Thankyou and goodbye

[TerryB]

Sadly after more than 5 years as a Forum member I feel it time to say "goodbye". The comments on some threads are becoming more and more bitter and divisive and are not, I feel, in line with the original ethos of the forum - "Where past pilgrims share, and future pilgrims learn". Most of my thoughts and observations are already around somewhere on the threads and as a favour to my equanimity (and bloodpressure!) I feel it time to withdraw, although I may 'log in' again at some point in the future.

With my Blessing on all pilgrims past and present
TerryB
aka Tio Tel

 

[Al the optimist]

Oh no! Please don't let them get to you! As a long time and valued member we would miss you and your spirit. Perhaps you would reconsider? Maybe try to avoid those acrimonious threads (I try to). It is an unfortunate fact of life that the bigger a group gets the more chance that there will be conflicts of opinion. I agree with you that some seem to find indulging in some kind of verbal ping-pong as rewarding, with often testosterone fuelled obsession with having the last word. But you can soon see the thread developing into this and then can just avoid it? Once again I implore you to reconsider. If you don't may I wish you all the best for the future and bless you for your inputs.

 

[naplesdon]

Bless you Tio Tel. Being one of those who throws a zingers once and a while when I see some obvious contentious question. I would like to quit the forum too, but the insanity of it all makes my day.

 

[JohnnieWalker]

We should all learn the lesson from this - and hope that Terry comes back again

 

[anniethenurse]

Hopefully Terry will come back one day. I will miss his comments on the Forum.

 

[stevenjarvis]

Sadly after more than 5 years as a Forum member I feel it time to say "goodbye". The comments on some threads are becoming more and more bitter and divisive and are not, I feel, in line with the original ethos of the forum - "Where past pilgrims share, and future pilgrims learn". Most of my thoughts and observations are already around somewhere on the threads and as a favour to my equanimity (and bloodpressure!) I feel it time to withdraw, although I may 'log in' again at some point in the future.

With my Blessing on all pilgrims past and present
TerryB
aka Tio Tel

I am sorry you feel that way, and hope you will return, soon.

 

[Tincatinker]

Terry, I will miss your gentle voice on this forum. There have been some crabby moments in what may have been a crabby year and i do hope that forum members old and new reflect a little more in future before pressing that "post" button.

 

[Tia Valeria]

As many of you realise I am TerryB's 'other half' and we are (as ever) together in our feelings. Thank you so much for the kind comments. At present for the good of our peace of mind, and our thoughts re a final Camino next year, we are as Terry said taking a break. If we have something to post at a later date on the Camino del Mar-Camino Inglés route then we will contribute - for the good of future pilgims. Meanwhile God bless you all and
'Hasta luego' perhaps rather than 'good-bye'

 

[Anniesantiago]

{{{{{hugs}}}} Tia and Terry.
We will miss you.
Come home soon.
Annie

 

[Rebekah Scott]

Bummer. The gentle, good, and wise are so often shouted down and drowned-out.
(mea culpa.)

 

[wawpdx]

I will miss both of you.
Nancy

 

[peregrino_tom]

Terry and Tia
I admit to feeling the same thing but not quite as strongly you. The forum seems a lot more frenetic now and after checking some posts I quite often feel more exasperated rather than that I've learned anything wise or life-affirming , which often used to be the case. I've started hanging out a bit more at the other forum which is very quiet, but also gentler... I hope to hear from you, back sometime after a breather, or even better meet you on the path.
best wishes to both of you, tom

 

[JohnMcM]

Terry and Tia,
Whilst this makes me sad for I have learned from you both, I shall accept and respect your decision however much I wish it weren't so.

Hope to hear from you later.

Buen Camino and may you forever have happy memories of the Caminos.

 

[MendiWalker]

Sorry to see both of you go.

The forum will lose two posters with lots of very useful info to us all.

I do hope you both change your mind and return soon.

Buen Camino!

 

[Wanderer64]

Terry,

Thanks for the sobering reminder of this wonderful forum's mandate: to share and learn. Your comments have made me reflect on my own participation, which has been relatively brief, about a month.

I read the forum off and on for about 6 months prior to starting my Camino and thinking back, it was all the great, useful information from people like you, not the combative opining, that helped me prepare and learn. I have caught myself doing more of the later recently in my posts. My goal coming into the forum last month was to impart my Camino learnings and experiences and then fade off into a new phase of my life. I'm one of those guys who finds it a bit too easy to get swept up in the more frenetic forum activity. Well, time for this pilgrim to fade off...

The Internet medium can bring out the very best in people, but also the very worst and all shades between. I hope this unique forum continues to serve as a model for how to bring out the best in participants.

