be noted again, the small size of 'n,' and that p was greater than 0.10 in all cases.
...off to wash paint ball splats off of my car and backpack...

 

[Hiawatha]

As manufactured and overdone as it is ' Desiderata ' has much to take notice of . One line ;
'' Avoid loud and aggressive persons,
they are vexations to the spirit.'' comes to mind .
Your position as a guide precludes you from this avoidance , this is what drags at and erodes , generosity and spiritual resilience .
I think that the rules of footcare could probably be used as an analogy for the type of fatigue you are feeling .
Rest , Ice , Care , Elevation .
Rest and take a break , put Ice in your favourite drink , Care about yourself just a little more than everyone else and lastly try to Elevate your spirit to somewhere near the height it once reached .

 

[spursfan]

Yeah... you may be right. . . it IS like the Mickey Mouse Club.

And I'm editing this post because you are SO right, but what can be done about it?
It is now a tourist destination, and some of that is the fault of people like me.
I long for a simpler Camino with fewer people who are grateful for what they get.

It was interesting serving at San Anton, Rebecca, because THOSE were the types of pilgrims we met. I would give them the spiel, " We have no hot water, (they'd nod), no heat (they'd nod), and no internet (they'd run out the gate!)" The ones who stayed longed for a quiet, simple rest. They were the ones meant for San Anton, and all appreciated its beauty and simplicity. It was a sweet sweet experience.

I think I need to go on pilgrimage to do penance for all these sinful feelings about others.
Or maybe I'll just go eat a bowl of ice cream and buy a paint gun.

You're much too harsh on yourself

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Please DO NOT DELETE this post. It shows perfectly what happens with the "it's my Camino" mindset, and why so many of us miss the Frances but will not walk it again.

This post is a mirror that will hopefully prevent this type of behaviour, by letting future Camino tourists understand how ugly certain behaviour is, and its impact.

And perhaps it shows how the Camino has started to want to be helpful to pilgrims by offering washing machines, taxis, etc. and yet has created a high maintenance market that is bitting it in the rear.

I am so sorry you have had to deal with this as I know that you need these clients to be able to walk the Camino yourself, as per past posts. I don't know how you select your clients, or if you have enough demand to screen them, but if you have enough demand hike your prices, for yourself, and put them through the wringer to get a spot on your trip. Full questionnaire about why the Camino, why you should pick them, etc., just like dog breeders do when placing a puppy in a good home. Make them work for your expertise, knowledge and care.

Ok, on the washing machine bit, and a lighter note... The albergue in Rates has one, and it takes for EVER, but even the hospy doesn't know how it works. No wonder the Albergue de la Abuela does your laundry for you rather than risk us breaking expensive machines.

To albergues, ditch the washing machines, we can all wash by hands, but please invest in dryers. Those we can't break, as they can be opened at any point in the cycle.

 

[Penny Kingma]

It's hard seeing this out there on the Camino. I loved the quiet of my early sunrise watching starts. ( and before you say it. I would prepack my bag the night before. I'd take my sleeping bag and pack in the bathroom . Not even people in the bunk above were disturbed ) One morning going through a little village I came apon a small group of pilgrims. It was about 6 am and they were singing almost screaming as they walked through the village. I approached them and pleasantly suggested they tone it down as it was very early. They called me some very foul language and got louder. I stated that we are guests in this country and should show respect. One turned and said she intended to have fun and could do what ever she damn well pleased. Yes that was the women of the group. They carried on screaming all the louder but now about me. Maybe I was wrong stepping in...I just thought of these people trying to sleep. Unfortunately there will always be negative people in positive situations. Sometimes all you can do is set a positive example and hope it spreads.

 

[Penny Kingma]

A friend has remarked that each driver should be issued a paint ball gun with five pellets. Drivers would shoot any car that does something monumentally wrong. When police see a car with five or more paint marks they pull over the driver and take away their license. Maybe something like that could be adapted for walkers on the Camino.

Three strikes your sent to Disney instead

 

[Anniesantiago]

Annie,

You don't know me but I know you through your posts and blog. I want you to know that what you have written helped me as I walked this last summer. Janet (my wonderful wife) and I walked the Camino Frances for spiritual reasons. We took our time and I treasure the experience. Although I saw some people who are described above, we were able to avoid them in most cases. My memories are of the wonderful caring people we met along the way. You are a part of those wonderful memories though your writings. Whether you retire or not is a decision for you to make. I wanted you to know about the positive impact you have had in my first Camino.

You are important to many more people than you know.

Phil

Thanks so much Phil.
It means a lot to hear.

 

[Anniesantiago]

It's hard seeing this out there on the Camino. I loved the quiet of my early sunrise watching starts. ( and before you say it. I would prepack my bag the night before. I'd take my sleeping bag and pack in the bathroom . Not even people in the bunk above were disturbed ) One morning going through a little village I came apon a small group of pilgrims. It was about 6 am and they were singing almost screaming as they walked through the village. I approached them and pleasantly suggested they tone it down as it was very early. They called me some very foul language and got louder. I stated that we are guests in this country and should show respect. One turned and said she intended to have fun and could do what ever she damn well pleased. Yes that was the women of the group. They carried on screaming all the louder but now about me. Maybe I was wrong stepping in...I just thought of these people trying to sleep. Unfortunately there will always be negative people in positive situations. Sometimes all you can do is set a positive example and hope it spreads.

Penny, I know exactly what you experienced. Been there, done that, and it's the type of behavior that brings me so far down.
Thank you for posting this.
Perhaps it will make people realize that when they walk the Camino, they are walking through people's REAL TIME LIVES and it would pay to be considerate. I doubt it though. The type of person that would do this would probably only understand and respond to a quick slap upside the head, and unfortunately, these days that would land the old slapper in jail. ::cackle::

 

[gerardcarey]

Reminds me of a meeting early on in my hospitality career.
I'd come up thru the family hotel business and been targeted as a likely hotel manager. For interest's sake I'd allowed myself to be interviewed at a conference by a group of senior officials from various large hotel chains.
"What would you do," I was asked, "if an arriving male businessman, who'd had a bad day, arrived and was obnoxious and rude to your front desk staff?"

I knew the answer required of course. It goes as follows.
"I would approach calmly, inquire as to the problem, offer the guest a lounge chair and a complimentary drink while I attended to the problem."

But I replied as follows.
"I would grasp the person by the scruff of the neck and the seat of his pants and run him out thru the front door and deposit him outside, along with his luggage and my very best wishes in finding somewhere else to stay the night. In fact I have done this on more than one occasion. I will not, and will never do business with rude arrogant people who mistreat my staff."

Suffice to say the large hotel chains and I never really saw eye to eye on the matter. They couldn't possibly employ a guy like me, and I couldn't possibly work for a company that held their views.

Sock it to em Annie!
Regards
Gerard

PS
A complimentary drink? He'd get a complimentary clip round the ear.

 

[Penny Kingma]

Penny, I know exactly what you experienced. Been there, done that, and it's the type of behavior that brings me so far down.
Thank you for posting this.
Perhaps it will make people realize that when they walk the Camino, they are walking through people's REAL TIME LIVES and it would pay to be considerate. I doubt it though. The type of person that would do this would probably only understand and respond to a quick slap upside the head, and unfortunately, these days that would land the old slapper in jail. ::cackle::

What bothered me is I allowed their behaviour to ruin that day for me...they don't realize or care of the ripple effect they create. Stay positive and don't let those ripples hit you.

