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I started in SJPP. If I ever get back to Spain for another camino...and I do the CF, I'm starting in Roncesvalles. That's where it really began for me. I was excited to cross the Pyrenees, but I hiked it during an overcast and rainy day. Loved the ginormous Albergue de peregrinos de Roncesvalles, and the next day's walk to Zubiri was spectacular!! I've spent quite some time reviewing my pics and videos of my trip during these crazy times. Buen camino to all!Members will be aware that I am neither a contrarian nor a provocateur but that I do like, now and again, to ask questions a little beyond which is the best bar to discuss the best sleeping bag in.
So, as I viewed a thread started by a new member who is flying into Madrid and probably training it to Pamplona asking how to get from there to a small provincial French town in the western foothills of the Pyrenees, I wondered, again, why do people think that the Camino starts in St Jean pied de Porte?
Our new member could start walking to the shrine of Santiago from Pamplona, as many do. They could, if they were determined to travel away from Santiago before walking to Santiago, have made their way to historic Roncesvalles. They could, if they wanted to, head for Somport or Irun or even Barcelona but everyone wants to get to StJpdP and then leave it the following morning via a potentially crippling walk up and over a thumping great hill for no other reason that I can discern than "that its there" (Mallory, I forgive you) or because that is where their guide book starts.
With all due respects to @Monasp and the good folk of the Bureau des pèlerins de Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port. Why?
The documents you posted made fascinating reading. The second one even somewhat disquieting. thanks for enlightening me.Fr Elias made an enormous contribution to the Camino de Santiago especially the idea of walking it, but many others had a hand in its 20th century revival. I've attached a couple of pdf's which illustrate that the camino has a much more textured, you might say chequered, history than I had ever realised before we all went into lockdown and I had little else to do than research the history of the camino. Believe me, they make interesting reading, and there's plenty more they came from..
Your comment made me curious.The documents you posted made fascinating reading. The second one even somewhat disquieting. thanks for enlightening me.
I really don't think that the perception it begins in SJPdP is because UNESCO gave it World Heritage listing, as neither the original nor the revised listing indicated a start in SJPdP. The UNESCO listing likely drew more attention to the route, and to other written materials around the route which indicated SJPdP as a start. But it, in itself, didn't indicate SJPdP as a start at all.Sure. But I was trying to answer the original question, something on the lines of 'why do so many people think the camino starts at SJPdP?', and the answer is - partly because UNESCO gave it World Heritage listing thus reinforcing the idea, or misconception, that this was the 'real' camino. As you point out, everyone's camino (or maybe pilgrimage would be less ambiguous) starts where they do.
Incidentally, formal recognition of a camino is crucial to a camino's survival. Being a Bien de Interés Cultural means that in Spain the officially recognised caminos are protected and maintained at significant government expense.
This is prolly the best answer I've read so far...My view below comes with a caveat, it is my view/opinion and in no way detracts from anyone else’s truth/opinion as they hold it so don’t be offended
When I first started planning I was sure of three “facts” the Camino starts in SJPdP, the Frances IS the real Camino and you haven’t completed it without a compostela…I don’t know if it’s age or whatever but now I know for me it starts where I want, I can walk where I want and from my religious perspective my journey finishes at the cathedral and not the office because my pilgrimage is between me and my God (I walk for religious reasons) not unesco or HollywoodSo enjoy your Camino and accept it’s for you not anyone else to dictate where you start or how to walk it…buen camino mi amigos
Oh yes, if you can, do add Muxía! You won’t be disappointed (I hope!)In 2001, I started in Roncesvalles ended Santiago.
In 2002, began in SJPP took Napoleon route. Loved it. Loved the trees seeking sun. The feeling of accomplishment was heart swelling. I walked over the Pyrenees. I completed this pilgrimage in Fisterra. Winter 2014, I took Valcarlos path. I enjoy both routes to Roncesvalles. Prefer Napoleon. Its walking in the footsteps of history.