Best,
Wanderer64

 

[vicrev]

I think when two well respected Forum members decide to call it quits( for want of a better term) & the reasons that they state,it's about time everybody took notice,it's a big wake up call!!!!......... sometimes the posts can be very close to the bone & I often wonder why Rule 3 isn't enforced by the Moderators.........some can be offensive & personal!!.........It is a great Forum,but please remember , once you press that send button it is in that ''cloud'' forever........... Respect & Tolerance is the number one rule as far as I am concerned..........Tia Valeria & TerryB, the best to you both........keep smiling......................Vicrev

 

[julie]

We will miss you both but also understand how you feel.

Your comments reminded me of the discussion about whether the Camino had changed. Well, yes and no - to changes on the Camino and on the Forum. Adding more people to any activity is going to spread different personalities along the continuum. Unfortunately, however, negativity weighs heavier than positivity and it can be terribly draining.

You have contributed much to the Forum and your leaving will be a loss. That's not to say that you will no longer be contributing to the understanding of the Camino. That will continue in other domains. I wish you well.

 

[Lise T]

Tia and Terry...

I get what you are saying. I have had a break before as some comments made really hurt me.

I was also planning on leaving after my recent Camino as I have felt that many of the comments, debates, digs and judgements were taking away my smile after what I had achieved.

I know life isnt all roses....but my Camino was. I want to hold onto that for as long as I can.

What changed for me was meeting Ivar face to face last month. What a beautiful and humble man he is. I was also able to give him my donation to the forum in person and give him a hug. I am so grateful for this "room" he has created.

So I try really hard to ignore those posts that make me sad and sometimes angry, because i believe in the intent I know in which Ivar set up this forum.

Tia and Terry...as said above I fully understand your position...and I think you have both expressed your reasons very well.

Tia.....thank you for helping me offline with my shoes.

Kia Kaha ( stay strong)

 

[gittiharre]

Hi Terry, so sorry you are saying goodbye, would love to see you come back, may be we should have a special corner for us oldies, Gitti

 

[tyrrek]

Sorry to see you both take a break from the forum. Your contributions have been enjoyed and appreciated. I look forward to hearing from you again at some stage in the future. All best wishes.

 

[susanawee]

We should all learn the lesson from this - and hope that Terry comes back again

I heartily agree with this Johnnie Walker.....well said.

 

[FatmaG]

Thank you for all your contributions - i remember as well your lovely Easter greetings at the "camino albergue" time.....

Come back soon, and all the best till then!

As to the forum, it seems to me still the board with the "nicest" exchange, without harsh words, criticism, prejudice - or at least read only from time to time. But it might be because of my unperfect knowlegde of the language, my strolling around less frequented sub-boards (due to my strolling around less frequented caminos).
It is a very good and important thing to warn us all of any "abuse" - to stay really open and alert for the needs of our pilgrim companions. Thank you for speaking out loud.

 

[LTfit]

May we all learn something from their departure.
I too will miss your thoughtful contributions.
Buen Camino Tia and Terry.

 

[pnwPilgrim]

Even as a newbie I have already enjoyed Tia's posts and wisdom. I am sad that she and Terry feel the need to leave for the reasons they stated. I take it as an excellent reminder to me to be gentle to all the wonderful souls who contribute to this space. In case I forget to say it again for too long, a warm thank you to you all. Buen Camino a todos.

 

[ivar]

I am sorry to hear this. Thank you for all your contributions, and I hope to see you both back some time soon.

What can we do to make this forum place a better place? Ideas and suggestions are welcomed.

I have always thought the best thing is not have as little moderation as possible since "we are all grown ups", right? We could get stricter and ban users/delete posts more actively...

I have on my to-do list writing new forum rules, and I would also like to ask for volunteers to be moderators. Please get in touch by "Private Conversation" if you would like to be a moderator.

Greetings from a rainy day in Santiago,
Ivar

 

[MichaelB10398]

Alas, I can understand your desire to take a break. You are the best judge to determine when to leave and when to return. It is funny how this Forum reflects so much of life. It would be wonderful if we could select only to be around the very best of humanity, but that Nirvana does not exist on this earth. We are left to be like the farmers of old where we must thrash through those with whom we meet to seek for the worthwhile seeds and let the chaff blow away in the wind.

In a real sense you have gained all the knowledge you need for your own Caminos and there is so much knowledge here on the site that any new pilgrim can learn all they need if they spend a little time searching for answers to their questions.

As for me, I return for the moments of respite from my daily life; it is the gems found in the reflections of others and in the small way that I may help others that keeps me coming back.