 

[C clearly]

I think anytime you mix in business with something you love you will witness ugly more.

I very much doubt that there are more obnoxious people on the Camino than in normal life, but it matters more to you.

I would be miserable as a group leader or hospitalero because I have little patience for such misbehaviour and smoke would be rising from my head. Furthermore, I would feel implicated every time one of my clients was out-of-line. I suspect that is part of what adds to your bad feelings.

 

[Hiawatha]

Penny the behaviour of those foul mouths seems to be symptomatic of the ' Entitled Generation ' it is a shame you had to experience it like you did .
What is it with this increasing number of self centred people that don't give a damn about anyone else ? I see it every day , I sometimes ; in my darker moments , wonder if this is some premonition of impending doom and these callous hedonists are trying to party before the ' end ' .
I bought a lottery ticket the other day , the mentally challenged young woman at the counter had a little trouble tendering her payment . Two young , fit , well dressed women behind her started railing at her to hurry . Flustered she became even less able so I intervened . So sorry was I ! Abuse second to none , even at 60 years of age I blushed at being called an old ' Perv ', these women knew how to play every race , gender and discrimination trick imaginable .
Fortunately for me and the poor benighted young woman the shopkeeper sent them packing , still I sometimes despair at the thought that things are so easy for some that the needs and considerations of others are nothing to them .

 

[Penny Kingma]

It shocks you to the core.
Luckily the negative people were not out numbered by the amazing, thoughtful pilgrims I met. I'm a 52 year old mother of 5 grandmother of 6 and a slow moving pilgrim. I walked with, laughed with, shared meals with, assisted by and assisted people young and old. People from all walks of life, religion, life choices or beliefs. We hugged, we laughed, we cried....together. I would return tomorrow and do it all again. And pray I do

 

[CaminoDebrita]

VENT WARNING. If you don't want to hear it, pass on this post.
I'm in a bad mood and probably will delete this when I get over it.
But for now, I need to say it.

I think the straw that broke the camel's back has fallen.
It may seem like such a small thing, but . . .

Please.

If you don't understand how to work Spanish washing machines, DON'T TOUCH THEM!

They are MUCH different from our machines in the USA.
It is not uncommon for a cycle to be longer than 1 hour, unlike our 20 minute cycles.
Forcing the door open mid-cycle CAN BREAK THE MACHINE, resulting in expensive repairs or replacement.

I have heard complaints from SEVERAL owners about pilgrims breaking the machine.
Even with signs up in English, people ignore them.
WTF!???
One albergue (Santa Celia) closed their kitchen for at least one season because the washer had been forced open and broken twice. Who cares? The pilgrims coming in from Jaca who have no place to cook their food or wash their clothes!

I have just had the experience of a group leader and lodging OWNER asking that the pilgrims do not try to operate their machine. The owner had stayed an extra hour and a half waiting for a rude pilgrim who sat at the bar and drank instead knowing she was waiting to put his wash in.

She finally had to go make dinner for her own family. The group leader was given instructions on how to operate the BRAND NEW MACHINE and asked the pilgrims to please not touch the machine, but ask for help.

THEY AGREED.

The group leader starts the machine, goes to make a sandwich and comes back to find the washer door forced open and people stuffing more clothes in. Luckily he got it to work again.

This is a place where we have developed a very good relationship with the owners. It would be a shame if that were ruined by spoiled, irresponsible tourists.

Rude, demanding, ignorant, and self-absorbed people are on the rise on the Camino, in my opinion.
And I've heard several albergue owners comment that the money just isn't worth putting up with the foolishness.

Ours is a budget trip. For the amount of time I put in planning, making reservations, and emailing group members, I end up making less than minimum wage. You couldn't stay 5 nights in an American hotel for what people pay for 3 weeks paid lodging with us (and many other groups). And as many nice people as I've had on my trips, it seems there's always one who threatens to ruin it for everyone. I'm just about worn out.

• I have had a woman throw a tantrum and slam her suitcase all over antique furniture because she was tired.
• I've had a woman leave Orisson at 9 am and not get into Roncesvalles until 9:45 pm, never thinking about the rest of the group worrying sick if she'd fallen off a cliff. Everyone else arrived by 2 pm. This went on until I threatened to boot her off the trip and cancel her lodging reservations.
• I've had a man hang his dripping muddy wet raincoat on priceless antiques in a casa rural.
• One guy came in drunk late at night and started a blazing fire in the fireplace, then went to bed leaving it burning. The hostess and her help had to come down and put out the fire, leading to no more firewood being left for pilgrims.
• I watched an American man and his daughter START a fight and punch another pilgrim because the daughter lied about what was happening. If there had not been a mattress on the floor, the 2d man would have been dead, his head hit so hard on the floor.
• I've had a woman who insisted she spoke Spanish be extremely rude to taxi drivers and hotel workers, embarrassing me and making me want to crawl into a hole.
• I've had a woman scream in my face because she was unhappy about taxi service.
• I've had a woman call me in a panic and insist I hurry and get to a village because she couldn't find her lodging. I caught a taxi and found her drinking Sangria in the square with her friends - she stayed there until after 9 pm.
• I've had people insist on carrying 50 pounds too much, buy nick-nacks in nearly every village, increasing their weight, and refuse to pay pack transport, instead asking their fellow pilgrims to carry their excess weight, making other group members very uncomfortable to say no.
• After MANY warnings in the written material I send out, I've had several people get angry because I've told my group leaders NOT to carry their heavy packs up stairs. I can't risk my group leader getting hurt and people just refuse to pack light.
• I've had people complain the rooms were too small, too big, too hot, too cold, blah blah blah. The compared the pilgrim rooms at San Martin Pinario to jail cells. Really???
• I've had people LEAVE their room at SMP to go to a different hotel, and refuse to check out and leave the key for other pilgrims who needed the rooms. In other words, since they had "paid for" the room, even though they weren't using it, they wouldn't give up the key.

Despite all the wonderful experiences I've had on the Camino in past years, I'm feeling "done."
It's hard to smile and stay positive in the face of increasing rudeness and self-centeredness.

Where is the Camino Spirit?
Oh, it's there, but you have to peel back layers to see it much anymore, in my experience.

I obviously don't do well with "difficult people" - aka people who are SUPPOSED to be adults but act like spoiled children. They wear me down and I'm just past the age of wanting to deal with their crap.
So I should retire, I'm thinking.

I'll be glad when the Camino is no longer a fad and pilgrims instead of tourists return to walk.
But then, it's said you can never go back..
Shame, that...

Sorry for venting, but I needed to get it out.

I feel like starting a campaign or writing a book about all the BAD THINGS that happen on the Camino just to get the traffic down.

:::crawling into a hole:::

The best experience on Camino de Santiago is a SOLO experience.

All it takes is one rude companion to ruin a trip. Been there, done that, will never do it again.

 

[Penny Kingma]

The best experience on Camino de Santiago is a SOLO experience.

All it takes is one rude companion to ruin a trip. Been there, done that, will never do it again.

Oh No !
Please tell me I'm reading this Wrong.
Are you saying that because of this behaviour you would not return to the Camino ?

 

[CaminoDebrita]

Oh No !
Please tell me I'm reading this Wrong.
Are you saying that because of this behaviour you would not return to the Camino ?