Camino Frances SJPP to Fisterra feels like the complete package.
Next time out on any route will add Dumbria and Muxia on way to Fisterra.
I completely agree. There is so much fascinating detail.Your comment made me curious.
Instead of just opening the two documents and having a quick look at the name of the authors, the titles and the first few lines, as I had initially done, I proceeded to actually read the 34 pages of Revival of the Pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela: The Politics of Religious, National, and a European Patrimony, 1879–1988 by Sasha D. Pack who, as I now know, is a professor at the University of Buffalo and a historian of Modern Europe, specializing in Spain and the Mediterranean world in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries.
And I am glad that I did! It’s an excellent essay, and it provided a few new insights that I hadn’t seen before. I had already read a ton of papers - ok, maybe only a few dozens - about the contemporary revival/reinvention of the pilgrimage to Santiago and had not expected to read anything new.
Thank you to @dick bird for posting it.
PS: Roncesvalles gets a mention in passing but not a word about SJPP.
You might find this article on Gronze interesting.On the topic of SJPP, as a Spaniard, I always heard/read that the Camino Francés started in Roncesvalles. I had never heard of SJPP before until I started talking about the Camino with non-Spaniards.
When I walked through in 1994, the one special thing about the place (well, setting aside the inimitable Mme Debril) was that it was the first place where you could meet pilgrims having come via different routes than yourself (which for me, coming from the lonely Paris Way, meant meeting other pilgrims for the first time that Camino).PS: Roncesvalles gets a mention in passing but not a word about SJPP.
I think there are several overlapping reasons, including the increasing tendency to cut the Camino up into portions and give them specific names (so "Francès" = SJPP > Santiago), and a post-90s tendency to treat the Camino like a hiking trail, and so with a beginning, middle, and end.I suspect the reason that many other guides and resources start and have started in SJPdP probably has a lot to do with the fact that SJPdP is the closest transportation hub to where three of the four French routes join up in Ostabat.
Sure, but there's an ontological element here, which goes beyond the opinions of particular individuals on where they think it "starts".So, my reply to the statement posed by @Tincatinker - for some people the Camino (Frances) does not start in SJPP, for some other people it does.
Yikes I don’t know what that ‘ontological’ means, but I’m sure I could look it up. And no doubt you know more about this start, finish concept than I do.Sure, but there's an ontological element here, which goes beyond the opinions of particular individuals on where they think it "starts".
You're welcome. I've spent the last few months trying to find out as much as I can about the camino and its history. It is far more complex than I could ever have imagined. Learning about it is almost as gripping as doing it. Almost.Your comment made me curious.
Instead of just opening the two documents and having a quick look at the name of the authors, the titles and the first few lines, as I had initially done, I proceeded to actually read the 34 pages of Revival of the Pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela: The Politics of Religious, National, and a European Patrimony, 1879–1988 by Sasha D. Pack who, as I now know, is a professor at the University of Buffalo and a historian of Modern Europe, specializing in Spain and the Mediterranean world in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries.
And I am glad that I did! It’s an excellent essay, and it provided a few new insights that I hadn’t seen before. I had already read a ton of papers - ok, maybe only a few dozens - about the contemporary revival/reinvention of the pilgrimage to Santiago and had not expected to read anything new.
Thank you to @dick bird for posting it.
PS: Roncesvalles gets a mention in passing but not a word about SJPP.
The author is Anton Pombo, a Spanish journalist, guidebook author, Camino historian and Camino ‘personality’. He tends to be a bit polemic in these Gronze articles. One quote: When they started to paint yellow arrows from Roncesvalles to Santiago, the purists reiterated the well-known phrase that "the Camino begins at the door of your house". El Camino comienza en la puerta de tu casa. IOW, neither in Roncesvalles nor in SJJP unless you happen to live there.You might find this article on Gronze interesting.
https://www.gronze.com/articulos/in...ances-saint-jean-pied-port-roncesvalles-16327
Hi. Now I'm really going to mess with your head. Ontology is essentially about things which may or may not exist and how they may or may not relate to each other, assuming they do, actually exist. This is as opposed to epistemology which is about how we know, or think we know about things which we think are real.Yikes I don’t know what that ‘ontological’ means, but I’m sure I could look it up. And no doubt you know more about this start, finish concept than I do.