May our paths cross soon; you are valued and respected.

 

[Al the optimist]

Sorry Tia to see you as well as Terry go, though I kind of expected it. Like I said to him, I am sorry to see you go. You have both been gentle, informative and very helpful. It has been a real pleasure to meet you through this forum and I wish you both Buen Camino. (But like others, I hope yiou return refreshed one day). God Bless

 

[Al the optimist]

I have started a new thread called "Forum Rules" in Miscellaneous Topics. Thanks Vicrev for telling there about you responding above. I know you wondered if the moderator could move your comment there but (justa suggestion) why not post your thought there yourself and save them any effort?

[Ivar added link: http://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/forum-rules.20883/ ]

 

[David]

Nooo please don't go, either of you ..... members such as you are the leaven in the dough. You are GOOD people.
I sometimes think the same, especially when a member uses a post of mine to attack me .. down-heartening at times - of course - but this forum is also a virtual Camino, in a way ... good times and bad times ... please don't go.

p.s. if you stop going on Camino as well can I have your Tilley hat?

 

[Aldy]

Sorry to see you both leave, but I respect your decision. Thank you for all your posts and guidance - you have influenced and inspired us more than you likely know.

 

[m00nman]

As only an occasional visitor to the forum I don't know exactly what has gone on here but I imagine like with most things in life individuals have not been using the forum in the way you feel it was intended.
Unfortunately as others have pointed out this is life and no amount of policing the forum will truly counter that!
My opinion - it is the most valuable tool out there for preparing for your camino and enjoying the advice and support of others...of people like you two without there would not be such a wonderful place to escape life away from all things 'Camino'.
Don't allow them to push you away. Too many people like you have done far too much work to put the forum where it is today.
Keep your heads up and keep writing. Those that truly value what you have to say will always come back for more. Those that don't - won't...but that's their loss!

 

[t2andreo]

But, but...I just got here! And already the room is clearing? Typical for me... "Hey, a funny (not) thing happened to me on the way to the forum..." oops, wrong venue.

But in a more serious vein, I definitely like, concur, and endorse the suggestion made by Ivar earlier on in this dialog that you turn your wisdom and experience to moderation, to the benefit of all members of this important forum. I respectfully disagree with his "hands off" policy regarding moderation. I think a zero tolerance policy towards attack postings should be a new rule. I would replace the post with a standard "slug" that explained that a moderator has removed the posting because it contained either a personal attack, over-the-top-criticism, or other inappropriate content. I would add a big happy face, a multi-language blessing, and a "Have a Nice Day!" (okay, so it is an American thing to wish everyone to just have a nice day)

In our contemporary society where nearly anything goes anytime and anywhere, and "adulthood" is now thought to occur in one's late 20s...jeesh...I submit that a responsible adult must necessarily step in to referee or moderate. Clearly, Ivar can not do it all. But I will note in passing that negativity and attack posting degrade the overall forum. The Forum is Ivar's "Brand" if you will. He should move decisively to protect it. Once you lose your core "customers" you are in decline, as the marketing experts would point out. Please say it ain't so?

My preference for the forum would be to see a "non attack" policy. Each thread or topic area (several threads) would have a moderator assigned. That moderator could delete ANY posting that seriously or uncharitably attacks another post. Personally, I have ZERO tolerance for impolite or immature conduct or statements.

I accept that language differences might make misinterpretation possible from time to time.However, English has become the second lingua franca of the Camino. That is not meant to be an imperious comment, just a statement of fact. So, misinterpretation should not be a frequent issue.

So, I would ask TerryB and Tia Valeria to PLEASE reconsider, especially if Ivar gives them the keys to the proverbial kingdom. We would all benefit from their imposition of civility, maturity and experience. I know I would.

Pretty please? With sugar on top?

 

[William Marques]

......... sometimes the posts can be very close to the bone & I often wonder why Rule 3 isn't enforced by the Moderators.........some can be offensive & personal!!...............Vicrev

Certainly I and I believe the other moderators take offensive and personal comments very seriously, obvious ones are easy but some decisions are not so clear and we have been castigated for censoring discussion.

We are all people with jobs and families of our own and help Ivar when we can so we do not see all the posts and pressing the report button highlights posts we should look at.

As Ivar has said this is a forum for pilgrims who are usually well mannered and helpful but sometimes things get out of hand and it is a shame when this happens and more moderators would help to keep an eye on things more of the time.

 

[Sheffield James]

I love this forum and the good people who share wisdom, humour, practical advice and positive regard help make it the next best thing to being on the actual SdC camino for me. Terry and Tia, I don't know you personally, and yet I've enjoyed your many postings and will be sad to see you go...albeit, hopefully, for a short period.