No, no! I've been on Camino twice, and just got back from Scotland--the W. Highland Way!
But I would not go with or lead a large group. I would never want to deal with a bunch of folks with expectations--many of which could be unrealistic.

 

[CaminoDebrita]

Oh No !
Please tell me I'm reading this Wrong.
Are you saying that because of this behaviour you would not return to the Camino ?

I'm a pilgrim for life I think you are too!

 

[C clearly]

I'm a pilgrim for life I think you are too!

The best experience on Camino de Santiago is a SOLO experience.
All it takes is one rude companion to ruin a trip. Been there, done that, will never do it again.

I SO agree. However, I love the idea of walking independently at the same time as like-minded others.

 

[Penny Kingma]

Oh thank goodness ! I agree I left Canada alone to walk the Camino. Even though I walked alone... I walked with others at times....the choice was mine. It was so freeing to just go as the wind blows. I cherish the friendships made...and somehow the going at my own pace...meeting up again by chance along the way....made it so special...and even though I didn't travel with a group...the group Of individuals I met felt like family.

 

[Penny Kingma]

I'm a pilgrim for life I think you are too!

I think before I left for my Camino on May 27. 2016 I had viewed pictures of you looking like a very wet, cold, pilgrim. I remember expressing to my husband that I'd hate that. He ran out and got me a big rain poncho. I didn't know you but felt your pain. You posting that picture urged me to get that poncho, it kept my pack and I dry...so I'd like to say thank you friend.
Buen Camino

 

[Teresa Santamaria]

VENT WARNING. If you don't want to hear it, pass on this post.
I'm in a bad mood and probably will delete this when I get over it.
But for now, I need to say it.

I think the straw that broke the camel's back has fallen.
It may seem like such a small thing, but . . .

Please.

If you don't understand how to work Spanish washing machines, DON'T TOUCH THEM!

They are MUCH different from our machines in the USA.
It is not uncommon for a cycle to be longer than 1 hour, unlike our 20 minute cycles.
Forcing the door open mid-cycle CAN BREAK THE MACHINE, resulting in expensive repairs or replacement.

I have heard complaints from SEVERAL owners about pilgrims breaking the machine.
Even with signs up in English, people ignore them.
WTF!???
One albergue (Santa Celia) closed their kitchen for at least one season because the washer had been forced open and broken twice. Who cares? The pilgrims coming in from Jaca who have no place to cook their food or wash their clothes!

I have just had the experience of a group leader and lodging OWNER asking that the pilgrims do not try to operate their machine. The owner had stayed an extra hour and a half waiting for a rude pilgrim who sat at the bar and drank instead knowing she was waiting to put his wash in.

She finally had to go make dinner for her own family. The group leader was given instructions on how to operate the BRAND NEW MACHINE and asked the pilgrims to please not touch the machine, but ask for help.

THEY AGREED.

The group leader starts the machine, goes to make a sandwich and comes back to find the washer door forced open and people stuffing more clothes in. Luckily he got it to work again.

This is a place where we have developed a very good relationship with the owners. It would be a shame if that were ruined by spoiled, irresponsible tourists.

Rude, demanding, ignorant, and self-absorbed people are on the rise on the Camino, in my opinion.
And I've heard several albergue owners comment that the money just isn't worth putting up with the foolishness.

Ours is a budget trip. For the amount of time I put in planning, making reservations, and emailing group members, I end up making less than minimum wage. You couldn't stay 5 nights in an American hotel for what people pay for 3 weeks paid lodging with us (and many other groups). And as many nice people as I've had on my trips, it seems there's always one who threatens to ruin it for everyone. I'm just about worn out.

• I have had a woman throw a tantrum and slam her suitcase all over antique furniture because she was tired.
• I've had a woman leave Orisson at 9 am and not get into Roncesvalles until 9:45 pm, never thinking about the rest of the group worrying sick if she'd fallen off a cliff. Everyone else arrived by 2 pm. This went on until I threatened to boot her off the trip and cancel her lodging reservations.
• I've had a man hang his dripping muddy wet raincoat on priceless antiques in a casa rural.
• One guy came in drunk late at night and started a blazing fire in the fireplace, then went to bed leaving it burning. The hostess and her help had to come down and put out the fire, leading to no more firewood being left for pilgrims.
• I watched an American man and his daughter START a fight and punch another pilgrim because the daughter lied about what was happening. If there had not been a mattress on the floor, the 2d man would have been dead, his head hit so hard on the floor.
• I've had a woman who insisted she spoke Spanish be extremely rude to taxi drivers and hotel workers, embarrassing me and making me want to crawl into a hole.
• I've had a woman scream in my face because she was unhappy about taxi service.
• I've had a woman call me in a panic and insist I hurry and get to a village because she couldn't find her lodging. I caught a taxi and found her drinking Sangria in the square with her friends - she stayed there until after 9 pm.
• I've had people insist on carrying 50 pounds too much, buy nick-nacks in nearly every village, increasing their weight, and refuse to pay pack transport, instead asking their fellow pilgrims to carry their excess weight, making other group members very uncomfortable to say no.
• After MANY warnings in the written material I send out, I've had several people get angry because I've told my group leaders NOT to carry their heavy packs up stairs. I can't risk my group leader getting hurt and people just refuse to pack light.
• I've had people complain the rooms were too small, too big, too hot, too cold, blah blah blah. The compared the pilgrim rooms at San Martin Pinario to jail cells. Really???
• I've had people LEAVE their room at SMP to go to a different hotel, and refuse to check out and leave the key for other pilgrims who needed the rooms. In other words, since they had "paid for" the room, even though they weren't using it, they wouldn't give up the key.

Despite all the wonderful experiences I've had on the Camino in past years, I'm feeling "done."
It's hard to smile and stay positive in the face of increasing rudeness and self-centeredness.

Where is the Camino Spirit?
Oh, it's there, but you have to peel back layers to see it much anymore, in my experience.

I obviously don't do well with "difficult people" - aka people who are SUPPOSED to be adults but act like spoiled children. They wear me down and I'm just past the age of wanting to deal with their crap.
So I should retire, I'm thinking.

I'll be glad when the Camino is no longer a fad and pilgrims instead of tourists return to walk.
But then, it's said you can never go back..
Shame, that...

Sorry for venting, but I needed to get it out.

I feel like starting a campaign or writing a book about all the BAD THINGS that happen on the Camino just to get the traffic down.

:::crawling into a hole:::

Annie, I think you have helped me on my Camino paths and I am thankful for that. Whatever you do, even the vent, even this is important. I was working at my local food cooperative tonight, and a four digit (two of them in fact) had issues with their accounts and anger - 4 digit means they have been member since like, the 70's (I'm a 5 digit albeit an early one)....and I tried with dignity and ensuring my belief in their dignity, to share the situation. In your sitch, I think you can be a peer/partner/colleague, calling a camino member into owning their actions. You are not in the business to be a business. It is because you want to bring the Camino to people who might be fearful to do this on your own. No doubt and I believe with with all certainty, that you have helped many people feel the Camino. Be thy self.

 

[Purple Backpack]

Traveling brings out the worst and best in us....and others.

"Let you look sometimes for the goodness in me, and judge me not."
~Arthur Miller

 

[SYates]

I think one possible solution could be to re-orientate your business closer to those that can't do the Camino alone, for example for health reasons and away from those that won't do it alone, for example for comfort reasons. Might be worth a try, Buen Camino, SY

 

[Anniesantiago]

I started the morning out in a negative state of mind and it took much of the day to work through it. I'm trying to practice being positive and today, well, it just wasn't in me until evening.