Anyway, I’ve thought better of posting something on this already much commented on topic - so I’m going to delete my musings. I’m off to the dictionary
Thanks @dick bird That’s got a touch of the ‘unknown knowns’ and ‘known unknowns’ about it.Hi. Now I'm really going to mess with your head. Ontology is essentially about things which may or may not exist and how they may or may not relate to each other, assuming they do, actually exist. This is as opposed to epistemology which is about how we know, or think we know about things which we think are real.
Nah, I'm just making it up.
This is a bit like the atheist's prayer in the old joke:Hi. Now I'm really going to mess with your head. Ontology is essentially about things which may or may not exist and how they may or may not relate to each other, assuming they do, actually exist. This is as opposed to epistemology which is about how we know, or think we know about things which we think are real.
Nah, I'm just making it up.
Unless you are a biologist: in that realm ontology is the developmental history of an organism.Ontology is essentially about things which may or may not exist and how they may or may not relate to each other, assuming they do, actually exist.
It’s an excellent essay,
Oh no !! They were very interesting !!- so I’m going to delete my recent musings
Maybe, but I'm on my third start from home to Santiago, plus my 2000 Home to Rome.No earth-shattering epiphany of course, just a realisation how one gets drawn into a narrative or idea and starts to accept it as a kind of universal truth when one hears or reads it often enough.
Love ya work @VNwalkingWhat's with all the fancy words, anyway?
Practically, the Camino starts in all sorts of places and follows an infinite number of routes.
And I certainly met French walkers who finish their trekking in Roncevaux, perhaps to return and continue, perhaps not.It just occurred to me that in the French movie Saint-Jacques… La Mecque of 2005 where the protagonists start in Le Puy, Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port is a turning point of the narrative: that's where their forced group walk ends and where they would be free to return home but where they decide to continue together to Santiago. Both an end and a start.
For me personally, the Pyrenees were also a kind of incision: for a long time I knew that I had to get to the foot of the Pyrenees and then we will see ...
OMG, you SJPP people, you all start in the middle ....
And?Maybe, but I'm on my third start from home to Santiago, plus my 2000 Home to Rome
Fortunately not everyone here is a philosopher. So we have to look up words like that. The definition Dick quoted is what you can find with a quick Google search, so if you don't like it perhaps you should edit Wikipedia.Crikey !!
Ontology concerns itself with what exists. Epistemology with Truth, truth, "truth", and "truths".
It’s generally easier to wait for @Kathar1na to provide the synopsis.I have not read much in the scholarly literature about the revival of the camino. But when @Kathar1na offers this opinion, I decided it was time to take a look! It is fascinating. For those who complain about the Camino’s blending of the national political interest with the religious interest with the financial interests of both the government and the church, this is a great, succinct historical explanation. Though I agree with @Peregrinopaul, somewhat disquieting. I can’t help but wonder how much cynicism played a part in the revival.
And for some historical insight on the neverending debate about tourist or pilgrim, this is a good place to start. If the church doesn’t care about the difference, why should we?!
And that made me giggle, too ...It’s generally easier to wait for @Kathar1na to provide the synopsis.
No. Same here.is it just me who is embarrassed at the command of the English language that some non-native speakers have? If only my Spanish could ever achieve that standard
Wikipedia is useless as a resource for that sort of thing.The definition Dick quoted is what you can find with a quick Google search, so if you don't like it perhaps you should edit Wikipedia.