 

[indyrem]

Sadly after more than 5 years as a Forum member I feel it time to say "goodbye". The comments on some threads are becoming more and more bitter and divisive and are not, I feel, in line with the original ethos of the forum - "Where past pilgrims share, and future pilgrims learn". Most of my thoughts and observations are already around somewhere on the threads and as a favour to my equanimity (and bloodpressure!) I feel it time to withdraw, although I may 'log in' again at some point in the future.

With my Blessing on all pilgrims past and present
TerryB
aka Tio Tel

Oh please, not you and Tia Valeria!! I will miss reading your sane comments as opposed to some of the insane and sometimes thoughtless posts we see in the Forum. I know that sometimes some pilgrims have to post just to show they know more than the previous poster ( in short tactless & annoying) and the back & forth tirades make them seem like bickering siblings and then we just continue reading the rest of the forum. But isn't that what we ALL are SIBLINGS- brothers and sisters peregrinos in this great walk called the Camino de Santiago? I hope you change your mind but if you don't I pray you grace the Forum every now and then with your wise advice & knowledge. I will surely miss you.
Remy from Indianapolis

 

[daesdaemar]

Let me wax philosophical for a moment... All groups of people, be they our political leaders, teachers, clergy, doctors, or lawyers, have their good and bad apples. That is, sadly, a truth.
Don't let the bad ones chase you away. The good ones are generally in the greater number.
I deal with this by simply avoiding the threads posted by the bad apples.

 

[AJ]

I have always thought the best thing is not have as little moderation as possible since "we are all grown ups", right?
Ivar

I agree with this approach. Most (but perhaps not all) of us are grown ups.

 

[AJ]

Don't let the bad ones chase you away. The good ones are generally in the greater number.
I deal with this by simply avoiding the threads posted by the bad apples.

Exactly!

 

[tploomis]

Sadly after more than 5 years as a Forum member I feel it time to say "goodbye". The comments on some threads are becoming more and more bitter and divisive and are not, I feel, in line with the original ethos of the forum - "Where past pilgrims share, and future pilgrims learn". Most of my thoughts and observations are already around somewhere on the threads and as a favour to my equanimity (and bloodpressure!) I feel it time to withdraw, although I may 'log in' again at some point in the future.

With my Blessing on all pilgrims past and present
TerryB
aka Tio Tel

I appear to be a voice in the wilderness here, but I don't understand what the OP is talking about. I haven't noticed particular bitterness or personal attacks on this forum, other than a little gentle nudging when somebody, usually in the throes of pre-trip anxiety, is getting overly excited about some imagined hardship to come. I personally view that kind of response as helpful and grounding.

I would appreciate specific examples of a comment that is overly personal or bitter. I don't think they are out there, at least during my time on this forum (the last four months).

My opinion is that Ivar is doing a good job of moderating this forum and any further stifling of discussion would be counterproductive.

 

[lynnejohn]

TiaValeria and TerryB - I have enjoyed and valued the information and opinions in your posts. You have modeled a civil and respectful approach in this forum; a model that is not followed by all, but perhaps will be given a closer look now.
Taking a break is not a bad thing. If it feels right, it is right.
Buen camino, and hope to see you here again someday.

 

[lynnejohn]

I appear to be a voice in the wilderness here, but I don't understand what the OP is talking about. I haven't noticed particular bitterness or personal attacks on this forum, other than a little gentle nudging when somebody, usually in the throes of pre-trip anxiety, is getting overly excited about some imagined hardship to come. I personally view that kind of response as helpful and grounding.

I would appreciate specific examples of a comment that is overly personal or bitter. I don't think they are out there, at least during my time on this forum (the last four months).

My opinion is that Ivar is doing a good job of moderating this forum and any further stifling of discussion would be counterproductive.

The offensive comments are there. I don't think it would serve any useful purpose to reprint them and start pointing fingers.

 

[Tia Valeria]

I have logged in again briefly as I had e-mail alerts re PMs (to use the old name). Thank you for the kind thoughts posted above (this is the only page we are reading) and to those who have sent a PM. I receive e-mail notifications, but Terry does not so a brief plea...(he is not intentionally ignoring you). If you have PM'd Terry then please also send a PM to me, plus if you would like to keep in touch or receive a reply, with an e-mail address in your message. I don't know if just adding me to the Conversation will send me an e-mail notification or whether a new Conversation might be needed.
God bless you all
TerryB and Tia Valeria

 

[ksam]

Ok time for my tiny 2 cents! You will both be missed. I was absolutely stunned when I read that your leaving the Forum. We/It will be the less because of it. So here's to hoping it is only Hasta Luego. For what has been, Gracias.