My granddaughter is here now and I'm remembering just how much I have to be grateful for.

Thanks to all of you for your kindness and support. And thanks to those who gave me the swift kick I needed.

I love this forum, it's members, and I love the Camino.
Whether or not I'll continue with groups is something I need to ponder.
It's important to me to live life joyfully

Life is much too short to be grouchy.

 

[Hal]

• I've had a woman leave Orisson at 9 am and not get into Roncesvalles until 9:45 pm, never thinking about the rest of the group worrying sick if she'd fallen off a cliff. Everyone else arrived by 2 pm. This went on until Ithreatened to boot her off the trip and cancel her lodging reservations.

I spoke to several who took 14+ hours to reach Roncesvalles!

 

[SYates]

Please don't delete it, it might be a necessary wake-up call for some! Buen Camino, SY

 

[BonitaHolland]

Are you a Camino therapist?

Well now you come to mention it- YES The Camino Counsellor ha ha!

 

[C clearly]

But I think I need a moderator in order to delete the thread, right?

You might know this but you don't need a moderator to delete your own post. Right beside (on the left) of "Report Bookmark" under your post you should see "Edit" and "Delete." However, you can delete your own post but everyone else's replies will still be there, and yours will still show up in the quotation boxes. (This is what happens normally, but it is possible that there is a different rule when your post is the first one in the thread.)

Only a moderator could delete the whole thread, and I don't think you should, anyway! There is nothing wrong with what you said!

 

[Anniesantiago]

I spoke to several who took 14+ hours to reach Roncesvalles!

From Orisson? In my experience that is a 3 to 6 hour walk.

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

I spoke to several who took 14+ hours to reach Roncesvalles!

Where did they begin?
Wish you well, Peter.

 

[Waka]

@Anniesantiago, Thank you for venting, I have enjoyed your posts and the responses, unfortunately in life not everyone is the same and I'm sure that with the thousands doing the CF each year the number of obnoxious pilgrims is a very small percentage. For you it's unfortunate that you get them in your groups.
I'm definitely an advocate of walking alone (also knowing that you are never alone) on the camino. I think in 42 days of walking there was only one time that I had to stop to let some very loud and obnoxious pilgrims/tourist get ahead.

 

[Saint Mike II]

Would either of the original posters please clarify about the 14 hours section. Was this 14 hours from St Jean to Roncesvalles; or from Orison. From what I have read - in a number of guide books 8 hours is about the max it should take someone who was reasonably well prepared. If it took 12+ hours from Orison - did they stop; get lost; whatever??? SO PLEASE if you quote times (that you are specifically aware of) add some clarification. Thanks

 

[Sanchezac]

Hi Annie,
As an Albergue owner and hospitalero - I get it, and sympathize with you. Ive had ridiculous and utterley disrespectful pilgrims come through my door for years, but for the few who spoil the feeling there are many more who are inspirational and lovely in equal measures.
I like to vent though, it clears the air! And the washing machine thing... yep same here - I now keep my wash room under lock and key to avoid pilgrims breaking the washing machine and dryer!
I hope you can see the positives in what you do and go with them whilst letting those bad few know that they are being disrespectful and let them deal with their consciences.

Matt

 

[SYates]

On a very practical matter - your post has finally clarified a mystery to me:

I now understand why hospitaleros were so reluctant to leave me alone with their washing machine and dryer - until I explained that I have been a hospitalera in Spain myself ;-)

The one thing I can't understand is - If you break something - you owe up to it and replace the damage ... personal responsibility for your own actions and not rocket science ...

Buen Camino de la Vida, SY

 

[notion900]

When the Camino was packaged and sold as a Hollywood film it led people to think it should be packaged and sold to them personally.

 

[cete46]

VENT WARNING. If you don't want to hear it, pass on this post.
I'm in a bad mood and probably will delete this when I get over it.
But for now, I need to say it.

I think the straw that broke the camel's back has fallen.
It may seem like such a small thing, but . . .

Please.

If you don't understand how to work Spanish washing machines, DON'T TOUCH THEM!

They are MUCH different from our machines in the USA.
It is not uncommon for a cycle to be longer than 1 hour, unlike our 20 minute cycles.
Forcing the door open mid-cycle CAN BREAK THE MACHINE, resulting in expensive repairs or replacement.

I have heard complaints from SEVERAL owners about pilgrims breaking the machine.
Even with signs up in English, people ignore them.
WTF!???
One albergue (Santa Celia) closed their kitchen for at least one season because the washer had been forced open and broken twice. Who cares? The pilgrims coming in from Jaca who have no place to cook their food or wash their clothes!

I have just had the experience of a group leader and lodging OWNER asking that the pilgrims do not try to operate their machine. The owner had stayed an extra hour and a half waiting for a rude pilgrim who sat at the bar and drank instead knowing she was waiting to put his wash in.

She finally had to go make dinner for her own family. The group leader was given instructions on how to operate the BRAND NEW MACHINE and asked the pilgrims to please not touch the machine, but ask for help.

THEY AGREED.

The group leader starts the machine, goes to make a sandwich and comes back to find the washer door forced open and people stuffing more clothes in. Luckily he got it to work again.

This is a place where we have developed a very good relationship with the owners. It would be a shame if that were ruined by spoiled, irresponsible tourists.

Rude, demanding, ignorant, and self-absorbed people are on the rise on the Camino, in my opinion.
And I've heard several albergue owners comment that the money just isn't worth putting up with the foolishness.

Ours is a budget trip. For the amount of time I put in planning, making reservations, and emailing group members, I end up making less than minimum wage. You couldn't stay 5 nights in an American hotel for what people pay for 3 weeks paid lodging with us (and many other groups). And as many nice people as I've had on my trips, it seems there's always one who threatens to ruin it for everyone. I'm just about worn out.

• I have had a woman throw a tantrum and slam her suitcase all over antique furniture because she was tired.
• I've had a woman leave Orisson at 9 am and not get into Roncesvalles until 9:45 pm, never thinking about the rest of the group worrying sick if she'd fallen off a cliff. Everyone else arrived by 2 pm. This went on until I threatened to boot her off the trip and cancel her lodging reservations.
• I've had a man hang his dripping muddy wet raincoat on priceless antiques in a casa rural.
• One guy came in drunk late at night and started a blazing fire in the fireplace, then went to bed leaving it burning. The hostess and her help had to come down and put out the fire, leading to no more firewood being left for pilgrims.
• I watched an American man and his daughter START a fight and punch another pilgrim because the daughter lied about what was happening. If there had not been a mattress on the floor, the 2d man would have been dead, his head hit so hard on the floor.
• I've had a woman who insisted she spoke Spanish be extremely rude to taxi drivers and hotel workers, embarrassing me and making me want to crawl into a hole.
• I've had a woman scream in my face because she was unhappy about taxi service.
• I've had a woman call me in a panic and insist I hurry and get to a village because she couldn't find her lodging. I caught a taxi and found her drinking Sangria in the square with her friends - she stayed there until after 9 pm.
• I've had people insist on carrying 50 pounds too much, buy nick-nacks in nearly every village, increasing their weight, and refuse to pay pack transport, instead asking their fellow pilgrims to carry their excess weight, making other group members very uncomfortable to say no.
• After MANY warnings in the written material I send out, I've had several people get angry because I've told my group leaders NOT to carry their heavy packs up stairs. I can't risk my group leader getting hurt and people just refuse to pack light.
• I've had people complain the rooms were too small, too big, too hot, too cold, blah blah blah. The compared the pilgrim rooms at San Martin Pinario to jail cells. Really???
• I've had people LEAVE their room at SMP to go to a different hotel, and refuse to check out and leave the key for other pilgrims who needed the rooms. In other words, since they had "paid for" the room, even though they weren't using it, they wouldn't give up the key.