My first Camino, my wife and I started from Le Puy. We were 65 years then, daily walkers but not big hikers. By the time we reached Saint Jean, we were in great shape. We were not afraid of the long climb and long descent on the way to Roncesvalles. We enjoyed it. Whenever we hear of someone arriving in Saint Jean, intending to spend the very first day of the very first Camino going to Roncesvalles, we think, who gave these newbies such impractical advice? Starting either several days before Saint Jean (Orthez perhaps) or starting in Roncesvalles would avoid many physical injuries, which I believe are common.Very many thanks for this. I do not understand the compulsion to start at SJPdP. It is not one of the great medieval assembly points for pilgrimage. Do we blame Brierley? Why not start from Vézelay, le Puy, Paris - or anywhere? Your own front door, if you live in Europe? Why not choose a less populous route?
Thank you - a treasure trove! I spent some time last week re-reading and transcribing my Camino diary from 1990 so many of those refugios are still fresh in my mind. I just had a look at issue number 13 of Peregrino which came out just before my walk. So many familiar places listed in the Guia de refugios. Times have changed and the refugios certainly have. I had completely forgotten sleeping on straw in the palloza refugio in O Cebreiro. And my memory had mercifully erased the Samos refugio from my mind too - no water (tap at the petrol pump outside) and no toilet (instructions from the monk in charge of pilgrims to go into the small clump of trees across the road and crap there - I assume the brothers had more private arrangements).Some of the early Peregrino editions have a list of the refugios (predecessors of the Camino albergues) along the Camino Francés. Times have changed indeed.
Members will be aware that I am neither a contrarian nor a provocateur but that I do like, now and again, to ask questions a little beyond which is the best bar to discuss the best sleeping bag in.
So, as I viewed a thread started by a new member who is flying into Madrid and probably training it to Pamplona asking how to get from there to a small provincial French town in the western foothills of the Pyrenees, I wondered, again, why do people think that the Camino starts in St Jean pied de Porte?
Our new member could start walking to the shrine of Santiago from Pamplona, as many do. They could, if they were determined to travel away from Santiago before walking to Santiago, have made their way to historic Roncesvalles. They could, if they wanted to, head for Somport or Irun or even Barcelona but everyone wants to get to StJpdP and then leave it the following morning via a potentially crippling walk up and over a thumping great hill for no other reason that I can discern than "that its there" (Mallory, I forgive you) or because that is where their guide book starts.
With all due respects to @Monasp and the good folk of the Bureau des pèlerins de Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port. Why?
Mom: "If everyone jumped off the Empire State building, would you do it, too?"
Son: "Well, it wouldn't really hurt to land on that pile of bodies."
And not just SJPP - on my last trip through Rabanal I couldn't believe how much it had changed from the sleepy village of 2001.I read a few minutes ago that "Pierre", the owner of the pilgrim shop in SJPP (Boutique du Pelèrin) has retired and sold his shop to a new owner. I wanted to google it a bit and found an article with different content but interesting (to me) nevertheless.
It is in French, published in 2019, and it is about the Impact of the Pilgrimage to Santiago on Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port. It is a short history, spanning a mere 25 years. It does not answer the question of why SJPP has become a de facto starting point but when: at the beginning of this century, around the year 2000. Today seems a far cry from the time when the lonely pilgrims who crossed the streets of Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port on their way to Santiago de Compostela aroused mistrust, to the point that some inhabitants called the police, thinking that these strange backpackers were marauders with unlaudable intentions.
Everything changed in the early 2000s, when this small town became the world rallying point for those who want to start an increasingly fashionable journey.