 

[Pattii]

I don't know you well but from the goodbyes I have been reading I wish I had.
Sometimes passionate people disagree. There are ways to do this of course without attacking others but the idea of debated and heated discussion IF they are productive is not a bad thing. Sometimes it takes one to really reread before re commenting. I know that I am very outspoke with my own ideas but I want you to know I've never meant or intended to make someone feel so badly that they would leave. This is part of the community attitude I was talking about. Letting people know its an issue to you and then those of us who are more outspoken to consider your feelings and to try and be sensitive to them. So I am sorry ...very ...if my words/posts hurt you or disturbed you...it was NEVER intended to make someone leave.

I wish you well on your life Camino...the walk never ends...and I hope it takes you back to this Forum sometime soon

Blessings and peace for your lives...
Buen Camino

 

[Saint Mike II]

I am sorry to hear this. Thank you for all your contributions, and I hope to see you both back some time soon.

What can we do to make this forum place a better place? Ideas and suggestions are welcomed.

I have always thought the best thing is not have as little moderation as possible since "we are all grown ups", right? We could get stricter and ban users/delete posts more actively...

I have on my to-do list writing new forum rules, and I would also like to ask for volunteers to be moderators. Please get in touch by "Private Conversation" if you would like to be a moderator.

Greetings from a rainy day in Santiago,
Ivar

Hola Ivar - maybe one of the philosophies, or forum rules, should be "think twice" before you post. We (and here I include myself) often get too involved in the moment and forget that others might not understand what you are saying, or intended to say. For many of our pilgrim posters English is not their first language - it could be their third or even fourth. So I for one will definitely think twice - maybe leave it 24 hours - before posting a response that I disagree with.
It is sad to see our amigos leaving, but if it means that we improve the quality of the debates on the forum then maybe it will be a plus. Cheers

 

[billbennettoz]

I am sorry to hear this. Thank you for all your contributions, and I hope to see you both back some time soon.

What can we do to make this forum place a better place? Ideas and suggestions are welcomed.

I have always thought the best thing is not have as little moderation as possible since "we are all grown ups", right? We could get stricter and ban users/delete posts more actively... I have on my to-do list writing new forum rules. Ivar

Ivar, one of the things I stipulate on my blog is that people don't hide behind user-names. I find that the anonymity of user-names on a forum or blog allows some people to say things they wouldn't ordinarily say if we knew who they were. If things were more transparent.

Your forum is so big now, it's probably not possible - but I do feel it's the mask of a user-name that makes some people feel they can say whatever they like, without accountability.

Bill
(You'll notice my user name is my name, along with my country (billbennettoz) - and I always sign off with my name. I stand by all that I write.)

 

[Houlet]

As you can see I hide behind a user name and prefer it that way.

For those with common names like "John Smith" and living in big cities like London or New York using their full names is not a problem but I have a reasonably uncommon name and live in a very small community.

Hopefully I have never abused that anonimity and if I have, it was unintentional, and I apologise.

IMHO there are two major contributors to problems with electronic communications, firstly some writers are more aggressive in this medium, and secondly some readers can perceive aggression where none was intended.

I think we all need to consider both what we write as well as our interpretation of what others have written

 

[vicrev]

[quote="Houlet, post: 167621, member: 29649"

IMHO there are two major contributors to problems with electronic communications, firstly some writers are more aggressive in this medium, and secondly some readers can perceive aggression where none was intended.

I think we all need to consider both what we write as well as our interpretation of what others have written

[/QUOTE] I think this says a lot ..........................Vicrev

 

[colinPeter]

God Bless.

Colin

 

[wayfarer]

IMHO there are two major contributors to problems with electronic communications, firstly some writers are more aggressive in this medium, and secondly some readers can perceive aggression where none was intended.

I agree with this statement completely. If I have been guilty of the first part, I apologise wholeheartedly, and I would say I am sometimes guilty of the second part.
Lets hope we loose no more members because of this.

 

[Whalleyranger]

sometimes the posts can be very close to the bone & I often wonder why Rule 3 isn't enforced by the Moderators.

Just to re-enforce a point made above - if you see posts that you find offensive please report it to the moderators. We can't read every post on every thread but can and do take action when such posts come to our attention.

 

[dougfitz]

Ivar, one of the things I stipulate on my blog is that people don't hide behind user-names. I find that the anonymity of user-names on a forum or blog allows some people to say things they wouldn't ordinarily say if we knew who they were. If things were more transparent.