Despite all the wonderful experiences I've had on the Camino in past years, I'm feeling "done."
It's hard to smile and stay positive in the face of increasing rudeness and self-centeredness.

Where is the Camino Spirit?
Oh, it's there, but you have to peel back layers to see it much anymore, in my experience.

I obviously don't do well with "difficult people" - aka people who are SUPPOSED to be adults but act like spoiled children. They wear me down and I'm just past the age of wanting to deal with their crap.
So I should retire, I'm thinking.

I'll be glad when the Camino is no longer a fad and pilgrims instead of tourists return to walk.
But then, it's said you can never go back..
Shame, that...

Sorry for venting, but I needed to get it out.

I feel like starting a campaign or writing a book about all the BAD THINGS that happen on the Camino just to get the traffic down.

:::crawling into a hole:::

 

[SYates]

Is some reason you reposted this?

Most likely inexperience with the forum software ;-) SY

 

[dougfitz]

I now understand why hospitaleros were so reluctant to leave me alone with their washing machine and dryer - until I explained that I have been a hospitalera in Spain myself ;-)

Then there was the time that I thought I had followed the directions on the washing machine exactly, but nothing happened until after I went to find one of the staff, who came and showed me how to turn the power switch on as well!!

 

[patw]

Sympathy goes to you Annie. My friend has a Pension and now offers a laundry service where he deals with the washing himself for a small charge. In general he finds the majority of pilgrims are lovely but there are the occasional inconsiderate people but I suppose it's a reflection of life. Chin up

 

[Phil W]

Thanks so much Phil.
It means a lot to hear.

You're welcome!

 

[Granniesruntoo]

Oh Annie, how sad you must be feeling!
My husband and I have taken three years of two weeks each to walk the Camino. As each section has gone by we have encountered so much more misunderstanding about what the pilgrimage is. This last section, especially from Sarria, we came across more and more people and groups out for a noisy, sociable outing who had no idea about the original purpose of the Camino.
It appears to us, relative newcomers, that it needs to be stressed that this is no ordinary experience and needs to be approached with an entirely different attitude to a package holiday. Maybe it should be a condition of joining an organised group that this is understood and that the feelings of locals who are kind enough to give their time are respected. Something along the lines of what NicP mentions.
Please don't give up on the majority of those who travel the road, they are mostly decent, friendly and compassionate people.

 

[Phil W]

Oh thank goodness ! I agree I left Canada alone to walk the Camino. Even though I walked alone... I walked with others at times....the choice was mine. It was so freeing to just go as the wind blows. I cherish the friendships made...and somehow the going at my own pace...meeting up again by chance along the way....made it so special...and even though I didn't travel with a group...the group Of individuals I met felt like family.

I agree Penny. The meeting and sharing and then meeting again were special. They did feel like family.
Phil

 

[mlhhome]

Please don't DELETE
This or similar articles should be published by every "Friends of the Camino" group and shared by every "tour" company. They should encourage every future pilgrim not to be that selfish or pitiful person. They should educate/enlighten them on the possibilities and realities of being a pilgrim.
As usual, all good and great things created with and for people are misunderstood and often misused by other people. We all must do what we can to help stop this trend.
As I begin my fourth Camino next week, I will personally try to thank every woman, man and child for their efforts to maintain and improve The Way.

Thank you for your courage and telling the truth.

 

[cete46]

Hubby & I wholeheartedly agree with your post!
Carry on girl, RANT AWAY!!!!
We opened our Gite on the GR65 in France in 2004 after following the Camino for the first time in 2003.
As time goes on we are finding that people who stay with us are becoming more and more demanding, wanting 5 star accommodation for one star price and making us feel uncomforable because we are not providing services which they want but which we have never offered.
"What's the code for the wifi?" not "Do you have wifi?".
I have removed the hairdryers from our B&B rooms after finding them being used for drying clothes!
Our washing machines are not in the open area of the laundry room, anyone who wishes a wash load done is given a basket to put their things in & I load & unload the machines myself.
Another unfortunate discovery for us this year has been people leaving here apparently content with their stay and then posting defammatory criticism on blogs,( their own & other peoples') and accommodation websites.
We also feel that the people who arrive with us these days are less likely to be Pilgrims but are just on a walking holiday that happens to be following a pilgrimage route.
As another gite owner said the me last year:-
Tourists demand, Pilgrims say thank-you.

 

[TaijiPilgrim]

Annie, I suspect you are experiencing the end of a long season with your tours. Your vent reminded me of David's recent decision to leave after 7 years. I understand the frustrations of dealing with people who you expect to be pilgrims but turn out to be entitled tourists. When people discover something special about a place or event, they often want to share. They write blogs or publish books, create videos and films, or start services to help others share their experience. Unfortunately, the results can be negative as well as positive - like the double-edged sword of St. James. You have to decide if the positive outweighs the negative for you. But I do know that you have had positive impacts on readers of this forum as well as those you have led on the way. I met Joe and members of his group in 2015. Those folks were pilgrims.

 

[William Garza]

I'm a pilgrim for life I think you are too!

Our wonderful Debra it seems..has had extensive experience dealing with less than idealised..ahhh persons.
But with a Poets Soul, the patience of a Saint and as i could imagin..a comeback for every quip..

 

[Phil W]

Then there was the time that I thought I had followed the directions on the washing machine exactly, but nothing happened until after I went to find one of the staff, who came and showed me how to turn the power switch on as well!!

After trying to follow the directions unsuccessfully, I too asked for help.

 

[t2andreo]

I concur with everything in this thread. But, because I did not read it above, I am compelled to state the classic axiom: "Tourists demand...pilgrims are grateful..."

Once the Camino de Santiago became a feature film and the subject of several relatively recent, and popular books, actually viewed and read by a wide cross-section of people, worldwide, the end result was predictable. Companies and individuals began to organize or offer varying camino services to anyone who could pay the asking price.

Rebekah hit the proverbial nail on the head. So long as the Camino was the purview of the individually motivated pilgrim, we were "safe." Now that we, solo and serious walkers, must contend and compete with "the tourists," the accounts presented above are inevitable. They will get worse.

Even the Pilgrim Office is "guilty" of enabling this phenomenon. Groups who "know the drill," arrive at the office with the group or tour leader carrying all the credentials and the pre-completed statistics capture form used at the counter to record aspects if each pilgrim.

The group never stands in line. Typically, if there are four or more pilgrims, the leader drops off the credentials and the relating form at the group office.

The staff tells the leader what time to return for the group's Compostelas. The group is then free to go, whatever, unencumbered by the necessary arrival details that the solo or couple pilgrims must deal with.

So, the creeping commercialization of the Camino continues. I do not know where it will all end. But, I am getting my walking done while I can.

I have no issue with support services like mochila transport, as long as the individual pilgrim is walking solo, or in train with one or two others. Similarly, helping mobility challenged people realize this dream is worthwhile. My issue is facilitating folks who are "on a lark."