These pilgrims, who arrive by the hundreds every day (up to 500 pilgrims daily in May and September), spend, sleep one night and, in the early morning, take the road to Roncesvalles.Numerous inhabitants have renovated and transformed all or part of their house into a gîte d'étape, albergue or dormitory. Within a decade, about twenty places of this type had opened. Not to mention the dozens of guest rooms that have been created. SJPP has now at least 470 beds for pilgrims passing through.The number of businesses is a reflection of this abundant activity. SJPP, whose population does not exceed 1,800 inhabitants, has 140 shops, 25 restaurants (including one Michelin-starred) and bars, spread over the three main streets. The rise of pilgrimage has even inspired former Camino walkers. Thus, ten years ago, Pierre created the Boutique du pèlerin, the first store entirely dedicated to those who walk the Caminos. The company Express Bourricot was born at the same time. [...] many others also live from the pilgrimage. The activity is such that some seasonal workers no longer even need to go elsewhere in winter to earn a living.
There is also a remark about les voyageurs haut de gamme. Elsewhere, for example in Barcelona and Santiago, they are called higher quality travellers. No matter how this is defined: From my own limited personal experience and people I know personally, the demographic has certainly shifted during these recent decades. Those who walked or rode on horseback to Santiago in the 1990s and 1980s or earlier were young - between 20 and 30 - or middle aged with an interest in medieval history and medieval art. Before the 1990s they (those that I know of) started from somewhere in France or even the Benelux countries. Nowadays those that I know personally and who walked in more recent years were all in the 40 to 60+ age range when they embarked for the first time on the way to Santiago. And they often did start in SJPP and they were certainly not students with limited financial means.
L'impact du pèlerinage de Compostelle sur Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port
Les 70 000 pèlerins annuels des chemins de Saint-Jacques rapportent 3 millions d'euros de retombées directes et indirectes à l'économie de cette ville-étape.www.lepoint.fr
"The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there";"don't ever go back, it's never the way you remember it."
As far as we Brits were concerned SJPDP was already the default starting point for the Camino by 1990. The CSJ guide followed Valiña's lead and started there."Everything changed in the early 2000s, when this small town became the world rallying point for those who want to start an increasingly fashionable journey."
Technically, I am a Brit.As far as we Brits were concerned SJPDP was already the default starting point for the Camino by 1990. The CSJ guide followed Valiña's lead and started there.
The CSJ guide I used on my first Camino was really just a supplement to Valiña's guidebook and had very little route description. Mostly just saying where refugios and hotels were. I hate trying to follow detailed written or verbal instructions. If the official route isn't blindingly obvious I'm more likely to pick one that looks likely and then pick up the official trail further on if necessary. Apart from big towns and cities I've mostly found the Camino routes to be pretty well signposted and KSO-type instructions are redundant.KSO drove me mad. Then I learned some more.
Keep straight on
KSO . . . when you hit the coast . . . STOP!Technically, I am a Brit.
Practically, ....
I started in the traditional starting place for people who identify as from Spain. My walking companion was in charge...
We used the CSJ guide. Ultra light. No waste of paper or use of photos.
KSO drove me mad. Then I learned some more.
Keep straight on
I know the song well from my childhood. Bizarre that the video pictures a cyclist....Let'see how long my meandering survives in this thread. I did try, weakly, to find a suitable thread to post this in...
A forum friend is off this morning on a trek - not a camino! - for the day.
It reminded me of a song my class had to sing in a whole town performance to celebrate the 750th anniversary of the founding charter of our town. My forum name is an abbreviation of the name of my town. (I just did a duckduckgo check and it immmediately found the name of my town)
I was 5 years of age. The mystery! The dark space behind the stage! God help all the adults who had to shepherd hundreds of pupils, five schools, all classes from five to 17 or 18 years old!
And the song? There are various renditions, but let this one spur you on to think: was there a hidden spark in your infancy for your future peregrinations?
Edit: today is a bank holiday where I live. That is my excuse.
Of course, German origins. I learned recently to avoid another word that to me is innocent, but has to do with origins...I know the song well from my childhood. Bizarre that the video pictures a cyclist....
Apparently adapted/translated from an old German song.
Thank goodness that not everybody that learnt the song has been 'sparked' into walking the Camino!
Thank goodness not everybody walking the camino is sparked into singing that songThank goodness that not everybody that learnt the song has been 'sparked' into walking the Camino!