Your forum is so big now, it's probably not possible - but I do feel it's the mask of a user-name that makes some people feel they can say whatever they like, without accountability.

Bill
(You'll notice my user name is my name, along with my country (billbennettoz) - and I always sign off with my name. I stand by all that I write.)

The paradox, Bill, is that is easier to tell if someone is really using a made up name than it is to tell if someone if falsely using a real name.

Regards,

 

[vicrev]

No way would I give my real name,in an open forum,& am speaking from experience,I did once & had all sorts of harassment issues..........just not worth it as far as I'm concerned.....................keep smiling.......Vicrev

 

[Pattii]

With any forum what you glean from it should be what you need and what you don't need you leave behind. Its easy to take offence with typing and texting because you are not in the same room with the person...cannot hear inflections of the voice or read the persons body language. Having real names or fake names doesn't change the situation one bit. This is my real name...and I would be the same person if I were under another name. Censoring has to be something that is done carefully and by considering the source and the intent. If you are offended by what someone says it is your DUTY as part of the body of the forum to give a heads up to a mod to let them consider the post and either remove it or assure the person who has made the complaint or was offended that their observations and feelings about the post are duly noted. (sorry for the run on sentence my comma isn't working on my keyboard!)

The bottom line of any forum is that it is community. I have written this before in other posts. When one is in a community it is their obligation to look out for and consider the others that are in the community. We all have the responsibility of making sure we are not striking out in anger or trying to berate someone or letting our anger get the best of us. And we all have the responsibility to face each other directly if there is a problem. Communication ...think about that word then think about the word community.

It is sad when people have to leave a forum because of being hurt or upset. But despite the fact you may want to leave and that you might end up doing it anyway you still have an obligation to make sure people are aware of why. And personally I think one should be trying to correct the issue before they just give up and leave. I do think that if something had been said about the offensive post or person that perhaps you may have stayed. If you don't say anything all you have is the same thing you always have. For people to grow and flow sometimes we have to hear or do difficult things.

I said in a post on this thread that I was very sad that people were leaving. I felt I owed them an apology. I found out it wasn't me that was offending them...It relieved me and helped me not to worry. I honestly don't think anyone in this forum is inherently bad. I think we are passionate people that have a passion for something that induces change in us regardless if we have walked it or not. I think most people here ...if they were aware of being offensive (specifically through a note from the mod) would change things up a little.

I will say this again...the Camino starts with where we are. These issues on the forum being worked out and figured out to benefit everyone is a lesson in community and in my opinion part of the Camino lesson

love and blessings to all my sisters and brothers on this journey...

 

[David]

If this forum had an annual reward system then as far as I am concerned Pattii's post (above) would receive post of the year, if not the decade.

Bless you Pattii

Buen Camino

David

 

[David]

No way would I give my real name,in an open forum,& am speaking from experience,I did once & had all sorts of harassment issues..........just not worth it as far as I'm concerned.....................keep smiling.......Vicrev

Now I'm really intrigued ..... Rasputin? Borgia? Rumpelstiltskin? Bush? Caligula? Cruella deVille? .........

 

[thehappyhermit]

Like Houlet and Vicrev I would be very wary of having to give my name out for all the world to see. My user name says something about me and how I see myself.
I like Patti's latest post above and also Whalleyrangers. We don't know if posts were/are reported or conversations entered into, but it does seem that the Moderators are taking a more pro-active role maybe than previously, judging from comments on the thread about new rules (and related topics).
It looks good to me, but I haven't been around long, although I was 'lurking' for a while.
Let us hope 'lost friends' return sometime.
HH

 

[pilgrim b]

I am sorry to find out the sad news Terry and Tia, for I have learned from you both, I wish you weren't leaving us and that I could say something that would changed your minds. You are obviously loved by so many on this forum and there will be many here who you love too!
I do hope you will return soon, in the meantime memories of you both will remain in our hearts.

Love to both of you and Buen Camino
Anthony

 

[obinjatoo]

Yep, there is some dumb and useless stuff on this forum. I ignore a lot of it as I believe folks need to either do their own research or be a pilgrim and accept that we don't know something in advance. I had no idea what I was getting into when I set out and I was just fine. I learned as I went and I got a whole lot more to learn. I can hardly wait. Maybe you take it too seriously... Oh well, sorry to see you go...

 

[Whalleyranger]

Yep, there is some dumb and useless stuff on this forum. I ignore a lot of it as I believe folks need to either do their own research or be a pilgrim and accept that we don't know something in advance. I had no idea what I was getting into when I set out and I was just fine. I learned as I went and I got a whole lot more to learn. I can hardly wait. Maybe you take it too seriously... Oh well, sorry to see you go...