I hope this helps the dialogue.

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

one of the more memorable shoving/shouting matches I saw break out was between two men in the Comillas albergue over using the washer. They were both wrong.

 

[RENSHAW]

@Anniesantiago . Although your post was a rant , I had a good giggle as it reminded me just how demanding and ungrateful some people can be towards organizers , hospitaleros and owners.
During my stint at San Anton we had a towering arrogant cyclist arrive at noon and demand we take him in ...Right Now!
Really?. My college told him that priority was given to walking pilgrims but if we still had beds left at 7pm , cyclists were welcome. He stormed off only to return with his blazing face and had a go at my college's nationality even though he could speak 6 different languages. At this point my little 5 foot frame was ready to send a rather larger pilgrim to the promised land prematurely. He stormed off again , this time slamming our glass door so hard that it was a miricle it held without breaking. I can tell you that ever this guy shows his face again and I am the hospitalero ........
I had to get a little rant in myself Annie?

 

[Anniesantiago]

I've decided to leave the post up.
It appears to have opened up a much-needed discussion and hopefully it will do some good.
I have edited a couple of my posts, however.

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

The group never stands in line. Typically, if there are four or more pilgrims, the leader drops off the credentials and the relating form at the group office.

The staff tells the leader what time to return for the group's Compostelas. The group is then free to go, whatever, unencumbered by the necessary arrival drive ails that the solo or couple pilgrims must deal with.

It may just be me (I have issues standing around in a big target (er, crowd of people) but I for one would not like the entire group standing in line with me, making it stretch five times around the building. I tried to go in a off time and did not wait exceedingly long. I would not like each of 30 (or whatever) stumbling over the questions and digging in their pockets and packs for their credential. but I don't like crowds.

 

[Jen Marsden]

VENT WARNING. If you don't want to hear it, pass on this post.
I'm in a bad mood and probably will delete this when I get over it.
But for now, I need to say it.

I think the straw that broke the camel's back has fallen.
It may seem like such a small thing, but . . .

Please.

If you don't understand how to work Spanish washing machines, DON'T TOUCH THEM!

They are MUCH different from our machines in the USA.
It is not uncommon for a cycle to be longer than 1 hour, unlike our 20 minute cycles.
Forcing the door open mid-cycle CAN BREAK THE MACHINE, resulting in expensive repairs or replacement.

I have heard complaints from SEVERAL owners about pilgrims breaking the machine.
Even with signs up in English, people ignore them.
WTF!???
One albergue (Santa Celia) closed their kitchen for at least one season because the washer had been forced open and broken twice. Who cares? The pilgrims coming in from Jaca who have no place to cook their food or wash their clothes!

I have just had the experience of a group leader and lodging OWNER asking that the pilgrims do not try to operate their machine. The owner had stayed an extra hour and a half waiting for a rude pilgrim who sat at the bar and drank instead knowing she was waiting to put his wash in.

She finally had to go make dinner for her own family. The group leader was given instructions on how to operate the BRAND NEW MACHINE and asked the pilgrims to please not touch the machine, but ask for help.

THEY AGREED.

The group leader starts the machine, goes to make a sandwich and comes back to find the washer door forced open and people stuffing more clothes in. Luckily he got it to work again.

This is a place where we have developed a very good relationship with the owners. It would be a shame if that were ruined by spoiled, irresponsible tourists.

Rude, demanding, ignorant, and self-absorbed people are on the rise on the Camino, in my opinion.
And I've heard several albergue owners comment that the money just isn't worth putting up with the foolishness.

Ours is a budget trip. For the amount of time I put in planning, making reservations, and emailing group members, I end up making less than minimum wage. You couldn't stay 5 nights in an American hotel for what people pay for 3 weeks paid lodging with us (and many other groups). And as many nice people as I've had on my trips, it seems there's always one who threatens to ruin it for everyone. I'm just about worn out.

• I have had a woman throw a tantrum and slam her suitcase all over antique furniture because she was tired.
• I've had a woman leave Orisson at 9 am and not get into Roncesvalles until 9:45 pm, never thinking about the rest of the group worrying sick if she'd fallen off a cliff. Everyone else arrived by 2 pm. This went on until I threatened to boot her off the trip and cancel her lodging reservations.
• I've had a man hang his dripping muddy wet raincoat on priceless antiques in a casa rural.
• One guy came in drunk late at night and started a blazing fire in the fireplace, then went to bed leaving it burning. The hostess and her help had to come down and put out the fire, leading to no more firewood being left for pilgrims.
• I watched an American man and his daughter START a fight and punch another pilgrim because the daughter lied about what was happening. If there had not been a mattress on the floor, the 2d man would have been dead, his head hit so hard on the floor.
• I've had a woman who insisted she spoke Spanish be extremely rude to taxi drivers and hotel workers, embarrassing me and making me want to crawl into a hole.
• I've had a woman scream in my face because she was unhappy about taxi service.
• I've had a woman call me in a panic and insist I hurry and get to a village because she couldn't find her lodging. I caught a taxi and found her drinking Sangria in the square with her friends - she stayed there until after 9 pm.
• I've had people insist on carrying 50 pounds too much, buy nick-nacks in nearly every village, increasing their weight, and refuse to pay pack transport, instead asking their fellow pilgrims to carry their excess weight, making other group members very uncomfortable to say no.
• After MANY warnings in the written material I send out, I've had several people get angry because I've told my group leaders NOT to carry their heavy packs up stairs. I can't risk my group leader getting hurt and people just refuse to pack light.
• I've had people complain the rooms were too small, too big, too hot, too cold, blah blah blah. The compared the pilgrim rooms at San Martin Pinario to jail cells. Really???
• I've had people LEAVE their room at SMP to go to a different hotel, and refuse to check out and leave the key for other pilgrims who needed the rooms. In other words, since they had "paid for" the room, even though they weren't using it, they wouldn't give up the key.

Despite all the wonderful experiences I've had on the Camino in past years, I'm feeling "done."
It's hard to smile and stay positive in the face of increasing rudeness and self-centeredness.

Where is the Camino Spirit?
Oh, it's there, but you have to peel back layers to see it much anymore, in my experience.

I obviously don't do well with "difficult people" - aka people who are SUPPOSED to be adults but act like spoiled children. They wear me down and I'm just past the age of wanting to deal with their crap.
So I should retire, I'm thinking.

I'll be glad when the Camino is no longer a fad and pilgrims instead of tourists return to walk.
But then, it's said you can never go back..
Shame, that...

Sorry for venting, but I needed to get it out.

I feel like starting a campaign or writing a book about all the BAD THINGS that happen on the Camino just to get the traffic down.

:::crawling into a hole:::

So sorry to hear that. What awful actions people can take. I agree with the book idea and could easily build you a website. www.pilgrimsthatiwanttotripwiththeirownsticks.com could be a good idea. Actually maybe .org then you could be a non profit which it sounds like you almost are anyway. You know what is cool though- the amount of positive and funny reactions you've received. Personally I think the 100K minimum is resulting in a lot of unprepared and ill suited pilgrims. I have loved mine (am now 5 days out from Santiago) but have the best relationships with the pilgrims I met that first day up that damn hill out of St Jean or the few days following it. Having those first few days where we were all questioning ourselves has proven to be a lovely bond. Seeing the masses join us in Sarria made us extra glad we did the journey and not the trip. You are one of the people that mean the rest of us get to love it so much. Head up, chest out and give yourself a huge hug.