OMG you brought back vivid memories of my childhood singing this song in a children’s school choir.Let'see how long my meandering survives in this thread. I did try, weakly, to find a suitable thread to post this in...
A forum friend is off this morning on a trek - not a camino! - for the day.
It reminded me of a song my class had to sing in a whole town performance to celebrate the 750th anniversary of the founding charter of our town. My forum name is an abbreviation of the name of my town. (I just did a duckduckgo check and it immmediately found the name of my town)
I was 5 years of age. The mystery! The dark space behind the stage! God help all the adults who had to shepherd hundreds of pupils, five schools, all classes from five to 17 or 18 years old!
And the song? There are various renditions, but let this one spur you on to think: was there a hidden spark in your infancy for your future peregrinations?
Edit: today is a bank holiday where I live. That is my excuse.
And the song? There are various renditions, but let this one spur you on to think: was there a hidden spark in your infancy for your future peregrinations?
OMG you brought back vivid memories of my childhood singing this song in a children’s school choir.
They will now. Incoming EarwormThank goodness not everybody walking the camino is sparked into singing that song
Why does this make me sad?I read a few minutes ago that "Pierre", the owner of the pilgrim shop in SJPP (Boutique du Pelèrin) has retired and sold his shop to a new owner. I wanted to google it a bit and found an article with different content but interesting (to me) nevertheless.
It is in French, published in 2019, and it is about the Impact of the Pilgrimage to Santiago on Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port. It is a short history, spanning a mere 25 years. It does not answer the question of why SJPP has become a de facto starting point but when: at the beginning of this century, around the year 2000. Today seems a far cry from the time when the lonely pilgrims who crossed the streets of Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port on their way to Santiago de Compostela aroused mistrust, to the point that some inhabitants called the police, thinking that these strange backpackers were marauders with unlaudable intentions.
Everything changed in the early 2000s, when this small town became the world rallying point for those who want to start an increasingly fashionable journey.
These pilgrims, who arrive by the hundreds every day (up to 500 pilgrims daily in May and September), spend, sleep one night and, in the early morning, take the road to Roncesvalles.Numerous inhabitants have renovated and transformed all or part of their house into a gîte d'étape, albergue or dormitory. Within a decade, about twenty places of this type had opened. Not to mention the dozens of guest rooms that have been created. SJPP has now at least 470 beds for pilgrims passing through.The number of businesses is a reflection of this abundant activity. SJPP, whose population does not exceed 1,800 inhabitants, has 140 shops, 25 restaurants (including one Michelin-starred) and bars, spread over the three main streets. The rise of pilgrimage has even inspired former Camino walkers. Thus, ten years ago, Pierre created the Boutique du pèlerin, the first store entirely dedicated to those who walk the Caminos. The company Express Bourricot was born at the same time. [...] many others also live from the pilgrimage. The activity is such that some seasonal workers no longer even need to go elsewhere in winter to earn a living.
There is also a remark about les voyageurs haut de gamme. Elsewhere, for example in Barcelona and Santiago, they are called higher quality travellers. No matter how this is defined: From my own limited personal experience and people I know personally, the demographic has certainly shifted during these recent decades. Those who walked or rode on horseback to Santiago in the 1990s and 1980s or earlier were young - between 20 and 30 - or middle aged with an interest in medieval history and medieval art. Before the 1990s they (those that I know of) started from somewhere in France or even the Benelux countries. Nowadays those that I know personally and who walked in more recent years were all in the 40 to 60+ age range when they embarked for the first time on the way to Santiago. And they often did start in SJPP and they were certainly not students with limited financial means.
L'impact du pèlerinage de Compostelle sur Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port
Les 70 000 pèlerins annuels des chemins de Saint-Jacques rapportent 3 millions d'euros de retombées directes et indirectes à l'économie de cette ville-étape.www.lepoint.fr
I don’t know …Why does this make me sad?
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