I'm the first to argue that people need to make their own mistakes and learn as they go along - I had to on my first Camino and that's why I why I carried a tent the entire way and never used it once. But that was before I knew about this forum. I don't think it's fair to dismiss someone's genuine question as dumb and useless. By all means feel free to ignore threads that you're not interested in, but if you do read a question that you could answer, I hope you'll take the time to help your fellow future pilgrim.

 

[Pattii]

If this forum had an annual reward system then as far as I am concerned Pattii's post (above) would receive post of the year, if not the decade.

Bless you Pattii

Buen Camino

David

Thanks David!...I really appreciate the tho't!

 

[Pattii]

Yep, there is some dumb and useless stuff on this forum. I ignore a lot of it as I believe folks need to either do their own research or be a pilgrim and accept that we don't know something in advance. I had no idea what I was getting into when I set out and I was just fine. I learned as I went and I got a whole lot more to learn. I can hardly wait. Maybe you take it too seriously... Oh well, sorry to see you go...

I personally think your post should have been started with "In my humble opinion". I don't think any question is ever stupid if the person asking is genuinely wanting to know. As far as doing ones own research is that not what this forum is for?...to find out more?...is that not research? Not every one is brave enough to set out into the unknown without a plan or a clue or all their ducks in a row. For some not taking a GPS or a phone is a massive leap of faith and good on them! And for some like me who was so adamant about NOT taking one the forum has been eye opening for me and my lesson is that those who HAVE walked it indeed know more about it than me. THAT is why we come to the forum. At least thats why I come here.

I think "dumb and useless" are relative terms based on the knowledge one already has. Offensive or mean comments are something else entirely. We all have a right to a voice here no matter if you can personally use the info or not.

This is in my humble opinion.

 

[Cejanus]

Yep, there is some dumb and useless stuff on this forum. I ignore a lot of it as I believe folks need to either do their own research or be a pilgrim and accept that we don't know something in advance. I had no idea what I was getting into when I set out and I was just fine. I learned as I went and I got a whole lot more to learn. I can hardly wait. Maybe you take it too seriously... Oh well, sorry to see you go...

Whilst you find this the case "obinjatoo" the forum for me has been a blessing. It is a place to share and to learn. I learnt heaps and it certainly made a difference for me stepping into the unknown on the other side of the world and doing something that I had never done before.
AND now my intellectually handicapped daughter will use the forum with my help to plan our Camino together. (Her first I might add.)

Amongst the many things I have learnt along the way is tolerance for those who are less able than myself. I thank the Good Lord for what he has given me and for the skills and knowledge he has given to others who are so willing to share this with me and others via this forum.
Blessings to all of you who share so freely and with the great intent of helping your fellow world citizens.
Muncho gratias.

 

[dougfitz]

... The bottom line of any forum is that it is community. I have written this before in other posts. When one is in a community it is their obligation to look out for and consider the others that are in the community. We all have the responsibility of making sure we are not striking out in anger or trying to berate someone or letting our anger get the best of us. And we all have the responsibility to face each other directly if there is a problem. Communication ...think about that word then think about the word community. ...

Patti expressed some noble sentiments in this post. But when I see really heavyweight words like duty, obligation and responsibility dragged out, I wonder how practical this is in an on-line forum. Ivar and the moderators have a simple set of rules for the forum, and these three words don't appear anywhere in them. I don't mind people having noble aspirations, but I don't know how these would be moderated. In contrast, the current rules appear to me to be quite capable of being moderated.

Regards,

 

[stevenjarvis]

Whilst I broadly agree with Patti's sentiments, I also identify with dougfitz and his comments concerning noble apirations. However, Patti commented
"It is sad when people have to leave a forum because of being hurt or upset." This is not the case, people only have to leave when removed by a moderator. As with many decisions in life people may choose ( to leave ) and that is what happened here. As others have said I wish it weren't so and sincerely hope Terry and Tia return to participate in the forum in future, and urge anyone " hurt or upset." to address their concerns to those responsible and / or the moderators.

 

[LTfit]

Patti expressed some noble sentiments in this post. But when I see really heavyweight words like duty, obligation and responsibility dragged out, I wonder how practical this is in an on-line forum. Ivar and the moderators have a simple set of rules for the forum, and these three words don't appear anywhere in them. I don't mind people having noble aspirations, but I don't know how these would be moderated. In contrast, the current rules appear to me to be quite capable of being moderated.
Regards,

I think that you are missing the point. IMHO she is not asking us, as moderators, but rather that we all, as members of this forum, do our utmost to make this a safe place for all. And heck, there is nothing wrong with having "noble aspirations"!