 

[SabsP]

@Anniesantiago . Although your post was a rant , I had a good giggle as it reminded me just how demanding and ungrateful some people can be towards organizers , hospitaleros and owners.
During my stint at San Anton we had a towering arrogant cyclist arrive at noon and demand we take him in ...Right Now!
Really?. My college told him that priority was given to walking pilgrims but if we still had beds left at 7pm , cyclists were welcome. He stormed off only to return with his blazing face and had a go at my college's nationality even though he could speak 6 different languages. At this point my little 5 foot frame was ready to send a rather lager pilgrim to the promised land prematurely. He stormed off again , this time slamming our glass door so hard that it was a miricle it held without breaking. I can tell you that ever this guy shows his face again and I am the hospitalero ........
I had to get a little rant in myself Annie?

Also interesting to know if the decent and still in the majority of pilgrims intervene when they see one obnoxious pilgrim in a heated debate with a hospi/ volunteer?
I ( thinking of myself as a decent person ) know I did on two occasions ( even tried to calm down the pilgrim by translating...to no avail ) and I will keep doing that when I see foul behaviour from a fellow pilgrim. I still remember the volunteer being at the end of his wits.

 

[Susan Detlefsen]

VENT WARNING. If you don't want to hear it, pass on this post.
I'm in a bad mood and probably will delete this when I get over it.
But for now, I need to say it.

I think the straw that broke the camel's back has fallen.
It may seem like such a small thing, but . . .

Please.

If you don't understand how to work Spanish washing machines, DON'T TOUCH THEM!

They are MUCH different from our machines in the USA.
It is not uncommon for a cycle to be longer than 1 hour, unlike our 20 minute cycles.
Forcing the door open mid-cycle CAN BREAK THE MACHINE, resulting in expensive repairs or replacement.

I have heard complaints from SEVERAL owners about pilgrims breaking the machine.
Even with signs up in English, people ignore them.
WTF!???
One albergue (Santa Celia) closed their kitchen for at least one season because the washer had been forced open and broken twice. Who cares? The pilgrims coming in from Jaca who have no place to cook their food or wash their clothes!

I have just had the experience of a group leader and lodging OWNER asking that the pilgrims do not try to operate their machine. The owner had stayed an extra hour and a half waiting for a rude pilgrim who sat at the bar and drank instead knowing she was waiting to put his wash in.

She finally had to go make dinner for her own family. The group leader was given instructions on how to operate the BRAND NEW MACHINE and asked the pilgrims to please not touch the machine, but ask for help.

THEY AGREED.

The group leader starts the machine, goes to make a sandwich and comes back to find the washer door forced open and people stuffing more clothes in. Luckily he got it to work again.

This is a place where we have developed a very good relationship with the owners. It would be a shame if that were ruined by spoiled, irresponsible tourists.

Rude, demanding, ignorant, and self-absorbed people are on the rise on the Camino, in my opinion.
And I've heard several albergue owners comment that the money just isn't worth putting up with the foolishness.

Ours is a budget trip. I state in the handouts "This is a budget trip, not a five-star vacation." "We are not a company, we are pilgrims helping pilgrims." But I've discovered that many do not bother to read the material I send out. That assumption is based on the constant questions I get about material I covered in the hand outs.

For the amount of time I put in planning, making reservations, and emailing group members, I end up making less than minimum wage. You couldn't stay 5 nights in an American hotel for what people pay for 3 weeks paid lodging with us (and many other groups). And as many nice people as I've had on my trips, it seems there's always one who threatens to ruin it for everyone. I'm just about worn out.

• I have had a woman throw a tantrum and slam her suitcase all over antique furniture because she was tired.
• I've had a woman leave Orisson at 9 am and not get into Roncesvalles until 9:45 pm, never thinking about the rest of the group worrying sick if she'd fallen off a cliff. Everyone else arrived by 2 pm. This went on until I threatened to boot her off the trip and cancel her lodging reservations.
• I've had a man hang his dripping muddy wet raincoat on priceless antiques in a casa rural.
• One guy came in drunk late at night and started a blazing fire in the fireplace, then went to bed leaving it burning. The hostess and her help had to come down and put out the fire, leading to no more firewood being left for pilgrims.
• I watched an American man and his daughter START a fight and punch another pilgrim because the daughter lied about what was happening. If there had not been a mattress on the floor, the 2d man would have been dead, his head hit so hard on the floor.
• I've had a woman who insisted she spoke Spanish be extremely rude to taxi drivers and hotel workers, embarrassing me and making me want to crawl into a hole.
• I've had a woman scream in my face because she was unhappy about taxi service.
• I've had a woman call me in a panic and insist I hurry and get to a village because she couldn't find her lodging. I caught a taxi and found her drinking Sangria in the square with her friends - she stayed there until after 9 pm.
• I've had people insist on carrying 50 pounds too much, buy nick-nacks in nearly every village, increasing their weight, and refuse to pay pack transport, instead asking their fellow pilgrims to carry their excess weight, making other group members very uncomfortable to say no.
• After MANY warnings in the written material I send out, I've had several people get angry because I've told my group leaders NOT to carry their heavy packs up stairs. I can't risk my group leader getting hurt and people just refuse to pack light.
• I've had people complain the rooms were too small, too big, too hot, too cold, blah blah blah. The compared the pilgrim rooms at San Martin Pinario to jail cells. Really???
• I've had people LEAVE their room at SMP to go to a different hotel, and refuse to check out and leave the key for other pilgrims who needed the rooms. In other words, since they had "paid for" the room, even though they weren't using it, they wouldn't give up the key.

Despite all the wonderful experiences I've had on the Camino (and there HAVE been more positive experiences than negative) in past years, I'm feeling "done."

It's hard to smile and stay positive in the face of increasing rudeness and self-centeredness.

Where is the Camino Spirit?
Oh, it's there, but you have to peel back layers to see it much anymore, in my experience.

I do know myself.

I have learned I don't do well with "difficult people" - aka people who are SUPPOSED to be adults but act like spoiled children. They wear me down and I'm just past the age of wanting to deal with their crap.

So I should retire, I'm thinking.

I'll be glad when the Camino is no longer a fad and pilgrims instead of tourists return to walk.
But then, it's said you can never go back..
Shame, that...

Sorry for venting, but I needed to get it out.

I feel like starting a campaign or writing a book about all the BAD THINGS that happen on the Camino just to get the traffic down.

:::crawling into a hole:::
*****
I also need to add that I have met and led WONDERFUL people on the Camino.
Many more of those than the negative type.
Most of the people in my groups have been polite, fun-loving, respectful, spiritual, and kind PILGRIMS who I have thoroughly enjoyed. It just seems there's always that one or two in each group that tries to ruin it.

I'm grateful for the conversation this has opened up.
I will leave the post up.

Today is a better day!
Thanks all.

I hear you on this one. I feel I have to overcompensate sometimes for the entitled "ugly" American image we've earned.( I assume these wee YS citizens breaking machines?)

 

[Anniesantiago]

@Anniesantiago . Although your post was a rant , I had a good giggle as it reminded me just how demanding and ungrateful some people can be towards organizers , hospitaleros and owners.
During my stint at San Anton we had a towering arrogant cyclist arrive at noon and demand we take him in ...Right Now!
Really?. My college told him that priority was given to walking pilgrims but if we still had beds left at 7pm , cyclists were welcome. He stormed off only to return with his blazing face and had a go at my college's nationality even though he could speak 6 different languages. At this point my little 5 foot frame was ready to send a rather larger pilgrim to the promised land prematurely. He stormed off again , this time slamming our glass door so hard that it was a miricle it held without breaking. I can tell you that ever this guy shows his face again and I am the hospitalero ........
I had to get a little rant in myself Annie?

Oh Renshaw, we had several of those show up at San Anton, often quite early in the day. If it were up to me, I wouldn't open the gates until after 2 pm, but it IS a beautiful quiet place to rest and so many pilgrims appreciated the sanctity of the place. I laughed when you told what your colleague said. I can hear him saying it ::chuckle:: and though he and I didn't see eye to eye every time, I loved his frankness. I respond to that positively. No beating around the bush with him!

 

[Seabird]

Oh dear. So sorry. You are a champ (along with so many on this forum) to so many of us. Hang in there.

Perhaps you should put your rant (or a version of it) on your website. Those persons you don't scare away will be your true pilgrims.

 

[Hal]

Where did they begin?
Wish you well, Peter.

Of the outliers, I spoke to people who took 14 and 15 hours from SJPP and 12, 13 and 15 from from Orisson.

They generally told me that in "mildly" hilly areas st home they walked 2km/hr inclusive of water/snack/loo breaks. Given the difference the Pyrenees presents, they arrived basically when they thought they would, tired but happy.

Weeks down the road they had increased their walking pace to 3km/hr, and still tended to walk longer, slower days but remained injury free.

When "walking one's own Camino", I guess a group tour in which everyone else arrives by 2 or 3pm is not appropriate for very slow walkers.

 

[movinmaggie]

Annie I don't think those folks of whom you write about are on this forum. And the more that tour operators and larger travel companies offer the Camino as the new 'hot spot', as has been happening, the number will continue to grow.

 

[fraluchi]

At any rate, thanks to everyone for listening.
Dang, it felt good to get it off my chest.

I am taking a break.

Now those people who want to buy an albergue have some further info after Rebecca's explanations on the subject. "Business as usual" is now a new Camino de Santiago definition of "hospitality industry".

 

[Ton]

I think you probably are right. People who travel in a group have totally different expectations than individual walkers/pilgrims who are or feel more responsible for their journey. People travelling by group who pay for a guide, arrangedwill indeed

Hey Annie, I feel sad for you, reading this post. It sounds as if, as people above have mentioned, that by both mixing business with something you love, and by making the Camino accessible to people who might not otherwise get there, you're encountering more than your fair share of muppets. It's just my speculation, but perhaps this is what happens when people who want an organised group activity instead of choosing to being open to a more unique and individually driven experience end up on the Camino? As people have said elsewhere in the forum, the Camino you get is the one you need, not necessarily the one you want - however, it sounds like what you describe is at least in part driven by people feeling entitled to "get what they paid for", or perhaps feeling entitled to behave however they want to, since they've paid for the privilege? I'm just guessing, based on my own preconceived ideas and experiences of tour groups of various types...

Somebody above suggested a pre-camino questionnaire - great idea! There is probably some kind of brief, freely available and validated psychometric that measures empathy verses antisocial personality traits out there... that might give you at least a clue as to who your potential clients are (or might be) before you agree to take them on? From what you're described above, it sounds like selfishness and a lack of empathy are the main issues you encounter in badly behaved group members? A questionnaire would at least allow you to screen people a little. It wouldn't weed out all the muppets, but it might be a start.

You could also consider getting your clients to read something brief about the "spirit of the Camino" (what ever that is, its probably NOT exemplified by what you describe in your post above), as well as listing the issues you've encountered above and explaining why they don't fit with what you and your business are trying to deliver to clients. That might allow the muppets an opportunity to self-identify, and go elsewhere. Having made that stuff explicit, you might then be able to say that if people demonstrate that they're just not getting it, then you have the right to ask them to leave, at your discretion (and without the right to claim a refund)?

I don't know - all that sounds pretty overbearing, now I read it, and not really in keeping with the idea that I have about what the Camino is.... but I guess my idea of what the Camino is doesn't really include group tours.

Perhaps what you need to to walk a solo Camino again and take some time out from the business, re-evaluate and decide what next?

Hey Annie, I feel sad for you, reading this post. It sounds as if, as people above have mentioned, that by both mixing business with something you love, and by making the Camino accessible to people who might not otherwise get there, you're encountering more than your fair share of muppets. It's just my speculation, but perhaps this is what happens when people who want an organised group activity instead of choosing to being open to a more unique and individually driven experience end up on the Camino? As people have said elsewhere in the forum, the Camino you get is the one you need, not necessarily the one you want - however, it sounds like what you describe is at least in part driven by people feeling entitled to "get what they paid for", or perhaps feeling entitled to behave however they want to, since they've paid for the privilege? I'm just guessing, based on my own preconceived ideas and experiences of tour groups of various types...

Somebody above suggested a pre-camino questionnaire - great idea! There is probably some kind of brief, freely available and validated psychometric that measures empathy verses antisocial personality traits out there... that might give you at least a clue as to who your potential clients are (or might be) before you agree to take them on? From what you're described above, it sounds like selfishness and a lack of empathy are the main issues you encounter in badly behaved group members? A questionnaire would at least allow you to screen people a little. It wouldn't weed out all the muppets, but it might be a start.

You could also consider getting your clients to read something brief about the "spirit of the Camino" (what ever that is, its probably NOT exemplified by what you describe in your post above), as well as listing the issues you've encountered above and explaining why they don't fit with what you and your business are trying to deliver to clients. That might allow the muppets an opportunity to self-identify, and go elsewhere. Having made that stuff explicit, you might then be able to say that if people demonstrate that they're just not getting it, then you have the right to ask them to leave, at your discretion (and without the right to claim a refund)?

I don't know - all that sounds pretty overbearing, now I read it, and not really in keeping with the idea that I have about what the Camino is.... but I guess my idea of what the Camino is doesn't really include group tours.

Perhaps what you need to to walk a solo Camino again and take some time out from the business, re-evaluate and decide what next?

This confirms that it is not wise to walk in guided groups. And certainly not on a Camino, where everyone could easily find her/his own way. People have expectations from a paid guide and a paid trip. Walking on your own makes you feel more responsible for yourself and your Camino. As individual walker, it's not always a pleasure to encounter groups who can have a big influence on the atmosphere. I know from experience from both sides, I was a few times part of a group (not on the Camino)and as such sometimes, without realizing it, a source of irritation for others.

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

I don't think walking slowly was the issue, it was not checking in when they knew they would be late. Tour leaders have some responsibility making sure everyone arrives safe and sound, and group members worry about that nice lady they met the night before...

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

I think some might be missing the point...it is not that groups are bad, it is about bad behavior. Frankly, I saw more bad behavior displayed by solo walkers, or walkers who had formed their own groups...not by organized tour members. Clearly, bad solo walkers exist as others above have posted about intervening with them. It is natural for us to put blame onto a group that does not include us, leaving us blameless. When we do this, nothing changes. Step one: examine your own behavior carefully, adjust as necessary. Step two: see how you can help others with their behaviors (as in translating example above, helping/thanking the hospitaleros, encouraging respect for the host nation, model good behavior) step three: repeat. I hope no one considering a tour (for whatever reason, we don't get to decide for them) gives up on a pilgrimage because some walkers don't want to share the road.