I will say this again...the Camino starts with where we are. These issues on the forum being worked out and figured out to benefit everyone is a lesson in community and in my opinion part of the Camino lesson

Hear, hear! (as a forum member and moderator)

 

[stevenjarvis]

LTfit my concern is that your definition of a "safe place for all" may encompass the notion that any of us have the right not to be offended, upset or hurt. We don't. If we feel that way, then we make our own decisions and act accordingly. That could be to discuss the matter with those that may have caused us to feel that way, or resort to appealing to the moderators, or , as we have seen , to leave.

To be clear, my preference is that members are kind to each other, and the forum gains not loses members.

 

[dougfitz]

I think that you are missing the point. IMHO she is not asking us, as moderators, but rather that we all, as members of this forum, do our utmost to make this a safe place for all.

I could say exactly the same about your view. You don't seem to appreciate my concern that the extract that I quoted is not so much a request as a demand for a certain type of behaviour. If that behaviour is expected, then in an on-line forum it has to be moderated.

Let me give you another example, "But despite the fact you may want to leave and that you might end up doing it anyway you still have an obligation to make sure people are aware of why." Do we? Of course not - it's just not so. But the words used presents this as an 'obligation' that we have. That is quite different from suggesting that it might be polite, or informative, or something to explain why we might be leaving.

And heck, there is nothing wrong with having "noble aspirations"!

I think I said that. You appear to be suggesting that I expressed a different view, which could be seen as mis-representing my point. Let me repeat what I said in my post so that it is clear - I don't mind people having noble aspirations.

What I do mind is using words like duty, responsibility and obligation - words that express a compulsion to behave in a certain way. I feel none of this is appropriate to this forum, where above all things, we contribute voluntarily, not because we have some duty but because we have some desire to help.

I sense @patti would like the forum to be 'safe'. We could probably all say that. But safe doesn't necessarily mean that your position won't be tested by others who don't share your point of view. We don't have to be appeasers, liking everything we see without testing its sensibility. That would make this a terrible place to be where no-one learns anything.

Regards,

 

[LTfit]

stevejarvis: no reason to be concerned. And I too hope that members feel free enough to address their concerns with one another either publicly on the forum or in a PM to respective parties and/or moderators before deciding to leave. But that is ultimately their choice.

It would appear that we may have a different definition of "safe".

In an earlier thread on forum rules I posted the following:
"The guidelines do not appear to be, as such, the problem. We are. There is no need to reinvent the wheel.
Be helpful.
Be patient.
Be civil.
Be thoughtful.
Be kind.
Be compassionate"

I wrote this before becoming a moderator but I still stand behind it because it makes simple sense to me as a person and as a member of this forum community.

A "safe" environment to me necessitates being decent to one another (gosh I hope that I don't have to define decent). Following the above "guidelines" is a start. It does not imply that we have to agree with anything or anyone.

Patti posted her opinion. We may agree or disagree with her choice of words or with the entire post. That's fine. But again I don't see anywhere that she requests or requires moderators to enforce her opinion.

And Doug: I was not implying anything, only agreeing that noble intentions are wonderful things .

 

[stevenjarvis]

stevejarvis: no reason to be concerned. And I too hope that members feel free enough to address their concerns with one another either publicly on the forum or in a PM to respective parties and/or moderators before deciding to leave. But that is ultimately their choice.

It would appear that we may have a different definition of "safe".
.

LTfit , I will decide what concerns me, thank you.

 

[Saint Mike II]

The guidelines do not appear to be, as such, the problem. We are. There is no need to reinvent the wheel.
"Be helpful; Be patient; Be civil; Be thoughtful; Be kind; Be compassionate."

These were the words LTfit used (or quoted from his own post) in the post above and I think they express (IMHO) what we should all be doing when we post to the forum. Because, I believe, that is what is principal purpose is - to be helpful; to be patient with those who are a bit lost; to always be civil ( a smile uses a lot less muscles than a frown!); be thoughtful - after-all are our posts meant to help a fellow pilgrim?; be compassionate - wasn't this one of the guidelines of St James' own leader?
For whilst Ivar (and his now expanded band of moderators) do a great job, the truth is that we (the members) are the forum (I think I am paraphrasing Patti here!). So it is our collective responsibility to follow the forum guidelines and also those of LTfit and not be the problem. Whilst we are entitled to an opinion about a particular issue - remember once its posted (unless deleted by a moderator or Ivar) and its here for eternity.

 

[Susannafromsweden]

Ok I will lock this thread for a while, and let Ivar decide if it should be opened again.